Large Caravan TARE weights

[vbrab]

Have been in katherine NT for past 4 months and probably get to see the biggest fleet of road travellers anywhere passing through, many with large caravans.
It seems all state police intend to start targeting caravanners for their tow ball weights and total caravan weight being towed.
(Some rigs did look a bit scary with the front wheel almost off the ground, or the back of the vehicle almost touching the road.)

Just wondering what the average tandem (dual axle) caravans of 5.5 to 6 meters would be at TARE weight?
Have noticed that most seem to be about 1900- 2300kgs (TARE).
Is that about the average TARE weight of a large caravan?
Australian design rules allow for minimum 10% at towball, and evidently prefer <15% for "safety", which might start to put a loaded caravan of that size beyond the allowed towing capacity of many vehicles (possibly except Land Rovers). Which is likely why the pilce have announce a plan to target caravan travellers.

My interest is that having built a 6 meter enclosed trailer totally of aluminium with a TARE of 1175kgs (wasn't intended as a caravan because it runs tri-axle, which adds 200kgs), I'm wondering if switching to all aluminium construction for caravans (chassis N' all), might start to look like a viable option, especially as vehicles become lighter (as in the new Disco), and as the police start to crack down on overall/towball weight.

Any thoughts on that?

[trout1105]

I am pretty sure it isn't the vans themselves that are heavy, It's more likely that its all l the junk people tend to try and cram into their vans that is causing the problems.

[dirvine]

It is hard to look at a van and know its tare. Generally single axle caravans are 18' or less in body length. They can range from 1600kgs to 2300kgs tare weight. Mine is 16' off road and tare is 2100kg with 400kg load so all up 2500kgs. Tandums are over 18' and most manufacturers make vans upto 23' in length. These can range from a Tare as low as 1800kg upto about 3200kg. At the top end that means in many cases the van is heavier than the tow vehicle especially if its a twin cab ute, and that in most experts opinion is dangerous.

[Homestar]

I am pretty sure it isn't the vans themselves that are heavy, It's more likely that its all l the junk people tend to try and cram into their vans that is causing the problems.

Vans are soooo much heavier than they used to be - sometimes with good reason, but I think many people don't really consider what they'll actually be doing with said van. Everyone seems to go for big, heavy 'off road' vans which weigh heaps because the chassis are built like brick dunnys. All well and good if you actually will take it down dirt roads, etc on a regular basis but most simply don't and end up in caravan parks each night. Add to this is that everyone wants every mod con, nick nack and new shiny thing on the market in there $100K monsters which again adds weight.

Go back to the mid 70's and vans weighed bugger all - and there was bugger all in them apart from beds and a sink with a hand pump, but they were half the weight of modern vans. Roads were far worse and despite them being made out of very light materials including the chassis, most stood up to what the average punter would do with them.

There's still 100's of thousands of these old vans out there in various states of repair - most ending their roving life as on site vans in caravan parks around the country, but there is a growing wave of people who see these old vans as viable alternatives and many are now being restored and put back on the road.

Those that know me know I'm one of these people. Yes, I like the classic look inside and out and I get why people don't, and that's fine but my 19' van weighs 1,500kg fully loaded and 300 of that is what I've added as extras - batteries, solar, ensuite, etc. It's tare weight from the factory was 1,200Kg - I'd like to see modern 19 footer these days come close to that...

[pop058]

Where in the ADRs does it mandate a minimum of 10% ball weight ?

[Wilyms]

Where in the ADRs does it mandate a minimum of 10% ball weight ?

The ADRs are about the technical specifications towbars have to meet to be legal in Australia

The vehicle or tow bar manufacturers have to specify tow ball down load AND max trailer mass (and GCM) all of which can impact what you can tow (and get booked for exceeding!)

[pop058]

Where in the ADRs does it mandate a minimum of 10% ball weight ?


The ADRs are about the technical specifications towbars have to meet to be legal in Australia

The vehicle or tow bar manufacturers have to specify tow ball down load AND max trailer mass (and GCM) all of which can impact what you can tow (and get booked for exceeding!)

I think you missed my point. The OP stated the ADRs require a 10% minimum ball weight. ( which I do not agree with BTW). I was asking where this is written ?

[Wilyms]

I think you missed my point. The OP stated the ADRs require a 10% minimum ball weight. ( which I do not agree with BTW). I was asking where this is written ?


I’m pretty sure the ADRs do not specify 10%
I’ve just skim read the ones I thought applied and did not see a reference

The 10% rule is more a guide relating to stability of a pig trailer and the tow vehicle.

This is a good article (I think) on this enormously complicated issue which is not helped by both vehicle and caravan sales people and potential owners having no clue about all the various parameters involved

Everything you need to know about towing heavy trailers | Practical Motoring (https://practicalmotoring.com.au/car-advice/everything-you-need-to-know-about-towing-heavy-trailers/)

Also, going back to the OP - there are a few lightweight vans around such as Bailey. The are called Euro vans and have low towball weight because in Europe people tow with, gasp, sedans and hatches and not massive 4x4s to go from one caravan park to another.
Yes in Oz we have to option to go genuinely off-road to camp and therefore there is that niche market, but from what I’ve seen not many take their up to $200k tow package anywhere except up a few dirt roads.

[PhilipA]

IMHO the reasons that modern vans are heavy is that public demand has made things like ceramic toilets, ceramic wash basins, glass splashbacks, air conditioning,large fridges ,etc seen to be desirable by the buyers . Add 2x100litre tanks and that 200Kg is added to the tare in real life.

Friends of ours bought such a van and then found ,whoops! my Prado will not tow it as it is over 2500KG, so they bought a Colorado to tow it. Lucky they have lots of money.

Also there is a demand for immense chassis on off road vans. I would love to see what finite item analysis would make of the chassis on off road vans. but if they were lightened then people probably would not buy them, as they would "look weak".

A 2003 Coromal Seka offroad 17 foot weighs about 1400Kg tare and they are regarded as one of the most reliable vans on the market , with their aluminium frame. It just amazes me that modern vans are so heavy.
I could sound sexist here and say that IMHO , wives/partners etc demand these things if they are going to slum it in a van.
Luckily my wife is happy with our 750Kg tare Camp-o-matic.

Regards Philip A

[Mick_Marsh]

The ADRs are about the technical specifications towbars have to meet to be legal in Australia

The vehicle or tow bar manufacturers have to specify tow ball down load AND max trailer mass (and GCM) all of which can impact what you can tow (and get booked for exceeding!)
As pop058 says, Which ADR?
Is it the same one that stipulates I must use rated shackles on my pigtails? (Still trying to find that one.)

[Wilyms]

As pop058 says, Which ADR?
Is it the same one that stipulates I must use rated shackles on my pigtails? (Still trying to find that one.)

See above
I’m not familiar with the ADRs so wasn’t 100% confident to dismiss straight away!

I have two daughters so pigtails means an entirely different thing to me [tonguewink]

[Mick_Marsh]

I have two daughters so pigtails means an entirely different thing to me [tonguewink]

And I know a pig farmer.

[pop058]

Most people ( me included) are not up to speed on ADRs, yet many claim alsorts of wonderful rules. 10% ball weight, rated shackles, brake and load requirements, etc. To be clear, I do not have any issues with any of the rules, I just want to see them in print and not myth and hearsay.

[Wilyms]

Most people ( me included) are not up to speed on ADRs, yet many claim alsorts of wonderful rules. 10% ball weight, rated shackles, brake and load requirements, etc. To be clear, I do not have any issues with any of the rules, I just want to see them in print and not myth and hearsay.

The general consumer does not need to be concerned with the details of the ADRs.
That’s for the manufacturers of the said product - whether it’s the entire vehicle or accessories such as bull bars and towbars

People are quoting ADR when they actually mean (state) Regulations OR the Australian Standards

The owner/driver is entirely responsible for the correct use of the end product and that’s where things get tricky.
The first level of this is the legislation and regulations (road rules of you like) in the state of registration (ie to be road worthy). This includes the limits placed by the vehicle manufacturers and the accessory manufacturers.

The second is the road rules in the state you are operating in.

These can can be mutually exclusive and vary wildly state to state.

[donh54]

The 10% towball weight "rule" is not actually a rule. It is a recommendation only. In Europe the recommendation is only 5%, hence the reason most car makers don't offer European spec towbars on vehicles for the Australian market.
Many caravan makers are focused on a price point, and aluminium is dearer than other framing materials. Also, the inherent flex in an alloy frame would make it harder to successfully glue the panels to the frame. It's all about the cheapest materials to use, and the lowest skills requirements for the assembly workers, (at least in the price-competitive end of the market).

[pop058]

The general consumer does not need to be concerned with the details of the ADRs.
That’s for the manufacturers of the said product - whether it’s the entire vehicle or accessories such as bull bars and towbars

People are quoting ADR when they actually mean (state) Regulations OR the Australian Standards

The owner/driver is entirely responsible for the correct use of the end product and that’s where things get tricky.
The first level of this is the legislation and regulations (road rules of you like) in the state of registration (ie to be road worthy). This includes the limits placed by the vehicle manufacturers and the accessory manufacturers.

The second is the road rules in the state you are operating in.

These can can be mutually exclusive and vary wildly state to state.


" The general consumer does not need to be concerned with the details..."

" The owner/driver is entirely responcible ....."

Can't have it both ways. Yes the operator is responsible so they need to know the ( relevant) details. That is why I asked. When people start quoting rules and ADRs and they ( the rules ) cannot be found in print, the myths just keep going round and round. I would hazard a guess and say equipment retailers are pretty high on the list.

[Wilyms]

" The general consumer does not need to be concerned with the details..."

" The owner/driver is entirely responcible ....."

Can't have it both ways. Yes the operator is responsible so they need to know the ( relevant) details. That is why I asked. When people start quoting rules and ADRs and they ( the rules ) cannot be found in print, the myths just keep going round and round. I would hazard a guess and say equipment retailers are pretty high on the list.

Thats called quoting out of context Pop!!

The ADRs and state Regs are very different beasts. Do you care that your D2 is complianced under ADR xx and a new D5 is complianced under ADR zz ??
Not one little bit

Do any of us know what that actually even means? Probably not

But do you need to know about hook turns if you are in Victoria but registered in Qld?
Yes you do

Do you need to know that maximum towing speed is different in different states?
You bet

Do you need to know if your tow rig is speed limited by the manufacturer if you tow at full GCM?
Also yes

Do any of the above have anything to do with ADR?
Nope, but everything to do with state laws and regs and the handbook.

Absolutely agree that myths are perpetuating and that people making money from them are at fault.
Lets looks at fishing rod and LED light bars sold with mouns to make it easy to mount on top of the bull bar. Totally against the regs but it’s up to end user to be aware of the details.

Even roof mounted light bars are ‘permitted’ in the ADRs but each jurisdiction has a (different) view.
The list goes on....

The ADRs are being blamed for things they don’t even cover because they are hard to understand and a good way for people to bluff others.

[pop058]

Not out of context at all. I did say relevant details of which you listed a few. Thanks.

My point is that the original poster of this thread stated that ( like the rated shankle myth) ball weight was mandated in ADRs. My question was/ is " where is that written down " in print, be it ADRs, regs, rules, anywhere actually ?.

[Wilyms]

Not out of context at all. I did say relevant details of which you listed a few. Thanks.

My point is that the original poster of this thread stated that ( like the rated shankle myth) ball weight was mandated in ADRs. My question was/ is " where is that written down " in print, be it ADRs, regs, rules, anywhere actually ?.

I did forget the wink emoji.

Best I can do for Qld road users is this

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/-/media/Safety/Vehicle-standards-and-modifications/Loads-and-towing/Safe-towing/Safe_towing_guide.pdf?la=en

disclaimer - this is the dilution of everything from ADR to legislation to regulation to road rules so as to be a user friendly guide

For me, the use of ‘guide only’ in relation to the ‘connection of safety chain to towbar’ section via shackles says is it of the lowest order and thus won’t be specified in any document but needs to be fit for purpose

Same applies to the 10% TBM myth as it is not specifically mentioned
A search for results on the ADR web page had nil relevant results.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

omg!! I cannot just cannot survive withoutout my marble bidet,, and i dont care what the legal requirements are Dear,,,
you'll be asking me to go without my walk-in robe next...


and to the OP,, the answer to ALL these questions is one of these-- [wink11]
https://www.hsv.com.au/images/see/silverado/Silverado-Gallery-1.jpg

[rick130]

omg!! I cannot just cannot survive withoutout my marble bidet,, and i dont care what the legal requirements are Dear,,,
you'll be asking me to go without my walk-in robe next...


and to the OP,, the answer to ALL these questions is one of these-- [wink11]
https://www.hsv.com.au/images/see/silverado/Silverado-Gallery-1.jpgYes, well Pedro, you do need somewhere to hang your smoking jacket. [emoji6]

[Pedro_The_Swift]

this one?
https://2lth8w1uv77536l8d72pqh10-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/1939-clark-gable-smoking-jacket.jpg

[Mr smokey]

Being a caravanner, one of the things that create the most discussion/advice/vitriol on the vanning forums is the issue of weights. Along with wdh, bloody rated shackles. Quotes often misplaced or incorrect from State rules, ADR’s etc. everyone seems to know a bloke whose second cousin’s grandmother was pulled over for a weight check and made to park beside the road until they offloaded excess weight. That’s why when I did my research for an appropriate tug vehicle I settled on the Disco. Overengineered for our 2800kg (weighed) 250kg downball weight, 25ft van. Plenty out there that buy a dual cab because the sales pitch says “it can tow 3.5 tonne” without taking gvm into account. From my understanding, the 10% is the guide manufacturers use. Total Weights NEVER seem to be accurate from the manufacturers and then some new owners whack on tackboxes, extra water tanks, weight on the rear end where it wasn’t designed and bike racks etc etc.

Don’t talk to me about the arguments over wdh’s and Disco’s. [bawl]

Trevor

[rodg]

[QUOTE=vbrab;2836249]Have been in katherine NT for past 4 months and probably get to see the biggest fleet of road travellers anywhere passing through, many with large caravans.
It seems all state police intend to start targeting caravanners for their tow ball weights and total caravan weight being towed.
(Some rigs did look a bit scary with the front wheel almost off the ground, or the back of the vehicle almost touching the road.)

Just wondering what the average tandem (dual axle) caravans of 5.5 to 6 meters would be at TARE weight?
Have noticed that most seem to be about 1900- 2300kgs (TARE).
Is that about the average TARE weight of a large caravan?
Australian design rules allow for minimum 10% at towball, and evidently prefer <15% for "safety", which might start to put a loaded caravan of that size beyond the allowed towing capacity of many vehicles (possibly except Land Rovers). Which is likely why the pilce have announce a plan to target caravan travellers.

My interest is that having built a 6 meter enclosed trailer totally of aluminium with a TARE of 1175kgs (wasn't intended as a caravan because it runs tri-axle, which adds 200kgs), I'm wondering if switching to all aluminium construction for caravans (chassis N' all), might start to look like a viable option, especially as vehicles become lighter (as in the new Disco), and as the police start to crack down on overall/towball weight.

Hi a week before Christmas 2017 at Yarragon on the Princes Hyw. Vic. the police were pulling up all caravans and checking tow ball capacity and tare on all vans and there were quite a few over the limit allowed. Some people appeared to be quite ignorant of the fact that there was a limit on there towing vehicle to the weight on the tow ball.

[Rick Fischer]

I



Also there is a demand for immense chassis on off road vans. I would love to see what finite item analysis would make of the chassis on off road vans. but if they were lightened then people probably would not buy them, as they would "look weak".



Regards Philip A


Most caravan and trailer builders wouldn't know how to do a structural "stress" analysis on their structures, never mind a "fatigue" analysis, as for a "finite element" design, Well??? .......................and as far as I know there is no regulatory requirement to provide such design analysis to the regulatory authorities.

Cheers

RF

[Meccles]

Was at the Brisbane caravan and camping show recently and there were heaps of dual axle vans there all in 2500kg -2800 kg tare weight region. All big chassis etc etc. did overhear some people interested in buying being told that “no your Prado can’t tow this”. But lots out there and lots of space to fill with more crap/weight. Seemed the emphasis was on size/bang for buck. What I thought were “real” campers the Complete Campsite/AOR/Mountain Trail was very small part of the show. These were all significantly lighter, more expensive and only people that appeared interested were not your first time buyer or average punter. I reckon many are in for a world of hurt so many we saw and heard had little to no towing experience and were leaping into 23’ tandem caravans cause they could get one for 60+k as opposed to a Complete Campsite much smaller less frills but 100k.

[DirtDigger]

Have been in katherine NT for past 4 months and probably get to see the biggest fleet of road travellers anywhere passing through, many with large caravans.
It seems all state police intend to start targeting caravanners for their tow ball weights and total caravan weight being towed.
(Some rigs did look a bit scary with the front wheel almost off the ground, or the back of the vehicle almost touching the road.)

Just wondering what the average tandem (dual axle) caravans of 5.5 to 6 meters would be at TARE weight?
Have noticed that most seem to be about 1900- 2300kgs (TARE).
Is that about the average TARE weight of a large caravan?
Australian design rules allow for minimum 10% at towball, and evidently prefer <15% for "safety", which might start to put a loaded caravan of that size beyond the allowed towing capacity of many vehicles (possibly except Land Rovers). Which is likely why the pilce have announce a plan to target caravan travellers.

My interest is that having built a 6 meter enclosed trailer totally of aluminium with a TARE of 1175kgs (wasn't intended as a caravan because it runs tri-axle, which adds 200kgs), I'm wondering if switching to all aluminium construction for caravans (chassis N' all), might start to look like a viable option, especially as vehicles become lighter (as in the new Disco), and as the police start to crack down on overall/towball weight.

Any thoughts on that?

I think 10% TBW was an older recommendation and possibly still is for single axle Vans. Guide I've read is 7 to 15% of Tare/loaded.
My Jayco My17 Silverline Outback 21' compliance plate states that it is 155kg empty and the tare is 2791kg. ATM 3266 -- FYI.

I would have liked to have been offered an alloy chassis instead of Jayco 6" and galv'd chassis. Bro in Law's new Bush Tracker alloy chassis saved about 400kg compared to steel version option.
1 reason for changing from my D4 to me Disco series 5 - performance and fuel saving VERY noticeable with alloy chassis.
With my previous D4 - tare 2500kg towing a smaller 18 ft Elite single axle tare 2200kg although good, the effort towing a 2791kg tare dual axle van was lot easier- stable. More so than I thought it might have been (the other way round). Towing the Elite taller off-roader used a small margin MORE fuel than the lower, more stream lined and smooth front Silverline for same driving conditions. How much better if it was lighter.

[Mr smokey]

[QUOTE=vbrab;2836249]

Hi a week before Christmas 2017 at Yarragon on the Princes Hyw. Vic. the police were pulling up all caravans and checking tow ball capacity and tare on all vans and there were quite a few over the limit allowed. Some people appeared to be quite ignorant of the fact that there was a limit on there towing vehicle to the weight on the tow ball.

There was also a check point at Numerella a while back organised by TOG, CMCA and a couple of others as an education process. The results were interesting. A large percentage of vanners slightly overweight and, as mentioned, most had no idea of what weight they were towing. All except for a couple of gross defects were allowed to tootle on their way with more info than they had. A very proactive and useful approach.

trevor

[Homestar]

Yes, VicPol and Vicroads have both said they will be conducting more of these proactive days over the coming years to help educate Vanners about weights and safe towing. They also said they weren't looking to book people for minor infringements and time soon which I think is a good approach.

[vbrab]

Have also heard of some who bought camper trailers, only to find that they were actually rated beyongd the towing capacity of their Jeeps. (As my friends did....well they did buy a Jeep.)
The camper was Chinese Made and I towed it back up country for them.
When hooking it up I reckon it was about 30% on the tow ball. What a piece of ***T!



IMHO the reasons that modern vans are heavy is that public demand has made things like ceramic toilets, ceramic wash basins, glass splashbacks, air conditioning,large fridges ,etc seen to be desirable by the buyers . Add 2x100litre tanks and that 200Kg is added to the tare in real life.

Friends of ours bought such a van and then found ,whoops! my Prado will not tow it as it is over 2500KG, so they bought a Colorado to tow it. Lucky they have lots of money.

Also there is a demand for immense chassis on off road vans. I would love to see what finite item analysis would make of the chassis on off road vans. but if they were lightened then people probably would not buy them, as they would "look weak".

A 2003 Coromal Seka offroad 17 foot weighs about 1400Kg tare and they are regarded as one of the most reliable vans on the market , with their aluminium frame. It just amazes me that modern vans are so heavy.
I could sound sexist here and say that IMHO , wives/partners etc demand these things if they are going to slum it in a van.
Luckily my wife is happy with our 750Kg tare Camp-o-matic.

Regards Philip A

[slug_burner]

Most caravan and trailer builders wouldn't know how to do a structural "stress" analysis on their structures, never mind a "fatigue" analysis, as for a "finite element" design, Well??? .......................and as far as I know there is no regulatory requirement to provide such design analysis to the regulatory authorities.

Cheers

RF

The reason for authorities not requesting technical proofs are: they don’t have anyone or enough of the people required to understand the outcomes/content of technical reports, authorities don’t want to have the responsibility for accepting technical information. Short of extended testing I can’t see how else anyone could claim to build something suitable for purpose other than by technical analysis or by sticking to standard documented best practice by recognised/accepted authorities.

Back to the OP topic, I think towball weight is what will get most people. I have a towbar stamped as good for 4 tonne atm yet only 150 kg Towball down mass. I think those values are more suited to a dog than pig trailer. Ok for farm trailers but their are few dog configuration caravans. As soon as we get over the 1500-2000 kg atm we should be seriously considering the adequacy of our tow vehicles and certainly pay close attention to changing our driving style.

[weeds]

Most people ( me included) are not up to speed on ADRs, yet many claim alsorts of wonderful rules. 10% ball weight, rated shackles, brake and load requirements, etc. To be clear, I do not have any issues with any of the rules, I just want to see them in print and not myth and hearsay.

Some research online and you will probably find most of what you mentioned in government websites.

10% is the only one that you probably won’t find a reference to.

[weeds]

Thats called quoting out of context Pop!!

.

Pop states it the operator responsibility

Pop also states he doesn’t know what a myth and what fact and asks for references

I assume pop doesn’t tow....given pops statement it the operators responsibility.

Not sure why pop is involved in the thread....sounding like a cracked record.

[weeds]

Have been in katherine NT for past 4 months and probably get to see the biggest fleet of road travellers anywhere passing through, many with large caravans.
It seems all state police intend to start targeting caravanners for their tow ball weights and total caravan weight being towed.
(Some rigs did look a bit scary with the front wheel almost off the ground, or the back of the vehicle almost touching the road.)

Just wondering what the average tandem (dual axle) caravans of 5.5 to 6 meters would be at TARE weight?
Have noticed that most seem to be about 1900- 2300kgs (TARE).
Is that about the average TARE weight of a large caravan?
Australian design rules allow for minimum 10% at towball, and evidently prefer <15% for "safety", which might start to put a loaded caravan of that size beyond the allowed towing capacity of many vehicles (possibly except Land Rovers). Which is likely why the pilce have announce a plan to target caravan travellers.

My interest is that having built a 6 meter enclosed trailer totally of aluminium with a TARE of 1175kgs (wasn't intended as a caravan because it runs tri-axle, which adds 200kgs), I'm wondering if switching to all aluminium construction for caravans (chassis N' all), might start to look like a viable option, especially as vehicles become lighter (as in the new Disco), and as the police start to crack down on overall/towball weight.

Any thoughts on that?

My thoughts

I couldn’t direct you online documents, when I build my last camper all I did was research what QLD required to have it registered, that was a simple process. Apparently you need brakes on a trailer weigh over 750kg

I actually registered the trailer before it was completed....than discovered it at out on weight during construction

I didn’t really consider tow ball weight during the build. From memory I was under 10%

I fitted a custom axle with electric over hydraulic brakes on a trailer that was registered with an ATM < 750kg

I have no idea what the average rate of caravans in a set range is, there is enough comments inline suggesting the manufacturers displayed weights are generally incorrect which is why I would weigh it myself during he fitout and as I roll out of town fully loaded.

I built it all out of steel, much easier than aluminum for me.

There are manufacturers running ally chassis and more will follow....

The comments about caravans being heavier than the tow vehicles isn’t ideal.....it what it is, up to the individual how close to the limit he wants to go

Every trip I headed south I would run my combination over the weigh bridge at work.....depending on which tug, one I would exceed rear axle limit and the other exceed front axle limit.......oh and always exceed the trailer ATM. Don’t reckon too many punters would check weights that often, whilst I knew my weights I didn’t adjust anything, hell I was already holding up the holiday as it takes time to weigh all three axles and tow Val.

When I sold the trailer I deregistered it as a 750 and re-registered it with an ATM 1400kg.

I to suspect a good number of combinations exceedGVM, ATM, GCM and individual axle weights.

Sure there seems to be more roadside checks which I think is a good thing, helps educated the uneducated. I also think think any state has commuted funds and resources to do a blanket roll out. If they actually fined owners and pulled them off the road immediately the few blitzes they do would make an impact pretty quick across the state.

[mick88]

Yes, VicPol and Vicroads have both said they will be conducting more of these proactive days over the coming years to help educate Vanners about weights and safe towing. They also said they weren't looking to book people for minor infringements and time soon which I think is a good approach.

Earlier this year when we were looking for a motorhome to purchase and obviously test driving several locally, I spoke to a Vicroads Officer regarding vehicle weights, towing weights, etc. My reason for this was that I had driven several smaller sized vehicles which had been "reclassified" to a GVM of 4490kg and run them over our local Vicroads weighbridge and found that they exceeded their GVM. I was curious to know the reason for the need to reclassify these vehicle to a lower GVM, which mainly seems so be that they can be driven on a car licence, negating the need for "Heavy Licence" upgrade. The Vicroads Officer I spoke with told me that the fines for being overweight in a vehicle under 4490kg are extremely exy as opposed to the fines for being overweight in a Heavy Vehicle.


Regarding Shackles: This is from Vicroads site.

Do I need a load-rated shackle to connect my safety chain/cable?

Whilst using a load-rated shackle isn’t mandatory, it’s a good idea to choose a shackle to suit your trailer and towing vehicle.
Suitable shackles include:


shackles supplied as original equipment by the original vehicle manufacturer (e.g. Ford, Holden, Toyota etc.)
shackles supplied by an original equipment tow bar manufacturer
shackles that are rated and compliant with Australian Standard AS 2741 “Shackles” or other equivalent recognised standards AND the break load limit of the shackle is rated at least 1.5 times greater than the Aggregate Trailer Mass (ATM) of the trailer (see below for example).


Regarding Weight: Also from Vicroads site.

Once you have loaded your caravan, its weight should not exceed:


the maximum weight recommended by the caravan manufacturer
the towing limits recommended by the car's manufacturer, or
the weight rating of the towbar.

Some laws can be different from State to State. If you are travelling interstate with your caravan, check individual State or Territory regulations before you leave.

[vbrab]

I quite agree with your comments about possibility of the actual weight of many trailers being way above what they are listed as, as well as towball weights being over what is recommended for the towing vehicle or what manufacturers say they are. (Or it may be that many towing need to get new rear suspensions from the way they appear to be dragging down at rear.)
main concern for me is that these people are cruising the highways and could easily become unmanageable under advrese conditions, impacting on other road users.
So bring on the roadside checks, and only those who are outside the regulations need worry.


My thoughts

I couldn’t direct you online documents, when I build my last camper all I did was research what QLD required to have it registered, that was a simple process. Apparently you need brakes on a trailer weigh over 750kg

I actually registered the trailer before it was completed....than discovered it at out on weight during construction

I didn’t really consider tow ball weight during the build. From memory I was under 10%

I fitted a custom axle with electric over hydraulic brakes on a trailer that was registered with an ATM < 750kg

I have no idea what the average rate of caravans in a set range is, there is enough comments inline suggesting the manufacturers displayed weights are generally incorrect which is why I would weigh it myself during he fitout and as I roll out of town fully loaded.

I built it all out of steel, much easier than aluminum for me.

There are manufacturers running ally chassis and more will follow....

The comments about caravans being heavier than the tow vehicles isn’t ideal.....it what it is, up to the individual how close to the limit he wants to go

Every trip I headed south I would run my combination over the weigh bridge at work.....depending on which tug, one I would exceed rear axle limit and the other exceed front axle limit.......oh and always exceed the trailer ATM. Don’t reckon too many punters would check weights that often, whilst I knew my weights I didn’t adjust anything, hell I was already holding up the holiday as it takes time to weigh all three axles and tow Val.

When I sold the trailer I deregistered it as a 750 and re-registered it with an ATM 1400kg.

I to suspect a good number of combinations exceedGVM, ATM, GCM and individual axle weights.

Sure there seems to be more roadside checks which I think is a good thing, helps educated the uneducated. I also think think any state has commuted funds and resources to do a blanket roll out. If they actually fined owners and pulled them off the road immediately the few blitzes they do would make an impact pretty quick across the state.

[pop058]

Pop states it the operator responsibility

Pop agreed it is the operators responsibility

Pop also states he doesn’t know what a myth and what fact and asks for references

Pop has a fair idea about the myths and was requesting factual printed information

I assume pop doesn’t tow....given pops statement it the operators responsibility.

You could not be further from the truth if you tried

Not sure why pop is involved in the thread....sounding like a cracked record.

I, like everyone else on the forum can be involved if they choose to be, no permissions or explanations required [thumbsupbig]

[101RRS]

In 1971 my family of 5 went of a caravan trip - 16ft Franklin towed by the Valiant - we all fitted in and van probably weight about 1400kg loaded up and even with 5 in the car the car was not overloaded.

Fast forward to 2018 my brother has just bought a 22' Lotus Trooper which with his add ons comes in at around 3.5t and has every mod con you could imagine - more luxurious than his house - towed by his current model 4.5TDV8 Toyota 200 series sahara - with the van hooked up, the fat couple sitting in the front seats, full of fuel, bull bar etc the 200 series is overweight - all this for 2 people vs 45 years ago when a family of 5 could travel at almost half the weight.

Oh now we find the 200 series V8 while it can tow the behemoth it drinks like a drunken sailor - so the $130K Sahara is going to be sold off as it is not up to the job and a new American 7.2 Litre TDV8 Ute is going to be purchased to tow the behemoth. The interesting thing is that 10 years ago Bro was driving a Ford F250 with a 7.2 Litre TDV8 and it was a piece of crap that drank worse than a drunken sailor - it was traded for a new single turbo Landcruiser TDV8 which was underpowered and it was soon upgraded to the 200 series with its more powerful engine - still not good enough.

The process goes round and round all driven by bigger and bigger vans that weigh more and more and need bigger and bigger vehicles to tow them - it is the van wagging the tug.

The reality is that for most caravan trips even now - the old 1971 16' Franklin updated a bit would probably suffice.

Garry

[PhilipA]

So bring on the roadside checks, and only those who are outside the regulations need worry.

Hang on mate!
Maybe you should work out first who is to blame for this state of affairs.

My 1997 Camp-o-matic has a tare of 400Kg and a AGM of 750Kg. It was registered by NSW as that in 1997 and every year afterwards.
After I first saw the issues , I had it weighed, guess what a tare of about 750Kg .

I immediately fitted brakes to it even though in the 8 years I had owned it I had been around OZ twice.
It has ALKO parallel bearings which are rated to 1500Kg.

SO I wrote to the RTA (now (RMS) asking what could be done.
Answer go to an engineer and pay hundreds of $ to fix their stuff up.


I can recall talking to a trailer manufacturer who said no worries , any trailer manufacturer can write up a new plate. Unfortunately they went out of business before I got around to seeing them. I also spoke to Trak Shak who then owned Camp-o-Matic who said they were not interested. Trak Shak have now also gone.

I have met people who have bought caravans ( AVan 18 foot) where the towbar weight was much greater than the advertised weight , A van refused warranty or exchange or modification and they had to end up buying a new car to tow it.
I am sure that there are thousands of vans getting around over the towball weight or GVM.
But who should carry the can for this? the unwitting buyer or those actually responsible.?

Regards Philip A

[Konradical]

I also live near Katherine in the NT and witness the yearly pilgrimage of overweight, overloaded nomads. The variety of car/van/camper/homemade shenanigans is never ending and you rarely see the same setup twice.

Over the few years I have witnessed this bird like behaviour, there has seemed to be a trend of change that has aligned itself with the better knowledge of weights and it actually being policed.

Originally the pick of the towing mix was Toyota's, a few dual cabs, very rarely a jeep or LR, then the American "truck" and actual truck. Now the mix is mostly dual cabs, 200 series Toyota's, Jeeps and LR are more common and a plethora of American trucks. The light duty trucks still get around but at no change.

It seems the Ranger and BT50 are the most popular, followed by the Isuzu/Holden utes. Prado, MU-X/Colorado and other family sized SUVs are still common, but no where near as much as previous years.

Another thing I have noticed is the 24 foot van towed by a 100 series with boat on roof type combination is much rarer. I would average one a day a couple of years ago, but I would say it's less than quarter of that now.

If there was a study to occur on towing combinations, weights and driver behaviour, Katherine would be the place to do it. Especially with the weighbridge that you can't dodge on the Stuart.

Now the subject of tare weights is close to my heart currently;
We have a 2013 Jayco Dove Outback (huge I know!) and it's tare weight is 1160kg, it's ATM is 1360kg and it's GTM is 1230kg. Towball weights are 133kg dry and 160kg Max. I haven't tested the towball weight, 1) I have a treg hitch and testing it is fiddly, 2) the D4 has 350kg capacity and 3) it will never go over weight. But I have weighed the van attached to the car. Rear axle Weight on the D4 was 1500(ish, the weighbridge is to the nearest 100 on the public display) and GTM was 1300. This GTM measurement is perplexing. We aren't the typical family to fill the van with cupboards or excessive clothes, don't take kids bikes or scooters, no toolboxes or additional fuel/water containers. But it seems a two burner butane stove, camping clothes line and camp kitchen put it 50-70kg overweight. This was also with a half empty water tank.

I have spoken to the dealer who we brought this van from and they have yet to get back to me with possible reasons for it being so close to GTM. It has been suggested to get a GTM upgrade, but I'm not spending money when I shouldn't have to.

[weeds]

I, like everyone else on the forum can be involved if they choose to be, no permissions or explanations required [thumbsupbig]

Awesome...fill your boots, just pointing out I think you got your message across about the OP incorrectly mentioning ADR’s.

Have you researched references for the areas you’re not sure about??

[weeds]

My interest is that having built a 6 meter enclosed trailer totally of aluminium with a TARE of 1175kgs (wasn't intended as a caravan because it runs tri-axle, which adds 200kgs), I'm wondering if switching to all aluminium construction for caravans (chassis N' all), might start to look like a viable option, especially as vehicles become lighter (as in the new Disco), and as the police start to crack down on overall/towball weight.

Any thoughts on that?

Another thought, the more the manufacturers reduce the tare on an existing design I’m betting while the dual cab brigade are still listed to tow 3500kg they won’t drop the ATM and instead will promoted that their product has a higher spare load capacity making it more attractive to the punters so they can take even more stuff away.

[pop058]

Awesome...fill your boots, just pointing out I think you got your message across about the OP incorrectly mentioning ADR’s.

Have you researched references for the areas you’re not sure about??

I don't recall mentioning anyone, including the OP incorrectly referencing anything. I simply asked for some proof of the claims made about ball weights, etc.

I have done a significant amount of research and am yet to find any (official) documentation that confirms the "myths" (IMHO) about rated shackles, ball weights, etc. As I (like others I'm sure) would like to find it written somewhere (anywhere), I participate in such threads in the hope new light will be shed and the truth will eventually come to the surface and enlighten us.[bigsmile1]

[Mick_Marsh]

I have done a significant amount of research and am yet to find any (official) documentation that confirms the "myths" (IMHO) about rated shackles, ball weights, etc. As I (like others I'm sure) would like to find it written somewhere (anywhere), I participate in such threads in the hope new light will be shed and the truth will eventually come to the surface and enlighten us.[bigsmile1]

I thought this was so well said it needed repeating.

I often get called out to back up my opinion with supporting documentation. Why can't I call others out to do the same?

[DoubleChevron]

way heavier than that. those jayco silverlines tare at ~ 3000kg ...... :o

[donh54]

SWMBO and I went to a caravan show a year or so back. The thing that had me shaking my head was that almost all of the bigger vans had washing machines AND dryers! Why the hell would you want to tow that around Australia? That, and a completely blank look on most sales reps when you start talking about weights.
Many caravan forums have lots of posts regarding the inaccuracies of manufacturers tare weights. Perhaps the relevant authorities should start looking at those numbers, first.

[dirvine]

I know this is off topic from the OP. But my 16' of road van has a shower toilet and washing machine. And they all get used even if we stay in a caravan park. As we are Grey Nomads, we have now passed up the opportunities of roughing it with a Annex tent, open air cooking, toilet and shower. (yes I have a sizzler bbq which I use if the weather is ok).When we pull in at night/afternoon, its a 10 minutes set up, and we are sitting down with drinks in hand AND watching any TV show we want to. Some of us just like the luxuries of home and as such are prepared to pay for them and carry the extra weight. It was amazing last year on AFL grand final day how many people at the "free" camp site, came over for a talk to then watch our 28" TV and pull up a chair! I accept that I have a weight to carry, and that its not like it was 45 years ago in my parents Roadstar van. But like everything we move on. For example how many live in a one bathroom 3 bedroom home with no family/rumpus/TV room and outside alfresco area? We have progressed from the stone age. If some still want to live like that then go get a stripped out van. Dealers will make one for you. But the majority of van owners dont. Also if you have not seen all the arguements of weights, ATM,GVM, etc shackle ratings etc just go over the the Grey Nomads Forum (if you are old enough) and have a look. I also get ridiculed by the non LR set who still argue if I towed a big van I would have to have a WDH. And that the best tug is a 200 series even though they cannot carry anything once loaded up with essential accessories like LR tanks B Bar and winch and 350kg on the tow ball!!
Fire proof suit has now been put on!!!

[weeds]

SWMBO and I went to a caravan show a year or so back. The thing that had me shaking my head was that almost all of the bigger vans had washing machines AND dryers! Why the hell would you want to tow that around Australia? .

I suppose the old bucket wash suits some but a washing machine suits others.....just spec your new van without these little luxuries

Sadly we don’t have room for a washing machine.....

[Eevo]

people buy caravans for different reasons.
what suits them might not suit you and vice versa.

[PhilipA]

In my experience it is these "extras" that cause the most problems. I can recall camping at Kununurra and pulled up opposite was a very nice 20+footer towed by a very nice Fseries with enormous diesel.

First up the auto raising TV antenna would not work. This caused great angst and search for a TV technician. Next morning the owner who I had tried to help with the antenna, came across and said "disaster, the washing machine has broken"

So the bloke spent then several hours , trying to find someone to fix them.

I have seen this quite a bit around the place.eg microwaves falling on the floor, fridges falling to bits etc.

Another factor is that in caravan parks some thoughtless people run washing machines at unfriendly times. I can recall waking up early one morning to a "whirr -whirr " . I wondered what the hell it was until I realized that it was a washing machine in the caravan butted up against us.
Regards Philip A

[Rick Fischer]

[QUOTE=slug_burner;2837400]The reason for authorities not requesting technical proofs are: they don’t have anyone or enough of the people required to understand the outcomes/content of technical reports, authorities don’t want to have the responsibility for accepting technical information. Short of extended testing I can’t see how else anyone could claim to build something suitable for purpose other than by technical analysis or by sticking to standard documented best practice by recognised/accepted authorities.

One doesn't need to have the regulatory authority actually look at the "structural analysis". As with building structures it just needs to be signed off by an engineer properly authoried to do so. That is how aviation industry still works, and how the General, Ford and Toyota used to work. As it is now we accept foreign certification for the engineering in all the imported cars.

Cheers

Rick F

[Homestar]

Sounds like just another good reason not to stay in a Caravan Park. [emoji6]. I'd had wandered out and gently pulled on the power inlet to the van until it just disconnected but was still hanging in the socket...

[Bigbjorn]

Sounds like just another good reason not to stay in a Caravan Park. [emoji6]. I'd had wandered out and gently pulled on the power inlet to the van until it just disconnected but was still hanging in the socket...

I was a DSS field officer. We spent a lot of time in caravan parks. My advice to anyone is do not stay in a caravan park that has a preponderance of permanent residents. The dregs of humanity sink to the bottom in caravan parks. Stick to tourist parks and a quick look around before registering to ascertain whether the place is being kept clean and tidy. No dismantled cars and trucks, no broken washing machines out in the open, no snotty nosed ragged kids or spotty faced teenagers.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

What does your post have to do with anything caravan?
except,, once again displaying your absolute hatred of people less well off than you,,


Please dont argue,, 15 years of reading your diatribes is not something I wish to reinstall in my mind,,

[trout1105]

Its not just the tow ball weight you have to consider when buying a caravan you also have to consider if your car/truck is heavey enough to be able to tow the van safely.
I have always made sure that my towing vehicle is heavier than what i am towing and that it has enough "grunt" to pull the van/trailer without busting a gut.
When i see all the big vans being towed around with piddly little cars/4WD's i tend to shake my head somewhat because I think that this sort of setup is inherently unsafe.

[Mick_Marsh]

I have always made sure that my towing vehicle is heavier than what i am towing

I think that this sort of setup is inherently unsafe.
I would like to point out this is your opinion. You are allowed to have this opinion. That is not at issue.
Could I please see the engineering supporting this opinion?

What, there is none? there are many vehicles on the road that tow way more tonnage than the weight of the towing vehicle. Semmis, B-doubles, road trains, etc. To say the tow vehicle should be heavier than the towed trailer is wrong.

As I said, you are entitled to have that opinion and you are also entitled to practice that opinion within the current laws but you are not entitled to impose that opinion on others.

This is just said for clarification and applies to all other opinions being expressed on social media.

[101RRS]

You are spot on - is just an opinion however is based in older laws (maybe still applies in some cases) where manufacturers often did not list towing weights and the rule was that the trailer not weigh more than the GVM of the tug. However now manufactures list tow weights and these must be followed but I think the old law still applies to older vehicles where the manufacturer has not listed a max tow weight.

Garry

[vbrab]

I don't recall mentioning anyone, including the OP incorrectly referencing anything. I simply asked for some proof of the claims made about ball weights, etc.

I have done a significant amount of research and am yet to find any (official) documentation that confirms the "myths" (IMHO) about rated shackles, ball weights, etc. As I (like others I'm sure) would like to find it written somewhere (anywhere), I participate in such threads in the hope new light will be shed and the truth will eventually come to the surface and enlighten us.

My main reason in trying to stay within the listed design rules for trailers was that sure that if I went a whisker outside, or overweight in some area, then it would fail to get licenced.
As it was, we ended up [B]only 2mm under the maximum legal width (lights don't count), but could not fit personal access doors, as the window area bulged out and that would have made it over-width. So now having to reverse engineer the doors in with a recessed frame to mount them.
There was even some obscure rule about how the shackle chains were supposed to be mounted (not underneath in case they wore through in an emergency??), but the licencing guy just let it slide. No hand brake connected, but he said it did not have to have a hand brake. The main expectation in the design rules was that at least 10% of total TARE weight was to be on the tow ball. That was easy enough to achieve by moving the spare wheels up front (for licencing), and relocate them later.
The ADR specs are supposed to be the bible for trailers, but plenty in there to get confused about.

[Fatso]

I would like to point out this is your opinion. You are allowed to have this opinion. That is not at issue.
Could I please see the engineering supporting this opinion?

What, there is none? there are many vehicles on the road that tow way more tonnage than the weight of the towing vehicle. Semmis, B-doubles, road trains, etc. To say the tow vehicle should be heavier than the towed trailer is wrong.

As I said, you are entitled to have that opinion and you are also entitled to practice that opinion within the current laws but you are not entitled to impose that opinion on others.

This is just said for clarification and applies to all other opinions being expressed on social media.

You can not compare a Semi or B-Doulble which is configured totaly different to a Vehicle with a caravan swinging off a tow bar . There is plenty of technical pappers to confirm that the difference in weights should be in the tugs favour , you just have to look . I can suggest a read of Colllin Rivers technical books on thie subject .

[pop058]

My main reason in trying to stay within the listed design rules for trailers was that sure that if I went a whisker outside, or overweight in some area, then it would fail to get licenced.
As it was, we ended up only 2mm under the maximum legal width (lights don't count), but could not fit personal access doors, as the window area bulged out and that would have made it over-width. So now having to reverse engineer the doors in with a recessed frame to mount them.
There was even some obscure rule about how the shackle chains were supposed to be mounted (not underneath in case they wore through in an emergency??), but the licencing guy just let it slide. No hand brake connected, but he said it did not have to have a hand brake. The main expectation in the design rules was that at least 10% of total TARE weight was to be on the tow ball. That was easy enough to achieve by moving the spare wheels up front (for licencing), and relocate them later.
The ADR specs are supposed to be the bible for trailers, but plenty in there to get confused about.

I think we just went back to square one. [bigsad] Where in the ADRs does is define required towball weights ?????????

[Mick_Marsh]

You can not compare a Semi or B-Doulble which is configured totaly different to a Vehicle with a caravan swinging off a tow bar . There is plenty of technical pappers to confirm that the difference in weights should be in the tugs favour , you just have to look . I can suggest a read of Colllin Rivers technical books on thie subject .
As it appears that you know the subject extensively, perhaps you can post up links to the articles.

[Homestar]

You can not compare a Semi or B-Doulble which is configured totaly different to a Vehicle with a caravan swinging off a tow bar . There is plenty of technical pappers to confirm that the difference in weights should be in the tugs favour , you just have to look . I can suggest a read of Colllin Rivers technical books on thie subject .

Some might suggest that anything Collyn Rivers writes may need to be taken with a pinch of salt to be honest if all his work is like his Electrical advice - some of which should be listed in the 'Fiction' section of the Library.

So, if you have links to some technical docs by some Engineers of note and not a self proclaimed 'Expert' I'm happy to read through it.

[Milton477]

Others might suggest that this is playing like a thread on a caravan forum.[bigsad]

[Wilyms]

I think we just went back to square one. [bigsad] Where in the ADRs does is define required towball weights ?????????

OK, so I’m NOT going back to square one!!

Because I have a knack from reading stuff like this, I have now read through a whole bunch of ADRs......starting with the applicability summary to work out which apply. Of those there were a few obvious ones exclude but i am pleased to report that in ADRs:
38 Brakes
42 General
43 Vehicle configurations and dimensions
44 Specific vehicles
62 Mechical connections

NOWHERE mentioned drawbar or towball or ball weights. There is no mention of 10% anywhere either.

There is also a Vehicle Standards Bulletin which talks about ATM and GTM as definitions and the only comment is

Note
Except for semi-trailers, the difference between the ATM and GTM is usually small.

So once again, its not specifically in the ADRs. The certifier is wrong.

[Mick_Marsh]

From the OP

It seems all state police intend to start targeting caravanners for their tow ball weights
It's not in the ADRs.
Where is it? Can it be enforced? What would the charge be?

[Wilyms]

From the OP

It's not in the ADRs.
Where is it? Can it be enforced? What would the charge be?

‘It’ being exceeding the towball capacity?

That’s breaking a ‘road rule’ which are enforceable under the relevant state legislation and regulations - just like the speed limit or parking rules (or any other overloading rules)

[Mick_Marsh]

‘It’ being exceeding the towball capacity?

That’s breaking a ‘road rule’ which are enforceable under the relevant state legislation and regulations - just like the speed limit or parking rules (or any other overloading rules)
It being the 10% tow ball weight or are you suggesting, as my tow ball is rated to 3,500kg, I can theoretically have the full 3,500kg weighing down on the tow ball?
Which road rule is that? They are numbered.

[101RRS]

Manufacturers now specify ball weights for their vehicles as do tow bar makers - I think the cops will have a list of vehicles and approved ball weights and measuring that - eg my RRS is 350kg so if the van I was towing had an actual ball weight of say 400kg then I would be busted.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Hopefully busted by the common sense Police as well...

I keep getting the opinion that people have no concept of just how heavy 350kgs actually is...( yes I know thats dumb statement,, but you get my meaning)

[weeds]

Manufacturers now specify ball weights for their vehicles as do tow bar makers - I think the cops will have a list of vehicles and approved ball weights and measuring that - eg my RRS is 350kg so if the van I was towing had an actual ball weight of say 400kg then I would be busted.

Agree....

I think we get it/accept there is no reference to tow ball weights in ADR’s just like ADR’s don’t set GVM’s.

Pretty certain all late model cars have a max tow ball weight stated by the manufacturer therefore this would be what police/inspectors would be enforcing.

Your tow Ball is ultimately restricted to tie difference between the tare including people and load and either the cars GVM or rear axle weight, both of these are not set by ADR but are set by the manufacturers and is what’s the police/inspectors would be enforcing.

Vehicle handbook is all that is required.

Oh and it seems to be a coincidence that a good number of manufacturers set the max. Tow ball weight at ~10%.....maybe all the engineers come out of the same university.

Myself, I always ensure I have a positive tow ball weight, and know my total weights (GVM and rear axle). Like the other day I had a tow ball weight of 180kg, trailer 1080kg....well over 10% but under max tow ball weight....apparently you need brakes on a trailer over 750kg 🤫

[incisor]

any insurance battles after incidents are based on the manufacturers recommended weights / specs as well and there are some odd specs when you go looking, i am told.

[weeds]

Inc, have we lost a couple of posts this morning, my reply is missing along with the reply I quoted.

[incisor]

garrycols?

i can see them....

[weeds]

I think we can acknowledge there is no ADR covering tow ball weights, I assume everybody asking for a reference have googled the hell out of it and there is no reference.

Pretty sure all late car the manufacturer states max towing weight and in most cases max tow ball weight....this is what the police/inspectors will be checking and booking you on....the only reference required is user handbook in most cases (modern/late model cars).

Ultimately, tow ball is either
- the max. set by manufacturer or
- the difference between the weight of your car and your GVM......in many cases will reduce your allowed towball weight

Oh than there is rear axle weights which only a very few would actually check.

The other day I was running a 20% tow ball weight.....based on the trailer weight....Apparently you need brakes for trailers/load over 750kg [emoji57]

[weeds]

garrycols?

i can see them....

Yeah, I cannot see them in tapatalk...weird

[Mick_Marsh]

I think we can acknowledge there is no ADR covering tow ball weights, I assume everybody asking for a reference have googled the hell out of it and there is no reference.

Pretty sure all late car the manufacturer states max towing weight and in most cases max tow ball weight....this is what the police/inspectors will be checking and booking you on....the only reference required is user handbook in most cases (modern/late model cars).

Ultimately, tow ball is either
- the max. set by manufacturer or
- the difference between the weight of your car and your GVM......in many cases will reduce your allowed towball weight

Oh than there is rear axle weights which only a very few would actually check.

The other day I was running a 20% tow ball weight.....based on the trailer weight....Apparently you need brakes for trailers/load over 750kg [emoji57]
Yep. You're repeating yourself.

Can you see this?

[Fatso]

As it appears that you know the subject extensively, perhaps you can post up links to the articles.

Thanks for the complment , not sure about extensive knowledge on the subject , but i do know that a Prime Mover can not be used in the same vain to support the towing capabilities of a Car , as far as articals on the subject i will leave that up to you to sort out yourself .

[donh54]

I know for a fact, from personal experience, that having a dog trailer that is markedly heavier than the lead trailer, makes for quite an exciting time trying to pull up quickly! And that is in vehicle combinations approved for a GCM in excess of 120 tonnes.

[Mick_Marsh]

Thanks for the complment , not sure about extensive knowledge on the subject , but i do know that a Prime Mover can not be used in the same vain to support the towing capabilities of a Car , as far as articals on the subject i will leave that up to you to sort out yourself .Sadly, I cannot find any articles be reputable authors.
I can, however, find information on various vehicles. Using the D max, as an example, it is rated by the manufacturer to tow 3.5t and yet the vehicle itself weighs half that.
https://www.isuzuute.com.au/media/documents/Isuzu_D-MAX_Specification_Sheet.pdf

[dirvine]

The trouble with rated towing capacities is that at that total with say the "10%" TB mass (even if we do not agree that is correct), the D max can hardly have any payload. This is a spreadsheet that i did some time ago for interested people. Extract of a D Max


Comparison of some popular tow vehicles


Make/Model

Isuzu D-MAX LS-U 3ltr Auto


Max towing rating

3,500 Kg




3,500 Kg


TARE

1,945 Kg


Plus
TBW
350 Kg



Fuel
76 Kg



2 Passengers
150 Kg



bullbar
100 Kg



Mimimum GVM
2,621 Kg


GVM

2,950 Kg


Mandated GCM

5,950 Kg



remaining payload
329 Kg



GCM = Minimum GVM + Van weight result
-171 Kg



So with a bull bar, fuel and 2 passengers its overloaded by 171Kg!!

[PhilipA]

I am pretty sure that none of the European caravans on the Australian market would have 10% ball weight.

About 5% is common in Europe and reflected in the max ball weights of European cars which are quite low.

Regards Philip A

[gavinwibrow]

I am pretty sure that none of the European caravans on the Australian market would have 10% ball weight.

About 5% is common in Europe and reflected in the max ball weights of European cars which are quite low.

Regards Philip A


I concur.

I use one of those vertical tube towball weighing thingies - great present for fathers day, birthday etc.

I work on approx 180 towball weight for my 3.5T brick as from my experience being the most comfortable and feeling safe (and pull it with a 2+T D2, albeit only averaging about 80, so the faster ones hate me). I do have a "little" driving experience and still hold a HC licence, and my dear SWAMBO says I take more time looking rearwards to facilitate others overtaking, than I do driving looking forward.
Gave up my F licence years ago 'cos got p'd off having to have a legislated medical every year.

[Mick_Marsh]

The trouble with rated towing capacities is that at that total with say the "10%" TB mass (even if we do not agree that is correct), the D max can hardly have any payload. This is a spreadsheet that i did some time ago for interested people. Extract of a D Max


Comparison of some popular tow vehicles


Make/Model

Isuzu D-MAX LS-U 3ltr Auto


Max towing rating

3,500 Kg




3,500 Kg


TARE

1,945 Kg


Plus
TBW
350 Kg



Fuel
76 Kg



2 Passengers
150 Kg



bullbar
100 Kg



Mimimum GVM
2,621 Kg


GVM

2,950 Kg


Mandated GCM

5,950 Kg



remaining payload
329 Kg



GCM = Minimum GVM + Van weight result
-171 Kg



So with a bull bar, fuel and 2 passengers its overloaded by 171Kg!!
The mass of the tow vehicle is still less than the mass of the trailer which was my point.

[dirvine]

I agree Mick. All the "popular" Twin Cabs are less weight than a 3.5t van. But what I am also pointing out is that with full petrol, a few accessories, and two "average" weight passengers, they cannot tow a 3.5t van legally as they exceed the GCM.

[Mick_Marsh]

I agree Mick. All the "popular" Twin Cabs are less weight than a 3.5t van. But what I am also pointing out is that with full petrol, a few accessories, and two "average" weight passengers, they cannot tow a 3.5t van legally as they exceed the GCM.
Ye. Gotta watch that GCM.

However, if you ditch the passenger..........

[Homestar]

150kg for passangers.... Hmmm, me and my Pug - Wes and that's about stuffed.... [bigwhistle]

[Fatso]

Sadly, I cannot find any articles be reputable authors.
I can, however, find information on various vehicles. Using the D max, as an example, it is rated by the manufacturer to tow 3.5t and yet the vehicle itself weighs half that.
https://www.isuzuute.com.au/media/documents/Isuzu_D-MAX_Specification_Sheet.pdf

Tail wagging the Dog !! . Agree there are plenty of car manufacturers that place a 3500Kg towing capacity on there vehicles , nobody is saying that a vehicle can not tow 3500Kg .

Don Athaldo pulled a bus with his Teeth using a rope but what learned authors including the Caravan Council Of Australia are saying that it can become inherently unstable given the right circumstnces to tow a trailer that is heavier than the tug and suggest a trailer wieght that is about 80% of the tugs loaded weight and 10% Ball weight is considered safe to handle most obverse situations .

I noticed a twin cab ute this morning coming towards me towing a block of flats with its front end porposing up and down , obviously to much weight on the rear , he must have been experiencing understeer and a scary ride . Any way thats my take on it .

[Mick_Marsh]

Tail wagging the Dog !! . Agree there are plenty of car manufacturers that place a 3500Kg towing capacity on there vehicles , nobody is saying that a vehicle can not tow 3500Kg .

Don Athaldo pulled a bus with his Teeth using a rope but what learned authors including the Caravan Council Of Australia are saying that it can become inherently unstable given the right circumstnces to tow a trailer that is heavier than the tug and suggest a trailer wieght that is about 80% of the tugs loaded weight and 10% Ball weight is considered safe to handle most obverse situations .

I noticed a twin cab ute this morning coming towards me towing a block of flats with its front end porposing up and down , obviously to much weight on the rear , he must have been experiencing understeer and a scary ride . Any way thats my take on it .
Again, you are posting opinion without reference.
Where is this caravan council thing and do they have any legal jurisdiction?
Link please.

[weeds]

I read an article the other day....maybe the link was on here dunno..either way

It was Clayton’s Towing.....and they clearly state it there own opinions and mention they are not engineers or experts about Caravan accidents.

Interesting comments about WDH and brake controllers

Caravan Crashes - Our Opinion As To Why | Clayton's Towing (https://claytonstowing.com.au/caravan-crashes/)

[Mick_Marsh]

I read an article the other day....maybe the link was on here dunno..either way

It was Clayton’s Towing.....and they clearly state it there own opinions and mention they are not engineers or experts about Caravan accidents.

Interesting comments about WDH and brake controllers

Caravan Crashes - Our Opinion As To Why | Clayton's Towing (https://claytonstowing.com.au/caravan-crashes/)
Thanks for posting that.
From the article:

We will stress though this is our opinion, we are not engineers, nor do we have special tickets (other than semi-trailer licences), so take it as you like.
There are some things in that article which agrees with the views I have formed from my experiences towing.
Still, I have found through my experiences dealing with authorities, my opinion means jack ****.

[Wilyms]

I agree Mick. All the "popular" Twin Cabs are less weight than a 3.5t van. But what I am also pointing out is that with full petrol, a few accessories, and two "average" weight passengers, they cannot tow a 3.5t van legally as they exceed the GCM.

It really boils down to marketing vs engineering

Marketing says: our competitor says it can tow 3500kg, engineering can you help?

engineering says: yep sure thing, we can match that but it will mean vehicle payload will suffer

Marketing: sounds great and we just won’t mention that other stuff

so the headline says 3500kg towing capacity but the real world capability is no where near unless it’s just you and a folding chair in the tow vehicle

[weeds]

Toyota and hi-lux probably had it about right with the lower towing capacity...but have been force to up towing capacity to 3500 to slow down the loss of sales to the other dual cab brigade.

[Wilyms]

Again, you are posting opinion without reference.
Where is this caravan council thing and do they have any legal jurisdiction?
Link please.

Not CCA but an interesting article with an attempt at referencing

Towball Weight and Trailer Stability (https://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/driving-towing-towing/towball-weight-and-trailer-stability)

This one references CCA

Tow Vehicle and Caravan Weight - Caravan Buyers Guide (https://caravanbuyersguide.com.au/tow-vehicle-caravan-weight/)

i think we’ve done the legal jurisdiction stuff to death now.

[Mick_Marsh]

Not CCA but an interesting article with an attempt at referencing

Towball Weight and Trailer Stability (https://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/driving-towing-towing/towball-weight-and-trailer-stability)

This one references CCA

Tow Vehicle and Caravan Weight - Caravan Buyers Guide (https://caravanbuyersguide.com.au/tow-vehicle-caravan-weight/)

i think weÂ’ve done the legal jurisdiction stuff to death now.

UK – Recommendations of the Camping and Caravanning Club of the UK (relates to tow vehicle kerb weight)
Germany – Federal Legislation for caravans with brakes and shock absorbers (relates to tow vehicle kerb weight)
Australia – Recommendations of the Caravan Council of Australia (relates to tow vehicle GVM)
Yep. Overseas laws or opinion.
I tell you what, to make things more uniform, lets adopt the South Africas towing laws.
http://carinsurance.arrivealive.co.za/wp-content/uploads/Towing-multiple-trailers.jpg
Can I legally tow more than one trailer? What would I need to Consider? | Car Insurance (http://carinsurance.arrivealive.co.za/can-i-legally-tow-more-than-one-trailer-what-would-i-need-to-consider.php)

[trout1105]

You can not compare a Semi or B-Doulble which is configured totaly different to a Vehicle with a caravan swinging off a tow bar . There is plenty of technical pappers to confirm that the difference in weights should be in the tugs favour , you just have to look . I can suggest a read of Colllin Rivers technical books on thie subject .

Simple Common sense will tell you that the tug should be heavier than the trailer because the braking sytems on your average van/trailer is Nowhere near as efficiant as the braking sytems on a semi trailer or B double.
YES it is only my opinion But that opinion is based on experiance Not from reading a book or social media.

[loanrangie]

Simple Common sense will tell you that the tug should be heavier than the trailer because the braking sytems on your average van/trailer is Nowhere near as efficiant as the braking sytems on a semi trailer or B double.
YES it is only my opinion But that opinion is based on experiance Not from reading a book or social media.To me that would be common sense but just look at all these block of flats on wheels that people tow , usually heavier that tug. Most cat trailers with a car on weight a lot more than the tug as well.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I would be interested in a "drive" of a 3500kg van,,
just to see how much better 4 x 12" (than 4 x 10's) brakes are..
can they BE twice as effective?


t'is funny sitting outside a pub watching all the vans roll into town up to their first stop sign/lights,,
and seeing which ones had set their brake controller for highway speed and forgotten to change it [bigrolf]


dumb redarcs...

[Fatso]

Simple Common sense will tell you that the tug should be heavier than the trailer because the braking sytems on your average van/trailer is Nowhere near as efficiant as the braking sytems on a semi trailer or B double.
YES it is only my opinion But that opinion is based on experiance Not from reading a book or social media.

In my opinion your opinion describing laws of science is the opinion of many teck writers , and of course its my opinion that experiance is tantamount . But thats only my opinion . [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf] .

[Rextheute]

Knock yourselves out .....

vsb1 - Google Search (https://www.google.com.au/search?ei=aoOQW_-iA4yIoASk46K4Aw&q=vsb1&oq=vsb&gs_l=psy-ab.1.4.0i67k1j0l9.3628.4717.0.8852.3.3.0.0.0.0.267 .735.2-3.3.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.3.734...0i131k1j0i131i67k1.0.DIcr---RIXw)

Pedro , a little light reading !

AL-KO Electric Drum Brake Kits (http://www.alko.com.au/vehicle-technology-catalogue/electric-drum-brakes/electric-drum-brake-kits/)

Bigger Brakes are more a capacity issue than a stopping issue ....Although in my exprience the 12 inchers do pull up okay , but have a tendency to lock up if the trailer is a bit 'light'

[vbrab]

Mick is correct in that there is no specific ADR thats specifies a trailer has to have <10%+ on the tow ball, however, the front axle, or front axle of any set of axles cannot be before the centre of the trailer, and the weight behind the front axle must be less than what is in front of the leading axle.
That is the interpretation (and I stress it is an interpretation), of the design rules from engineers who design and draft trailers for a living. Goty that from 2 of them and all they do is draft trailers from light domestic to trucking grade.
The biggest cause of trailer "sway" is where the load is behind the leading axle, and it seems that good engineering was working to limit that possibility, by building the trailer accordingly for starters.
That said, the rules vary between states, and in WA, the licencing police were quite adamant that they wanted to see 10%+ on the tow ball, or they would not licence my trailer.
I built with a tri axle and wanted to put front axle forward of centre with the two rear axles behind centre, but seems they were not happy with that either, so i ended up with maybe 8% on the tow ball (after I "adjust" the spare wheel location).

Bottom line is, smart drivers load their trailers being mindful of load distribution and towing limts of their vehicle, but a great many drivers appear totally oblivious to any such concerns, and that is likely what the police are starting to target.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

You guys are operating under the assumption the people that build these vans have some form of actual Engineering training...

they have sales training,,

they build the "Front page of Home Beautiful" van, then literally slide the van along on top of the purchased axle setup until there is around 10 percent on the ball, then attach.

its defineatly NOT rocket science....

[trout1105]

I have seen plenty of big vans being towed by F250's and Dodge RAM's and I would argue that these vehicles would do a better a d safer job of towing these vans than a little DMax, Hilux or Amroc will.
To hell with the advertised towing capacity spouted by car salesmen , Sone trucks May be able to tow a 3.5t van But you have to ask yourself how long would a mid sized SUV last doing this and how would they shape up if things went pear shaped on the track/road..
When I bought our van I got rid of a perfectly good Hilux dual cab and replaced it with a V8 79 series ute because even though the Hilux was "rated" to be able to tow the van it was seriously underguned and underweight for the job.
How do I come up with this finding? I have towed the van with both the Hilux and the 79 series and the 79 series is quantum leaps in front of the little Hilux as far as towing the van is concerned.
Also the V8 with the fat exhaust on the 79 series sounds WAY cooler than the little 24D 4cyl in th hilux[biggrin]

[Mick_Marsh]

I have seen plenty of big vans being towed by F250's and Dodge RAM's and I would argue that these vehicles would do a better a d safer job of towing these vans than a little DMax, Hilux or Amroc will.
To hell with the advertised towing capacity spouted by car salesmen , Sone trucks May be able to tow a 3.5t van But you have to ask yourself how long would a mid sized SUV last doing this and how would they shape up if things went pear shaped on the track/road..
When I bought our van I got rid of a perfectly good Hilux dual cab and replaced it with a V8 79 series ute because even though the Hilux was "rated" to be able to tow the van it was seriously underguned and underweight for the job.
How do I come up with this finding? I have towed the van with both the Hilux and the 79 series and the 79 series is quantum leaps in front of the little Hilux as far as towing the van is concerned.
Also the V8 with the fat exhaust on the 79 series sounds WAY cooler than the little 24D 4cyl in th hilux[biggrin]
Yep. More opinion. And, as I have previously said, you are quite entitled to it.
I also have an opinion. It differs to yours and is also just as valid as yours.
Oh, and as I have previously mentioned, my opinion means jack ****.

What does have weight is manufacturers ratings and legislated rules.

[trout1105]

It's really a matter of horses for courses, A manufacturer can rate a vehicle to tow 3.5t with a 350kg towball rating But will it do the job well?
Also these ratings are with the vehicle unloaded, What happens to these "ratings" when you load up all the crap we all like to take with us on trips?
A bigger, heavier, more powerful vehicle will always out perform the lighter less powerful vehicle when used as a tow tug and in most cases they will also outlast the smaller trucks because they are not being pushed to their limits.
A Clydesdale and a Shetland poney are both rated at 1 horse power, which would you choose to pull a heavey buggy??

[Mick_Marsh]

A Clydesdale and a Shetland poney are both rated at 1 horse power, which would you choose to pull a heavey buggy??
I see what you are saying. It's all about power. If I install a 6 litre 500hp turbo diesel in my Camry, I can tow a 3.5t behemoth.

[trout1105]

I see what you are saying. It's all about power. If I install a 6 litre 500hp turbo diesel in my Camry, I can tow a 3.5t behemoth.

No, what you would have is a hotrod not a towing tug[biggrin]

[donh54]

I see what you are saying. It's all about power. If I install a 6 litre 500hp turbo diesel in my Camry, I can tow a 3.5t behemoth.

No. Australian Camrys (2018 models, at least) are rated to tow 500kg (unbraked), or 1200kg braked for the 4 cylinder, and 1500kg braked for the V6. Info from Toyota Camry 2018 review | CarsGuide (https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-reviews/toyota-camry-61133)

Doesn't matter what you do to the driveline, those are the maximum figures, as set by the manufacturer. :rulez:

[Mick_Marsh]

No. Australian Camrys (2018 models, at least) are rated to tow 500kg (unbraked), or 1200kg braked for the 4 cylinder, and 1500kg braked for the V6. Info from Toyota Camry 2018 review | CarsGuide (https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-reviews/toyota-camry-61133)

Doesn't matter what you do to the driveline, those are the maximum figures, as set by the manufacturer. :rulez:
I totally agree with you. The manufacturer has rate my Camry to tow 1200kg braked. To tow more, I would have to get it engineered for a greater towing capacity.
And the D-Max is rated to tow 3.5t braked.
Opinions mean jack ****.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

http://www.whoisjack****.com/

[Chops]

http://www.whoisjack****.com/

Hopefully, this one works [bigwhistle]

http://www.whoisjack****.com/

Ok it doesn't,,, [bigsad] Fill in the blanks and have a good laugh anyway [biggrin]