Long-term Puma Defender?

[Zeros]

I’m dreaming of doing a long-term international trip in the future and trying to decide whether to plan on taking the Puma or the old Tdi...it’s a tough choice.

The Puma is so much quieter and easier on long travel days, it has aircon and better seats.

While the significantly older Tdi would be much easier to maintain / repair around the world. Which probably makes it the better choice, but perhaps not?

Even tougher choice, which one would you invest in a Mulgo poptop for??

I know a lot about my Tdi, which has been a faithful companion in the toughest environments.
And I’ve done a few long outback trips in the Puma and it’s been brilliant, but it’s still young. So...

I’m really interested to know:
- Who has taken their Puma on a seriously extended overland journey?
- Whose Puma has the done highest km?
- How are Pumas holding up over time?

Looking forward to your thoughts

Cheers, Zeros

[weeds]

There is a member on here that has taken his puma hardtop with Mulgo conversion on a 12 month overland trip to Europe.

If you apply all the known fixes for the puma it should do it easily.

I’d put the Mulgo on the puma.

[Shoogs]

I just put a roof on my Puma with the same intent, I also have a Tdi that took us all over Africa and Australia without any issues, we decided on the Puma as it more comfortable, and about 18 years younger, and has never given any problems and has all the fixes, abut the only thing that ever concerns me is the ignition barrel and I carry a spare... Trip wont be for a couple of years yet but we will do a few remote trips, Kimberly, CSR and such whilst we get there... Vehicle has 125,000 kms on it now and probably a few more by the time we leave...

[Zeros]

Cheers, yes it makes a lot of sense to take the newer vehicle on extended road trips in Australia, not least because it’s so much quieter in the road. Also in terms of investing $11,000 in a pop top. But I’m still in two minds about whether it’s the better option for Africa / elsewhere in the world.

The Tdi would surely be much easier to repair in remote countries and cope much better with variable fuel quality. Also it’s not so shiny! So less of a trouble magnet. It’s got the long term travel patina already.

It remains a tough call for me. Any more thoughts appreciated.

[DiscoMick]

Ford Transit engines are found all over the world and are regarded as tough and relatively trouble-free. The six-speed means more economical and relaxed touring.
Defenders are relatively simple vehicles. Just fit a secondary fuel filter.
I'd take the Puma.

[bee utey]

Having recently worked on a Puma (and listened to the owners tales of woe) and worked on a larger number of 300TDi's, I'd pick a 300Tdi any day. The Ford engine and box may be a model of reliability in a Transit but I doubt that they age well in a Deefer.

[cripesamighty]

Having recently worked on a Puma (and listened to the owners tales of woe) and worked on a larger number of 300TDi's, I'd pick a 300Tdi any day. The Ford engine and box may be a model of reliability in a Transit but I doubt that they age well in a Deefer.

Also echoed by my Indy recently. He said he would pick a Tdi or Td5 over a Tdci for expeditions every time.

[Zeros]

It’s a tough call! Ease of maintenance and 20 years old? Or relatively new, more comfortable but more complex? Both are in excellent condition relative to age.

DiscoMick, my Tdi uses 10L/100km and Puma uses 12L/100km

I’ve done clutch, centre ATB & new / greased shaft, rear HD drive flanges on Puma. 80,000km. Quiet except for classic Defender body creaking on cross-up LOL.

Tdi is stock 320,000km, snorkel, dual batteries, rear HD flanges. Rattles and creaking galore. 😊

[DiscoMick]

Sounds like you've done the main things on a Puma for extended life.
Have you rustproofed it, particularly the bolts in the floor which can rust?
Fiddled with water leaks around the windscreen?
Oiled the swing arm on the heater valve on the passenger side of the engine bay near the bulkhead, attached to the cable to rotary heater dial on the dash, so it moves freely? (white plastic with a black arm which can get stiff and warp the heater valve).
I'd still take the Puma, on the theory it's less likely to break down.

[Zeros]

Thanks Mick, all good tips.

I’m not too concerned about sweating the small stuff. ...Tdi has rusty floor bolts, never impeded progress 😊 and the only water leaks I’ve ever had are when i open the door while it’s raining + the old drip on the toes from the pedals when constant water from undercarriage makes it’s way up. LOL. Defender quirks all good.
Lube heater valve - good tip.

It’s the more major - do not proceed stuff like limp mode and no spare parts - eg throttle sensor getting wet, or other electrical sensors / or catastrophic fuel sensitivities in harsh environments, that are of most concern with Puma. I have a nanocom, so fault finding possible, but finding the parts and knowhow to replace is another matter ...has anyone put together a bag of electrical replacement parts? Anything else specific to Puma in addition to basic mechanicals?

[weeds]

Just wack a Mulgo Poptop on both.....than one can be the back up.

[Zeros]

Just wack a Mulgo Poptop on both.....than one can be the back up.

:Rolling: Yeah could tow one with the other just in case :)

[Dave110HardTop]

Coming at it from a different perspective...

If the worst happens and for whatever reason you are not able to bring the vehicle home.. which would you prefer to lose?

Alternatively, if you want the warm glow of remembering your trip every time you drive - which vehicle are you mostly likely to be buried in?

Not sure if that helps as such, but its another way of looking at it. [biggrin]

[Rolly]

Very topical discussion in our house as after/during each big tripourPuma has spat the dummy
.Clutch, RearDiff,output shaft all having failed. All this froma2015 model 110, whereas mates who own (yes I know,wash my mouth out) ToyotaLandcruisers haven’t raised a Spanner.
I’mdoinganother trip to Moreton Isl followed by Tasmania and fully expecting another failure,........Frustrating.

Whereas the old SeriesII I grew up driving never even gave a hint of drama.

Land RoversQC is truly woeful, and given their blind ignorance of long known issues it’s. No surprise the brand is in trouble.

[Vern]

Very topical discussion in our house as after/during each big tripourPuma has spat the dummy
.Clutch, RearDiff,output shaft all having failed. All this froma2015 model 110, whereas mates who own (yes I know,wash my mouth out) ToyotaLandcruisers haven’t raised a Spanner.
I’mdoinganother trip to Moreton Isl followed by Tasmania and fully expecting another failure,........Frustrating.

Whereas the old SeriesII I grew up driving never even gave a hint of drama.

Land RoversQC is truly woeful, and given their blind ignorance of long known issues it’s. No surprise the brand is in trouble.And people are upset they pulled the defender, sounds like it was a good idea, and time for something a bit better.

[Shoogs]

Plenty of Pumas on here that have wandered around Africa quite successfully and the world...

The Africa Overland Network The Africa Overland Network (https://www.africa-overland.net/)

People have this view of Africa that its quite remote, the CSR is remote and maybe the Congo and Sahara however most of the West Coast and Southern and Eastern Africa has arguably the best 4G network in the world as its there only coms...

We drove around for 7-8 years total Madagascar the latest, never any issues and if we did have issues i have a great deal of faith in the locals to assist, its quite amazing what they can fix or find...

Toyotas the vehicle of choice but many die hard Landrover clubs in every country, only to willing to help.

[Zeros]

Cheers Shoogs, all good points.

Yes there are a few Pumas getting around on the Overland network. It does seem to make sense to invest in the newer vehicle and keep the old faithful for local jaunts. But the humble, simple, older character holds a lot of merit out bush.

And absolutely, the Landy network is always there, no matter which vehicle. I’ve just read ‘We Will Be Free’ by Graeme Robert Bell... Great family journeys in a Td5 130 through Southern Africa and South America, rich in Landy TLC and diehard Landy network serendipity. Worth a read. It’s honest, light reading and the endless tyre wheel issues/combos are classic.

[Shoogs]

Happily piloted our 1996 CT 110 300tdi all around Africa and the CSR and various other trips around Oz, however its now time for the Puma, just some nice touches that are hard to give up on...

Our last trip was along the Baxter cliffs/Bilbunya dunes, I wont miss the 50km/h head wind and 80km/h ground speed... but yes miss the relaxed nature.

145583145584

[Zeros]

Cheers Shoogs, what year is your Puma? How much prep have you done on it?

It must be tough to relinquish your CT Defender! 😊

[Robmacca]

There is a member on here that has taken his puma hardtop with Mulgo conversion on a 12 month overland trip to Europe.

If you apply all the known fixes for the puma it should do it easily.

I’d put the Mulgo on the puma.


I just put a roof on my Puma with the same intent, I also have a Tdi that took us all over Africa and Australia without any issues, we decided on the Puma as it more comfortable, and about 18 years younger, and has never given any problems and has all the fixes, abut the only thing that ever concerns me is the ignition barrel and I carry a spare... Trip wont be for a couple of years yet but we will do a few remote trips, Kimberly, CSR and such whilst we get there... Vehicle has 125,000 kms on it now and probably a few more by the time we leave...

Just for my own piece of mind - What is the "LIST of ALL known FIXES for the PUMA"?
Are they:


The Spud Shaft between Gearbox/Transfer
Drive Flanges (this is an issue with all Defenders I would have thought)
Turbo Hoses
Ignition barrel (Don't know much about this one - can someone please enlighten me :) )
VCV failure ??
EGR ??
Clutch ??
Any others that I've missed?

[Robmacca]

Happily piloted our 1996 CT 110 300tdi all around Africa and the CSR and various other trips around Oz, however its now time for the Puma, just some nice touches that are hard to give up on...

Our last trip was along the Baxter cliffs/Bilbunya dunes, I wont miss the 50km/h head wind and 80km/h ground speed... but yes miss the relaxed nature.

145583145584

Just on a side note.... Shoogs, with towing the Trailer behind your CT Defender Tdi, how did u go with economy + how bad did it struggle on inclines, etc?
Earlier this year we towed our trailer down to the Vic High Country and even though it did it, it was hard work, especially with any road inclines (Hwy's, etc) on the road, u were constantly back through the gears to try and keep up some sort of suitable speed on the open roads (ok if you're retired and don't have a time limit)....
The economy for that 5000k trip was an average 14.7ltrs/100kms (which is better than our 2010 Prado gets when towing the same trailer)

[Zeros]

You have two Defenders too Rob? Which one did you take to the high country? The Tdi?

Slow up long steep hills is a Defender characteristic, especially if towing. I’d rather that than a bigger engine that would use 18-20L/100km.

[Shoogs]

Cheers Shoogs, what year is your Puma? How much prep have you done on it?

It must be tough to relinquish your CT Defender! 😊

It is a 2008 SVX, Alu Cab roof, batteries, OME springs Koni Raid shocks, heavy duty turrets, heavy duty trailing arms, 255/85 tyres, remap, drive train upgrade most was done when I bought it by the the previous owner. I had wanted another Puma and the SVX with the seats etc... had me sold.

Yet to do long range tank and interior mods, i had a 2009 and sold it as we went back overseas so am familiar with them.

CT is just in storage I take it for a run every month or so, but to insure it for daily use is quite ridiculous...

[Shoogs]

Just on a side note.... Shoogs, with towing the Trailer behind your CT Defender Tdi, how did u go with economy + how bad did it struggle on inclines, etc?
Earlier this year we towed our trailer down to the Vic High Country and even though it did it, it was hard work, especially with any road inclines (Hwy's, etc) on the road, u were constantly back through the gears to try and keep up some sort of suitable speed on the open roads (ok if you're retired and don't have a time limit)....
The economy for that 5000k trip was an average 14.7ltrs/100kms (which is better than our 2010 Prado gets when towing the same trailer)

That's about right at 14.7, across the Nullabor though in 4th into a headwind... it was up in the high teens... yes quite a struggle. Mind you the CT weighs quite a bit more than average with the roll cage and roof rack etc... I do have a hybrid turbo and larger inter-cooler and tweaks as well.

[DiscoMick]

Our 2009 Puma with the six-speed uses 10.5-11 normally and about 11.5 towing our CT.
It is very happy sitting on 100kmh in sixth gear.
We previously had a D1 300 Tdi four-speed auto, so I can compare them them. The Puma is better.

[Zeros]

Our 2009 Puma with the six-speed uses 10.5-11 normally and about 11.5 towing our CT.
It is very happy sitting on 100kmh in sixth gear.
We previously had a D1 300 Tdi four-speed auto, so I can compare them them. The Puma is better.

Yes the Puma Defender is better than the 300Tdi Defender in many ways and not as good in other ways. Which is why it’s a difficult decision.

Fuel economy comparo:
Puma 2.2 - 11-12L/100km.
300 Tdi - 10L/100km

Power: Puma
Quietness: Puma
Simplicity: Tdi
Mechanical Robustness: Tdi - but with $3000 of driveline fixes on Puma, it might be better.
Electrics: Tdi - but Pumas seem to holding up well in this area?
Ease of servicing: Tdi
Fuel Quality tolerance: Tdi

...what have I missed?

[DiscoMick]

The only electrical issue on my Puma was the rear doors stopped opening because the wire from the body to the door got pinched.
One tip is to oil the arm mechanism attached to the cable on the heater valve, which is the white plastic thing on the passenger side of the engine bay at the rear on top, so the plastic in the valve doesnt warp.

[DiscoMick]

Changing the fuel filter near the fuel tank on the driver's side regularly on mine seems to have prevented any fuel issues.

[DiscoMick]

Also, make sure the right engine oil is used. LR says the right synthetic oil will last 20,000 kms, but I change mine more regularly. Oil is cheap insurance.

[Robmacca]

You have two Defenders too Rob? Which one did you take to the high country? The Tdi?

Slow up long steep hills is a Defender characteristic, especially if towing. I’d rather that than a bigger engine that would use 18-20L/100km.

Yes, currently have 2 but only had the Tdi when we did the VHC. It did it but I don't think I would like to tow with it too often as it's certainly hard work...

I haven't had the Puma that long to make a judgment call and yet to do any trips in it. Its 1st maiden voyage will be our Madigan line trip next year so I'm busy trying to get it ready for that an also become a bit more familiar with it too...

If I were absolutely familiar with my Puma and confident in being able to diagnose/fix any problems, then I also would certainly take it on Overseas touring. One of my concerns would be the quality of the Diesel around the world but I have no knowledge or experience to really know if its a real issue or not. There's no real spot to install a 2nd fuel filter in the engine bay either, so I'm not sure where u install one or if u even bother to do so and instead just carry more spare fuel filters.....

Also, again I have no experience with this but how do these PUMA Engines handle high altitudes compared to the old Tdi300 engines?

[Robmacca]

That's about right at 14.7, across the Nullabor though in 4th into a headwind... it was up in the high teens... yes quite a struggle. Mind you the CT weighs quite a bit more than average with the roll cage and roof rack etc... I do have a hybrid turbo and larger inter-cooler and tweaks as well.

That's something that down the track would certainly interest me for my old Tdi. Not having A/C on board, I've often thought about swapping out the small Intercooler for one that goes right across in front of my radiator as I thought this would give me better performance + more options of choice....

[Robmacca]

Our 2009 Puma with the six-speed uses 10.5-11 normally and about 11.5 towing our CT.
It is very happy sitting on 100kmh in sixth gear.
We previously had a D1 300 Tdi four-speed auto, so I can compare them. The Puma is better.


I would be very happy if I was to get something similar with my Puma, especially when towing..... I know my old D1 Tdi Auto is not a good tow vehicle at all, worse than my Defender.

[Robmacca]

Changing the fuel filter near the fuel tank on the driver's side regularly on mine seems to have prevented any fuel issues.

Very interested to know how u do this by yourself? How do u prime the fuel system after changing the filter on the 2.4 Pumas? I've been told u just fill up the new filter with diesel but this is not always possible, what other ways is there to prime the system, especially out in the bush?

[Shoogs]

That's something that down the track would certainly interest me for my old Tdi. Not having A/C on board, I've often thought about swapping out the small Intercooler for one that goes right across in front of my radiator as I thought this would give me better performance + more options of choice....

Worth every cent in my opinion and driven in isolation they are impressive, however against a stock Puma there is no comparison. You are still only really gaining 30nm...

Secondary fuel filter for a Puma...? Well I fitted one of these Landrover Defender 2.2L & 2.4L - Secondary Fuel Filter Kit - DCS029 | Diesel Care Australia (https://www.dieselcare.com.au/product/filtration-and-additives/secondary-fuel-filter-kits/landrover-defender-2-4l-secondary-fuel-filter-kit-dcs029/) that said fuel in Africa is questionable though have run many modern diesel engines with no issue in larger equipment, higher sulphur the bigger problem.

The main issue I have ever had in my previous Puma was an ignition barrel and there are plenty of threads on that issue, seriously considering a stop start button set up, as it failed at the service station when filling up for a 2 week trip delaying it by 4 days it plays on my mind as no warning at all.. hence the spare I carry... quite confident in the rest of the vehicle, like many say I check, double check and consistently change cheap oil...

[Robmacca]

Secondary fuel filter for a Puma...? Well I fitted one of these Landrover Defender 2.2L & 2.4L - Secondary Fuel Filter Kit - DCS029 | Diesel Care Australia (https://www.dieselcare.com.au/product/filtration-and-additives/secondary-fuel-filter-kits/landrover-defender-2-4l-secondary-fuel-filter-kit-dcs029/) that said fuel in Africa is questionable though have run many modern diesel engines with no issue in larger equipment, higher sulphur the bigger problem.

I know this is getting a bit off topic, but any chance of some photos of your Aux Fuel Filter install? u can PM them to me if that is preferred

[Shoogs]

I know this is getting a bit off topic, but any chance of some photos of your Aux Fuel Filter install? u can PM them to me if that is preferred

No problem but at the moment I am about 200kms North of Broome... in essence it sits behind the fuel cooler on the chassis rail with a well built guard/bracket protecting it, as part of the package.

Back home on the weekend and will take a photo

cheers

Tim

[Zeros]

Not off topic at all...the more info re bullet-proofing Puma and Tdi the better!

[Zeros]

No problem but at the moment I am about 200kms North of Broome... in essence it sits behind the fuel cooler on the chassis rail with a well built guard/bracket protecting it, as part of the package.

Back home on the weekend and will take a photo

cheers

Tim

Lucky you! Enjoy! Thanks for all your posts while you’re away!

[SSmith]

Very interested to know how u do this by yourself? How do u prime the fuel system after changing the filter on the 2.4 Pumas? I've been told u just fill up the new filter with diesel but this is not always possible, what other ways is there to prime the system, especially out in the bush?Rout the fuel tank breather to an accessible location and use it to pump a small amount of air pressure into the tank. Engine will still cough and splutter a little, but its simple and gets the job done.

There are hand primer pumps that fit into the system in the engine bay via a fitting near the intake manifold.

[Robmacca]

Rout the fuel tank breather to an accessible location and use it to pump a small amount of air pressure into the tank. Engine will still cough and splutter a little, but its simple and gets the job done.

There are hand primer pumps that fit into the system in the engine bay via a fitting near the intake manifold.


This is what a bloke has also told me as well... I'd like to get more info on this and if possible, some photos too :)

I think I know the point but not 100% sure

[SSmith]

This is one of the threads i read when i first got my puma;

DEFENDER2.NET - View topic - Puma fuel bleeding pump (https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic516.html)

I didnt get the pump as it takes me less than a minute to hook my air compressor onto the fuel tank breather line. I have done 2 or 3 filter changes (and a few air ingress shutdowns thanks to aux tank transfer system) that way and it works just fine.

[Zeros]

The in-tank pump on a 2.2 Puma fills the new filter in no time. Switch ignition to aux, wait for pump to stop filling. Then start engine. All good

[DiscoMick]

On my 2.4 I just fill the filter with fuel and it just coughs a couple of times and goes.

[SSmith]

The in-tank pump on a 2.2 Puma fills the new filter in no time. Switch ignition to aux, wait for pump to stop filling. Then start engine. All goodCan that be retrofitted to a 2.4? Would also be a fuel tank out job, i guess?

[SSmith]

On my 2.4 I just fill the filter with fuel and it just coughs a couple of times and goes.Works nicely, but comes with the disclaimer that you are putting unfiltered diesel into the output side of the filter. Or so I have read from far more knowledgable people than I.

Filter the diesel that you are pouring in and you souldnt have a problem.

[Robmacca]

On my 2.4 I just fill the filter with fuel and it just coughs a couple of times and goes.

That might work at home but how do u draw diesel out of the tank to fill the filter when out bush?

[Shoogs]

Lucky you! Enjoy! Thanks for all your posts while you’re away!

Its a tough life... and I get paid for it so cant and don't complain...

[DiscoMick]

That might work at home but how do u draw diesel out of the tank to fill the filter when out bush?
Never changed a filter in the bush. I suppose I could just tip the fuel from the old filter into the new filter.
Incidentally, it will still start if the new filter is fitted empty, it just takes more attempts until the new filter fills up and the fuel runs to the engine.

[Shoogs]

I know this is getting a bit off topic, but any chance of some photos of your Aux Fuel Filter install? u can PM them to me if that is preferred

Rob as requested, cheers

[1nando]

Puma assuming:
Egr delete, remap bigger cooler
Centre muffler delete

The above two mods will reduce your egts and help keep your coolant temps reasonable whilst allowing your engine to increase its service life.

Then;
-Ashcroft gearbox output shaft fix
-Hd flanges
-Locker in rear diff, peg it whilst it's out and this will be more than solid enough for a puma
- rear axles too whilst diff is getting locker
- take a spare cap for the coolant reservoir as they can start to leak slowly.
- 2nd fuel tank

That's it. After that the mods come down to personal needs

The engine mods and benefits relating to egts can be found here:

Puma 2.2 Egt's (https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaulro%2Ecom%2Faf vb%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D243318&share_tid=243318&share_fid=669&share_type=t)

Good luck

[ian4002000]

Rout the fuel tank breather to an accessible location and use it to pump a small amount of air pressure into the tank. Engine will still cough and splutter a little, but its simple and gets the job done.

There are hand primer pumps that fit into the system in the engine bay via a fitting near the intake manifold.


On my 130 tray i found that the fuel tank breather pipe didn't have a filter and lots of dirt could enter the fuel tank through the breather. Remembering that every time you empty the tank 50 odd liters of potentially dusty air entered the tank.
I fitted a 1/4 inch inline petrol filter to the breather line.
I had to change it this year due to the amount of debris it caught but its better than having the dirt in the tank.

Ian
Bittern

[Zeros]

On my 130 tray i found that the fuel tank breather pipe didn't have a filter and lots of dirt could enter the fuel tank through the breather. Remembering that every time you empty the tank 50 odd liters of potentially dusty air entered the tank.
I fitted a 1/4 inch inline petrol filter to the breather line.
I had to change it this year due to the amount of debris it caught but its better than having the dirt in the tank.

Ian
Bittern

A salient point and a simole fix. Cheers.