New Member - Don't know anything about Defenders - Questions

[G.man]

Hello,

Not sure where I am meant to post what I am about to ask on this forum, so many sections etc and not knowing anything about Land Rovers in general, I figured this to be the right place considering it has the Defender tag.

Anyway...

What am I trying to work out?

Well I am after a 4x4 Turbo Diesel for off-roading and traveling around Australia. I plan to go to victorian high country, flinders rangers, cape york, Gibbs river road, Kimberleys, Hot springs in NT etc.

The general go-to 4x4 everyone knows (including myself) is the 80 Series Landcruiser and GQ/GU patrol.

Terms of looks and everything, I love the JKU 4 door wrangler. Its shear aftermarket support, off-road capability etc make it basically unstoppable. From everything I could figure out, if a wrangler cant climb it, neither can any other 4x4.

On the other hand, that off-road performance comes at a cost of luggage space, loading ability etc.

Because I didn't want to go to a 1997 4.2 Turbo Diesel 1HD-FTE multivalve 80 series cruiser, I was very interested in the land rover defender.

I seen some reviews, tests etc where they test the Defender TD vs a rubicon wrangler, and they say the wrangler has the upper hand in off-road terrain, but... the rubicon 1: is the petrol, not the Turbo Diesel I would be after and 2: the Defender in stock form didn't have all the extras the rubicon in stock form have.

So my question is if we modify the Defender, add 35-37" tires (like they do on wranglers), turbo diesel, more wheel travel, add differential locks front and rear etc...

Is the defender going to be a better off-road capable machine than a wrangler or are there fixed inherent designs that still make the Wrangler the 'off road choice' -Such as wider wheel track of the wrangler. etc.

On another front, I understand one inherent design advantage of the Defender is space, you can buy lockers, you can add wheel travel, better suspension etc, but you cant create more space, this is where the defender wins.

Having said that, for 2 people, seats out (in either JKU 4 door wrangler or 4 door Defender), do I really need the space of a Defender for traveling around the country? I also do not plan to tow anything so the vehicles towing capacity etc may not be that relevant (of an advantage) to me. + The JKU can have the GVM upgraded if I needed to increase its load ability.

Wranglers do have long range auxilery tanks available giving it 140 Litres for a diesel, which will get you 1000+ KM. Is that enough or do you really need the Land rovers 200+ litres ability?

So as you can see, I am after the ultimate off-road capable vehicle without over-kill. If I do not need all the space of a defender as everything you need (fridge 80L, gas bottles, water containers, few pots/pans 4x4 mattress etc) will fit in either car, then why sacrifice off-road ability/ease for a benefit not realised (space). On the other hand, if the space is a huge factor etc... then why sacrifice space for 'ultimate off road capable' if you never will take it into those 4x4 situations where the advantage of one would be realised.

So I am just trying to get a feel for the defender, its off road capability (after mods), its after market support, and whether or not all that extra space is something you need and how reliable these are for traveling around the country, for 2 people, all rear seats down (or taken out completely).


Hope this makes sense

Thanks

[MLD]

Welcome

First order of comparison is to drive a Defender. If it doesn't work for you (ergonomically, sense of style, generally enjoyment behind the wheel) the issues you raised fall away. Defenders either capture you or not.

The 4wding you stated is all pretty tame from a technical perspective. A defender in stock form will eat it up. I run long travel suspension and 35's (with gearing to suit) and it is a compromise for touring. High speed turns on dirt are just scary and the 35's suck more fuel. When driving long distances the extra fuel adds up. You would be better off with a set of 33's, leaving the suspension stock and invest in a torque biasing front and manual locker rear diff set up. In a 130 you will travel this great brown land in a 4x4 with plenty of space for all your crap and as competent as a Rubicon as a weekend warrior. (personally i think the Wrangler's have poor suspension geometry but that's my uneducated opinion). You will get a defender suspension to work better for less effort & $ than you can a wrangler (IMO).

As for fuel, i travelled from Sydney to the Cape and back with a 75ltr tank and took the jerry can on a holiday. I just came back from the Madigan line and used 130 ltr on the crossing. I have a 127ltr long range tank. Other than the Canning there are few that demand more than 130ltrs. In those cases, planning fuel is important as planning water/food etc and you will be keenly aware of your limitations.

As for capability off road, beware of buyers bias (we all justify our purchasing decisions) and by and large most vehicles are set up differently (dictated by budget and perceptions of what works). My 2 cents, buy the 4x4 that speaks to your heart and the rest can be overcome with aftermarket bits and bobs.

[Vin Rouge]

I agree with MLD. First join a Land Rover club and talk to members about their vehicles. A Defender will perform perfectly well 'out of the box'. don't rush into modifying until you have gained some experience. As to space, my wife and I have travelled all around Australia in our 1995 Defender 90. With a little careful packing we've never been short of space. I believe it's actually an advantage. Less space equals less junk. Think along the line that every item you carry should have at least two uses.

Above all, if a Defender doesn't grab your attention, don't bother with it.

[dromader driver]

The comments above are pretty accurate. The Defender is unbeatable off road in stock form with standard tyres and handles pretty well for a truck. Depending on seats required a trayback can carry all the gear you need and provide significant additional space when secured with a canopy. The low fuel burn around 10l/100k for the earlier versions is pretty hard to beat. Planning your fuel requirements can aleviate the need for megga tanks and a couple of well secured jerrys is more than sufficient.

Be very wary of jeeps. one nearly killed my kids on the pacific highway near coffs and killed the owner. something happened on the wet highway and it crossed the centreline. Wouldn't get in one.

[Zeros]

Welcome. All great advice above.

My advice is if you want to do all those fantastic big trips across the continent, grab a Defender, dont modify it at all and invest your money ensuring the mechanical basics are top notch - engine, driveline, cooling, electrical. As others have said, big tyres and suspension lifts, etc, are no good for long distance touring and Defenders are very capable in stock form. A stock Defender will also be a much better long distance tourer than a Jeep Wrangler IMO.

Go and drive a couple of Defenders and if you’re hooked! You won’t look back.

[G.man]

Thanks for the replies so far...

From everything I have been able to research, the wranglers have better suspension etc and more capable 'out of the box'. They got longer wheel travel and have a wider track than Defenders. They also cost half as much to begin with leaving the other half to really upgrade an already very capable machine.

The Defender I have seen can run a 200L fuel tank, the wranglers maxed at 140... but... do you really need more than that? I mean thats still over 1000km... I cant imagine needing to be able to go 2000km with no fuel stations anywhere for that distance... thats like going from Sydney to past bundaberg and no fuel stations... thats half the continent on 1 tank.

Before you get the wrong idea, I am not trying to say "well buy the wrangler then why are you asking us for" - I am trying to learn about the vehicle so I can make an informed decision.

What is the after-market parts availability for the Defender like? Wanting diff locks front and rear etc... how much stuff is available for these and how hard/easy is it to get what you need? I know for the Wrangler it is basically infinite...

[incisor]

First up you need to go sit in a defender and take it for a drive or two.

the ergonomics suit many but not all.

never owned a late model defender but have owned several up to 1996 models.

i can drive for 17+ hours, only stopping for food etc breaks and hop out of a defender still feeling fresh enough to saunter up the road and have a look around. and so can the better half.

neither of us can do that in a wrangler, discovery 1 / 2 or my range rover for that matter.

many others are over feeling cramped in a defender in a couple of hours.

as for big tyre size etc, it will come back to what size and weight you want to tow etc

but you really need to sit in a defender for a few hours first up and find out whether you cope IMHO

[Dervish]

I doubt you would fit a mattress and sleep comfortably in a Wrangler, it's only just big enough in a Defender.

[LRJim]

The most important thing you are forgetting about buying a wrangler......you will look like a tool. You see these wranglers getting around all jacked up massive tyres and flares and generally it's some "man bun" sporting ****** driving it thinking it's a hummer. You will spend a fortune on it getting it lifted and big tyres and all that when really "out of the box" a defender ****s all over it even a disco does offroad. I don't hate jeeps but they belong cruising along Beaconsfield parade (st kilda) with the top down on a nice hot summers day if you catch my drift ;)

[weeds]

Sounds like you’re sold on a Jeep.....your correct many bolt on’s available, plenary on the market and would be cheaper than defender of he same vintage.

Looking at the places you want to tour I cannot see you needing 35+ tyres apart from standing out in a crowd

[Zeros]

It sounds like you’re more interested in the image of a capable 4x4 than what you really need.

...if you want a buggy with big wheels for gnarly boulder hopping or beach posing, sure get a Wrangler. It would be perfect.

...but if, as you say, you really want to criss cross the continent and go to all the major spots you mention, 95% of your driving will be 1000’s of km on bitumen roads or dirt roads in varying conditions and then some places that you really need 4x4. When you get to a place whrre you really need a ‘capable’ 4x4 the Defender will easily do anything but the most extreme tracks. The more capable vehicle for all of this is a Defender.

I’ve driven a Jeep Wrangler on the highway. It was so uncomfortable, steering wandered, rough choppy tide, seats were terrible, loadspace is tiny. I wouldn’t touch one.

I’ve driven my Defender across Australia to most of the places you mention numerous times, have lived in the north, northwest, the western deserts, south of the country for the past 20 years. I’ve driven Land cruisers, Hilux, patrols, for work all over too.. If I have a choice, i wouldn’t drive anything other than my Defender.. it’s the most robust, comfortable and capable truck for 95% of all conditions available IMO. My second choice would be a Toyota. A Jeep Wrangler would be very low on the list.

My first choice would be a Defender. The only bias here comes from experience.

PSif you really want a capable truck for seriously gnarly tracks, see the story on Damian’s 90 in the latest: http://www.loaded4x4.com.au/issue-003/#161
I’d choose that over a Wrangler any day too.

[djam1]

Based on the questions you are asking and they way you seem to be thinking I think you should buy a Jeep
IMHO a Jeep may be more capable on rock steps or some other unique circumstance there will be no comparison in real world touring.
Jeeps (apart from maybe the very early military ones) have never been strong enough for carrying weight in a touring setting.
A Defender on the other hand is a good structure that generally handles rough conditions very well.

The issue you have with Land Rovers is you need to engineer some of the crap out of them this becomes frustrating to some and they give up others keep going and end up with a personalized result that works well.
I would be wary of the later models and arm yourself with knowledge.
I have been touring and working in many of the areas you mention for the last 40 years, all out capability isn't that critical but durability is.
While working for Toyota I found the product to be reliable if serviced properly but I still drive a Defender.

The modern thinking is you need 37 inch tyres, winches, diff locks etc just to drive on a dirt road this is nonsense its more about looks than any practical purpose. After all back in the 70s both locals and tourists drove old holdens and fords.
I have driven into very isolated locations to find Aboriginals in an XD falcon doing what I am doing.
I wouldn't mind a Jeep as a play thing but wouldn't use one in Outback Australia.

[Tote]

Having a JK wrangler 4 door and a Defender 130 in the family maybe I can add some value. Both vehicles have been reliable, The JK is a 2011 petrol model with 240,000 KM now and has the following bits:
Rhino roof Rack
ARB Bar
2" lift with Bilstein shocks
265/70 Mickey Thompson STZ tyres on original rims (transformed the ride and handling)
When we did the Tassie trip we had a winch on the front which made a noticeable difference to the handling

We've done a 4wd trip to Tassie and can't fault it off road but with 2 Adults and two Kids it struggled to carry all our stuff, we worked around this by base camping and doing day trips but we took the transit sections pretty easy. What you say about the Wrangler's capability is pretty accurate with the few mods we have done it was easily as capable as the other vehicles on the trip which included Patrols, LC75s, Prados etc. The Jeep, like the Defender is an acquired taste and after you drive one you will love it or hate it but SWMBO loves hers and I don't mind it.

The Defender replaced a Disco3 and is a Feb 2016 delivery 130 Cab Chassis with the following bits:
ARB bar
Mulgo Ex Box
Winch ( from the Jeep)
Lots of Dynamat
Exhaust wrap
Stock Suspension
7"rims with Hankook muddies replacing the 6.5" wolf rims with MTRs
The Defender has done Maralinga, The Anne Beadell, Googs track as well as some High country touring. The setup I have with a removable pod allows us to carry everything we need without having to worry about load. The girls complain about the lack of rear legroom particularly now that they are teenagers but they survive. Out of the box it is not as capable as the Disco 3, proven on Macfarlaines track last Easter, failing to proceed where Disco 3s and 4s went and where I have driven my Disco 3 with no issues. Despite this it is a capable tourer and the only things I would add are a rear locker and maybe a sill tank (I used a 200ltr transfer tank on the desert trip, the luxury of being able to carry lots of stuff)

I would be happy to take either vehicle on just about any trip and the difference between them comes down to their daily use, SWMBO drives the Jeep every day but the Defender is mostly a farm truck and tourer and sits in the shed most of the week. I think driving it every day would probably get tiresome, particularly through Canberra traffic.

143947
The rest of the convoy wasn't brave enough to follow us through here but we were keen.....

143948
As Mentioned the Disco 3 and 4s made it up here but I ran out of traction.



Regards,
Tote

[Homestar]

My only comment is based on my Neighbours who have a Wrangler - they love it and it hasn't given them any issues in the few years of ownership but fuel consumption of the petrol engine in it is 15LPH on the highway and clost to 20LPH around town - ouch. That's what they average with it after around 3 years of ownership and around 100,000KM on the clock now. If fuel economy is important in your descision, check out a Jeep forum ask that question to confirm it. My 86 Range Rover V8 does close to those figues...

[G.man]

Thanks for the feedback.

If I went a wrangler it would be the 2.8 CRD diesel not the petrol model. I also would be looking at 2010 as the last one to buy as the 2010 model was the last to be made without a DPF filter. Once 2011 came, they changed the interior (which I don't like, looks too car like rather than 4x4 like) and the Diesels got DPFs and EGR's that people get deleted (illegal to delete even though everyone does).

In the defender, I would be looking at the 4 Door I assume as it has much more space seats down than a 2 door yes? Same reason the 2 door JK wrangler was no good to me... can't fit anything in that. 4 Door with seats out and roof rack = decent space.

It is just my wife and I... rear seats would be down so I would have space to carry stuff, same as would be in the JKU wrangler... either down or taken out rear seats to have the max space available in the rear.

Are all Defenders Manual? Is there a way to get it in Auto?

What is the Diesel specs... i know the 2.8 CRD in wrangler is a pretty good motor and has 400/460? Nm of torque which is pretty good. You can fit a cummins Diesel in the wrangler too if you wanted to.

Defender - what can be done here?

Anyone around the Sydney area (Richmond/Windsor direction) with a Defender and got some spare time to show?

Before I forget... reliability wise? - So many people (Toyota people) say not to touch Land rovers. Anything goes wrong remote Australia (Northern territory, Kimberleys, Gibbs river road etc etc etc) and you could be waiting months to have the car sorted out and nobody knows how to do anything on them. But people that own Toyotas say that about jeeps too and I know many jeep people that only ever had problems with Toyotas and none with the Jeep. So...

And again - is the 200L fuel tank really necessary or is the 140L the Diesel wrangler can get more than enough (practically speaking)?

And lastly, perhaps how I plan to use it...

Living near Sydney, I want to go to Lithgow, Zigzag railway etc as there are 4x4 tracks out that way that go over river crossings etc, the Watagans north of Sydney, Warren bungles and whatever else is worth going to look at... I also want to go to the victorian high country, up to cape york, across to Alice springs and doing the west/east McDonald ranges, along with the hot springs (hot springs are accessible only via 4x4), Gibbs river road, the Kimberleys, Flinders ranges and so on.

Basically want to see all the great stuff to see with some 4x4 tracks... I am not the sort of person who is going to just jump in his car on the weekend and go blow fuel on climbing tracks just for the hell of doing something for fun. Unless I am going 'somewhere' I don't see the point to wearing the car out. I like tracks with a purpose, maybe a lookout at the end or something rather, not just some banged up road in the forest where you cant see anything but trees and the whole purpose of it is just for 4x4 fun... I won't be doing that. Maybe if there was a fishing hole or camping spot somewhere through that difficult track... I would do it (as I am trying to get somewhere), but just for the hell of running the car through holes, mud and whatever else when there is a smooth dirt road right next to it going to the same place... well, I would take the smooth dirt road right next to it.

[ozscott]

Having a JK wrangler 4 door and a Defender 130 in the family maybe I can add some value. Both vehicles have been reliable, The JK is a 2011 petrol model with 240,000 KM now and has the following bits:
Rhino roof Rack
ARB Bar
2" lift with Bilstein shocks
265/70 Mickey Thompson STZ tyres on original rims (transformed the ride and handling)
When we did the Tassie trip we had a winch on the front which made a noticeable difference to the handling

We've done a 4wd trip to Tassie and can't fault it off road but with 2 Adults and two Kids it struggled to carry all our stuff, we worked around this by base camping and doing day trips but we took the transit sections pretty easy. What you say about the Wrangler's capability is pretty accurate with the few mods we have done it was easily as capable as the other vehicles on the trip which included Patrols, LC75s, Prados etc. The Jeep, like the Defender is an acquired taste and after you drive one you will love it or hate it but SWMBO loves hers and I don't mind it.

The Defender replaced a Disco3 and is a Feb 2016 delivery 130 Cab Chassis with the following bits:
ARB bar
Mulgo Ex Box
Winch ( from the Jeep)
Lots of Dynamat
Exhaust wrap
Stock Suspension
7"rims with Hankook muddies replacing the 6.5" wolf rims with MTRs
The Defender has done Maralinga, The Anne Beadell, Googs track as well as some High country touring. The setup I have with a removable pod allows us to carry everything we need without having to worry about load. The girls complain about the lack of rear legroom particularly now that they are teenagers but they survive. Out of the box it is not as capable as the Disco 3, proven on Macfarlaines track last Easter, failing to proceed where Disco 3s and 4s went and where I have driven my Disco 3 with no issues. Despite this it is a capable tourer and the only things I would add are a rear locker and maybe a sill tank (I used a 200ltr transfer tank on the desert trip, the luxury of being able to carry lots of stuff)

I would be happy to take either vehicle on just about any trip and the difference between them comes down to their daily use, SWMBO drives the Jeep every day but the Defender is mostly a farm truck and tourer and sits in the shed most of the week. I think driving it every day would probably get tiresome, particularly through Canberra traffic.

143947
The rest of the convoy wasn't brave enough to follow us through here but we were keen.....

143948
As Mentioned the Disco 3 and 4s made it up here but I ran out of traction.



Regards,
ToteAm I right in saying that the 130 misses out on TCS? If so can understand it not making it given the axle twisters and no ability here for some momentum. But with lockers the 130 in those conditions would own that climb compared to d4/4. Cheers.

[JoeFriend]

Thanks for the feedback.

If I went a wrangler it would be the 2.8 CRD diesel not the petrol model. I also would be looking at 2010 as the last one to buy as the 2010 model was the last to be made without a DPF filter. Once 2011 came, they changed the interior (which I don't like, looks too car like rather than 4x4 like) and the Diesels got DPFs and EGR's that people get deleted (illegal to delete even though everyone does).

In the defender, I would be looking at the 4 Door I assume as it has much more space seats down than a 2 door yes? Same reason the 2 door JK wrangler was no good to me... can't fit anything in that. 4 Door with seats out and roof rack = decent space.

It is just my wife and I... rear seats would be down so I would have space to carry stuff, same as would be in the JKU wrangler... either down or taken out rear seats to have the max space available in the rear.

Are all Defenders Manual? Is there a way to get it in Auto?

What is the Diesel specs... i know the 2.8 CRD in wrangler is a pretty good motor and has 400/460? Nm of torque which is pretty good. You can fit a cummins Diesel in the wrangler too if you wanted to.

Defender - what can be done here?

Anyone around the Sydney area (Richmond/Windsor direction) with a Defender and got some spare time to show?

Before I forget... reliability wise? - So many people (Toyota people) say not to touch Land rovers. Anything goes wrong remote Australia (Northern territory, Kimberleys, Gibbs river road etc etc etc) and you could be waiting months to have the car sorted out and nobody knows how to do anything on them. But people that own Toyotas say that about jeeps too and I know many jeep people that only ever had problems with Toyotas and none with the Jeep. So...

And again - is the 200L fuel tank really necessary or is the 140L the Diesel wrangler can get more than enough (practically speaking)?

And lastly, perhaps how I plan to use it...

Living near Sydney, I want to go to Lithgow, Zigzag railway etc as there are 4x4 tracks out that way that go over river crossings etc, the Watagans north of Sydney, Warren bungles and whatever else is worth going to look at... I also want to go to the victorian high country, up to cape york, across to Alice springs and doing the west/east McDonald ranges, along with the hot springs (hot springs are accessible only via 4x4), Gibbs river road, the Kimberleys, Flinders ranges and so on.

Basically want to see all the great stuff to see with some 4x4 tracks... I am not the sort of person who is going to just jump in his car on the weekend and go blow fuel on climbing tracks just for the hell of doing something for fun. Unless I am going 'somewhere' I don't see the point to wearing the car out. I like tracks with a purpose, maybe a lookout at the end or something rather, not just some banged up road in the forest where you cant see anything but trees and the whole purpose of it is just for 4x4 fun... I won't be doing that. Maybe if there was a fishing hole or camping spot somewhere through that difficult track... I would do it (as I am trying to get somewhere), but just for the hell of running the car through holes, mud and whatever else when there is a smooth dirt road right next to it going to the same place... well, I would take the smooth dirt road right next to it.Changing the defender to auto is possibly, but can be pricey, this would depend on which model as well.

2.2 and 2.4 Pumas have the Ford transit engine in them, so if someone can't work on them then well I would be super surprised. It seems the major issues are driveline related in the Puma, which are generally sorted if you are buying something circa 8 years old, and it's more wear and tear.

If you are going all the way back to a late model TD5 defender, then there are only a few things that stop forward momentum engine wise, and are easy to carry around (CPS being one of them). A well maintained engine is pretty reliable, the very early models had head issues, but I got 345k KMs out of mine before an engine swap, and I haven't whipped the head off to really see what is wrong yet.

Both can be easily remapped to get 150-170bhp and 350nm of torque for the TD5 and a little over 400 in the Puma. That's with no mechanical alterations, intercooler upgrades and the like will increase this and give better reliability.

[MLD]

Defenders only came in manual. There are a few aftermarket conversions but those rarely come up for sale.

Frankly the CRD engine in the Wrangler is superior to the Puma engine in spades. More NM, smoother. I've heard, antidotally, it is reliable. The Puma engine in a D90 is spritely. In a D110 is more than adequate (when loaded for a long trip) and in a D130 (fully loaded) it is underpowered. The fridge like shape of the defender is its greatest limitation on the hwy iro fuel consumption. A tuned defender will only give you NM of a stock Wrangler CRD. As for the Cummins conversion, the kit is the ISF2.8 and it puts out the same NM as the Puma defender (360nm). More than adequate in the JK which it is pitched at. DeBruiser in the US converted a 4 door.

As for outback touring. The reality is, if you drive anything more modern than an 80 series toyo you will struggle to find parts on the shelf in small towns. Larger towns and towns with mining in the district will have a current 70 series on the shelf. Just because there is a dealership in the town doesn't mean they carry parts on the shelf. I live near Wollongong and the local Ford dealership had to order in parts that are consumables. As for diagnosis of problems in a LR. If you get a pre 1999, any mechanic with a rubber mallet and set of spanners will get you going again. 1999 to 2007 the TD5 is unique to LR and there is no parts support in the bush. The ECU is simple and can be ready with any basic diagnostic tool. The engine is bullet proof if you maintain it and watch overheating. The post 2007 Puma engine is a ford transit engine (also found in the Ford Ranger 2.2) and by and large is a robust engine. The ECU coding is a tweaked J1939 protocol and can be read with any commercial grade diagnostic machine. There are plenty of aftermarket diagnostic tools for the ECU for road side fault finding. I've done my share of remote touring and each time the truck gave me trouble it was forewarned well in advance and i ignored the warning signs. That's the same for any vehicle.

If your comments are reflective of the type of 4wding, i'm not sure why you are fixated on 4wd capability. Driving a forest trail to a camp or fishing spot is within the capability of any modern 4wd. Its only when you step up to rock crawling, mud plugging or similar technical driving that the shortcomings of a stock 4wd bubble to the surface. Each wheel base has its nemesis, you can put 2 different 4wd's on a track and each will struggle at different times. Wheel placement, wheel base, chassis clearance, type of tyres. There are a multitude of factors that differentiate between progress or not.

Personally, i think you will tire of the space limitations of a Wrangler for long distance touring. It's a RPITA to unpack the back each day to get to stuff that is jammed. I had a 110 and toured in that, now have a 130. IMHumbleO 130 is superior to the 110 in spades both for weekend warrior technical 4wding and for touring. The longer wheel base allows the truck to ride the wombat holes made by the shorter wheel based vehicles and on country roads the long wheel base soaks up the corrugations/washouts while maintaining a level of civility in its handling. The storage in the back is set up with everything has its place and everything in its place. I don't need to unpack half the truck to get to stuff.

i answered earlier the Q about fuel. If you carry 200 ltr of fuel all the time you will break stuff and use more fuel in the process. Carry as much as required for the situation and for the few times you need 200 ltr, the cheapest option is jerry cans. When my truck was fully loaded at the beginning of my recent trip it was a pig to drive. As i used up fuel, water and food it handled better and fuel consumption reduced.

I get the impression that you are faintly testing the waters for someone to talk you out of the Wrangler. Follow your heart. That's what is going to give you the Big Smile on your dial as you putter down the forest trail to that splendid camp spot that only you know about. That same spot that has fish the size of whales that taste as sweet as honey. If you find its shortcomings to your needs, you sell it and buy something more fitting. Do you still drive your first car? I don't and have owned too many to count in the journey to a content heart.

[rick130]

No factory auto on a Deefer and no TC/ABS on a 130, hence it's nice to have a locker/s.

Re reliability, one of the best LR dealers in the country is based in Alice Springs.
When I first went up there nearly twenty years ago I was amazed at how many Defenders and Discos were running around. At the time I didn't drive a Defender. It was an eye opener.
And having mum and step dad in Alice, I know how many late model vehicles are trucked back to Adelaide of all makes as they can't be fixed there. Trucks are going back full each week.
At least with a Landy it gets repaired there.
BTW my step dad was a long term Land Cruiser driver but they switched to a Defender in about '97.
Until last year's they've had Land Rover's since, traveled all over the top end, central Australia and the northwest and never been stuck by a break down. Some silly little things, and their Disco was dead reliable, until I took it over....[emoji848] Bloody thing stuck me up in the Flinders last year, but it was going the next day thanks to Chris in Hawker.
Ask a couple of the blokes on here who work on Land Cruisers how long they've had to wait for parts on occasion to be flown or worse, shipped from Japan.
They are all as bad as each other now, no one manufacturer keeps an extensive range of spares.

I came from Jeeps, grew up with them and every drive in a Deefer is an adventure, they grown on you.
Like warts [emoji23]

I still miss mine.

[MLD]

Am I right in saying that the 130 misses out on TCS? If so can understand it not making it given the axle twisters and no ability here for some momentum. But with lockers the 130 in those conditions would own that climb compared to d4/4. Cheers.

AFAIK TC only came in the MY15/16 D130. Not even a tick a box option prior to that.

[Tote]

Am I right in saying that the 130 misses out on TCS? If so can understand it not making it given the axle twisters and no ability here for some momentum. But with lockers the 130 in those conditions would own that climb compared to d4/4. Cheers.

Nope, It has traction control. The climb in question I may have made it up if I had been in second instead of low but the point is the discos on the trip and my previous D3 walked up there with no worries. As we were in a convoy and I was in the middle I didn't have a chance to try more than a couple of approaches and I have since learnt a bit more about how to drive the Defender 's traction control when we were at Solihull earlier this year. Showing the instructor that picture and asking how it could be done better resulted in a very educational couple of hours in a 110.

Regards,
Tote

[Pickles2]

Anyone on here will tell you that Defender is "special", very special. But YOU have to think it is.
As someone else has said, YOU need to drive both, then make up your own mind.
Personally, from the tone of your posts, I think you like the Jeep, you're a bit "sold" on it, & that's absolutely fair enough.
Have you driven a Defender?......It's a unique experience!!! Have you driven the Jeep model of your choice?
But anyway, I reckon that if you spend an hour or two in each, ya'll soon make up your own mind.
Pickles.

[rick130]

Sorry, I keep forgetting that the last few years had TC.

As mentioned, previous years of 130's couldn't even be optioned TC and ABS

[djam1]

Sorry, I keep forgetting that the last few years had TC.

As mentioned, previous years of 130's couldn't even be optioned TC and ABS

My 2002 defender has TC and Electric windows but its a 110

[ozscott]

YEp the early gen TC's were very good but needed to be driven and without knowing the methods they were lack lustre. Knowing the ins and outs meant they did very well especially combined with long travel suspension and beam axles. Cheers

[G.man]

I am not sold on Jeep. I am actually trying to work out why I would choose one over the other.

Uhm...

Luggage space wise, I assume if you took the rear seats out in a defender and a JKU 4 door wrangler... the defender will have more space (square like space too)

Only few things to ask based on a video I saw... YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsY5umMfUxg)

The guy testing the 2 cars out...

1: The Wrangler is much 'easier' to drive off-road. It has a much wider wheel track to the defender. - How does a wider wheel track make a car 'better' off-road? Or is this something where in one situation wider is better and in another narrower?

2: The Wrangler has much more wheel travel than the Defender giving it traction when wheels want to get up off the ground while the defender loses traction due to limited wheel travel. - Are there any upgrades one can do to give it more wheel travel/articulation?

3: It seems the Wrangler is more stable while the Defender bounces around a lot like a boat... is that just how that is, or things can be done to improve this so it does not feel like it is going to tip over?

4: The Defender lets dust etc inside as the doors do not seal properly? - Uhm?

5: The boot space is huge on a defender and nice and square, however, the door in the rear is narrow. - Is this going to pose a problem fitting things in like camping tables, fridges etc... or is this one of those quirks you either get used to or don't? - Hard to imagine a fridge with a sliding door... can't even be done when the rear is not fully open... any comments?

I am quite interested in the Defender as it looks like an armoured vehicle and you rarely see them around, just trying to do some homework on it :)

O and since people are saying I need to go sit in one etc, which makes sense... anyone around Sydney (castle hill, Dural Windsor, Blacktown, Richmond, that side of sydney) that has a few min for wife and I to come have a look? - You have us very interested. Send me a PM on that I suppose.

[ozscott]

Look at legal weight carrying capacity too. The Defender 110 even is so far ahead of the Jeep in that criteria is not funny (towing, load in vehicle, load on roof). One is a very capable tourer and one is a weekend fun truck. That's the truth of it.

Cheers

[ozscott]

As for wheel travel I believe only the Rubicion has more due solely to sway bar disconnects. Install those on a Deefer and its ahead again. Land Rover's offroad ride in its live axle vehicles is renound for comfort, stability and control. They have a low COG due to alloy or in D2 alloy inside steel and ruggedness. Cheers

[martnH]

I will be honest here.
Defenders look great.
For that, I have put up with many of her faults. this love is irrational...... Many of us name our defenders
Mine is named BenBen
Are you going to name your wrangler?....

Quality control is terrible on a defender. Mine leaked water bolts loose from factory. etc....
Zero cents spent on research and development as land Rover pretty much gave defender up. They have no intention to build defender better....

I like the latest wrangler LJ. Especially The full time 4wd version

I still remember when the 4 door wrangler first came out, the unlimited edition, some said they are the next gen defender.

Guess what they were right

[ozscott]

Look they cant be a Defender when you cant legally load them up for proper touring. What they can legally carry is quite pathetic in my opinion. Cheers.

[LRJim]

What cars have you previously owned?
If your worried about dust getting in your doors then can you really handle a defender? Or any land rover? Dust in your doors is the least of your worries, hope you have a crappy looking driveway. 6 months of having any land rover and it will look like a Dalmatian.
Can you handle a set of spanners and constantly getting on your back?
Getting a wet head or groin?
Having no safety features?
Don't forget all these awesome parts of owning a LR.

[dazzler]

Nope, It has traction control. The climb in question I may have made it up if I had been in second instead of low but the point is the discos on the trip and my previous D3 walked up there with no worries. As we were in a convoy and I was in the middle I didn't have a chance to try more than a couple of approaches and I have since learnt a bit more about how to drive the Defender 's traction control when we were at Solihull earlier this year. Showing the instructor that picture and asking how it could be done better resulted in a very educational couple of hours in a 110.

Regards,
Tote


Writeup?

[ozscott]

What cars have you previously owned?
If your worried about dust getting in your doors then can you really handle a defender? Or any land rover? Dust in your doors is the least of your worries, hope you have a crappy looking driveway. 6 months of having any land rover and it will look like a Dalmatian.
Can you handle a set of spanners and constantly getting on your back?
Getting a wet head or groin?
Having no safety features?
Don't forget all these awesome parts of owning a LR.No safety features except all.wheel drive, low COG for a big 4wd, and the crumple zones (read...the other vehicle that has the misfortune to have a head on with a Deefer).
Cheers

[MLD]

Many of us name our defenders
Mine is named BenBen

an example of when you ask your 3 year old daughter what you should name the car. [bigrolf] Or is it so good you had to name it twice?

[LRJim]

No safety features except all.wheel drive, low COG for a big 4wd, and the crumple zones (read...the other vehicle that has the misfortune to have a head on with a Deefer).
CheersYeah I was gonna edit it out but I think hed want something with all the pillows and sensors lol

[rick130]

The front axle of a Wrangler will easily outflex a Deefer.

The Deefer can be improved, my old girl could max out 10" travel shocks pretty easily but you need to know what you're doing, it takes a bit of fiddling.
Just the problem of radius arms plus panhard vs a four link plus panhard.
Radius arma tend to bind up when articulating.
Lockers fix this!

The rear end of a Deefer articulates too easily in comparison, so most of us actually restrict it a little to balance flex.
I used to run 11" travel shocks in the rear but you can get huge flex out of the back end. It looks impressive but it's unbalanced and unstable IMO.

The 110/130 Defender is a goods carrying/work vehicle and that's how the suspension is setup from the factory.
A 130 can legally carry 1300kg!
The chassis is more than strong enough to cope. The rear diff in post '02 models isn't up to snuff, IMO.
The t/case in very late model ones is sub standard thanks to Land Rover cost cutting, but it can be rebuilt into a very strong unit.

Early 110's had really soft rear springs, softish fronts and a load leveler to keep the rear end up.
They rode like and flexed like an old Range Rover.

The lack of sealing isn't just the doors, there are bloody holes everywhere, unsealed joints, silly stuff like felt instead of flocked rubber for Bailey channel in sliding windows, the list goes on.
You need to be aware of this and go in with your eyes open.
If you can't cope or don't want to spend ridiculous hours trying to weatherproof the inside, walk away now.

[martnH]

an example of when you ask your 3 year old daughter what you should name the car. [bigrolf] Or is it so good you had to name it twice?Name it after my dog haha.

[rick130]

I could never bring myself to name mine, it was always "the Landy" or "the Defender"
It just didn't seem right......

[Homestar]

To the OP - have you driven either/both yet? Might be a pretty easy decision once you do - either way. [emoji4]

[G.man]

No I have not driven either.

Only 4x4 I been in is an 80 series land cruiser with the 1HD-FT multi valve turbo diesel. That was awesome. Sounded like a truck, interior was like a truck, it was what I expected a 4x4 to be like.

I don't like all the modern stuff. That is why I limited myself to the 2010 wrangler due to its older utilitarian type interior... no weird buttons and controls on the steering wheel, just a a horn.

Since I come from a muscle car background... I like things simple inside without all the buttons and whatever else they got.

But regarding the holes and stuff... are you serious? So if it rains, the car gets all wet inside or what? I don't care if there is dust in the car from 4x4ing, what I care is that it is sealed properly like any regular car. I mean hell, even muscle cars didn't leak inside due to some 'holes'. ???

RE: wheel travel, it can be improved if I wanted to spend the $ to do so. Check.

RE: What cars I previously owned. None in 4x4. This is new to me that is why some questions may seem odd. I come as stated from a muscle car background where aftermarket and mods are endless like the Wrangler. So I wondered how much of a "you can personalise" room in a defender is there, is the aftermarket support huge, or is it one of those odd 4x4 where you are lucky to even find what you need and any 'aftermarket' parts/add ons I want to do have to be hand crafted because nobody makes anything for it. I like to personalise a vehicle to be what I envision it to be 'ultimately'. Is there room for that with the Defender or is the aftermarket world very limited and you only have a few options... that is where I am coming from.

[weeds]

Where are you located...if you were anywhere near Brisbane you’d be more than welcome to check mine out

Getting 200L fuel capacity in a defer means at least three new tanks.....Er might be able to get close with 2 tanks but I cannot think of a combination.

What your budget.....

Your dollar will probably stretch further with a Jeep

[rick130]

A Defender is a meccano set on wheels.

The body is riveted and bolted together, that's no seam sealed, it's built the way they did it in 1948 and was basically hand built until the end.
No complex pressings spot welded and seam sealed.

Most of us have experienced wet boots while driving in the rain, either the seam where the roof attaches to the windscreen frame or the seam between the frame and bulkhead leaks.

[cripesamighty]

I've had two Defenders (TD5 and Puma) and both didn't leak. This may help.....

143970

[ozscott]

I see the payload has improved with this new model. In Rubicon 4 door up by about 80kg (lots of weight saving with alloy) Funny though cause it's still, for such long tough looking vehicle, 100kg less capable than a humble and now nearly 2 decade old Disco 2...(110 and 130.Deefer higher again) and the Disco 2 (and 110/130) tows 2000kg (yep 2000kg) more than the 4 door Rubicon. Crazy stuff. Doesnt give me any confidence in the structural strentgh of the Wrangler (the diffs of the Ruby are certainly up to higher loads...). And if you have or think you will have anything over about an 18 foot fiberglass boat or half.decent van strike the Wrangler off your list straight away. It's the extremely low tow.rating which helps give it the rep of being more a toy.

Cheers

[LRJim]

Funny though cause it's still, for such long tough looking vehicle, 100kg less capable than a humble and now nearly 2 decade old Disco 2...(110 and 130.Deefer higher again) and the Disco 2 (and 110/130) tows 2000kg (yep 2000kg) more than the 4 door Rubicon.

Don't forget the 4t towload of the D1 i find it handles 4.5 ish fine. Only letdown is the auto box on the V8 gotta be super gentle with it. Crazy weights towed by a small 4x4

[ozscott]

Yep LR Jim very strong chassis. My 95 D1 has 4000kg in the handbook if the dealer stamped it. My brother used it to tow a very heavy car trailer and GQ Patrol comp truck and some other bits and total weight was just over 4000kg and the 3.9V8 auto towed it quite well. Too short a wheel base to be towing that over long distances or higher speeds for too long. Cheers

[G.man]

Where are you located...if you were anywhere near Brisbane you’d be more than welcome to check mine out

Getting 200L fuel capacity in a defer means at least three new tanks.....Er might be able to get close with 2 tanks but I cannot think of a combination.

What your budget.....

Your dollar will probably stretch further with a Jeep

I am in Sydney.

Thanks for the replies...

I actually don't want to tow anything, not even a camper trailer. That is the only reason I was thinking the Wrangler 4 door may not be big enough. Sure if I attach a camper trailer I can fit everything I want... but... then I have to tow something and I rather just be me and the car without anything being towed... unless I tow a caravan (wifes Idea)... yeah.

Probably why space was a big thing for me.

How does a fridge fit inside a defender with slide out draws etc when the door is so narrow? - That is the only thing I'm seeing as... Defender has huge space, but the door makes it defeat the purpose of the space its got. Any way around this problem or it is not a problem?

I guess what I am really trying to say with everything when I evaluate myself... I like to have something I can personalise and make my own.

EG: Spend $30,000 on a wrangler Turbo Diesel... then throw 50,000 at it to modify it. Lift it, bigger wheels, more wheel travel, diff locks front and rear, personalise the interior a little, custom touches (looks wise, lights etc)... the last thing I want to do is add all that extra stuff (spending all that extra to make it my own) to then think "I should of got the other vehicle".

That is what I want to avoid. I want to buy a 4x4 I will be happy to throw another 50,000 at to change and make my own, a real beast, a keeper for life. That is probably why I am asking about, diff locks, wheel travel and all the other stuff and what after market availability is there for the Defender to really spend on and make personal, something that will perform in extreme 4x4 situations (like the wranglers do) but NOT being a wrangler if you will. Something I can spend on and keep for life knowing it is exactly what I want it to be.

[JoeFriend]

I am in Sydney.

Thanks for the replies...

I actually don't want to tow anything, not even a camper trailer. That is the only reason I was thinking the Wrangler 4 door may not be big enough. Sure if I attach a camper trailer I can fit everything I want... but... then I have to tow something and I rather just be me and the car without anything being towed... unless I tow a caravan (wifes Idea)... yeah.

Probably why space was a big thing for me.

How does a fridge fit inside a defender with slide out draws etc when the door is so narrow? - That is the only thing I'm seeing as... Defender has huge space, but the door makes it defeat the purpose of the space its got. Any way around this problem or it is not a problem?

I guess what I am really trying to say with everything when I evaluate myself... I like to have something I can personalise and make my own.

EG: Spend $30,000 on a wrangler Turbo Diesel... then throw 50,000 at it to modify it. Lift it, bigger wheels, more wheel travel, diff locks front and rear, personalise the interior a little, custom touches (looks wise, lights etc)... the last thing I want to do is add all that extra stuff (spending all that extra to make it my own) to then think "I should of got the other vehicle".

That is what I want to avoid. I want to buy a 4x4 I will be happy to throw another 50,000 at to change and make my own, a real beast, a keeper for life. That is probably why I am asking about, diff locks, wheel travel and all the other stuff and what after market availability is there for the Defender to really spend on and make personal, something that will perform in extreme 4x4 situations (like the wranglers do) but NOT being a wrangler if you will. Something I can spend on and keep for life knowing it is exactly what I want it to be.I am in Sydney and you are welcome to check my set up to see how I have done it for touring.

Line others have said, if you want to do it the defender is great, you just may need to spend money to get others to build stuff for you or if you are handy on the tools yourself you can build it out yourself. I can go away for a week with all gear to ride my bike, full camp kitchen, gas cooktop, the works and all you will see if you looked in the windows is a flat carpeted deck, camp mattress rolled up and a table.

Mine is a 2000 model TD5, with a newly installed engine (120k KMs on it), larger intercooler and a remap. Got a few other mods done to the engine so not standard but most of what people would do to set one up.

[cripesamighty]

I found the doors not to be too much of a hindrance in mine (even after now owning a D1 and D3). There are plenty of ways of fitting fridges (behind front seats, pull out slide on top of drawers, etc) plus making sure everything else is easy enough to get to. If you want to go the extra mile for access, you can replace the rear sliding windows with gullwing lift up doors.

The great thing about Defenders is they are a mechano set and easily modified with every type of accessory known to man (and woman) available for them via OEM or aftermarket sellers. I travelled all over Australia with my partner at the time, and never had a problem with space, even when lugging caving and climbing gear. The more space you have, the more you tend to fill it though, and the heavier you get. Ask any 130 owner!

[MLD]

How does a fridge fit inside a defender with slide out draws etc when the door is so narrow? - That is the only thing I'm seeing as... Defender has huge space, but the door makes it defeat the purpose of the space its got. Any way around this problem or it is not a problem?

your concerns about access to the rear has been sorted by many enterprising minds before you.

Google "Defender Gullwing window" and look at the images. It's a neat solution to compartmentalise the rear of a 110 into 3 storage areas. 2 on the side through the windows and the main access through the rear. (pic stolen off web)

143975

Google Drifta L/R DEFENDER - STORAGE DRAWERS PACKAGE $1275 - Drifta Camping & 4WD (https://www.drifta.com.au/lr-defender-storage-drawers-package/) for ideas how to set up storage in the rear of a 110.

Go visit Daniel (Mulgo) 4x4 Land Rover Toyota Nissan Frontrunner Touring Online Store - Expedition Centre Overlander (https://www.expeditioncentre.com.au) for other ideas to set up a 110 for touring.

I put my fridge in the back seat section by removing the seat box, installed a water tank where the seat box was and fridge on top. You can put that little triangle (bottom of pic) on a hinge and rotate the fridge 90 deg on a slide out. Baby Vile fitted a 60 ltr fridge in his 110 on a slide out. The options are endless and only limited by physics and your imagination.

143974

I suggest hitting search terms in Google for what concerns you and see what others have done to overcome actual or perceived shortcomings.

In answer to your aftermarket parts Q - while not as extensive as the market for Wranglers. In the UK, Europe, Sth Africa and Oz there is a plethora of aftermarket bits and bobs to make your Defender go faster, stand taller, flex harder, turn all 4 wheels at once, body protection. You name your problem, there is a solution out there. One of the benefits of having the same basic design since 1948 and in current shape since 1984.

If you have time and the inclination to drive to Lithgow this weekend there is Kanafari (a LR club gathering) (someone on here will have the details). I expect there will be a plethora of examples to poke around and you will be inundated by the weirdy beardies (as my wife calls them) that will impart a lifetime of wisdom.

To see a highly modified defender and similarly modified 4 door wrangler in action is to join the boys from Responsible & Technical 4wDriving NSW on FB for a day out.

[weeds]

$80k would get you a well set up defer....have a look at nuggets 130 in the markets

[MLD]

Wish i had budget of $80k to kick off my first 4wd. I bought an old tired 110 and tinkered with it. Then with the benefit of experience bought the 130 and set about building it to my needs. I bumped into Wayne in Birdsville, what a fantastic first 4wd. Like climbing mount Everest as your first mountain ascent.

We have all, per the OP, focussed on the defender. Lets be honest the D1 and D2 are capable 4wds for what is required by the OP. Have a barn door rear access, out of the box flexes like the defender (with a few modest suspension mods will flex as well as required for all but the extreme of tracks) and the same aftermarket support that adorns the defender. The D2 has TC and in TD5 auto guise will be a fantastic tourer. Both are simple and if well maintained will give years of happy service. Only thing missing is the panache of the defender. The D4 can be got for sub $40k these days and, frankly, the best all round 4x4 on the market. Fast and comfortable, handles great both on tar and dirt, loads of space, reasonable aftermarket support. While D4 owners might not take to complaining about their vehicle with such religious vigour as do Defender owners but i'm yet to hear of a D4 that left someone stranded in the outback in a critical way. Food for though.

[mikegf]

For my 10c worth, everything here is correct - including the fact that the Defender can be an acquired taste and at some point you will get wet feet (finally got some Wurth "dum dum" so feet are finally dry now). I got my 110 in 2003 when I was in WA to go north. Only two options for load carrying were Defender and Troopy. Went with the Defender (at $20K less new) and haven't looked back. I added all the necessary touring stuff (winch, battery, rear drawers, roof rack, LR tank, HF/UHF, fridge etc) but did no mechanical mods. Went everywhere in the Pilbara and Kimberley without an issue. Wife and three kids, enough food for 3 weeks, 80L water etc, 2nd spare, small genny etc. Reckon I was smack bang on GVM when fully loaded and had no issues.

All of the reliability issues I have had over the years have been factory-build related (steering box, front diff, gearbox etc) from poor build/setup. Most of these issues should have already been sorted in a used machine.

Like many others I can't stress the need to look at one (esp someone who has a good touring setup) and more importantly drive one. They are quirky and can be uncomfortable if you are like me at 6'1" and somewhat north of a 30 BMI! but even I am so used to it I don't notice (and it is much more comfy than my 89 Canter petrol tipper!!!). But I don't regret buying it for one minute.

[G.man]

Thanks for the feedback.

Showed wife the pop top that can be done on the Defender... she told me as a little toddler when the family used to go out four wheel driving, they had a Land rover, double clutch something rather.

She loves the idea of the land rover more than the jeep now that I shared the thoughts from here and images.

So thanks :soapbox:

Terms of space... I am not a big build person. 5'9 and slim/normal build.

What sold me on the jeeps in the first place... watch this: YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bXIU9XVNak), and then this one YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSs9cOwoCJ8) - pay attention to what is being said.

Those 2 4x4s make everything look easy. I watched MOAB in the USA, everyone runs Jeeps on that. 37" is like the standard go-to size and it makes all those tracks (like in the videos) look very easy to climb over and it makes the jeep itself look more monster truck like which I do like. In that second video, the guy talks about minimal body roll for driving and more wheel flex etc which really makes that look like a solid 4x4, not one that rocks around like a boat feeling like it wants to tip over and at the same time, he also runs 37" wheels on his wrangler it just looks right.

That is why (without ever having one or being in one) I started really liking the idea of a jeep. It just looks right at home off-road. Rather than looking like a car on big wheels (Landcruiser), it actually looks like it is meant to be in the bush doing that. Really looks great. Whether I would be happy in it or not due to all the limited space etc... well, that is another story.

I guess that is why I was 'set' on 37" wheels, just to be able to do all that sort of stuff with ease and stability like those wranglers do it.

If the Defender can do all that no problem, just as easy and stable and be built like those wranglers are, to have that same sort of raised big wheel monster truck look and yet still has the awesome space of a defender that the wrangler does not have... well, then it is definitely on my list to test out.

[MLD]

first off, engineering 37" rubber in NSW will take a lot of persuading the engineer. AFAIK National Standards are 75mm (50mm lift, 25mm rubber) and permissible to 125mm with engineering. A Rubicon has 245/75R17 rubber from the factory. That's 31.5" in the old money. You use up your 5" (125mm) going from stock rubber to 37's. Not to mention the lift for clearance for the guards.

I know of 2 defenders running around on 37" rubber. One is a mini monster truck on portals and the other is CAL415 (Mick). Stepping up to 37" rubber, even in a Rubicon, comes with it upgraded diffs (diff centres, CV's and half shafts), HD prop shafts, HD steering arms and panhard rods, and the list goes on. Driving and steering 37" puts strain on your wheel bearings and cv's and will require flares that will stick out of the body panel to an unattractive state. To fit 37" rubber under a Rubicon will likely require trimming of panels or a lift that gives clearance (a defender needs a health trim of the guards). Lots of work to get 37" onto a vehicle and have it reliable.

35" v 37" (no idea why its inverted)

143989

Anyway, we are all entitled to fantasise about what could be. If 37's rock you boat, more power to you. But you won't need them for the type of driving you expect to do. Those trucks in the video's were not cheap to set up. i'm sure they are more capable than the tracks show in the video. Those tracks were tame in the scheme of what is out there.

[ozscott]

G.man my D2 with max load, 31 inch Duratracs on 16s, and a modest 2 - 3 inch lift had no problems at all at Cape York and the Old Tele Track. More capable with just traction control (ie no locking front or rear diff) than the late air suspended D3 and late D4 with me. Sure there are some tracks where more clearance and say 33s would be required but they are very heavy duty compared to anywhere else popular with those doing genuine offroad touring. 37's...wow. I cant imagine anything short of (serious) comp trucks that would need 37's. I mean even Jeep Rubes do the Rubicon trail with 32-33 inch... want are you going to do with 37's man?! Would probably drive like a pig too especially lane changes and roundabouts etc.

Cheers

[G.man]

With wheels like that... who needs to change lanes or go around the roundabout.[bigrolf]

[noyakfat]

As I sit here listening to the rain on my Canberra roof, I smile at the thought that any leaks in my Deefer will hopefully facilitate the drowning of all the spiders that have taken up residence in every bloody nook and cranny :)

[djam1]

There is a profound difference between Moab and the Tanami track or Canning Stock Route your thinking is out of step with reality.

You wont need 37 inch tyres in fact if you do have them the likely hood of finding them anywhere in Outback OZ is extremely remote.
I am also not sure why you need 18 inches of wheel travel if you have diff locks.

I always found it amusing when living in the Territory the number of Land Cruisers traveling through with large mud terrain tires that were totally inappropriate might be great in the Victorian High country but useless in the desert.

Still think you should buy a Jeep

[martnH]

Your wife gets it
Defender is more about childhood memory, history and how a defender looks

Jeep is more about 37 inch tyres monster truck.

If you are after performance, look, land Rover has done zero research and development on defender for almost thirty years. If defender can still be competitive in terms of comfort and performance, then Toyota Mitsubishi Mercedes Nissan Suzuki etc...must be retarded for wasting money on improving their products. This includes fix any known fault on a new car( not often happened to a defender haha

Also my opinion on 37 inch tyres....
My theory goes that car manufacturers spent big money on engineering and testing the trucks....Putting 37' inch tyres on requires re engineering the entire car not just suspension But also drive line brakes etc..

You sure you can afford that( I mean to do things right, not just couple of springs and rods)? Otherwise things might break in the future

[G.man]

Your wife gets it
Defender is more about childhood memory, history and how a defender looks

Jeep is more about 37 inch tyres monster truck.

If you are after performance, look, land Rover has done zero research and development on defender for almost thirty years. If defender can still be competitive in terms of comfort and performance, then Toyota Mitsubishi Mercedes Nissan Suzuki etc...must be retarded for wasting money on improving their products. This includes fix any known fault on a new car( not often happened to a defender haha

Also my opinion on 37 inch tyres....
My theory goes that car manufacturers spent big money on engineering and testing the trucks....Putting 37' inch tyres on requires re engineering the entire car not just suspension But also drive line brakes etc..

You sure you can afford that( I mean to do things right, not just couple of springs and rods)? Otherwise things might break in the future

No I can't afford a $200,000 +/- vehicle of mods. However, in the future I might be able to and I might want to do it just like those guys in the videos did theirs.

RE: Do I need 37's? Did the guys in the video need it? Probably not, but then again, people driving around Sydney in Mercedes and BMWs worth $100,000+ and people buying Landcruisers of all the dumb things to drive on bitumen roads in Sydney traffic just to drop kids off to school and go shopping is definitely not a 'need' either.

Whether I do it or not, I don't know but "IF" I wanted to do what those guys did in the videos to their rigs, can that also be done to a Defender?

If I did not love the square space the Defender gives in the boot, I wouldn't even be asking. It is that, that is throwing me off buying a Wrangler.

[Homestar]

I still think everything that's been spoken about is all moot until you go drive them both. Defenders aren't everyone's cup of tea - you might find you hate it after driving around the block.

[martnH]

No I can't afford a $200,000 +/- vehicle of mods. However, in the future I might be able to and I might want to do it just like those guys in the videos did theirs.

RE: Do I need 37's? Did the guys in the video need it? Probably not, but then again, people driving around Sydney in Mercedes and BMWs worth $100,000+ and people buying Landcruisers of all the dumb things to drive on bitumen roads in Sydney traffic just to drop kids off to school and go shopping is definitely not a 'need' either.

Whether I do it or not, I don't know but "IF" I wanted to do what those guys did in the videos to their rigs, can that also be done to a Defender?

If I did not love the square space the Defender gives in the boot, I wouldn't even be asking. It is that, that is throwing me off buying a Wrangler.

Usually the load space is desired if you want to do remote travelling. And this goes against 37 not only because of reliability issues but also increased fuel consumption.

In my opinion, you can't have both.
Either 37 tyres or touring.

In the long term, it will be cheaper to buy something comes with 37s from factory. Maybe a unimog. I doubt anyone can afford proper engineering to fit 37 on a defender, balancing performance and longevity.

I have seen a case where an engineering certificate was obtained for 6 inch lift and 37 inch tyres on a patrol (89 mods documented) and the owner later wish that he can drop the patrol down to 2 inch lift for touring but it's almost impossible because of modified suspension mounts.

[Homestar]

Remembering the OP hasn't owned a 4WD before, they are probably just going off what looks cool and not what is functional and needed in the day to day world.

[Zeros]

I still think everything that's been spoken about is all moot until you go drive them both. Defenders aren't everyone's cup of tea - you might find you hate it after driving around the block.

This thread is like some kind of wierd virtual reality project. ...Driving them both is the first thing I’d do before asking any questions. Otherwise agreed, it’s all moot. Unless of course you just want to put a design icon in a frame and look at it, imagining the journeys you might go on. You can have any size tyres you want for free in your imagination! 😳

[G.man]

This thread is like some kind of wierd virtual reality project. ...Driving them both is the first thing I’d do before asking any questions. Otherwise agreed, it’s all moot. Unless of course you just want to put a design icon in a frame and look at it, imagining the journeys you might go on. You can have any size tyres you want for free in your imagination! 😳

40" wheels then like the Lower40 Wrangler. That looks amazing. Think in the end, everything can be engineered if you have the $ to throw around. I mean... Hell, Semi trailers drive fine on the street. Love sitting in them and they got HUGE wheels and travel across the entire country on a daily basis. Must be ok. [biggrin]

[weeds]

Carrying two spare 37’s would take all your GVM.....than finding somewhere to mount them.

[cripesamighty]

From a new AULRO member who lives in Iceland. A Defender on 37’s....

Newbie from the "other" side with a cricket problem.. (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/introductions/264882-newbie-other-side-cricket-problem.html)

[G.man]

From a new AULRO member who lives in Iceland. A Defender on 37’s....

Newbie from the "other" side with a cricket problem.. (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/introductions/264882-newbie-other-side-cricket-problem.html)

Hey,

Sorry for asking... but I noticed a few members posted links to images on here and I can't see any of them. I am logged in (obviously since I am typing this message) but when I click on the links it sends me to the "You must log in" page. I can't see any pictures anyone has posted/linked in this thread to me... ???

Other than that...

The Ultimate Getaway Vehicle: Land Rover Defender 6.2 V8 Flying Huntsman 105 Long Nose | Kahn News | Kahn Design (http://www.kahndesign.com/news/news_detail.php?i=1585&lang=)

I really like that a lot. Volcanic Rock Satin paint (yeah ok) looks like cast iron. Absolutely perfect colour for that car. Interior I could care less about... but damn the rest of it looks great. Wheels good size too - think that is 37"...

They say it is a Defender Long Nose... ? What model would that be originally? The long hood looks good on it.

[cripesamighty]

This should help!

144008

[The ho har's]

Hey,

Sorry for asking... but I noticed a few members posted links to images on here and I can't see any of them. I am logged in (obviously since I am typing this message) but when I click on the links it sends me to the "You must log in" page. I can't see any pictures anyone has posted/linked in this thread to me... ???

Other than that...

The Ultimate Getaway Vehicle: Land Rover Defender 6.2 V8 Flying Huntsman 105 Long Nose | Kahn News | Kahn Design (http://www.kahndesign.com/news/news_detail.php?i=1585&lang=)

I really like that a lot. Volcanic Rock Satin paint (yeah ok) looks like cast iron. Absolutely perfect colour for that car. Interior I could care less about... but damn the rest of it looks great. Wheels good size too - think that is 37"...

They say it is a Defender Long Nose... ? What model would that be originally? The long hood looks good on it.

A specially built one to accommodate the V8, no defenders came standard with a V8. except County Spec.

We have toured to all the of the places you mentioned in our Defender 130. Top End, Gibb River, Tanami Track, Flinders, Vic High Country, Outback S.A. with out an issue. But what everyone has said TEST drive one and then you will know.

Mrs hh

[ozscott]

County came stock with a v8. The recent limited edition jobby has only a V8. But yep apart from those the Deefer unfortunately missed out on the beautiful thing that is a petrol 8 pot.

Cheers

[ozscott]

In truth I would like the motor from this in my D2...

427 big block
...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180907/43502d8d3ec3db9a713d49debef81642.jpg

[Zeros]

40" wheels then like the Lower40 Wrangler. That looks amazing. Think in the end, everything can be engineered if you have the $ to throw around. I mean... Hell, Semi trailers drive fine on the street. Love sitting in them and they got HUGE wheels and travel across the entire country on a daily basis. Must be ok. [biggrin]

Dude! so you are only interested in how it might look! Not interested in actually driving them! LOL! Good luck!

[dazzler]

Defender 110 Td5 Double Cab — LRO (https://www.lro.com/reviews/owners-reviews/1411/defender-110-td5-double-cab)

[karlz]

So, if you had posted the same question on a jeep forum, would you have had the same "emotional" & quantity of responses in the same amount of time?

I rest my case.

"Buying a porsche SUV for the sake of the kids safety, I don't think I have heard such transparently banal bullish@t in my entire life." - Rake

[G.man]

So, if you had posted the same question on a jeep forum, would you have had the same "emotional" & quantity of responses in the same amount of time?

I rest my case.

It was jeep people that told me to check the defender out since space was a concern of mine :)

[tact]

Defender 110 Td5 Double Cab — LRO (https://www.lro.com/reviews/owners-reviews/1411/defender-110-td5-double-cab)

MMMmmmm... Dual cab! :cool:

(hows your style side trailer going?)

[Pickles2]

In truth I would like the motor from this in my D2...

427 big block
...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180907/43502d8d3ec3db9a713d49debef81642.jpg
I want that!
Pickles.

[Zeros]

"Buying a porsche SUV for the sake of the kids safety, I don't think I have heard such transparently banal bullish@t in my entire life." - Rake

Brilliant! Problem is: ALL new Land Rover offerings are currently in the same category of BS banality! Big urban sports cars pretending to be 4x4’s. Fat wide wheels,etc The IMAGE of adventure. How it LOOKS. Without Defender pffffftttt.

[tact]

I still think everything that's been spoken about is all moot until you go drive them both. Defenders aren't everyone's cup of tea - you might find you hate it after driving around the block.

What he (and others) said... full stop. Drive one before you talk about it any more. There do exist people who just cannot feel at home in a Defender. The ergonomics of having a shoulder always against the B pillar, cramping right arm movement when steering, such a very upright seating position etc.

Some love it. Some hate it.

Storytime: Prior to buying this Defender:
144022,

I had pretty much only owned toyota 4x4s like this:
144027

and for one sweet job I had a while back down the Antarctic I got to drive gov't owned ones like this:
144023.

(I hope the observation, they are all dual cabs, hasn't escaped anyone....) [biggrin]

Day comes (back in 2013) and I am looking for another 4x4, want to buy brand new again. I want a platform that will allow me to expose my then 5yo son to family camping experiences and adventures in the remaining jungles of Malaysia.

However - I struggle to get my head around what the good old dual cab has morphed into over the years since I last bought one new.

For the life of me I cannot bring myself to buy into what amounts to automotive "white goods" and then have to embark on a pretty major upgrade project to get it to ready to go further offroad than the mall carpark. (Hiluxes came with 29" 2ply HT tyres in 2013 - for goodness sake!). Even wife shook her head when we test drove the (then) new Hilux - "Its a handbag, you'd be putting your balls in a handbag driving this."

Wife suggests "What about a Defender?". (The neighbour across the road had a 90 and wife thought they look real nice!)

LAUGH! Ohhhh didn't I - LAUGH! C'mon now.... be real! As our conversation continued I offered her a challenge - I challenged her with my assertion that if we booked a test drive of a (then) new Defender, she would not get past clipping up her seatbelt before throwing in the towel. (Must confess I had never driven one myself - but years of campfire wisdom shared by other toyota owners has to count for something!).

Well she drove it and liked it. I felt I had to have a go too. Drove it and liked it. A lot. Could basically drive it from showroom to jungle. Have changed some bits since then. Going from stock 32" to 33" tyres was just a matter of changing the rubber bit from 235/85R16 to 255/85R16. Put torque biassing diffs front and rear, and added a tune. No body or suspension lifts/changes needed for what I want to do with it.

To the OP: I offer you the same challenge I offered my wife 5yrs ago - go drive a Defender, you won't make it past clipping up the seatbelt before bailing out! [bigrolf]

[dazzler]

MMMmmmm... Dual cab! :cool:

(hows your style side trailer going?)


Still in pieces!!

144024144025

Tent
144028

[G.man]

Going to check a Defender tomorrow.

Guess then I will know if I have questions or not.

[Pickles2]

So, what happened???
Pickles.

[The ho har's]

So, what happened???
Pickles.

He started a new thread. Won't make it past clipping up the seatbelt before bailing out challenge (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/264927-wont-make-past-clipping-up-seatbelt-before-bailing-out-challenge.html)

Mrs hh

[G.man]

So, what happened???
Pickles.

What The ho har said.

I am going a Defender = short answer. [thumbsupbig]

[Pickles2]

What The ho har said.

I am going a Defender = short answer. [thumbsupbig]
EXCELLENT,.....TBH I really thought you were going the Jeep route.
Always happy to admit when I'm wrong,....I'm glad I was!!
You'll LOVE Defender, maybe it'll take you a while to get used to its "ünusualities", but there's really nothing like 'ém, not that I'm an expert though, but there are many on here who know ém inside out, so whatever info you need, it'll be available here.
Pics are mandatory.
Good Luck, Pickles.