Toyota Warranty - Brake use - Land Rover Warranty

[ozscott]

When my and my mates LR Disco 2's were in warranty LR was always excellent to deal with. Even out of warranty. My take on most warranty posts on AULRO over the years reinforces my view that they are generally one of the best with warranty (some exceptions of course). I have had direct dealings in warranty with other car companies to compare with.

This is an interesting vid from Andrew St Pierre- White. What do you think about the fitness for purpose of the brakes and warranty issues raised by Andrew?

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpvQmmIhrXI)

Cheers

[weeds]

Given this guy gives me the ****s...I wasn’t going to watch but as I had 10 min to burn, keep in mind it is only one side of the story and of course what he says is correct.....

Yep the wear looks bad and agree it looks excessive, wearing components like brakes is hard to claim on given Toyota have no idea of his driving style.

A couple of things I did pick up in the video.....

He says he is not confrontational.....based on the videos I have watched I reckon he would get on your face pretty quick.

Simpson harder than CSR...I’ve only done the Simpson and if you keep the the tracks I didn’t see any overly tough ‘extreme’ if he drove to geo survey hill than yes thats tough ‘extreme’. The CSR must be a walk in the park.

Oh I don’t think the top of Toyota will give a toss

Wonder if the brake upgrade adjusts the rear track??

Either way by posting the way he did he’s a mark man with Toyota service....totally wrong approach to getting a successful outcome.

[DiscoClax]

This is exactly why I run slotted discs. * Flame-suit on*

Looks like grit embedding in the pads according to the video/pictures posted, but could be poor disc metallurgy or pad composition. IMHO it shouldn't have happened and something's not right there. The track increase took the brakes with it so they were just as shrouded by the wheel and dust shields. Should be reasonably comparable despite the changes made.

Question is, did he merely complain to the dealer, or did he escalate it to Head Office? If Toyota Australia themselves knocked it back, I'd have some issues. However he references "the dealership" repeatedly so I suspect he may not, in which case he's whipping a franchise lackey not the master. And ranting on social media rather than escalating it using the appropriate process is not the best way to tackle this if that is the case.

[Zeros]

I reckon he had a reasonable claim. Toyota should have replaced the rotors no questions asked at only 10,000km. But he actually ended up with a better outcome by upgrading the brakes, so it’s now a moot point, except that Toyota will have listened because of his profile.

I commend him for publishing the video given he has been cosy with Toyota for many years now. He is doing pretty well as an unbiased motoring journo whose whole career and cred is based on sharing his honest opinion, even if I don’t agree with him all the time.

Had to replace my Defender rotors at 80,000km, which I thought was a bit early, but they’d worn down and they are seen as consumables these days along with pads apparently.

By the way there’s another video on ASPW’s YouTube channel about changing the rear track of his 70 series troopy. + a good article in the most recent 4x4 adventure mag about converting 70 series rear from leaf to coil suspension...if any of us think the driveline mods required on Puma Defenders are expensive, I shudder to think what the Tojo coil conversion would have cost (he just says “unfortunately it’s somewhat expensive), just to bring it up to stock [bigwhistle]Defender spec!

[DiscoClax]

By the way there’s another video on ASPW’s YouTube channel about changing the rear track of his 70 series troopy. + a good article in the most recent 4x4 adventure mag about converting 70 series rear from leaf to coil suspension...if any of us think the driveline mods required on Puma Defenders are expensive, I shudder to think what the Tojo coil conversion would have cost (he just says “unfortunately it’s somewhat expensive), just to bring it up to stock [bigwhistle]Defender spec!

$3,350 for the track increase and $6,600 for the coil conversion. Call it $10k even...

Submitted without comment.

[Zeros]

$3,350 for the track increase and $6,600 for the coil conversion. Call it $10k even...

Submitted without comment.

Cheers. No doubt it’s the improvement I would most want if I owned a Tojo.

But it makes the necessary Ashcroft driveline upgrades on Puma Defenders look like good value, especially as they add the benefit of ATB’s.

[350RRC]

$3,350 for the track increase and $6,600 for the coil conversion. Call it $10k even...

Submitted without comment.

That's so ****ing funny.

thanks, DL

[scarry]

$3,350 for the track increase and $6,600 for the coil conversion. Call it $10k even...

Submitted without comment.

Mate had one done up here it was slightly more than that.

With the Deefer, the mods mentioned by others HAVE to be done or it is a show stopper.

With the 70 it’s an option....

Big difference.

[Zeros]

Mate had one done up here it was slightly more than that.

With the Deefer, the mods mentioned by others HAVE to be done or it is a show stopper.

With the 70 it’s an option....

Big difference.

The 70 series rear horse and cart springs and narrow rear wheel track are showstoppers for me. The first is one reason that has stopped me purchasing a Tojo in the first place. The second is no different to LR dropping the ball on the adapter shaft in late model Defenders.

[martnH]

Leaf springs actually provide better handling for heavy towing...,compared to coil springs

And I also hear ppl say the v8 lc is great for towing.....And they buy it for towing blablabla

And why would they go for coil springs? Not gonna carry heavy load anymore?....

[Zeros]

Leaf springs actually provide better handling for heavy towing...,compared to coil springs

And I also hear ppl say the v8 lc is great for towing.....And they buy it for towing blablabla

And why would they go for coil springs? Not gonna carry heavy load anymore?....

The V8 might be great for towing, but that’s not the suspension.

The payload figures between Tojo 70 and Defender don’t lie. I’ll take coils over leaves any day.
Defender 110 - 1 tonne vs 76 Wagon 780kg
Ddfender 130 - 1600kg vs 70 single cab 1200kg

[scarry]

The second is no different to LR dropping the ball on the adapter shaft in late model Defenders.


Very few would agree with that comment.

Every single Defender built since ‘07,that is the Puma models,will break down,that is have no forward motion,due to the rediculous engineering of that adapter shaft.Unless of course it is replaced with a modified design,but they fail as well,as many,and some on here have found out.

A completely different situation to vehicle track differences,which are on quite a few vehicles,with the 70 series being the most publicised.

The main advantage of coils is the better ride,and the long travel suspension.Rear leaves also can upset departure angle and get in the way at times.

[Rolly]

So given the weak link which is the adaptor shaft failing has anyone determined the best alternative?

I’m keen to know, having suffered one failure already. I’m thinking of re-greasing every 10K Km’s,......thoughts?

[Zeros]

So given the weak link which is the adaptor shaft failing has anyone determined the best alternative?

I’m keen to know, having suffered one failure already. I’m thinking of re-greasing every 10K Km’s,......thoughts?

I had mine replaced by a respected indi at just over 80,000km. It was on the verge of failing. My mechanic said if you put a new one in and grease it properly, it shouldn't fail again.

...it would be good to hear from others with higher km

[trout1105]

The V8 might be great for towing, but that’s not the suspension.

The payload figures between Tojo 70 and Defender don’t lie. I’ll take coils over leaves any day.
Defender 110 - 1 tonne vs 76 Wagon 780kg
Ddfender 130 - 1600kg vs 70 single cab 1200kg

The 130 may be able to carry 1600kg but would it be able to pull all that load all day every day with ease?
The 70 series V8 can tow a 3t van with a tray full of gear all day every day with complete ease.

[DiscoMick]

I had mine replaced by a respected indi at just over 80,000km. It was on the verge of failing. My mechanic said if you put a new one in and grease it properly, it shouldn't fail again.

...it would be good to hear from others with higher km
I had mine greased when the clutch was replaced and so far it seems fine at 115,000 kms.
Wasn't the problem because some were not greased originally at the factory?

Re. brakes, as in the OP, my Defender had the rear brakes done at 105,00 and I've just had the front brakes done (pads and rotors) at 115,000, so that's a lot better than Pierre's experience with his Tojo.

[Zeros]

I had mine greased when the clutch was replaced and so far it seems fine at 115,000 kms.
Wasn't the problem because some were not greased originally at the factory?

Re. brakes, as in the OP, my Defender had the rear brakes done at 105,00 and I've just had the front brakes done (pads and rotors) at 115,000, so that's a lot better than Pierre's experience with his Tojo.

How many kms was your clutch done Mick?

[Zeros]

The 130 may be able to carry 1600kg but would it be able to pull all that load all day every day with ease?
The 70 series V8 can tow a 3t van with a tray full of gear all day every day with complete ease.

Yes agreed, if I was wanting to tow and carry serious weight, I'd probably have to buy a Tojo. Defenders are not good tow vehicles, simply because they're under powered for that task. But I don't need to tow very often. I prefer the swag or the tent to a caravan.

But, I like the fact that Defenders are stronger from factory in terms of load carrying, not because I carry very heavy loads, but because of the general strength. Also, for a big trip with lots of water, etc, no real risk of going over GVM. Having driven lots of 70 series Tojos for work over the years, I also prefer the way Defenders handle a load with 4 coil springs.

[trout1105]

Less than 10,000km out of a set of pads and rotors is ludicrous, Most definitely not reasonable wear and tear.
I have done well over 10,000km on my DBA rotors and pads and they still look brand new and that is towing a 1.5t boat.
Toyota should have replaced the rear brakes under warranty without a doubt.

[DiscoMick]

How many kms was your clutch done Mick?From memory about 85,000.
There was a problem with weak springs on the early Puma clutches, causing them to rattle at idle, until LR upgraded the springs.

[DiscoMick]

Yes agreed, if I was wanting to tow and carry serious weight, I'd probably have to buy a Tojo. Defenders are not good tow vehicles, simply because they're under powered for that task. But I don't need to tow very often. I prefer the swag or the tent to a caravan.

But, I like the fact that Defenders are stronger from factory in terms of load carrying, not because I carry very heavy loads, but because of the general strength. Also, for a big trip with lots of water, etc, no real risk of going over GVM. Having driven lots of 70 series Tojos for work over the years, I also prefer the way Defenders handle a load with 4 coil springs.Defenders are not powerful, but they have good gearing, so I think they can tow well.

[Zeros]

From memory about 85,000.
There was a problem with weak springs on the early Puma clutches, causing them to rattle at idle, until LR upgraded the springs.

Yes I had my clutch replaced under warranty at around 50,000km, same problem. Seems ok now.

[Zeros]

Defenders are not powerful, but they have good gearing, so I think they can tow well.

Yes agree, I think they have superior gearing to Toyota. Defenders do tow well at slow speeds, but the gearing doesn't help at highway speeds, especially on hills! LOL. It's part of the Defenders character. As is frugality.

[LRT]

YouTube (https://youtu.be/LpvQmmIhrXI)

[DiscoMick]

Yes agree, I think they have superior gearing to Toyota. Defenders do tow well at slow speeds, but the gearing doesn't help at highway speeds, especially on hills! LOL. It's part of the Defenders character. As is frugality.My Puma has six speeds so it's fine towing on the highway.
The other day I saw a Ford Transit towing a large, obviously heavy, dual axle trailer loaded with equipment and it reminded me that this drive train is a real load lugger. You won't set speed records, but towing is quite possible, while using a lot less fuel than a Toyota V8.

[AK83]

Leaf springs actually provide better handling for heavy towing...,compared to coil springs

.....

Dunno what you do for a living, but it doesn't sound like you drive trucks.

I've never driven a heavily loaded vehicle with leaf springs that handled better than (usually) air bagged, and in some cases coiler(my RRC back in the day).

My main experience of this has been between Isuzu and Fuso(air bagged) and Hino(crapola leafys).
The monumental sidestepping that the Hinos' all had was never an issue in the Isuzu/Fuso's.

My last vehicle with leafs was my Rodeo ute .. and quite simply never again .. ever, will I own a leaf sprung vehicle.

Funniest experience on the difference between the two types was long ago in my RRC driving around Lake Mungo.
Been so many times I can't remember the specifics of the road/location. Was a very wide and badly corrugated dirt road, and following an XD Falcon, him doing about 20-30k/h visibly sidestepping madly all over the place.
Me and missus in RRC camping for a week or so out that way, RRC loaded food/water, quite a bit of rear end sag(those load levellers were useless).
But I could easily maintain 60k/h on the road without breaking a sweat(handling wise) .. just the noise(drumming/pounding) limited speed on this road.
Once we got past the badly corrugated section XD came past me(at 60) and him doing maybe 80 or so.

[Zeros]

My Puma has six speeds so it's fine towing on the highway.
The other day I saw a Ford Transit towing a large, obviously heavy, dual axle trailer loaded with equipment and it reminded me that this drive train is a real load lugger. You won't set speed records, but towing is quite possible, while using a lot less fuel than a Toyota V8.

Yep all Pumas are six speed. Yes they’ll lug all day long. And at speed limits on highway no probs. But hit a hill or a headwind, its down to 80 or 60km/hr. Not that it bothers me.

There is a big difference between the power of a Puma 4 and a Tojo V8...I understand why thos who tow big loads all the time prefer a bigger engine.

[ramblingboy42]

Defenders are not powerful, but they have good gearing, so I think they can tow well.

defenders are not powerful but you can give then an extra 30+% power and torque quite cheaply which is significant.

if you know the right guy you can get the power figures that Jaguar were using with the same engine. 170kw I believe and 5-600 torques.

a company on the Gold Coast will do it for you without intercoolers and egt guages necessary.

[Zeros]

if you know the right guy you can get the power figures that Jaguar were using with the same engine. 170kw I believe and 5-600 torques.

Which Jaguar vehicle is that?

[ozscott]

defenders are not powerful but you can give then an extra 30+% power and torque quite cheaply which is significant.

if you know the right guy you can get the power figures that Jaguar were using with the same engine. 170kw I believe and 5-600 torques.

a company on the Gold Coast will do it for you without intercoolers and egt guages necessary.How does that work though for longevity ? Heavily boosted td5's need to be watched in terms of exhaust gas temps when towing etc. Puma is smaller again, especially Puma 2. The Puma is a small engine already putting out big numbers. I would take big lazy cubes any day for towing and look to very long miles without incident.

Cheers

[rick130]

Leaf springs actually provide better handling for heavy towing...,compared to coil springs



No.

Not if the rear end geometry is sound.

Leaves are cheap to design and make.
Simples.

[martnH]

Well no I don't drive a truck. I am a dentist...

Leaf springs will provide more stability when towing. Simply because it allow few directions of movement, mostlt vertical. This will reduce sway. Also leaf spring by design are all progressively rated

Leaf springs can take more load.
Yes some may say what if I put helper airbag in coil spring, this will increase spring rate and my defender can also carry tons of valuable camping equipments

Well yes and No. the thing is not just the spring rate but also the spring mount. How the force is transmitted to the chassis

Leaf spring can spread the heavy load along the chassis, when the coil spring can not. I have seen the coil spring mount (chassis end) cracks on a Patrol. It's simply the design not the brand.

Also I have to say, leaf spring two bushes, on my defender you can guess how many. If I use my defender to tow heavy load. God help me when it comes to bush renewal.


I know coil springs has more flex and perform better in racing. As in your description, more speed on gravel road. But it's irrelevant to towing isnt it?.....

the better handling of a coil spring car is mostly because of the reduced unsprung weight.
Less unsprung rate = feeling sportier, more agile. Because leaf spring is heavy it has more unsprung weight so the handling affexted

on the other hand, you will see ppl put heavy wolf wheels on their defender to increase unsprung weight, worsening handling. Go figure if handling is that important to us "tractor" drivers

This is why I say towing with leaf spring suspension is probably wiser.

Happy to know if otherwise

Cheers


Dunno what you do for a living, but it doesn't sound like you drive trucks.

I've never driven a heavily loaded vehicle with leaf springs that handled better than (usually) air bagged, and in some cases coiler(my RRC back in the day).

My main experience of this has been between Isuzu and Fuso(air bagged) and Hino(crapola leafys).
The monumental sidestepping that the Hinos' all had was never an issue in the Isuzu/Fuso's.

My last vehicle with leafs was my Rodeo ute .. and quite simply never again .. ever, will I own a leaf sprung vehicle.

Funniest experience on the difference between the two types was long ago in my RRC driving around Lake Mungo.
Been so many times I can't remember the specifics of the road/location. Was a very wide and badly corrugated dirt road, and following an XD Falcon, him doing about 20-30k/h visibly sidestepping madly all over the place.
Me and missus in RRC camping for a week or so out that way, RRC loaded food/water, quite a bit of rear end sag(those load levellers were useless).
But I could easily maintain 60k/h on the road without breaking a sweat(handling wise) .. just the noise(drumming/pounding) limited speed on this road.
Once we got past the badly corrugated section XD came past me(at 60) and him doing maybe 80 or so.

[rick130]

Sorry Martin but you're are really wrong here.

Leaf Patrols crack the chassis at the hanger, as do many others.

Coils can be wound at any rate you want.
The 130 is rated at 1300kg payload and carries it easily.
I'm not going to get into suspension design here, I just can't be arsed.
A well designed coil rear end is every bit as capable as a leaf rear for load carrying, but a leafer rear is a bucket load cheaper to design and make.
That's it.

[AK83]

Well no I don't drive a truck. I am a dentist...

Leaf springs will provide more stability when towing. Simply because it allow few directions of movement, mostlt vertical. .....

The issue with those few directions is that the more important one(fore/aft) which allows toe movements from the rear axle is the one that is totally random.

as an example, if the RHS wheel hits a bump, the movement it causes on it's shackle and on the LHS is random so you get a lot more rear end steering.
The quality and condition of the dampers is then much more important in a leaf system, than in an equivalently sprung(in terms of spring rate) coiler.

And leaf springs by design aren't variable rate. Multi leaf types can be, but they have their own issues if not properly designed too.
Coils are just as easily designed to be variable rate, and (say) like a Unimog can have spring in spring type design for light/heavy loading conditions.

Like Rick says, leafs only advantage in terms of use for wide variances in loads is that they are cheap. No other advantage over coils, or air bags, which are a type of coil spring anyhow.

About the only other advantage that I can think of with leaves over coils could also be the simple and easy nature of lifting the body ride height too.
Had to do that to dad's Exploder a little while back.
Rear leaves had sagged badly(maybe over an inch or more). Can not worth the effort to replace leaves, so longer shackles were bought, replaced very easily and ride height restored to an appropriate level.

I also doubt the comment re spreading the load more evenly on the chassis too. For sure they have more points of connection too the chassis, but in every case I've ever seen, those two points are always a much smaller surface(in total) area than the larger area that a coil spring is anchored too at the chassis.
As a bit of a case in point on that topic, I've read many more horror stories of leaf sprung utes cracking chassis, usually when towing, than with coil sprung vehicles.

[DiscoMick]

Good report in the latest Pat Callinan magazine about a bloke from Cairns who converted his 79 to the wider track rear coil suspension, which wasn't cheap, but he reckons its far superior to standard.

[Zeros]

Good report in the latest Pat Callinan magazine about a bloke from Cairns who converted his 79 to the wider track rear coil suspension, which wasn't cheap, but he reckons its far superior to standard.

Yup as per my post#4 in this thread 😊 love Defender coils.

[rangieman]

Sorry Martin but you're are really wrong here.

Leaf Patrols crack the chassis at the hanger, as do many others.

Coils can be wound at any rate you want.
The 130 is rated at 1300kg payload and carries it easily.
I'm not going to get into suspension design here, I just can't be arsed.
A well designed coil rear end is every bit as capable as a leaf rear for load carrying, but a leafer rear is a bucket load cheaper to design and make.
That's it.
A dentist with a sideline in rear suspension engineering:Rolling:

[AndyG]

Im no expert, but, at home I have a Puma, at work in PNG i have a 76 6 cylinder toyo troopie, i spend 99% of my time in these two vehicles, all types of loads and roads, The puma is just so much better. And lets not even start on seating

[Zeros]

Im no expert, but, at home I have a Puma, at work in PNG i have a 76 6 cylinder toyo troopie, i spend 99% of my time in these two vehicles, all types of loads and roads, The puma is just so much better. And lets not even start on seating

Torally agree AndyG. For the past 20 years I’ve driven either 70 series Tojos for work or my Defender. Whoever thinks the Defender iis a dinosaur in comparison hasn’t really driven a Defender. ...and don’t get me started on seating position either!

[weeds]

Sooo what would the ratio of 70 series to defender on the road??

10:1 probably way more

I think that paints a picture of land rovers place in the market.

We are on a Land Rover forum off course the landy is the duct guts

In a cruiser forum cruisers are the duck guts.

When we spend a lot of money on our daily drives we tend to be a little bit biased toward our purchase.

[Zeros]

Sooo what would the ratio of 70 series to defender on the road??

10:1 probably way more

I think that paints a picture of land rovers place in the market.

We are on a Land Rover forum off course the landy is the duct guts

In a cruiser forum cruisers are the duck guts.

When we spend a lot of money on our daily drives we tend to be a little bit biased toward our purchase.


No bias here at all actually. I was driving Tojos for 10 years before getting my first Defender. I actually went looking for an 80 series, test drove one, then chanced apon my Defender. Took it for a drive and was immediately impressed compared to the 80 series I’d driven earlier that day and all the troopies I’d driven for work. I bought it on the spot. ...don’t get me started on why it’s better! (It was also $12k less expensive! for same year/same kms).

Like many things in life, most people follow like sheep. They take the usual road over the unusual road, value advertising and perceived ‘reliability’ over character and capability. When I drove my first Defender I was impressed and surprised how much better it was and I couldn’t understand the ridiculous bias toward Toyota. ...I went my own way.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, I've had this conversation with my BIL, whose family has two 80s. They need huge on-going maintenance, partly because of their age of course. He makes jokes about me fitting accessories to mine, but overlooks how many important things have needed fixing on the 80s.

[JDNSW]

As a perhaps relevant comment here - I got a pink slip for my County this morning. I was telling the mechanic what had happened to it since he last saw it a year ago - one of the things was a new indicator/flasher/horn switch. He said "can you actually get parts for it? Its thirty two years old!"

As I pointed out to him, there are no issues with most parts for it. I wonder what the situation is with similar aged Toyotas?

[Zeros]

....Very good point JD, especially in the context of the misleading comment: 'how many Toyota's are on the road compared to Land Rovers'. ...It should be, 'how many Land Rovers are STILL on the road, compared to Toyota's that have rusted away'. ...for example, I reckon I see just as many 20 year old Defenders as 80 series on the road - which is significant, considering how many more 80 series there would have been from new and how few are still running around.

[DiscoMick]

Isn't there a claim that about two-thirds of all LRs ever built are still pootling about?

[weeds]

Isn't there a claim that about two-thirds of all LRs ever built are still pootling about?

According to Land Rover owners....

[scarry]

A good 80 series is certainly worth its dollars,compared with an equivalent Disco,there is no comparison.

As does the 100 series.

But then there are Defenders,but they are in a different class.

[Homestar]

Isn't there a claim that about two-thirds of all LRs ever built are still pootling about?

I think it goes something like ‘Two thirds of all Land Rovers are still on the road - the other third made it home.’

[ozscott]

A good 80 series is certainly worth its dollars,compared with an equivalent Disco,there is no comparison.

As does the 100 series.

But then there are Defenders,but they are in a different class.....ooohhh...them there is fighting words. I have spent a fair bit of time in both. I am comfortable working on my d2 and slightly modded I would never give it up for an 80 just far better in terms of ride comfort and offroad comfort. The d2 petrol is just so well sorted once an inline cool thermostat is used too. Cheers

[SBD4]

an update:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD6TWhDiX-U

[DiscoMick]

Spelling Nazi: should be 'warranties' plural or 'warranty's' possessive, I believe.

[Zeros]

Interestingly at around 10.10 in this video Ronny Dahl talks about his disc rotors being worn - but this is after 120,000km!

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS44ZrqvOIE)

Ronny Dahl's Tojo videos are honest and informative - and he really uses the vehicle. He's broken both diffs, transfer case and a rear axle. As well as a few other parts such as alternator, etc. He's also changed the full rear axle to address the width variation.

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7wlQFcJ5ts)

Clearly Tojo's need just as much maintenance and new parts as Defenders.

[Arch]

He flogs that vehicle - have you seen the video where he breaks rear end in the Flinders?

Ronny openly admits that his LC79 is treated like a mine vehicle. If you note the speeds he travelled across the Madigan, towing a trailer, you will see why he breaks bits.

Should note too that his front end cracked due to incorrect suspension fitted.

I'm losing interest in Ronny as he doesn't ever talk about the legalities of his vehicle or any of the modified vehicles he reviews. Also now that he's towing a trailer everywhere... well I think I'm about to unsubscribe.

I have no time for 4XOverland - he's only chasing sponsorship $$.

[Vern]

Rovercare on here broke his front diff twice, if not 3 times, said its more pathetic than an 80 series front. He ended up putting a patrol hybrid diff up front.