New 737 firefighting tanker

[Old Farang]

The launch of the latest Large Air Tanker (LAT) 'Gaia' will see in a world's first, a '737' utilised for aerial firefighting. 'Gaia' is the last of four LATs to arrive in the state to combat bush fires across NSW this season.

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RphslX45dQA)

[Fourgearsticks]

Be very interesting to see how much an hour they are charging for VLAT's, the 737's load of 15,000 litres is less than half the DC 10's 40,000 litres. I have heard the DC 10 is not coming out this year.

[Old Farang]

No idea how they work out an hourly rate. The insurance component alone must be substantial. There is another video floating around that shows the inside. Evidently it is configured for I believe, 18 passengers. There are 2 tanks with access down each side of them, and under FAA rules they have to have cabin staff. So I guess it is designed to transport a ground crew in addition to dropping retardant / water.

Giant Boeing 737 waterbomber deployed to battle Newcastle bushfires in world first - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-23/boeing-737-deployed-in-newcastle-to-fight-bushfire-world-first/10547636)

Firefighting 737: ‘Gaia’ arrives in Sydney for bushfire season (https://www.9news.com.au/2018/11/16/14/36/worlds-first-firefighting-737-arrives-in-sydney-for-bushfire-season)

[Fourgearsticks]

Talked to a bloke this morning who had flown on the DC10 in Oz, he said DC10's load is 45,000 litres.

[87County]

I believe the NSW LAT firefighting fleet is now 2 RJs, a C130 and the "new" B737 (not at all new but well used aircraft previously owned by Southwest Airlines (US)), + smaller aircraft (local ag aircraft (plural) & helos) on standby. Should all be a good backup for ground based firefighting resources.

Even though the 737 is freshly painted up in flash NSW RFS logos, it is still registered with US reg N137CG and operates with callsign "Bomber 137" from RAAF RIC. I am told that It is on long term lease from Coulson Aviation. Coulson Aviation is a Canadian outfit formerly known for running the 75+yo Martin Mars flying boats as firefighting tankers
Fly the Martin Mars! The Ultimate Experience Aircraft Familiarization Course (http://ultimateflyingexperience.ca/) .

I assume that Victoria's LATs have been delayed by the California bushfire crisis.

[101RRS]

Giant Boeing 737 waterbomber deployed to battle Newcastle bushfires in world first - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-23/boeing-737-deployed-in-newcastle-to-fight-bushfire-world-first/10547636)

Firefighting 737: ‘Gaia’ arrives in Sydney for bushfire season (https://www.9news.com.au/2018/11/16/14/36/worlds-first-firefighting-737-arrives-in-sydney-for-bushfire-season)

What is world first????

[87County]

What is world first????

perhaps it was the first time a B737 V/LAT had been used to dump water on a fire at Salt Ash ? :)

[Eevo]

the 737's load of 15,000 litres is less than half the DC 10's 40,000 litres. I have heard the DC 10 is not coming out this year.

i didnt know the load was so much less!

5 SEAT's would be cheaper.

we got briefed the DC10 would be in mildura so it could service both vic and SA

[goingbush]

To me a Canadair CL215 / 415 makes much more sense , the turnaround of 737 or DC10 is going to be a very long time.

Or one of these. Scoop up 15,000 L in a matter of seconds if it were so equipped.

ShinMaywa US-2 - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ShinMaywa_US-2)


https://youtu.be/eNx2U9puo7U

[Old Farang]

No longer involved in aviation, but I believe the reasoning behind the new B737 is to use it as a multi purpose tool to rapidly position ground crews in addition to having a water dumping role, albeit it limited capacity. And yes, loading an aircraft like a DC10 is a major problem, both in terms of a suitable airport, and more importantly, ground equipment and water source to load it.

[cjc_td5]

How could the 737 deliver the personnel to the fire ground? It would be severely limited to major airstrips only? Throw them out?

[trog]

Parachute
Smokejumper - Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokejumper)

[Old Farang]

How could the 737 deliver the personnel to the fire ground? It would be severely limited to major airstrips only? Throw them out?
As I understand it, the aircraft is to be available for other states use. There are many regional airports that can handle a B737, and if they are going to water bomb, then they would need to use the nearest suitable airport. It should be obvious that it is not the intention to "throw them out". Having said that, in the US they DO have ground crews that parachute into inaccessible fire areas.

[Hugh Jars]

You’d be surprised at the airports a 737 can operate from. Especially at their operating weights in this configuration.
Most of the eastern states fires would be within 30 mins flying time from a suitable airport (assuming the infrastructure is there).

[Hugh Jars]

I doubt the suitability of the CL to Australia. That assumes you have a suitable body of water to draw from.

[Fourgearsticks]

CL 415's maximum load is only 6000L all going well, the 215's is 5000L. These machines work well in Canada and around the Mediterranean. Australia (Or Strayia as our prime minister calls it) is a different situation. There are large bodies of water but by far he majority of fires are in remoter areas with no access.
I can see a point to DC 10, big quick aircraft carrying an ACTUAL load of 45000L of retardant or water, the DC 10 could access anywhere in the state it is based in less than 45 minutes.

[weeds]

You’d have to wonder why these are not deployed to central Queensland......

Maybe we have no money....

[101RRS]

They have been deployed - the 737 is there.

[weeds]

They have been deployed - the 737 is there.

There you go, hopefully they will assist .....was watching the news this morning and there was as no mention

[Old Farang]

I can see a point to DC 10, big quick aircraft carrying an ACTUAL load of 45000L of retardant or water, the DC 10 could access anywhere in the state it is based in less than 45 minutes.
The problem with an aircraft the size of a DC 10 is the ground equipment required to load it, along with access to the amount of water involved.
The same if using retardant, where do you hold the stuff, and how long is it going to take to position it? This happened several years ago in WA resulting in the loss of life and about 90% of a small town because of a lack of ground facilities.

[Eevo]

The problem with an aircraft the size of a DC 10 is the ground equipment required to load it, along with access to the amount of water involved.
The same if using retardant, where do you hold the stuff, and how long is it going to take to position it? This happened several years ago in WA resulting in the loss of life and about 90% of a small town because of a lack of ground facilities.


bulk water/retardant carrier.
shouldnt be hard. you have a local air support brigade near the airfield. i know how the CFS ones work. not hard at all and works well.

[Fourgearsticks]

I'm not sure but I think the 737 only did one load yeasterday and that was from Richmond NSW. The VLATs require a good fixed base with facilties like Avalon or Richmond. A 737 can get in and out of places like Mildura (as the Virgin machine did when it ran out of fuel on the taxy way taxing in after landing) but they are not equiped for fast pumping of liquids.
What is the detail of loss of a town in WA due to bad planning/lack of facilities? The 8's Nev has over there along with the 214 Huey's would have very good turn around and the same or more actual load delivery as a VLAT. What VLAT was based in WA?
As usual in a bad season there is not just one fire, in QLD now there are 80 with a lot having no vehicles in attendence. Black Saturday fires were similar with nearly 100 fires all over the state.
The big machines do have their place and when used to advantage are effective, so are the 802's, 212's that are based all over the country doing work that nobody hears about.

[Old Farang]

What is the detail of loss of a town in WA due to bad planning/lack of facilities?
The town was Yarloop and it was several years ago. I cannot recall what fixed wing was either there, or being considered, but the ground facilities, or lack of them, were the problem.

I have not done any aerial fire work, just used to fly helicopters amongst other things. But I grew up in the bush, my late Father was a local bushfire brigade captain, and I am well versed in what fires can do. It should be remembered that any aerial tanker is there to back up the ground crews, their function is not to extinguish fires per se. And helicopter's are much more flexible in what they can achieve.

[Hugh Jars]

A 737 can get in and out of places like Mildura (as the Virgin machine did when it ran out of fuel on the taxy way taxing in after landing).......

Sorry, the aircraft did NOT run out of fuel on the taxiway. They landed in a critical fuel state without statutory reserves [emoji4] (approx 15 mins).

I operate the 7/800 NG into Mildura (and other regional airports). It can easily work out of such places in the high 60T weights.

With a max ZFW of around 60T (assuming a fully loaded fire fighting aircraft gets to 60T), you could carry a couple of hours fuel plus reserves.

[Fourgearsticks]

I might have been zadgerating slightly [biggrin] What is the CASA approved reserve now 10 minutes 27 seconds [tonguewink]

[defender90]

Photos on Facebook of the 737 in action over Stanwell and Kabra fire, search Facebook for ashjo photography has great photos
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181129/9400344a9f03ecd8e75c1c62053d9fd1.jpg

[Fourgearsticks]

Great picture.

[weeds]

Photos on Facebook of the 737 in action over Stanwell and Labrador fire, search Facebook for ashjo photography has great photos
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181129/9400344a9f03ecd8e75c1c62053d9fd1.jpg

Wow...I just looked at the Facebook page, right time right spot to capture the entire dump...50+ pics

[defender90]

Wow...I just looked at the Facebook page, right time right spot to capture the entire dump...50+ pics

Yes they did an awesome job of capturing it in action

[DiscoMick]

Saw it on the TV news tonight too.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Is this fitted with anything special to operate at such low altitudes?

[Old Farang]

Is this fitted with anything special to operate at such low altitudes?
Just the pilots Cojones!

[Hugh Jars]

Is this fitted with anything special to operate at such low altitudes?

Probably not, apart from any mods done to fit the fire kit.
Looking at the leading edge slats, they have at least flaps 10 out (non-SFP). That would put the pass speed below 210kts (and above They would need to override the EGPWS Flap (and possibly Gear) when doing a run in to attack a fire.

[Fourgearsticks]

Drop speed is limited to both aircraft limits and the effect on substance being dropped. A higher speed tends to fragment and disperse too much, same with height.
Alternatively too low is not as effective and can do a lot of damage.

[4bee]

Alternatively too low is not as effective and can do a lot of damage.


A friend here had an Air Tractor drop a load near him. Snapped off a 30cm dia. Eucalyptus branch & the water would have killed him had it landed on him. Blimey, who'd have thought?

[cjc_td5]

The town was Yarloop and it was several years ago. I cannot recall what fixed wing was either there, or being considered, but the ground facilities, or lack of them, were the problem.

I have not done any aerial fire work, just used to fly helicopters amongst other things. But I grew up in the bush, my late Father was a local bushfire brigade captain, and I am well versed in what fires can do. It should be remembered that any aerial tanker is there to back up the ground crews, their function is not to extinguish fires per se. And helicopter's are much more flexible in what they can achieve.WA fires are generally unique as we get strong winds at night. Yarloop was lost entirely at night. No aerial support was going to help there.

[Fourgearsticks]

A friend here had an Air Tractor drop a load near him. Snapped off a 30cm dia. Eucalyptus branch & the water would have killed him had it landed on him. Blimey, who'd have thought?
That's why the drop height is higher, as I said it disperses better and the droplet size is smaller so even if it is dropped on vehicle or person it should only just wet them like heavy rain. Problems with drop too high as well, there is an optimum height depending on quite a few factors.

[Old Farang]

WA fires are generally unique as we get strong winds at night. Yarloop was lost entirely at night. No aerial support was going to help there.
The town itself may well have been burnt overnight, I cannot remember. But the fire burnt a lot longer than just one night. I am well aware of the easterly winds in the summertime, having grown up less than 10 miles of where you are at Burekup! Cheers.

[cjc_td5]

The town itself may well have been burnt overnight, I cannot remember. But the fire burnt a lot longer than just one night. I am well aware of the easterly winds in the summertime, having grown up less than 10 miles of where you are at Burekup! Cheers.No worries. Yes there was fair amount of conjecture as to whether sufficient suppression was provided to the small fire that started 2 days prior, that ultimately grew and ran 80km that night...

[Eevo]

No worries. Yes there was fair amount of conjecture as to whether sufficient suppression was provided to the small fire that started 2 days prior, that ultimately grew and ran 80km that night...

most of it with the value of hindsight.
similar with the Canberra fires on 2003.