2.0L engine rebuild?

[cjc_td5]

I own a 1954 86" with the 2.0l siamese bore engine. The one thing I have not touched in the 10 years I have been sporadically restoring the vehicle is the engine & gearbox. The vehicle was finally road registered a couple of months ago. Whilst some road running has dramatically improved its demeanour, there are a few ongoing concerns that I feel ready to tackle now. Symptoms are:
- It bungs up spark plugs in short time. I am running hotter spark plugs, but by 20 hours of running time with new plugs, a miss at high revs and rough idle will develop which a set of plugs will remove (until next time).
- Dry compression is 100-105 psi across all 4 cylinders.
- It blows oil mist out of the breather on the tappet cover like a steam train!
- There is an occasional internal rattle on startup. Will only last for a fraction of a second and I presume may be related to lack of oil pressure at cold starting.

The oil pressure seems ok and sits fairly stable at 30-40 psi. Tappet clearances have been checked and are (were) ok.

I am debating on whether to give it to someone to rebuild or to dismantle myself and inspect and replace required parts as necessary, in consultation with the good folk at AULRO and the workshop manual. I don't particularly want to soak up $8-10K of "spending money" on a rebuild if I can avoid it.

What would be the likely areas to target with a "light" rebuild?
- Piston Rings?
- Valve seats? Can hardened valves & seats be installed for ULP?
- Likelihood of having to go to a rebore and/or bigger pistons etc?
- Would you dismantle & inspect the bottom end whilst it was out of the vehicle?

Any other advice at this time?

Thanks
Chris

[1950landy]

My guess if it has that much blowby iit will have worn or broken rings causing the plugs to oil up . You won't need hardened valve seats as they already are. To get the pistons out you will need to diismantle the bottom end so you will be able to check the bearings . You need to check the compression with a couple of squrts of oil in the cylinders if it increases the compression then the rings are a problem.

[cjc_td5]

My guess if it has that much blowby iit will have worn or broken rings causing the plugs to oil up . You won't need hardened valve seats as they already are. To get the pistons out you will need to diismantle the bottom end so you will be able to check the bearings . You need to check the compression with a couple of squrts of oil in the cylinders if it increases the compression then the rings are a problem.Thanks. A set of wet compression tests will be this weekend's task.

[JDNSW]

That sounds like my 2.0 55 years ago.

I put in new rings and big end bearings and did a valve grind, deglazed the cylinder walls, nothing else. Fixed all the issues.

Only subsequent problem was, driving from Sydney back to Longreach, about half way started getting severe pre-ignition. Pulling the plugs showed that the centre electrodes had worn to needle points. Fortunately, I still had with me the old plugs that had kept oiling up, put them in, no further problems.

[1950landy]

You used to be able to buy a product I think was called New Metal that came in a tube like a tooth paste tube , you put 1/4 in each cylinder then left so it run down the sids of the pistons . You then had to drive the vehicle hard to get the rings to push out against the bore . I used it in my 80 " back when I 1st bought it , I was having to put a pint of oil in it after each run , after using the product the vehicle went another 6 years with out having to top up the oil . Unlike other products that make the same clam it did not gum up the rings , all the rings were free & the groves were clean. :thumbsup: It worked wert the rings were stuck in the groves or the bore saw badly glassed, would not work if rings were broken.
Now the down side to this story . I don't think you can buy New Metal any more it is like most products that work it is no longer available.:thumbsdown:

[cjc_td5]

The compression test numbers are in.

Dry compression pressures are 93, 90, 93 & 85.

Wet compression pressures are 115, 120, 122 & 113.

All compression readings would take 2-3 cycles to come up max pressure, which from my reading indicates poor ring compression also.

Spark plugs 1 & 2 are visibly sootier than 3 & 4 which are comparatively dry and brown.

Looks like it may be engine out time...

[JDNSW]

You can do rings and bearings without removing the engine.

[cjc_td5]

You can do rings and bearings without removing the engine.The rear main oil seal needs attention and the clutch should be checked. It could all do with a coat of paint also.

[cjc_td5]

Well 9am saw this.
144825

By 5pm it was this!
144826

Out with you, bastard! That was a mission without a bolted gearbox cross member. I had to take off all of the handbrake assembly and flange and then ended up having to release one side of the bulkhead and lift it by a couple of inches to give clearance for the gearbox to fit through the tunnel. Will have to weigh up installing the gearbox split and connecting insitu vs lifting the bulkhead so the engine and transmission can be reinstalled in one piece....

Now it looks like I have a few hours of cleaning ahead of me...

[LR1953]

Chris, I'll be watching this thread with interest. My '53 2 litre engine needs to come out to have a new ring gear fitted to the flywheel.
Cheers, Rob S

[cjc_td5]

Well the head is off.
No evidence of leakage between 1-2 or 3-4, not that there were any symptoms of this.

144961

I can feel no indication of any lip at the top of any of the cylinder bores, when felt with a fingernail. The cylinders are mirror smooth which would be glazing?

144962

If there is no wear lip at the top of the cylinders, would you necessarily go to a rebore?

Thoughts?

Chris

[1950landy]

The bore's had a taper at the top to assist with fitting pistons so there could be wear but it may not show as a lip. You will need to get the bored & pistons measured by engine reconditioner. You may be lucky & just have to give it a hone. You will need to find an engine reconditioner who is familiar with the Rover inlet over exhaust motor . If the engine needs a rebore because the block is tapered at the top they need to wedge the boreing bar so so yhey don't bore it on an angle.

[cjc_td5]

Righto, how the hell do you remove the exhaust rocker shaft from the block? The manual just says extract the shaft using part #262749. Is there an internal thread in the end of the shaft that can be engaged to draw the shaft out through the rear of the block?

Otherwise the pull-down is going ok. Everything is very sooty so looking forward to giving everything a good wash.

The engine is going in to a local machine shop on Monday (hopefully) to be measured up re bores and main bearings. They also have the machine to give it a good clean. From there I can assess further work required.

Thanks,
Chris

[cjc_td5]

Got it. Take out the plug at the front and drift them out towards the rear. The plug is a weird square size and I had to grind down a scrap bolt to fit it.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/50ab9467441bd8a0b7b79675d24697dd.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/6500e3ab71e7c22ee1a73abcceee876a.jpg

[1950landy]

The tool to extract the ex rocker shaft is an easyout welded to a bit of round bar with a T handle. I have a drawing here with the measurements but can't post it at the moment as I will not have a desk top untill november.

[1950landy]

I started a thread on Special Tools For IOE Engines I think you will find the drawing in there , there will also be a drawing to make the tool to hold the timing chain tentioner , it makes it a lot easier to refit the tentioner on reassembly. With out the tool it is possable brake the pivot lug on the tentioner.
With out my desk top I can not open attachments as my tablet wont allow it.

[cjc_td5]

I started a thread on Special Tools For IOE Engines I think you will find the drawing in there , there will also be a drawing to make the tool to hold the timing chain tentioner , it makes it a lot easier to refit the tentioner on reassembly. With out the tool it is possable brake the pivot lug on the tentioner.
With out my desk top I can not open attachments as my tablet wont allow it.Thanks. I recall your thread. I'll have a look through it again.
Cheers.

[1950landy]

145166145167
I have set my desk top back together in bedroom with ext lead running to nearest phone line so have been able to up load the drawings ' Theas tools are well worth making , the T handle allows you to rotate the rocker shaft when reinstalling it , makes it easier to line every thing up & the tensioner tool makes life easier on reassembly . The tensioner tool I made out of thin stainless steel it is stiffer than mild steel so does not bend with the spring tension of the tensioner. Hope this is of some help,

[cjc_td5]

145166145167
I have set my desk top back together in bedroom with ext lead running to nearest phone line so have been able to up load the drawings ' Theas tools are well worth making , the T handle allows you to rotate the rocker shaft when reinstalling it , makes it easier to line every thing up & the tensioner tool makes life easier on reassembly . The tensioner tool I made out of thin stainless steel it is stiffer than mild steel so does not bend with the spring tension of the tensioner. Hope this is of some help,Thanks mate, your efforts are much appreciated. Both of those tools look easy enough to make up. Another option may be a couple of cable ties (or tie wire loops) around the compressed spring which can be cut off after installation.
Chris.

[cjc_td5]

I took the short engine to a machine shop for them to disassemble it and measure it up. I dropped in and had a look today and the big end and main journals are badly scored. There is a small lip on the bores also. Looks like as a minimum a crank regrind and new under size shells. The machine shop is having issues with the lack of tolerance data for the engine or even a nominal piston size. All I can give them is the workshop manual which just has a basic diameter for bore, journal diameter etc. Is there any other data available or just use dead reckoning?

Don't want to go to new pistons as this will add a fair few more dollars to the project, we will see what the feedback is....

Didn't get any photos today unfortunately.

[JDNSW]

Which Manual did you have? The only one I have for Series 1 is an Autopress one, which does have some additional data, but I would be very surprised if there is anything in it that is not in the factory manual.

Are you aware of the manuals available on CD from the AULRO shop? A quick look shows the Series 1 CD contains a number of Service Bulletins as well as the workshop and parts manuals. I would think getting this would be an obvious first step in restoring a S1. Also, buying at the shop helps support this forum!

[cjc_td5]

Which Manual did you have? The only one I have for Series 1 is an Autopress one, which does have some additional data, but I would be very surprised if there is anything in it that is not in the factory manual.

Are you aware of the manuals available on CD from the AULRO shop? A quick look shows the Series 1 CD contains a number of Service Bulletins as well as the workshop and parts manuals. I would think getting this would be an obvious first step in restoring a S1. Also, buying at the shop helps support this forum!I have the factory parts and workshop manuals on CD. The service bulletins I have don't cover engine rebuilds. Any additional info would be welcome.

[cjc_td5]

The main and big ends are badly scored and are going to need a regrind. Probably abt 20 thou undersize.

There is 10 thou piston-bore clearance which the engine shop says is marginal re reuse vs bore and oversize pistons. What would you lads do?

[LR1953]

Chris,
Dunno how deep your pockets are, but the price of a set of replacement pistons (std or oversize) might help you decide. Another factor, what sort of mileage are you planning to clock up on the rebuilt engine? If not a lot, you might get away with simply re-ringing the standard pistons and re-honing the bores. Cheers, Rob S

[cjc_td5]

Chris,
Dunno how deep your pockets are, but the price of a set of replacement pistons (std or oversize) might help you decide. Another factor, what sort of mileage are you planning to clock up on the rebuilt engine? If not a lot, you might get away with simply re-ringing the standard pistons and re-honing the bores. Cheers, Rob SIt is looking like $4k with use existing pistons (regrind crank etc) vs $5.5k with rebore and new pistons added.

[russellrovers]

It is looking like $4k with use existing pistons (regrind crank etc) vs $5.5k with rebore and new pistons added.thats about right any thing up to 10.ooo on a full rebuild

[1950landy]

As said above depends on how much you are going to use it. That bore size could go a little higher with the hone .

[LR1953]

Chris,
If the budget figures quoted above ($4.5K - $10K) don't frighten you, I'd recommend getting crankshaft, rods and pistons balanced as well. I hear these engines (and most from this era) weren't particularly finely balanced in manufacture. You'll notice the difference! Cheers, Rob S

[cjc_td5]

Can anyone tell me if the early 2.0l main crank oil seal is the same as the later 1955-58) main seal? I can only find listings for the 1955-58 seal.

[1950landy]

The 1595cc motor never had a seal but a scroll on the shaft & a trough bolted to the rear of the block with a drain back into the sump. My guess seeing as the early 2L was a bored out 1595 cc it would be the same . When I overhauled my 1595 cc I had the scroll machined off & the late 2L seal bolted straight on in place of the trough. The scroll should work OK providing the scroll is not worn , the trough is clean & the drain back to the sump is not blocked . A lot of cars used this system infact Hillmans had a scroll on the front of the crank shaft as well.

[cjc_td5]

After an extremely long saga getting the correct piston assembly set for my engine rebuild, I take the set to the engine rebuilder and he gets out the rings, places them on a flat surface, and announces that they are bend/warped and cannot be used. The worst one has about 1mm of warp as per the pic, most are much less than this.

148251

Is this a show-stopper as he says it is? He says there is risk of breaking a ring in service...

C

[gromit]

After an extremely long saga getting the correct piston assembly set for my engine rebuild, I take the set to the engine rebuilder and he gets out the rings, places them on a flat surface, and announces that they are bend/warped and cannot be used. The worst one has about 1mm of warp as per the pic, most are much less than this.

148251

Is this a show-stopper as he says it is? He says there is risk of breaking a ring in service...

C

I'm struggling to understand why there is a 'problem' and cannot see why the ring would break in service but, to be fair, I'm not an engine re-conditioner.
The twist must have been through poor storage and I wonder if the set will come out when the engine comes up to temperature ?


Colin

[cjc_td5]

I'm struggling to understand why there is a 'problem' and cannot see why the ring would break in service but, to be fair, I'm not an engine re-conditioner.
The twist must have been through poor storage and I wonder if the set will come out when the engine comes up to temperature ?


ColinThe rings were in box sets on top of the pistons in a larger box. We were wondering if the rings had been deformed by being squashed onto the top of the ridged pistons. (The pistons not having a flat top but being "crowned" on top?

[cjc_td5]

Well got my engine back from the machine shop. 100% assembly required [emoji26][emoji26]. Let the fun begin. What could possibly go wrong......
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190308/c71d58f6d08a0fad148744d84b3afed4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190308/51ffd1d7e50f7967393b998c1e9481dc.jpg

[cjc_td5]

There are some huge 2mm+ casting ridges in some of the inlet and exhaust ports. I wonder if half a day spent with a die grinder may bring tangible benefits? I'll have to clean up a big mess afterwards, but it needs a wash to get rid of the anti rust goo anyway.
Thoughts?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190308/9a65772090cf151a04ce134781c932bb.jpg

[cjc_td5]

What ring gap could anyone recommend? There is nothing in the docs that came with the piston assemblies nor in the workshop manuals. The best I can find on the web is 4thou per inch of bore for the top compression ring (so 12thou gap) and 5thou per inch of bore for the second compression ring (so 15thou gap). Thoughts?
Cheers, Chris.

[asmit]

Thanks for sharing cjc_td5

Great to see your progress, I will be tackling this task soon, very keen to see how you go.

[100inch]

Yes, thanks for sharing cjc_td5,
One point, I found fixing the engine sideways makes lots of the scopes much easier as you get easy access to the crank and clutch. Maybe worth considering on your next engine rebuild [thumbsupbig]m
https://up.picr.de/38228268yq.jpg

[asmit]

Yes, thanks for sharing cjc_td5,
One point, I found fixing the engine sideways makes lots of the scopes much easier as you get easy access to the crank and clutch. Maybe worth considering on your next engine rebuild [thumbsupbig]m


Trying to get my engine onto a stand this afternoon and you're right! The rear end of the crank needs access ideally.
My 2L block is missing those bolt holes on the side of the block you're using with that bracket. [bigsad]
Looks like Chris's dosent have them either. Mine is a 1954 too. (I think, the first numbers are a bit gone)
I think I'll have to make a bracket that uses the engine mount and the flywheel housing attachment points.

[100inch]

https://up.picr.de/38294754bs.jpg


https://up.picr.de/38294756ug.jpg

Another two different ways to bolt the engine on. Hope they work for yours. m

[asmit]

I took your advice 100inch and made a bracket to go sideways for my 1954 (early?) 2.0L

159932

You can see I used 3 'through holes' and one blind hole in the flywheel housing.
Then the 2 engine mount bolts at front.
Steel is 5mm. We shall see if it falls on the floor [thumbsupbig]

159933

[100inch]

Great!
I supported mine with the chain block when not working on it.....due the Chinese engine stand, haha. m