Jaguar Land Rover recall TDV6 engined vehicles

[kelvo]

It’s been mentioned in another thread, but thought I start a new one to keep the information separate.

Here is the recall page from Land Rover Korea LAND ROVER RACALL ANNOUNCEMENT (https://www.landroverkorea.co.kr/jlr-recall.html)

Using Google translate helps, but it gets the dates of vehicles incorrect. It should read 2010 to 2016.

Google Translate (https://translate.google.com.au/translate'sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A//www.landroverkorea.co.kr)

It’s interesting that they are saying the initial inspection to determine if a replacement engine is required only takes 1 hour. Maybe they sit on the rev limiter for 60 minutes, if it doesn’t snap the crank it must be OK, if it does snap it needs the replacement [bigwhistle]

[kelvo]

I emailed JLR Australia and the ACCC on 11-10-2018 asking about this, and will JLR Australia be doing the same?

I received the following reply from the ACCC on 12-10-2018. No response from JLR Australia yet.

”Thank you for writing to us about Jaguar Land Rover. We have recorded the details of your report. We can offer you information about recalls and where to go for assistance. If you are concerned, you should contact your manufacturer.
How to resolve your dispute

You should contact the seller to explain the problem and the outcome you want. If you are unable to resolve your issue by speaking with them, put your complaint in writing – that way the seller is clearly aware of the problem and what you want, and you have a record of your contact. You can learn about writing a complaint letter (https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/complaints-problems/write-a-complaint-letter) and use our complaint letter tool (https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/complaints-problems/write-a-complaint-letter/complaint-letter-tool) on our website.
If this does not resolve your dispute with the seller, you can contact Consumer Protection Western Australia. As your local consumer protection agency, Consumer Protection can help consumers resolve some disputes. Find out more about how to make a complaint to Consumer Protection (http://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/cp/complaint)on its website.
If Consumer Protection can’t help, you may need to take your complaint to your state or territory small claims tribunal (https://www.accc.gov.au/contact-us/other-helpful-agencies/small-claims-tribunals).
Safety concerns

If you are concerned about the safety of your vehicle, you can report your vehicle safety concerns to the Department of Infrastructure, Regional Development and Cities (https://infrastructure.gov.au/utilities/contact.aspx) (DIRDC). DIRDC is responsible for administering vehicle safety standards.
Product Safety: Recalls - consumer

You can check for recalls on the Product Safety Australia (https://www.productsafety.gov.au/recalls) website. If a product you buy is voluntarily recalled, remedies are set out by the supplier. The supplier will generally:


give you a refund, or
give you a suitable replacement product, or
modify or repair the product.

You should contact the supplier directly to find out what applies in your case.
A minister can also order a recall.
Product safety recalls do not expire. If you own a product that is the subject of a product safety recall, you should return the product regardless of how long ago the recall started.
We do not normally conduct recalls. We monitor and audit recalls, and work with suppliers to make sure the recall is effective. Depending on the product being recalled, a specialist safety regulator may monitor a recall.
We have recorded your report

We appreciate you reporting your matter to us. All information is potentially valuable to help us identify trends and where we can most effectively direct our resources, so we encourage you to report any behaviour or business practice that is concerning to you.
What the ACCC does with information from reports

The ACCC focuses on enforcing the laws we administer in circumstances that have the potential to harm the competitive process or result in widespread consumer or business detriment. We use reports received from the public and small business, as well as other sources of intelligence, to inform our work. When the ACCC takes action, it is to remedy market problems; we are not a complaint handling body and don’t resolve individual disputes. You can read more about how we prioritise our work (https://www.accc.gov.au/about-us/australian-competition-consumer-commission/compliance-enforcement-policy) and what we can and can't do for consumers (https://www.accc.gov.au/about-us/australian-competition-consumer-commission/service-charter/what-we-can-cant-do-for-consumers) on our website.
We hope the information we have provided today is helpful.
Yours sincerely”

[scarry]

I thought the dates should read,for 2.7 and 3.0, from late 2004 onwards[tonguewink]

They probably know which engines are effected,and just check the vin or engine number.

[DiscoJeffster]

This surely puts the global JLR position on bearing failure in question.
What will it take to get other jurisdictions to take notice?

[discomatt69]

A court case and good leach, oh sorry lawyer , once a precedent like this has been set by the company itself it would be a easy day in court, well a few days after their leaches oh sorry did it again , lawyers had it adjourned

[Mike57]

While the translation of the Korean recall is not perfect I read this to be more of an investigation. I wonder if there has been a higher than typical rate of crankshaft bearing failures in Korea. If for example the crankshaft failures were a result of oil dilution resulting then Korea might be a location where most vehicles only undertake short trips which could lead to this situation.

[kelvo]

While the translation of the Korean recall is not perfect I read this to be more of an investigation. I wonder if there has been a higher than typical rate of crankshaft bearing failures in Korea. If for example the crankshaft failures were a result of oil dilution resulting then Korea might be a location where most vehicles only undertake short trips which could lead to this situation.
From their FAQ section

“In some diesel 3.0 TDV6 engines used in some models from 2010 to 2016, engine misalignment due to bearing misalignment or excessive crankshaft clearance has occurred in some vehicles.

Noise and vibration occur when the defect occurs, and if the operation continues for a certain period of time after the noise and vibration, the start off occurs.”

Followed up with
“The recall will be carried out on October 29th simultaneously with the diagnosis of defects that determine the possibility of defects due to the cause in the future and the repair of vehicles that are determined to be defective during the defect diagnosis process.After the fault diagnosis, the possibility of engine failure due to the cause is determined, and the vehicle is repaired (engine replacement) for the vehicle that is judged to have a possibility of fault.Service center reservations for defect diagnosis can be made through the Jaguar Land Rover Service Center and the Jaguar Land Rover Recall Consultation Center (080-894-1000 (tel:080-894-1000)) from October 22, You can get a defect diagnosis from our service center.The goal is to complete the diagnosis and repair of the defect within 6 months to minimize the inconvenience of the customer. Even after 6 months, it is possible to diagnose and repair the defect normally.We will make every effort to get defect diagnosis and repair without any inconvenience.”

[kelvo]

Land Rover Australia replied today, but without answering the question.

”Dear Mr ****,

Thank you for your email regarding diesel engine crankshafts.


To better assist, can you please confirm your Vehicle Identification Number. Upond receipt, we can investigate your enquiry further.


Should you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us.


Kind regards,

****
Customer Relationship Centre Administrator

Jaguar Land Rover Australia”

As I am currently looking at buying a D4 I don’t have a VIN number to give them. So replied asking if they have a VIN list of the affect vehicles.

[101RRS]

I Australia enough complaints will need to go into the ACCC for them to start an investigation - like what happened with Ford with their gearboxes. The ACCC will not normally investigate individual complaints - they leave this to the State Consumer Affairs departments but if there are enough complaints to the ACCC on a particular issue they may take it on.

Garry

[PerthDisco]

Some interesting background here;

My Story - TDV6 PSA/DT17 Lion Motor (https://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showthread.php/231284-My-Story-TDV6-PSA-DT17-Lion-Motor)

I’m working towards the 240k km criteria

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181015/2a9a203c84b3113459359bcf991a30cc.png

[PeterOZ]

199 thou km in my case clunk, clunk, snap, crackle and pop - $13.3k later for a low km territory 2.7

the indie though refused to say what the actual problem was

[DiscoJeffster]

199 thou km in my case clunk, clunk, snap, crackle and pop - $13.3k later for a low km territory 2.7

the indie though refused to say what the actual problem was

Lol. Suggest the crack through the middle of the crank was a factor.

It’s unacceptable. Cranks just shouldn’t go.

[kelvo]

It seems that as long as there have been no fires due to crankshaft JLR Australia don’t care

”Dear Mr ****,

Thank you for your latest email.


Regarding your concern with the TDV6 engines, to clarify we are unable to provide a list of affected vehicles as the recall only affects vehicles for the South Korean market.


At this time, there is no recall either active or planned in the Australian market, as the recall is confined to the South Korean market. We have had no reported vehicle fires in Australia caused by crankshaft failures.


We appreciate you bringing this concern to our attention.


Kind regards,


****
Customer Relationship Centre Administrator
Jaguar Land Rover Australia”

[shanegtr]

so in the interests of helping others, if you break a crank shaft in the future - set fire to it[tonguewink]

[kelvo]

Their final response to my questions

Can you confirm that the TDV6 crankshaft, block, and bearings fitted to the Australian market and Korean market are the same?
&
Can you also confirm that there have been several crankshaft failures in these TDV6 engines.

In fairness they were never going to admit to an issue if they have no intention of having a recall.

”Dear Mr ****,

Thank you for your latest reply.


From your comments received, to clarify, whilst not confirmed, it is likely the part numbers for crank and block are shared. However, there are differences in engine ancillaries, emission controls, and servicing. From a large carparc of operational 3.0L TDV6 engines, we have had very little trouble from this engine.


We take our duty of care very seriously, and should a systematic safety related concern arise, we will in all instances move to address it quickly. To date there has not been cause to act in relation to this engine.


Assuring you of our best intentions at all times.

Kind regards,


****
Customer Relationship Centre Administrato
Jaguar Land Rover Australia”

[ATH]

Sounds like a load of bollocks to me. They'll only act when forced to. Meantime I'll keep up the servicing and won't worry about something which may not ever happen.
AlanH.

[101RRS]

Do you really think they are going to make any admissions which would open them to litigation from all quarters?

They will only take action if forced to by courts and the only way to do that is for individuals with issues to lodge a complaint with the ACCC with associated evidence - once there is a ground swell of complaints the ACCC will open an investigation.

This is what happened with the Ford ACCC investigation - final action years after the initial problem and the ACCC only started investigation when the number of complaints started to become over whelming. In the mean time Ford was denying there was an issue.

Maybe LR needs reminding of the Ford decision and what can happen if they treat customers as idiots.

Garry

[Fatso]

Sounds like a load of bollocks to me. They'll only act when forced to. Meantime I'll keep up the servicing and won't worry about something which may not ever happen.
AlanH.

Good idea , my 2007 RRS 2.7 168ks is still going well and maintained as req and sched , as the value now is just about kaput but does not make the car any less good as it always was and have had a brilliant run out of it , if the engine goes will just sell as parts and get a good second hand landcruiser but a landcruiser will never be as good as the old sport .
The new landrovers suck anyway .

[PeterOZ]

fixed mine and moved on. I do oil change every 7500km, regular mega flush of the trans.

Need to do a bit of work on the suspendsion as all bar the LCA and sway bar bushes is original.

[Celtoid]

Do you really think they are going to make any admissions which would open them to litigation from all quarters?

They will only take action if forced to by courts and the only way to do that is for individuals with issues to lodge a complaint with the ACCC with associated evidence - once there is a ground swell of complaints the ACCC will open an investigation.

This is what happened with the Ford ACCC investigation - final action years after the initial problem and the ACCC only started investigation when the number of complaints started to become over whelming. In the mean time Ford was denying there was an issue.

Maybe LR needs reminding of the Ford decision and what can happen if they treat customers as idiots.

Garry

Not only did Ford deny any fault Garry .... they blamed the owners saying their driving style sucked .... [bigrolf]

[ATH]

Younger bro had a RRS Autobio until recently and believe me he thrashes a motor. Hated the black smoke screen out the back when booting it but never had too much trouble with it at all and certainly never a crankshaft prob. With my more sedate driving and better servicing (he had dealer types do it) I don't think it's something to lay awake worrying about.
I'd be more worried if they closed the Guinness brewery down...... :)
AlanH.

[scarry]

Not only did Ford deny any fault Garry .... they blamed the owners saying their driving style sucked .... [bigrolf]

Didn't help them what they said,they had to give around 2500 owners new cars,and were fined tens of millions of $$$.

And that was only in Australia.

[Arapiles]

It’s been mentioned in another thread, but thought I start a new one to keep the information separate.

Here is the recall page from Land Rover Korea LAND ROVER RACALL ANNOUNCEMENT (https://www.landroverkorea.co.kr/jlr-recall.html)

Using Google translate helps, but it gets the dates of vehicles incorrect. It should read 2010 to 2016.

Google Translate (https://translate.google.com.au/translate'sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A//www.landroverkorea.co.kr)

It’s interesting that they are saying the initial inspection to determine if a replacement engine is required only takes 1 hour. Maybe they sit on the rev limiter for 60 minutes, if it doesn’t snap the crank it must be OK, if it does snap it needs the replacement [bigwhistle]


To provide some context, there's been an issue in South Korea with diesel BMWs catching on fire:


South Korea to ban some BMW vehicles over engine fires - BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45191874)


I think that I read in the Economist that the suspicions had spread to other imported brands, which is likely why JLR Korea initiated the recall. I note that, from the posts above, it appears to have been JLR Australia that brought up "fires" as an issue.

[Celtoid]

Didn't help them what they said,they had to give around 2500 owners new cars,and were fined tens of millions of $$$.

And that was only in Australia.

Oh I know …. it was s gobsmackingly pathetic deflection attempt which probably played against them in court...…"Nothing wrong with the box, you're changing gears the wrong way"

[Bigbjorn]

Not only did Ford deny any fault Garry .... they blamed the owners saying their driving style sucked .... [bigrolf]

Ford never recognised the head gasket and cylinder head corrosion problems with the Falcon 6 either.

[scarry]

Ford never recognised the head gasket and cylinder head corrosion problems with the Falcon 6 either.

Or the rust they came with as a no cost factory option[tonguewink]

[kelvo]

A recall has now been issued in China for the TDV6/SDV6 engines. Stating “some of the vehicles in this recall may have premature wear due to insufficient lubrication. In extreme cases, the crankshaft may break, causing the engine's power output to be interrupted, posing a safety hazard.”

http://www.dpac.gov.cn/qczh/gnzhqc/201812/t20181229_81234.html

and for the translated version Google Translate (https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c'depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com.au&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://www.dpac.gov.cn/qczh/gnzhqc/201812/t20181229_81234.html&xid=25657,15700021,15700124,15700126,15700186,1570 0191,15700201,15700237,15700242,15700248&usg=ALkJrhhwrEv2lcNcI7QdUOr8fZdWvZc6gA)

[ATH]

"premature wear due to insufficient lubrication. In extreme cases, the crankshaft may break, causing the engine's power output to be interrupted" . I really like that bit. :)
Hopefully as mine is a June 2016 build it won't happen to it....... in the meantime as I said previously I'd worry more about the possibility of brewers closing down.
HNY to everyone and stop worrying about maybe/might do things.[wink11]
AlanH.

[DiscoJeffster]

"premature wear due to insufficient lubrication. In extreme cases, the crankshaft may break, causing the engine's power output to be interrupted" . I really like that bit. :)
Hopefully as mine is a June 2016 build it won't happen to it....... in the meantime as I said previously I'd worry more about the possibility of brewers closing down.
HNY to everyone and stop worrying about maybe/might do things.[wink11]
AlanH.

Sorry Alan. A number of 2016 have also failed as well at D5 engines. No one is immune from this debacle.

[mrb505]

[QUOTE=kelvo;2869511]A recall has now been issued in China for the TDV6/SDV6 engines. Stating “[COLOR=#333333]some of the vehicles in this recall may have premature wear due to insufficient lubrication. In extreme cases, the crankshaft may break, causing the engine's power output to be interrupted, posing a safety hazard.”[/COLOR

That’s amazing they’re not really worried about poor old cobber with the broken crank that may buy another car one day but only really worried about the consequences of what may happen, when it occurs on some busy highway to third parties
Too many lawyers in the company I think

[shanegtr]

[QUOTE=kelvo;2869511]A recall has now been issued in China for the TDV6/SDV6 engines. Stating “[COLOR=#333333]some of the vehicles in this recall may have premature wear due to insufficient lubrication. In extreme cases, the crankshaft may break, causing the engine's power output to be interrupted, posing a safety hazard.”[/COLOR

That’s amazing they’re not really worried about poor old cobber with the broken crank that may buy another car one day but only really worried about the consequences of what may happen, when it occurs on some busy highway to third parties
Too many lawyers in the company I think
Ah, that's exactly what a "safety recall" is, for repairing faults that are a potential safety issue. Anything else is just a service campaign which may or may not get done depending on who you get to service your vehicle

[p38arover]

Deleted link to Cadogen's video owing to foul language (always in his videos). Not permitted on this forum.

[ATH]

Sometimes, just sometimes I could kick myself for buying Landies. But then I think of the probs. my boy had getting Tojo to fix the huge thirst for oil on his LC200 series and fix the transmission which wouldn't do anything until pressure had built up after sitting in his drive overnight.
Their excuse was "it was hi-tech and you must be prepared for these things......" But they did fix it after 3 years and it took them 3 months. Try telling that to the Exploroz lot. :)
Unbelievable but I'm reaching the stage where I think just about everything on modern cars is unbelievable...... including not having a ****ing dip stick. :) In fact I'm seriously thinking of not going off road any more.... I may stick to the flesh pots of Asia for my fun. :o

AlanH.

[jspyle]

There's a petition on the Facebook group "Discovery 3 & 4 owners" for this issue.
This is a closed group so you may need to request access to view the content.

Content not found (https://m.facebook.com/groups/207921512745848?view=permalink&id=978876002317058)

[Vern]

Sometimes, just sometimes I could kick myself for buying Landies. But then I think of the probs. my boy had getting Tojo to fix the huge thirst for oil on his LC200 series and fix the transmission which wouldn't do anything until pressure had built up after sitting in his drive overnight.
Their excuse was "it was hi-tech and you must be prepared for these things......" But they did fix it after 3 years and it took them 3 months. Try telling that to the Exploroz lot. :)
Unbelievable but I'm reaching the stage where I think just about everything on modern cars is unbelievable...... including not having a ****ing dip stick. :) In fact I'm seriously thinking of not going off road any more.... I may stick to the flesh pots of Asia for my fun. :o

AlanH.The 200 brigade live in denial, one of the worst large 4x4 on the market, but the sheep don't care, it's a Toyota, it's the best!

[kelvo]

There's a petition on the Facebook group "Discovery 3 & 4 owners" for this issue.
This is a closed group so you may need to request access to view the content.

Content not found (https://m.facebook.com/groups/207921512745848?view=permalink&id=978876002317058)

Link doesn’t work for me, was it this petition https://www.thepetitionsite.com/en-gb/535/903/886/land-rover-sdv6-amp-tdv6-crank-failure/ ?

[shanegtr]

Deleted link to Cadogen's video owing to foul language (always in his videos). Not permitted on this forum.
Apologies, forgot about that rule:bangin:

[discomatt69]

I heard today from a reliable source that LR Australia have now released a bulletin saying all pre 2013 3l should have the rear bearing replaced next time it comes in for service. Can anyone confirm or deny

[scarry]

No,but i can confirm it is a quick job,will be done while you have a quick cuppa in the waiting room, at the dealer[bighmmm][bigwhistle]

[Victim]

Did LR change anything in "post 2013" 3lt engines to eliminate the risk of this problem with later vehicles?

[rar110]

Did LR change anything in "post 2013" 3lt engines to eliminate the risk of this problem with later vehicles?

I don’t know if they did anything, but failures continued in the D4 & L405. I don’t recall reading about a failure in a L494.

[Graeme]

I recall that the fault had reportedly been fixed at around 2013 but later engines are still failing, perhaps not for the same reasons. Later D4, L494 and L405 TD/SDV6 engines still have far too many crankshaft failures, according to UK reports.

[DiscoJeffster]

Did LR change anything in "post 2013" 3lt engines to eliminate the risk of this problem with later vehicles?

Given reports of 2016 vehicle failures and even D5, if they did, it was not completely successful. As no one still has a clear view of what the actual cause is, hard to say.

[discomatt69]

When speaking to my mechanic about this issue he said don't be to concerned because the only failures he had seen was from people who did LR service intervals and or had ignored the low water warning or temp rise with the thought of " not far to go it will be OK"
His opinion was the longer oil change and overheating the oil caused 99% of the failures , change oil and don't ignore basic mechanical common sense...

[DiscoJeffster]

When speaking to my mechanic about this issue he said don't be to concerned because the only failures he had seen was from people who did LR service intervals and or had ignored the low water warning or temp rise with the thought of " not far to go it will be OK"
His opinion was the longer oil change and overheating the oil caused 99% of the failures , change oil and don't ignore basic mechanical common sense...

I’m sure he has good intentions but this has already been done to death. Cars that have been serviced at half intervals have failed. Cars with next to no km have failed, cars with high km have failed. Cars serviced to interval have failed. Cars not serviced to interval have also not failed. Cars following the LR interval have not failed. There is no rhyme or reason based on the information from the UK, SA, and Aus, or at the least, servicing has no bearing on it based on the failures listed on the many forums. Unless many of the people who’ve had failures are lying, they receive little to no warning other than a dashful of errors then bang.

[scarry]

Some cases of failures have been traced back to lack of servicing,as per threads on UK and SA sites.
In SA,more frequent servicing is needed due to fuel quality.

But many have failed with correct servicing.

[rar110]

One owner on here had a new 2015 D4 that had an engine failure within about a year at 26,000km. JLR replaced it under warranty.

[DiscoJeffster]

Some cases of failures have been traced back to lack of servicing,as per threads on UK and SA sites.
In SA,more frequent servicing is needed due to fuel quality.

But many have failed with correct servicing.

And have failed running arduous interval as well which was my point.

[jspyle]

Link doesn’t work for me, was it this petition https://www.thepetitionsite.com/en-gb/535/903/886/land-rover-sdv6-amp-tdv6-crank-failure/ ?

Yes, that is the one.

[rambada]

So has this fault appeared in other brands with the same motor? Eg Jaguar XF

[kelvo]

So has this fault appeared in other brands with the same motor? Eg Jaguar XF
Yes, and the same recall is happening in Korea JAGUAR RECALL ANNOUNCEMENT (https://www.jaguarkorea.co.kr/jaguar-recall-announcement.html)

”Jaguar Land Rover Korea has been working with the Ministry of Land, Transport and Maritime Affairs since November 2017 to investigate the possibility of a deficiency in a six-cylinder 3.0 diesel engine used in some models from the year 2010 to 2016.”

Translated version here Google Translate (https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c'depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com.au&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://www.jaguarkorea.co.kr/jaguar-recall-announcement.html&xid=25657,15700021,15700124,15700126,15700186,1570 0191,15700201,15700237,15700242,15700248&usg=ALkJrhiLXDC2kyFetwSNTaOm7wJRvmAmuw)

[ATH]

If it's good enough for JLR to do that in Korea that means it should be good enough for us.... doesn't it? Or are the ACCC (or whoever it is) not bothered as it doesn't affect them?
Probably won't do anything until someone who could affect their careers starts jumping up and down.
Only 48K on the clock of mine at the mo but as others have said they can have this problem at any stage so I'll be watching this thread with interest. BUT, I don't fancy my chances of anything being done after warranty runs out as I've never had it serviced by them.
At least that was the excuse they used when the aircon evap. leaked on the Defender.
Well done Kelvo.
AlanH.

[gavinwibrow]

If it's good enough for JLR to do that in Korea that means it should be good enough for us.... doesn't it? Or are the ACCC (or whoever it is) not bothered as it doesn't affect them?
Probably won't do anything until someone who could affect their careers starts jumping up and down.
Only 48K on the clock of mine at the mo but as others have said they can have this problem at any stage so I'll be watching this thread with interest. BUT, I don't fancy my chances of anything being done after warranty runs out as I've never had it serviced by them.
At least that was the excuse they used when the aircon evap. leaked on the Defender.
Well done Kelvo.
AlanH.



x2 for well done Kelvo.

I'm aware that many motors have now done 200plusK km without issue - does that suggest they are now unlikely to fail, and if they did I suspect at that mileage you would not have much comeback?

[DiscoJeffster]

x2 for well done Kelvo.

I'm aware that many motors have now done 200plusK km without issue - does that suggest they are now unlikely to fail, and if they did I suspect at that mileage you would not have much comeback?

A small number have failed at over 250,000km with snapped cranks. You’re right that at these mileages it’s getting to arguably serviceable life

[ozscott]

250,000 though is not great. A well designed, built and serviced diesel should do 400,000 to 500,000 but in truth these days many diesels run on a knife edge for so many reasons.

Cheers

[DiscoJeffster]

250,000 though is not great. A well designed, built and serviced diesel should do 400,000 to 500,000 but in truth these days many diesels run on a knife edge for so many reasons.

Cheers

I agree. I hope to get 350-400,000km out of mine before I'll be ready to switch to the new Defender.

[PerthDisco]

I’m on 199XXXkm nearing the big milestone in the 2.7D. Touch wood, she doesn’t burn a drop of oil and runs like new. Pulls strong as ever.

Still totally original except for belt change, oil pump housing and thermostat housing.

What to do with the EGR valves is my current thinking.

Oil changes at average of 9,350km.

Hoping for 400,000+++ as others have achieved

Fingers crossed [emoji1696]

[Kandy]

Must get out from under my rock, never heard of this "problem" with the engine. Warranty runs out in May and can extend another 2 or 3 years I think but conditions put me off, have to use their service dept. etc. I will ask my go to at MR Auto of their opinion and make a decision re extending warranty.
At the moment no issues at all but any odd vibrations, ding ding, pull over (probably have the van on) ring Landrover assist etc. Thanks for the info.

[Celtoid]

Yes, and the same recall is happening in Korea JAGUAR RECALL ANNOUNCEMENT (https://www.jaguarkorea.co.kr/jaguar-recall-announcement.html)

”Jaguar Land Rover Korea has been working with the Ministry of Land, Transport and Maritime Affairs since November 2017 to investigate the possibility of a deficiency in a six-cylinder 3.0 diesel engine used in some models from the year 2010 to 2016.”

Translated version here Google Translate (https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c'depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com.au&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://www.jaguarkorea.co.kr/jaguar-recall-announcement.html&xid=25657,15700021,15700124,15700126,15700186,1570 0191,15700201,15700237,15700242,15700248&usg=ALkJrhiLXDC2kyFetwSNTaOm7wJRvmAmuw)

Yeah I read the Korean one first …. a few months ago I think.

Common sense would dictate that a groundswell will make LR act …. but they are in the game to make money and just look at VW's disgusting behaviour. Class actions everywhere, yet they fight tooth and nail in every country looking for an out.

[Grentarc]

So has this fault appeared in other brands with the same motor? Eg Jaguar XFIt is a problem with the Peugot 2.7hdi which is essentially the same motor.

Also, there are NO LR service bulletins or any memos etc for 3.0 engines to have the rear bearing replaced.

[kelvo]

The top ten most expensive claims from a UK based vehicle warranty company Warranty Direct - What was the most expensive claim we... | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/148541065200165/posts/2000936093293977/)

Yet JLR (Excluding S Korea and China) still deny there is an issue with the TDV6/SDV6 engines :bat:

[PerthDisco]

Interesting news this week that JLR has laid off 4000 employees largely due to their range being predominantly diesel powered.

Diesel emissions are becoming increasingly restricted in Europe and a swing towards EVs in the long run. A strong petrol engine resurgence in meantime.

Bad news for us here.

Wouldn’t take much more than a major engine recall globally to tip all but the strongest companies over the edge.

[DiscoJeffster]

The top ten most expensive claims from a UK based vehicle warranty company Warranty Direct - What was the most expensive claim we... | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/148541065200165/posts/2000936093293977/)

Yet JLR (Excluding S Korea and China) still deny there is an issue with the TDV6/SDV6 engines :bat:

OFMG. JLR made up seven of their top ten claims? Engine. Engine. Engine. Engine. Engine. Engine. Engine. Engine. Threw in a Jag but that’s the same thing.

That’s not great marketing for JLR is it!

[Russrobe]

I think the result are a bit misleading though. They've split the vehicles into individual models, so you have Discovery 4, which has a total of 3 model lines, all with the same engine (can't buy a petrol in the UK, ever), up against other vehicles with multiple engine options and several badge types.

A bad result either way.

[101RRS]

so you have Discovery 4, which has a total of 3 model lines, all with the same engine (can't buy a petrol in the UK, ever),

The Disco 4 was sold with petrol engines in the UK - first the 5 litre V8 then the Supercharged V6.

Garry

[Russrobe]

The Disco 4 was sold with petrol engines in the UK - first the 5 litre V8 then the Supercharged V6.

Garry

Really? That's strange I just searched U.K Autotrader and there's 1300 Diesels and not a single Petrol Discovery 4 for sale in the country. Plus i knew someone was trying to import a petrol because he couldn't buy one in England last month.

Also states it in this article.

Representing a substantial update of the well proven Discovery 3, the Discovery 4 arrived in September 2009. It has a totally redesigned interior compared to its predecessor, as well as different external styling at the nose and tail.The top diesel engine was a 3.0-litre TDV6, while the less expensive 2.7-litre was carried over from the Discovery 3. The 2.7 was replaced by the more powerful 3.0-litre SDV6 in 2011, with lower exhaust emissions partly thanks to its new eight-speed automatic gearbox. A 3.0-litre V6 was offered, too, but UK buyers were denied a petrol V8 engine this time.

[kelvo]

The 3.0l petrol supercharged V6 was available in the UK as it was listed in the MY15 UK sales brochure reference LRML 4619/14.

[Grentarc]

Really? That's strange I just searched U.K Autotrader and there's 1300 Diesels and not a single Petrol Discovery 4 for sale in the country. Plus i knew someone was trying to import a petrol because he couldn't buy one in England last month.

Also states it in this article.

Representing a substantial update of the well proven Discovery 3, the Discovery 4 arrived in September 2009. It has a totally redesigned interior compared to its predecessor, as well as different external styling at the nose and tail.The top diesel engine was a 3.0-litre TDV6, while the less expensive 2.7-litre was carried over from the Discovery 3. The 2.7 was replaced by the more powerful 3.0-litre SDV6 in 2011, with lower exhaust emissions partly thanks to its new eight-speed automatic gearbox. A 3.0-litre V6 was offered, too, but UK buyers were denied a petrol V8 engine this time.Well that's sort of correct. The "3.0 TDV6" (180kw 600nm) was replaced by the SDV6 (188kw 600nm) and the 2.7 TDV6 was replaced by the 3.0 "TDV6" (155kw 500nm), the 5.0 V8 which was available with the original D4 was replaced by the 3.0 SCV6 (super charged petrol)

[Russrobe]

Maybe it was just a case of nobody bought it then. You'd think there would be at least 1 in 1300 for sale... Seems strange considering the extreme diesel tax they have to pay, surely someone would buy one.

[Russrobe]

Here's the thread of a guy considering importing a petrol v8. Also a few people confirming they were never sold in the UK....

Discovery 3 & 4 Owners Group public group | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/groups/207921512745848/search/?query=v8%20petrol&epa=SEARCH_BOX)

[rapserv]

"premature wear due to insufficient lubrication. In extreme cases, the crankshaft may break, causing the engine's power output to be interrupted" . I really like that bit. [emoji4]
Hopefully as mine is a June 2016 build it won't happen to it....... in the meantime as I said previously I'd worry more about the possibility of brewers closing down.
HNY to everyone and stop worrying about maybe/might do things.[wink11]
AlanH.

You obviously have deep pockets and no concerns about being faced with a massive repair bill if things go wrong!

[DiscoJeffster]

"premature wear due to insufficient lubrication. In extreme cases, the crankshaft may break, causing the engine's power output to be interrupted" . I really like that bit. [emoji4]
Hopefully as mine is a June 2016 build it won't happen to it....... in the meantime as I said previously I'd worry more about the possibility of brewers closing down.
HNY to everyone and stop worrying about maybe/might do things.[wink11]
AlanH.

You obviously have deep pockets and no concerns about being faced with a massive repair bill if things go wrong!

If you can’t sleep at night because of it, just sell. It’s quite simple. No amount of talking about it changes the odds or the outcome.

[ATH]

"causing the engine's power output to be interrupted" " Actually this is the bit I was saying I really liked. Of course the engines powers going to be interrupted if the crankshaft breaks! Reads like the type of bull we get from pollies and their bureaucrat employees. :)
I've certainly thought of flogging it but it runs superbly and does all I want so intend keeping for another year then buy....what?
AlanH.

[econti]

"causing the engine's power output to be interrupted" " Actually this is the bit I was saying I really liked. Of course the engines powers going to be interrupted if the crankshaft breaks! Reads like the type of bull we get from pollies and their bureaucrat employees. :)


A friend had one in his shop and the only difference was a slight vibration at idle. Drove fine. The break wasn't straight through the crank but on an angle, so the halves were holding against each other.

[rapserv]

If you can’t sleep at night because of it, just sell. It’s quite simple. No amount of talking about it changes the odds or the outcome.

I can sleep at night ok, however, I am concerned about a possible failure down the track .. probably when I'm in the middle of nowhere!!
I think you're wrong.
Talking about it is EXACTLY what we should be doing because LR can't use the excuse that they 'new nothing about it' if one suffers this failure and wants to pursue LR over it .. or .. 'we've had no complaints from anybody else' about such a problem!!
It ALWAYS pays to leave a paper trail, because, you can be absolutely certain, that they will try to escape ANY responsibility.

[DiscoJeffster]

They’re all out of warranty. They barely cared when they were in warranty and very few were looked after out of warranty. You can talk about it all you want but the simple fact is, they just don’t care, and will never care.

[ATH]

Probably the reason they can get away with not caring is they know that those employed supposedly to protect consumers across the land, are only interested in their own careers. Upsetting those with money who know those in charge and pollies wouldn't help that.
We had a problem with a new caravan years ago and the local consumer affairs "officers" response was "I hesitate to take action against Mr (name withheld) as he's an icon of the industry". My response was unprintable here but that attitude is the same across the country if what we can read on various websites is true.
Don't ever rely on backing from the seat polishers paid to protect your interests.
AlanH.

[Discodicky]

A friend had one in his shop and the only difference was a slight vibration at idle. Drove fine. The break wasn't straight through the crank but on an angle, so the halves were holding against each other.

Many years ago I bought a high mileage Datsun 200B for a son. It had a slight engine vibration. Ran really well and I drove it home about 60klms from seller. Turned out to have a broken crankshaft....

[rapserv]

They’re all out of warranty. They barely cared when they were in warranty and very few were looked after out of warranty. You can talk about it all you want but the simple fact is, they just don’t care, and will never care.

Yes .. I agree .. LR have never cared!!
The fact that the vehicles are out of warranty does not put an end to the issue. Decisions from consumer protection authorities often include out of warranty directives.
Warranties are a 'statutory requirement' they are NOT the 'be all end all'.

[BradC]

Warranties are a 'statutory requirement' they are NOT the 'be all end all'.

Which is nice when you have something behind the "statutory" bit, and while we have much better consumer protection laws than some other countries it has always been apparent that unless a load of people are likely to die the "authorities" here won't lift a finger to help if it means going up against a manufacturer. So yes, in theory Landrover should take some responsibility, but in practice they won't and there's nobody to make them.

[Grimace]

Just to add to this my uncles d4 has seized the crank at 220k...

Driving along fine, vehicle has never had an issue other than requiring both inlets replaced.
Timing belts were also done at last major service.

We don't know what cause of action to take with it, but thought it worth noting.

[Smocky]

Just adding mine to the list. 2016 Discovery SE. About 100,000 on the clock. Driving uphill on the hwy, started to lose power, pulled over quickly to the side of the road, engine shut down. Would turn over (lots of clunking) but not start. No error codes ! No oil leaks, oil level check still said OK. Mechanic has confirmed broken crankshaft.

[fourteen8]

I don’t have tdv6 or sdv6 disco yet but planning to get one and reading this makes me nervous. What’s the failure rate of this engine? I saw a lot of high km tdv6 and sdv6 on the market. Thanks

[DiscoJeffster]

I don’t have tdv6 or sdv6 disco yet but planning to get one and reading this makes me nervous. What’s the failure rate of this engine? I saw a lot of high km tdv6 and sdv6 on the market. Thanks

No one really knows but while there have been a lot, it would still have to be sub 1% given the number of vehicles sold

[ramblingboy42]

I'm with fourteen8 on this.

if you want a late d4, is there any other engine choice than the v6?

it interests me that F1 use a v6 and I don't think there would be any other v6 in the world works so hard for so much power @ so many revs at such a small engine capacity for so much reliability.

some here say a v6 has inherent reliability due to its crank design...I call bull**** on that....why would F1 use an inherently unreliable piece of engineering?

Land Rover/ Ford....it's really time to accept liability for a basically **** motor you use in the d4.

the td5 is producing some incredible life now , without any crankshaft failures that I know of...now there's a good design.

[Eric SDV6SE]

Did the SCV6 3.0 (supercharged v6 petrol) get carried over to the later models (2014 >) ? There's only a handful in Oz, I've only seen 1 for sale and that vehicle was in Qld...

[josh.huber]

Did the SCV6 3.0 (supercharged v6 petrol) get carried over to the later models (2014 >) ? There's only a handful in Oz, I've only seen 1 for sale and that vehicle was in Qld...

That's what I would buy. Yummy

[scarry]

No one really knows but while there have been a lot, it would still have to be sub 1% given the number of vehicles sold

Looking at 3.OL,ran for around 10 yrs in D4,D5,RRS.
Sales would have been around something like a generous, 25K, over that period,at a guess,at the most?

I doubt total engine failures were less than 250,over the 10yr period,and in the years once the engine was dropped.

From what i have seen,and the number that the two Indies i know are doing,that is way off the mark.Just the two of them would see more than 10 a year.

[kelvo]

Did the SCV6 3.0 (supercharged v6 petrol) get carried over to the later models (2014 >) ? There's only a handful in Oz, I've only seen 1 for sale and that vehicle was in Qld...
The SCV6 was only sold in Aus between MY14 and MY16.

[TroyDiscoveryPerth]

Adding another to this list. 2014, D4, TDV6, 160k km… quoted $35k to repair from Barbagello Cannington.. pity I only just found this thread ☹️

Car serviced continually as per spec. Looked after. Stopped dead at 30km/h…….

[Eric SDV6SE]

Adding another to this list. 2014, D4, TDV6, 160k km… quoted $35k to repair from Barbagello Cannington.. pity I only just found this thread ☹️

Car serviced continually as per spec. Looked after. Stopped dead at 30km/h…….

Sorry to hear that. In my opinion that's the key issue here: "serviced to spec". The long intervals between oil changes on a dirty diesel (egrs basically letting the engine breathe its own waste) as specified by JLR is a recipe for failure. Changing oil every 10000km max with a quality oil that meets the specs, and trying to limit short drives will see longevity in these engines. A good engine flush every oil change removes the sludge and clears out oil galleries

[scarry]

Sorry to hear that. In my opinion that's the key issue here: "serviced to spec". The long intervals between oil changes on a dirty diesel (egrs basically letting the engine breathe its own waste) as specified by JLR is a recipe for failure. Changing oil every 10000km max with a quality oil that meets the specs, and trying to limit short drives will see longevity in these engines. A good engine flush every oil change removes the sludge and clears out oil galleries

It seems unbelievable LR wouldn't be onto the long service intervals?

I am sure other manufacturers would be,many are still 10,000km,others are 15,000 for diesels.

[josh.huber]

The 3L failure doesn't appear to be oil related from what I've seen.. They are not spinning bearings or grabbing. Just snapping

[ATH]

I must admit to be being quite worried about the possibility of this happening and spoke to a bloke I know at the main dealers today about replacement engines etc. None available as we know and bits have to come from sources other than LR.
My car has had the oil changed every 10K and sometimes less since new in 2016 and very little has gone wrong (except that damn EPB) but I'm seriously thinking of moving on into the darkside...... actually I've ordered a Prado but anything can happen between ordering and 12 - 14 months to delivery.
New Defender too expensive at 130K and restricted space in the back for what we want.
We'll see what happens.
AlanH.

[RHS58]

I must admit to be being quite worried about the possibility of this happening and spoke to a bloke I know at the main dealers today about replacement engines etc. None available as we know and bits have to come from sources other than LR.
My car has had the oil changed every 10K and sometimes less since new in 2016 and very little has gone wrong (except that damn EPB) but I'm seriously thinking of moving on into the darkside...... actually I've ordered a Prado but anything can happen between ordering and 12 - 14 months to delivery.
New Defender too expensive at 130K and restricted space in the back for what we want.
We'll see what happens.
AlanH.

Same sentiments, mines 2013, and just replaced intake manifolds after one split. Mechanic mentioned the crankshaft issues and I’ve been nervous ever since.
Ordered a new Ranger, with delivery end August 2023, but able to opt out if I change my mind. The V6 has same origins as the LR one.
Plenty of time to consider all options.

[ATH]

I checked out the new Everest Sport which has that V6 Lion motor as well. Didn't want a ute as their high sides are a put off for me. Anyway, back area in the Everest is too restricted again so Prado it was despite the horrid rear barn door but we had one years ago and managed OK with that.
Time will tell what happens.
Good luck on getting your Ranger.
AlanH.

[Eric SDV6SE]

The 3L failure doesn't appear to be oil related from what I've seen.. They are not spinning bearings or grabbing. Just snapping

If its not oil starvation or related, then it must be a fault in the forging or a design issue. I agree that step down to that flange and the web thickness between #1-2 and #3-#4 does look very skinny. Then they drill an oil gallery straight throught the web part, weakening even further. Perfect stress raiser if the oil gallery has sharp corners or the material has a defect in it already.

[Eric SDV6SE]

.

[BradC]

a design issue.

Plenty of new engine designs over the years have had crank related failures in the field until a modification was made. In this case I suspect LR just doesn't give a crap, so they never bothered to make a modification.
They all break in the same spot, so it's possibly a weakness in the crank, or as mentioned previously a harmonic issue causing the crank to flex excessively at that spot (whip).

Volvo modified their bulletproof B23 engine into the B230 back in the 80's. It used a new cast crank with much smaller journals to reduce rotating friction and save fuel. They were just to one side of the snapping curve at their rated output. Any increase in power output and they started to break, so they had to modify the bearing configuration to reduce harmonics *and* move to a forged crank for higher power outputs. Remove the harmonic balancer at your peril.

I get the feeling Landrover just shrugged their shoulders and kept going.

These new high output small displacement motors are pretty bloody highly stressed compared to years gone by and appear to be engineered on the ragged edge of reliability to reduce weight and friction.

[Graeme]

..Remove the harmonic balancer at your peril...
As the rubber in harmonic balancers deteriotates with use, I wonder if replacing the harmonic balancer every 100K kms or so might prevent some of the failures. It may not be beneficial at all on some crankshaft designs but on susceptible ones it might be good insurance, although I expect they're rather costly. They're usually fitted to remove vibration caused by the ancilliaries but some engines need them for crankshaft longevity.
I had one of my tractor's re-rubberred because it was moving a lot but the rebuilt one was soon jumping around almost as much, so probably a waste of money in that instance.
My 4.4 TDV8's balancer moves substantially at idle but I'm not concerned with crankshaft longevity due to its very robust design.

[Melbourne Park]

Plenty of new engine designs over the years have had crank related failures in the field until a modification was made. In this case I suspect LR just doesn't give a crap, so they never bothered to make a modification.
They all break in the same spot, so it's possibly a weakness in the crank, or as mentioned previously a harmonic issue causing the crank to flex excessively at that spot (whip).



Just to be clear, LR have never made the engine. It's made by Ford. And designed by Ford and Peugeot, evidently.

If you buy an LR now with a 3 litre diesel, its now made by Land Rover, and its a straight six. I am not sure though if it's bulletproof.

I don't know how different the Lion 3 litre motor is in the Fords now being sold here in Australia. They all have similar performance to the SD version of the motor.

I'd be interested to know what is different now, and also, whether parts between the engines might be available, or even if short motors might be available.

[Melbourne Park]

I must admit to be being quite worried about the possibility of this happening and spoke to a bloke I know at the main dealers today about replacement engines etc. None available as we know and bits have to come from sources other than LR.
My car has had the oil changed every 10K and sometimes less since new in 2016 and very little has gone wrong (except that damn EPB) but I'm seriously thinking of moving on into the darkside...... actually I've ordered a Prado but anything can happen between ordering and 12 - 14 months to delivery.
New Defender too expensive at 130K and restricted space in the back for what we want.
We'll see what happens.
AlanH.

I bought a 90 series Prado in 1997, its still going strong. The 3.4 litre petrol cast iron V6. I'm giving it to my son who takes it camping.

I bought a Prado 150 series in 2013 - the top model. A Kakadu. It was horrible. I sold it and bought the Disco, which is still going well.

I'd certainly consider a Prado with the diesel V6 though and the new gearbox ... but the 4 is horrible IMO. The Toyotas are committee cars ... the Disco feels like a designer has lived in the car, and worked it all out. The ergonomics are great, across the board in the Disco. It's fun to drive, and remarkable across many roles.

[Discodicky]

I bought a 90 series Prado in 1997, its still going strong. The 3.4 litre petrol cast iron V6. I'm giving it to my son who takes it camping.

I bought a Prado 150 series in 2013 - the top model. A Kakadu. It was horrible. I sold it and bought the Disco, which is still going well.

I'd certainly consider a Prado with the diesel V6 though and the new gearbox ... but the 4 is horrible IMO. The Toyotas are committee cars ... the Disco feels like a designer has lived in the car, and worked it all out. The ergonomics are great, across the board in the Disco. It's fun to drive, and remarkable across many roles.

Well said!
My eldest son has a new (18 mnth old) Hilux 4WD and that auto trans is terrible. Can't decide which gear it wants to be in and the convertor seems to be always slipping. That trans is also in the Prado and Isuzu. We are indeed spoilt with the 6 & 8 speed ZF.

[BMKal]

I bought a 90 series Prado in 1997, its still going strong. The 3.4 litre petrol cast iron V6. I'm giving it to my son who takes it camping.

I bought a Prado 150 series in 2013 - the top model. A Kakadu. It was horrible. I sold it and bought the Disco, which is still going well.

I'd certainly consider a Prado with the diesel V6 though and the new gearbox ... but the 4 is horrible IMO. The Toyotas are committee cars ... the Disco feels like a designer has lived in the car, and worked it all out. The ergonomics are great, across the board in the Disco. It's fun to drive, and remarkable across many roles.

Over the years, I've had seven Prado's - all work cars - including a diesel 90 series, 4 petrol and one diesel 120 series and a diesel 150 series. At the same time, my own personal vehicles included a Ford F100 Ranger with a Chev 6.2 litre V8 diesel in it, a Disco 1 V8, a Disco 2 td5 and the Disco 4 2.7 litre diesel that I still have today.

Of the Prado's - the only one with any serious offroad capability was the 90 series - they went downhill after that to the point that the 120 and 150 series could not get near a Discovery (any model) off road. I did like the 120 series with the 4 litre V6 Petrol engine (mine were all manuals with either 5 or 6 speeds) as long as I had a company fuel card. On a long run from Kambalda / Kalgoorlie down to Perth which I did regularly, they were a very comfortable car and very quick for a large 4WD. They were thirsty though - used about the same fuel as my Discovery 1 V8 (and were not as quick as the Disco). The 4 cylinder diesel 120 series was gutless compared to the petrol V6 in the same model and was easily outdone by the td5 Discovery 2 I had at the same time - but it had better performance than the 150 that replaced it when I changed jobs. The 150 series Prado I had was a poverty pack 4 cylinder diesel with only about a 75 litre fuel tank - it was gutless and by far the worst of the Prado's I had.

In my last job, I had a mid-spec Land Cruiser 200 series V8 diesel for a while. I prefer the D4 to one of these any day of the week. Over priced and over rated in my opinion. Now retired, I don't have company vehicles any more - just the Disco 4 (which was actually bought as a work vehicle when I was working for a mining contractor in Perth - I had the option of a "company" Prado which remained the property of the company and I would have lost when I finished working for them, or I supply my own vehicle and the company paid me a vehicle "allowance" plus there are considerable tax benefits available this way). Basically, the car was paid for in 2 years and was mine to keep when the company got out of the mining business and we were all made redundant.

If I was to consider buying another vehicle now, I'm not quite sure what it would be. Definitely not another Land Rover. I don't like the new Discovery at all and while I do like the new Defender, I could never justify the cost. My current thinking is to look for one of the last of the current model V6 diesel VW Amarok utes. My son has the 4 cylinder version and has never had a problem with it - I'd like the extra bit of power offered by the V6 for pulling a caravan - but I'm not really interested in the about to be released Ranger / Amarok - the VW Diesel engine has a better name at least as of now. A ute would come in handy now that I am not working. If I was to consider a wagon, I'd likely be looking at the V8 petrol Nissan Patrol. A friend owns a caravan sales business and he has bought two Patrols now for towing vans to expo's / camping shows etc. He has previously used land Cruisers and even a Range Rover, and says that the Patrol runs rings around just about everything else on the road for towing - except for the big American trucks. I have driven one and quite liked it - more comfortable than the land Cruiser 200 in my opinion and with plenty more grunt (sounds nicer too) and MUCH cheaper than a Toyota or Land Rover. OK - it's a petrol - the price of diesel these days actually makes the Nissan look an even better option.

[goldey]

When we were navigating the 'options' with engine replacement when our SDV6 went 'pop', the only alternative I was willing to digest (aside from the path we took of replacing the SDV6 engine with another lower mileage unit out of a write off) was to chase a Y62 Patrol. More expensive than what we chose definitely, but if the current engine goes pffftt like the previous, we may still end up going that way.

The Disco 4 will always be my most comfortable and smile inducing 4wd after previous Prado's, Landcruiser 80, Patrol GU and a Disco 1 (tdi slow as buggery but the most capable offroad of all of them). However the fuel prices these days take most of the fuel economy of diesels versus petrols out of the discussion.

[Eric SDV6SE]

Over the years, I've had seven Prado's - all work cars - including a diesel 90 series, 4 petrol and one diesel 120 series and a diesel 150 series. At the same time, my own personal vehicles included a Ford F100 Ranger with a Chev 6.2 litre V8 diesel in it, a Disco 1 V8, a Disco 2 td5 and the Disco 4 2.7 litre diesel that I still have today.

Of the Prado's - the only one with any serious offroad capability was the 90 series - they went downhill after that to the point that the 120 and 150 series could not get near a Discovery (any model) off road. I did like the 120 series with the 4 litre V6 Petrol engine (mine were all manuals with either 5 or 6 speeds) as long as I had a company fuel card. On a long run from Kambalda / Kalgoorlie down to Perth which I did regularly, they were a very comfortable car and very quick for a large 4WD. They were thirsty though - used about the same fuel as my Discovery 1 V8 (and were not as quick as the Disco). The 4 cylinder diesel 120 series was gutless compared to the petrol V6 in the same model and was easily outdone by the td5 Discovery 2 I had at the same time - but it had better performance than the 150 that replaced it when I changed jobs. The 150 series Prado I had was a poverty pack 4 cylinder diesel with only about a 75 litre fuel tank - it was gutless and by far the worst of the Prado's I had.

In my last job, I had a mid-spec Land Cruiser 200 series V8 diesel for a while. I prefer the D4 to one of these any day of the week. Over priced and over rated in my opinion. Now retired, I don't have company vehicles any more - just the Disco 4 (which was actually bought as a work vehicle when I was working for a mining contractor in Perth - I had the option of a "company" Prado which remained the property of the company and I would have lost when I finished working for them, or I supply my own vehicle and the company paid me a vehicle "allowance" plus there are considerable tax benefits available this way). Basically, the car was paid for in 2 years and was mine to keep when the company got out of the mining business and we were all made redundant.

If I was to consider buying another vehicle now, I'm not quite sure what it would be. Definitely not another Land Rover. I don't like the new Discovery at all and while I do like the new Defender, I could never justify the cost. My current thinking is to look for one of the last of the current model V6 diesel VW Amarok utes. My son has the 4 cylinder version and has never had a problem with it - I'd like the extra bit of power offered by the V6 for pulling a caravan - but I'm not really interested in the about to be released Ranger / Amarok - the VW Diesel engine has a better name at least as of now. A ute would come in handy now that I am not working. If I was to consider a wagon, I'd likely be looking at the V8 petrol Nissan Patrol. A friend owns a caravan sales business and he has bought two Patrols now for towing vans to expo's / camping shows etc. He has previously used land Cruisers and even a Range Rover, and says that the Patrol runs rings around just about everything else on the road for towing - except for the big American trucks. I have driven one and quite liked it - more comfortable than the land Cruiser 200 in my opinion and with plenty more grunt (sounds nicer too) and MUCH cheaper than a Toyota or Land Rover. OK - it's a petrol - the price of diesel these days actually makes the Nissan look an even better option.

Agree, had a close look at the latest Patrol, but at close to 95k AUD with nothing really special to offer re options, and the second most boring interior (200-300 series LC tops the list) I could not imagine living with that car for the long term. The Patrol did sit a very close second on my short list for a long time. The L663 won in the end, provably more of a heart-over-head decision, but hey, you only live once.

[Melbourne Park]

I think I'll keep the Land Rover Disco, and if its crank fails, I hope that a replacement is not going to cost an absolute fortune. So are I've done 110,000 with no issues. I realised that maintenance costs will go up and up. But they'll be cheaper than a new vehicle. And while diesel is costly, at least its available. But the fuel consumption of the Nissan is huge when towing. My best in the Disco towing my 2.5 tonne Matrix, was 10 litres per 100km. But that was from Fry's Flat, which is high up, and I emptied the water tanks on my Disco, plus a strong northerly wind was behind me, and also, my tyres were more road tyres than off road. Now with higher profile wider tyres that are 80% off road, I typically get around an actual 15 litres per 100 KM towing a full van. I can get less but I have to think about it. I'd be in the 20s towing with the Nissan. And the price difference in fuel is minor, because the Nissan requires a minimum 95 RON, and one has to avoid the alcohol enhance RON fuels too, they are not good for engines IMO. But yes - buying a used Nisan V8 Patrol, would probably provide a very good vehicle at a great price. And that matters too - but new?


Over the years, I've had seven Prado's - all work cars - including a diesel 90 series, 4 petrol and one diesel 120 series and a diesel 150 series. At the same time, my own personal vehicles included a Ford F100 Ranger with a Chev 6.2 litre V8 diesel in it, a Disco 1 V8, a Disco 2 td5 and the Disco 4 2.7 litre diesel that I still have today.

Of the Prado's - the only one with any serious offroad capability was the 90 series - they went downhill after that to the point that the 120 and 150 series could not get near a Discovery (any model) off road. I did like the 120 series with the 4 litre V6 Petrol engine (mine were all manuals with either 5 or 6 speeds) as long as I had a company fuel card. On a long run from Kambalda / Kalgoorlie down to Perth which I did regularly, they were a very comfortable car and very quick for a large 4WD. They were thirsty though - used about the same fuel as my Discovery 1 V8 (and were not as quick as the Disco). The 4 cylinder diesel 120 series was gutless compared to the petrol V6 in the same model and was easily outdone by the td5 Discovery 2 I had at the same time - but it had better performance than the 150 that replaced it when I changed jobs. The 150 series Prado I had was a poverty pack 4 cylinder diesel with only about a 75 litre fuel tank - it was gutless and by far the worst of the Prado's I had.

In my last job, I had a mid-spec Land Cruiser 200 series V8 diesel for a while. I prefer the D4 to one of these any day of the week. Over priced and over rated in my opinion. Now retired, I don't have company vehicles any more - just the Disco 4 (which was actually bought as a work vehicle when I was working for a mining contractor in Perth - I had the option of a "company" Prado which remained the property of the company and I would have lost when I finished working for them, or I supply my own vehicle and the company paid me a vehicle "allowance" plus there are considerable tax benefits available this way). Basically, the car was paid for in 2 years and was mine to keep when the company got out of the mining business and we were all made redundant.

If I was to consider buying another vehicle now, I'm not quite sure what it would be. Definitely not another Land Rover. I don't like the new Discovery at all and while I do like the new Defender, I could never justify the cost. My current thinking is to look for one of the last of the current model V6 diesel VW Amarok utes. My son has the 4 cylinder version and has never had a problem with it - I'd like the extra bit of power offered by the V6 for pulling a caravan - but I'm not really interested in the about to be released Ranger / Amarok - the VW Diesel engine has a better name at least as of now. A ute would come in handy now that I am not working. If I was to consider a wagon, I'd likely be looking at the V8 petrol Nissan Patrol. A friend owns a caravan sales business and he has bought two Patrols now for towing vans to expo's / camping shows etc. He has previously used land Cruisers and even a Range Rover, and says that the Patrol runs rings around just about everything else on the road for towing - except for the big American trucks. I have driven one and quite liked it - more comfortable than the land Cruiser 200 in my opinion and with plenty more grunt (sounds nicer too) and MUCH cheaper than a Toyota or Land Rover. OK - it's a petrol - the price of diesel these days actually makes the Nissan look an even better option.

[Tins]

But yes - buying a used Nisan V8 Patrol, would probably provide a very good vehicle at a great price. And that matters too - but new?

DIL got a demo last month, less than 4,000 k, sports exhaust and wood panel delete, agreed buyback ( dunno how much ) and fixed price servicing, for $110k. Is that good? Way out of my league, but it's a whole lot of car. We'll never find out what it's like off road, son has a GU for that, but it tows as if there's nothing behind it, and day to day fuel costs are acceptable, unless he drives it! However, it's HUGE, and I'm not sure about the packaging. Not much beats a D4 for packaging.

[Eric SDV6SE]

DIL got a demo last month, less than 4,000 k, sports exhaust and wood panel delete, agreed buyback ( dunno how much ) and fixed price servicing, for $110k. Is that good? Way out of my league, but it's a whole lot of car. We'll never find out what it's like off road, son has a GU for that, but it tows as if there's nothing behind it, and day to day fuel costs are acceptable, unless he drives it! However, it's HUGE, and I'm not sure about the packaging. Not much beats a D4 for packaging.

Base price for a new Defender 110 or a new Discovery is less than that 110k. Its the options, lct and dealer cost that add up. I looked at the Nissan V8, nice engine, but thirsty, interior and exterior oh so bland.I spent my hard earned on a new 110 which is packaged much better, a lot more car for you dollar imho, even with 2 less cylinders.

[Melbourne Park]

Just to be clear, LR have never made the engine. It's made by Ford. And designed by Ford and Peugeot, evidently.

If you buy an LR now with a 3 litre diesel, its now made by Land Rover, and its a straight six. I am not sure though if it's bulletproof.

I don't know how different the Lion 3 litre motor is in the Fords now being sold here in Australia. They all have similar performance to the SD version of the motor.

I'd be interested to know what is different now, and also, whether parts between the engines might be available, or even if short motors might be available.


Base price for a new Defender 110 or a new Discovery is less than that 110k. Its the options, lct and dealer cost that add up. I looked at the Nissan V8, nice engine, but thirsty, interior and exterior oh so bland.I spent my hard earned on a new 110 which is packaged much better, a lot more car for you dollar imho, even with 2 less cylinders.

And if a person adds up the fuel savings, and then takes away the extra maintenance costs, the Defender would come out pretty well I reckon. My issue though is I tow, and I reckon a chassis means no loads on the cabin, and hence, no rattles or loose doors over 15 years of running. For example my Prado 1997, has no rattles.

Also the Defender is a vehicle that seems to be enjoyable to drive in the city. While we can drive big vehicles in the city, they do resemble trucks. The Defender (I haven't driven one though) appears to be comparatively, a "fun" SUV to drive.

I've thought of my wife's next vehicle being a Lexus NX hybrid. She has an RX 350 circa 2009, she's had it since 2011. Its been a good car, but the mapping has failed, and she scratched both sides. The re-spay means I feel like getting rid of it. But she wants something high, accelerative, and easy to park. But I reckon a Defender would fit the bill although it would cost a fair bit more. But if my Disco fails, we'd have a spare tow vehicle!

[Melbourne Park]

This Link on the Lion engine failures is a good one.

He has some auto manufacturer knowledge, and he is a Disco enthusiast.

In summary, he says the failure issue is:
- related to poor quality control of the crank manufacture (described as "Monday morning crankshaft")
- there are not enough bearings
- the middle bearings are more narrow than the outer bearings
- there is less oil supply to the middle bearings
- the high oil filter means on start up, there is no oil pressure for some time, which is bad
- the reason for the design compromise was that the engine was designed to be East / West configuration, hence they shortened the crankshaft
- the worst thing one can do to the crankshaft is demands lots of torque at low revs, as the oil supply is more limited the lower the revs
- he is a fan of frequent oil changes

I love these people by the way, so don't criticise the people (feel free to point out tech issues though!!)

Worst Diesel Engine on the Planet ? Ford Lion V6 - Land Rover TDV6 SDV6 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3moekbW6z8)

[Melbourne Park]

Cures:
No cure about a poor crankshaft ("Monday morning")

Bearing failure causing crank failure:
Australians use better oil - but change it more often
Don't use real engine torque until 2,000 RPM
Gentle use until warm

By the way, the poster Christian is an electrician by trade (but his career was in automotive manufacturing hardware)


This Link on the Lion engine failures is a good one.

He has some auto manufacturer knowledge, and he is a Disco enthusiast.

In summary, he says the failure issue is:
- related to poor quality control of the crank manufacture (described as "Monday morning crankshaft")
- there are not enough bearings
- the middle bearings are more narrow than the outer bearings
- there is less oil supply to the middle bearings
- the high oil filter means on start up, there is no oil pressure for some time, which is bad
- the reason for the design compromise was that the engine was designed to be East / West configuration, hence they shortened the crankshaft
- the worst thing one can do to the crankshaft is demands lots of torque at low revs, as the oil supply is more limited the lower the revs
- he is a fan of frequent oil changes

I love these people by the way, so don't criticise the people (feel free to point out tech issues though!!)

Worst Diesel Engine on the Planet ? Ford Lion V6 - Land Rover TDV6 SDV6 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3moekbW6z8)

[DazzaTD5]

So I dont read any new info or see anything new or clever in any youtuber that somehow believe they have found the holy grail of what goes wrong.

*Talk to any decent trade professional about the worst engine design and they will tell you its a V6, the best being a straight 6 cylinder.
*Throughout engine history there are plenty of bad V6 engines, the U.S was a great example sticking V6 engines in anything they made.
*The worst diesel engine on the planet? what a joke, again talk with any decent trade professional that deals with VW 2.0 diesel straight 4 cylinders, their failure rate would be far worse than the 3.0L used in the D4.
*When I used to work on Jeeps (another **** brand I stopped working on) there was a range of models that used the VW 2.0 diesel, all with failures. The reason most ended up at the wreckers was the repairs would cost more than the whole vehicle was worth.
*What's the German reason for their **** engines, beer and bratwurst day?
*Again talk with a trade professional, you know that actually repairs vehicles for a living and they will tell you, do 10K oil changes.

*As I have mentioned numerous times, the Land Rover issue is solely build quality (or rather the lack of it).
*The replacement Ingenium engine like the rest of Land Rover is also prone to failures (yet its not a V6 or built by Ford) again lack of build quality.
*Yet other Ford engines, the mk7 Transit engines used in the last Defender TDCi (2007-2016, puma) are a pretty respectably reliable engine. (gasp! but surely some were made just after a football match or on a Monday)
*The Defender (classic, to the end of 2016 ) is the Land Rover poster child of build quality, it was throughout its history a hodge bodge of a vehicle with terrible build quality. But like me and many owners of the old Defender we sort of live with it and well you have to have a hobby of sorts. (and a Defender running or not is still cool).

*But for a vehicle design like a Discovery 4 or any Land Rover model newer the same poor build quality is unforgiveable.
*lets be clear its a Ford engine? no, lets be clear Land Rover arent the victims, the owners with failed engines are the victims.
*The future will look bright though, wait until the flood of chinese cars are a few more years old and you will see the worst engines on the planet.

Land Rover sending owners closer to the poverty line for over 70 years...

[scarry]

So I dont read any new info or see anything new or clever in any youtuber that somehow believe they have found the holy grail of what goes wrong.

*Talk to any decent trade professional about the worst engine design and they will tell you its a V6, the best being a straight 6 cylinder.
*Throughout engine history there are plenty of bad V6 engines, the U.S was a great example sticking V6 engines in anything they made.

It will be interesting to see how the F33A-FTV goes in the latest LC.

Many are used as tugs and don’t get the easiest of lives.

[p38arover]

See YouTube Ford Everest wins world first "NOT A CAR" of the year award | Auto Expert John Cadogan.

Apparently it uses the same engine and Cadogen points out its reliability at 5:20.

[DazzaTD5]

See YouTube Ford Everest wins world first "NOT A CAR" of the year award | Auto Expert John Cadogan.

Apparently it uses the same engine and Cadogen points out its reliability at 5:20.

yes its the same engine family being a Lion, same as in the 2.7 and the 3.0 are the same but with enough little differences that may well make a 3.0 out of a ranger or everest not fit as a replacement engine in a D4. Would be good if it was block for block the same it would give owners a good supply of new replacement engines.

[veebs]

Is there a definitive answer yet, on the viability of ranger engines in the D4?

[Melbourne Park]

My service guy (RovaRange) - by the way they require two months ahead for a booking ... reckons Ford did change the oil pump and the flow rate via extra oil flow for the centre of the crank on the Lion V6, which is where the crank maybe can run dry and its bearing area is marginal there. So the Ford Ranger does have the revised oil flow. The change in the engine was made mid 2018 evidently. He also said that the V8 diesel fits well in the Disco. Getting such an engine I guess is not so easy ... And I didn't ask about whether its the 2.7 version v8 ie the 3.6 litre one - I guess it would be, as the Range Rover sport chassis vehicle had them as an option.

Incidentally the 90 series GXL 3400 did not pass its roadworthy. Besides brakes, it had rust in its windscreen column, and needed a new windscreen too. So I got the roof and bonnet resprayed and the rust removed and fixed up in the windscreen column, which all was a job. Also, its head gasket was leaking oil, and replacing that gasket is a time consuming job. Plus its front suspension arms although replaced, were done poorly (by my son's service guys who changed to Indian fellows and are hopeless), so I had to put in a new front suspension control arm kit. With the gasket being replaced on the head, I also had the timing belt replaced, along with the water pump (which was leaking). The timing belt would have been due in 15k time anyway. The radiator was fine, but some age to it, so I also had a high quality one put in to replace the original one. All up including the paint etc., it cost $10k. Which included all the diff oils being replaced, the tranny fluid and engine oil.

I also had a Prado 150 Kakadu - and it was horrible, plus its tow rating was just 2.5 tonne. I had the Kakadu for almost one year, and sold it (for a slight profit). I bought it well though ... hence I got the Disco. Which so far, has been terrific.

I do worry though about going around Australia with it, towing 2.4 tonne. Its all setup to do so though, with ARB bull bar, LLams, driving lights, Compomotive wheels with 65 Profile tyres, VHF and aerials, roof rack and I was planning on some rear locker arrangement from Drifta (but their wait was over one year!). Sadly the best choice is still a 200 series ( or a 70 series which is not comfortable but would probably not break down) for ability to handle a break down in outback Western Australia. But what a price one pays for a second hand vehicle ... meanwhile I have heard many 3.3 litre Toyota diesel V6 in the 300 Landcruisers have been bricked due to dust blocking the air filter ... total engine replacement job. It seems Toyota's engineers forgot about that "slight" issue. I doubt that would have happened if Toyota still made the Camry here and hence had more credible Aussie engineers here for testing.

[Graeme]

The V8 diesels are 3.6 and 4.4.

[discomatt69]

My service guy (RovaRange) - by the way they require two months ahead for a booking ... reckons Ford did change the oil pump and the flow rate via extra oil flow for the centre of the crank on the Lion V6, which is where the crank maybe can run dry and its bearing area is marginal there. So the Ford Ranger does have the revised oil flow. The change in the engine was made mid 2018 evidently. He also said that the V8 diesel fits well in the Disco. Getting such an engine I guess is not so easy ... And I didn't ask about whether its the 2.7 version v8 ie the 3.6 litre one - I guess it would be, as the Range Rover sport chassis vehicle had them as an option.

Incidentally the 90 series GXL 3400 did not pass its roadworthy. Besides brakes, it had rust in its windscreen column, and needed a new windscreen too. So I got the roof and bonnet resprayed and the rust removed and fixed up in the windscreen column, which all was a job. Also, its head gasket was leaking oil, and replacing that gasket is a time consuming job. Plus its front suspension arms although replaced, were done poorly (by my son's service guys who changed to Indian fellows and are hopeless), so I had to put in a new front suspension control arm kit. With the gasket being replaced on the head, I also had the timing belt replaced, along with the water pump (which was leaking). The timing belt would have been due in 15k time anyway. The radiator was fine, but some age to it, so I also had a high quality one put in to replace the original one. All up including the paint etc., it cost $10k. Which included all the diff oils being replaced, the tranny fluid and engine oil.

I also had a Prado 150 Kakadu - and it was horrible, plus its tow rating was just 2.5 tonne. I had the Kakadu for almost one year, and sold it (for a slight profit). I bought it well though ... hence I got the Disco. Which so far, has been terrific.

I do worry though about going around Australia with it, towing 2.4 tonne. Its all setup to do so though, with ARB bull bar, LLams, driving lights, Compomotive wheels with 65 Profile tyres, VHF and aerials, roof rack and I was planning on some rear locker arrangement from Drifta (but their wait was over one year!). Sadly the best choice is still a 200 series ( or a 70 series which is not comfortable but would probably not break down) for ability to handle a break down in outback Western Australia. But what a price one pays for a second hand vehicle ... meanwhile I have heard many 3.3 litre Toyota diesel V6 in the 300 Landcruisers have been bricked due to dust blocking the air filter ... total engine replacement job. It seems Toyota's engineers forgot about that "slight" issue. I doubt that would have happened if Toyota still made the Camry here and hence had more credible Aussie engineers here for testing.

any links to 300 engine failure? I have been keeping a look out for any poor reliability reports and haven't seen any, very undecided on what car next, sadly Ineos Grenadier is off the list for now as they have huge issues ranging from electrical, power steering and brakes

[Tins]

any links to 300 engine failure? I have been keeping a look out for any poor reliability reports and haven't seen any, very undecided on what car next, sadly Ineos Grenadier is off the list for now as they have huge issues ranging from electrical, power steering and brakes

A quick goggle came up with many, many hits. Oil consumption being the most common.

[scarry]

any links to 300 engine failure? I have been keeping a look out for any poor reliability reports and haven't seen any, very undecided on what car next, sadly Ineos Grenadier is off the list for now as they have huge issues ranging from electrical, power steering and brakes

Been on two LC300 forums since the vehicle turned up.Forums are usually the place where any faults and problems with vehicles are reported.
Oil usage is a non issue,a few used some in the run in period,most used none.
Never heard of an air filter blocking causing an issue,sounds more like lack of maintenance.

The main issue seems to be the 7th injector which is for the DPF, blocking up,which is easily replaced with a newer design.
The manufacturer is onto the problem which is good to see.
A few software up grades for the engine and turbo set up,which sometimes causes issues for those that tow the heavy blocks of flats.

Overall,for a brand new engine, gearbox,etc,and for the number around very few issues.

Although time will tell if that continues over the years.

Accessory fitters cause quite a few problems as well,mistakes,bad workmanship,the usual.

We looked at one but didnt really like it,for us a step backwards in some areas from the 200.
They certainly have some punch,and go well,and are quite expensive,but what isn't these days?

[loanrangie]

Dusting is the LC200 issue not the 300.

[Graeme]

Was the dusting acknowledged by the manufacturer?

[shanegtr]

Was the dusting acknowledged by the manufacturer?
Don't be stupid[bigrolf]

[scarry]

Was the dusting acknowledged by the manufacturer?

The later OEM air filter had a thicker sealing rubber,and is a different colour.Whether that is an acknowledgement,who knows.The colour only indicates it is the newer filter.

A lot of it can be put down to using after market filters,and lack of servicing.

In fact on a Berrimer Diesel vid,their comment was they had never seen a dusted 1-VD.Not that i watch many of their vids.

But it definitely seems to be an issue for some,generally ruins the left hand turbo as well,in the 200.

[Graeme]

My daughter and husband have a 200. The air-box gets special attention to ensure that it seals as they do lots of outback touring.

[scarry]

My daughter and husband have a 200. The air-box gets special attention to ensure that it seals as they do lots of outback touring.

The newish Donaldson airbox set up is a great bit of kit for those that do a lot of outback touring.

I should put one on ours but just a bit worried about warranty.I give ours a lot of attention as well,as we also do a lot of driving in very dusty conditions.So far no dust at all getting through.

I found the D2 TD5 airbox let a lot more dirt and sand in than the 200 OEM airbox.
The D4 actually has a great set up,probably the same as other LRs of same era.

[loanrangie]

Was the dusting acknowledged by the manufacturer?

Actually some have had their engine replaced under warranty but not all, like anything its a fight for acknowledgement that its a known issue.

[Graeme]

My SIL was at some stage considering an after-market air-box which IIRC was around $1000.

[loanrangie]

My SIL was at some stage considering an after-market air-box which IIRC was around $1000.A lot cheaper than a new engine.

[haydent]

No one really knows but while there have been a lot, it would still have to be sub 1% given the number of vehicles sold


Looking at 3.OL,ran for around 10 yrs in D4,D5,RRS.
Sales would have been around something like a generous, 25K, over that period,at a guess,at the most?

I doubt total engine failures were less than 250,over the 10yr period,and in the years once the engine was dropped.

From what i have seen,and the number that the two Indies i know are doing,that is way off the mark.Just the two of them would see more than 10 a year.

theres a user poll on another lr forum that has it at 10% for both 2.7 and 3.0 . even the d5 sdv6 are snapping still

[haydent]

If its not oil starvation or related, then it must be a fault in the forging or a design issue. I agree that step down to that flange and the web thickness between #1-2 and #3-#4 does look very skinny. Then they drill an oil gallery straight throught the web part, weakening even further. Perfect stress raiser if the oil gallery has sharp corners or the material has a defect in it already.

5 main bearings instead of 7 ?

[haydent]

.

[loanrangie]

There is no 7 main bearing block, can't physically get 7 mains on a V6, 1 at each end and 1 between each pair of big end journals= 4.

[Tins]

IIRC, the TDV6 only has four mains.

191340

Not my pic. Source: Billet crank (https://www.hurricanerods.com/products/Land-Rover-Discovery-3-2.7L-90mm-stroke-TDV6-billet-4340-crankshaft.html)

[haydent]

thanks for clearing that up , id just assumed they could have used more if they were prepared to make the engine longer

[Tins]

thanks for clearing that up , id just assumed they could have used more if they were prepared to make the engine longer

Not a whole lot of room in what is effectively two 3 cyl engines. If you look at the "thickness" of the webs it's easy to see that all you would need is a tiny flaw for the crank to fail, given the power these things can make. I reckon that billet crank is interesting.

And they did make the engine longer, in the RRS. They gave it 8 cylinders. Still believe that would be an avenue to explore if the car is a keeper. A V8 D4 would be almost perfect. But I'm ignorant of what would be involved, or availability of engines.

[haydent]

i have the L320 tdv8 now and its amazing, but need the higher weight cap of discovery, ive dreamed of it too Disco 4 Turbo Diesel V8 (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l319-discovery-3-and-4-a/289299-disco-4-turbo-diesel-v8.html)

[loanrangie]

IIRC, the TDV6 only has four mains.

191340

Not my pic. Source: Billet crank (https://www.hurricanerods.com/products/Land-Rover-Discovery-3-2.7L-90mm-stroke-TDV6-billet-4340-crankshaft.html)

Correct John, pre coffee counting !

[loanrangie]

thanks for clearing that up , id just assumed they could have used more if they were prepared to make the engine longer

No but they could have made the crank stronger by having more metal between the journals and fillets which meant they would need to stagger the cylinders more and increase the length a bit.

[Tins]

Correct John, pre coffee counting !

I was on my second[bigwhistle]

[haydent]

lol, for me it was midnight after not being able to sleep thinking about cars after having 1 coffee in the morning, and too full dinner belly with a beer on top...

[haydent]

No but they could have made the crank stronger by having more metal between the journals and fillets which meant they would need to stagger the cylinders more and increase the length a bit.

ah ok, so yeah still same number of mains, just thicker webs.

[Tins]

ah ok, so yeah still same number of mains, just thicker webs.

Even better QC on the casting would have helped. They don't all fail.

[Graeme]

The desire to fit a V6 engine in the east-west space of a 4-cylinder is the reason why the engine is as short as it is, which lead to a marginal crankshaft design. The engine design engineers must have had their fingers crossed that it would be adequate.

[DiscoDB]

No but they could have made the crank stronger by having more metal between the journals and fillets which meant they would need to stagger the cylinders more and increase the length a bit.

It was very a much a compromised design. Had to be short enough to be mounted transversely in smaller cars than the Discovery. So I blame the French! [emoji12]

Had Ford designed it purely for longitudinal use in LR and Ford vehicles then yes it could have been made longer, a bit heavier, and with thicker webs. An extra 10mm in length and probably just 5kg more in weight could have made it a bullet proof engine.

What I find impressive is 20 years on and Ford are still using this engine series. Hopefully they got it right with the Ranger now that the engine is being built in South Africa (no excuse to not correct any of the flaws in the design).

[Melbourne Park]

No but they could have made the crank stronger by having more metal between the journals and fillets which meant they would need to stagger the cylinders more and increase the length a bit.

A link on that change would mean I might believe it!!

This link sort of says that the change in engines was a forged crankshaft. Ford 3.0L Power Stroke Lion Engine link: Just a moment... (https://fordauthority.com/fmc/ford-motor-company-engines/ford-power-stroke-engine-family/ford-3-0l-power-stroke-engine/)

Some references have been to a billet (with third party crankshafts) but a billet is a lump of steel, and does not refer to a crankshaft manufacturing process. However a forged crankshaft is not a cast one (which then has other processes applied to it after its pouring ie casting. A forged crank is a piece of metal that is squeezed into shape, which aids uniformity and aligns the metal's grain. A Samurai sword was forged, by hammering the heated metal, and many folds made, and the fire's charcoal when the sword was put into the fire, added carbon, hence those swords were a good metal product. For a crank a piece of metal is heated up and then pressured - via hydraulics typically - into shape. If an engine is designed for a forged crankshaft then tighter tolerances would allow a lighter crankshaft. Tighter tolerances and more compact crankshafts can be made with forging due to forging being stronger. Hardness is another issue though. But forging a crank for the Lion would not IMO make it lighter for that reason, the physical dimensions would be the same unless a total redesign was made ie a new engine.

For myself, I am not taking the D4 to Western Australia. The main issue with my D4 was being able to repair an issue in outback W.A. where I want to tour towing my 2013 2.45 tonne off road trailer for 4 to 6 months. There is no service between Port Headland and Darwin, and parts are an issue there, plus mechanic's ignorance and annoyance I presume. I chipped the Disco's windscreen in northern QLD and couldn't get a windscreen, and the only windscreen stockist up there had a huge range of windscreens, but no Disco ones. I glued it up just fine though.

Out of annoyance at Ford I would not buy an Everest - and I did road test a QLD friend who hired a brand new Everest Platinum for Melbourne, which felt smaller in the front than the D4 somehow, I suspect it was due to a lower roof line, and maybe it is narrower on the inside, but outside it looks quite big. Its floor slopes upwards in the rear too, which is weird but tolerable. It reminded me of the very first Mazda CX-5's interior, the Everest seemed like a prototype not a finished vehicle. It was very quiet though and the seats while feeling a bit small were comfortable. But IMO people adjust to seats but IMO being able to move around on a seat over long distances lowers fatigue. Tight buckets don't achieve that IMO.

I'm buying my best friend's 200 series. I had tested many 300s and he got the bug and has ordered a 300 GR-Sport. He lives in Melbourne but has 5 acres at Flinders - the Mornington Peninsula - where his is retiring one day too, but he works and lives a lot down there. He has lots of cars though but the 200 was comfortable, but his wife now prefers a high performance Mini Wagon. Much of the 200's miles were simply driving a 70-85 km one way trip to there and back on Melbourne roads and freeways. He's towed his boat on occasion too. I will do the W.A. trip and then consider selling the 200 and keeping the D4. But my son wants to buy the D4, so if that happens, I guess I'll have to keep the 200. The 200 will need suspension work, probably a cyclonic snorkel. I hate snorkels because any dusty road I've seen has as much dust at 2 metres as at 1 metre. But I do believe in cyclonic snorkels. The air cleaners on 200's are a bad joke and actually a disgrace IMO. The filters themselves don't stop all the dust, and the 200's air filter housings flex and leak air. And even sealed ones under tests show dust gets through the filters. Many 200s have wrecked their motors due to "dusting", something I have never heard of in a D4.

But at least Toyota will sell a short block. The Toyota V8 is still sold in Africa, as even the straight 6 1HD-FT(&E) 4.2 litre diesel (famous for reliability) still is too. Those engines are still being made. The 4.2 6 diesel 1HD-FTE do break down, a friend tows with one and his required a few thousand for its head repairs. They also lack power and torque but 430Nm at 1200 RPM from 4.2 litres sounds like a recipe for long life IMO. I think Toyota keeps selling its diesel engines in South America and South Africa because that way they get a return, and also make big profits when people want a replacement motor, because the manufacturing has been kept going, the new vehicles sales of old engines means a replacement engine for an old Toyota would make Toyota lots of profit, increase customer loyalty and brand reputation. Ford are doing the same with the still making the V6, but incomprehensibly don't feel any obligation to supply new motors for old Land Rovers, when I bet it would be easy to do so.

[Graeme]

The LR WSM states that the TDV6 cranks are forged, although that could be a misunderstanding by whoever wrote that part of the manual.
It appears to me that the crankshafts only break because a big-end has seized from lack of lubrication due to a badly failed main bearing. Hence IMO start with preventing the demise of the main bearings, not go looking for stronger crankshafts. Another SDV8 with a seized big-end shows-up on the UK RR forum every couple of weeks but never with a broken crankshaft, noting that they have a main bearing each side of a big-end journal and don't have thin webs.

[loanrangie]

The LR WSM states that the TDV6 cranks are forged, although that could be a misunderstanding by whoever wrote that part of the manual.
It appears to me that the crankshafts only break because a big-end has seized from lack of lubrication due to a badly failed main bearing. Hence IMO start with preventing the demise of the main bearings, not go looking for stronger crankshafts. Another SDV8 with a seized big-end shows-up on the UK RR forum every couple of weeks but never with a broken crankshaft, noting that they have a main bearing each side of a big-end journal and don't have thin webs.

By design the V8 configuration allows for a much stronger crank .

[Eric SDV6SE]

The Achilles heel of the SDV6 is the single oil gallery to main bearing between banks 2-5 and 3-6. All the others have 2 oil ports. Add to this that the oil gallery is too small, the thin webs and the significant step in the crank at that point to the corresponding counterweight, and its a perfect storm. Long oil service intervals, high soot levels block up the oulnport, bearing is starved of oil, seizes and grabs crank. High inertia forvthe adjoining conrods and pistons, plus the weak point at the crank and its the crank that let's go.

Use an engine flush at every second oil change to get the soot out, change oil every 10000km or less, and let the engine warm up before taking off seems to help. Use a low ash full synthetic oil that is to spec and genuine filters

[gavinwibrow]

The Achilles heel of the SDV6 is the single oil gallery to main bearing between banks 2-5 and 3-6. All the others have 2 oil ports. Add to this that the oil gallery is too small, the thin webs and the significant step in the crank at that point to the corresponding counterweight, and its a perfect storm. Long oil service intervals, high soot levels block up the oulnport, bearing is starved of oil, seizes and grabs crank. High inertia forvthe adjoining conrods and pistons, plus the weak point at the crank and its the crank that let's go.

Use an engine flush at every second oil change to get the soot out, change oil every 10000km or less, and let the engine warm up before taking off seems to help. Use a low ash full synthetic oil that is to spec and genuine filters


Eric, just to clarify "Achilles heel of the SDV6" please. So does this single oil gallery NOT include the TDV6?

[Eric SDV6SE]

My understanding is the SDV6 is a bored out and tuned version of the TDv6 with the same internals, so by that logic, yes, same crank.

However, less torque and power, no sequential turboes etc. to give a decent whack of power.

[gavinwibrow]

My understanding is the SDV6 is a bored out and tuned version of the TDv6 with the same internals, so by that logic, yes, same crank.

However, less torque and power, no sequential turboes etc. to give a decent whack of power.



Cheers Eric, but now you have me completely confused (not hard to do) with "bored out"? Is that in reference to the crankshaft, rather than cylinder bore, or?

With Cambo's magic, my TDV6 has about 700 Nm (similar and a bit less than the Rangie Sport apparently), so maybe I have the best of both worlds?

[Eric SDV6SE]

Larger cylinder bores etc to increase the engines swept capacity to 3000cc up from 2700cc. Same crank.

My SDV6 also had a tune, towed regularly and it was not driven gently. I had no crank issues in the 120000km of ownership.

Maybe it is just a lottery...

[sharmy]

Just a silly thought. If the 3l tdv6 does not have the same problems as the sdv6, it surely can't be because the tdv6 has a dpf it seems it must be the lower power rating, so if you tuned the sdv6 down to the lower rating and not have a dpf it should be better than both.[bigwhistle]

[discomatt69]

Just a silly thought. If the 3l tdv6 does not have the same problems as the sdv6, it surely can't be because the tdv6 has a dpf it seems it must be the lower power rating, so if you tuned the sdv6 down to the lower rating and not have a dpf it should be better than both.[bigwhistle]
Except that the TDV6 does have the same issue and does randomly break crank shafts, it’s a design issue for both not a tune issue

[BradC]

My understanding is the SDV6 is a bored out and tuned version of the TDv6

I think the confusion here is Gav has the 3.0L TDV6 (which from my understanding is the same as an SDV6 with a different tune) however you are referring to the 2.7L TDV6.

The 2.7 isn't immune. Our MY08 (build late 07) snapped a crank at about 120,000km.

[sharmy]

Except that the TDV6 does have the same issue and does randomly break crank shafts, it’s a design issue for both not a tune issue
I did word it a bit wrong but I have read somewhere on this site that it is not as predominant in the tdv6 as the sdv6.