Adelaide Q: TD5 power vs TDi 300 power

[spudboy]

Was wondering if anyone from Adelaide can tell me if they can get their TD5 up the South Eastern Freeway in 5th gear.

I've got a 'new' bog standard 2001 TD5 130 running on standard 7.50R16 tyres and it just won't go up in 5th, which I was expecting.

I've got a 97 TDi300 Discovery and this 'almost' goes all the way in 5th, so I was a bit disappointed to have to shift down to 4th for the whole way up in the 130, seeing that the TD5 has a reputation for more power.

Is there any simple test (maybe a Dyno test) to see if it is putting out a normal amount of power?

[abaddonxi]

Probably difference in weight between the two.

My 130 weighs in at about 2400kg, and that's with the tank empty too.

Cheers
Simon

[LandyAndy]

Hi
We went on a trip a few weeks ago,Agro,s 130 was struggling at highway speeds on moderate hills.
Do the plain model defenders get the same power output of the Disco TD5???
Andrew

[spudboy]

I know that Defender TD5s put out less power then Discovery TD5s (something like 98Kw vs 110Kw, but that is distant recollection and is prob wrong), but no idea why.

Why wouldn't they want the Defenders to go as well as the Discos?

[abaddonxi]

Defender 130 at kerb 2117kg with tub, add more for steel tray
Tyres 7.5R16 or 235/85 R16

Discovery II at kerb 1977kg
Tyres 235/70 R16

Cheers
Simon

[DeeJay]

Why wouldn't they want the Defenders to go as well as the Discos?
Spudboy
I think it's a marketing thing that continues to appear. My '81 stage 1 had chokers in the inlet manifold to drop the h/p.
If you look across the model range over the years it's always happened

[abaddonxi]

I think it's called sacrificing highway performance for off-road performance.

Defenders aren't really designed for going fast. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Cheers
Simon

[BigJon]

I have driven a Discovery 11 TD5 auto up that hill and to maintain the speed limit it kept dropping back to third gear. It is a hell of a steep and long climb.

[Frenchie]

Chippity chip chip...... https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[YRVGreen]

your in a heavy truck,.. that is less areo dynamic,.. posibly on less highway friendly tires..

[Redback]

Kerb weight for a DII TD5 is 2225kg the V8 is a little lighter, the manual TD5 has 90Kw and the Auto has 102Kw the Defender TD5 has 90Kw, also has differant ratios and larger tyre than the Disco too, 32s as apposed to 29 on the Disco.

The Defender doesn't handle big hills as well as the Disco.

Baz.

[discowhite]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>The Defender doesn't handle big hills as well as the Disco[/b][/quote]


UNLESS YOU HAVE A 90 https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

phil

[tombraider]

Originally posted by Redback
Kerb weight for a DII TD5 is 2225kg the V8 is a little lighter, the manual TD5 has 90Kw and the Auto has 102Kw the Defender TD5 has 90Kw, also has differant ratios and larger tyre than the Disco too, 32s as apposed to 29 on the Disco.

The Defender doesn't handle big hills as well as the Disco.

Baz.
Defender 90kw 300Nm
Disco 131kw 340Nm

Defender and Disco final drive is same regardless of tyre diameter in HI range.

Cheers
Mike

[disco_ute]

i thougt the disco's were 105kw?? is that maybe the early ones?

[tombraider]

101kw was early td5

[disco_ute]

Originally posted by tombraider
101kw was early td5

what year did they change? and what did they change to make them more powerfull? is it all software?

[CraigE]

That climb out of Adelaide and up the hills is very deceptive and a lot steeper than one may think. Our commodor v8 auto would kick back as well at some points. My Disco would struggle in 5th gear and I used to use 4th tdi as it is not worth the psossible damage to the box in 5th.

[spudboy]

Thanks for all the comments. Sounds like I may be expecting too much from the old girl.

I have been thinking of a chip upgrade. Going from 90Kw to 131Kw sounds very attractive esp as I live at the top of the hill from the freeway and have to do it nearly every day.

Am just a tiny bit worried about extra stress and wear and tear by upping the power. At $700 it's not too expensive, but I'd kick myself if it caused something else to break and left me stranded. Decisions, decisions....

[Redback]

OK from an English web site Wisebuyers Guide ;


01A TD5 DISCOVERY

Fuel Delivery .............................Turbo
BHP ...........................................135.4
Torque (lbs feet) .........................220.0
RPM to which the Torque refers.... 1950
Maximum Speed ..........................98
Acceleration (0-60)..................... 14.2

04 TD5 DISCOVERY

Fuel Delivery ...............................Turbo
BHP ............................................135.4
Torque (lbs feet) ..........................220.0
RPM to which the Torque refers .....1950
Maximum Speed ...........................98
Acceleration (0-60) .......................14.2

Length (mm) ..............................4705
Width (mm) ...............................2190
Height (mm) ..............................1980
Unladen weight ..........................2150
Boot Capacity (litres) ..................1699

00 TD5 DISCOVERY

Fuel Delivery ................................Turbo
BHP .............................................136.0
Torque (lbs feet) ...........................220.0
RPM to which the Torque refers .......1950
Maximum Speed ............................98
Acceleration (0-60) ........................14.2

Running Costs open close

Insurance Group 13
Fuel Economy: Urban .....................24.6
Fuel Economy: Extra Urban ............34.4
Fuel Economy: Combined ...............30.1
Emissions Data (co2 gm/km) ..........262
Service Intervals 12 mths/12000 miles

Description open close

No of doors ....................................5
Body Style .....................................Station Wagon
Transmission ..................................Manual
Fuel type ........................................Diesel
Front Brakes ...................................VENT DISC
Rear Brakes ....................................DISC
Tyre type ........................................235/70R16
Production Start Date ......................20 July 1999
Production End Date ........................31 July 2000

Key Dimensions open close

Length (mm).................................... 4705
Width (mm) ......................................2190
Height (mm) .....................................1980
Unladen weight ..................................2280
Boot Capacity (litres) ..........................881

Baz.

[disco_ute]

00 TD5 DISCOVERY

Fuel Delivery ................................Turbo
BHP .............................................136.0

so thats .6 BHP more then the new ones????

what were they on about before?

[Redback]

I think they may of rounded it off the last one was further on in the sales list 8O

Thats my theory anyway :roll:

Baz.

[Ace]

As mentioned above aerodynamics play a part in it all. Now matter how good the engine is its still shaped like a house brick. Matt

[disco_ute]

so defenders are the ordinary house hold brick and discoveries are besser bricks?

[Ace]

Originally posted by mickrangie
so defenders are the ordinary house hold brick and discoveries are besser bricks?

Dont think for a second i am bagging defenders i love them, but the shape does hinder ther forward momentum somewhat. That cant be denied. How much worse it is than the disco i couldnt tell. Has anyone got a wind tunnel we can borrow. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[tombraider]

Nah!

Defenders a aerated brick https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

And yeah, I love mine too...

Cheers
Mike

[spudboy]

Just reviving this old post with a quick follow up. I've taken off the canopy from the back of my 130, and now I can go up all the way up the freeway in 5th gear, so looks like it is predominantly a weight issue more than aerodynamics.

It is an all aluminium canopy, and before I took it off I estimated it to weight 200-250Kg. Wrong! It nearly tipped my tractor over lifting it off (I didn't bother put on the counterweight), and when I rang the fabricating company who made it I found it was 600Kg. I was miles out.

So, drop 600Kg off your car and the performance increases a huge amount. No wonder auto makers all want to make parts lighter.
Cheers
David

[rick130]

No wonder auto makers all want to make parts lighter.

but the manufacturers keep making the whole car heavier with each successive model ;)

And FWIW, the high range is different 'tween a 'fender and Disco, with the Defender using a 1.410:1 high range, and, IIRC a Disco around 1.22:1, so the overal final drive ratio is slightly lower in a 'fender, but actual gearing possibly works out the same when tyre diamater is taken into account.

[Ace]

Just reviving this old post with a quick follow up. I've taken off the canopy from the back of my 130, and now I can go up all the way up the freeway in 5th gear, so looks like it is predominantly a weight issue more than aerodynamics.

It is an all aluminium canopy, and before I took it off I estimated it to weight 200-250Kg. Wrong! It nearly tipped my tractor over lifting it off (I didn't bother put on the counterweight), and when I rang the fabricating company who made it I found it was 600Kg. I was miles out.

So, drop 600Kg off your car and the performance increases a huge amount. No wonder auto makers all want to make parts lighter.
Cheers
David

I would imaging your economy has improved some what aswell. matt

[camel_landy]

Was wondering if anyone from Adelaide can tell me if they can get their TD5 up the South Eastern Freeway in 5th gear.

I've got a 'new' bog standard 2001 TD5 130 running on standard 7.50R16 tyres and it just won't go up in 5th, which I was expecting.

I've got a 97 TDi300 Discovery and this 'almost' goes all the way in 5th, so I was a bit disappointed to have to shift down to 4th for the whole way up in the 130, seeing that the TD5 has a reputation for more power.

Is there any simple test (maybe a Dyno test) to see if it is putting out a normal amount of power?

I can't be bothered reading through all the replies but apologies if it has already been said....

1 - IIRC, the 130 is heavier than the Disco.
2 - The Defender has the aerodynamics of a brick.
3 - The transfer boxes have different ratios between the Disco & Defender.
4 - Tyre sizes. The 130 runs on larger tyres (which are harder to turn).... This makes a BIG difference.

If you want to try a little test... Stick some smaller tyres on the 130 & give it another go. :huh:

M

[JDNSW]

Just reviving this old post with a quick follow up. I've taken off the canopy from the back of my 130, and now I can go up all the way up the freeway in 5th gear, so looks like it is predominantly a weight issue more than aerodynamics.

It is an all aluminium canopy, and before I took it off I estimated it to weight 200-250Kg. Wrong! It nearly tipped my tractor over lifting it off (I didn't bother put on the counterweight), and when I rang the fabricating company who made it I found it was 600Kg. I was miles out.

So, drop 600Kg off your car and the performance increases a huge amount. No wonder auto makers all want to make parts lighter.
Cheers
David

I'm somewhat astounded that it is that heavy, but as well as the weight , the aerodynamics would have been affected as well (just how much depends on the canopy) - and this may have been a larger effect than the weight.

My County will tow my big trailer comfortably at 100km/h (provided it is level)- but only if I take the rear tailgate off the trailer! This tailgate is about a foot high and 2m long.
John

[4bee]

I realise we ain't talking sound barrier stuff here, but I seem to recall reading somewhere, that a vertical flat **** end creates turbulence & therefore drag.

Is why the back end should be tapered off to a point.

A 130 with a pointy tail thing? I'd like to see that.:D

You'd breeze up the Freeway, (or should I say the M1) then spudb.:rolleyes:

[disconut]

but the manufacturers keep making the whole car heavier with each successive model ;)

And FWIW, the high range is different 'tween a 'fender and Disco, with the Defender using a 1.410:1 high range, and, IIRC a Disco around 1.22:1, so the overal final drive ratio is slightly lower in a 'fender, but actual gearing possibly works out the same when tyre diamater is taken into account.
My DII auto Disco ran approx 2250 rpm at 100 k/hr. The 03 Fender runs 2500 rpm at 100 k/hr. (both diesels).
The difference in towing ability is quite marked because of this. Particuarly up the range. The auto played tunes all the way up, and the manual just plugs away. Chipped, it eats the mountain. Can tow the the caravan up the range (tare 1100kgs), at 80 k/hr in 3rd gear. Embarrasses the hell out of the big Tojo,s.:):)
Trev.

[rick130]

I realise we ain't talking sound barrier stuff here, but I seem to recall reading somewhere, that a vertical flat **** end creates turbulence & therefore drag.

Is why the back end should be tapered off to a point.

A 130 with a pointy tail thing? I'd like to see that.:D

You'd breeze up the Freeway, (or should I say the M1) then spudb.:rolleyes:

but turbulance and drag = aerodynamic stability, whereas an aero rear end promotes lift and is quite unstable, so a Defender ar$e end is preferable for the drivers underwear when doing those uber high speed runs around Mallala or Eastern Creek. :lol:

[rick130]

My DII auto Disco ran approx 2250 rpm at 100 k/hr. The 03 Fender runs 2500 rpm at 100 k/hr. (both diesels).
The difference in towing ability is quite marked because of this. Particuarly up the range. The auto played tunes all the way up, and the manual just plugs away. Chipped, it eats the mountain. Can tow the the caravan up the range (tare 1100kgs), at 80 k/hr in 3rd gear. Embarrasses the hell out of the big Tojo,s.:):)
Trev.

and I stuffed mine up with the 33" tyres.
That's where a 3" exhaust and pump tweaking help. Much nicer to drive. :D (other than the noise and drumming sans muffler...:rolleyes:)

[4bee]

whereas an aero rear end promotes lift


Shirley that can only be a good thing, Rick? :D
While it may be unstable, just think of the uber low fuel consumption. In fact, would it be presumptious of me to think one could leave home with empty tanks & arrive back with them overflowing?


Or should I go back to the drawing board?:rolleyes:



;)

[disconut]

but turbulance and drag = aerodynamic stability, whereas an aero rear end promotes lift and is quite unstable, so a Defender ar$e end is preferable for the drivers underwear when doing those uber high speed runs around Mallala or Eastern Creek. :lol:

Don't know about lift, but you can stuff more into a square box, and back up closer to things to gain more manouverability.:D

Trev.

[rick130]

Shirley that can only be a good thing, Rick? :D
While it may be unstable, just think of the uber low fuel consumption. In fact, would it be presumptious of me to think one could leave home with empty tanks & arrive back with them overflowing?


Or should I go back to the drawing board?:rolleyes:



;)

NO, and stop calling me Shirley !






:p:lol::lol::lol:

[JDNSW]

1. A streamlined shape does not necessarily produce lift, but if, like most (but not all) cars it is streamlined only in the vertical plane, this coupled with turbulent flow under the car, as with almost all cars will certainly produce lift. It is possible to streamline the car only in the horizontal plane, but this would invite problems with crosswinds, as sideways lift would be generated whenever the airflow was not along the axis of the car.

2. The problems of a rectangular box such as a Defender are, in fact, much more easily solved. A series of small vortex generators could be installed on the sides and top just in front of the back to break the airflow away from the body. This small scale turbulence allows the vehicle to pull a cone of air behind it and give less drag than the large scale turbulence you get otherwise. Somewhere recently I have seen an article about someone (in Sydney I think) planning to sell just such a device for large trucks. This type of vortex generator consists of a strip of thin metal about 2cm wide and 5cm long with the last cm bent up (90 deg) at each end, the two bent up bits being about 30 deg to each other . The centre section is attached to the panel normal to the airflow. These vortex generators have been used for many years on some aircraft, usually as an add on to solve airflow problems that only appeared in flight testing when it was too late to make major design changes, but occasionally as part of the original design.
John

[4bee]

:D What he said.

[rick130]

the only problem with vortex generators is that you need laminar flow for them to do their thing, and I don't kow how undisturbed the air is around a Deafener with all the bibs and bobs and bits sticking out all over :lol:

[JDNSW]

the only problem with vortex generators is that you need laminar flow for them to do their thing, and I don't kow how undisturbed the air is around a Deafener with all the bibs and bobs and bits sticking out all over :lol:

Good point, but they would probably help above the waistline and on the roof.

An interesting point is that the sharp corner on the Defender is probably a lot better at shedding the airflow than the rounded corners on,say, a Disco, where the vortex generators would be more worthwhile.

But the article I read was talking about using them on heavy vehicles, most of which have quite a few bits sticking out anyway.

It occurs to me that a good place to break the airflow cleanly away from the body would be near the front of the bonnet, so that most of the airflow goes above the windscreen. should both reduce drag slightly and reduce the number of insects squashed on the windscreen.

John

[disconut]

the only problem with vortex generators is that you need laminar flow for them to do their thing, and I don't kow how undisturbed the air is around a Deafener with all the bibs and bobs and bits sticking out all over :lol:

I use two of my vortex generators to check on the traffic behind me! :rolleyes:

Trev.

[JDNSW]

I use two of my vortex generators to check on the traffic behind me! :rolleyes:

Trev.

Yes, but they would be better right at the back of the vehicle - not sure how you would see them there......

Actually I expect that the vortex from the mirrors would have moved away from the body by the back of the vehicle.

[rick130]

I use two of my vortex generators to check on the traffic behind me! :rolleyes:

Trev.

how cool is that ! a multi-function device :cool: and we all thought Land Rover engineers were aero-dynamically clueless :lol::lol:

[rick130]

Yes, but they would be better right at the back of the vehicle - not sure how you would see them there......

Actually I expect that the vortex from the mirrors would have moved away from the body by the back of the vehicle.

do you reckon anyone would be crazy enough to stick a Defender in a moving ground plane wind tunnel to see what actually happened ? :lol:

(this coming from a man that wool tuffted a Nissan Patrol to check the airflow all around the front end and cabin......:huh:)

[Teddy]

Take a trip to Triumph Rover Spares at Lonsdale for a new ECU. All your problems with not holding 5th will be a thing of the past.
http://www.triumphroverspares.com.au/

[CraigE]

Some good stuff in their new website.
:D :D