EV's ... Alternative Energies ??

[goingbush]

Might be time to move Electric Vehicles into their own Grouping.

I think EV's are no longer Alternative but are on the verge of becoming a mainstream choice .

for those that are not convinced EV's are actually better for the Planet this video is worth watching .and is slanted in favour of Internal Combustion but EV still comes out ahead.


https://youtu.be/rdqtFXyDLIo

[Pickles2]

Yes, I believe EV's are getting closer & closer to mainstream.
JLR have been on to it for a while, and I was reading a report from AMG (Mercedes' performance arm) who make some of the highest performance vehicles in the world, and they are heavily involved with well advanced plans for electric vehicles/alternatives right through their model range. Tesla will not have this segment all on their own, that's for sure.
Pickles.

[manic]

Slanted, wonky, many assumptions, vague data.

It might be fair to say, in some cases, that purchasing a second hand fuel efficient burner and driving it 80,000 is as enviromentally damaging as buying a new ev for the same distance. But it depends!

There are many factors to consider and many are hard to quantify.

What is for certain is that a rapid uptake in evs will reduce noise and air pollution on the roads.

For Australia to show an emissions reduction over the next 15 years would be suprising. The goverment would need to support ev conversions, send a bunch of tax revenue back for home solar installations, and drop all support for coal in favour of renewables - tomorrow! As this does not seem likely I think Australia is still at least 25 years away from smoke free motoring/electricity, and thats being SUPER optimistic.

[goingbush]

Slanted, wonky, many assumptions, vague data.

It might be fair to say, in some cases, that purchasing a second hand fuel efficient burner and driving it 80,000 is as enviromentally damaging as buying a new ev for the same distance. But it depends!

There are many factors to consider and many are hard to quantify.

What is for certain is that a rapid uptake in evs will reduce noise and air pollution on the roads.

For Australia to show an emissions reduction over the next 15 years would be suprising. The goverment would need to support ev conversions, send a bunch of tax revenue back for home solar installations, and drop all support for coal in favour of renewables - tomorrow! As this does not seem likely I think Australia is still at least 25 years away from smoke free motoring/electricity, and thats being SUPER optimistic.

Your not factoring in that Internal Combustion cars probably wont be available in 10-15 years , let alone 25 years. Whose going to make them specially for Australia ???

[manic]

Your not factoring in that Internal Combustion cars probably wont be available in 10-15 years , let alone 25 years. Whose going to make them specially for Australia ???

Even with an abundance of suitable EVs at affordable prices, many millions around the world will not be able to buy them because of local factors that prevent convenient charging. And these are not just third world infrastructure problems. Certainly there will still be demand for ICE in 15 years.

Having just returned from a trip to London, I was reminded that there are millions of homes in the UK that have no garage and no driveway, where cars are parked out front on the street. The councils will not allow extension leads to run from houses across pedestrian path ways. My dad wants a little EV for his retirement run about but cant buy one because he is not allowed to charge it on his street. He may not get to see the infrastructure changes he needs, the council have nothing in the pipeline for his street. London proposed phone repeaters through the underground train/tube system in ~2000. 18 years later and the underground is still a blackout zone. I'm just saying, the progress of change can be frustratingly slow.

The EV will be king of the driveway, so much better than ICE - BUT for the quick transition we are hoping for we need to improve energy storage way beyond lithium. The current scale of lithium battery production is already causing significant environmental issues, and it will get much worse if this resource hungry old battery tech is packed into every new vehicle on the road. Lithium batteries are great for your remote control car, but it starts to get ridiculous when you scale it up.

If we are going to allow the auto industry to do a mass roll out with huge lithium battery packs, we should give proper scrutiny to the environmental costs, and set acceptable standards for recycling.

In Australia I would like to see mandatory recycling of lithium batteries to an acceptable standard, with huge fines for non-compliance. Currently we recycle 2% of lithium batteries in this country. Those that are recycled only salvage a small percentage of content, and much of the waste is burnt off. Most of what is not sent to recycle ends up in landfill, leaking into the ground. Surely we need to get this all in order.

The spiralling environmental cost of our lithium battery addiction | WIRED UK (https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact)

[bsperka]

In the boot "Heat" the author contends that it takes between 15 to 25 years for an infrastructure change over to become dominant. Iirc the change over to electric cars is used as an example of this.

[goingbush]

In the boot "Heat" the author contends that it takes between 15 to 25 years for an infrastructure change over to become dominant. Iirc the change over to electric cars is used as an example of this.

The changover from Horse & buggy to "horseless carriage" was only about 5-10 years .

[goingbush]

Agree on Lithium & Battery recycling in general . IMO Lithium is not the EV battery of the future . Environmentally friendly (& abundant) Sodium is the EV Chemistry of the future (combined with Super Capacitors for ultra fast charge)


https://youtu.be/FFrVkZzRokU

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I'm convinced EV's are going to be the next big thing. They aren't going to replace all cars and certainly not initially. It will start with city run abouts and spread from there.

What will be the driver? I've worked out that at this juncture 1kw is very roughly equivalent to a litre of fuel. Most people with EV's at this point are mooching free power - but no one should be paying much more than 20c a litre (whoops KW) for their energy. That's pretty alluring.

I reckon once people work that out we're going to see a shift happening faster than people think..

[goingbush]

I'm convinced EV's are going to be the next big thing. They aren't going to replace all cars and certainly not initially. It will start with city run abouts and spread from there.

What will be the driver? I've worked out that at this juncture 1kw is very roughly equivalent to a litre of fuel. Most people with EV's at this point are mooching free power - but no one should be paying much more than 20c a litre (whoops KW) for their energy. That's pretty alluring.

I reckon once people work that out we're going to see a shift happening faster than people think..

Yes, And then theres free charging from your rooftop solar.

Heres the info sheet I display on my E-Landy when I take it to shows. On petrol it cost about $27.00 per 100km
I have not paid a cent for electricity in 5000km but If I didn't have Solar (Lets face it you would be nuts not to if you have an EV) , If I was paying AGL retail rates for my power 100km would cost me about $7.50

Its just a guesstimation based on the claimed KWH size of my battery back, I've just ordered a KWH meter which I'll install on my car & be able to quote exact figures soon.





https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/44183193_1908966829185098_2363231168221937664_o.jp g?_nc_cat=100&oh=b9f7eaf4fafef9673bcf7dfdc82debe3&oe=5C45FB64

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Yes, And then theres free charging from your rooftop solar.


That E landy is awesome! I'm actually not sure that off road is the most compelling EV application. Particularly in Aus.

None the less - the more EV's that are out there the more the technology advances.

There is one problem with charging from roof top solar - and that the car has to be home when the sun is out. I think that will be a challenge for a lot of people.

[PhilipA]

A BMW executive at the recent Paris show stated that EVs would never be as cost competitive as smaller cars as the cost of the battery pack alone would remain at Euros 15K to 20K, and that an entire smaller car can be produced for less than that.
Seeing that the vast majority of cars sold in the World are smaller cars that cost less than AUD 20K retail which includes about 10K of profit and taxes then it is hard to see how consumers will be willing to pay an extra say 20K for an EV.
The new 2nd generation 2019 Nissan Leaf is rumoured to retail at $50K AFAIK.

Most EVs sold so far have been hideously expensive like the Tesla where wealthy virtue signalers and early adopters with lots of money have bought them. Lots of luck with that.

Regards Philip A

[goingbush]

A BMW executive at the recent Paris show stated that EVs would never be as cost competitive as smaller cars as the cost of the battery pack alone would remain at Euros 15K to 20K, and that an entire smaller car can be produced for less than that.
Seeing that the vast majority of cars sold in the World are smaller cars that cost less than AUD 20K retail which includes about 10K of profit and taxes then it is hard to see how consumers will be willing to pay an extra say 20K for an EV.
The new 2nd generation 2019 Nissan Leaf is rumoured to retail at $50K AFAIK.

Most EVs sold so far have been hideously expensive like the Tesla where wealthy virtue signalers and early adopters with lots of money have bought them. Lots of luck with that.

Regards Philip A

Yes & that is using expensive Lithium. Why cheap Sodium batteries are being developed, Cheap to produce , easy to recycle, better energy density & faster charging.

[bsperka]

The changover from Horse & buggy to "horseless carriage" was only about 5-10 years .You can use the same argument for EVs. The changeover has happened because some are around. Monbiot is talking about the tipping point or widespread adoption of technology.

[AK83]

I don' think cars are the problem.
The reality is they are all a luxury. for moving people, there are many other ways to move about. The issue there tho is the ability for the authorities to have the backbone to just do it, rather than to spend millions of dollars of feasibility studies on it.

The real problem is moving goods, freight, logistics .. etc.
How do you design an EV vehicle to move tons of freight?

I think ICE resources will be around for a lot longer than most doomsayers predict, unless tech in heavy vehicle sector changes quickly too.

Don't get me wrong tho, I love the idea of EVs, but their impracticality of long distance transit is still the major issue.

[austastar]

Hi,
Price is relative.
When coming up to driving age, (1962 - 63) a mini or VW Beetle cost about a year's wage for a an average Jo, at about a thousand quid.
Holden, Fords weren't cheap, and Landrover or a 3 speed Toyota Land cruiser were just beyond dreaming about.
Today, cheaper models sell new at less than half a year's wage, and have more than vinyl seats and radio if you were lucky.
One of VW's points was that it had a heater built in already.

Most were, as Ralph Nader put it, "unsafe at any speed".

Cheers

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I don' think cars are the problem.
The reality is they are all a luxury. for moving people, there are many other ways to move about. The issue there tho is the ability for the authorities to have the backbone to just do it, rather than to spend millions of dollars of feasibility studies on it.

The real problem is moving goods, freight, logistics .. etc.
How do you design an EV vehicle to move tons of freight?

I think ICE resources will be around for a lot longer than most doomsayers predict, unless tech in heavy vehicle sector changes quickly too.

Don't get me wrong tho, I love the idea of EVs, but their impracticality of long distance transit is still the major issue.
I really think you're going to be surprised. People aren't usually entirely logical when it comes to their choice of vehicles.

It's my opinion that within the next 4/5 years there will be a number of solid EV choices that will be less than 50k. Yes, that's 50k for a car that's doesn't have any more size or equipment than a 30k hatchback now.

Not withstanding that - people make choices. Those choices are about where they live, how they get to work, where they send the kids to school etc etc. For many people it's their choice to spend a lot of time in their cars. That's their choice and I think a lot of those people are very conscious of fuel prices. Those are the people that do 20k or more in their car now. They might spend 3-5k a year now on fuel. How much in a few years with the way it's going?

For those people the allure of not having to fork out $100 a week, and not have that mandatory visit to the servo I think will be very very strong. No more servo visits - just park the car over the charge matt, or plug it in a couple of times a week and charge of cheap off peak electricity.

It won't be for everyone, but for many it's going to be a really big thing. Maybe there will be one run-about EV per family. IMHO there will be enough of them to drive prices and adoption.

[jillr]

I don' think cars are the problem.
The reality is they are all a luxury. for moving people, there are many other ways to move about. The issue there tho is the ability for the authorities to have the backbone to just do it, rather than to spend millions of dollars of feasibility studies on it.

The real problem is moving goods, freight, logistics .. etc.
How do you design an EV vehicle to move tons of freight?

I think ICE resources will be around for a lot longer than most doomsayers predict, unless tech in heavy vehicle sector changes quickly too.

Don't get me wrong tho, I love the idea of EVs, but their impracticality of long distance transit is still the major issue.

Rail has always been excellent for moving large amounts of same old, same old. The last city km has always been truck (last country 100km = truck). If the business is same old, then I envisage electric will be the go. There will always be specialty jobs where ICE does the job better, but whether it runs on petrol, diesel, chip fry oil or ethanol remains to be seen. The only difference would be whether the ICE is carbon-neutral or not.
Off roading and long outback touring though is an area where I would imagine a plethora of transport options will be seen for a long time.
Occasionally you see active "museum exhibits" but they are the exception.

[goingbush]

Check out these 3 busses for sale , 450-500km range . note a similar bus did over 1000km

Early days, wont be long before long distance Electric trucks.


http://www.aeva.asn.au/sites/default/files/public/u28/AVASS%20bus%20offer.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3oK-j9zgEaxJSHIjMk-lwUUfFkEGmJ_9EaxnOIroNXKyL0-aF6xaOLLK0

[Don 130]

Yes, And then theres free charging from your rooftop solar.

Heres the info sheet I display on my E-Landy when I take it to shows. On petrol it cost about $27.00 per 100km
I have not paid a cent for electricity in 5000km but If I didn't have Solar (Lets face it you would be nuts not to if you have an EV) , If I was paying AGL retail rates for my power 100km would cost me about $7.50

Its just a guesstimation based on the claimed KWH size of my battery back, I've just ordered a KWH meter which I'll install on my car & be able to quote exact figures soon.





https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/44183193_1908966829185098_2363231168221937664_o.jp g?_nc_cat=100&oh=b9f7eaf4fafef9673bcf7dfdc82debe3&oe=5C45FB64

And you're not yet paying any sort of tax for road maintenance etc are you? I'm sure it must come as the numbers rise.
Don.

[bee utey]

And you're not yet paying any sort of tax for road maintenance etc are you? I'm sure it must come as the numbers rise.
Don.

Not too many years ago all LPG for vehicles was excise free too, and not a razoo from my thirsty V8's fuel bills went towards road maintenance. Now electric vehicles will get the same treatment until it suits the powers-that-be to do something about it. Mind you, some of the registration fees, GST and income tax I paid went towards road maintenance. Roads are funded from general revenue, not some specific tax component.

[goingbush]

New Zealand has a good system ... RUC "Road User Charge " For Deisels over 3500kg (Only petrol has excise paid at the pump) EV's are exempt until 2020. Deiseld under 3500kg are exempt. Trucks have a GPS eTag thing And a fair tax is paid on a usage basis , EV's will have same. Thats more than fair & I'm happy to pay if they introduce that here. Though most of my KM are on unimproved dirt roads.

[Russrobe]

I like the look of Mitsubishi's PHEV Outlander, and if i had a spare $35k laying around i'd upgrade our Forester to one. 100km per charge on electric motor means if you chuck it on charge each night, you'll never use fuel going to work and back. Plus you get an extra 500km of range on the 2l petrol engine. Win, win. Going by this cheapest car to run list by RAC, it finished on top as most affordable electric, and it's a practical vehicle, unlike the micro Toyota's.

I found the results interesting, worth a quick read over at least.

Summary:
Revealed: Australia's cheapest cars to run | Drive.com.au (https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/revealed-australia-s-cheapest-cars-to-run-119121)

Full list:
RACV advice for buying a car - new or second-hand (https://www.racv.com.au/on-the-road/buying-a-car.html#operatingcosts)

[DiscoMick]

I like the look of Mitsubishi's PHEV Outlander, and if i had a spare $35k laying around i'd upgrade our Forester to one. 100km per charge on electric motor means if you chuck it on charge each night, you'll never use fuel going to work and back. Plus a you an extra 500km range on the 2l petrol engine. Win, win. Going by this cheapest car to run list by RAC, it finished on top as most affordable electric, and it's a practical vehicle unlike the micro Toyota's.

I found the results interesting, worth a quick read over the list at least.

Summary:
Revealed: Australia's cheapest cars to run | Drive.com.au (https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/revealed-australia-s-cheapest-cars-to-run-119121)

Full list:
RACV advice for buying a car - new or second-hand (https://www.racv.com.au/on-the-road/buying-a-car.html#operatingcosts)

Someone at work has one of those and seems happy with it.

[manic]

I like the look of Mitsubishi's PHEV Outlander, and if i had a spare $35k laying around i'd upgrade our Forester to one. 100km per charge on electric motor means if you chuck it on charge each night, you'll never use fuel going to work and back. Plus a you an extra 500km range on the 2l petrol engine. Win, win. Going by this cheapest car to run list by RAC, it finished on top as most affordable electric, and it's a practical vehicle unlike the micro Toyota's.

I found the results interesting, worth a quick read over the list at least.

Summary:
Revealed: Australia's cheapest cars to run | Drive.com.au (https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/revealed-australia-s-cheapest-cars-to-run-119121)

Full list:
RACV advice for buying a car - new or second-hand (https://www.racv.com.au/on-the-road/buying-a-car.html#operatingcosts)

Hybrids will be great for the city, 50-100km of e-power would cover most shopping/work commutes.

This is what I would love to do to an old D1, 110 or 130, shove a motor on the transfer case and a line of batteries on the boot floor. For the city shunt, it would only need a range of ~50km and top speed of ~80kph. Fire up the TDI for runs out of the city.

[goingbush]

Hybrids will be great for the city, 50-100km of e-power would cover most shopping/work commutes.

This is what I would love to do to an old D1, 110 or 130, shove a motor on the transfer case and a line of batteries on the boot floor. For the city shunt, it would only need a range of ~50km and top speed of ~80kph. Fire up the TDI for runs out of the city.


I'm seriously considering same with Iveco, A decent Electric motor could be attached to the TC PTO .

Heres is LandRovers early version of same idea .... The Dunsfold Collection :: The Dunsfold Collection (http://www.dunsfoldcollection.co.uk/collection/military/ser-iii-military-electric-drive-prototype)

[grey_ghost]

Hi GoingBush,

Did you spot this...

https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/australias-first-350kw-electric-charging-stations-confirmed-115248/

Cheers,
GG.

[goingbush]

Hi GoingBush,

Did you spot this...

https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/australias-first-350kw-electric-charging-stations-confirmed-115248/

Cheers,
GG.

Hadn't seen that, Thanks , Its all happening.

[weeds]

Hi GoingBush,

Did you spot this...

https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/australias-first-350kw-electric-charging-stations-confirmed-115248/

Cheers,
GG.

Wonder how much per charge?

[grey_ghost]

Yeah - I only skim read the article but I didn’t see a price..

[350RRC]

Yes, And then theres free charging from your rooftop solar.

Heres the info sheet I display on my E-Landy when I take it to shows. On petrol it cost about $27.00 per 100km
I have not paid a cent for electricity in 5000km but If I didn't have Solar (Lets face it you would be nuts not to if you have an EV) , If I was paying AGL retail rates for my power 100km would cost me about $7.50

Its just a guesstimation based on the claimed KWH size of my battery back, I've just ordered a KWH meter which I'll install on my car & be able to quote exact figures soon.





https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/44183193_1908966829185098_2363231168221937664_o.jp g?_nc_cat=100&oh=b9f7eaf4fafef9673bcf7dfdc82debe3&oe=5C45FB64


This type of build is really interesting and you've done a great job.

Thanks for sharing all the details also!

Just curious where the weight saving was made from ICE to electric? Looks as if it should be about the same from the detail in the table.

thanks, DL

[goingbush]

This type of build is really interesting and you've done a great job.

Thanks for sharing all the details also!

Just curious where the weight saving was made from ICE to electric? Looks as if it should be about the same from the detail in the table.

thanks, DL

Cheers, The missing ~150Kg is in the Exhaust , Cooling System , Oil bath Air cleaner, and a box full of assorted bits & pieces I pulled off .the Series

I recently lost a few more Kg as I replaced the Series Accelerator pedal, linkages & golf buggy potentiometer with a Hall effect pedal from a Honda CRX & swapped my SLA 12V battery (for lights / hazards etc) with a Motobatt Lithium.

[DiscoMick]

The new Nissan Leaf seems like a good thing.

2019 Nissan Leaf review: Quick drive | CarAdvice (https://www.caradvice.com.au/691127/2019-nissan-leaf-review-quick-drive/)

[DiscoMick]

Dyson to build electric cars in Singapore, with launch planned for 2021

Dyson to build electric cars in Singapore, with launch planned for 2021 | Technology | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/oct/23/dyson-to-build-electric-cars-in-singapore-with-launch-planned-for-2021?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[PhilipA]

The new Nissan Leaf seems like a good thing.

2019 Nissan Leaf review: Quick drive | CarAdvice (https://www.caradvice.com.au/691127/2019-nissan-leaf-review-quick-drive/)

Soooo,50k for a car with the size and attributes of a Honda Jazz.( about 15k) I can see lots of people buying that although many latte sippers in Redfern or East Melbourne May buy them.

regards Philip A

[DiscoMick]

Yes, the price needs to come down, which I assume it will over time.

[PhilipA]

Yes, the price needs to come down, which I assume it will over time.
not according to BMW. And they should know.

regards Philip A

[Don 130]

I saw these (http://www.ubcobikes.com/au/)at AGQUIP at Gunnedah recently. Two wheel drive, I think they're pretty nifty. I'd have one to go to work.
Don.

[goingbush]

I saw these (http://www.ubcobikes.com/au/)at AGQUIP at Gunnedah recently. Two wheel drive, I think they're pretty nifty. I'd have one to go to work.
Don.

wow , very cool.

[Homestar]

That's cool! Geez, I could use that to run down to the shops, throw in the back of the 101 when camping, use it on the big events I do.... Couple of solar panels on the roof (I've yet to do this for my house yet, but I'm getting there) so ziltch to run apart from rego and insurance.

Will see if I have enough pocket money sometime next year - that is a cracking little unit. [smilebigeye]

I bet Vicroads would still slug me $700+ a year to register it though.... [bigsad]

[cjc_td5]

I saw these (http://www.ubcobikes.com/au/)at AGQUIP at Gunnedah recently. Two wheel drive, I think they're pretty nifty. I'd have one to go to work.
Don.

Wow, wonder what the range is? For the average farm that only needed 5-10km to do a farm inspection, they would be ideal.

C

[Don 130]

Wow, wonder what the range is? For the average farm that only needed 5-10km to do a farm inspection, they would be ideal.

C

120 km
Don

[Homestar]

Yep, very good range - even if it is less in reality than what they claim, still plenty of KM no matter what you plan on doing with it - I'm seriously interested in one - I just need to get through a few more months to see how my finances will end up - I've been looking at an old Jag too, so my piggy bank is going to take a hit at some stage regardless...[biggrin]

[Homestar]

Interesting interview today on ABC Melbourne - listen from about 50:48 - there is some stuff on a big battery for Vic, then some detail on some new charging stations and tech the big car OEM's are looking at introducing.

Mornings - Mornings - ABC Radio (https://www.abc.net.au/radio/melbourne/programs/mornings/mornings/10394510)

[goingbush]

.

[DiscoMick]

Some grey nomads are carrying electric bikes now.

[DiscoMick]

Cleaner, greener and easier: Why aren't we all driving electric cars?
Cleaner, greener and easier: Why aren’t we all driving electric cars? - Hack - triple j (http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/why-arent-we-all-driving-electric-cars/10430374)

[goingbush]

since we are also talking about Motorcycles Dr Chris Jones (referred to in above article) is a bit of a Legend in that regard

Chris is developing the Voltron Evo , check it out (mixing it with ICE bikes) - also check the amps regen under braking


https://youtu.be/qUlt_2Z1ubc

[DiscoMick]

SP Group to double electric vehicle charging points to 1,000 by 2020 - Channel NewsAsia (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/sp-group-electric-vehicle-charging-points-1000-by-2020-10863134)

[DiscoMick]

since we are also talking about Motorcycles Dr Chris Jones (referred to in above article) is a bit of a Legend in that regard

Chris is developing the Voltron Evo , check it out (mixing it with ICE bikes) - also check the amps regen under braking


https://youtu.be/qUlt_2Z1ubcMan that thing goes!

[DiscoMick]

Why did Dyson pick Singapore to build its electric car? - Channel NewsAsia (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/why-did-dyson-pick-singapore-electric-car-10860384)

[4bee]

Even with an abundance of suitable EVs at affordable prices, many millions around the world will not be able to buy them because of local factors that prevent convenient charging. And these are not just third world infrastructure problems. Certainly there will still be demand for ICE in 15 years.

Having just returned from a trip to London, I was reminded that there are millions of homes in the UK that have no garage and no driveway, where cars are parked out front on the street. The councils will not allow extension leads to run from houses across pedestrian path ways. My dad wants a little EV for his retirement run about but cant buy one because he is not allowed to charge it on his street. He may not get to see the infrastructure changes he needs, the council have nothing in the pipeline for his street. London proposed phone repeaters through the underground train/tube system in ~2000. 18 years later and the underground is still a blackout zone. I'm just saying, the progress of change can be frustratingly slow.

The EV will be king of the driveway, so much better than ICE - BUT for the quick transition we are hoping for we need to improve energy storage way beyond lithium. The current scale of lithium battery production is already causing significant environmental issues, and it will get much worse if this resource hungry old battery tech is packed into every new vehicle on the road. Lithium batteries are great for your remote control car, but it starts to get ridiculous when you scale it up.

If we are going to allow the auto industry to do a mass roll out with huge lithium battery packs, we should give proper scrutiny to the environmental costs, and set acceptable standards for recycling.

In Australia I would like to see mandatory recycling of lithium batteries to an acceptable standard, with huge fines for non-compliance. Currently we recycle 2% of lithium batteries in this country. Those that are recycled only salvage a small percentage of content, and much of the waste is burnt off. Most of what is not sent to recycle ends up in landfill, leaking into the ground. Surely we need to get this all in order.

The spiralling environmental cost of our lithium battery addiction | WIRED UK (https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact)



Obviously what is needed then is someone to come up with recharging by Wi-Fi. [biggrin]

[superquag]

Dyson to build electric cars in Singapore, with launch planned for 2021

Dyson to build electric cars in Singapore, with launch planned for 2021 | Technology | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/oct/23/dyson-to-build-electric-cars-in-singapore-with-launch-planned-for-2021?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

Given the huge premium in 'Dyson' prices over similar brand-name equivalents, I shudder to think what the Dyson Dragster is going to be ticketed at !!!

Just curious, but what is the thinking of a D1 or Classic conversion ? Cheap to buy and relatively easy to access etc, and taking out the gearbox for weight saving.
Or would an initially lighter vehicle be the way to go?

The Lady Sarah, '95 Classic, replaced by a teetotal Mazda 121

[DiscoMick]

I see Nissan Australia is planning for one-third of its vehicle sales here to be electric.

Nissan LEAF | 100% Electric Car, Zero Petrol (http://www.nissan.com.au/cars-vehicles/all-new-leaf/overview)

[bee utey]

I see Nissan Australia is planning for one-third of its vehicle sales here to be electric.



Electrified, not electric. Most will have fossil fuel engines as well as a small battery and motor.

[DiscoMick]

They said electric. Are you saying hybrid?
Nissan Australia to electrify a third of its volume (http://www.nissan.com.au/discover/news/2018/october/04/nissan-australia-to-electrify-a-third-of-its-volume)

[goingbush]

<snip>
Just curious, but what is the thinking of a D1 or Classic conversion ? Cheap to buy and relatively easy to access etc, and taking out the gearbox for weight saving.
Or would an initially lighter vehicle be the way to go?

The Lady Sarah, '95 Classic, replaced by a teetotal Mazda 121

Depends on intended purpose .

Obviously a smaller / lighter vehicle will achieve the same range with a smaller battery pack, which will cost less up front and be faster to recharge.

Weight Saving by removing the gearbox will be negated by weight/cost of a larger battery and consume more power to run without one as well as the cost of a more powerful motor . (unless your doing a budget conversion with a cheaper / more torquey DC motor - which are fine without a gearbox)

A conversion will cost upwards of 20k (A/C motor & Lithiums) Probably overcapitalising on a D1 , converting a More valuable car or a classic makes more sense.(in my opinion) .

[bee utey]

They said electric. Are you saying hybrid?
Nissan Australia to electrify a third of its volume (http://www.nissan.com.au/discover/news/2018/october/04/nissan-australia-to-electrify-a-third-of-its-volume)

Of course. There aren't enough battery plants on the planet to allow them to go fully electric with anything more than a small fraction of their production. From your link:


Sydney, Australia (4 October, 2018) – Nissan has announced that during the current mid-term plan, one third of its Australian volume will include electric technology.

An almost meaningless answer. What kind of electric tech? Battery operated starter motors to replace crank handles? Hah! Manufacturers all over the world have been caught flat footed and have to find supplies of batteries somewhere. The leader of the pack (Tesla) knew all about this need and built their own gigafactory. VW is building a battery factory in eastern Germany but it won't be producing volume until 2020.

[bee utey]

Obviously a smaller / lighter vehicle will achieve the same range with a smaller battery pack, which will cost less up front and be faster to recharge.


Based on percentage of capacity yes, but on range no. A bigger battery can be charged at a higher current level and add more range per hour than a smaller battery, depending of course on your available power source to the charging equipment.

[goingbush]

Based on percentage of capacity yes, but on range no. A bigger battery can be charged at a higher current level and add more range per hour than a smaller battery, depending of course on your available power source to the charging equipment.

How so ??

My 1500kg LandRover has a 28.8 kwh pack , I recently installed a kwh meter on the circuit I use to charge the vehicle, so that I can calculate the precise km per kWh.

So the first time I charged via the meter I used 15.8kwh for 56km = 34kwh / 100km (and I certainly don't drive to maximise range)

A Nissan Leaf gets 18kwh /100km Tesla Model S is quoted at 20kwh /100km (probably driven carefully)

So lets say I converted a MiniMoke used the same 28.8 kwh Pack which would still fit nicely , I could use a less powerful motor for the same oomph & the car would weigh less than 1000kg , The range would inversely proportional to the decrease in weight and drag, probably more like 18-20kwh / 100km than my 33kwh/100km

[bee utey]

How so ??

My 1500kg LandRover has a 28.8 kwh pack , I recently installed a kwh meter on the circuit I use to charge the vehicle, so that I can calculate the precise km per kWh.

So the first time I charged via the meter I used 15.8kwh for 56km = 34kwh / 100km (and I certainly don't drive to maximise range)

A Nissan Leaf gets 18kwh /100km Tesla Model S is quoted at 20kwh /100km (probably driven carefully)

So lets say I converted a MiniMoke used the same 28.8 kwh Pack which would still fit nicely , I could use a less powerful motor for the same oomph & the car would weigh less than 1000kg , The range would inversely proportional to the decrease in weight and drag, probably more like 18-20kwh / 100km than my 33kwh/100km

If you can charge a 28.8kWh pack at say 5kW you can charge a 57.6kWh pack at 10kW (assuming parallel packs) and not stress the batteries. The twice bigger pack does not halve the range. Apart from the increase in road friction from a heavier battery, most of the time you would be able to recover more energy with regen braking than from a lighter pack. So a bigger battery can be given more range per hour of charging.

[mick88]

since we are also talking about Motorcycles Dr Chris Jones (referred to in above article) is a bit of a Legend in that regard

Chris is developing the Voltron Evo , check it out (mixing it with ICE bikes) - also check the amps regen under braking


https://youtu.be/qUlt_2Z1ubc

A few years ago I watched a program on the Discovery Channel about electric motorcycles racing at the Isle of Mann.
They were crackin, 200 kph plus and just a whisper and a rush of air as they flashed by.
One guy had been playing with designing and building them since as far back as the 1970's.

Cheers, Mick.

[mick88]

I wonder if these longer refill/recharge times compared to ICE vehicles will see a resurgence of the "Roadhouse" and their dining rooms while people are waiting for the top up.

Cheers, Mick.

[DiscoMick]

So the world's best-selling EV is not a Tesla, but the Nissan Leaf, with 360,000 sold.
The new Leaf is coming to Oz next year for about $50k, which is middle of the pack for a new vehicle.
It will have a 40 kw electric system with a range stated at 270 km for Australia and about 350 km for Europe. It can recharge to 80% in 60 minutes.
So, is it a viable vehicle?
I think it would work fine for us around the city and on our regular trips to Maleny and Lismore.
On longer trips we would need recharging stops. To visit family in Coffs we would need to recharge, probably at Lismore or Ballina.
To visit our oldest son in Sydney we would need to recharge three times, probably at Lismore or Ballina, Coffs and Taree. So let's say three stops for two hours each to get full 270km range. So I estimate 15 hours Brisbane-Sydney.
In our Mazda 2 or Defender we normally stop twice for rests and for one fuel stop. So let's say 11 hours.
So Brisbane-Sydney would be four hours longer in a Leaf, but still doable in a day.
So EVs are getting competitive.

[weeds]

So the world's best-selling EV is not a Tesla, but the Nissan Leaf, with 360,000 sold.
The new Leaf is coming to Oz next year for about $50k, which is middle of the pack for a new vehicle.
It will have a 40 kw electric system with a range stated at 270 km for Australia and about 350 km for Europe. It can recharge to 80% in 60 minutes.
So, is it a viable vehicle?
I think it would work fine for us around the city and on our regular trips to Maleny and Lismore.
On longer trips we would need recharging stops. To visit family in Coffs we would need to recharge, probably at Lismore or Ballina.
To visit our oldest son in Sydney we would need to recharge three times, probably at Lismore or Ballina, Coffs and Taree. So let's say three stops for two hours each to get full 270km range. So I estimate 15 hours Brisbane-Sydney.
In our Mazda 2 or Defender we normally stop twice for rests and for one fuel stop. So let's say 11 hours.
So Brisbane-Sydney would be four hours longer in a Leaf, but still doable in a day.
So EVs are getting competitive.

Are the charge points on car universal? Can a Leaf be charged at a Tesla station?

Are there currently quick charge stations at Lismore, ballina and Taree

15hrs to Sydney....that’s a long day if charging station are available......imagine if there is a line up, you can fuel a lot of cars in two hours.

We would consider an electric car for running around Brisbane.....I think it’s a long way off for interstate trips for those like us that still work and only have limited holidays. Loosing one day to charge....doesn’t excite me.

$20k v $50k.....can buy a whole lot of fuel for $30k

[DiscoMick]

Not many EVs around so it's highly unlikely another would already be using a charging point. They will use 15 amp charge points or normal power points I believe.

[DiscoMick]

Electric Car Charging Stations Australia Mapped - Drive Zero (https://www.drivezero.com.au/electric-car-charging-stations/#nsw)

[weeds]

Electric Car Charging Stations Australia Mapped - Drive Zero (https://www.drivezero.com.au/electric-car-charging-stations/#nsw)

Just had a quick look......fast chargers as few and far between and the one near Taree is at a winery with opening closing times. Others appear off the main hi-way which adds time.......In some cases you will need to plan your trip around opening hours.

More charging points than I thought, Murphy’s law others ie locals will be charging as you pass through town.

Be interesting how many dong the long distances up and down the east coast.

[weeds]

Looking a bit more into the app I remembered a BMW getting a charge at Springer, this would be the day that I was visiting, staff were very excited.

I do remember dad in front seat and at least one young kid in the back seat sitting there passing time

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181028/3bfe527c62f312347176c384f648a63f.jpg

[DiscoMick]

EV charging station map allows round Australia electric car trips. (https://www.energymatters.com.au/renewable-news/tesla-car-australia-ev-charging-station-map/)

[weeds]

While zooming around the first link I found this pic, would this guy be using his generator and mains at the same time?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181028/ca40cf8ef5963db37cb1b3d46b10b97d.jpg

[weeds]

He is a regular........bloody cables plugged in everywhere

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181028/cbd96fc039c5a6c8afc8f4be2589532d.jpg

[weeds]

Interesting, I followed the Ute as far north as Townsville.

[goingbush]

If he has 2 onboard chargers theres no reason he cant use both at once. If the BP charger is a Rapid charger it will be charging DC direct into the battery , whilst the Generator is feeding the onboard charger.

Depending on what C rating his cells are . My LifePo4 200Ah Prismatic cells are 2C charge (can accept 400 Amps) and 3C discharge ( can feed 600Amp into motor)

My 3.3kw onboard charger plugs into a 240V 15Amp AC outlet & charges the battery pack at 168V DC / 22Amp , so no problems pumping more in at the same . Most DIY EV's have a 3.3kw 15A or 6.6kw 32A (3 phase) charger.

[bee utey]

Another interesting factoid is that having a bigger electric motor doesn't necessarily reduce your range. Running a bigger motor at the same output as a smaller motor means that losses in the iron core are much reduced. Reports are coming in that a dual motor Tesla M3 goes about 5 miles further per charge than the single motor model with the same battery. This is despite the extra frictional losses due to the second motor and drive components.

[DiscoMick]

I have an electric mower, an electric chainsaw and a shelf of electric power tools. They are great. Meanwhile the petrol ride on mower is dead and not worth fixing and the petrol Honda push mower died and is in the repair shop. I think I see a trend...
Next step is to buy larger batteries.
I think people still see EVs as toys and haven't accepted that they are the future here now.
In 20 years electric vehicles will be normal and fossil fuelled vehicles will be regarded as quaint classics, like early Holdens are now, I predict.