Land Rover Sales Figures 2018

[Zeros]

LRA would have to be very concerned with current sales figures. Discovery was outsold by even the Holden Trailblazer in May and July and only just pipped by RRS, as LRA’s best seller at the bottom of the charts.

http://www.loaded4x4.com.au/issue-003/#17

Top 20 4x4 sales in July 2018 (https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/top-20-4x4-sales-in-july-2018)

Does anyone have more recent figures?

[scarry]

Many luxury car makers sales are down,LR total sales have dropped around 30% compared with same time last year.

Discovery 5 is now their lowest selling vehicle world wide,Discovery was once their biggest selling vehicle,and the vehicle that many say,saved the company.

The market has changed,as has their target market.

The way diesel engined vehicles are going,particularly in Europe, will not do them any favours either.

They need to get into Hybrid,and electric technology as quickly as possible.

Their main aim,it seems, is to produce lots of Range Rovers in all different shapes and sizes,but make them all look similar.

[Ean Austral]

Father in law was looking at buying a discovery sport , sales people ignored him at the first dealership ,and the other dealer he rang asking if they had any in stock as he didn't want to drive there if they didn't , never bothered calling him back for I think 4 days . When they did the mother in law was driving her brand new Nissan he purchased because he wasn't going to wait if they weren't interested in a sale .

its not always the product that is the cause of low sales .

Cheers Ean

[DiscoMick]

True.
This is a worldwide trend. The market is changing.

[Zeros]

Umm...not so much for Toyota and Ford.

[ramblingboy42]

Also the bottom line.

If you purchase another brand there is a ****load of money left over to add all the accessories you want, or for fuel.

Land Rover appear now to have completely ignored the spending power of 'average' persons and only cater to an upper level market. There is no economic entry level or I'd own a Land Rover product again.

[Zeros]

Surprise surprise! EVERYTHING hinges on the next Defender.

[goingbush]

Watch this space, JLR will be in denial, thanks to Gerry McGovern .


They really have done themselves an injustice by stopping Defender production, They could easily have gone to a new model 10 years ago without ceasing production , No one actually needs any of the techno crap they are pushing onto customers, JLR will blame their Failure on Brexit .

Jeep, Toyota & Mercedes are able to continue production of Live Axle models whilst seamlessly introducing EU safety regs .

Suzuki have seen the demand in Utilitarian 4x4 & reintroduced the Zook (which never actually stopped production) The sales figures of the new model is at record numbers & they cant supply demand , Australian orders are presold.

https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/new-suzuki-jimny-to-be-pricier-and-more-limited-114915/?fbclid=IwAR0m2No7M9npQfZCGYwFxfryKdAZX5pxPEWJLZ4y iRDdTl0QuOFCtD3k7Bo

[Ean Austral]

Also the bottom line.

If you purchase another brand there is a ****load of money left over to add all the accessories you want, or for fuel.

Land Rover appear now to have completely ignored the spending power of 'average' persons and only cater to an upper level market. There is no economic entry level or I'd own a Land Rover product again.

yep agree totally , the only L/R I will purchase new in the future would be if the lotto gods shine on me. Even looking at low Km second hand the price is well above some other brands new price .

My Father in Law saved about $20k by not buying the Discovery Sport and getting the Nissan.

Cheers Ean

[NavyDiver]

Father in law was looking at buying a discovery sport , sales people ignored him at the first dealership ,and the other dealer he rang asking if they had any in stock as he didn't want to drive there if they didn't , never bothered calling him back for I think 4 days . When they did the mother in law was driving her brand new Nissan he purchased because he wasn't going to wait if they weren't interested in a sale .

its not always the product that is the cause of low sales .

Cheers Ean
In 2009 I asked to take a D3 from a Dealer very close to me for a test drive. I wanted to buy one. I was blown off and told I had to wait for a D4 later that year! I wanted the 17inch rim MT tires and did not want a D4. I brought a 2005 D3 as was happy with both the car and the significant price saving. Oddly the D3 I brought at an auction had come via the same dealer for a trade in for a D4 I assume or possible;y as a lemon as it sulked until put Led globes and a few other tweaks on it. Due to a hail storm I now have a 2009 D3 I would have brought new if the Dealer had not been strangely difficult. Not suggesting all dealers are difficult. On the other hand I counted at least 20 D4s yesterday morning near here.

[SPROVER]

Also the fact the D5 is plain ugly[emoji16]

[laney]

Dealers are in my believe are a big problem here in Australia at least I walked into a dealer and because of what I was wearing (high vis clothing) was totally ignored one salesman even commented nice car if you can afford one. Told my then boss now he owned a very large earth moving and construction company so he went in wearing his hi vis shirt shorts and work boots got the same reaction so he approached a salesman and asked to speak to management after a short discussion they were falling over him he abruptly told the manager where to stick his sale. We both went to a land rover dealer in Melbourne and brought a car there that dealer didn't mind that we were in hi vis.

[drivesafe]

True.
This is a worldwide trend. The market is changing.
Hi Mick and no the market is not changing, Land Rover are aiming at a different market.


When the D2 first came out, Land Rover were in big trouble and it was only the die hard Land Rover enthusiast that kept the company afloat world wide.


The company now treats these same enthusiast with utter contempt and is aiming their sales pitch at soccer moms and elitists.


The problem is that the new range of Land Rovers just don’t appeal to this market and they have destroyed their original market.


Hell, even the Queen does not ride in the new Range Rovers, because they are too small.


Personally, with the experience I have had with Land Rover Australia, I hope the company goes belly up, but I think Tata will make sure that does not happen.


The point is though, they had a winner in the D4. Has to be the best Land Rover ever, and what did they do.


They down sized it, to what is now not much more than a glorified, grossly over priced CAR.


How can any one hope to advance a company’s sales by bring out the next model in a series of models, by make that new model a quantum leap backwards on the previous model.

[scarry]

Yes,your correct there,

"The point is though, they had a winner in the D4. Has to be the best Land Rover ever, and what did they do."
[/SIZE]

LR Aus,sold more D4's in the last year of production than any previous year of the D3/4 model.

The word had got around.

I have to agree to disagree that the vehicle market hasn't changed over the last few years.

Large diesel SUV's are definitely out of flavour,particularly in Europe.

A look at vehicle sales here shows utes have well and truly taken over from large family wagons.

[3toes]

Land Rover like a number of European manufacturers were dependent on sales volumes from China and while have no inside knowledge it seems to me they reshaped the range to accommodate this market. Sales in China of all cars have fallen significantly over the last year and you are seeing this in total sales figures. Problem is they moved product to meet the demand and traditional customer case did not go with them.

[drivesafe]

Hi 3toes and while we have seen what is happening in Europe, the info posted by the OP is about sales here in Oz.

LRA has been spending a fortune on advertising, and it would seem that this is not working for them.

As I posted, I hope LRA goes belly up, because then, just maybe, Land Rover in the UK, NOTE a totally separate company to LRA, but Land Rover in the UK might get some other company to sell their vehicles here, or they might do it themselves, just like VW now does.

While this may not alter the product as it is right now, it may help Land Rover to make a better product than they have right now.

[alan48]

I agree with most of the comments in this thread and can only see doom and gloom for LR sales here, and judging by the worries re the new Defender maybe a different approach is needed.

I note that Mercedes have redone the Nissan Navara --in fact quite significantly so they could get a product to sell--maybe LR could re do a Tata dual cab for eg so it does reflect what we feel LR is/should be about and get that onto the market--it seems to me that IF the new Defender is nothing but a cloned version of the seemingly similar RR and Discos then it will not sell well to us--they said they wanted to compete with Hilux, even down to similar wheel patters/studs I think I read once--that a dual cab could be what many of us want, and it still could be customised/modifies like we like to do now--there is no question dual cabs are the go to vehicle now days so who knows?

Give us a decent sized diesel for towing, an auto option and get it happening.

Or split off LR from RR/Disco so LR's can go their own way, or sell that wealthy chemical fellow the rights to Defender as he wants a 'proper' Defender and leave the rest of the RR/Disco's to their market--at the moment what is happening is not working!

I like some others are waiting for the new jeep Gladiator to land as it looks to be exactly what we are crying out for.

[DiscoMick]

LR really need to hit the sweet spot with the Defender because the lack of a workhorse model means they're left aiming at the family SUV market with the Discovery range and the premium market with Range Rovers.
Without a workhorse their range is seriously unbalanced and misses their traditional target market.
I'm sure they know it too, so they need to get it right and quickly get back in the market.

[rammypluge]

Interesting. I assumed they were going strong, although i could count the number of D5's i have seen on the roads on one or two hands, and i spend a lot of time on the road.

Interesting that their original market was farmers with the Series 1 etc. No product for them now.

Then their market grew to include expeditioners, particularly with the Series wagon variants. No product for them now.

Then it grew to include people looking for luxury when they went offroad. The range rover two door could be driven straight off the showroom floor across any challenge in Australia. Didnt even need to change the tyres. Not really a product for them now.

Then they appealed to the everyday family looking for an affordable 4wd, with the D1. No product for them now.

Then the urban affordable market with the freelander. No product for them now.

[Arapiles]

Dealers are in my believe are a big problem here in Australia at least I walked into a dealer and because of what I was wearing (high vis clothing) was totally ignored one salesman even commented nice car if you can afford one. Told my then boss now he owned a very large earth moving and construction company so he went in wearing his hi vis shirt shorts and work boots got the same reaction so he approached a salesman and asked to speak to management after a short discussion they were falling over him he abruptly told the manager where to stick his sale. We both went to a land rover dealer in Melbourne and brought a car there that dealer didn't mind that we were in hi vis.

That sort of thing has been going on forever - a friend whose father was a builder who'd migrated from Italy told me similar stories about a Mercedes dealer in the 80s.

In our case we went into a dealership in Melbourne about two years to look at D4s with wife and kids in tow and were blatantly ignored and then spoken to curtly when I started asking questions. It made me wonder if we didn't look rich enough for them and how you'd have to dress to get their attention. On that basis they'd probably snub most of my friends, some of whom are very wealthy, because none of them dress up or are ostentatious. I think that they also have simplistic views about how race and class interact with wealth.

[goingbush]

Give a homeless person a shave & dress him up in a Suit & he will get preferential service . I went into the local BMW Dealer as a cash buyer to collect a new Renault for my wife dressed as my usual scruffy self, blundstones with hole in one toe , crumpled khaki shirt half hanging out , I had pre arranged with the dealer by email otherwise I would have scampered when they told me to clear out & took my business elsewhere. ****ing psuedo Elitist ******.

[Arapiles]

Also the fact the D5 is plain ugly[emoji16]

Speaking as a "soccer dad" with three rows of kids, we bought a second hand D4 instead of a new D5 because:



it's boxy shape is practical, efficient and spacious;
the square corners and large glass all round make it easy to manoeuvre, even though it's quite a big car. Even reversing without the camera is possible, in contrast our CR-V is a pig, without a camera you're just guessing where it's going;

kids in the third row have theatre seating, leg room, and large waist height windows and in our case their own sunroof and air vents, so it's a light and spacious place to be on long trips, they can see out, including forward and the kids don't feel like they've been shoved in the boot. There's also sufficient leg room for adults;

the second row has width and legroom for adults and three identically sized, separately foldable seats;

the split tailgate;
the very tight turning circle - tighter than our much smaller CR-V.


In contrast the D5:



has prioritised looks and possibly aerodynamics over practicality;
has blind spots everywhere: you're going to need a camera to reverse - even with the front corners you're guessing where things are;
the third row is dark, windowless and claustrophobic - the windows are like portholes and are smaller and higher on the inside than they appear to be from the outside. There was a video of the D5 pre-release with the designers' young kids in it and I noticed that the kids were unable to see out of the third row. This is exacerbated by the fact that they've dropped the seat height so that you're closer to the floor: this was necessary because they've also dropped the roof height to make it swoopy;
the third row has less legroom: sure the seats are the same size but they're closer to the floor, so when I compared them I found that in the D5 my knees were folded up towards my chest which is not the case in the D4;

the second row has less visibility and no longer folds separately - I cannot understand why they changed this;

there's no split tailgate and the drop down thing is idiotic;

haven't heard anything about the turning circle so can't comment.


It's easy to mock people who buy the D4 as a suburban people-mover, which is what we could be accused of, but said people are not stupid. Speaking of the D4 an owner told a Carguide reviewer why they'd bought a D4:

"Joshua," she said in italics, as if I had asked a really dumb question, "it's a seven-seater than can actually fit adults in the back, you can fit three kid seats across the middle row, the windows are massive so you can see out of the bloody thing and it has a tight turning circle."

Exactly. In our case we'd also considered a Carnival but the D4 is actually more compact and there's at least the prospect of going off-road.

Whilst I see plenty of D4s around my kids' schools, I don't see any D5s. At all. I think that LR have lost an entire demographic by dishing up something that has the same name as the previous vehicle but had none of the attributes that made it worth buying.

Edit: said suburbanites were also painfully aware that LR have lots of dodgy products - Evoque is a current case in point - and aren't willing to put money down on a D5 until all the gremlins have been sorted out. And true to LR form there have been issues with the D5 - HVAC and media display and oil dilution for starters.

[rammypluge]

Doing my due diligence, i once checked out a new Y61 GU3. Unfortunately, i happened to be a tiny bit dressy. Just a tiny bit. The salesman kept looking like he wanted to be somewhere else, and almost scoffed at me, figuring there was no real chance i was going to buy. I didnt fit in it anyway, so the pressure was off, for both!

Dont forget that most salespeople will check out the car you arrive in. Arrive in an aventador looking like a bum, and you will probably be served anywhere.

[jonesfam]

Land Rover has, I think, lost it's identity.
The up-grade from the D1/D2 to the D3/D4 was radical but you still wouldn't mistake any of them for anything but a Discovery.
They managed to totally modernise the Discovery but kept it a Discovery.
The Discovery 5 & it's variants?? I saw my first D5 in the flesh a few weeks ago fueling up here, went to have a look, nice car, probably very capable, looked very comfortable, but they should have called it something else. Maybe the "Land Rover Blimp"?
As someone who knows absolutely nothing about design I firmly believe some things should be as square as possible, boxes, holes for round pegs & Land Rovers.
Jonesfam

[rammypluge]

I liked the look of the evoque when it came out, and was indifferent to the look of the disco sport when it arrived. Now i find the evoque a bit boring and dated, and like the look of the disco sport.

I am more often a progressive kind of guy, i predicted some of the features of the L322 years before it arrived, but they managed to outsmart me here, they predicted this bit of future a bit better than me.

Maybe the D5 will be like that, in terms of looks? I dont know. (Can it look a bit like it has heavy hips?).

[DiscoMick]

From the leaks it looks like the Defender will be pretty square. I suspect once it's out the Discovery range will look like good family vehicles. There is a D Sport at my work which is growing on me.

[rammypluge]

I just saw a Touareg on the road, and it occurred to me that the Touareg and D5 are pretty similar kinds of car. Does that mean LR are finally catching up to VW, or what??

On another topic mentioned earlier in this thread, there has indeed been a shift away from boxy rear ends. The Merc GL, Suzuki Grand Vitara, and the FF Range Rover takes it further each time. Funny thing is that the two door Rangie possibly started the trend in the first place back in 1970.

[Ean Austral]

From the leaks it looks like the Defender will be pretty square. I suspect once it's out the Discovery range will look like good family vehicles. There is a D Sport at my work which is growing on me.

so I guess you are waiting for the price tag to fully grow on you Mick. [tonguewink]

Father in law saved 30k buying a different brand to do the same job.

Cheers Ean

[rammypluge]

Hang on, the answer for a sales slide is possibly simple. They have gambled all their chips on the premium SUV market, and recently even more players have entered it. Such as maserati, lamborghini, rolls royce, bentley.

[grey_ghost]

I walked into a Land Rover dealership 3 years ago, and test drove a new Disco Sport. I told the salesman that I wanted to purchase the car, but he had to give me a good trade-in..

To cut a long story short - I ended up with a Skoda Octavia RS wagon that I'm very happy with! [thumbsupbig][tonguewink]

I've dealt with plenty of salesman in my life - he wasn't the worst but he was pretty darn close!

The Skoda salesman on the other hand was great to deal with and obviously wanted the business.

Been very happy with the car - I am hoping to look at the new Defender if it ever arrives, and is affordable (highly unlikely).

[Zeros]

Hang on, the answer for a sales slide is possibly simple. They have gambled all their chips on the premium SUV market, and recently even more players have entered it. Such as maserati, lamborghini, rolls royce, bentley.

Absolutely. They have gambled all their chips on the premium SUV market and turned their backs on not only the origin and core identity of the brand, but also the majority of the market (which remains remarkably similar today). The broader market was inspired by a vehicle that was highly pragmatic and was able to cross all societal boundaries from the Queen, to Defence, to the Adventurer, to the Farmer > the Series / Defender. These vehicles were classless.

It's interesting to see how the tide has turned. When the D5 was launched some on this forum were telling critics to "buy a Toyota" for expressing the above views. Now, perversely, unless the next Defender is awesome, no one will have any choice but to buy a Toyota!

The other problem is that with the current image of Land Rovers as elitist vehicles and classic Defenders now commanding higher prices, it means that many now look at Defenders as being part of the premium SUV market! ...rather than the pragmatic, heavy duty, work horse, all-rounder that they really are.

[gromit]

Land Rover have become very successful by their approach, they're running a business not a charity. Origin & core identity don't pay the bills, they need to produce a vehicle that the market wants, and wants in quantity.

What were the Defender sales figures for the last few year of production ? Forget the limited editions towards the end when everyone purchased as an 'investment'.
At a guess they couldn't possibly launch a new Defender that didn't share an existing platform because it would be economic suicide. The Defender market was small and doesn't justify a dedicated assembly line, they stayed with the Defender so long because the assembly line existed and they only made small changes to new models. I wonder what they lost financially by keeping on a hand-built, limited quantity vehicle.

It will be a Defender in name only if it ever materialises.

Their current best seller the Evoque is built on the Ford Focus platform, not sure who assembles what but obviously a hangover from when Ford owned them.
They now stick to their origin & core identity by offering rebuilt Series I's. The price of them probably indicates that they make more money than they did selling a new Defender (to be fair I've no idea what they spend on the reconditioning process).

Few on this forum will be completely happy with the replacement Defender (if it ever appears) but are those same unhappy campers even in the market for a modern SUV ?


Colin

[rammypluge]

The defender died through lack of investment and good management.

They should have been in a strong position so that as the market for genuine offroaders shrunk and other players pulled out they could retain reasonable volume.

[scarry]

The defender died through lack of investment and good management.

They should have been in a strong position so that as the market for genuine offroaders shrunk and other players pulled out they could retain reasonable volume.

Which is exactly what Toyota did[bighmmm]

Maybe they are the smart ones.

[DiscoMick]

They let it wither through neglect to 20,000 sales a year instead of investing to achieve 100,000 sales a year. Now they will have to play catch up.

[weeds]

The defender died through lack of investment and good management.

They should have been in a strong position so that as the market for genuine offroaders shrunk and other players pulled out they could retain reasonable volume.

I don’t reckon the genuine off-roader has shrunk.....

The majority are either set up for touring or are tradies utes and there are plenty of options which seems to be catering for the masses.

Land Rover choose not to continue the development of the defender as Toyota and g wagon did.

Either way if Landrover aren’t way down the track of having a fully electric version than they will be even further behind....oh I’m talking Europe market as they don’t give a toss about Aussie market.

[DiscoMick]

They say all LRs from 2020 will have electric/hybrid options.

[rick130]

They let it wither through neglect to 20,000 sales a year instead of investing to achieve 100,000 sales a year. Now they will have to play catch up.

I think maximum production was only ever around 25,000/year. It was about as much as they could pump out.

The thing was hand built, the way it was built had barely changed since 1948, it was too labour intensive to be viable.

A mate and Land Rover Australia consulting engineer went there in around 2000 and couldn't believe it.

[Zeros]

Yes they JLR need to make vehicles that appeal to diverse buyers.
...instead they have made all their vehicles the same, appealing only to the wealthy.

No they shouldn’t have kept making Defender the old Handbuilt way.
...instead they should have begun the redesign of Defender much earlier and with more conviction about it’s integrity and importance.

JLR’s stubbornness has only increased of late and it reminds me of Brexit (navel gazing).

Anyone who thinks JLR have made good commercial design decisions recently only needs to look at Land Rover at bottom of the sales tables to realise they haven’t.

JLR have missed the boat in the ute/dualcab market, they’ve dropped the ball in the basic / durable wagon market and they’ve allowed their credibility as a 4x4 leader to wither on the yuppie Toorak tractor luxury saloon vine.

[DiscoClax]

In the last seven years LR have increased their global sales five-fold. They now pump out about a half million LRs a year. Work out the average profit on each and then multiply by 500,000. Then bank that annually. 'nuff said.

[Zeros]

In the last seven years LR have increased their global sales five-fold. They now pump out about a half million LRs a year. Work out the average profit on each and then multiply by 500,000. Then bank that annually. 'nuff said.

No excuses re Defender then.

Their moment in the sun is peanuts compared with Toyota, Ford, etc and I believe it will be short lived due to a lack of 4x4 credibility and lack of diversity of market.

[DiscoClax]

No excuses for not getting the new Defo spot-on. I agree. They have the cash (and time) to do it properly. I'm still cautiously hopeful it'll be a good jigger and a worthy successor to the D4.

Question is whether they'll keep their anchor of credibility (like Jeep with the Wrangler) to prop up their high profit volume oferrings (some of which *gasp* are 2WD!), or let that fade away and just go forwards with style and luxury and hope that the credibility/capability image isn't the drawcard foundation those sales are built on...

[weeds]

JLR have missed the boat in the ute/dualcab market, they’ve dropped the ball in the basic / durable wagon market and they’ve allowed their credibility as a 4x4 leader to wither on the yuppie Toorak tractor luxury saloon vine.

I’m not convinced they had credibility as a 4x4 leader......

[Zeros]

No excuses for not getting the new Defo spot-on. I agree. They have the cash (and time) to do it properly. I'm still cautiously hopeful it'll be a good jigger and a worthy successor to the D4.

Question is whether they'll keep their anchor of credibility (like Jeep with the Wrangler) to prop up their high profit volume oferrings (some of which *gasp* are 2WD!), or let that fade away and just go forwards with style and luxury and hope that the credibility/capability image isn't the drawcard foundation those sales are built on...

The next Defender needs to be a worthy successor to the Defender, not the D4. They had their chance with D5. D4 is not a Defender. It was situated between Range Rover and Defender.

[Zeros]

I’m not convinced they had credibility as a 4x4 leader......

They did, but they’ve lost it in all Reas except luxury/tech.

I don’t think any of us would be driving them if they didn’t have cred.

[weeds]

They did, but they’ve lost it in all Reas except luxury/tech.

I don’t think any of us would be driving them if they didn’t have cred.

I think that applies to any make or model otherwise there would only be one option available...

a car is generally out next biggest purchase or in some cases our biggest purchase......when you outlay big dollars on your chosen car one generally thinks it has cred over everything else available otherwise you wouldn’t buy it.

My first 4WD was a short wheel base hilux yet at the time I was driving a company supplied Land Rovers for work every other day.

[DiscoClax]

The next Defender needs to be a worthy successor to the Defender, not the D4. They had their chance with D5. D4 is not a Defender. It was situated between Range Rover and Defender.Nope. That era has passed now. If you are expecting a modernised Defo you will be very disappointed. The new Defo will essentially be a successor to the D4 in everything but name. The D5 has moved away from its capable, practical past...

[Zeros]

My first 4WD was a short wheel base hilux yet at the time I was driving a company supplied Land Rovers for work every other day.

Great to see that you were won over by the Land Rovers - more cred? [thumbsupbig][bigwhistle] It was the opposite for me...I've driven Toyotas for decades for work, but when I drove a Defender I was won over. Far superior ride, handling, off road ability and design cred IMO.

[Zeros]

Nope. That era has passed now. If you are expecting a modernised Defo you will be very disappointed. The new Defo will essentially be a successor to the D4 in everything but name. The D5 has moved away from its capable, practical past...

Yes exactly. I'm expecting to be very disappointed. I don't think I will be the only one. That is the point.

[weeds]

Great to see that you were won over by the Land Rovers - more cred? [thumbsupbig][bigwhistle] It was the opposite for me...I've driven Toyotas for decades for work, but when I drove a Defender I was won over. Far superior ride, handling, off road ability and design cred IMO.

I think we get your view on defenders.....

[Zeros]

I think we get your view on defenders.....

Great. I know you love yours too [thumbsupbig] Have you driven a 70 series yet?

[weeds]

Great. I know you love yours too [thumbsupbig] Have you driven a 70 series yet?

Er would say I love mine it suits us for now......I’m not you normal rivet counter with blinkers on.

No need to drive a 70 series.....a drive wouldn’t influence my decision.

Think I’ve mentioned before, the last car I purchased new the salesman couldn’t believe his ears I refused a test drive. From memory my bride test drove our current defer, my previous defer my dad went and had a look to purely make sure the car existed and don’t recall him driving it, I paid for it than flew 700km grabbed the keys and drove home.

[LRJim]

From memory my bride test drove our current defer, my previous defer my dad went and had a look to purely make sure the car existed and don’t recall him driving it, I paid for it than flew 700km grabbed the keys and drove home.

Lol done that a few times..."does it drive?" "Yeah it drives" "no worries I'll test drive it on the way home". Gets halfway down the western freeway and the brakes disappear gotta love falcons...

[rammypluge]

No test drive isnt for me even if paying by personal cheque on a saturday afternoon.

From the reports i have read the defender will use an existing alloy monocoque, for good or bad. So it wont even be like a D4.

[gromit]

Yes they JLR need to make vehicles that appeal to diverse buyers.
...instead they have made all their vehicles the same, appealing only to the wealthy.
They need to make them appeal to large market sectors that want to buy them not niche markets (Defender buyers).

No they shouldn’t have kept making Defender the old Handbuilt way.
...instead they should have begun the redesign of Defender much earlier and with more conviction about it’s integrity and importance.
Too late for that, the horse has bolted

JLR’s stubbornness has only increased of late and it reminds me of Brexit (navel gazing).
You'd need to explain that comment, I don't understand how they are being stubborn

Anyone who thinks JLR have made good commercial design decisions recently only needs to look at Land Rover at bottom of the sales tables to realise they haven’t.
How big are they compared to the companies you're comparing them to ?
BMW dumped them then Ford dumped them at least under Tata they have grown.

JLR have missed the boat in the ute/dualcab market, they’ve dropped the ball in the basic / durable wagon market and they’ve allowed their credibility as a 4x4 leader to wither on the yuppie Toorak tractor luxury saloon vine.
When did they last have a big foothold in this market ? Series III ?





In the last seven years LR have increased their global sales five-fold. They now pump out about a half million LRs a year. Work out the average profit on each and then multiply by 500,000. Then bank that annually. 'nuff said.
That's a very simplistic view.
Factor in marketing, promotions, R&D developing new models, upgrading existing models, moving production of IC vehicles, developing electric vehicles, setting Solihull up to produce electric vehicles etc. etc. etc.. There's a fair few bills to pay......
They also have to show a profit (return on investment) otherwise they are not viable.


The new Defender is unlikely to be what 'enthusiasts' want but we are not their target market and haven't been for some time.

Time to take off the rose tinted spectacles and realise that they have taken a different approach to the market and they are successful. Yes, they could have stayed with their heritage, and moved/stayed in different market sectors but they didn't.

Whatever we discuss here won't change anything so it really is a case of wait & see.
Personally I'm not even in their target market, my daily driver is a Ford (servicing/maintenance is a fraction of LR costs) and I don't need 4WD for 98% of my driving.


Colin

[DiscoClax]

Note that I didn't say that money would stay in the bank. More intimating that they can then draw on that (huge) cashflow to fund new models, updates, promotions, facilities, etc, etc. I know that better than most as I work in the "engine room" of a major global manufacturer. The true costs associated with the simplest change would make your mind boggle. Especially when multiplied by several plants across the globe. Bureaucracy...

Whatever they've done with the new Defo is locked in and done and dusted. We'll find out soon enough and it'll suit some and not suit others. From what I've seen it'll likely suit D4 owners looking for an update, not existing Defo owners, nor D5 owners. Simple body on frame is not something in the LR stable anymore.

[weeds]

The new Defender is unlikely to be what 'enthusiasts' want but we are not their target market and haven't been for some time.

Time to take off the rose tinted spectacles and realise that they have taken a different approach to the market and they are successful. Yes, they could have stayed with their heritage, and moved/stayed in different market sectors but they didn't.

Whatever we discuss here won't change anything so it really is a case of wait & see.
Personally I'm not even in their target market, my daily driver is a Ford (servicing/maintenance is a fraction of LR costs) and I don't need 4WD for 98% of my driving.


Colin

Yep, and I reckon they should drop the defender name.....

plenty seem to link the series and defenders as continuous production keeping heritage, design etc etc....I don’t. The change from leaf to coil certainly separates the two as totally different cars.

[DiscoMick]

It seems from the reports the new Defender will be built on an existing alloy chassis similar to the D4, use existing engines, have Terrain Response and similar systems, have a fairly square shape, and come in several body shapes. That all sounds good to me.

[gromit]

Note that I didn't say that money would stay in the bank. More intimating that they can then draw on that (huge) cashflow to fund new models, updates, promotions, facilities, etc, etc. I know that better than most as I work in the "engine room" of a major global manufacturer. The true costs associated with the simplest change would make your mind boggle. Especially when multiplied by several plants across the globe. Bureaucracy...

.

Fair enough.
I'm dealing with a major global manufacturer in Campbellfield (unfortunately not building locally any more) and I hear a few stories.
How much did Ford pay for Land Rover ? And then how much did they sell it for ?!


Colin

[DiscoClax]

I think that was "a lot" and "not much" respectively... After fixing the supplier base with a blunt object, and sinking mega-bucks in.

I know that OEM well. They fund my LR habit...

[rammypluge]

It seems from the reports the new Defender will be built on an existing alloy chassis similar to the D4, use existing engines, have Terrain Response and similar systems, have a fairly square shape, and come in several body shapes. That all sounds good to me.Did you mean D4 or D5?

[rammypluge]

I think that was "a lot" and "not much" respectively... After fixing the supplier base with a blunt object, and sinking mega-bucks in.

I know that OEM well. They fund my LR habit...Yes, but look at how much better their ford explorer became. My impression is that sometimes a company will buy another company for its intellectual property then flick it?

[DiscoMick]

I meant D4. Do you think that's wrong?

[Zeros]

Er would say I love mine it suits us for now......I’m not you normal rivet counter with blinkers on.

No need to drive a 70 series.....a drive wouldn’t influence my decision.

Think I’ve mentioned before, the last car I purchased new the salesman couldn’t believe his ears I refused a test drive. From memory my bride test drove our current defer, my previous defer my dad went and had a look to purely make sure the car existed and don’t recall him driving it, I paid for it than flew 700km grabbed the keys and drove home.

Intriguing. I’m the opposite. Driving the thing is everything. Really enjoy it. Would NEVER buy undriven, let alone unseen!

You must be Aries? [bigwhistle]

[Arapiles]

I’m not convinced they had credibility as a 4x4 leader......

If you look at what luxury SUVs the D5 is being compared to - Audi Q7, Mercedes ML, Volvo XC90 etc - none of them have any off-road ability at all. You can't go off-road with them, whereas the D5 is not only capable, it's extremely so. Even if a lot of the owners would prefer to not scratch them.

[Zeros]

No offence, but Frankly, some of you guys are kidding yourselves. I reckon you should move over to the D4 section.

A D4-like vehicle is simply NOT a Defender. If that’s what it’s going to be I agree, change the name.

A new Defender should be much closer to a Mercedes G than a D4. Anyone who thinks it can’t be done is capitulating to the urban spin.

Sure D4’s are great vehicles, but they’re not Defenders. SIMPLE.

All you Defender dudes hoping for a D4 because the D5 is rubbish and you secretly want a Range Rover in your old age have gone soft.

It’s either a Defender or it’s a D4, one or the other.

[scarry]

If you look at what luxury SUVs the D5 is being compared to - Audi Q7, Mercedes ML, Volvo XC90 etc - none of them have any off-road ability at all. You can't go off-road with them, whereas the D5 is not only capable, it's extremely so. Even if a lot of the owners would prefer to not scratch them.

Correct,but with the market they target the vehicle(D5) at,why bother with all this off road capability.

Seriously,it doesn't matter how good its off road ability is,i bet that isn't high on many buyers wish list.

Its built as an around town yuppy wagon,with maybe an occasional play on a beach somewhere.

Some models don't have low range,and this will no doubt be more common as time goes on.

The Discovery was a fantastic, family, remote area touring wagon,not anymore,that DNA has gone,for good.

Unlike an article i read about the new Evoque,where McGovern said he wanted to keep its DNA,the Discovery DNA was totally lost in the D5.

Dunno why we are all harping on about LR's direction these days,nothing we type will change their ideas.

They will continue on their merry way,and those that don't like any vehicles in their range,will have to look at other brands.

After almost 20yrs of LR's,the D4 will probably be the last LR i ever own.

Unless this new Defender,if it ever appears,is what i want,but i doubt it.

[Zeros]

Haven’t you heard Scarry? The next Defender will be a D4. Perfect.

[rick130]

Just playing Devil's Advocate for a sec, but I wonder what the old Series drivers were saying when LR went to the 90/110 in 1983?

"Bloody Range Rover suspension??!! Coil springs can you believe??!! Couldn't possibly be a work vehicle, couldn't possibly carry a load, let alone last any length of time carrying a load. It's gone soft, a city poseurs vehicle, it's not a real Land Rover. It was bad enough slipping full time 4WD into the Stage 1..."


Just saying...[bigwhistle]

[scarry]

Haven’t you heard Scarry? The next Defender will be a D4. Perfect.

Tell em their dreaming,as they say.[biggrin]

[Arapiles]

No offence, but Frankly, some of you guys are kidding yourselves. I reckon you should move over to the D4 section.

A D4-like vehicle is simply NOT a Defender. If that’s what it’s going to be I agree, change the name.

A new Defender should be much closer to a Mercedes G than a D4. Anyone who thinks it can’t be done is capitulating to the urban spin.

Sure D4’s are great vehicles, but they’re not Defenders. SIMPLE.

All you Defender dudes hoping for a D4 because the D5 is rubbish and you secretly want a Range Rover in your old age have gone soft.

It’s either a Defender or it’s a D4, one or the other.


Yes, but from the photos and the spec that were released the new Defender clearly is the new D4! It's actually the real D5, not the current one, which is clearly just a large Evoque. [bigrolf]

[JDNSW]

Just playing Devil's Advocate for a sec, but I wonder what the old Series drivers were saying when LR went to the 90/110 in 1983?

"Bloody Range Rover suspension??!! Coil springs can you believe??!! Couldn't possibly be a work vehicle, couldn't possibly carry a load, let alone last any length of time carrying a load. It's gone soft, a city poseurs vehicle, it's not a real Land Rover. It was bad enough slipping full time 4WD into the Stage 1..."


Just saying...[bigwhistle]

I have pointed this out before - when the 110 was introduced in 1983, it was essentially a Rangerover chassis with a Series body. In other words, a very similar concept to what is probably coming with the new Defender, only using the D3/4 chassis/.

And yes, there were many who saw it as the end of the Landrover as a real working vehicle. When I got my County I found out (some years later) that my extended family referred to it (behind my back) as "the Yuppymobile"! It could not possibly be a working vehicle with coils rather than leaf springs.

[DiscoMick]

I remember when the D3 came out going to a Landy club meeting where we all sat around muttering about how the D3 was not a true Landy and had gone soft and wouldn't be capable to be taken off the bitumen and it was the end of civilisation as we knew it.
Now we're saying the D4 is the last true Discovery and the D5 isn't a real Landy and nothing will replace the Defender.
I also remember when I was a kid on the farm where we had Landys and my dad bought an ex-Army Jeep which shocked the neighbouring farmers, who reckoned it would be useless.
It goes round and round...

[goingbush]

Can't wait till the Hover Landy gets introduced, wont the proper 'off roaders' be complaining then.

[rammypluge]

Can't wait till the Hover Landy gets introduced, wont the proper 'off roaders' be complaining then.The Range Droner?

[Zeros]

I remember when the D3 came out going to a Landy club meeting where we all sat around muttering about how the D3 was not a true Landy and had gone soft and wouldn't be capable to be taken off the bitumen and it was the end of civilisation as we knew it.
Now we're saying the D4 is the last true Discovery and the D5 isn't a real Landy and nothing will replace the Defender.

Problem is Mick, replacing Defender with a D4 clone is an entirely different matter from introducing a new model. If this is effectively what’s happening, Defender is not being replaced with anything.

As good as a D4 is, it’s in a different category to a Defender. ...and if that’s where the market has gone, as it seems it has, current Defenders are truly the last.

[Zeros]

Can't wait till the Hover Landy gets introduced, wont the proper 'off roaders' be complaining then.

Now you’re talking! ...I’d relinquish my Defender for a Hover Landy.

[rammypluge]

All the info i have come across says the next defender will have an alloy monocoque. If thats true, then even if the body shape has similarities to the D4, it will have significant differences to the D4.

[Zeros]

All the info i have come across says the next defender will have an alloy monocoque. If thats true, then even if the body shape has similarities to the D4, it will have significant differences to the D4.

It will be more of a D4 than a D4! [bigwhistle]

[carjunkieanon]

Now you’re talking! ...I’d relinquish my Defender for a Hover Landy.

Just think of the mess underneath as it leaks oil then blows the oil everywhere!

[Russrobe]

Dealers are in my believe are a big problem here in Australia at least I walked into a dealer and because of what I was wearing (high vis clothing) was totally ignored one salesman even commented nice car if you can afford one. Told my then boss now he owned a very large earth moving and construction company so he went in wearing his hi vis shirt shorts and work boots got the same reaction so he approached a salesman and asked to speak to management after a short discussion they were falling over him he abruptly told the manager where to stick his sale. We both went to a land rover dealer in Melbourne and brought a car there that dealer didn't mind that we were in hi vis.

Some salespeople will never understand how much money can be made getting your hands dirty.

[Russrobe]

A 7 seat S pack 3.0l Discovery is $95,000 and doesn't have the most simple tech like rain sensing wipers and auto headlights included!

SO what they've done here is slap an enormous price tag on a vehicle that has less inclusions than a top range Hyundai.

Premium price tag, for a budget build.... That was never going to work.

Halogen headlights, pfft my D3 HSE had Bi-Xenons, my base model D4 has them, this car is $20,000 more and doesn't :S

[rar110]

All the info i have come across says the next defender will have an alloy monocoque. If thats true, then even if the body shape has similarities to the D4, it will have significant differences to the D4.

I’ve posted this JLR pic up before, which provides some indication of body shape. I agree, the Defender is likely to follow the alloy body design of the D5, L494 & L405.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181201/802a7a149786988b1d15e7f398c3e381.jpg

[scarry]

A 7 seat S pack 3.0l Discovery is $95,000 and doesn't have the most simple tech like rain sensing wipers and auto headlights included!

SO what the've done here is slap an enormous price tag on a vehicle that has less inclusions than a top range hyundai.

Premium price tag, for a budget build.... That was never going to work.

Halogen headlights, pfft my D3 HSE had Bi-Xenons, my base made D4 has them, this car is $20,000 more and doesn't :S

I could do without the auto headlights and the rain sensing wipers,but i can't do without a good bar(not that ECB thing),and a proper cargo barrier,not some kind of flimsy netting dog guard.

And more importantly i need some 18' rims.

A split tailgate would be nice.

To replace mine would be a good $110K,at least,remembering i have rear air.

Then it will have huge maintenance costs,and not the best resale.

Another brand is looking a lot more favourable.

[DiscoClax]

I'm still hoping that the new "Defender" will fill the void left by the D4. All indications are it will. IFS, IRS, air suspension, boxy, practical, most capable, small overhangs, etc. Loses the separate chassis, but the D4 was a unitary on frame anyway so halfway there already. Plus the bonus of different wheelbases, and probably bodystyles :)

[Arapiles]

Now you’re talking! ...I’d relinquish my Defender for a Hover Landy.

Yes, so long as it's entirely electric.

[Zeros]

Yes, so long as it's entirely electric.

It will be 100% solar powered, with my radical new ‘solar intensifier technology’ TM. :) I’m selling it to Elon for his mars explorer LOL.

[Zeros]

I'm still hoping that the new "Defender" will fill the void left by the D4. All indications are it will. IFS, IRS, air suspension, boxy, practical, most capable, small overhangs, etc. Loses the separate chassis, but the D4 was a unitary on frame anyway so halfway there already. Plus the bonus of different wheelbases, and probably bodystyles :)

Yes we all know D4 owners wished they were really driving Defenders. Also a virtual D4 with a Defender badge will make many happy who’s better halves wouldn’t let them buy a Defender! [bigwhistle]

[Arapiles]

It will be 100% solar powered, with my radical new ‘solar intensifier technology’ TM. :) I’m selling it to Elon for his mars explorer LOL.

And you'd be able to really drive from London to Melbourne, without having to put it on a ferry.

[scarry]

Yes we all know D4 owners wished they were really driving Defenders. Also a virtual D4 with a Defender badge will make many happy who’s better halves would let them buy a Defender! [bigwhistle]

HMMm,Dunno,Mrs Scarry got in the Defender to move it one day,after 10 minutes couldn't work out where the ignition key goes[biggrin][biggrin]

She swore she wouldn't get in it's drivers seat ever again.[biggrin]


Well,yes,i can't get her out of the drivers seat of the D4.[bighmmm]

We also looked at a few other brands of vehicles a month or so ago,so now she is adamant the D4 is staying around for a few yrs yet....[bighmmm]

[Zeros]

No doubt the 2020 D4 will have a wrist strap adventure key.

Or you can can just leave the key in a Defender, carry the plip. Or leave the doors unlocked like a Defender should. Get a keyless perentie ignition.

[cjc_td5]

Yes we all know D4 owners wished they were really driving Defenders. Also a virtual D4 with a Defender badge will make many happy who’s better halves wouldn’t let them buy a Defender! [bigwhistle]What BS. Defender design was way past its use by date. Ergonomics were woeful for a new vehicle today. Nowhere for my right elbow... I own several series vehicles so I get the iconic shape, usability etc, but the Defender model was kept 20 years too long...

[loanrangie]

Under Ford ownership LR should have launched a new defender around the same time as the d3 .

[cjc_td5]

Under Ford ownership LR should have launched a new defender around the same time as the d3 .You could go all the way back to the Challenger project in the 1990s, which was a workhorse model with loosely D1 panels and proper cabin layouts...

[loanrangie]

Don't need to go that far , td5 was a good upgrade but after 5 years they could of had a fully revised vehicle ready.

[scarry]

Under Ford ownership LR should have launched a new defender around the same time as the d3 .

I bet they wouldn't have had the cash or resources to do substantial upgrades to both models.

We know they could have,maybe should have,hindsight is a wonderfull thing.

But they took the other route and decided to terminate the Deefer and build more yuppy vehicles,which seem to sell in droves,so good luck to them.

[Zeros]

What BS. Defender design was way past its use by date. Ergonomics were woeful for a new vehicle today. Nowhere for my right elbow... I own several series vehicles so I get the iconic shape, usability etc, but the Defender model was kept 20 years too long...

Funny thing is, I totally agree with you. A new Defender is well overdue. ...you have totally missed my point. What I’m saying is if the next Defender is effectively a D4 and fills the void that the D5 has created - it’s not a Defender.

[cjc_td5]

Funny thing is, I totally agree with you. A new Defender is well overdue. ...you have totally missed my point. What I’m saying is if the next Defender is effectively a D4 and fills the void that the D5 has created - it’s not a Defender.Yes I agree also. The Defender model should be retired and the new model start afresh...

[Zeros]

Yes I agree also. The Defender model should be retired and the new model start afresh...

LOL Now you’re definately trying to put words in my mouth.

The Defender name should be retired, if the next one is effectively a D4.

If however it is an all new HD work vehicle, it might warrant the name Defender being retained.

[trout1105]

If however it is an all new HD work vehicle, it might warrant the name Defender being retained.

It is highly doubtful that LR will be producing a HD Work truck as they have been targeting the luxury market for some time now.
IF they were to produce a No frills live axle truck they would struggle to sell them A, because they are a Landrover and most people perceive that brand to be unreliable and B, The Japs have pretty much got that side of the market sown up.
Personally I would Love to see a New design Defender that is driver friendly with live axles and a nice big Diesel V8 under the hood But I think that is just a pipe dream.
I am absolutely certain that LR could produce a truck that is better than the 79 series Toyotas and other Jap offerings But I doubt that they will bother to do it.
The luxury end of the market may be lucrative But most of the money is in the workhorse area with reasonably priced trucks for the farming, mining and recreational customers.

[Zeros]

But they took the other route and decided to terminate the Deefer and build more yuppy vehicles,which seem to sell in droves,so good luck to them.

Problem is, they’re not selling in droves, which is what this thread is about.

[Zeros]

The luxury end of the market may be lucrative But most of the money is in the workhorse area with reasonably priced trucks for the farming, mining and recreational customers.

Exactly, which is why Land Rover are facing a difficult future without a fairdinkum work vehicle or two. All other manuacturers have addressed the need to compete in this core market segment head-on...even Merdes Benz, the luxury saloon meister, has a work ute and the G Wagen and Delivery Vans and Camper conversions.

Over the past 10 years or so Land Rover have dumped their core brand identity of practical capable and classless, in favour of elitist bling + closed most of their regional service agents and retreated to Mayfair / Toorak / Potts Point.

If they want to sell vehicles in numbers equivalent to Roll Royce they’re doing well. But their Mayfair centric view of the world is wearing very thin for the majority. They can hide from the fact that they are perceived as unreliable and parade around as the most expensive for only so long. But the majority of people need to work for a living and need a practical vehicle to do it in.

The global muddy polo field is a figment of McGoverns imagination

[101RRS]

IF they were to produce a No frills live axle truck they would struggle to sell them A, because they are a Landrover and most people perceive that brand to be unreliable and B, The Japs have pretty much got that side of the market sown up.


Maybe in Australia but not the world - dont confuse our Toyota dominated market with the world market where their dominance is not nearly as great. Landrover are not into our market but looking what will maximise sales in the world but I do agree they stuffed up where the D5 is concerned and our response to that vehicle is similar across the world.

Garry

[rammypluge]

The global muddy polo field is a figment of McGoverns imagination
Ha ha ha ha!! Cracked me up.

I think you meant 'The global muddy polo field_carpark_is a figment of McGoverns imagination'. I saw a classic video on utube once, might try to find it.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181203/c8f0cb9fe514afe9a83aa7e05c482c91.jpg

[Zeros]

Yup! it's even spread to Adelaide. [bigrolf] says it all

[martnH]

If people still believe land Rover is a brand that makes practical utility vehicle. Or even make a 4wd that can go off-road,

May I suggest you go to the dealer and have a look (and wear your normal outdoor clothes

[grey_ghost]

There's one thing that I'd like to experience in the picture below, and it isn't the Rangie... [thumbsupbig]

[speleomike]

There's one thing that I'd like to experience in the picture below, and it isn't the Rangie... [thumbsupbig]

Both look expensive to maintain :-)

[rammypluge]

Perhaps this is a muddy polo field carpark? If this is what they are for, its not doing so well.......

YouTube (https://youtu.be/R5VobNcgRvc)

[trout1105]

Perhaps this is a muddy polo field carpark? If this is what they are for, its not doing so well.......

YouTube (https://youtu.be/R5VobNcgRvc)

Those crappy low profile road tyres is what happened there, Notice the jap 4WD just sailed past in the vid.

[DiscoMick]

Imagine a Defender with that RR 4.4V8, live axles and 16 inch wheels with tall tyres.

[rammypluge]

Jaguar Land Rover: 5000 jobs on the chopping block | CarAdvice (https://www.caradvice.com.au/712060/jaguar-land-rover-5000-jobs/)

LR responded to the criticism of it not being environmentally conscious enough in the past, seems they need to do it again.

[LRT]

Jaguar Land Rover: 5000 jobs on the chopping block | CarAdvice (https://www.caradvice.com.au/712060/jaguar-land-rover-5000-jobs/)

LR responded to the criticism of it not being environmentally conscious enough in the past, seems they need to do it again.

Haha LR...

I think they’ll find that it’s probably not worth putting all the eggs in the one basket!

“Care for a jelly mould?”

“We have Eeny, Meeny, Miny & Moe"

[tc_s1]

BBC with a good look at JLR's current situation -

Jaguar Land Rover struggling to return to top gear - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46594060

[Zeros]

Even though it was a punchy retro gap filler and desirable prospect for those with cash to splash on playthings, the V8 works Defender was announced at the worst possible time.

With nothing to show in terms of the ‘new Defender’ or its potential world-beating EV green planet credentials, lobbing a fuel guzzling relic into a dieselgate world was not what the doctor ordered. Combine that with a Chinese luxury market being so spoilt for choice re which thirsty babushka doll bubble diesel Land Rover clone to purchase for their bling collection; ‘practical’ considerations like a V8 showpony really didn’t send the right message to a world wary of Toorak tractors ripping up their lawns.

And yet, Velar could have been the perfect foil if it had been an EV!! ...it’s the future san!

Yes in the good old times everyone loves a fantasy mobile, some can even afford one. But when it comes down to it, pragmatic, frugal and functional will win out in the long run and of course it needs to look good too. All of which is why Defender is such an icon and also why Land Rover sales are stalling. Where’s the Defender??

The utilitarian Velar? Well...yes actually as it turns out. It could have been the futurist before the modernist (McGovern note to self, Modernism finished 50 years ago - it’s the old Defender stupid). Utilitarian Velar? Yes! New EV Defender...because EV is the new pragmatic utilitarian.

The new Defender should have been called Velar. It could have been a range of future models from svelte SUV to world first 1000km Range EV Hybrid dual cab ute mountain goat.

Land Rover were way too slow to upgrade Defender, despite the early red electric demo model and the blindingly obvious and stupid 20 year hiatus of ignoring the importance of updating its icon for the modern world. Land Rover is in trouble again because, Britain is too slow and stubborn to embrace the global economic truth, to the point of wanting to retreat back into its Brexit shell; China is so huge and powerful that a change of fashion and tech advances can slash sales of shiny handbags by half overnight; combine that with no big yank tank model to push back into the global centre of climate denial V8 loving super-size land-roving; and the brand built on classless vehicles capable of crossing all divides is all of a sudden stuck in an upperclass image collapse!.

Who would have thunk it? The future is in diversity for a globally diverse world! Not one Luxo model in seven different sizes

A vehicle with a diversity of functions embracing a diversity of applications - like a Swiss Army knife perhaps? ...Oh hangon that’s what Defender used to be!

A choice of ICE, HYBRID, EV, Defenders - Base Wagon / Dualcab Ute / New Design Classic, could have saved JLR right now. Let’s hope it’s not too late!

Change the name of Defender to Velar. The current Velar can be Velar Sport. Then Velar 110. Or Velar Desert. Or Velar Peak. Or whatever. Just make it something pragmatic, utilitarian with constant ground clearance, 16 inch rims and decent skinny tyres! A high-tech real Land Rover. Something other than another fancy SUV. Even Mercedes Benz has almost done it for goodness sake!

...Gerry, I’ll send you the concept design bill. ...and stop wearing that lilac jacket! Or if you must, at least put some corduroy patches on the elbows [bigwhistle][thumbsupbig]

Zeros.

[goingbush]

Well said Zeros.

[rammypluge]

Who would have thought trump taking on the chinese would hurt LR's profitability.

Regarding the trend away from diesel, it wasnt very long ago that the unresolved pollution issue made headlines. Up until that time it was being seen more and more as the future. Modern markets are tough.

[Zeros]

During the modern period we were still travelling the world in timber sailing ships.

The contemporary world has moved on ...hasn’t it? Global trade occurs in the ether now, not as a result of a treacherous 12 month voyage. That experience is now the preserve of those seeking to escape persecution by the darker aspects of the global economy.

Who wouldn’t have thought the worlds super powers would influence everything everywhere? It’s a world war by finance. Wars are the cause of many casualties.

We’ve known and debated for how many decades that burning oil is unhealthy for our planet? Everyone just assumed it would run out. Actually peak oil is yet to come...when no one wants it anymore.

‘Modern’ industry is a dinosaur. It’s extinct.

The future is ALL in renewable energy. There is nothing modern about it.

[donh54]

Regarding the arrival of "peak oil" - I was reading an article a couple of years ago (sorry, can't remember where from). They stated that the earlier hypothesis was actually correct, if fuel had stayed around the same price point. It is costing more to extract than the old prices could sustain, but with increased prices, as well as new methods, a lot of the lower quality stuff is now worth getting at. The advent of things like shale oil, CSG, etc are helping to eke out the oil supply as well.
Filling the tank in my current vehicle now costs more than the monthly payment was on my first new car!

[DiscoMick]

LR needs those hybrids and EVs now, not in 2020.
As for Brexit, I see they've already moved production of the Discovery range to their new plant in Slovakia, which should cut costs and avoid the likely 10% EU tariff on British products after Brexit. Or the English upper class could realise its stupidity and cancel Brexit.

[Zeros]

Yes hopefully if / when the Defender is announced on the 27th??? There will be at least a hybrid version if not full EV, otherwise sales might stall from the start... I wonder if this is the real reason they're taking so long to launch it. The rapid speed of EV design and take up over the past year alone, along with so many major cities declaring they'll ban diesels in the near future, would have had a huge effect on their launch planning.

There is no sign of Diesel prices coming down as a result of the above, although perhaps the consistent upwards trend at the moment is more about the holiday period approaching, than world oil prices? Either way $1.70L is looking like the norm! and why 10c+ more than unleaded?

The usual... "The major factors driving higher prices were an increase in international crude oil and refined petrol prices, and a lower Australian-US dollar exchange rate," ACCC chair Rod Sims.

The other thing that could happen with a hard Brexit by default, which is looking more and more likely - is that the value of the british pound might plummet, making Land Rovers more affordable elsewhere by default.

Hopefully though, the disaster of the Brexit debate will lead to another vote! you never know.

[DiscoMick]

There is already a hybrid Range Rover for sale, so I believe they are going to use that technology in all their vehicles from 2020, including the Defender.

[101RRS]

The company is not Land Rover, it is Jaguar Land Rover - many Jaguar and Range Rover models are built on the same production line and some models made outside of the UK. JLR already has considerable experience in making electric cars - there is a RRS hybrid and Jacuar has the iPace which is more than a match for Tesla in its technology.

So JLR already is a front runner in the technology and will continue to do so - in due course I would assume that this technolgy will filter down across to JLR landrover models.

However, diesel will be around for many years - maybe not in the UK for passenger vehicles but for heavy haulage and for areas outside Europe, diesels will still be here.

garry

[JDNSW]

Filled up in town today - diesel prices down compared to last fillup. World oil prices are the lowest for quite a while - mainly because the USA has become a net exporter thanks to shale oil production.

[tc_s1]

BBC News - Jaguar Land Rover to cut up to 5,000 jobs
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46810473