4bd1 (or later 4bd1-T) Oil - M1 Delvac?

[G.man]

Hey,

just figured I would ask about engine oil.

What do you guys use for the Isuzu 4bd1 - turbo/non turbo?

Looking at Mobil oils (Delvac) and they have 3 types.

1: 15w 40 Mobil MX
2: 15w 40 Mobil MX ESP
3: 5w 40 Mobil 1 ESP

The M1 ESP is a full synthetic oil while the MX and MX ESP are mineral based.

The perenties dont have CAT/DPF etc which the ESP was designed to meet... having said though, does that mean the ESP wont protect as good/longer as the regular MX or does it mean it will as it is more modern/improved technology?

Cost wise the 5w 40 is 2.7x more than the other two, MX and MX ESP is only $25 difference.

What will be the best long term in the engine?

Anything else I should know?

[tc_s1]

After trying a few different ones I settled on Mack EOS-4.5 diesel engine oil for the past year. Started with one truck, now running in all three. Thusfar could not be happier.

[Red90]

All will be fine for Australia.

[87County]

I have used Castrol RX Super (15W-40) and have had trouble free running in all my diesels for years.

I'll stick my neck out and post that IME the LR tdis and Isuzu 4BD1s are old tech and do not need the latest expensive synthetics.

I look forward to reading what Rick130 posts

[Vern]

What ever is on special

[rick130]

What ever is on specialThis ^

The major difference is that Delvac 1 can go longer between drains if you so desire and at extremes of operation will protect a little better, but no one ever really gets there, despite what they may think.

[G.man]

Thanks.

Since delvac 1 can go longer between drains, does that in any way mean protects better or is that basically they protect the same just one does it for a longer time period?

How much difference would we be talking here in terms of "one can go further between changes"?

I spoke to M1 and they told me the ESP M1 on trucks get changed every 30-40,000 km.

I mean from my regular 10k per oil service on my regular car, 40k is HUGE difference.

Why would a person not want a very long drain interval? I mean it only means less cost on maintenence the further it goes...

I was always under the impression that full synthetics would always in the long run be better than mineral based oils (for petrol engines) is it not the same thing for diesels?

[tc_s1]

I do twice a year with normal driving, minimum, more when big trips are mixed in, regardless of their claims.

[rick130]

Thanks.

Since delvac 1 can go longer between drains, does that in any way mean protects better or is that basically they protect the same just one does it for a longer time period?

How much difference would we be talking here in terms of "one can go further between changes"?

I spoke to M1 and they told me the ESP M1 on trucks get changed every 30-40,000 km.

I mean from my regular 10k per oil service on my regular car, 40k is HUGE difference.

Why would a person not want a very long drain interval? I mean it only means less cost on maintenence the further it goes...

I was always under the impression that full synthetics would always in the long run be better than mineral based oils (for petrol engines) is it not the same thing for diesels?Hahaha, 30-40k for the full syn?
Try 90-110,000km between changes.
Trucks do 30,000km on mineral oil. [emoji6]

Several factors at play here.
1. Sump capacities are 25+ litres.
2. Makeup oil over that time replenishes the additive package.
3. Interstate line haul is relatively kind to oil compared to local delivery as temps and loads are relatively consistent.

Full syn oil oxidises at a slower rate than a mineral counterpart, ultimate wear protection may or may not be at a lower rate, it all comes down to the additive package and its suitability for a particular engine.

I have a lot of time for Delvac 1.
The old CI-4 version was able to go 20,000km easily in my partners TD42T Patrol with better wear metal numbers at that distance than a full mineral Fuchs oil at 5,000km, which was a very good oil in it's own right.
It also stopped the Tdi in the Defender from breaking the crank or spinning a bearing when the big ends delaminated.
A lot of late '98 Tdi's had crank/big ends fail catastrophically due to faulty big ends.
A quick linish of one journal in situ, slapped a new set of big ends in (clearances were spot on) and that engine is still fine seven years later.

I haven't run that oil for over six years, but it is very good.

[rick130]

How far you can go on an oil depends on doing oil tests, establishing a trend and monitoring.

Loaded 4X4 Issue 004 | Loaded 4X4 (http://www.loaded4x4.com.au/issue-004/#121)

[DazzaTD5]

IMHO......

There is way too much thinking going on here for a tractor engine with a cast iron block and head....
As others have suggested, whatever diesel oil is on special, be that 5W40, 10W40, 15W40 all in a semi synthetic.
Change 6 monthly or 10K, dont forget the fuel and air filters.

[G.man]

IMHO......

There is way too much thinking going on here for a tractor engine with a cast iron block and head....
As others have suggested, whatever diesel oil is on special, be that 5W40, 10W40, 15W40 all in a semi synthetic.
Change 6 monthly or 10K, dont forget the fuel and air filters.

Ok... but heres the question then. rick suggested trucks run 100,000km on the ESP 1. So why would you get oil that has to be changed every 10,000 if you can get an oil that lasts for 50,000+ before having to muck around with it?

Regular services cost $300-$400. Oil change every 10,000 = $1200-$1600 every 40,000km.

If a $300 oil over a $100 oil lasts 40,000km absolute minimum, thats 3-400 for 1 service and thats it for the same 40,000km it cost near 1500 before.

So just trying to gauge a few things here

[steveG]

There's typically also a calendar interval with oil changes, and most manufacturers recommend more frequent changes in eg dusty conditions.
A truck thats getting 100k change intervals will likely be doing that distance in a few months, and all on-road. Personally I only do about 10k a year in the landy. No way I'm only doing an oil change every 10 years.

The same oil in different engines/vehicles/environments will have a different lifespan, so unless you're doing testing as Rick suggested earlier its just a guess as to whether you can actually run an expensive oil for longer before changing.

I've got the truck type Isuzu twin filters (full flow + bypass) on my turbo'd 4bd1, and I change filters and oil around 10k using Castrol RX Super 15w40.
The NPR trucks with that filter setup had a 12k change interval, so I'm not panicked if circumstances push me out a few thousand km's over my normal 10k.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by a typical service costing $3-400. RX Super costs me $100 for 20L (so about $40 for 8L change), fuel and oil filters around $50 and even with an air filter as well you'd be lucky to get to $150 total.

Steve

[DazzaTD5]

*If owners want to do 50K oil changes, or never, its their choice.
*If owners want to believe marketing label BS thats also their choice.
*Also note that such labels as "full synthetic" are not a recognised standard or specification, its simply a marketing term.
*There is LOTS of info on AULRO or discussions at least on oil, its properties, and how/when it should be changed.

Why anyone would want to leave oil in their light vehicle for 30, 40, 50K I don't know

[Phil B]

Also interesting that the ADF specified 10k km oil changes with filter for the Perentie's regardless of NA or T.
Castrol RX Super and Isuzu filter at 10k km or 12 month intervals sounds good to me.

But that just me. As Dazza said each to their own.

[G.man]

The only reason you would change it much later is because the oil is still doing its job. Thats the whole point to "full synthetics". Why change it early if it is still good? waste of money.

How long ago did ADF specify 10k/12m, in the 1990s when oil technology was nowhere near what it is today?

I understand everyone can do what they want, all im trying to work out is, why would you want to change it that frequent if you can buy oil that will go 4x the distance before having to change it? Its less work and cost.

So a trip around australia which can clock up 10,000 km in 1 go I would need to do a full oil/filter change wherever I am at the time of the trip based on the 10k?

And if a lot of dirt driving is done, would it still be 10k or less?

[Phil B]

The service intervals are still current AFAIK because Perenties are still in service
The service interval would take into account all driving conditions
Yes you would have to change oil several times on a long trip but if you take the filters with you it’s only the cost of the oil and any mechanic could do it
I recently changed oil in Tassie on a trip at a small town and he only charged me $150 incl the oil! Bargain!

[DazzaTD5]

As with a lot of oil threads this will go round in circles.
If you do a search there are some really good threads on, as I said earlier oils, tech, etc etc.

Again personally if I had just done a 10K stint in one hit, I would be itching to change the oil and filters.

With customers vehicles, I'm not trying to get a long service life out of the engine oil, I'm trying to get a long service life out of the engine.
All said and done engine oil is cheaper than engine replacement, take that statement as you wish.

[steveG]

I'll be genuinely interested in what you decide to do G.man. Particularly if you end up doing oil sampling which IMO is the only way to truly know what condition the oil is in.
My gut feel is that if you run a fully synthetic in a 4bd1/t the oil is going to need changing due to being full of soot and dirt before the oil itself is stuffed - but I don't have any data to back that up.

And just to show that I'm not anti-synth or stuck in the dark ages due to inability to change, I run a full synth in my LT95 gearbox.
No it doesn't need it, and its nothing to do with cost - I just HATE changing the gearbox oil so it pretty much stays in there until I feel like changing it, I think it needs changing, or it suffers an external event that forces a change (seal replacement etc).

I'm comfortable that even if it breaks down to only being half as good as it was when it was first put in its still going to be better than good mineral engine oil, and since its not subject to the same crud accumulation as a diesel engine I'm OK that it will be the oil breakdown that controls its life rather than other factors.
Would I do the same in a highly stressed manual trans or expensive auto trans - likely not.
Would I do the same in a weekend play toy that was likely to get regularly drowned - definitely not. I'd run cheap and change often to keep it clean.

Good luck with whichever way you go. In the end its only you that has to be comfortable with whatever you decide.

Steve

[rar110]

In my perentie, the engine sounds smoother after an oil change. I also fitted a centrifuge to help clean the oil. The 4BD1 is a dirty motor by modern standards. There’s a lot of soot suspended in the oil by the 10k km interval. The oil is probably still viable but I wouldn’t leave it longer.

Also its pretty humid in Oz. So potential for moisture build up in oil.

[JDNSW]

........

Also its pretty humid in Oz. So potential for moisture build up in oil.

In view of the fact that most of Australia is arid by world standards, and a large part of Australia is in the grip of possibly the worst drought in history, that is a pretty bold statement! I do agree that Brisbane (and coastal parts from about Melbourne to Cairns) does tend to be humid, but the vast majority of Australia is not.

And moisture buildup does not normally happen in oil even in humid climates unless the engine is used infrequently and/or never reaches operating temperature for any length of time. Once the engine is at normal operating temperature, moisture is rapidly evaporated from the oil.

[rick130]

Did you read the Loaded4x4 link I posted?

I wrote it for the last issue specifically about tailoring oil change intervals from the recommended service interval and how they often need to be reduced.

Have a read of it, then come back and ask questions.

[rar110]

In view of the fact that most of Australia is arid by world standards, and a large part of Australia is in the grip of possibly the worst drought in history, that is a pretty bold statement! I do agree that Brisbane (and coastal parts from about Melbourne to Cairns) does tend to be humid, but the vast majority of Australia is not.

And moisture buildup does not normally happen in oil even in humid climates unless the engine is used infrequently and/or never reaches operating temperature for any length of time. Once the engine is at normal operating temperature, moisture is rapidly evaporated from the oil.

Correct, should have said northern coastal Australia. I get condensation build up in my 55lt fuel tank.

[G.man]

Did you read the Loaded4x4 link I posted?

I wrote it for the last issue specifically about tailoring oil change intervals from the recommended service interval and how they often need to be reduced.

Have a read of it, then come back and ask questions.

Hey, yes I did all i understood from it was if you drive in dusty conditions change more often and that synthetic oil is more stable against oxidising and can run further (depending?)

I will be driving it minimum 2 hours each direction for what i do as II wont be using it in the city. Will be all country type driving. So engine will getup to operating temperature etc but it doesnt really answer what I did ask here.

From what I think I am getting is, even if i was to buy the Mobil ESP 1 5w 40 full synthetic, it would still need to be changed at 10,000 just like the regular MX would and it wont prolong the life of the engine due to 'better protection' over the MX either which suggests all that will happen is, it will cost me more going the 5w 40 full synth with no benefits over the MX.

If that is right, then why on earth spendtime developing these high end oils if the cheap stuff just as good. Thats where im ???

[DazzaTD5]

back to IMHO....

oil testing, full synthetic oils etc etc.... to me is wasting money and time.
Its a very low tech highly durable cast iron lunk of an engine.
The only single slight down side to this engine is, like a lot of jap engines they seem a bit dirty and sooty.

I've just done a service on my own Perentie and used what I use on customers vehicles a 5W40 semi synthetic.

[rick130]

Ok.
We went full syn and oil testing in the Patrol way back whenever as I was over doing an oil change every 2.5 weeks (5,000km oil drains)

Economically it made sense as I could easily go 20,000km with D1, with wear metal numbers the same as the previously used Fuchs oil at 5,000km.

When the ex and I separated that car had over 450,000km on it with only a puff of smoke from stem seals of a morning, otherwise it was running like a top. (We'd had it since new)
By that stage I'd brought the change intervals back to 10,000km as it wasn't doing long trips towing anymore.

Modern heavy duty diesel oils are bloody impressive, and you really need to do the numbers to see if the full syn oil is worth it.
In most cases these days it isn't.

The opposite side of the coin was the 300Tdi.
You'd think, nice, clean direct injected, high efficiency diesel compared to the old IDI TD42T would take to syn oil like the proverbial.
17,000km the oil was well past toast, it was stuffed.
15,000km was a stretch too far.
I stuck to 10,000km oil drains.

The 4BD1 is relatively unstressed and are known for doing serious km on average oils with regular servicing.

If you still want to go the full syn path put a really good mineral oil in it first, take a test at 10,000km at last three times to establish a trend and then if you really want to spend the $ try the full syn.

Its worth the while of interstate line haul operators to go the full syn route through the entire driveline as it saves $ over 1,000,000km, but when we are only doing 25,000km/year?

[G.man]

Ok.
We went full syn and oil testing in the Patrol way back whenever as I was over doing an oil change every 2.5 weeks (5,000km oil drains)

Economically it made sense as I could easily go 20,000km with D1, with wear metal numbers the same as the previously used Fuchs oil at 5,000km.

When the ex and I separated that car had over 450,000km on it with only a puff of smoke from stem seals of a morning, otherwise it was running like a top. (We'd had it since new)
By that stage I'd brought the change intervals back to 10,000km as it wasn't doing long trips towing anymore.

Modern heavy duty diesel oils are bloody impressive, and you really need to do the numbers to see if the full syn oil is worth it.
In most cases these days it isn't.

The opposite side of the coin was the 300Tdi.
You'd think, nice, clean direct injected, high efficiency diesel compared to the old IDI TD42T would take to syn oil like the proverbial.
17,000km the oil was well past toast, it was stuffed.
15,000km was a stretch too far.
I stuck to 10,000km oil drains.

The 4BD1 is relatively unstressed and are known for doing serious km on average oils with regular servicing.

If you still want to go the full syn path put a really good mineral oil in it first, take a test at 10,000km at last three times to establish a trend and then if you really want to spend the $ try the full syn.

Its worth the while of interstate line haul operators to go the full syn route through the entire driveline as it saves $ over 1,000,000km, but when we are only doing 25,000km/year?


So stick to the mx for 3-4 oil changes and get it tested to see whats going on then try the full synthetic and see what happens with that at same intervals and thus deduct if it is even worth worrying about?

The D1 is 5w 40 the MX is 15w 40. Is any of that gonna matter even in winter, barrington tops, snow mountains etc? I always liked 0w just because it flows easy on startup where most wear happens. Thats probably a bigger reason I was looking at the D1 to start with 5w while MX is 15w.

[Vern]

Get the car first, then worry about the oil![emoji6][emoji38]

[rick130]

So stick to the mx for 3-4 oil changes and get it tested to see whats going on then try the full synthetic and see what happens with that at same intervals and thus deduct if it is even worth worrying about?

The D1 is 5w 40 the MX is 15w 40. Is any of that gonna matter even in winter, barrington tops, snow mountains etc? I always liked 0w just because it flows easy on startup where most wear happens. Thats probably a bigger reason I was looking at the D1 to start with 5w while MX is 15w.

At 'normal' start up temps, ie. above 0° there'll only be a small difference in flow rates at start up, and the warmer it is, particularly above 10° there will be bugger all in it.

I've plotted viscosity curves and at least one 15W-40 was better than everyone else's 10W-40 at 0°.
There really is no need in Australia for 5W or 0W-xx oils, we just don't get cold enough.

It's only in, say, Canberra, Cooma, Armidale or the snow that the 5w or 10w will pump a little more easily, and with the 15w it's only a bit more stress on the starter, so take it a little easier until you get the oil temps up.

In terms of wear protection you can blend a mineral oil to be stronger than a synthetic oil, and some are.
The additive package is what's important, the syn oils will just go longer.
Some blenders use a relatively 'weak' add pack in their syn oils, relying on the film strength and marketing of it being a syn.
Its a cheap arse way of making an oil but it sucks people in with the marketing.

Look for an ACEA E4, E6, E9 oil.
E9 are mid SAPS oils but the wear, sludge, etc specs are really tight.
Any combination or all, the ACEA specs are a lot more stringent than the API CI-4+, CJ-4 specs.
And if you want the 'Syn' advantage with a slightly more cost effective oil, the Euro truck spec 10W-40 oils are excellent.
These are the ones rated for 100,000km+ in the big Euro trucks.
They are generally Group III based and really good value if you want to extend drains with optimal protection.

[LRJim]

Get the car first, then worry about the oil![emoji6][emoji38]I agree, I reckon he's still gonna go back to the jeep after all this.
10k oil changes.....least of your worries mate.
Cheers Jim

[Homestar]

back to IMHO....

oil testing, full synthetic oils etc etc.... to me is wasting money and time.
Its a very low tech highly durable cast iron lunk of an engine.
The only single slight down side to this engine is, like a lot of jap engines they seem a bit dirty and sooty.

I've just done a service on my own Perentie and used what I use on customers vehicles a 5W40 semi synthetic.

Agreed - it’s a rugged, reliable, long lived small truck engine - they wouldn’t have the reputation they do if they **** themselves because they didn’t have pristine synthetic oil in the at all times. Chuck in whatever half decent brand you can find IMO - We had an small old Isuzu truck at a place I worked with one of these in them - it was abused and badly maintaned for a decade before I started there - it still ran fine then with over 400,000km on it and is still going today 15 years after I left although it’s not used on long runs any more. Don’t get hung up on stuff like this - go buy one and enjoy it.

[G.man]

I agree, I reckon he's still gonna go back to the jeep after all this.
10k oil changes.....least of your worries mate.
Cheers Jim

lol.

Not interested in that vehicle whatsoever.


Agreed - it’s a rugged, reliable, long lived small truck engine - they wouldn’t have the reputation they do if they **** themselves because they didn’t have pristine synthetic oil in the at all times. Chuck in whatever half decent brand you can find IMO - We had an small old Isuzu truck at a place I worked with one of these in them - it was abused and badly maintaned for a decade before I started there - it still ran fine then with over 400,000km on it and is still going today 15 years after I left although it’s not used on long runs any more. Don’t get hung up on stuff like this - go buy one and enjoy it.

Thanks, I just wanted to be sure I was going to be doing the right thing. When you go to a store, and you are spending money on X oil, I wanted to know why I am spending X amount on Y brand/type because I am not the sort of person that just buys whatever he sees without thinking about why I am (not a consumer driven individual). As I am going to keep the vehicle long term (until it is completely dead and not useable) I just wanted to be sure I was doing the right thing for longevity of the vehicle + financially for myself without having in the back of my mind "but if I used that oil, maybe it would be running better/protected better" thats all.

This is why I was looking for some clues as to why would I spend $300 on M1 Full synthetic 5w 40 over a MX Mobil 15w 40 for $100 (which I guess is similar to RX Super Diesel Castrol etc)