JLR Survey 50% of Australian Millennials want Electric over ICE

[goingbush]

No Surprise to me. (But I no longer hold any hope of JLR producing any vehicle I'd want to buy so its a moot point for me)

Half of all millennials would like to buy an electric car, says Jaguar | The Driven (https://thedriven.io/2018/11/02/half-of-all-millennials-would-like-to-buy-an-electric-car-says-jaguar/?fbclid=IwAR2mN_uezEnx3hjpB7EAFVec1RAZ5AXf9LzxWVHw zNx4T6uu1gBQj4NqDhQ)

[PhilipA]

BUT BUT!
They would not be able to afford Smashed Avo breakfasts AND an EV let alone a house.
I guess they could live in their 100K EV.
I will expect this to cause yet another round of "it's not fair"

Regards Philip A

[goingbush]

Why is it that when I first got my license I had to make do with a $300 XL Falcon & make it roadworthy with parts salvaged from the local tip. When I first left home had a share rental house & rented or second hand whitegoods etc.

Nowdays when Milennials leave the nest they have new houses , new cars & furniture specced higher than I do now. Don't worry they will be driving New EV's without sacrificing their cafe late .

[trog]

Millennials not interested in ice , I thought this would be good news . This on a quick view may mean they aren’t interested in the drug . But really if they don’t want a fossil fuel burner , there could be more for those that do .

[bsperka]

I'd prefer an electric vehicle over an ICE vehicle as well. Price point is still too high in AU, infrastructure is still too sparse. Will the market start addressing these in the next 2 years? Should be.

[biggin]

If it’s economically viable, the market definitely will.
However, I suspect it isn’t. But, the government will find a lazy few billion of your dollars to throw at it anyway, just to pretend they’ve made a difference to all our lives.

[DiscoMick]

I believe the shift to electric vehicles will happen faster than us old blokes expect. After all, who predicted the rise of the smartphone?
JLR is lagging behind on the electric shift, and needs to catch up fast if it wants to keep growing.

[weeds]

I'd prefer an electric vehicle over an ICE vehicle as well. Price point is still too high in AU, infrastructure is still too sparse. Will the market start addressing these in the next 2 years? Should be.

I assume by sparse you mean longer distance traveling???

I’m seeing the light for around town........car

More and more fast chargers are becoming available but I wonder how often you can use them I.e. will using them every charge decrease the life of battery.

[bsperka]

I assume by sparse you mean longer distance traveling???

I’m seeing the light for around town........car

More and more fast chargers are becoming available but I wonder how often you can use them I.e. will using them every charge decrease the life of battery.The scale required is still to be addressed. A couple of charging locations with a couple of chargers isn't going to work when the take up is more than a few percent. Especially if a quick charge takes 10 to 15 minutes. The motoring associations have had mobile quick chargers for some years to assist their members but more will be required. Etc.

[goingbush]

Realistically 80% of EV owners will never need to use public chargers or fast chargers, Other than for long distance driving .

If you could fill your ICE car overnight at home, drip filling the fuel tank with petrol over 8 hours for free (or for $4.00 / 100km if you don't have free rooftop petrol generators ) and had a 300km range, would you ever need to go to a petrol station ?.


Occasional Fast charging does not harm Lithium batteries , overcharging & over discharging does , but should never happen with BMS. just as an example my LiFePo4 cells (5 year old tech) are 200Ah that are specced ( 3000 charge cycles) at 2C charge = 400Amp & 3C discharge 600Amp . I only ever charge at home plugged into a 15Amp power point , the on board charger is 3.3kw and charges the cells at 21.5Amp , takes approx 6 -8 hours , at 400Amp (Direct DC) fast charge it would take about 20 mins . Any faster would not be healthy for the cells. Lower charge rates & DOD drastically increases battery life to 10,000 cycles . 10,000 x 100km = 1,000,000km , from one battery if babied or 3000x100km = 300,000km if regular fast charged within spec. Thats with 5 year old LiFePo4 tech, and things are way better now .

[Rextheute]

Millennials won’t need either - they aren’t really even interested in getting their drivers licence .

Flow on affects will be , motor vehicle taxes ( fuel excise ) , insurance , accessories add ons - paint protection and the like .

I would buy an electric car though .

Except at present the range issue bugs me , but a Camry Hybrid would tempt - can tow a little bit , not my caravan or camper ....

So , do I stick with my Carbon Neutral Valiant @ 50 yrs old . It owes the planet nothing , just need ground up dinosaurs to run and lubricate .

Any Hoo , I’m off to ride my E-mtb in the Wombat Forest !

[ramblingboy42]

whats an mtb?

[bee utey]

whats an mtb?

It's a species of bicycle....

[Zeros]

I’m looking forward to owning an EV, but I’d prefer a diesel hybrid if possible. Hopefully that’s what new Defender might be?

EV’s will become the norm more quickly than we can imagine.

[JDNSW]

I would like an EV - but I have no confidence that I will be able to afford one that is suitable in my remaining years as a driver.

While I expect EVs to gradually become more popular, I think the estimates of "a few years" to become a serious sales competitor are wildly optimistic. Something like twenty years is more like it, unless mandated for political reasons, which seems unlikely.

The technical issues of producing viable EVs seem to have been solved, but there remains the really major issue - cost. The problem they have here is that they are competing with ICE cars which not only have 120 years of research behind them, but many decades of experience that has built up detailed knowledge of how to build them. And the detailed knowledge of how to build cars is why cars today are so much cheaper in real terms than they were in the past.

While some of the parts of the EV are the same or similar to those in a conventional car, the package is sufficiently different that we can expect quite some time before there is a comparable body of knowledge.

This is the reason existing car manufacturers have been reluctant to build EVs - they know from horrible experience that major design changes are very expensive, not just in up front expenditure, but in the often unpredictable disruption to their manufacturing.

And the same sort of issue applies all down the line to selling and maintaining them.

It is for these reasons that new companies (such as Tesla) stand a good chance of being successful. Although they face the same challenges, they are not handicapped by having to fit in with an existing manufacturing system - but they have to put up the capital now to manufacture, while the existing manufacture can use at least some of the infrastructure that has already been written down.

For these reasons I do not expect to see affordable EVs any time soon, and until they are affordable, they are not going to be bought in significant numbers, no matter how little they cost to run!

[DiscoMick]

Battery costs are coming down rapidly as manufacturing increases. Servos will either install more EV chargers or go broke. Most EVscwill be charged at home anyway, using solar stored in batteries and drawn down at night. The cars battery pack, such as the new Nissan Leaf's 40kw pack, will combine with a typical 6 kW house battery. Once the car is charged, it will help to power the house at night.

[Zeros]

I would like an EV - but I have no confidence that I will be able to afford one that is suitable in my remaining years as a driver.

While I expect EVs to gradually become more popular, I think the estimates of "a few years" to become a serious sales competitor are wildly optimistic. Something like twenty years is more like it, unless mandated for political reasons, which seems unlikely.

The technical issues of producing viable EVs seem to have been solved, but there remains the really major issue - cost. The problem they have here is that they are competing with ICE cars which not only have 120 years of research behind them, but many decades of experience that has built up detailed knowledge of how to build them. And the detailed knowledge of how to build cars is why cars today are so much cheaper in real terms than they were in the past.

While some of the parts of the EV are the same or similar to those in a conventional car, the package is sufficiently different that we can expect quite some time before there is a comparable body of knowledge.

This is the reason existing car manufacturers have been reluctant to build EVs - they know from horrible experience that major design changes are very expensive, not just in up front expenditure, but in the often unpredictable disruption to their manufacturing.

And the same sort of issue applies all down the line to selling and maintaining them.

It is for these reasons that new companies (such as Tesla) stand a good chance of being successful. Although they face the same challenges, they are not handicapped by having to fit in with an existing manufacturing system - but they have to put up the capital now to manufacture, while the existing manufacture can use at least some of the infrastructure that has already been written down.

For these reasons I do not expect to see affordable EVs any time soon, and until they are affordable, they are not going to be bought in significant numbers, no matter how little they cost to run!

All good thinking JD, but I reckon it will happen faster than that.

JLR have stated that all vehicles will be EV or hybrid after 2020. Jaguar Land Rover commits to all vehicles being electric or hybrid from 2020 | The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/url-jaguar-land-rover-electric-hybrid-cars-vehicles-2020-a7933681.html)

Toyota are also about to release many more hybrid models. Etc...

The hybrid EV-ICE coss-over makes real sense now. Full EV will take a bit longer, but tech take up with the next generations is second nature now.

Us old fogeys just need to get out of the way! 😊

But I do agree affordability may be an issue, especially for full-size 4x4’s (not that this is limited to EV’s!). ...this is one reason I’m holding onto my Puma Defender instead of cashing in. I paid under $50K new and saw it as a long term investment. It might be worth $60K now?, but I doubt the next Defender will be priced under $75K.

[austastar]

Hi,
Looking at vehicle costs vs an average yearly wage seems to put the cheapest EV, Nissan Leaf at around $50k today, about the same price as a 1960's Mini or VW Beetle at £1k costing again about a year's wage.
So cars today are really quite cheap by comparison.
Cheers

[Zeros]

Hi,
Looking at vehicle costs vs an average yearly wage seems to put the cheapest EV, Nissan Leaf at around $50k today, about the same price as a 1960's Mini or VW Beetle at £1k costing again about a year's wage.
So cars today are really quite cheap by comparison.
Cheers

Would be interesting to compare all other basic living costs in Australia with 1960’s.

[PhilipA]

Toyota are also about to release many more hybrid models. Etc..

.



But the question is "Will they sell?" eg
Prius have been an abject failure in Australia.

At the end of the day it will be sales that determine their success or failure.

Inner City Virtue Signalers (ICVS) are only about 5-10% of the population so once every Inner City Virtue Signaler (ICVS) has one which is unlikely Millennials will be next. So if you call a Millennial someone who is 18 or less right now, how long will it be before they can afford to buy a minimum 50K car and that is for the most basic thing. ( how is that ? probably more accurate than the colour anyway)

Considering that the most popular car in Australia right now is a Hilux ute, how many Hilux ute buyers will buy EVs?
If it can tow 3000Kg maybe , but from what I have seen so far very few EVs can tow much at all and of course for how far?.
I think Hybrids are far more likely to succeed in sales volume in Australia , and most manufacturers seem to be hedging their bets with hybrids rather than only EVs. Eg the new Audi A8 which Jeremy Clarkson just roundly condemned for its non linear driving experience. (Weekend Australian)
Regards Philip A
ICVS probably more accurate than colour anyway

[JDNSW]

Hi,
Looking at vehicle costs vs an average yearly wage seems to put the cheapest EV, Nissan Leaf at around $50k today, about the same price as a 1960's Mini or VW Beetle at £1k costing again about a year's wage.
So cars today are really quite cheap by comparison.
Cheers

So is just about every other manufactured item.

No matter how you look at it, the standard of living in Australia today is vastly higher than it was in the 1960s, no matter how you look at it. A large part of this is technical and scientific developments, but also a large part is doing things more efficiently because they are done on a larger scale. This has happened largely through increased trade.

[bee utey]

.


But the question is "Will they sell?" eg
Prius have been an abject failure in Australia.



Prius are doing OK seeing that they are a niche vehicle suited more to cities than the country.

Toyota Prius sales reach 20,000 in Australia | Behind the Wheel (https://behindthewheel.com.au/toyota-prius-sales-reach-20000-australia/)

As for the rest of your post I suggest you scrub the political comment before the mods see it. [smilebigeye]

[DiscoMick]

Don't forget the Camry and Corolla can also be had as hybrids, as can the Mitsui Out lander, all solid sellers.

[PhilipA]

Prius are doing OK seeing that they are a niche vehicle suited more to cities than the country.


By definition hybrids are more suitable for the city as in the country the electric motor is hardly used and the driver relies on the mostly wimpy ICE. As the fuel economy is the whole point of hybrids the motor is usually downsized to give better economy. In the city the electric motor is used much more so better economy. This will also affect towing ability.

This was the major gripe by Clarkson about the Q8 which went from a nice ICE V8 to a V6 with electric motor. His specific gripe was put the foot down and nothing , nothing, until put down further then wham!

I can see EVs being popular in Europe where a Golf is about the biggest high volume car and of course diesels banned from cities etc . But Australia is different in many ways.

Regards Philip A
I had a look at the specs of the Outlander . On a trip when the battery is flat , progress would be pretty slow.

Tare 2370Kg
The motor has 87Kw , 1 less than a Honda Jazz. The towing capacity is 1500Kg which is about half of the recent Gin palace weights.
Maximum towing capacity with trailer brakes (kg)
1500


Maximum towing capacity without trailer brakes (kg)



750

[JDNSW]

Interestingly, a relative of mine has just replaced her hybrid Camry with a RAV4 - pretty sure it is not a hybrid. The Camry was a writeoff after the third roo strike in a year; the RAV4 has a roo bar. I don't think they make them for the Camry. Or, for that matter, any hybrid or EV.

[goingbush]

Interestingly, a relative of mine has just replaced her hybrid Camry with a RAV4 - pretty sure it is not a hybrid. The Camry was a writeoff after the third roo strike in a year; the RAV4 has a roo bar. I don't think they make them for the
Camry. Or, for that matter, any hybrid or EV.

Not in Aust till 2019 , but as usual already sold everywhere else

2018 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid Crossover | Let’s redefine what a hybrid can be. (https://www.toyota.com/rav4hybrid/)

[V8Ian]

Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile of those things has never been discussed. All you ever heard was the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity to run it.

Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power things yet they’re being shoved down our throats. Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper.

A home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla, each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.

This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load.

So as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive, new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system!

This latter "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS...!' and a shrug.

It’s enlightening.

Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.
It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours.

In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

WOW ....................

Well, here is something to think about.....!

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned, so I looked up what I pay for electricity.

I pay approximately $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery.

$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery.

Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile.

The gasoline powered car costs about $20,000 while the Volt costs $46,000-plus.

So the American Government wants loyal Americans not to do the math, but simply pay three times as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.

[DiscoMick]

Interesting points. I read that the 40kw Nissan Leaf costs about $4 to recharge, depending on power prices, for an official range of 270km in Australia or 350 in Europe.

[trog]

Four dollars to go to work and back for a week. Certainly cheaper than what I pay now for petrol , and what Michele pays for her myki each week

[goingbush]

You reading into anti -EV propaganda.


Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile of those things has never been discussed. All you ever heard was the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity to run it.


seriously !




Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power things yet they’re being shoved down our throats. Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper.

Hmm so Internal combustion is more efficient than Electricity is it ?




A home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla, each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.

You can charge a Tesla from a 15 Amp power point at home actually, (or any caravan park)





Tesla Charging Options for Australia (https://www.teslaowners.org.au/charging)





This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load.

So as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive, new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system!

This latter "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS...!' and a shrug.

It’s enlightening.

Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.
It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours.

In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

WOW ....................

Well, here is something to think about.....!

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned, so I looked up what I pay for electricity.

I pay approximately $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery.

$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery.

Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile.

The gasoline powered car costs about $20,000 while the Volt costs $46,000-plus.

So the American Government wants loyal Americans not to do the math, but simply pay three times as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country.

V8 Ian, thats simply not correct.


Who pays $1.16 per Kwh ?? You are a ****ing idiot if you do.
The average cost per kwh by state as of Sept 2018 =
QLD 27.6 Vic 28.24 NSW 33.11 SA 42.88 c/kwh

from .. Electricity Costs Per kWh | QLD, SA, VIC, NSW Rates – Canstar Blue (https://www.canstarblue.com.au/electricity/electricity-costs-kwh/)

Heres some true life Facts .

A tesla Model S averages 20kwh per 100km

My DIY inefficient LandRover conversion averages 28kwh per 100km verified by GPS speedo & digital Kwh hour on my sub board that feeds the charger, so charger losses are included.

Lets ignore the fact that My 5Kw Solar more than covers the cost of charging my EV , and Ive now driven 5000km absolutely free.

My latest AGL bill has my cost at 24.8c kwh x 28 = $6.72 per 100km = $0.067 , yes 6.7 cents per km = 10c per mile . Same as your mythical small fuel efficient petrol car in the example above which you are paying $3.19 per US gallon , (BTW an Australian fuel price of $1.65 per Litre equates to $AU 6.60 per US Gallon so your example is really costing Au 20c per mile )

[bee utey]

I can see EVs being popular in Europe where a Golf is about the biggest high volume car and of course diesels banned from cities etc . But Australia is different in many ways.

Possibly, but a large number of Oz commuters would be perfectly happy with an EV they could charge at home. The "second car", say a traditional 4WD, is the one they do "trips to the country" in.

[bee utey]

V8Ian (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/266242-jlr-survey-50-australian-millennials-want-electric-over-ice-post2854344.html#post2854344), you should be ashamed of yourself posting copy-pasted Yankee hate screeds without a link to the source.

[PhilipA]

The "second car", say a traditional 4WD, is the one they do "trips to the country" in.

So why have the masses not adopted Prius? 20000 sold in about 10 years and lots of those sold to Government departments to show their virtue. AFAIK , Toyota don't even fit lithium batteries to Australian Prius as I read that the new model when introduced remained with NiCad, presumable to ration the lithiums to higher value markets.
I personally would welcome an EV for a reasonable price say $20K which has a conservative range in traffic on a hot day of at least 300Km.
But it isn't going to happen in my lifetime.
Regards Philip A

[goingbush]

<snip>
I personally would welcome an EV for a reasonable price say $20K which has a conservative range in traffic on a hot day of at least 300Km.
But it isn't going to happen in my lifetime.
Regards Philip A

its happening now in China & India , your probably right it wont happen here any time soon , due to Govt ineptness & the Marketing ******* that load cars up with useless crap gadgets & creature comforts that no one actually needs . (well elitists think they need it but in reality they just want it)

[bee utey]

So why have the masses not adopted Prius? 20000 sold in about 10 years and lots of those sold to Government departments to show their virtue. AFAIK , Toyota don't even fit lithium batteries to Australian Prius as I read that the new model when introduced remained with NiCad, presumable to ration the lithiums to higher value markets.
I personally would welcome an EV for a reasonable price say $20K which has a conservative range in traffic on a hot day of at least 300Km.
But it isn't going to happen in my lifetime.
Regards Philip A

Toyota never offered the plug in version of the Prius here. And of course partly due to VW lying through their teeth about their "clean diesel technology" many people weighed the Prius against the opposition and found it wanting. So now the "clean diesel" mirage has been busted people will be looking for cleaner, cheap to run small vehicles to commute in. And that may well be plug in vehicles of various brands, if the major manufacturers can be bothered importing them. First these vehicles will be sold in countries actively promoting cleaner transport, then when they've satisfied those markets they'll filter through to Australia. But come they will.

Funny how Prius sales have risen sharply since Dieselgate hit the fan, eh?

[bee utey]

More reading on the screed posted below

Total B.S.! | Tesla Motors Club (https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/total-b-s.94102/)

Eric Bolling - ALERT! there is an email circulating the... | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/EricBolling/posts/10150567380521277)

It seems to be one of those notorious emails that run around from time to time, spreading misinformation.

[goingbush]

I thought we'd moved on from here, but it seems pertinent to repost this video


https://youtu.be/YfTiRNzbSko

[rar110]

Increased use of electric driverless cars (available on demand via an app) will change the whole ownership, private transport, car dealership and maintenance picture in about two generations.

Few people will have a licence or own/buy a car, home garages will become redundant, fuel stations will reduce in number, cars will require less servicing, and servicing will be more centralised. So local mechanic and tyre shops will disappear. Collisions will be reduced (not eradicated) so repair shops will reduce in number.

Buying/owning a new ICE vehicle will become more expensive.

Another new technology disruption is just around the corner. But electric cars are not new. I have a Brisbane news paper article I found under floor coverings when renovating which was from the 60s about a then old car converted to electric with a solar panel.

[DiscoMick]

Apart from Utes, I think it is small cars such as the Mazda 3 which dominate sales now. They are prime candidates to go EV.

[goingbush]

Increased use of electric driverless cars (available on demand via an app) will change the whole ownership, private transport, car dealership and maintenance picture in about two generations.

Few people will have a licence or own/buy a car, home garages will become redundant, fuel stations will reduce in number, cars will require less servicing, and servicing will be more centralised. So local mechanic and tyre shops will disappear. Collisions will be reduced (not eradicated) so repair shops will reduce in number.

Buying/owning a new ICE vehicle will become more expensive.

Another new technology disruption is just around the corner. But electric cars are not new. I have a Brisbane news paper article I found under floor coverings when renovating which was from the 60s about a then old car converted to electric with a solar panel.

Agreed but Im in 2 minds about Autonomy, I think its going to be a way off yet, maybe not the way that millennial are not interested in cars ownership or needing licenses .

I'd genuinely like to see a scan /photo of that article , True Electric cars are not new , there were more Electric cars than ICE cars for the first 15 years of the 20th century .

[goingbush]

rar110 ... just what you were saying.

This is an old article too, check that file photo from 2013 , thats why China is now the world leader in EV's

Death spiral for cars. By 2030, you probably won’t own one | RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/death-spiral-for-cars-by-2030-you-probably-wont-own-one-93626/)

[goingbush]

V8Ian, and any other doubting Thomas ,

Read & Understand . These are real life numbers , no made up bull**** . (If you want evidence for where the numbers come from I can provide it)




At 80% Depth of Discharge LFP batteries are good for 3000 charge cycles .
Practical distance = 80km per charge 80x3000 = 240,000 km divided by $22,000 = total conversion cost of $.09 per km .


Charging from 5kw PV system , Car has 3.3kw onboard charger , Solar Charging = free
Charging from Tesla Destination chargers = free


No Solar ? .... Charging from 15A GPO @ $0.25c kwh (average Australian Electricity tariff) x 28kwh per 100km = $.07 per km


Todays average petrol price $ 1.60 L
Guesstimate generous petrol economy 15L /100km 15x1.60 = $24.00 per 100km = $.24 per km


Petrol cost over 100,000km = $24,000 , theres your EV conversion paid for.


Petrol cost over 240,000 km = $57,600 at todays price which is set to rise as battery tech develops & lithium price decreases


With the Internal Combustion engine you'll be looking to get a rebuild at 240,000km & probably cost another $10,000


At 240,000km existing batteries will be starting to degrade, $10,000 at todays prices (still ahead) but there will be new better / cheaper tech by then.


On top of that you have zero servicing costs (other than gear oil brakes / tyres etc) Brake wear is reduced due to regen braking , no exhaust or cooling system maintenance.

EDIT, I can see your going to call this BS because its a home made $22,000 EV

OK apply same figures to a $57,000 Factory EV , using my 28kwh/100km . If you use solar it will pay itself off in 240,000km. But it will be sooner because factory EV's are more efficient, a Nissan Leaf gets 18kwh /100km , Tesla Model-S 20kwh/100km . And don't forget to think that petrol prices are going to keep increasing , so it will probably pay for itself in 150-180,000 km .

[gavinwibrow]

EDIT, I can see your going to call this BS because its a home made $22,000 EV.

OK apply same figures to a $57,000 Factory EV , using my 28kwh/100km . If you use solar it will pay itself off in 240,000km. But it will be sooner because factory EV's are more efficient, a Nissan Leaf gets 18kwh /100km , Tesla Model-S 20kwh/100km . And don't forget to think that petrol prices are going to keep increasing , so it will probably pay for itself in 150-180,000 km .


AND - if you don't like the purchase prices of the current crop of EVs, take your choice of a trusty old LR and convert it to EV - probably cheaper than buying a new one. And every day the options increase and the prices decrease.

As stated here by many many times, EVs won't work for every situation, but would satisfy many.

Goingbush - good on you, I for one amongst many am terribly impressed with your efforts and your magnificent and detailed posting here.

Now, when can I start converting the LSE?[bigwhistle]

[gavinwibrow]

Deleted, double post

[goingbush]

AND - if you don't like the purchase prices of the current crop of EVs, take your choice of a trusty old LR and convert it to EV - probably cheaper than buying a new one. And every day the options increase and the prices decrease.

As stated here by many many times, EVs won't work for every situation, but would satisfy many.

Goingbush - good on you, I for one amongst many am terribly impressed with your efforts and your magnificent and detailed posting here.

Now, when can I start converting the LSE?[bigwhistle]


Thank You.

One thing to bear in mind, Not that I watch Top Gear or take any notice of that Jeremy Clarkson moron, I did see a quote somewhere that he hates EV's because the "performance is not Linear ".

From that I take it he means they go like **** of a shovel when the battery fully charged, & after 50% depletion acceleration drops off . True if you drive like a dickwad . If I accelerate flat out in 3rd from a stop when battery is about 50% I get a low battery (20%) alarm when I hit about 70kmh , back off & its back to 50% . But can still accelerate to 100kmh but just not at full throttle, That is 'non linear'


Same Applies in a petrol car really, but to a lesser extent , if your down to 1/4 tank and you've got 100km to the next petrol station your going to start driving really carefully ( ah so you do get Range Anxiety in a petrol car too)

[bee utey]

An interesting article from the UK...

A day in the life of a Tesla supercharger | Autocar (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/day-life-tesla-supercharger?page=1)

[Jojo]

Interesting discussion... I feel JLR will have to speed up in order not to miss the plot completely. On the other hand, they are at least attempting to join the bandwagon. So far, they are one only three trying to give Tesla a match:
Jaguar I-PACE | Our First All-Electric Car | Jaguar (https://www.jaguar.com/jaguar-range/i-pace/index.html)
(The other ones being Audi and Mercedes). They will have to do much more and not only provide a token vehicle. All of the three contenders are trailing behind Tesla big time, which is not surprising as Tesla is several years in advance. I would not swap my Tesla for any of these (nor would I swap my Land rovers for anything else...) LR had an all-electric Defender at one of their properties a few years ago, supposedly for testing purposes. I wonder what has become of it?
Apart from all the figures and theoretical approaches, electrical vehicles really have the edge even in real life. I was sceptical myself to start with but now there's no looking back. Just waiting for my all-electric Series truck...

[PhilipA]

Petrol cost over 100,000km = $24,000 , theres your EV conversion paid for.

Er haven't you not included replacement cost of batteries after 8-10 years?

In fact AFAIR , you have already had to replace some batteries.
if you are talking Tesla, there are also pretty frequent brake replacements and also failures of batteries eg the 400KK article was on its third set of batteries at about $50k each.

Regards Philip A

[DiscoMick]

Also Nissan. The Leaf is the world's best-selling EV.

[goingbush]

Er haven't you not included replacement cost of batteries after 8-10 years?

In fact AFAIR , you have already had to replace some batteries.
if you are talking Tesla, there are also pretty frequent brake replacements and also failures of batteries eg the 400KK article was on its third set of batteries at about $50k each.

Regards Philip A

True I had a faulty cell which was replaced under warranty , I paid for 4 x more cells which I thought were faulty but it turns out I did not bottom balance them correctly prior to install. There is no defending the 400km Tesla Limo driver who constantly fast charged to full capacity against all advice. Lithiums don't like constant 100% DOD , I have mine set for 80% DOD , so I also have a 20% reserve for emergencies if you like , the odd 100% wont do too much harm

Philip, as for me not including replacement cost of batteries after 8-10 years , if you read my post that you quoted from again



At 80% Depth of Discharge LFP batteries are good for 3000 charge cycles .
Practical distance = 80km per charge 80x3000 = 240,000 km divided by $22,000 = total conversion cost of $.09 per km .


Charging from 5kw PV system , Car has 3.3kw onboard charger , Solar Charging = free
Charging from Tesla Destination chargers = free


No Solar ? .... Charging from 15A GPO @ $0.25c kwh (average Australian Electricity tariff) x 28kwh per 100km = $.07 per km


Todays average petrol price $ 1.60 L
Guesstimate generous petrol economy 15L /100km 15x1.60 = $24.00 per 100km = $.24 per km


Petrol cost over 100,000km = $24,000 , theres your EV conversion paid for.


Petrol cost over 240,000 km = $57,600 at todays price which is set to rise as battery tech develops & lithium price decreases


With the Internal Combustion engine you'll be looking to get a rebuild at 240,000km & probably cost another $10,000


At 240,000km existing batteries will be starting to degrade, $10,000 at todays prices (still ahead) but there will be new better / cheaper tech by then.

[Jojo]

Er haven't you not included replacement cost of batteries after 8-10 years?

In fact AFAIR , you have already had to replace some batteries.
if you are talking Tesla, there are also pretty frequent brake replacements and also failures of batteries eg the 400KK article was on its third set of batteries at about $50k each.

Regards Philip A

Well, speaking from my very own experience, brakes aren't an issue as they are rarely needed. Slowing down in an electric vehicle is mostly done by means of using the 'motor brake', charging the batteries at the same time. Tesla offers an 8 years unlimited warranty on battery and all components, but there are not many having troubles with theirs. My vehicle's battery has lost ca 1% of its capacity after 31/2 years and about 150k kms. And, btw, haven't had any need to change brake pads or discs yet [bigsmile1].

[Zeros]

Well, speaking from my very own experience, brakes aren't an issue as they are rarely needed. Slowing down in an electric vehicle is mostly done by means of using the 'motor brake', charging the batteries at the same time. Tesla offers an 8 years unlimited warranty on battery and all components, but there are not many having troubles with theirs. My vehicle's battery has lost ca 1% of its capacity after 31/2 years and about 150k kms. And, btw, haven't had any need to change brake pads or discs yet [bigsmile1].

So you have a Tesla, a Defender and a Discovery? Which do you like driving the most? [bigwhistle]

[goingbush]

Also Nissan. The Leaf is the world's best-selling EV.


And luckily for people wanting to convert old LandRovers to EV there will soon be a bountiful supply of Salvage Leafs . Their Motor has a splined output shaft & can easily be adapted to a Transfer Case or Existing gearbox.

80kW and 280 Nm as standard, but they are under rated, no problem driving them at 100kW and they have been driven at 200kW for short bursts. ( as a comparison my EV conversion motor is a meagre 66kw 155Nm)

Aftermarket controller boards are available for the Leaf Motor which removes the need for the BCU CAN stuff & Leaf Battery packs are already being used in DIY EV's

[Zeros]

And luckily for people wanting to convert old LandRovers to EV there will soon be a bountiful supply of Salvage Leafs . Their Motor has a splined output shaft & can easily be adapted to a Transfer Case or Existing gearbox.

80kW and 280 Nm as standard, but they are under rated, no problem driving them at 100kW and they have been driven at 200kW for short bursts. ( as a comparison my EV conversion motor is a meagre 66kw 155Nm)

Aftermarket controller boards are available for the Leaf Motor which removes the need for the BCU CAN stuff & Leaf Battery packs are already being used in DIY EV's

Interesting proposition.

[lyonsy]

Hi Guys Millennial here :firedevil:

If i lived in a city and i class suburbs as city as well or a large country town where i could do all my shopping there and work was half hour drive each way roughly i would seriously look at getting an electric car as a daily runabout POS if it was similar in price range to what i was looking at.
and since i don't buy new and the terrible resale of electric would mean its affordable [bigwhistle] hell if i could get an electric vehicle for like 2-3k id have one for in the middle of nowhere where i live just as a town run about

But i would also have something else id have for fun ether 4x4 or something fast.

Now probably half of all home owners in the suburbs could go electric with no issue, they travel less then 2 hours a day for work and shopping etc and go over sea's for there holidays and have off street parking where they could charge there car's.
Chevy actually had this issue with the volt when it was first released as people where getting 7-800 mile and 6-12months per gallon and had the fuel turning to varnish and when they went to run the engine it wouldn't run as the lines where all blocked so they had to do a software update to run the engine every 50-100 miles.

Now is electric better for the environment not really even using roof top its just moving emission's from one location to anther until they get fuel cell's going anyway.

btw i am not a pro electric but it will be the way commuter cars will go.

[carjunkieanon]

I'm pre-millennial and would be well pleased with an electric vehicle.

Specifically, a soft top 10 seater Series 2 or 3 converted from ICE to electric. Only needs 100km range, barely needs 80kph top speed. Would use as everyday runabout where I barely drive 10mins at a time.

[goingbush]

<snip>

Now is electric better for the environment not really even using roof top its just moving emission's from one location to anther until they get fuel cell's going anyway.


Now Lyonsy , (and V8Ian) watch and learn !! And forget about affordable Fuel Cell technology , its not going to happen any time soon , Sodium Batteries will be along shortly & Fuel Cells will be a distant memory like Betamax & 8 track.


https://youtu.be/6RhtiPefVzM


https://youtu.be/rdqtFXyDLIo

[goingbush]

I'm pre-millennial and would be well pleased with an electric vehicle.

Specifically, a soft top 10 seater Series 2 or 3 converted from ICE to electric. Only needs 100km range, barely needs 80kph top speed. Would use as everyday runabout where I barely drive 10mins at a time.


Something like my conversion would suit you down to the ground . Except mine is a SWB & reg as a 2 seater . The other win is Electrics don't care if you take them on short trips . They don't need warm up time & don't need to be driven till they are hot like ICE do. Perfect for Local trips , distance to my nearest neighbouring major town and back exceeds battery range but Ive still managed to chalk up 5000km in 10 months as a daily local runabout.

[Homestar]

Hi Guys Millennial here :firedevil:

If i lived in a city and i class suburbs as city as well or a large country town where i could do all my shopping there and work was half hour drive each way roughly i would seriously look at getting an electric car as a daily runabout POS if it was similar in price range to what i was looking at.
and since i don't buy new and the terrible resale of electric would mean its affordable [bigwhistle] hell if i could get an electric vehicle for like 2-3k id have one for in the middle of nowhere where i live just as a town run about

But i would also have something else id have for fun ether 4x4 or something fast.

Now probably half of all home owners in the suburbs could go electric with no issue, they travel less then 2 hours a day for work and shopping etc and go over sea's for there holidays and have off street parking where they could charge there car's.
Chevy actually had this issue with the volt when it was first released as people where getting 7-800 mile and 6-12months per gallon and had the fuel turning to varnish and when they went to run the engine it wouldn't run as the lines where all blocked so they had to do a software update to run the engine every 50-100 miles.

Now is electric better for the environment not really even using roof top its just moving emission's from one location to anther until they get fuel cell's going anyway.

btw i am not a pro electric but it will be the way commuter cars will go.

Not sure what emissions are being moved charging your EV off rooftop solar? I’d like an explanation of that one if you could please?

Charging from non renewables - to a point, but due to the efficiencies gained in large power stations, the amount of emissions per km compared with pouring petrol into a vehicle are dramatically reduced.

Yes, I agree fuel cells will play a large roll in the future - along with straight EV, these 2 technologies could irradiate the ICE for ever in the not too distant future.

[bee utey]

Yes, I agree fuel cells will play a large roll in the future - along with EV, these 2 technologies could irradiate the ICE for ever in the not too distant future.

Nah, that's Nooclear power that does that...

[carjunkieanon]

Something like my conversion would suit you down to the ground . Except mine is a SWB & reg as a 2 seater . The other win is Electrics don't care if you take them on short trips . They don't need warm up time & don't need to be driven till they are hot like ICE do. Perfect for Local trips , distance to my nearest neighbouring major town and back exceeds battery range but Ive still managed to chalk up 5000km in 10 months as a daily local runabout.

I've looked at your videos and build report with interest as great as my ignorance on how it's all done. I'd need something with 7 seats to move the family however so that would be the most significant design requirement.

[Saitch]

Geez, I can't wait to here the deep, throaty rumble of an electric touring car at Bathurst or the throaty howl of a battery powered Ducati at Phillip Island [bigsad]

Might be a market for virtual reality headphones at events?

[DiscoMick]

Don't you like high-pitched whining?

[Saitch]

Don't you like high-pitched whining?

Sorry, Mick, no reply on the grounds I might incinerate myself[biggrin]

[goingbush]

Geez, I can't wait to here the deep, throaty rumble of an electric touring car at Bathurst or the throaty howl of a battery powered Ducati at Phillip Island [bigsad]

Might be a market for virtual reality headphones at events?

I miss the sound of Steam Engines too, but there will be no one happier than the Albert Park residents .

[DiscoMick]

F1 cars already do high-pitched whining so that won't change.

[goingbush]

Bollinger production 2019 , can't wait till theres one in my driveway !



https://youtu.be/cALpN6PhvxE

[lyonsy]

Sodium still wont have the energy density required to replace petrol/diesel and will just give those who use there cars as commuters less worry's on range.
And would there be enough materials in the world to convert the world over (this is not possible with Lithium)

Roof top solar unless you are charging during the day or pumping it into battery's then using them to charge your car your not really reducing the carbon emission's of the electricity, yes you are putting electricity into the grid then claiming it back later on but the grid is not a battery (yet) its just rob Peter to pay Paul, Same as buying carbon credits from some 3rd world country cause they are allowed this much carbon but only use this much.
Once Australia is not using as much fossil fuel for electricity then they will become less carbon intensive.
so hence why i say your just removing emissions from city and putting where the power plant is in the majority of case's.
and Yes overseas ev's are better due to there electricity supply.

The other part with the roof top is how many systems are actually large enough to offset the cars use and how many people would upgrade there system for it when they charge at night on night rates when its cheap well so long as the cheap rates times are long enough to charge the car back up with a 15 amp power point.

Fuel cell's will still be coming as i cant see trucks giving up the amount of payload the battery's would take away they will just be more a replacement for diesel vehicles then petrol as petrol can be replaced atm for a vast majority if we had the resource's available

[bee utey]

Geez, I can't wait to here the deep, throaty rumble of an electric touring car at Bathurst or the throaty howl of a battery powered Ducati at Phillip Island [bigsad]

Might be a market for virtual reality headphones at events?

A bit like every time I hear the ring of an old Bakelite phone I look around and spot some crusty ancient patting his pockets to find his mobile. [bigrolf]

[Zeros]

ahhh the serenity! ...it can't come fast enough! [bigwhistle] ...or maybe that's cant (homage to DiscoMick) on my part - because I do secretly like a nice V8 growl! [bigrolf]

[Zeros]

...although the serenity of one of these! would outweigh my latent inner V8 bogan by 100:1 ...

YouTube
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-QW8cnflVk)
Land Rover must be kicking themselves... the next Defender is unlikely to compete with the Bollinger B1 depending on price. I wonder if there has been design patent dispute?

[bee utey]

And here's the very beginning of the EV conversion market for lovers of small block chevs...

Chevy’s new electric Camaro is the near future of EV drag racing - The Verge (https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/4/18057110/chevy-electric-camaro-ecopo-ev-drag-racing)


“I like that they’re using proven off-the-shelf components and that they’re pushing electric vehicles into motorsports,” automotive journalist Bozi Tatarevic tells The Verge. “The motor that they are using is obviously stout since Daimler chose the same one for the eCanter. The inverters they are using are widely available and match up with their claims of running 800 volts.”

Perhaps most important, Tatarevic says, is that the housing for the electric motors matches that of GM’s combustion LS motors, which are supremely popular. This “offers an opportunity for other race cars to adapt the same system if they decide to offer it as a crate package,” Tatarevic says, theoretically making it easier for people to explore EV drag racing beyond just bringing their Tesla to the track (https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-p100d-vs-dodge-challenger-srt-392-drag-race/).

[DiscoMick]

If Mazda released an EV version of our 2 with at least a 300km range at a reasonable price I'd seriously consider trading ours on it.
For one reason, we currently spend about $50 to refill our 2 for a range of 550-600ks. Two recharges of an EV 2 for a similar total range could cost less than $10, based on the Nissan Leaf's recharging costs. So, we could be about $40 better for the same distance in an EV version. Servicing costs should also be lower.

[JDNSW]

When equivalent EVs reach comparable prices to ICE cars, there are two factors that will distort what happens.

1. The tradein on your old ICE will get disappointingly low

2. As EVs replace ICE vehicles, one of the intial effects will be lowered petrol demand, and as a result, oil prices can be expected to drop.

I think the magnitude of these effects are quite unpredictable. I am sure that they can be modelled by economists, but to do so you need to input values for a number of factors that will be pure guesses - so the results will be whatever the modeller want them to be!

Typical for economic models, and this will be a substitution of technology that has no prior comparable examples to learn from.

[Zeros]

The other problem may be that imported EV's don't plug into gum trees. ...the big question mark over the Bollinger vehicles is, how do you charge them out bush? ...which means that ICE or Hybrid 4x4's will be around for a long time to come. I'm surprised there is no hybrid Bollinger model.

[bee utey]

The other problem may be that imported EV's don't plug into gum trees. ...the big question mark over the Bollinger vehicles is, how do you charge them out bush? ...which means that ICE or Hybrid 4x4's will be around for a long time to come. I'm surprised there is no hybrid Bollinger model.

Do you distill eucalyptus oil to refill your diesel tank? Or do you drive to the nearest town?

[goingbush]

The other problem may be that imported EV's don't plug into gum trees. ...the big question mark over the Bollinger vehicles is, how do you charge them out bush? ...which means that ICE or Hybrid 4x4's will be around for a long time to come. I'm surprised there is no hybrid Bollinger model.

I'd be surprised if some sort of range extender is not optioned for undeveloped markets such as ours, if not the aftermarket suppliers will be right onto turbine range extenders etc, (or even MrFusion style devices [bigwhistle] )

[Zeros]

Do you distill eucalyptus oil to refill your diesel tank? Or do you drive to the nearest town?

[thumbsupbig] Sometimes it’s a town, or a roadhouse, or a jerrycan. I wonder how much charge a jerrycan sized battery would hold?

[DiscoMick]

I see the Tesla recharging network is based on the criteria that recharging stations should not be more than 500 kms apart. Judging from the map of charging locations, that could soon be achieved.
Don't forget too that a 15amp charging point is not essential. They can be plugged into any power point. It just takes longer to recharge. So, any power point will do.

[goingbush]

[thumbsupbig] Sometimes it’s a town, or a roadhouse, or a Jerrycan. I wonder how much charge a jerrycan sized battery would hold?

A Jerry can size of my LFP batteries is 3.2kwh = Approx 10km in my Landy or 15km in a Nissan Leaf .

Would have been handy for me when I ran out of charge 5km from home & had to call a Flat top . I do happen to have 5 spare cells that would make up such a pack but would need to also source a suitable Inverter .

Probably make more sense dare I say to carry a small generator.

Edit,

Further to above, now you've got me thinking.
4 of the LFP 200 AHA Cells above will be 12.8v nom (13.8 max 11.6 min) Use onboard Solar Panels & MPPT to charge the 'jerry can' and a 240v 3500W inverter as a handy 240v power supply and to plug the J1772 Onboard charge lead into in an emergency , - but will only give about 10km range to your depleted traction pack, . Wait for the "Jerry Can" to charge from onboard Solar panels (might take a day or 2) & add another 10km to your battery pack . slow process but better than walking , And that 10km would become 20km when driving in "Eco mode"

[Zeros]

A Jerry can size of my LFP batteries is 3.2kwh = Approx 10km in my Landy or 15km in a Nissan Leaf .

Would have been handy for me when I ran out of charge 5km from home & had to call a Flat top . I do happen to have 5 spare cells that would make up such a pack but would need to also source a suitable Inverter .

Probably make more sense dare I say to carry a small generator.

Edit,

Further to above, now you've got me thinking.
4 of the LFP 200 AHA Cells above will be 12.8v nom (13.8 max 11.6 min) Use onboard Solar Panels & MPPT to charge the 'jerry can' and a 240v 3500W inverter as a handy 240v power supply and to plug the J1772 Onboard charge lead into in an emergency , - but will only give about 10km range to your depleted traction pack, . Wait for the "Jerry Can" to charge from onboard Solar panels (might take a day or 2) & add another 10km to your battery pack . slow process but better than walking , And that 10km would become 20km when driving in "Eco mode"

Ha! Thanks GB! :) ...reckon it would be quicker to walk [bigrolf] ...but the electric jerrycan has potential! Just need to get each up to a range of 200km!

[rar110]

I'd be surprised if some sort of range extender is not optioned for undeveloped markets such as ours, if not the aftermarket suppliers will be right onto turbine range extenders etc, (or even MrFusion style devices [bigwhistle] )

Some like the BMW EV have the option of a petrol generator to extend range. Intended more for the unexpected I think.

[goingbush]

Some like the BMW EV have the option of a petrol generator to extend range. Intended more for the unexpected I think.


Mazda have an EV planned with a small rotary engine coupled to a generator as a Range Extender, Ideal use for a Rotary IMO .

Mazda confirms rotary range extender for upcoming EV (https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1119109_mazda-confirms-rotary-range-extender-for-upcoming-ev)

[DiscoMick]

Ah, that's an electric 2. Good move.

[austastar]

Hi,
Somewhere I read that the Poms have an electric garbage truck that can recharge/top-up with a small gas turbine.
The idea is silent running in smaller streets and lanes, then recharge on major/through roads.
Not that garbage trucks are quiet when loading/compacting, but it is a step in the right direction.
Cheers

[Jojo]

Some like the BMW EV have the option of a petrol generator to extend range.

Mazda have an EV planned with a small rotary engine coupled to a generator as a Range Extender


Quite silly, actually. You wouldn't equip an ICE-vehicle with an electric engine and some batteries just in case the fuel tank runs dry, would you?!? Put in an adequately sized pack of decent batteries, enable fast charging and off you go.

[goingbush]

Quite silly, actually. You wouldn't equip an ICE-vehicle with an electric engine and some batteries just in case the fuel tank runs dry, would you?!? Put in an adequately sized pack of decent batteries, enable fast charging and off you go.

Yes it is very silly . But some people cant get their head around 'Range Anxiety" like any other form of anxiety is just a state of mind. In the transition from ICE to EV I guess there is a market for it.

[rammypluge]

Roof top solar unless you are charging during the day or pumping it into battery's then using them to charge your car your not really reducing the carbon emission's of the electricity, yes you are putting electricity into the grid then claiming it back later on but the grid is not a battery (yet) its just rob Peter to pay Paul, Same as buying carbon credits from some 3rd world country cause they are allowed this much carbon but only use this much.
Once Australia is not using as much fossil fuel for electricity then they will become less carbon intensive.
so hence why i say your just removing emissions from city and putting where the power plant is in the majority of case's.
and Yes overseas ev's are better due to there electricity supply.

The other part with the roof top is how many systems are actually large enough to offset the cars use and how many people would upgrade there system for it when they charge at night on night rates when its cheap well so long as the cheap rates times are long enough to charge the car back up with a 15 amp power point.

If you get 100% greenpower from your energy retailer your arguments fall down.

[PhilipA]

I
f you get 100% greenpower from your energy retailer your arguments fall down.

ROTFL
If you actually believe that then I have a great bridge to sell you.

Regards Philip A

[DiscoMick]

Yes it is very silly . But some people cant get their head around 'Range Anxiety" like any other form of anxiety is just a state of mind. In the transition from ICE to EV I guess there is a market for it.Hybrids just seem like a poor compromise to me. They aren't very good EVs or ICEs.

[goingbush]

Heres the thing PhillipA, I don't give a flying **** where my electricity comes from . Solar Wind Coal Hydro , I simply don't care because its what it is & theres nothing I can do about it . No good rabbiting on or getting stressed over it. I plug the ****ing car in & it charges . Thats all that matters.

I have solar panels , my feed in tariff is 0.71c , thats how much AGL pay me for a kwh of electricity,

I buy back power for 0.29c kwh

My car uses 30kwh for 100km You do the maths.

[PhilipA]

So why make a point of your "green" credentials by paying extra for non existent green electricity?
So you can boast about it? You made the point , I didn't.

Regards Philip A

[lyonsy]

Heres the thing PhillipA, I don't give a flying **** where my electricity comes from . Solar Wind Coal Hydro , I simply don't care because its what it is & theres nothing I can do about it . No good rabbiting on or gettiung stressed over it . I plug the ****ing car in & it charges . Thats all that matters.

I have solar panels , my feed in tariff is 0.71c , thats how much AGL pay me for a kwh of electricity,

I buy back power for 0.29c kwh

My car uses 30kwh for 100km You do the maths.


congrats you got solar when it really was worth it with good feed in tarrif and rates and locked them in for a long time, for me to put solar on i am maybe 250-500 a year better off maybe as the roof top solar in the area has the voltage in my area around 245v or higher during the day so not a lot to feed into. Hell a mate got a 6kw system put in back then and gets a $1000 a 1/4 from it.
now its 10c feed in with 15c buy back for off peak and 25c peak (these can change a few cents depending on location) so while you can run a car for nothing the fresh lot coming in it will cost them, yes less then petrol if they use it like a regular town car.

rammypluge with electricity unless live near a hydro plant its doesn't matter what you buy on paper your still being supplied the same stuff everyone else gets your just paying more for what is cheaper to produce electricity, and i also said oversea's this changes due to higher rates of renewable electricity.
145904

[goingbush]

congrats you got solar when it really was worth it with good feed in tarrif and rates and locked them in for a long time, for me to put solar on i am maybe 250-500 a year better off maybe as the roof top solar in the area has the voltage in my area around 245v or higher during the day so not a lot to feed into. Hell a mate got a 6kw system put in back then and gets a $1000 a 1/4 from it.
now its 10c feed in with 15c buy back for off peak and 25c peak (these can change a few cents depending on location) so while you can run a car for nothing the fresh lot coming in it will cost them, yes less then petrol if they use it like a regular town car.

rammypluge with electricity unless live near a hydro plant its doesn't matter what you buy on paper your still being supplied the same stuff everyone else gets your just paying more for what is cheaper to produce electricity, and i also said oversea's this changes due to higher rates of renewable electricity.
145904

works for me !!


https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/45856532_1946537205428060_2549029902963703808_n.jp g?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=47b5cc3f43bd35df695d5e4f54c2a801&oe=5C7ACC95

[bee utey]

So why make a point of your "green" credentials by paying extra for non existent green electricity?
So you can boast about it? You made the point , I didn't.

Regards Philip A

Do you know how accounting works? You put units into a common pool, then take some units out later. They won't be the same marked units of course. Accounting isn't like carrying around a bag of metal tokens, where every token is individually marked for a single use.

Green electricity contracts work the same way. What you do is to pay a supplier who guarantees putting a number of units of energy into the grid, then you use a similar number of units later. It matters not that the units you're buying are produced from coal at that instant, what matters is that at some other time green units were used instead of coal units. Simple, eh?

[Zeros]

Even 'clean green' Tasmania - supposedly 100% hydro power - ran out of power / dam water a little while back, because they sold too much power to Victoria! Tasmania needed to bring in massive diesel generators until the dams filled back up!!

[rammypluge]

If a person pays for 100% greenpower they are ensuring x units of greenpower are produced (rather than x units of coalpower or whatever). If the person doesnt consume it directly themself, and sheesh who is going to try to track those specific electrons through the vast interconnected network, then they will be ensuring that joe blow, who was previously using non greenpower, will unbeknownst to him be consuming those x units of greenpower.

[bee utey]

Even 'clean green' Tasmania - supposedly 100% hydro power - ran out of power / dam water a little while back, because they sold too much power to Victoria! Tasmania needed to bring in massive diesel generators until the dams filled back up!!

Quite true, bad accounting risks got them into debt. Mind you, the diesel gennies were needed because the extension cord to the mainland broke, so they were unable to ask the Victorians for some brown electrons back to replace the green ones they had sent north the year before. Over a longer period though, Tasmania still produces more hydroelectric energy than it consumes, making it 100% renewable on balance. If they ever build a second cable and add some wind farms to the west coast they could get to supply a significant chunk of Victoria and NSW grids too with green energy.

[PhilipA]

Do you know how accounting works? You put units into a common pool, then take some units out later. They won't be the same marked units of course. Accounting isn't like carrying around a bag of metal tokens, where every token is individually marked for a single use.




If a person pays for 100% greenpower they are ensuring x units of greenpower are produced (rather than x units of coalpower or whatever

Er no. Retailers are compelled by law to buy all units of wind and solar power produced through the purchase of credits. If they do not buy the credits they have to pay a penalty to the government.

So all wind and solar energy produced has to be bought anyway by retailers. That is why coal stations are not fully utilized even though per kWH they are much cheaper than the wind power cost plus the credit.

When I first read the enabling legislation back in 2006?, I couldn't believe that wind power companies had no obligation to supply power 24/7 by buying coal/gas/hydro power to supply when they could not. So AEMO was then formed to control the network. Crazy stuff.
Regards Philip A

[rar110]

I buy back power for 0.29c kwh

My car uses 30kwh for 100km You do the maths.

So $8.70 for 100km?

[goingbush]

So $8.70 for 100km?

Yes in real terms , thats correct .

But on top of that My last 90 days solar credit component of my bill (from 5kw rooftop system) was $285.23 { Feed- in Tariff* 400.041kWh $0.713 $285.23cr } which is the feed in left after charging during the day & other household uses inc pool pump etc.

[lyonsy]

yep $8.70 if he does not account for his solar with it and uses his solar for the house only and for the companies to pay him (the more economical way since he is on 70c rebate which)
Or it cost's him nothing if he uses his solar providing he has around a 5kw setup which would charge it in around 6 hours providing it produces 5kw for the 6 hours ( i think you would need sun tracking and possibly cooling for this to happen on a 5kw system but not 100% on that )

To match that with diesel/petrol he would need something that gets 5-6L per 100km with fuel at around 1.6 which would be roughly the price where he is.

[ramblingboy42]

...the millenials might not get their homes or their inheritances but they will get their electric cars.

[bee utey]

...the millenials might not get their homes or their inheritances but they will get their electric cars.

They can live in their electric camper vans, judging by another thread on here.

[goingbush]

They can live in their electric camper vans, judging by another thread on here.


https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/42271871_1878619455553169_471623847603339264_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=8a64f0b57d8c28917a6dfde55d9f3198&oe=5C784342

[bee utey]

...

Now take that one step further, make it autonomous, then it can drive itself to the carpark at the end of your bush walk and have the coffee ready when you get there. No more out-and-back routes required for your enjoyment.

[goingbush]

Mightaswell just sit at home and watch the Leyland Brothers

[bee utey]

Mightaswell just sit at home and watch the Leyland Brothers

Wot, and wear a path to the beer fridge? Or will that be autonomous too? [biggrin]

Supported one way tours are a tourist drawcard, no reason why it can't be made more personal.

[PhilipA]

But on top of that My last 90 days solar credit component of my bill (from 5kw rooftop system) was $285.23 {
Feed- in Tariff* 400.041kWh
$0.713 $285.23cr } which is the feed in left after charging during the day & other household uses inc pool pump etc.
On behalf of all the widows , orphans, tenants, owners of houses with shade trees, and the homeless who subsidise you , I congratulate you on your personal cleverness in taking advantage of stupid politicians who came up with this scheme to personally enrich you.
I hope in the future when more people in your area want to fit solar that you will contribute voluntarily to the network enhancements necessary to stabilize the grid in your area.
regards Philip A

[goingbush]

On behalf of all the widows , orphans, tenants, owners of houses with shade trees, and the homeless who subsidise you , I congratulate you on your personal cleverness in taking advantage of stupid politicians who came up with this scheme to personally enrich you.
I hope in the future when more people in your area want to fit solar that you will contribute voluntarily to the network enhancements necessary to stabilize the grid in your area.
regards Philip A


Yes mate, its called fitting a Powerwall. Answer to all your ridiculous arguments .

[ramblingboy42]

I thought this was about electric vehicles vs ice.

[PhilipA]

Yes mate, its called fitting a Powerwall. Answer to all your ridiculous arguments .

I was referring to your feed in tariff of 71.3 cents vs cost of electricity to retailers of what 11cents or less..

In case you have missed it, that is a subsidy of about 60cents a kwh which has to be paid from tax receipts. Good work if you can get it, but in NSW it is all going away soon.
Regards Philip A

[bee utey]

I was referring to your feed in tariff of 71.3 cents vs cost of electricity to retailers of what 11cents or less..

In case you have missed it, that is a subsidy of about 60cents a kwh which has to be paid from tax receipts. Good work if you can get it, but in NSW it is all going away soon.
Regards Philip A

The only people I know who are sour about the premium FIT are those who missed out on it. It was a time limited contract freely entered into by both parties, the house owner and the State that wanted to encourage the take up of solar panels.

Anyway, once it's over a Powerwall will make excellent economic sense instead of giving away your daytime production for peanuts.

[bee utey]

I thought this was about electric vehicles vs ice.

AULRO threads going off topic, how unusual... [bigrolf]

[Arapiles]

The cars battery pack, such as the new Nissan Leaf's 40kw pack, will combine with a typical 6 kW house battery. Once the car is charged, it will help to power the house at night.

Yes, they were doing this in Japan 10 years ago. Toyota - who also build houses in factories - could supply you with a house with a stupid amount of solar panels (entire roof basically), a house battery, a hybrid or PHEV car and a car-port fitted with a fast charger. The Japanese government is really pushing it now because it was these houses that proved to be resilient after Fukushima.

Edit: and as the Swedish Tesla link notes, it was the electric cars that were mobile after Fukushima, not the ICE ones.

[Arapiles]

Prius have been an abject failure in Australia.

Really, in what way? They've sold 70,000+ of them here, plus a fair whack of hybrid Camrys. And unlike most other vehicles, Prius actually achieve the economy they claim.


Inner City Virtue Signalers (ICVS) are only about 5-10% of the population so once every Inner City Virtue Signaler (ICVS) has one which is unlikely Millennials will be next. So if you call a Millennial someone who is 18 or less right now, how long will it be before they can afford to buy a minimum 50K car and that is for the most basic thing. ( how is that ? probably more accurate than the colour anyway)

If you go to Tesla's showroom in Chadstone Shopping Centre - which is very definitely not the inner city - you will see lots of ordinary people ogling the cars. When prices go down for EVs - which they will in the next 12 months when the new Kias and Hyundais arrive - then I would guess that the take-up will accelerate.

[Arapiles]

not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive, new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system!

In what way are solar cells expensive?

[Jojo]

Whilst we're at it, here it is:
e-car myths (http://teslaclubsweden.se/myths/)
Busted!!!

[Arapiles]

Things will move quicker than you think, but maybe not in Australia ... when I travel OS, particularly to Japan, it's noticeable how forward-looking they are. They're not whining about change, they're working out what's going to happen and then pursuing policies to get there or to cope with it. The Chinese see the green economy as the way that they will overtake the US and the UK is way more environmentally focussed. It reminds me of the Steve Bracks saying in 2008 that it was "more rather than less likely" that the car manufacturers would continue to make cars in Australia ....

[DiscoMick]

Yes, we are currently very backward looking in this country and are missing out on a lot of opportunities to create viable long term renewable jobs.

[goingbush]

Just seen in another group, i haven't seen this before, wow indeed !


https://youtu.be/8ye7Vh-_b50

[rammypluge]

Just seen in another group, i haven't seen this before, wow indeed !


https://youtu.be/8ye7Vh-_b50What is actually ludicrous in this comparison is that they spend an hour to fully charge the tesla, so they can access the ludicrous mode, to go a 'whopping' 0.6 seconds or thereabouts faster than the Urus. So all the other cars could have been an hour down the road; try to catch that Tesla.

I am for electric cars, but there is a massive caveat to this comparison. How would the Tesla have compared if ludicrous mode wasnt used?

And i dont imagine SVR owners are unhappy with the performance?

[Jojo]

What is actually ludicrous in this comparison is that they spend an hour to fully charge the tesla, so they can access the ludicrous mode, to go a 'whopping' 0.6 seconds or thereabouts faster than the Urus. So all the other cars could have been an hour down the road; try to catch that Tesla.

I am for electric cars, but there is a massive caveat to this comparison. How would the Tesla have compared if ludicrous mode wasnt used?

And i dont imagine SVR owners are unhappy with the performance?

Completely unnecessary and a waste of time to charge that long. Ludicrous mode will work as long as 'state of charge' of the batteries is about 60% or above. If not, you still are reaching 100km/h from standstill in about 4sec flat, which is the normal acceleration time (you even can use the 'chill'-option, taking acceleration time to a yawning 7sec or so). Maybe slower than the other vehicles in this test, but who cares anyway?

[PhilipA]

Completely unnecessary and a waste of time to charge that long. Ludicrous mode will work as long as 'state of charge' of the batteries is about 60% or above. If not, you still are reaching 100km/h from standstill in about 4sec flat,
I watched a AFAIR "Top Gear" test a few nights ago where the bloke driving in a test of a Tesla vs a Porsche said that the ludicrous mode could not be used until the vehicle( I assume the batteries) had been warmed up for 10 minutes. The driver had little experience with Teslas, but his boss sitting in the passenger seat arranged this.

After the run they had to be cooled for 10 minutes prior to the next run.

He commented this would not be good for a "traffic light grand prix"

Interestingly, the Tesla led the Porsche up to 120MPH but then the Porsche overtook it and beat it to 150MPH.

[DiscoMick]

I watched a AFAIR "Top Gear" test a few nights ago where the bloke driving in a test of a Tesla vs a Porsche said that the ludicrous mode could not be used until the vehicle( I assume the batteries) had been warmed up for 10 minutes. The driver had little experience with Teslas, but his boss sitting in the passenger seat arranged this.

After the run they had to be cooled for 10 minutes prior to the next run.

He commented this would not be good for a "traffic light grand prix"

Interestingly, the Tesla led the Porsche up to 120MPH but then the Porsche overtook it and beat it to 150MPH.
Why would batteries need to warm up? They're either charged or not charged.

[bee utey]

Why would batteries need to warm up? They're either charged or not charged.

The temperature of the batteries affects the amount of current you can draw out of them. Too cold or too hot are both going to limit the current so making sure your battery pack is "just right" is important for maximum performance. But then too hot or too cold affect your petrol engines too, so I'm suspicious of clowns who make a big deal out of this.

And of course these EV's cream the pants off enough cars already, even when they aren't in ludicrous mode, so it's only a concern when you're pushing the outer limits of the tech.

[bee utey]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASSjScc-nSI

Tesla Model 3 Performance sets fastest time at Global Attack event on track mode, gets disqualified for 'being electric' - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2018/11/11/tesla-model-3-performance-global-attack-on-track-mode-disqualified-electric/)

[goingbush]

Iv'e come to the conclusion that some people will be always anti EV , as they are anti any electronics in a car & Mechanical injection Diesel reigns supreme . They will always have sour grapes for being "forced" into an EV .

However don't worry there are ways to hang onto bygone technologies. Still living the dream in Lancaster county USA .

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRHEa_JKbodWZ2IosmJ5nDjCtyH9u7VE k9zzDfYV4QyTross-Io

[weeds]

Iv'e come to the conclusion that some people will be always anti EV , as they are anti any electronics in a car & Mechanical injection Diesel reigns supreme . They will always have sour grapes for being "forced" into an EV .

However don't worry there are ways to hang onto bygone technologies. Still living the dream in Lancaster county USA .

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRHEa_JKbodWZ2IosmJ5nDjCtyH9u7VE k9zzDfYV4QyTross-Io

Your passion and knowledge and posting on here has enlighten me....

Re: other commenting about the YouTube clip....it was a drag race over 400m, one normally doesn’t drive likely this. If you notice nearly all manufacturers give a performance rating I.e. 0-60 or 0-100

I did like the performance of the G Wagon.

[goingbush]

Your passion and knowledge and posting on here has enlighten me....

Re: other commenting about the YouTube clip....it was a drag race over 400m, one normally doesn’t drive likely this. If you notice nearly all manufacturers give a performance rating I.e. 0-60 or 0-100

I did like the performance of the G Wagon.

TBH that G-Wagon was pretty neat . The way that thing stood up with all that torque and held the stance all the way , thats grunt . Funny how the JLR product was all but ignored , on any other day would be a powerhouse.

[rammypluge]

A Velar SVR would look hot.

My idea for an electric offroad tourer would be for it to be fully electric but have a backup generator. As soon as you begin the trip (with a full charge) the generator is started, and runs 24/7 until you get back home, or to a fast charging station near home. Of course it would have to be so quiet it doesnt spoil your enjoyment of the outback. Hmm, getting it quiet enough could be a challenge.

[weeds]

TBH that G-Wagon was pretty neat . The way that thing stood up with all that torque and held the stance all the way , thats grunt . Funny how the JLR product was all but ignored , on any other day would be a powerhouse.

Two notice they didn’t even talk to the driver of the landy

[rammypluge]

YouTube (https://youtu.be/lItIyxGZUZQ)

[goingbush]

ho hum.

that bloke is as credible as a story published on a site called "Tree Hugger " would be .

but it makes sense

What it's like to take a 1,000-mile road trip in a Tesla | TreeHugger (https://www.treehugger.com/cars/what-its-take-1000-mile-road-trip-tesla.html?fbclid=IwAR20XuEDH2jWGtuBTFhTFKUh1QhWht dlNX78kOu4qBlg9qUrEmIx7qSj2xU)