SHOULDN'T WE BE SERIOUSLY STOPPING OUR POPULATION GROWTH?

[ramblingboy42]

This country cannot sustain our population in light of our rainfall , which is our lifeblood , especially in view of current and future weather forecasts.
Weather News - Australia's driest month in 116 years (http://www.weatherzone.com.au/news/australias-driest-month-in-116-years/528561)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

https://media.giphy.com/media/tFK8urY6XHj2w/giphy.gif

[DAMINK]

Up there with politics, religion and smoking weed that topic.

Im RUNNING from this one before i get myself in more trouble.:burnrubber:

[Pedro_The_Swift]

[bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

[Mick_Marsh]

First step, stop all immigration.
Second step, issue birth licences. If you're not capable of parenting a child, you can't have one.
Third step, two children per family unit.

[ramblingboy42]

I wasn't meaning for it to be political or I would have posted it in current affairs , which restricts other forum members from this information.

Currently all streams and river levels .....unless there has been rainfall in their catchments.....throughout Australia are reported to be at their lowest levels or dry.

According to BOM there is no immediate good outlook for rain anywhere in Australia in the near future.

It should be of interest to all as water restrictions will very quickly be placed upon us.

[goingbush]

yes, I'd be happy if UN Agenda 21 , which Australia is a signatory to, is implemented.

calls for a massive reduction in the worlds population for sustainability.

[goingbush]

Somehow I find this relevant

YouTube (https://youtu.be/RYB4rokqmfM)

[weeds]

yes, I'd be happy if UN Agenda 21 , which Australia is a signatory to, is implemented.

calls for a massive reduction in the worlds population for sustainability.

How is this possible.....signing up to something which simply isn’t achievable

Take away medical professional doing all they can to extend life....

[ramblingboy42]

Somehow I find this relevant

YouTube (https://youtu.be/RYB4rokqmfM)

Good find mate, yes I believe it is relevant.

The world bovine population is only there because we want to eat their meat and drink their milk , neither of which are necessary to support our lives......but never the less most enjoyable.

[donh54]

How is this possible.....signing up to something which simply isn’t achievable

Take away medical professional doing all they can to extend life....

Apparently, the third most common cause of death (in the USA, at least) is by medical error!
After heart disease and cancer, doctors are the most lethal thing in First World countries! :oops2:

[rammypluge]

Reduce immigration to immediate family reunion where strong grounds exist.

Create economic and cultural factors towards two children per family.

I dont think it should be about how many australia can carry, but about how many is the rational amount, taking into account climate change, species depletion, bushland destruction, resource depletion, pollution, etc.

[Ean Austral]

I wasn't meaning for it to be political or I would have posted it in current affairs , which restricts other forum members from this information.

Currently all streams and river levels .....unless there has been rainfall in their catchments.....throughout Australia are reported to be at their lowest levels or dry.

According to BOM there is no immediate good outlook for rain anywhere in Australia in the near future.

It should be of interest to all as water restrictions will very quickly be placed upon us.

All this from a country that hasnt built a new dam in something like 30 plus years . Millions upon millions of litres of water goes down the drain during our wet season up here year after year. Our main dam has overflowed the last 6 yrs in a row. I cant understand why when built the railway line from SA to Darwin they didn't put a underground water pipe alongside it whilst they had all the workers and machinery already there. could have TEE'd it at Tennent creek and ran it to Mt Isa and beyond.

Its the typical shortsightedness of consecutive governments and it wont change in the near future. We could solve most of our issue's but no one has the foresight to start investing in the infrastucture to link the whole country , not just the big eastern states.

Just my 2c

Cheers Ean

[Roverlord off road spares]

Apparently, the third most common cause of death (in the USA, at least) is by medical error!
After heart disease and cancer, doctors are the most lethal thing in First World countries! :oops2:
And Yank doctors charge a fortune to kill you.

[Hugh42732]

Somehow I find this relevant

YouTube (https://youtu.be/RYB4rokqmfM)

Don’t have time to do a detailed response but “BS” springs to mind....

Try a realistic figure of 18-40 litres/kg of edible meat yield is far from his 1500 litres so guess the rest of his figures are vegan/animal activist propaganda as well....

[Homestar]

Desalination plants will solve all our issues....

[weeds]

Desalination plants will solve all our issues....

They are power hungry.....How do we power them.....

[Homestar]

Somehow I find this relevant

YouTube (https://youtu.be/RYB4rokqmfM)


Good find mate, yes I believe it is relevant.

The world bovine population is only there because we want to eat their meat and drink their milk , neither of which are necessary to support our lives......but never the less most enjoyable.

Well I'm sure as **** not going Vegan while my arse points to the ground and most of the population is the same, so it will either kill us or we'll have to find a solution. I find the propaganda from these people unpalatable at best too. While some of their claims may be close, they also sprout all sorts of BS about how little of the meat is used and how wasteful the industry is and how cruel it is, etc. There isn't anything left but the moo by the time they are processed and for those that say 'Would you still eat cows if you went to an Abattoir?' - answer is I have and I still do.

I won't continue, we probably need a whole new thread on Vegans and how they are ****ing the world too. They're the first ones I'd ban from breeding...

[Homestar]

They are power hungry.....How do we power them.....

Nuclear of course... [biggrin]

Desal plants and Nuclear power stations have to be built near 2 things so they are a perfect match to be built next to each other - a water supply and a halfway decent part of the grid (which the Vic one isn't really, but not hard to get a decent Terminal station to it) Problem solved. Would I have one in my backyard? Yep, sure would. Be an easy commute to work then...

[martnH]

Following that logic, where stop population growth is the key to sufficient water supply, not to build more dams etc..

Then for the survival of mankind, we should get rid of ppl over 65 as in, they no longer produce or reproduce.

[bee utey]

Who's "WE", Kemosabe? Things will be out of "our" control soon enough and no-one will be able to stop the hungry hordes.

[Mick_Marsh]

And what should appear in the news today?
Mining downturn makes way for 'mini-boom' as WA businesses warn against population cap - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-02/mini-mining-boom-sees-wa-companies-warn-against-population-cap/10329120)

[Ferret]

And after reports of the driest year in Australia for however long in the initial post, we in the west have had one our wettest winter for 15 - 20 years.

Anyway, good luck with attempts to control population. People can't even agree on trivia across the country.

[goingbush]

Following that logic, where stop population growth is the key to sufficient water supply, not to build more dams etc..

Then for the survival of mankind, we should get rid of ppl over 65 as in, they no longer produce or reproduce.

I think the ones that reproduce are the problem.

Then theres always soylent green !!

[donh54]

Following that logic, where stop population growth is the key to sufficient water supply, not to build more dams etc..

Then for the survival of mankind, we should get rid of ppl over 65 as in, they no longer produce or reproduce.

If over 65's no longer produce, why do they keep pushing out the retirement age?

[donh54]

Well I'm sure as **** not going Vegan while my arse points to the ground and most of the population is the same, so it will either kill us or we'll have to find a solution. I find the propaganda from these people unpalatable at best too. While some of their claims may be close, they also sprout all sorts of BS about how little of the meat is used and how wasteful the industry is and how cruel it is, etc. There isn't anything left but the moo by the time they are processed and for those that say 'Would you still eat cows if you went to an Abattoir?' - answer is I have and I still do.

I won't continue, we probably need a whole new thread on Vegans and how they are ****ing the world too. They're the first ones I'd ban from breeding...

If we weren't supposed to eat animals, they wouldn't be made out of meat!!!

[auslizard]

I personally am of the belief that population growth will take us to the stars and beyond and that the world is sustainable at this level or more if we got serious as a human race. ( I hope this is not only able to be achieved by mandations etc through the un) Pet licencing I am up for but I think the dangerous thing for licensing what I consider to be a basic right of all mankind ie birthing of a child is that there will be a list of what disqualifies a person. Where will that stop? Religious beliefs, political freedom and freedom in gen are seriously at stake when one starts deciding who may breed and who may not. Limiting immigration would be a bloody good start. ( I randomly found this thread and couldn't help myself sorry :) my 2 cents) ps. Ohhhh I found the really interesting bits of aulro lol)

[Zeros]

First step: stop using drinking water for showering, washing, industry, agriculture, etc. use recycled water.

Second step: stop wasting vast quantity’s of food.

Third step: welcome all of those less fortunate and share. Greed kills.

[martnH]

The dry weather has more to do with climate change, green house gas emision , rather than immigrants

We should build more dams, reduce emission, maybe more solar than coal etc.
.....

Be careful, once all immigrants are stopped, the nazis will be after the oldies, the baby boommers

They will say "This country cannot sustain our population in light of our rainfall , which is our lifeblood , especially in view of current and future weather forecasts"

Cheers
I think the ones that reproduce are the problem.

Then theres always soylent green !!

[Hugh42732]

The dry weather has more to do with climate change, green house gas emision , rather than immigrants

We should build more dams, reduce emission, maybe more solar than coal etc.
.....

Be careful, once all immigrants are stopped, the nazis will be after the oldies, the baby boommers

They will say "This country cannot sustain our population in light of our rainfall , which is our lifeblood , especially in view of current and future weather forecasts"

Cheers

The dry is history repeating itself, I cannot link the article here but there is research now analysing the weather back 1000 years and there was a drought lasting 39 years in the last 1000 years.

The climate is changing but it has always been changing, stop the think tanks and meetings costing billions and give farmers/graziers the infrastructure to be viable during these times.

[ramblingboy42]

They are power hungry.....How do we power them.....

...are you fair dinkum?

....where have you been hiding the past ten years.

[bob10]

Time for a reality check. The Worlds population is the problem , now and into the future.


World Population Clock: 7.7 Billion People (2018) - Worldometers (https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/)

[bob10]

I personally am of the belief that population growth will take us to the stars and beyond and that the world is sustainable at this level or more if we got serious as a human race. ( I hope this is not only able to be achieved by mandations etc through the un) Pet licencing I am up for but I think the dangerous thing for licensing what I consider to be a basic right of all mankind ie birthing of a child is that there will be a list of what disqualifies a person. Where will that stop? Religious beliefs, political freedom and freedom in gen are seriously at stake when one starts deciding who may breed and who may not. Limiting immigration would be a bloody good start. ( I randomly found this thread and couldn't help myself sorry :) my 2 cents) ps. Ohhhh I found the really interesting bits of aulro lol)


I will offer my services to the breeding program, although at my age it may take numerous attempts , and goodness knows how many partners. And, I will leave this crazy place with a smile on my face.

[kowari]

This is the future more or less, science calculated that 2014 was the tipping point unless every nation made a huge effort to reduce emissions, you probably remember in the late 90s the USA and others, Australia included, failed to sign up. China has made an effort, India cant, the 3rd world are esentially oblivious.

There are still people in the developed world that think there isnt a problem! Were not going to live on any other planets, its not going to all get better any time soon.

It's a sobering thought that the loss of life in the 2 world wars combined would make no difference to the fundermental problem going foward.
Someone posted that breeding was a basic human right, theres a problem right there! rights rights wont come into it.

A reduction of some 5 billion humans would see us right, hows that going to happen?

[Homestar]

Mother nature will kill off the Billions needed eventually - it will come through starvation I should think.

[laney]

If America, China and Russia keep going at each other 5 billion + won't be a problem I think.

[trog]

If America, China and Russia keep going at each other 5 billion + won't be a problem I think.

True ,humans can wipe ourselves out , but does give us the right to wipe out other species at the same time ?

[Mick_Marsh]

The dry weather has more to do with climate change, green house gas emision , rather than immigrants

We should build more dams, reduce emission, maybe more solar than coal etc.
.....

Be careful, once all immigrants are stopped, the nazis will be after the oldies, the baby boommers

They will say "This country cannot sustain our population in light of our rainfall , which is our lifeblood , especially in view of current and future weather forecasts"

Cheers

The dry weather is due to the weather. As you can see, it's very dry here:
144908

I remember when Thompson Dam was built. It was touted as "The dam that drought proofed Melbourne." From 1984, the number of dwellings have almost doubled. Each of those houses have a garden to water, occupants to shower, toilets to flush, etc.
Limit the population and maintain the quality of life.

[kowari]

True ,humans can wipe ourselves out , but does give us the right to wipe out other species at the same time ?

They can only do that if they went nuclear in a very big way, and the radiation would make huge areas uninhabitable, most of those areas the best bits.

We can no longer kill ourselves of through war, it will have to be viral or bacterial which will become prevalent as society colapses.

Oh, and i wont be here!, and probably neither will most of you. I have 2 great grand children though. I hope this attitude of must breed changes in tneir time

[bob10]

A reduction of some 5 billion humans would see us right, hows that going to happen?


Almost every ancient indigenous culture had the philosophy of Mother Earth, to be nurtured, and revered. Our own mob regarded themselves as custodians of the country, some still do, and as such they have laws which are designed to limit degradation of the country, in a nutshell. Every human endeavour which has been regarded as progress, has pushed humans closer to their own demise. As examples, the industrial revolution started the spewing of green house gases into the air , and from that point, we started the slow downward spiral to where we are now. In their defence, humans back then were ignorant of the danger. Recently, since 1950, nuclear testing in the atmosphere has led to a massive increase in cancers. In their defence, humans back then were ignorant of the danger. In this enlightened age , we are now no longer ignorant, but greed has taken over from ignorance. And greed from a handful of ignorant humans, will , I believe , lead to nature, or Mother Earth, culling most of us greedy rapacious humans. " Modern " humans look down on our indigenous Australians, but they lived here for around 60,000 years. We modern humans will be lucky to last 500 years .

[auslizard]

The Emperor wears no clothes by Mr.Jack Herer can solve the problem lol.

[auslizard]

I worry that time and time again we allow the government to pass more and more bandaid laws wrapping everything in tape and giving over more and more freedom and control while the environment and the population continues to suffer. If I pay the local thugs for protection I expect not to be robbed in the meantime as it should just be good business for them to protect me and my shop so I continue to pay. I don't know what the betters are thinking it's all rather confusing.

[bob10]

The Emperor wears no clothes by Mr.Jack Herer can solve the problem lol.

That started the problem. Actually, opium houses probably did. And thus started the degradation of human worth, it's easier to opt out of the human condition than face up to the problems associated with it.

[auslizard]

I see we come from two vastly different places Mr Bob. Glad that people are talking about these kinds of things though. Just remember though hemp is not the same as sativa or indica and if you drink tea or coffee your consuming a more addictive substance anyway.

[auslizard]

China has upped hemp production to record highs. (Interesting side note). Land Rover built with hemp powered by hemp fuel that is what I want.

[auslizard]

This is the future more or less, science calculated that 2014 was the tipping point unless every nation made a huge effort to reduce emissions, you probably remember in the late 90s the USA and others, Australia included, failed to sign up. China has made an effort, India cant, the 3rd world are esentially oblivious.

There are still people in the developed world that think there isnt a problem! Were not going to live on any other planets, its not going to all get better any time soon.

It's a sobering thought that the loss of life in the 2 world wars combined would make no difference to the fundermental problem going foward.
Someone posted that breeding was a basic human right, theres a problem right there! rights rights wont come into it.

A reduction of some 5 billion humans would see us right, hows that going to happen?


i just don't think that this "final solution" idea is the way to go. Why can't we just pull finger out and force change to the way we manufacture and live? Because people are to busy with bs like kardashians. Sad stuff.

[auslizard]

George Carlins theory.always helps me feel better



YouTube (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c)

[DiscoMick]

The most effective way to limit population growth is to educate girls. Birth rates plummet once girls learn to read and write and get a chance at living better lives, rather than letting men treat them as baby factories. Once the national birth rate average falls below 2 populations start to decline except when there is high immigration. If the planet's average birth rate could be gotten below 2 then people could move to better countries to live and the overall planetary birth rate would continue to fall.
China and Japan are examples of below replacement birth rates following female education. Most developed countries are already at below replacement birth rates.

[martnH]

Weather is weather. Population control is another thing

Almost entire planet practice capitalism. It's based on over consumption and over credit. It will always need new market,new consumer so that there will be a demand to buy **** they don't need, and so people can produce stuffs that they do not need, and at the end, people can get a loan to buy **** they don't need.

To sustain our economy, we will always have to cherry pick healthy young men and women from other countries.

This is one of the reason why EU has to expand. This is all because of the way our economy runs.

Japan is probably the only country that doesn't have large immigrants influx. Check out their economy..Look that the flat rate of their property value and their economy. Their interest rate is negative. Not enough people to buy stuffs, not enough young people to produce and consume. also Japan will have to increase retirement age to 70.

Bu then Japanese are different as they are fundamentally xenophobic, very prejudiced and discriminary. And most importantly they seem to be able to tolerate a stagnating economy.....

I will admit op is not internally racist as in want immigrants in Australia out, but externally racist like Japan who does not wish any new comer to join us.

So immigration cap is perhaps more of a money problem rather than a climate change solution.....

[bob10]

If you have the patience to gat through some distracting noise, there are some pearls of wisdom worth hearing.


YouTube (https://youtu.be/BXvTc-BFluw)

[DiscoMick]

Weather is weather. Population control is another thing

Almost entire planet practice capitalism. It's based on over consumption and over credit. It will always need new market,new consumer so that there will be a demand to buy **** they don't need, and so people can produce stuffs that they do not need, and at the end, people can get a loan to buy **** they don't need.

To sustain our economy, we will always have to cherry pick healthy young men and women from other countries.

This is one of the reason why EU has to expand. This is all because of the way our economy runs.

Japan is probably the only country that doesn't have large immigrants influx. Check out their economy..Look that the flat rate of their property value and their economy. Their interest rate is negative. Not enough people to buy stuffs, not enough young people to produce and consume. also Japan will have to increase retirement age to 70.

Bu then Japanese are different as they are fundamentally xenophobic, very prejudiced and discriminary. And most importantly they seem to be able to tolerate a stagnating economy.....

I will admit op is not internally racist as in want immigrants in Australia out, but externally racist like Japan who does not wish any new comer to join us.

So immigration cap is perhaps more of a money problem rather than a climate change solution.....Yes, the Japanese are a good example of why population control is a bad idea.
Their population is shrinking rapidly because they don't make enough babies and don't allow immigration.
Their economy has been stagnant for decades because of low demand for housing, food, clothing, education etc because of a lack of young people.
Their population is rapidly ageing, which means either taxes have to rise or debts increase for the shrinking proportion of workers to support the growing number of elderly.
It's just a recipe for national failure.

[Mick_Marsh]

Yes, the Japanese are a good example of why population control is a bad idea.
Their population is shrinking rapidly because they don't make enough babies and don't allow immigration.
Their economy has been stagnant for decades because of low demand for housing, food, clothing, education etc because of a lack of young people.
Their population is rapidly ageing, which means either taxes have to rise or debts increase for the shrinking proportion of workers to support the growing number of elderly.
It's just a recipe for national failure.
And living space is at a premium. They are awfully small islands. Not much wilderness there either.

[rammypluge]

A lot of people are afraid of a stagnant or shrinking economy to the point of thinking everything will collapse and turn into a lawless malnourished badlands. There is some truth in that but just some. There are plenty of examples of shrinking economies that are still going okay.

But i dont think we need to worry too much about shrinking, we just need to be not as much obsessed with physical growth, on Earth.

We can still grow the economy without any negatives if we do it with education, technology, innovation, efficiency, good management, etc.

[Chops]

And what should appear in the news today?
Mining downturn makes way for 'mini-boom' as WA businesses warn against population cap - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-02/mini-mining-boom-sees-wa-companies-warn-against-population-cap/10329120)



Maybe we should head here instead of QLD [bigwhistle]

[Mick_Marsh]

Maybe we should head here instead of QLD [bigwhistle]
Can I hitch a ride in the back seat?

[Chops]

Can I hitch a ride in the back seat?


We'll have one or two containers for all our belongings to be stored in, including two vehicles [wink11].
I'm guessing you'll need at least a half a dozen at least,,, where are you going o put these whilst your away exploring with us,, and just quietly, how do you presume to get out and about when we're at a destination, both on the way, and the end stop [bigwhistle] ?

[auslizard]

If you have the patience to gat through some distracting noise, there are some pearls of wisdom worth hearing.


YouTube (https://youtu.be/BXvTc-BFluw)


https://cannabisdigest.ca/cannabis-native-americans-culture-religion/

[ramblingboy42]

Maybe we should head here instead of QLD [bigwhistle]

thats the best thing I've heard in years.....I think they even have daylight saving there......mexicans paradise

[Ferret]

thats the best thing I've heard in years.....I think they even have daylight saving there......mexicans paradise

If your talking of WA then no - there is no daylight saving here.

And those thinking of moving here - ensure you have at least 6 months on your passport and a valid visa. [bigrolf]

[ozscott]

The world will get to the point where we actually stop ripping up rainforest and Bush to graze cattle and use far less water feeding far far more people with vegies. Its bloody simple. I like l beef but haven't eaten it for a long time. Never felt fitter. Eventually the fact that we like cow won't be enough to justify actually farming and eating it. Now flame on cause this is a deeply unpopular view in the worlds biggest meat exporting country.

Cheers

[Chenz]

I am also not in favour of the current rate of immigration but my reasoning is the lack of associated infrastructure and the rabid insistence by consecutive governments to have us all living on top of each other. In a country the size of Australia there is no reason to build whole suburbs of high rise apartments. My local area, which is on a train line now resembles a third world ghetto of the future with over 15,000 units being built and a further 5,000 just been approved.

Maybe the immigrants, many of which are Asians in my area, don't know any other type of housing and are happy to live in multi-story mayhem. There is no associated school expansion, any new hospitals, you can't even get on the train, bus or ferry in the morning or afternoon and yet they keep building more.

I don't think there is a food shortage when as much as 40% of crops get ploughed back in or rejected because the consumer society dictated by the supermarkets have brainwashed the population into thinking all carrots for example are 6-10 inched long, perfectly straight and have no blemished or bumps.

Up to two-fifths of fruit and veg crop is wasted because it is 'ugly', report finds | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/sep/19/fruit-vegetables-wasted-ugly-report)

I watched Landline I think it was where nearly half a carrot farmer's harvest was being thrown out because they did not meet the standard that Coles and Woolies set. And this is the case for a whole range of fruit and vegetables. There will come a day when we won't be able to produce enough food but it is not right now

[DiscoMick]

The world will get to the point where we actually stop ripping up rainforest and Bush to graze cattle and use far less water feeding far far more people with vegies. Its bloody simple. I like l beef but haven't eaten it for a long time. Never felt fitter. Eventually the fact that we like cow won't be enough to justify actually farming and eating it. Now flame on cause this is a deeply unpopular view in the worlds biggest meat exporting country.

CheersYep, I think it's inevitable that vegetarianism will become compulsory at some point in the future because of the damage caused by grazing animals for consumption, one of the reasons for turning vast areas into deserts. Mind you, I do like a juicy steak, so I'm not applauding this change, I just think its inevitable.

[Homestar]

Yep, I think it's inevitable that vegetarianism will become compulsory at some point in the future because of the damage caused by grazing animals for consumption, one of the reasons for turning vast areas into deserts. Mind you, I do like a juicy steak, so I'm not applauding this change, I just think its inevitable.

Would love to see someone brave enough to make that call - they'd end up on the menu themselves...

[Homestar]

The world will get to the point where we actually stop ripping up rainforest and Bush to graze cattle and use far less water feeding far far more people with vegies. Its bloody simple. I like l beef but haven't eaten it for a long time. Never felt fitter. Eventually the fact that we like cow won't be enough to justify actually farming and eating it. Now flame on cause this is a deeply unpopular view in the worlds biggest meat exporting country.

Cheers

Yep, and 95% of the population still eat meat, so let me know how you get on with changing that. 😉

I'll be at the rally on the other side of the fence with the crowds opposing it. 👍

Even in India - the worlds largest population of vegetarians, there's still more than 60% eat meat.

[ozscott]

Yep, and 95% of the population still eat meat, so let me know how you get on with changing that. [emoji6]

I'll be at the rally on the other side of the fence with the crowds opposing it. [emoji106]

Even in India - the worlds largest population of vegetarians, there's still more than 60% eat meat.That's your right...for now. There will come a time, perhaps 50 years perhaps 100, but it is inevitable that stopping meat production for the good of the world will happen. It's funny how challenged people feel when I say no thanks to steak and help myself to veg and salad... I dont try to convert people but if a topic like this is raised I will post. We could run fossil fueled vehicles for the next few hundred years if we all stopped eating meat. It's just that easy. I know it won't happen in my lifetime but it will eventually. The output from bovine, pig etc is not sustainable. The clearing is obscene because the hard truth is we dont need meat to live a healthy life.

Cheers

[incisor]

First step: stop using drinking water for showering, washing, industry, agriculture, etc. use recycled water.

Second step: stop wasting vast quantity’s of food.

Third step: welcome all of those less fortunate and share. Greed kills.

arghhhh utopia

several hundred thousand years of experience shows human nature will never allow it...

even the most ancient civialisations were all conflict driven

nothings changed :p

[Zeros]

arghhhh utopia

several hundred thousand years of experience shows human nature will never allow it...

even the most ancient civialisations were all conflict driven

nothings changed :p

Utopia?...it’s already here. ...enjoy/exploit it while it lasts appears to be the dominant mantra.

Ultimately I reckon we’ll grudgingly realise that it’s our current way of life that’s utopian and unsustainable.

Otherwise climate driven conflict will most likely be our swan song.

[Ferret]

I fail to see how posts suggesting that compulsory vegetarianism would do much to control population growth.

If you want to eat weeds then good but if you want food to figure in population control then a far more effective solution would be to institute compulsory cannibalism or fight like **** over whatever other food is about.

I guarantee one, the other or both of these suggestions will bring the population down.

Now for some bacon on toast for brekky.

[DiscoMick]

I've lived in situations where only drinking and cooking water was filtered and it's not a problem. In Thailand we used to buy 20 litres of drinking water for 10 cents. Every street had a drinking water business. Anyone on tank water knows how it works. We drink less than five percent of the water we use.
As for not eating meat, I'm not calling for it to happen because I like meat, but I think it is inevitable that grazing hard-hoofed animals will be phased out. I'm happy to eat roo.
Eating vegetables can be a very satisfying experience - there are some great recipes around.

[Hugh42732]

That's your right...for now. There will come a time, perhaps 50 years perhaps 100, but it is inevitable that stopping meat production for the good of the world will happen. It's funny how challenged people feel when I say no thanks to steak and help myself to veg and salad... I dont try to convert people but if a topic like this is raised I will post. We could run fossil fueled vehicles for the next few hundred years if we all stopped eating meat. It's just that easy. I know it won't happen in my lifetime but it will eventually. The output from bovine, pig etc is not sustainable. The clearing is obscene because the hard truth is we dont need meat to live a healthy life.

Cheers

Yes intensified agriculture leaves a footprint, wether it is animals or crops, but you look at “free range” grazing and all your facts go down the drain, like the inaccurate rubbish they are.

Grazing in Queensland is carbon neutral at worst and most businesses will sequester more carbon than they produce, oh that’s right the government claims ownership of our resources to offset emissions by all the people in the cities and then claim we are destroying the environment!!!

Funny how that works.....

[Zeros]

I fail to see how vegetarianism can cause such anger to the point of war mongering!?😳

[Hugh42732]

The world will get to the point where we actually stop ripping up rainforest and Bush to graze cattle and use far less water feeding far far more people with vegies. Its bloody simple. I like l beef but haven't eaten it for a long time. Never felt fitter. Eventually the fact that we like cow won't be enough to justify actually farming and eating it. Now flame on cause this is a deeply unpopular view in the worlds biggest meat exporting country.

Cheers

With most grazing be free range/rangeland grazing and most farms being irrigated I am unsure how you can make your statement.

Add into that that a vast amount of grazing cattle happens on land that is not suitable for cropping and once again your statements fail any common sense evaluation.

Thinking that you will find that most of the clearing of the worlds rainforest is happening for crops like soy or palm kernel and not grazing.

Thinking you have already found your little drug induced utopia void of any facts....

[Ferret]

Advocating people compulsory adopt any lifestyle (religion, political view point, culture) is no different to war mongering. People who don't agree with your 'perfectly sensible solutions' will not adopt them.

They will disagree at first, they will resist next and finally they will fight against it. You see it all other world. Has been that way in the past. Will be that way in the future.

People don't act in the best interests of the world they act in self interest. Always have, always will.

[DiscoMick]

Remove cattle and sheep from a property, leave it for a decade and be amazed at how fast even bare earth revegetates.

[Zeros]

🐞🦋🐌🦄🐥🐂🐖🐓🍀🌈🥦🍅🍍🥑🌭🍕🍣

🙈🙉🙊 🍺

[Zeros]

Advocating people compulsory adopt any lifestyle (religion, political view point, culture) is no different to war mongering. People who don't agree with your 'perfectly sensible solutions' will not adopt them.

They will disagree at first, they will resist next and finally they will fight against it. You see it all other world. Has been that way in the past. Will be that way in the future.

People don't act in the best interests of the world they act in self interest. Always have, always will.

Correct. The majority of people are selfish. That is the problem.

Whether they are vegetarian or not has nothing to do with it.

[Hugh42732]

Remove cattle and sheep from a property, leave it for a decade and be amazed at how fast even bare earth revegetates.

That is like saying “stop all the people from using water out of our dams and see how much water they retain”

100% factual yet totally useless point....

I have also seen property that has had no livestock on it for over 30 years that is full of erosion due to any decent ground cover by grass to stop erosion and is in very poor condition compared to the property through the fence.

That is of course before the destruction that will occur when they burn and nearly the same amount of emissions will escape directly into the atmosphere without producing anything.

[Homestar]

That's your right...for now. There will come a time, perhaps 50 years perhaps 100, but it is inevitable that stopping meat production for the good of the world will happen. It's funny how challenged people feel when I say no thanks to steak and help myself to veg and salad... I dont try to convert people but if a topic like this is raised I will post. We could run fossil fueled vehicles for the next few hundred years if we all stopped eating meat. It's just that easy. I know it won't happen in my lifetime but it will eventually. The output from bovine, pig etc is not sustainable. The clearing is obscene because the hard truth is we dont need meat to live a healthy life.

Cheers

Knock yourself out in 50 years, I'll put it in my calandar now. 😆

The truth is we don't need a lot of what we have to live a healthy life - where do you start and stop. Don't need large houses, large blocks of land, takeaway food, alcohol, smokes, Land Rovers, more than 1 car per family, recreation grounds, parks, pets, couches, knives and forks, toilet paper...

Where do you stop? All the things I've listed above have a negative impact on the world - maybe we should just go back to living in a cave eating and you can eat weeds while I eat what eats the weeds...

[ozscott]

Homstar Food and shelter are needs of course not wants and yes you are dead right we are all consuming things that are not good for the planet.

As for the other meat positive comments... I get that true long paddock and free range beast production is fairly neutral (save for erosion and farts) but setting that aside my comments were about clearing and there has been and continues to be far too much especially in South America. Also we are a fresh water challenged country and the unpalatable truth is that it takes a lot of water to get a cow to the plate. And a lot of vegetables and grains that could be feeding people. Meat production especially in times of low rain and when fattening in feedlots is very water and grain intensive and, again, it will eventually be sin binned as not sustainable. I grew up in a family where we grew and slaughtered our own beef and loved a steak at much as anyone but I can see it's not sustainable especially at the rate of uptake and given the world's huge rate of growth. But no, let's just ignore the facts and...I know...start selling Big Macs at breakfast time cause christ knows we just cant wait until 11.30am to get one...

Cheers

[ozscott]

Advocating people compulsory adopt any lifestyle (religion, political view point, culture) is no different to war mongering. People who don't agree with your 'perfectly sensible solutions' will not adopt them.

They will disagree at first, they will resist next and finally they will fight against it. You see it all other world. Has been that way in the past. Will be that way in the future.

People don't act in the best interests of the world they act in self interest. Always have, always will.It's easy. Governments will eventually stop clearing for cattle.production and reduce water allowances save for vegetable and grain production for human consumption. Eventually meat supplies will drop and the cost of a steak will became prohibitive and people will turn to veg. So meat won't be banned as such but it might as well be.

Cheers

[DiscoMick]

Some good points there. When hard-hoofed animals are removed and vegetation allowed to grow back the local micro-climate becomes moister, so there is more rain and fewer dry periods, which will become increasingly important as we realise our climate is drying and get serious about mitigating the effects of climate change. It's only taken us a couple of centuries to significantly screw up our continent. If we go on like this the desert will keep growing and agriculture will keep retreating towards the coastline.

[bee utey]

That is like saying “stop all the people from using water out of our dams and see how much water they retain”

100% factual yet totally useless point....

I have also seen property that has had no livestock on it for over 30 years that is full of erosion due to any decent ground cover by grass to stop erosion and is in very poor condition compared to the property through the fence.

That is of course before the destruction that will occur when they burn and nearly the same amount of emissions will escape directly into the atmosphere without producing anything.

Poor land management is still poor land management regardless of whether you remove hard hoofed species off the ground or not. People need to remember that before Europeans came this land was extensively modified by Aboriginal hunting and burning practices, and unless you actively control regrowth some way it ain't gunna be a paradise.

[Ferret]

It's easy...

I suggest it's not easy since it does nothing to address population growth.

[ozscott]

I wasnt addressing the original topic. Just looked at it now!

Cheers

[Homestar]

It's easy. Governments will eventually stop clearing for cattle.production and reduce water allowances save for vegetable and grain production for human consumption. Eventually meat supplies will drop and the cost of a steak will became prohibitive and people will turn to veg. So meat won't be banned as such but it might as well be.

Cheers

Overseas maybe. How much land is cleared for meat production in Australia? We are fully self sufficient for beef and lamb in this country and most of it is grown free range anyway, with available rainfall, so not sure how that's going to be cut back.

Will all happen after I'm dead anyway so happy days - I'll keep chewing on what I want. 👍😊

[ozscott]

Not sure how much has been cleared here. I know 50 percent of our landmass is used for meat. A fair chunk near the coast in particular would have been cleared.

Cheers

[Homestar]

What's done is done - the clearing would have been over a century ago, I'm asking what goes on now?

50% for meat production? Would like to see the figures to support that claim - the ABS shows 53% of Australias landmass is used for Agriculture overall, so not sure how that figure came about. And think about it - most of the Northern and inner parts of Australia can't be used for cropping because there's no water, so all that area is either used for nothing or cattle and sheep because they can have an animal or 2 per dozen acres if needed, but you'd never grow your plants there anyway.

[LRJim]

Most of our land clearing was for the timber not farming. Most of England is built with Aussie timber!

[bob10]

What's done is done - the clearing would have been over a century ago, I'm asking what goes on now?

.

You are so wrong.


Of the eleven world regions highlighted as global deforestation fronts, eastern Australia is the only one in a developed country. This problem threatens much of Australia’s extraordinary biodiversity and, if not redressed, will blight the environmental legacy we leave future generations.
edit.

The State of Queensland has suffered the greatest loss of forests and woodlands. But while stronger laws by the mid-2000s achieved dramatic reductions of forest and woodland loss, recent weakening of laws reversed the trend. Loss of mature forest has more than trebled since 2009. In Victoria, home to four of Australia’s five most heavily cleared bioregions, land clearing controls were weakened in 2013, and in New South Wales, proposed biodiversity laws provide increased opportunities for habitat destruction.

Page not found | UNSW Newsroom (https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/australia’s-land-clearing-rate-once-again-among-highest-world)

[bob10]

And again.


Page not found | UNSW Newsroom (https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/habitat-destruction-dire-threat-australia’s-wildlife-scientists-warn)

[bob10]

And if you think we will get our protein from fish, think again.


YouTube (https://youtu.be/u04Yv-cyO48)

[trog]

Worms and insects could be the go for meaty meals , yummy !
Worms As a Food Source for Humans | LIVESTRONG.COM (https://www.livestrong.com/article/472699-worms-as-a-food-source-for-humans/)

[Homestar]

You are so wrong.


Of the eleven world regions highlighted as global deforestation fronts, eastern Australia is the only one in a developed country. This problem threatens much of Australia’s extraordinary biodiversity and, if not redressed, will blight the environmental legacy we leave future generations.
edit.

The State of Queensland has suffered the greatest loss of forests and woodlands. But while stronger laws by the mid-2000s achieved dramatic reductions of forest and woodland loss, recent weakening of laws reversed the trend. Loss of mature forest has more than trebled since 2009. In Victoria, home to four of Australia’s five most heavily cleared bioregions, land clearing controls were weakened in 2013, and in New South Wales, proposed biodiversity laws provide increased opportunities for habitat destruction.

Page not found | UNSW Newsroom (https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/australia’s-land-clearing-rate-once-again-among-highest-world)

Well that's what I was asking so not wong at all - Vic was cleared decades ago and I asked what was going on now so thanks for the link - looks like you have some work to do up there.


And if you think we will get our protein from fish, think again.


YouTube (https://youtu.be/u04Yv-cyO48)

Don't eat fish, so no dramas for me. 👍

[bob10]

Well that's what I was asking so not wong at all - Vic was cleared decades ago and I asked what was going on now so thanks for the link - looks like you have some work to do up there.



Don't eat fish, so no dramas for me. 👍


You are awesome. Facts don't seem to faze you at all. I suppose you missed the fact the law in Vic. was relaxed in 2013. There must be a couple of trees you lot missed.

[martnH]

But....
You will hit like a vegetarian....

[Homestar]

You are awesome.

Thankyou - I know. 👍

Hmmm, might use that one as my signature. 😉

[ozscott]

What's done is done - the clearing would have been over a century ago, I'm asking what goes on now?

50% for meat production? Would like to see the figures to support that claim - the ABS shows 53% of Australias landmass is used for Agriculture overall, so not sure how that figure came about. And think about it - most of the Northern and inner parts of Australia can't be used for cropping because there's no water, so all that area is either used for nothing or cattle and sheep because they can have an animal or 2 per dozen acres if needed, but you'd never grow your plants there anyway.They no longer have this on the MLA website.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181006/00990a60695aa56fb142c14542ae83c7.jpg

[Zeros]

There is some seriously scary passive aggressive vegetarian = somehow unsustainable population growth wierdness going on here.

Vive la difference people! ...anyone who thinks everyone should think like them is asking for a seriously utopian - brainwashing doesn’t work - wakeup call.

The health of the environment will not be solved by putting up big fences and telling everyone other than you and your mates to F off. Population growth is inevitable. Diversity is inevitable.

Sharing and and caring is the way forward. But if you really want war you’re welcome to your perspective, but dont be surprised if you regret it.

Isn’t Land Rover and this site all about brother / sisterhood? - IE sharing and caring. If that’s utopian, so be it.

[Homestar]

They no longer have this on the MLA website.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181006/00990a60695aa56fb142c14542ae83c7.jpg

That doesn't say they have livestock on that landmass, just that they own it. In the same way I wouldn't believe McDonalds about healthy eating I'll take that as the industry blowing their own trumpet. I'll take the ABS's figures or other verifiable documentation. 👍

Bring on the steak. 👍

[Hugh42732]

You are so wrong.


Of the eleven world regions highlighted as global deforestation fronts, eastern Australia is the only one in a developed country. This problem threatens much of Australiaâ€[emoji769]s extraordinary biodiversity and, if not redressed, will blight the environmental legacy we leave future generations.
edit.

The State of Queensland has suffered the greatest loss of forests and woodlands. But while stronger laws by the mid-2000s achieved dramatic reductions of forest and woodland loss, recent weakening of laws reversed the trend. Loss of mature forest has more than trebled since 2009. In Victoria, home to four of Australiaâ€[emoji769]s five most heavily cleared bioregions, land clearing controls were weakened in 2013, and in New South Wales, proposed biodiversity laws provide increased opportunities for habitat destruction.

Page not found | UNSW Newsroom (https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/australia’s-land-clearing-rate-once-again-among-highest-world)

The thing is with vegetation management in Queensland is that you knock it down as it gets to thick then 10 years later it is back and you do it again.

Don’t know why Queensland is different from southern states, maybe stocking density, as where we average around a beast to 7 acres I know people in Victoria that run 1 to 1 and bale twice a year.

The premier even admitted that while they claim extensive land clearing they do not know the percentage of land cleared that is regrowth but it would be minimal as even under the “relaxed” laws clearing of remnant vegetation was only allowed under permit.

Don’t believe everything the government/news papers tell you.

[Hugh42732]

Of course there is no limit on clearing remnant vegetation to replace it with cement and bitumen and iron as that doesn’t seem to effect the environment....

[ramblingboy42]

A lot of you have taken on the increase of population in Australia as a food consumption/production problem.

This will probably never be the case as primary producers react continuously to population demand.

What does occur though is a continuous demand for housing and the additional infrastructure associated with it. You know...roads , sewerage , power, supermarkets, recreational facilities ,etc etc

What this in turn creates is increased heat sink. This actually changes local weather patterns , because the concrete/bitumen/reflecting glass etc holds heat into domestic areas for longer periods each day. This changes anabatic/ katabatic winds and also onshore/offshore wind periods which affects inland moisture and temperature distribution.

This can already be seen if you look at BOM temperatures and weather as our population increases.....it is only happening as we rapidly increase our population.

Our current crop of politicians who preach increased migration to boost economy will not be here to see the outcome.

Everybody is totally free to believe what they want , but science will not be denied. There is no power to assist.

[Chops]

You are awesome.


I wouldn't say he was "awesome" exactly,,, but we think he's pretty special [thumbsupbig]

[Homestar]

Who needs enemies with friends like that...

[rammypluge]

Supposedly the average westerner eats too much meat, meaning it is unhealthy for them and may reduce their lifestyle and longevity (that partly includes me right now).

There seem to be both positive and negative environmental consequences of humans eating too much meat.

Positives: kills people quicker reducing their environmental impact, meat production occupies space and consumes resources thus reducing possible human populations.

Negatives: meat production has direct negative environmental consequences.

If they can make tasty and nutritious burger patties from bugs things might change slowly (?).

We will know fish stocks are critical when the prices go up and up (?).

[bob10]

Thankyou - I know. 👍

Hmmm, might use that one as my signature. 😉

And I thought the AGA Khan was up himself. [biggrin]

[V8Ian]

The thing is with vegetation management in Queensland is that you knock it down as it gets to thick then 10 years later it is back and you do it again.

Don’t know why Queensland is different from southern states, maybe stocking density, as where we average around a beast to 7 acres I know people in Victoria that run 1 to 1 and bale twice a year.

The premier even admitted that while they claim extensive land clearing they do not know the percentage of land cleared that is regrowth but it would be minimal as even under the “relaxed” laws clearing of remnant vegetation was only allowed under permit.

Don’t believe everything the government/news papers tell you.
Sugar cane, a crop, not livestock farming.

[Hugh42732]

Positives: kills people quicker reducing their environmental impact, meat production occupies space and consumes resources thus reducing possible human populations.

Negatives: meat production has direct negative environmental consequences.
(?).

Based on what?

[Homestar]

And I thought the AGA Khan was up himself. [biggrin]

He's got nothing on me I can tell you but has a few more followers. 😆 FIGJAM.

[rammypluge]

Based on what?High meat consumption correlates with increased heart disease and more, killing people quicker, and thus reducing their environmental impact.

Meat production occupies more space and resources than most other food products. (But it does use land typically less suitable for other types of food production.)

Grazing typically has more negative than positive environmental impacts. Any clearing of the native vegetation is typically enough to ensure an overall negative impact, whether that is done by humans or the animals.

All that being said i dont think it should be the prime focus of discussions about Australia's ideal population.

[Zeros]

Arguably the ideal population of the continent is impossible to gauge. Utopian ideal vs utopian ideal. But there are many factors that would improve the health of the environment that sustains us all.

Eating native animals more suited to the environment is a no brainer for meat eaters.

Without meat, production of protein vegetables such as legumes would need to sky rocket.

Less land clearing across the board is better for the environment.

Monocultures of any kind, whether meat or vegetable are problematic on land not suited.

[ramblingboy42]

quote..Arguably the ideal population of the continent is impossible to gauge...unquote

the ideal population for our continent HAS been gauged.

we are way over our recommended limit already.

[DiscoMick]

The ideal population depends of how we behave. Currently, we are one of the most wasteful and destructive societies on earth. If we changed our ways and learned to tread lightly, we could support many more people.

[bob10]

He's got nothing on me I can tell you but has a few more followers. 😆 FIGJAM.

FIGJAM ? I assume that's some kind of childish local expression ?

[rick130]

FIGJAM

**** I'm Good Just Ask Me [emoji23]

[LRJim]

FIGJAM ? I assume that's some kind of childish local expression ?**** I'm good just ask me. I had to Google it lol

[bob10]

Got it. I must be slowing down in my old age. I appreciate a sense of humour, good one.

[Zeros]

The ideal population depends of how we behave. Currently, we are one of the most wasteful and destructive societies on earth. If we changed our ways and learned to tread lightly, we could support many more people.

Exactly, hence impossible to guage.

It’s not about selecting the right number of people for some kind of exclusive paradise island and putting a fence up, it’s about being smarter and more compassionate, better appreciating, conserving, sharing and welcoming the world.

Brexit is already imploding.

[martnH]

It's all about perspective. This really should be the first thing we do before making an argument.

If you look at it from a personal perspective and you happened to live in high density populated area, then you will probable say stuff that we have enough already. No more

If personal perspective and live in rural area, you will want more immigrants. More cheap labour to pick the Fruits etc....

Unless you are on welfare then maybe you will blame the immigrants for lack of handouts.

If you retired, no mortgage and not on pension, then you will want fewer people. (Who wouldn't?

If retired but on pension, you will want more immigrants to pay that pension money. If you are smart.....

If you the boss and want to hire, more immigrants please

If you the worker and well nobody likes competition, then nono we had enough already. I was getting $40 /hr now only $20

If you look at it from a social perspective, then you will probably realize Australia can get highly educated young immigrants of reproductive age for free (almost free). These immigrants got trained and educated (got invested as in human capital) elsewhere, and just when they have become the most productive member of their society, they come here and contribute. You gonna say we are lucky. Not many nations on this planet can do that. Cheryy picking the best.and thus in the end the entire society benefits

If you focus on the refugees, Muslim terrorist, well.........I don't know what to say

So what is the context of your statement?

To be honest, personally I will want to reduce the immigrants influx now this year ,2018 so that property market will crash. Because I sold all of mine last year. And will buy them back at low point

[ramblingboy42]

They are just your perspectives.

I could counter argue every one of them.

[rammypluge]

Quote: "If you look at it from a social perspective, then you will probably realize Australia can get highly educated young immigrants of reproductive age for free (almost free). These immigrants got trained and educated (got invested as in human capital) elsewhere, and just when they have become the most productive member of their society, they come here and contribute. You gonna say we are lucky. Not many nations on this planet can do that. Cheryy picking the best.and thus in the end the entire society benefits".

This is mostly true, but is not good for young australians trying to build a career against increased competition.

[rammypluge]

I once had a deeper look into the idea of creating an inland sea in australia by allowing the sea in. It might work and transform australia's precipitation and all that comes with that. But then it became clear that we would be loosing some of our wildest most remote places. They are special, and there are already plenty of people and cities around.

Yet its also true that more minds gets more done; more science, more technology, more space exploration etc, more writers, etc etc.

[bob10]

I once had a deeper look into the idea of creating an inland sea in australia by allowing the sea in. It might work and transform australia's precipitation and all that comes with that. But then it became clear that we would be loosing some of our wildest most remote places. They are special, and there are already plenty of people and cities around.

Yet its also true that more minds gets more done; more science, more technology, more space exploration etc, more writers, etc etc.

Give it a decade or two, and that will probably happen naturally.

[bee utey]

Give it a decade or two, and that will probably happen naturally.

Rainfall or sea level rise? The first is unlikely to beat evaporation and there's a sill of around 100 metres altitude north of Yorkey's Crossing that has to be breached for the latter.

[Zeros]

Save paradise, put up a parking lot.

[rammypluge]

Rainfall or sea level rise? The first is unlikely to beat evaporation and there's a sill of around 100 metres altitude north of Yorkey's Crossing that has to be breached for the latter.Sounds like we would need a badass tsunami then.

[donh54]

By Michael McClennen, Research Informaticist, Department of Geoscience, UW-Madison, as posted on Quora website 13 May 2018;

The strongest argument against veganism is that it is not a natural diet for humans. We, along with our fellow apes, evolved to be omnivores. Chimpanzees eat meat whenever they can get it, and the gorillas and orangutans consume substantial quantities of insects and occasional bird eggs.

It is difficult for any human to maintain optimal heath without some animal food in our diet, and it is simply impossible for many people. To the few people who are able to do so, I say “good for you, but please don’t assume that what is possible for you is also possible for everybody else.”

In addition, eating a vegan diet does not mean that you are not harming any animals. A friend of mine who grew up on a farm told me that every time the combine harvesters cross a field they leave a trail of mice, rabbits, birds, and other small animals that have been literally chopped to bits by the harvester blades.

Crop farming also involves the deaths of many animals from poison, as well as causing the deaths of others by displacing the plants they would otherwise have eaten. It is utterly impossible to grow crops on a scale large enough to feed the human race without causing enormous disruption to the ecosystem and without directly causing animal deaths. This is a sad fact, but it is true.

Anybody who believes they are being morally superior by eating a vegan diet is simply fooling themselves.

Just Sayin' [bigwhistle]

[ozscott]

Don this is a good web site for summaries to peer reviewed studies not paid for by big Dairy and Big meat. The studies are convincing that vege is the way to go.

NutritionFacts.org | The Latest in Nutrition Related Research (https://nutritionfacts.org)

Cheers

[rammypluge]

In terms of veganism, my thinking is that there is no argument, we have evolved as omnivores, and therefore, very strong, very proven science would need to come forth in order to justify discarding a precautionary principle in favour of at least some consumption of animal products.

From the get go we are carnivores as such, feeding off special blood(?) in our mother's womb, and are omnivores in the first few weeks or months of feeding off human milk. No such thing as a vegan from conception.

[loanrangie]

Finally a poly has brought up an idea that i have been talking about for years, don't put the new immigrants into a crowded high rise near the CBD put them in a rural city/town that needs a population boost to be more viable. This boost would make having a school, medical centre etc economically viable for a regional are that would otherwise die.
This would especially suit those non educated, low skilled people that have come from mostly farming areas - give them a plot of land to work.

[austastar]

Hi,
Back in the 50s all subsidised migrants had to live/work where they were told to. Thus some of our early major infrastructures were built with this labour.
Cheers

[loanrangie]

Hi,
Back in the 50s all subsidised migrants had to live/work where they were told to. Thus some of our early major infrastructures were built with this labour.
Cheers

And thats how it should be now, different if they came in by the official means and pass a skills test.

[austastar]

Hi,
They were all assessed and passed the relevant criteria before being allowed to emigrate.
They were wanted; probably why most fitted in so well.
Cheers

[ozscott]

In terms of veganism, my thinking is that there is no argument, we have evolved as omnivores, and therefore, very strong, very proven science would need to come forth in order to justify discarding a precautionary principle in favour of at least some consumption of animal products.

From the get go we are carnivores as such feeding off special blood(?) in our mother's womb, and omnivores in the first few weeks or months feeding off human milk. No such thing as a vegan from conception.Save that we are not animals so no animal products from birth. Take your point though. Having said that babies only have milk for a finite time and we are self sufficient for that milk. What though makes us think it's a good idea to take the baby off mum's milk and start them on calf milk...milk designed to get another species, bovine, from a baby to a 1 tonne beast in a short period of time. Crazy stuff (I was raised on milk straight from the bail yard). Plenty of evidence that many early people only ate starch and similiar.

Check this out. Fascinating.

YouTube (https://youtu.be/usp1ELUTWLM)

Cheers

[Russrobe]

Forget about Australia's population growth, it's global population growth that's the problem. We need something to come by and wipe out 30M people asap. How could someone can look at the predicted population growth to 10B people within 50 years from now and not see an issue.

Biggest problem is most of that growth is in developing countries, so if we bought in a 1 child policy like China had, it would make little to no difference.

WHO is obviously expecting something pretty big to happen between now and then, because that curve isn't going to drop off by itself.

[Mick_Marsh]

Forget about Australia's population growth, it's global population growth that's the problem. We need something to come by and wipe out 30M people asap. How could someone can look at the predicted population growth to 10B people within 50 years from now and not see an issue.

Biggest problem is most of that growth is in developing countries, so if we bought in a 1 child policy like China had, it would make little to no difference.

WHO is obviously expecting something pretty big to happen between now and then, because that curve isn't going to drop off by itself.
There was an American chap who explained that really well using gum balls.
It's on youtube.

[DiscoMick]

As I said earlier, educating girls causes a sharp drop in the birth rate.

[ozscott]

There is a large body of evidence to show we should avoid dairy. This vid is 9 years old but compelling. And a lot of evidence since supporting Dr Mcdougall as to this .

YouTube (https://youtu.be/TJvrlwnEqbs)

Cheers

[DiscoMick]

Educate a girl for 12 years compared with 0 years and she is likely to have 4-5 fewer children. It's that simple.

Climate change, fertility and girls’ education (https://www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2016/02/16/climate-change-fertility-and-girls-education/amp/#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s)

[Russrobe]

As I said earlier, educating girls causes a sharp drop in the birth rate.

Unfortunately education would do pretty much nothing for the birth rate in these countries because the fact is most of them are getting pregnant during non consensual sex.

[Russrobe]

There was an American chap who explained that really well using gum balls.
It's on youtube.

Yep, basically he points out that we currently have 4 generations alive at once as we're living much longer. Each generation is multiplying and branching out, so it's a double wham effect.

If 2 adults have 2 kids who produce 2 kids each, you've got 8 people alive within 3 generations, but the grandparents are still kicking on too.

Exponential growth, which make it easy to make a fairly accurate mathematical prediction.

[trog]

I like to think I have done a little to be part of a less populous human species. I have no kids , only one sister , with two , and the greatest number of siblings on either parents side was three. Of these half decided not to have kids either. Maybe the family line and name will die out , not worrying.

[123rover50]

We are the same . No kids.
The European families are like that but the others with multiple wifes are popping out kids all over the place.
Our lot will die off and the other lot multiplies and inherits the earth.

[Zeros]

Anyone who lives a life where they can choose whatever they want to eat, has a responsibility to make many cultural, political and lifestyle changes beyond their diet to better care for the planet and half it’s population who are not so fortunate. ...admittedly, something that’s much easier to say than to do. Any real world suggestions most appreciated.

Our water bill last quarter was $26. Our gas bill a little more. Firewood over winter $350. We live in a small house. We grow veggies. We work within 10 mins of home. We work with many people outside the mainstream and from diverse cultures. We do a lot of voluntary work. We tread lightly, care for the environment, make compost, recycle, share what we have with others.

We have friends who are vegetatarian but it’s not for us. We eat meat ( lots of kangaroo, but also everything else as long as it’s free range / organic) and veggies, we have three cars (that’s my fault) but I can’t drive more than one at a time LOL, we drink coffee, enjoy wine.

We are very fortunate and we live simply.

[DiscoMick]

Unfortunately education would do pretty much nothing for the birth rate in these countries because the fact is most of them are getting pregnant during non consensual sex.No, the studies show a sharp decline in the birth rate in countries where girls are educated. See the link I posted above. It really works.

[Russrobe]

No, the studies show a sharp decline in the birth rate in countries where girls are educated. See the link I posted above. It really works.

You can't lie about those stats, but consider what the same people in the same places are teaching the boys too. That same website outlines how focused they are on teaching boys morals to avoid the rapes happening.
What about the boys? Educating boys for gender justice (https://www.brookings.edu/blog/education-plus-development/2018/06/01/what-about-the-boys-educating-boys-for-gender-justice/)

This is the culture that exists:
"Boys also held a morepositive view about forced sex than girls since they associated itmore often with signs of love, as an appropriate way to satisfysexual urges, and as acceptable if the girl was financially dependent on the boy.The perception that peers and friends consideredforced sex to be an effective way to punish a female partner wasalso more common among boys. On the other hand, boys wereless knowledgeable about the health and legal consequences offorced sex, but no significant differences were found for othersociocognitive items,such as self-efficacy and behavioral intention items.Consequently,health education programs are neededto inform both boys and girls about the risks of forced sex, toconvince boys and their friends about its inappropriateness andgirls to empower themselves to avoid forced sex."

De Vries, H., Eggers, S. M., Jinabhai, C., Meyer-weitz, A., Sathiparsad, R., & Taylor, M. (2014). Adolescents' beliefs about forced sex in KwaZulu-natal, south africa. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 43(6), 1087-95. doi:Shibboleth Authentication Request (http://dx.doi.org.ezproxy.ecu.edu.au/10.1007/s10508-014-0280-8)

So you're right education works, but it's mostly about educating morals and the equality of women (who definitely deserve an education too!).

Continues with these figures, showing 28% of men have raped=O . So clearly this issue needs some major role model mix ups and changes to their view of what society should be like.

"Gender violence among South African adolescents has beendocumented extensively. Studies consistently show high rates ofboys and girls reporting being forced into sex (Jewkes & Morrell,2010; Mathews, 2008; Reddy et al., 2010; Sathiparsad, 2008).Jewkes and Abrahams (2002) reported in their review an incidenceof 2,070 incidents per 100,000 women per year, withcoerced forms of sex being a common problem in schools,workplaces,and among peers. Jewkesetal.(2006a) found that,amongmen aged 15–26 years, 16.3 % had raped a non-partner or participatedin a form of gang rape and 8.4 % had been sexuallyviolent towards an intimate partner. Jewkes and Morrell (2010)found that 42 % of men disclosed perpetration of intimate partnerviolence and 28 % disclosed rape of a woman or girl.

[bob10]

Rainfall or sea level rise? The first is unlikely to beat evaporation and there's a sill of around 100 metres altitude north of Yorkey's Crossing that has to be breached for the latter.

What about down thru the Gulf via the channel country? Pretty well flat most of the way.

[bob10]

Maps of Australia's ancient inland sea.


australian inland sea history - Bing images (https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=australian+inland+sea+history&qpvt=australian+inland+sea+history&FORM=IGRE)

[rammypluge]

In china it is illegal for a hospital to reveal the sex of a foetus.......

They are also now encouraging more babies, as they are worried that the population will reduce too quickly.

Hmm.

[LRT]

Interesting solution Japan seems to be trying to come up with to solve their low population problems.

Early days but should be pretty impressive in 10 years time.

Humanoid construction robot installs drywall by itself (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.engadget.com/amp/2018/10/01/aist-humanoid-robot-installs-drywall/)

[bee utey]

What about down thru the Gulf via the channel country? Pretty well flat most of the way.

Bit of a ridge along the Barkly Highway.

Maps Of Australia Elevation And Cities Topographic Map | mytabletresource (http://mytabletresource.com/maps-of-australia/80986/maps-of-australia-elevation-and-cities-topographic-map/)

[bob10]

Bit of a ridge along the Barkly Highway.

Maps Of Australia Elevation And Cities Topographic Map | mytabletresource (http://mytabletresource.com/maps-of-australia/80986/maps-of-australia-elevation-and-cities-topographic-map/)


Of course, the Barkly tableland, rises to 300 metres at the NT / Qld border. However have a look east of Cloncurry, down to Boulia. Love to get a topographical map of the area.

[donh54]

Of course, the Barkly tableland, rises to 300 metres at the NT / Qld border. However have a look east of Cloncurry, down to Boulia. Love to get a topographical map of the area.

Lowest point on the Flinders Highway would be around 120m ASL at the Gilliat River - which feeds north into the Flinders / Cloncurry systems.

[trog]

Maps of Australia's ancient inland sea.


australian inland sea history - Bing images (https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=australian+inland+sea+history&qpvt=australian+inland+sea+history&FORM=IGRE)

So after displacing all the people that have been encouraged to leave the seaside fringe , businesses that have become inundated, what becomes of the native flora and fauna that has evolved to the present conditions ?
Would this sea be fresh , brackish or salt water ?
I think it would be easier and cheaper to rethink “big population “.

[ramblingboy42]

quote..I think it would be easier and cheaper to rethink “big population “.

.......and therein lies a simple statement that affects so much of what we do.

Lets not do the hard yards lets take the easy and cheap way out to supposedly solve our world problems.

[DiscoMick]

We're already one degree hotter and rapidly heading for 2 degrees, possibly in my remaining lifetime. That means the land is already getting hotter and drier and the desert is spreading. Droughts are no longer unusual, they are the new normal. People are already moving from the inland to the coastal fringe. Decentralisation is a myth. The opposite is happening.
Meanwhile the ocean is already warming and rising as the ice melts. The coral reefs are dying. As the water comes up the population will be forced back onto higher land. More of our continent will be submerged and there will be less dry land.
We still export most of the food we produce, but we also import a lot of food. If our food imports were threatened by war or because source societies have collapsed or crops have failed, then we would be in serious trouble.
Climate change, crop failure and wars have already caused about 60 million people to leave their homes and that is becoming worse every day, which will continue. Books are already being written predicting worse wars over fresh water and food. It's already happening.

[laney]

I still believe war will be our demise as greed for land and wealth push us to one last massive s##t fight the idea of mutual destruction with nuclear weapon's won't stop the button being pushed we'll turn our great planet into an uninhabitable rock any one or thing left will shortly cercome to radiation fall out and die.

[rammypluge]

My impression is that most of the ancient advanced civilisations that died, did so due to growing too much and incurring environmental catastrophes, such as soil salinity or draining the water table.

We are too big now for those issues to wipe out civilisation, it would now need to be a bigger environmental factor.

Supposedly australia has a massive surplus of irrigation potential in that big dam (Ord river?) in the NT.

[Mick_Marsh]

Supposedly australia has a massive surplus of irrigation potential in that big dam (Ord river?) in the NT.

Lake Argyle.
The Ord River Project.
Cotton was a failure but fruit and veg is really taking off.
Much of it's produce is exported to South East Asia.

Google it. It's damned interesting. One of the companies I used to work for did some projects up there.

[DiscoMick]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hd_lWdVNi_Q/UenaaY60YSI/AAAAAAAAC98/Zxzwpn2oURk/s640/map+australia.jpg

I like that picture.Not sure if it's accurate, but its interesting.

I still think we could support a higher population on less usable land, but we'd have to get a lot smarter about landuse and put community survival ahead of individual selfishness, which probably won't happen, human nature being what it is.
If we all became vegans, grew all our vegan food in factories and put public transport and renewable energy first, it could happen, but it would certainly be a different lifestyle. Of course, if things get really bad, we might not have any other choice.

[Mick_Marsh]

My impression is that most of the ancient advanced civilisations that died, did so due to growing too much and incurring environmental catastrophes, such as soil salinity or draining the water table.
And drought.
5 ancient civilizations that were destroyed by climate change | MNN - Mother Nature Network (https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/climate-weather/blogs/5-ancient-civilizations-were-destroyed-climate-change)
You'll note, these civilisations collapsed when the CO2 in the atmosphere was at pre industrial levels. This proves climate change has been going on for millennia and will continue to do so. The climate isn't as stable as we, with our extremely short lives, think.

[Homestar]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hd_lWdVNi_Q/UenaaY60YSI/AAAAAAAAC98/Zxzwpn2oURk/s640/map+australia.jpg

I like that picture.Not sure if it's accurate, but its interesting.

I still think we could support a higher population on less usable land, but we'd have to get a lot smarter about landuse and put community survival ahead of individual selfishness, which probably won't happen, human nature being what it is.
If we all became vegans, grew all our vegan food in factories and put public transport and renewable energy first, it could happen, but it would certainly be a different lifestyle. Of course, if things get really bad, we might not have any other choice.

Don't care how bad it gets, I really hope I'm dead by the time everyone has to become Vegan. I couldn't imagine it getting much worse than that...[biggrin]

[Chops]

We're already one degree hotter and rapidly heading for 2 degrees, possibly in my remaining lifetime. That means the land is already getting hotter and drier and the desert is spreading. Droughts are no longer unusual, they are the new normal. People are already moving from the inland to the coastal fringe. Decentralisation is a myth. The opposite is happening.
Meanwhile the ocean is already warming and rising as the ice melts. The coral reefs are dying. As the water comes up the population will be forced back onto higher land. More of our continent will be submerged and there will be less dry land.
We still export most of the food we produce, but we also import a lot of food. If our food imports were threatened by war or because source societies have collapsed or crops have failed, then we would be in serious trouble.
Climate change, crop failure and wars have already caused about 60 million people to leave their homes and that is becoming worse every day, which will continue. Books are already being written predicting worse wars over fresh water and food. It's already happening.


I'm at a loss as to why WE would be in serious trouble, shouldn't that be the other way around?

What will bring us undone is the lack of fertile usable land and the farmers to farm it. We have a tendency to pic the best land to build housing estates on, leaving the crap to be farmed, which as we all know, just gets left to the weeds and grows nothing.

[DiscoMick]

That's true, we're pretty dumb with our landuse choices.

'Don't call it a disaster': how to change the conversation about drought | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/05/dont-call-it-a-disaster-how-to-change-the-conversation-about-drought)

[rammypluge]

In terms of arable land and water availability, australia actually has significant untapped opportunities. If push came to shove we could do all sorts of things in affluent western civilisations. At the extreme end australia could just dig up its uranium and coal and use it to desalinate, and use earthmoving equipment to make more suitable land (after all that is already unused is used). In terms of geoengineering(?), we are keeping it pretty tame so far. Thankfully.

[Russrobe]

It's a shame big business is still putting profits ahead of the greater picture.

When Tony Galati entered the Ord River Scheme he had a great vision.( Galati Group walks away from Kimberley's Ord Irrigation Scheme, leasing mango and banana operations to interstate growers - ABC Rural - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2017-04-21/tony-galati-walks-away-from-ord-irrigation-banana-dream/8458578) ) but when companies are undercutting you by selling below cost on the major item you've just invested $50M in, you can't afford to sit there and bleed money for 5 years.

Big business is a part of the big problem here for sure.

Unfortunately, as seen here, there's a whole lot more to it than having all the ingredients such as arable land, water and supply chain. Tony has all those things, but he runs a business, and has to make a profit.

[DiscoMick]

There's no reason we couldn't grow a lot more food right here in our cities. Animals can be bred in much smaller land areas if we concentrate their food supplies instead of relying on them free range foraging to survive. Once the hard hoofed animals are moved off marginal land it can recover and also grow food. Mixed cropping is more productive and resists diseases better than mono-cropping, with cotton being a prime example of an extremely wasteful landuse.
There are lots of better ways to use our land more productively.
One theory is to increase centralisation of our population in urban areas, intensively farm the freed up better quality rural land and return the bulk of the land to being nature reserves. Overall, society would be better off.

[Eevo]

It's a shame big business is still putting profits ahead of the greater picture.
illegal for them not to.

[donh54]

There's no reason we couldn't grow a lot more food right here in our cities. Animals can be bred in much smaller land areas if we concentrate their food supplies instead of relying on them free range foraging to survive. Once the hard hoofed animals are moved off marginal land it can recover and also grow food. Mixed cropping is more productive and resists diseases better than mono-cropping, with cotton being a prime example of an extremely wasteful landuse.
There are lots of better ways to use our land more productively.
One theory is to increase centralisation of our population in urban areas, intensively farm the freed up better quality rural land and return the bulk of the land to being nature reserves. Overall, society would be better off.

Animals can be bred in much smaller land areas if we concentrate their food supplies instead of relying on them free range foraging to survive. Already done - it's called "feedlotting" and produces huge amounts of toxic waste, and meat that will eventually kill you.

Once the hard hoofed animals are moved off marginal land it can recover and also grow food. Most of that marginal land is used for grazing because it is too marginal to grow crops and/or vegetables in anywhere near an economic manner.

Mixed cropping is more productive and resists diseases better than mono-cropping It also costs a lot more to do on a large scale - which is why mono-cropping is popular.

with cotton being a prime example of an extremely wasteful landuse. Cotton employs many more people in rural Australia than other types of farming. It is also the best cash return of all agricultural enterprises. Not to mention the economic stimulus it provides in many regional towns, which would die without it.

One theory is to increase centralisation of our population in urban areas Yep, that's working really well now, what with high crime rates, pollution, traffic congestion, etc.

intensively farm the freed up better quality rural land and return the bulk of the land to being nature reserves. Overall, society would be better off. So the nature reserves will make up for the land degradation and habitat destruction that the intensive farming will cause?

Unfortunately, the simple-seeming solutions are often not the best once the cruel light of day is shone upon them.

[Zeros]

Animals can be bred in much smaller land areas if we concentrate their food supplies instead of relying on them free range foraging to survive. Already done - it's called "feedlotting" and produces huge amounts of toxic waste, and meat that will eventually kill you.

Once the hard hoofed animals are moved off marginal land it can recover and also grow food. Most of that marginal land is used for grazing because it is too marginal to grow crops and/or vegetables in anywhere near an economic manner.

Mixed cropping is more productive and resists diseases better than mono-cropping It also costs a lot more to do on a large scale - which is why mono-cropping is popular.

with cotton being a prime example of an extremely wasteful landuse. Cotton employs many more people in rural Australia than other types of farming. It is also the best cash return of all agricultural enterprises. Not to mention the economic stimulus it provides in many regional towns, which would die without it.

One theory is to increase centralisation of our population in urban areas Yep, that's working really well now, what with high crime rates, pollution, traffic congestion, etc.

intensively farm the freed up better quality rural land and return the bulk of the land to being nature reserves. Overall, society would be better off. So the nature reserves will make up for the land degradation and habitat destruction that the intensive farming will cause?

Unfortunately, the simple-seeming solutions are often not the best once the cruel light of day is shone upon them.

Have to agree with Donh here. Centralisation causes monocuktures and monocroppping to serve the central monoculture. We are destroying human diversity and ecological diversity to sustain big cities which is just as unhealthy as eating an unbalanced (not diverse) diet.

PS: this has also been responsible for Land Rover prioritising urban SUV’s and no longer building work vehicles for the bush.

[JDNSW]

........
PS: this has also been responsible for Land Rover prioritising urban SUV’s and no longer building work vehicles for the bush.

Yes! An interesting thought, but the number of people actually working on farms has decreased enormously since 1948, greatly reducing the need for small working vehicles such as Landrovers. No longer (as a general rule) is there a a vehicle such as a Landrover used for general purposes on a small farm, with a number of these farms merged to a smaller number of larger enterprises that can use multiple vehicles to fill the various roles that the Landrover was aimed at in 1948, a passenger vehicle, a ute, a small tractor, a four wheeler, a couple of motorbikes. Farms are larger, and can to afford several more specialised vehicles - and there are a lot less of them.

[rammypluge]

Nature reserves, national parks, etc, are typically the land left over when the arable land is taken up. They are typically too steep, too rocky, too swampy, too inaccessible, etc, for agriculture.

[bee utey]

Nature reserves, national parks, etc, are typically the land left over when the arable land is taken up. They are typically too steep, too rocky, too swampy, too inaccessible, etc, for agriculture.

Only partly true. Even the earliest settlers realised that you need reserves for water catchment, recreation, hunting, military training, wood for building etc and of course some larger landholders kept undeveloped land in reserve and never ended up needing it.

[Zeros]

And those who’ve been here forever before the ‘early settlers’ treated the whole continent as a sacred site, utilising environmentally friendly and sustainable farming practices for eons.

Larger popultions obviously require more more intensive farming, but there is still a lot to learn from those original farming practices which could improve the environment today.

National Parks are a moderate and sometimes marginal solution to the mass degradation of the continent by capitalism. Even citizens of the nation must pay an exhorbitant entry fee online before being allowed to enter a ‘national park’.

[Mick_Marsh]

And those who’ve been here forever before the ‘early settlers’ treated the whole continent as a sacred site, utilising environmentally friendly and sustainable farming practices for eons.
How Aboriginal burning changed Australia's climate (http://theconversation.com/how-aboriginal-burning-changed-australias-climate-4454)

Humans, not climate change, wiped out Australian megafauna (https://phys.org/news/2017-01-humans-climate-australian-megafauna.html)

[Zeros]

Interesting articles. I guess the megafauna were pretty dangerous for nomadic people and the burning up north stabilised the climate prolonging the dry season.

[trog]

Well if billions are going to be accepted as the population, maybe some form of genetic manipulation to reduce the size of each individual , say by 10/15 % ?

[Eevo]

Well if billions are going to be accepted as the population, maybe some form of genetic manipulation to reduce the size of each individual , say by 10/15 % ?

hmm, i know they sell drugs that make you 10-15% bigger and apparently satisfy any women...

[DiscoMick]

Pygmies!

[donh54]

Pygmies!

On 457 visas! They could pick strawberries, beans etc, without having OH&S issues with sore backs! :wasntme:

[bee utey]

hmm, i know they sell drugs that make you 10-15% bigger and apparently satisfy any women...

...by reducing the blood flow to your brain cells...

[Eevo]

...by reducing the blood flow to your brain cells...

want not, waste not.

[rammypluge]

Pygmies..............cannibalism works, but hey, there might be better methods.

[tact]

First step, stop all immigration.
Second step, issue birth licences. If you're not capable of parenting a child, you can't have one.
Third step, two children per family unit.

Admission... haven't read the entire thread. Entirely possible someone has already taken a far better swing at this ball:
- nearly every population control plan I have ever heard focusses on controlling the numbers of new starters (birth control or immigration) down the road we call "life".
- sure there are variations on the 3 steps outlined above but the same focus. New starters.
- all will result in ageing population and economy stagnation (vis. Japan)

Elephant in the room: Is anyone prepared to talk about culling old codgers. (I am one!)
- In larger business organisations there are succession plans etc.
- Bring in fresh new young talent at the bottom, mentor them, given them a flightpath/career path, promote from within, eventually those at the top retire and make room for the upwardly mobile.

Some movies address this... Logan's Run for example: turn 30, exit stage right.

[DAMINK]

Elephant in the room: Is anyone prepared to talk about culling old codgers. (I am one!)
.

A theory i had a long time ago was to have free medical for everyone.
Forced retirement at 50 for everyone.
Termination at 60 for everyone.

[bee utey]

Cull old codgers? Naah, just bring in proper voluntary euthanasia laws. When you are no longer able to be a contributor to society it should be an easy choice to end your own life. The aged care homes racketeers will be up in arms of course.

[austastar]

Hi,
Having witnessed the end of life experiences of half a dozen or so friends, relatives and family, in aged care homes, it is not a move I am looking forward to.
Cheers

[123rover50]

I agree. I am mid 70,s. Still getting about and fixing my own cars etc, but no way I am going into a home.
Self funded retiree so not much of a drain on society.
I hope when the time comes I am able to bump myself off. Cant do it legally so it will be the messy way. Swallow a barrel.

[Mick_Marsh]

Admission... haven't read the entire thread. Entirely possible someone has already taken a far better swing at this ball:
- nearly every population control plan I have ever heard focusses on controlling the numbers of new starters (birth control or immigration) down the road we call "life".
- sure there are variations on the 3 steps outlined above but the same focus. New starters.
- all will result in ageing population and economy stagnation (vis. Japan)

Elephant in the room: Is anyone prepared to talk about culling old codgers. (I am one!)
- In larger business organisations there are succession plans etc.
- Bring in fresh new young talent at the bottom, mentor them, given them a flightpath/career path, promote from within, eventually those at the top retire and make room for the upwardly mobile.

Some movies address this... Logan's Run for example: turn 30, exit stage right.
We will eventually reach the same point as Japan.
YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxrdaZkxFlk)

I get it. You are looking at this from an economic perspective. Yep, cull anyone who are a burden on the economy. Pensioners, that's a given. But we should also dispose of anyone else who is a drain on the economy. Anyone who is on NDIS, Newstart, family support, etc., just to be fair.

The thing is, I don't think it's the economy we should be worried about.
Have a read of the AAA’s inaugural Road Congestion in Australia report. There is also a thread on here about rising house prices. They're only rising in the suburban areas of major cities. Out in regional areas, they're falling. Everyone wants to live close to the city. And we're running out of land around the city to build on. Ther'e lots of new high rises around the city (with combustible cladding) to live in. Oh, forget about parking that big 4WD.
A mate lives in Hong Kong. He tells me, if all the people were to walk out of their high rises, there won't be enough land on the island for the people to stand shoulder to shoulder.

[tact]

We will eventually reach the same point as Japan.
YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxrdaZkxFlk)

I get it. You are looking at this from an economic perspective. Yep, cull anyone who are a burden on the economy. Pensioners, that's a given. But we should also dispose of anyone else who is a drain on the economy. Anyone who is on NDIS, Newstart, family support, etc., just to be fair.

The thing is, I don't think it's the economy we should be worried about.
[...]

No, am not coming from an economics perspective, though of course that does come along for the ride. My thinking is purely in relation to the number of beings that the closed system that we live on, the earth, can sustain.

My point was that so many schemes to address this focus only on limiting new entrants to life's journey (i.e. births overall, or population movements to a life in a specific country). A fully rounded picture would also deal with culling the old codgers constantly, trimming the tree so to speak, to make room for continuous well planned new growth.

To keep the population (of the globe, or of a specific country) at a relatively constant number that is sustainable, could be managed by simply controlling the birth rate etc.... But why not have a more proactive system in play, active culling at a certain age? This allows for better planning around the introduction of new lives to the fixed size pool. Mitigates the risks of increasing lifespans. Ensures constant fresh blood.

The actual number of codgers to be culled may need to be adjusted seasonally - To account for surprise departures through natural disasters, birth defects, suicides, etc. Given the lead time to commissioning new life entrants (9mths), any unexpected life terminations could result in an extension of time for some lucky old codgers. (How to administer that is open for discussion). ;)

[Mick_Marsh]

No, am not coming from an economics perspective, though of course that does come along for the ride. My thinking is purely in relation to the number of beings that the closed system that we live on, the earth, can sustain.

My point was that so many schemes to address this focus only on limiting new entrants to life's journey (i.e. births overall, or population movements to a life in a specific country). A fully rounded picture would also deal with culling the old codgers constantly, trimming the tree so to speak, to make room for continuous well planned new growth.

To keep the population (of the globe, or of a specific country) at a relatively constant number that is sustainable, could be managed by simply controlling the birth rate etc.... But why not have a more proactive system in play, active culling at a certain age? This allows for better planning around the introduction of new lives to the fixed size pool. Mitigates the risks of increasing lifespans. Ensures constant fresh blood.

The actual number of codgers to be culled may need to be adjusted seasonally - To account for surprise departures through natural disasters, birth defects, suicides, etc. Given the lead time to commissioning new life entrants (9mths), any unexpected life terminations could result in an extension of time for some lucky old codgers. (How to administer that is open for discussion). ;)
One thought to administer this would be to sentence all grandparents to death. When a daughter (or daughter in law) gets pregnant, you have nine months to decide which grandparent gets the lethal injection. You could do it at the time of birth. A big family arrival/departure celebration (the celebration being big, not the family). Three kids, not a problem. One of the parents must go.
Oh, for immigration, we should set up a sponsorship scheme. When your sponsored immigrant sets foot in the country, the sponsor must either get the lethal, or be deported.

Is this where we're headed? From the Hitch Hikers Guide:

Bethselamin

A fabulously beautiful planet, Bethselamin is now so worried about the cumulative erosion by ten billion visiting tourists a year that any net imbalance between the amount you eat and the amount you excrete whilst on the planet is surgically removed from your bodyweight when you leave: so every time you go to the lavatory there it is vitally important to get a receipt.

[Eevo]

banning vaccinations will help with the population problem

[Eevo]

and safety/warning labels

[DiscoMick]

Eliminating the weak and marginal was tried in WWII, resulting in the deaths of about six million Jews and millions of others, so I wouldn't like to repeat that experiment.

[trog]

A timely article submitted by the late prof. Hawking re the future of human kind.

Stephen Hawking’s eerie prediction (https://amp.news.com.au/technology/science/human-body/stephen-hawking-predicted-a-race-of-superhumans-will-take-over-the-world/news-story/b7c3e16159aab6fae53abaaa326e61c2)

[DiscoMick]

I've been watching Travelers on Netflix, in which humans screw up the world so badly that an AI machine named The Director takes over and then sends people back into the past to try to change it and prevent catastrophes. Usual Hollywood fluff, but interesting as it pictures AI as being more enlightened than humans.

[rammypluge]

I have always wanted to live forever, or as long as possible. Its true some or a lot of oldies lose marbles, but some of the keenest wisest minds are amongst them. So i rail against any idea of culling the aged. I would rather see them work a bit, for their own benefit, and the economy if it needs it. If everyone was composted at say aged 40 imagine how immature society could be.

[Bigbjorn]

An alternative to culling oldies would be to cull ferals and bogans. Most are non-productive and cost taxpayers lots to maintain. Think welfare payments, police, courts, gaols, hospitals, drug rehabilitation centres, public housing and so on.

[donh54]

An alternative to culling oldies would be to cull ferals and bogans. Most are non-productive and cost taxpayers lots to maintain. Think welfare payments, police, courts, gaols, hospitals, drug rehabilitation centres, public housing and so on.

Don't forget mid-level managers!![biggrin]

[trog]

An alternative to culling oldies would be to cull ferals and bogans. Most are non-productive and cost taxpayers lots to maintain. Think welfare payments, police, courts, gaols, hospitals, drug rehabilitation centres, public housing and so on.

Who decides ?

[Eevo]

the taxpayers

[Bigbjorn]

Who decides ?

Simple. Post a Sonderkommando with a large van at the Centrelink offices. Ferals and bogans are usually obvious by their dress and lack of hygiene, tatts, untidy hair and beards, etc.

[LRJim]

Simple. Post a Sonderkommando with a large van at the Centrelink offices. Ferals and bogans are usually obvious by their dress and lack of hygiene, tatts, untidy hair and beards, etc.Sounds like every land rover owner out there..
I forgot every modern defender owner these days wears a white shirt, tie and works in a high rise building looking down their nose at the real contributer to this country....

[vnx205]

Simple. Ferals and bogans are usually obvious by their dress and lack of hygiene, tatts, untidy hair and beards, etc.- and accompanied by a child named Harrisyn, Breeyanna or Xal (apparently that is pronounced Crystal).

[bee utey]

the taxpayers

That's everyone then that pays GST.

[Bigbjorn]

- and accompanied by a child named Harrisyn, Breeyanna or Xal (apparently that is pronounced Crystal).

We used to call these and similar SPP (Sole Parent Pensioner) names[bigwhistle]

[Disco-tastic]

- and accompanied by a child named Harrisyn, Breeyanna or Xal (apparently that is pronounced Crystal).My mum sees a lot of disadvantaged kids (she's a physio) and has come across some classic names like La-a (pronounced Ladasha) and Abcde (pronounced Absidee). I have also heard of a Sadida (Adidas backwards) and and Yvonne (pronounced Why-von-eee).

[Eevo]

That's everyone then that pays GST.

maybe you should try this thread
Jokes (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/29343-jokes-118.html)

[tact]

Don't forget mid-level managers!![biggrin]

...and phone sanitisers. [bigrolf]

[Mick_Marsh]

...and phone sanitisers. [bigrolf]
.... account executives, hairdressers, tired TV producers, insurance salesmen, personnel officers, security guards, public relations executives and management consultants.

[Mick_Marsh]

I've just worked it out!

Every time Elon's rocket crashes on landing, it's really a success.
We'll be sending people to Mars real soon. Now, where's that goat?

[tact]

I have always wanted to live forever, or as long as possible. Its true some or a lot of oldies lose marbles, but some of the keenest wisest minds are amongst them. So i rail against any idea of culling the aged. I would rather see them work a bit, for their own benefit, and the economy if it needs it. If everyone was composted at say aged 40 imagine how immature society could be.

Yeah fair comment. I will admit that I only moved on from being 16yo when I turned 45.

So to avoid the immature society peril - we can still have a 40 year lifespan limitation, just need to move the acceptable age range up from "birth-40yo" to around "20yo-60yo".

Of course we will need to figure out how to get to a place where new additions to the gene pool are not born at such an early age as happens today.

[Zeros]

The thing most seem to forget in the population control argument is that if you stop population growth you also crash the very growth capitalist economy that most in wealthy countries such as Australia seem to like. ...The standards of living most want to protect by stopping population growth would collapse anyway in a relatively short time.

[donh54]

.... account executives, hairdressers, tired TV producers, insurance salesmen, personnel officers, security guards, public relations executives and management consultants.And everyone who has had anything to do with so-called reality tv shows!

[DAMINK]

If your 60 then your likely to have already achieved what you set out to or your unlikely ever to beyond 60.

So just wipe out all the oldies 60 and over.

https://greengayle.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/simples.jpg

Let the youth have a chance to screw everything up as generations before them have.

[Mick_Marsh]

The thing most seem to forget in the population control argument is that if you stop population growth you also crash the very growth capitalist economy that most in wealthy countries such as Australia seem to like. ...The standards of living most want to protect by stopping population growth would collapse anyway in a relatively short time.
The Earth is a finite place so that collapse will have to come at some point in time.

[rammypluge]

Like it or not so far technology has outpaced population growth.

[DiscoMick]

The thing most seem to forget in the population control argument is that if you stop population growth you also crash the very growth capitalist economy that most in wealthy countries such as Australia seem to like. ...The standards of living most want to protect by stopping population growth would collapse anyway in a relatively short time.Yes, immigration is estimated to add about 1% to our national growth rate. Witout immigration our population would be shrinking. If our population is shrinking then so is our demand for housing, food, clothing health, education and so much else. Think about how many jobs depend on growth in those industries and how many people would be jobless if demand was shrinking.

[Zeros]

Yes, immigration is estimated to add about 1% to our national growth rate. Witout immigration our population would be shrinking. If our population is shrinking then so is our demand for housing, food, clothing health, education and so much else. Think about how many jobs depend on growth in those industries and how many people would be jobless if demand was shrinking.

Indeed. Without the economic imperative, one wouldn’t want do anything as generous as to accept immigrants just because it’s the right thing to do! Or simply because we live in a global world.

[DiscoMick]

If your 60 then your likely to have already achieved what you set out to or your unlikely ever to beyond 60.

So just wipe out all the oldies 60 and over.

https://greengayle.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/simples.jpg

Let the youth have a chance to screw everything up as generations before them have.

As I age by time, I think I'm actually getting younger mentally. At this rate I should be back in kindergarten by about 2030!

[Mick_Marsh]

Indeed. Without the economic imperative, one wouldn’t want do anything as generous as to accept immigrants just because it’s the right thing to do! Or simply because we live in a global world.
So, do you think we should curb population growth or let it run rampant?

This country cannot sustain our population in light of our rainfall , which is our lifeblood , especially in view of current and future weather forecasts.
Weather News - Australia's driest month in 116 years (http://www.weatherzone.com.au/news/australias-driest-month-in-116-years/528561)

[rammypluge]

Indeed. Without the economic imperative, one wouldn’t want do anything as generous as to accept immigrants just because it’s the right thing to do! Or simply because we live in a global world.What about all the creamy trained up skilled migrants we drain from developing countries that need them the most? Morally we should encourage them to stay and build their own country.

[Mick_Marsh]

Witout immigration our population would be shrinking. If our population is shrinking then so is our demand for housing, ..........
House prices will fall and people will actually be able to afford one.
Breaking news, millenials find a way to drive down house prices. (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/265614-breaking-news-millenials-find-way-drive-down-house-prices.html)

[Zeros]

If the economy goes backwards with a slowdown in population growth, house prices might drop, but a lot of jobs would be lost too I imagine.

I’m not an economist, but it seems blatantly obvious that you can’t have both: A growing economy with jobs growth and no change in lifestyle & stagnant population growth. It’s one or the other with the system we have. Reduce immigration and financially things would get really tough. Just as inflation would go through the roof with full employment.

Growth capitalism in its current form is not about people. Other forms of capitalism might need to be explored, but someone else with that knowledge would be better placed to discuss.

[DiscoMick]

House prices will fall and people will actually be able to afford one.
Breaking news, millenials find a way to drive down house prices. (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/265614-breaking-news-millenials-find-way-drive-down-house-prices.html)Not if they're unemployed because the economy has stalled.

[martnH]

Oh yeah.

Long live Communism.

I truly believe center planning economy will work, If it's the machine that does the planning.
If the economy goes backwards with a slowdown in population growth, house prices might drop, but a lot of jobs would be lost too I imagine.

I’m not an economist, but it seems blatantly obvious that you can’t have both: A growing economy with jobs growth and no change in lifestyle & stagnant population growth. It’s one or the other with the system we have. Reduce immigration and financially things would get really tough. Just as inflation would go through the roof with full employment.

Growth capitalism in its current form is not about people. Other forms of capitalism might need to be explored, but someone else with that knowledge would be better placed to discuss.

[Zeros]

I’m surprised it took so long for someone to jump to the communism conclusion.

Out of the box thinking required, not rehashing deadend failed models. ...anyone?

[DiscoMick]

What is the connection between population control and communism?

[Eevo]

What is the connection between population control and communism?
both are for the motherland?

[sashadidi]

both are for the motherland?
If you read some of the original Russian communist documents (Lenin. Troksty etc) they actually anticipated they might to have to "reduce" the actual population by up to 15% aor more to eliminate those who might "oppose" them.... (peasants etc)

[Eevo]

If you read some of the original Russian communist documents (Lenin. Troksty etc) they actually anticipated they might to have to "reduce" the actual population by up to 15% aor more to eliminate those who might "oppose" them.... (peasants etc)


might?
i think stalin did.
and mao

[donh54]

might?
i think stalin did.
and maoDon't forget Pol Pot.

[Eevo]

Don't forget Pol Pot.
was he communist?
my pol pot history is very lacking

[donh54]

was he communist?
my pol pot history is very lackingFrom Wikipedia. ...
Pol Pot was a Cambodian communist revolutionary and politician who served as the General Secretary of the Communist Party of Kampuchea from 1963 to 1981. Ideologically a Marxist–Leninist and Khmer nationalist, he led the Khmer Rouge group from 1963 until 1997.

[sashadidi]

might?
i think stalin did.
and mao

I was being diplomatic!!! but the point is people are/were nothing to them and the effects of that zealotry are still resonating 100 years later in Russia...

[Eevo]

I was being diplomatic!!! but the point is people are/were nothing to them and the effects of that zealotry are still resonating 100 years later in Russia...

i think your putin your foot in it.

[martnH]

As in communism can produce less waste.

Capitalism will always produce tons of junk. Capitalism encourage people's greed, where everyone should be as selfish and savage as possible so that the eventual welfare of entire society is maxed, none of whom intends to bring about such outcomes.* Haha
I guess Adam Smith know nothing about climate change

[Eevo]

As in communism can produce less waste.

Capitalism will always produce tons of junk. Capitalism encourage people's greed, where everyone should be as selfish and savage as possible so that the eventual welfare of entire society is maxed, none of whom intends to bring about such outcomes.* Haha
I guess Adam Smith know nothing about climate change

no, you can have capitalism without the greed. its a culture thing.

[donh54]

no, you can have capitalism without the greed. its a culture thing.

Trouble was when people started applying the Keynesian theory as if it was a fact - not a theory! :bat:

[Ferret]

As in communism can produce less waste...

But do they in reality? Couple of stories from some time I spent in E. Germany before the wall came down.

You couldn't buy a simple beer on tap at a bar during my time there. It had to be always mixed with Russian 'champagne' because somebody overestimated demand for champagne in their planning and the state over produced according to plan. I guess it wasn't wasted in one respect because you're forced to drink it if you want a 'beer'. In another respect it was waste because it represents gross over production. Both of these are aspects of the same thing - centrally planned communism.

Was browsing through what passed as a shopping mall. Was thinking of picking up some gloves as it was a bit chilly. There was big bin of mixed sizes and styles of gloves in the clothing dept, pick and choose, help yourself. Only problem was they were all left handed - another communism production stuff up.

[martnH]

Haha that's impossible

Australia is socialist. If you want to see capitalism, go US of A or China. You will see how property and greed motivates people.
That's pure capitalism
no, you can have capitalism without the greed. its a culture thing.

[rammypluge]

As in communism can produce less waste.

Capitalism will always produce tons of junk. Capitalism encourage people's greed, where everyone should be as selfish and savage as possible so that the eventual welfare of entire society is maxed, none of whom intends to bring about such outcomes.* Haha
I guess Adam Smith know nothing about climate changeLike Chernobyl?

[Zeros]

What is the connection between population control and communism?

Both are doomed utopian control freak ideologies.

[Zeros]

Haha that's impossible

Australia is socialist. If you want to see capitalism, go US of A or China. You will see how property and greed motivates people.
That's pure capitalism

The pension, social security and Medicare yes...kind of...for now. BUT we’ve already lost equitable access to education, power, water, gas, roads and everything else that’s been privatised. It’s growth capitalism with a few social backstops just barely hanging in there.