Series diesel engines

[JOHN T]

I am just wondering if someone can help me with the differences between a Series 2 and a Series 3 diesel engine please?

And if possible, some opinions on the above engines please?

Many thanks.

[JDNSW]

The Rover diesel engine was introduced in 1956 in the Series 1 as a clean sheet new design. At two litres capacity, it was a four cylinder wet sleeve engine, and one of the first fitted to any small four wheel drive or, indeed, any small vehicle.

This remained in the 1958 Series 2, but the new Series 2 petrol engine became a petrol version of the diesel (without the wet sleeves and enlarged to 2.25l). In 1961, with the Series 2a, the diesel was enlarged to 2.25, dropped the sleeves, and shared the same block as the petrol engine. (And with numerous other detail changes)

This engine continued throughout 2a and into Series 3 with only very minor changes until about 1981, when the engine was modified to a five main bearing crankshaft, and changed to metric threads. This engine is very rare in Australia, as the changeover seems to have been later for Australian built Series 3. (And by that time the Isuzu was the preferred diesel for most customers in Australia, being available as an alternative to the V8 in the Series 3 'Stage 1'.

Going beyond Series vehicles, the diesel engine was enlarged to 2.5l for the 110 in 1983, with a turbo available from about 1986, but these were never sold in Australia, with only V8 and Isuzu engine fitted Landrovers being assembled here until the Defender. The diesel was redeveloped as the 200Tdi for the Discovery in 1989, and replaced the existing diesel in the Defender, which did not appear here until 1991.

The engine is an indirect injection engine, using the Ricardo 'Comet' precombustion chambers (along with a large proportion of successful diesel engines designed from about 1938 to 1970). It is fitted with the distributor type CAV injection pump, and has electric heater plugs for cold start (rarely needed in Australia). The engine is usually considered to be reliable but not particularly long lasting compared to modern small diesels, although this may be a function of improving oils. They are not powerful by modern standards, but for offroad use are very capable thanks to the low speed torque and flexibility - the engine pull strongly from 4,000 rpm down to a stall at about 500rpm (but full throttle at very low revs is inviting a broken crankshaft!). They are noisy.

The engines do not take kindly to overheating (invariably due to cooling system issues - the vibration is likely to result in cracked radiators etc). Also, as with most diesels, clean fuel is essential, and good maintenance is also essential.



They are relatively easy to work on.

[JOHN T]

Hi John

I really appreciate your response.

As always, your knowledge is incredible and second to none.

Now to find an engine in WA.

Many thanks.

Regards

John

[dromader driver]

A bit more from my series 3 trayback diesel....

- the govenor limited mine to 55mph which is probably a safe limit on the flat. someone once said it was to save the brake energy limit....
- will pull stumps from low idle.
- change to the later glow plugs as they were wired in parallell where the old ones were series and used a resistor on the firewall and looked like someone stole a bobby pin and bent it up. On failure took out all of them. Had one original blow out the ceramic centre as well.
- keep the good oil up to stop clagging. Rimula or Delo
- original oil cleaner is very effective but tends to rust the bottom of the bowl out if any moisture.
- 3 main crank had a habit of failing especially after a regrind. Mine broke through the main oil feed pulling up the hills coming out of bathurst to sydney. going like a train up till then.
- as with any diesel the timing and injectors are critical .
- ordered bits from uk in the old days by fax on monday and in Orange on friday!
- can be run with the engine fan off and a themo fan . helps on warmup and reduces noise significantly. only really needs fan in traffic or a big hill eg Mt Vic. Heater was warm as toast and the engine seemed to like it.
- the old diesel injector services that do perkins can usually do LR for series vehicles.
- goes well with a hotdog exhaust.

Keep in mind this is a very old engine and should be treated as such! Good fun for a rebuild [thumbsupbig]

[JDNSW]

.......
- 3 main crank had a habit of failing especially after a regrind. Mine broke through the main oil feed pulling up the hills coming out of bathurst to sydney. going like a train up till then.
....

It seems that the end of each journal on the crankshaft is radiused, and getting this right is critical to prevent a stress concentration and resultant crankshaft failure. Anyone getting one of these crankshafts reground needs to make sure the workshop fully understands this requirement and complies with it.

It is a long time since I owned and ran one of these, but the top speed you mention (55mph) would be about right, but I do not remember this as being a governed top speed - that is just as fast as it went. Although the engine maximum rpm is governed a little lower than that of the petrol engine's maximum power, I think it is above that speed. And the governor setting is nothing to do with brakes - the petrol engined one with the same brakes will go quite a bit faster - my current 2a (109 4 cyl) will cruise comfortably at 100kph (GPS) barring headwinds or hills, although it is more comfortable a little slower.

This diesel revs significantly higher than subsequent diesels fitted to Landrovers, and seems quite happy to do so.

[russellrovers]

Hi John

I really appreciate your response.

As always, your knowledge is incredible and second to none.

Now to find an engine in WA.

Many thanks.

Regards

Johnhi john i have a complete s2 engine 1958 petrol for sale if this helps jim

[Cap]

Going through this now, S3 engine and S2a gbox. On the clutch side, the earlier ones had 9" clutch with 2 dowels flywheel and the later had 9.5" 3 dowel flywheel.

[Johnno1969]

It seems that the end of each journal on the crankshaft is radiused, and getting this right is critical to prevent a stress concentration and resultant crankshaft failure. Anyone getting one of these crankshafts reground needs to make sure the workshop fully understands this requirement and complies with it.


John is spot-on with this. When I was rebuilding my 2.25D, I was concerned to find that the crank had been re-ground 10 thou undersize sometime previously. The manuals say expressly not to take anything off the journals of the 2.25D. As John says, the radius on each big end journal is critical. Luckily, mine appeared to have been done correctly (at the time, I checked a lot of this with a contact in the UK) and I went ahead with the rebuild. Seventeen years later, it's running fine. Knock wood.

I love this little engine, it gets around 30mpg day in, day out. Great for its designed purpose of punting the Landy around at low speeds. I feel guilty every time I take it out on a highway, however.

John

[HUE166]

This engine continued throughout 2a and into Series 3 with only very minor changes until about 1981, when the engine was modified to a five main bearing crankshaft, and changed to metric threads. This engine is very rare in Australia, as the changeover seems to have been later for Australian built Series 3. (And by that time the Isuzu was the preferred diesel for most customers in Australia, being available as an alternative to the V8 in the Series 3 'Stage 1'.



Hi John,

I have just purchased an October 1981 build Series III 109 Cab-Chassis Diesel. It has the 5 main bearing engine which is superficially identifiable by the "Land Rover 2.3D" badge on the lower rear of the front wings. Mine is very, very tired and is just used to help with fencing and carting hay at home. I do, however, intend to do a rebuild in a couple of years and bring the whole vehicle back to life.

I have grown very fond of the diesel for its simplicity and apparent reliability. I'm actually loving it.

[JDNSW]

Interesting - twenty-five years ago I bought a 1981 Series 3 cab/chassis diesel, same 2.3 label you mention. I assumed it had the five bearing engine, but found out it was the three bearing. I had planned on putting it in my 2a, but although it was low mileage, it had been 'dusted', and I decided the cost of an overhaul was not worth changing to diesel, so I kept the petrol motor in the 2a.

Interesting, as it had never been registered, came with all documentation, including the permit to drive it to the farm. It had never been off the farm until I bought it, and I don't think it had ever been serviced.

It contributed the cab, high back seats and doors plus a few other bits to my 2a, and I have sold a number of other bits, but still some left!

[HUE166]

That is interesting then. Perhaps mine is a 3-main as well. I haven't yet done a service on it but will hopefully get that done next week. I'm just waiting on a new set of radiator hoses. I'll have a closer look at it and find the engine number etc when doing the service.

I bought it sight-unseen on EBay last week. It seems to go ok with new brakes although it has all the signs of being tired (Blows blue smoke and jumps out of second gear). I'm hoping to keep it limping around the farm in its current condition for the next two years or so before retiring it for a rebuild.

Thanks for that advice John,

Rohan.

[JDNSW]

If it starts easily and does not use too much oil, I would tend not to worry too much about a bit of blue smoke. Possibly just the valve stem seals allowing oil into the intake. Not normally an issue with diesels as there is not much of a vacuum in the intake as there is no throttle. But this model has a throttle in the intake specifically to develop a reasonable vacuum for the power assisted braking, so that does not apply. If this is the case, replacing the stem seals is relatively easy and cheap.

The jumping out of gear seems unfortunately to be fairly common with the Series 3 box. Draining the oil and inspecting what comes out may indicate whether it is the synchro springs. Less likely is lack of tension on the spring detents that hold the fork shafts in place. Unless this is the case, fixing it is likely to be fairly expensive if you don't do the work yourself, as the box will have to come out and be disassembled just to determine the problem.

[HUE166]

If it starts easily and does not use too much oil, I would tend not to worry too much about a bit of blue smoke. Possibly just the valve stem seals allowing oil into the intake. Not normally an issue with diesels as there is not much of a vacuum in the intake as there is no throttle. But this model has a throttle in the intake specifically to develop a reasonable vacuum for the power assisted braking, so that does not apply. If this is the case, replacing the stem seals is relatively easy and cheap.

The jumping out of gear seems unfortunately to be fairly common with the Series 3 box. Draining the oil and inspecting what comes out may indicate whether it is the synchro springs. Less likely is lack of tension on the spring detents that hold the fork shafts in place. Unless this is the case, fixing it is likely to be fairly expensive if you don't do the work yourself, as the box will have to come out and be disassembled just to determine the problem.

Thanks again for that advice also. I'm not concerned too much about oil consumption for the time being as it won't be going on-road at all. I actually have a spare series 3 gear box on the floor in the shed although its condition/history is unknown. I might run a rebuild kit through that and have it ready to swap once I get sick of holding the current one in second gear.

I'll certainly look at replacing the stem seals though. Cheers.