MUNGO MAN...SHOULD WE GIVING THIS MORE PRIORITY?

[ramblingboy42]

The oldest known culture on earth.....though I heard a 60,000yo skull may have been unearthed recently in Turkey......represented by Mungo Man has apparently been given little priority by our government.

A relatively expensive monument to Captain Cook is being built.

An expensive extension to the National War Museum has been granted.

Yet Mungo Man remains forgotten. Historically, this should be given more , much more national and international credence. People from all over the world should be able to see at least a monument to the same scale or more than Capt Cook.
Mungo Man is home, but where should he rest? Calls for a memorial for the oldest Australian ever discovered - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-27/growing-calls-for-memorial-for-mungo-man-oldest-australian/10551858)

[Eevo]

no.

[laney]

No

[debruiser]

TBH, I have heard of Mungo man, but dont know what he is. I shall have to do some reading!

[austastar]

Hi
There is already quite extensive information and displays in the visitors' centre at Mungo National Park.
The skeletal remains were handed back to local indigenous people who would probably be decedents .
I feel it is their decision.
Cheers

[bln]

Yes - definitely. Why wouldn’t we - not only is it archeologically and culturally significant for the human race but Mungo Man is one of the most significant finds in Australian History.

[Eevo]

Yes - definitely. Why wouldn’t we - not only is it archeologically and culturally significant for the human race but Mungo Man is one of the most significant finds in Australian History.


what tangible benefits does it bring?

[Zeros]

Who defines what a tangible benefit is?

[87County]

what tangible benefits does it bring?


Very definitely the respecting and learning about the first inhabitants and from their descendants bring both cultural and practical benefits to all people.

What possible benefits (tangible or otherwise) can yet another memorial to Cook bring?

[DiscoMick]

What do the traditional owners of the land where he was found think?

[87County]

What do the traditional owners of the land where he was found think?


FWIK, they're not entirely happy with the way that the uni anthropologists have handled the discoveries.

If you've ever been to Lake Mungo you will have seen that you need to envision in a far different era from the present, a time when it had a wetter climate, the lakes were fresh water and teeming with fish and birds were in abundance - it seems like it was a veritable supermarket for the people who had evolved with the land.

[Eevo]

Very definitely the respecting and learning about the first inhabitants and from their descendants bring both cultural and practical benefits to all people.

What possible benefits (tangible or otherwise) can yet another memorial to Cook bring?

how exactly is it going to be cultural and practical benefits to all people?

[101RRS]

They have a whole National Park dedicated to Mungo man - that is pretty good recognition.

[bln]

how exactly is it going to be cultural and practical benefits to all people?
Could you not say that about any museum, art gallery or even the war memorial. It helps us reflect on our past and to better understand our history and past culture. I understand that its not for everyone but then who hasn’t visited the war memorial. I have visited Mungo Lake and I thought it was amazing - the evidence showed that the aboriginals at that time were over 6’ tall and could sprint as fast as the current 100m world record. Nice camp ground there too - well worth a few days.

[Marty90]

They have a whole National Park dedicated to Mungo man - that is pretty good recognition.I think it's the other way around. I don't think they put mungo man on exhibition. Didn't when I took my boys out there about eight years ago. I got the impression they didn't much like us being there.

[bob10]

Mungo Lady, and Mungo Man.


Mungo Lady and Mungo Man | Share Mungo Culture | Visit Mungo National Park (http://www.visitmungo.com.au/mungo-lady-mungo-man)

[bob10]

I think it's the other way around. I don't think they put mungo man on exhibition. Didn't when I took my boys out there about eight years ago. I got the impression they didn't much like us being there.


This could explain about the remains.

Mungo Lady and Mungo Man | Share Mungo Culture | Visit Mungo National Park (http://www.visitmungo.com.au/aboriginal-remains)

[bob10]

Where are Mungo Man and Mungo Lady now?

Mungo Lady and Mungo Man | Share Mungo Culture | Visit Mungo National Park (http://www.visitmungo.com.au/where-are-they-now)

[Pickles2]

I have been there, and I had a lengthy period of interaction with the three Aboriginal guides that were "interacting" with us,....REALLY INTERESTING & DOWN TO EARTH people.
We spoke about "The Mungo Man" but they didn't place any particular accent on him, because there was so much more Aboriginal Culture to be spoken about & absorbed there.
A couple of things I do remember, we were walking about, and one of the guides pointed out a "black" patch in the sand, which he said was the remains of an Aboriginal "Fireplace". He said to us "You guys have McDonalds, we also had our food on the run, & would cook it on a fire when we wanted to eat, the remains of which you are seeing". There are lots of things I could say about these guys, but one other I will relate, we went on the "Sunset Tour",..roadside afternoon tea provided on the way, and when we got to Mungo there was champagne. On the way back, there was a bottle left over, which these guys gave to Wifey & Me, & which we very much enjoyed on the coach back to Mildura.
If ya're in Mildura, & ya haven't been to Mungo, ya DEFINITELY need to go, and the only people to go with is the Aboriginal staffed Harry Nanya Tours. These guys really know their stuff.
Pickles.

[trout1105]

Very definitely the respecting and learning about the first inhabitants and from their descendants bring both cultural and practical benefits to all people.

What possible benefits (tangible or otherwise) can yet another memorial to Cook bring?

FFS Mungo man would have leada pretty insignificant life and his only claim to fame is his are the oldest bones found so far Cook however lead a rather significant life.
IF Mungo mans descendants feel that he needs a memorial/monument let them them pay for it themselves.

[Zeros]

If any of my ancestors remains had been found to be nationally significant and purloined by a university without my permission - I'd expect that the university and the nation would pay for their return and to be interred as per my families wishes.

There is nothing insignificant about Mungo Man or any of the other important human / cultural heritage at Mungo National Park. Diverse cultural understanding is central to our knowledge of humanity. We are all inseparable from it.

The Paakantji, Mutthi Mutthi and Ngyaampa people should be afforded every respect members of the oldest continuous cultures in the world and those whose knowledge of this continent far outweighs the nanosecond of post-colonial 'research' that has been conducted in the past 100 years at Mungo.

Many Paakantji, Mutthi Mutthi and Ngyaampa people are rangers at Mungo and conduct extremely informative public tours of the site, combining Aboriginal and Western scientific knowledge and research.

Mungo is an extraordinary place and is a far richer experience if you make the time to listen to the wisdom of the people whose country it has always been.

[JoeFriend]

They have a whole National Park dedicated to Mungo man - that is pretty good recognition.It should be WE have a whole NP dedicated to Mungo Man.

[JoeFriend]

FFS Mungo man would have leada pretty insignificant life and his only claim to fame is his are the oldest bones found so far Cook however lead a rather significant life.
IF Mungo mans descendants feel that he needs a memorial/monument let them them pay for it themselves.Depends on what side of the coin you sit. Cook did nothing other than 'discover' a land already inhabited and declared it terra nullius. He sailed somewhere, woopdy doo to some, and I would wager to a lot of the original inhabitants they would have liked it to have not happened.

All Cook did of note was to decide that the people who inhabited the land weren't people because they chose to live with the land.

That and his original task was to help chart Venus's path which then allowed astronomers to calculate the distance between the earth and the sun.

[Eevo]

Depends on what side of the coin you sit. Cook did nothing other than 'discover' a land already inhabited and declared it terra nullius. He sailed somewhere, woopdy doo to some, and I would wager to a lot of the original inhabitants they would have liked it to have not happened.

All Cook did of note was to decide that the people who inhabited the land weren't people because they chose to live with the land.

That and his original task was to help chart Venus's path which then allowed astronomers to calculate the distance between the earth and the sun.

i dont think this should be about cook.
having said that
cooks voyage opened the way for the colonisation of Australia and the birth of a nation

[JoeFriend]

i dont think this should be about cook.
having said that
cooks voyage opened the way for the colonisation of Australia and the birth of a nationThere were already quite a few nations here before he arrived.

It was already colonised, there were people here living.

[DiscoMick]

I think the traditional owners should be the ones whose wishes are put first in relation to Mungo Man. What do they think would be appropriate?

[Eevo]

There were already quite a few nations here before he arrived.

It was already colonised, there were people here living.

there were tribes, not nations.

either way, a few one was born, prospered and became dominant.

[bln]

FFS Mungo man would have leada pretty insignificant life and his only claim to fame is his are the oldest bones found so far Cook however lead a rather significant life.
IF Mungo mans descendants feel that he needs a memorial/monument let them them pay for it themselves.

"let them them pay for it themselves" - you are obviously saying that you are not a part of "them" but rather a descendent of Cook rather than "them". I think that Mungo Man would be able to lay claim to being one of the first Australians. I'm proud of being an Australian and I reckon our indigenous people including Mungo Man have far more relevance to Australian history than a couple of hundred years since Cook landed. I doubt whether mungo Man thought his life was insignificant.

[Eevo]

so what did the mungo man actually do?

[Ferret]

so what did the mungo man actually do?

Activist. Left some bones for future generations to argue the social significance of.

[JoeFriend]

there were tribes, not nations.

either way, a few one was born, prospered and became dominant.Tribes and bands are all interchangeable with nation in modern day language. They were once different and tribes/bands were used to describe non-western nations, often in a derogatory way.

And again whether or not it is better would be based on your point of view as I have stated previously.

And one rose to prominence based on force and killing - so yes it was a superior force, not necessarily a superior way of living. And they did it with no regard to the culture that was already there.

In current times, we see the opposite, whereby the white colonists insist that anyone coming to settle must live in the white way and existing culture, and can't bring their culture and force and see which prevails as the strongest.

[Zeros]

i dont think this should be about cook.
having said that
cooks voyage opened the way for the colonisation of Australia and the birth of a nation

Yawn

[Zeros]

There were already quite a few nations here before he arrived.

It was already colonised, there were people here living.

More more than 250 nations infact. The continent currently called Australia has always been a multinational continent more diverse than Europe and the equal of Africa. To think of Australia as one single nation is actually quite ridiculous. It’s a continent.

[Zeros]

there were tribes, not nations.

either way, a few one was born, prospered and became dominant.

What the?

Nope. Nations. Always ‘were’. Always will be. It’s not historical.

[bob10]

What the?

Nope. Nations. Always ‘were’. Always will be. It’s not historical.

I think it was language groups and within those groups, skin groups. I don't think our indigenous people had back then the concept of Nation. It's complicated, and I'm too tired to go into it.

[Zeros]

I think it was language groups and within those groups, skin groups. I don't think our indigenous people had back then the concept of Nation. It's complicated, and I'm too tired to go into it.

Well to keep it really simple, it’s where the term First Nations comes from.

Yes, the concept of a nation, like all other English language words / concepts, is inadequate to articulate the world view of nations with 250+ distinct languages.

We all have a lot to learn.

Have a good sleep Bob and we can continue discussing in the morning [thumbsupbig]

[manic]

We have so many people living in an urban bubble, dependant on multinationals, they have no connection with the land. Its very unaustralian!

Id like to learn more about Mungo man. Sounds like an interesting place to visit.

[Zeros]

We have so many people living in an urban bubble, dependant on multinationals, they have no connection with the land. Its very unaustralian!

Id like to learn more about Mungo man. Sounds like an interesting place to visit.

Cool Manic. Mungo is a powerful place. Give it time and it will seep into your bones.

There are some magnificent secluded bush camps over the back of the main salt lake too. Many don’t find them, but take it from me it’s the place to stay.

[DiscoMick]

Search 'AIATSIS Map of Indigenous Australia' and see a map of indigenous language groups, tribes and nations.
The link won't copy on my phone - sorry.

[JoeFriend]

I think it was language groups and within those groups, skin groups. I don't think our indigenous people had back then the concept of Nation. It's complicated, and I'm too tired to go into it.It is usually the way when different cultures and different languages meet.

Of course they had no concept of what the western world thought of as a 'nation' - they lived differently, but in no way was it of less importance (I am not saying that is what you were inferring though).

Multiple tribes/clans would come together with a shared group of tribal elders to make collective decisions, mutual defence and protection of their land and to trade. Pretty much what a nation state is really. Granted not on the same scale but their way of life wasn't to suck up resources and own the most stuff, be the most powerful etc.

[DiscoMick]

I notice there is a joint parliamentary proposal to establish a national resting place in Canberra for Aboriginal and Torres Strait islander remains 'as a place of commemoration, healing and reflection' so maybe Mungo Man and Woman could go there.

[Zeros]

I notice there is a joint parliamentary proposal to establish a national resting place in Canberra for Aboriginal and Torres Strait islander remains 'as a place of commemoration, healing and reflection' so maybe Mungo Man and Woman could go there.

Its often inappropriate to live, let alone be buried, in someone else’s country.

Canberra is Ngunnawal country, with many neighbouring nations. It is a long way from Paakantji, Mutthi Mutthi and Ngiyaampaa country (Mungo).

The parties of the joint parliament need to begin by pre-selecting more Aboriginal people.

This is not political, it’s a cultural imperative.

‘Healing and reflection’ should begin with the basic fact that Aboriginal people’s identities are inseparable from their country / nation. As such it’s no simple matter to relocate to another country for the convenience of the Australian Parliament, which doesn’t fully recognise all Aboriginal nations anyway.

[bob10]

Well to keep it really simple, it’s where the term First Nations comes from.

Yes, the concept of a nation, like all other English language words / concepts, is inadequate to articulate the world view of nations with 250+ distinct languages.

We all have a lot to learn.

Have a good sleep Bob and we can continue discussing in the morning [thumbsupbig]

I think you will find " first Nations " is an American term, for native Americans. Given to them by Europeans, with the euro. mindset. I found this site, which gives some insight to the indigenous culture.

Aboriginal Culture (http://www.aboriginalculture.com.au/introduction.html)

[bob10]

The longest continuing religion in the World, and I like the description of Aboriginal culture as advanced, and western civilisation as developing.

Aboriginal Culture (http://www.aboriginalculture.com.au/introduction2.html)

[bob10]

Aboriginal Culture (http://www.aboriginalculture.com.au/introduction3.html)

[bob10]

Now, I know this is not directly related to Mungo man, but if we are going to put him up as representing Aboriginal culture, we must first have a basic understanding of that culture.

Aboriginal Culture (http://www.aboriginalculture.com.au/introduction4.html)

[bob10]

Definition of " skin " groups, and clan culture.

Aboriginal Culture - Bags, Baskets, and Containers (http://www.aboriginalculture.com.au/social_organisation.html)

[bob10]

I think the " mother-in-law " rule would be popular in our culture.

Aboriginal Culture - Bags, Baskets, and Containers (http://www.aboriginalculture.com.au/social_organisation2.html)

[bob10]

Whoever said they were simple savages ,back in the day, was just showing their ignorance.

Aboriginal Culture - Bags, Baskets, and Containers (http://www.aboriginalculture.com.au/social_organisation3.html)

[bob10]

The study of Aboriginal society is complicated, almost too complicated for our tidy minds. Mungo man does not belong to us, and can only be shared with us with his clans approval. Just my thoughts.

[bob10]

I notice there is a joint parliamentary proposal to establish a national resting place in Canberra for Aboriginal and Torres Strait islander remains 'as a place of commemoration, healing and reflection' so maybe Mungo Man and Woman could go there.

That is good idea, from our point of view. I'm sure if you read the small contribution I posted about Aboriginal culture, you will begin to see how difficult it is for Europeans to legislate such things as an Aboriginal parliament , as part of our political structure. For a start , who will be the leader of that parliament? [ I may have this word wrong, but I'm sure you know what I mean]An initiated tribal elder? From which clan? Would that represent all of our indigenous people? Someone from an Aboriginal community? Some one who has assimilated into " our " society? Would you take a representative from each group? This Nation will never move forward until we , as a collective, find those answers.

We pride ourselves on our egalitarianism , mateship, and standing firm under adversity. BUT, we will never be one Australia, under the Southern Cross, without finding a way to meld together all our ethnic diversity, free of hate, racial divide, and all that goes with that. I'm thinking we should join with NZ, and have them run our country. [bighmmm] Not much about Mungo Man, but it must be said.

[DiscoMick]

There are indigenous MPs on the joint parliamentary committee. Let's see what the people themselves think is best.

[bob10]

There are indigenous MPs on the joint parliamentary committee. Let's see what the people themselves think is best.

Who do they represent? edit. I agree with you , the people should decide. Can you see the absolute can of worms coming to that decision. We need some one with the wisdom of Solomon. Any ideas?

[laney]

So do I now who mungo man is no I don't do I care who he is no I don't I think we are all Australians regardless of where we came from or our ancestors came from do we need another shrine,museums or anything else to show all how different we are I personally would prefer to just call us Australian and not put different racers and caltures in social boxes just my thoughts.

[Zeros]

This is what usually happens:
Indigenous advisory body rejected by PM in 'kick in the guts' for advocates - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-26/indigenous-advisory-body-proposal-rejected-by-cabinet/9087856)

[Zeros]

Who do they represent? edit. I agree with you , the people should decide. Can you see the absolute can of worms coming to that decision. We need some one with the wisdom of Solomon. Any ideas?

The wisdom of Solomon won't work, it's too closely related to Catholicism and the western cultural presumptive.

[bob10]

The wisdom of Solomon won't work, it's too closely related to Catholicism and the western cultural presumptive.

Yes, of course. Which brings us to the Aboriginal culture is advanced, and the Western culture is Developing. Can you imagine the privileged in the Gentlemen's club in London, choking on their gin & tonic, over that.

[Zeros]

Yes, of course. Which brings us to the Aboriginal culture is advanced, and the Western culture is Developing. Can you imagine the privileged in the Gentlemen's club in London, choking on their gin & tonic, over that.

Some of the privileged here are bad enough.

...comparatively 'Australian' culture (as distinct from Aboriginal cultures) is probably the least advanced (being the youngest) on the planet...we have a lot to learn from the oldest cultures on the planet.

[bob10]

Some of the privileged here are bad enough.

...comparatively 'Australian' culture (as distinct from Aboriginal cultures) is probably the least advanced (being the youngest) on the planet...we have a lot to learn from the oldest cultures on the planet.

I wish I had said that. So true. Here's something. Australian culture is deeper than the media , who control our shallow culture, reports on. However, we , for the most part, pin our flag on sports. It may be no coincidence that our best performed and respected sports people are women. It may be time for a female PM. Worth a try. And I have to say, any people who base their culture on a Barry Mackenzie movie, have either a finely developed sense of humour, or are destined to be the butt of jokes throughout Asia.

[Zeros]

Cheers Bob. Thanks for your insights too.

[trout1105]

Some of the privileged here are bad enough.

...comparatively 'Australian' culture (as distinct from Aboriginal cultures) is probably the least advanced (being the youngest) on the planet...we have a lot to learn from the oldest cultures on the planet.

What have we to gain from a culture that kept people in the stone age for 40,000 years?

[Zeros]

The ‘stone age’ is an imperial construct designed to historicise and capitalise world views.

With mining as one of the most significant industries in the world, our reliance on fossil fuels, iron ore, etc, we continue in ‘the stone age’.

But arguably now...within a few short centuries, we are destroying the planet with our stone-age capitalisation, our ‘progress’. Whilst Aboriginal people have lived much more in harmony with the ecosystem for 40, 50, 60,000+ years.

Perpetual growth? Progress? Racing to where? ...we all live here, on this planet, together...and we’re ****ing it up. For what? A faster car? A taller building? A bigger boat?

I suggest we have a LOT to learn about standing still, re-valuing who and where we are, the planets environment that makes life possible, the richness of our cultural diversity.

We have a lot to learn from those who are the oldest thriving cultures on the planet. They know this country better than anyone.

The earth is a stone. Everything we do or make is of the earth. We are all ‘stone-age people’. Where else are we going to go?

[ramblingboy42]

One of our supposedly more enlightened human beings Elon Musk suggests Mars

We could all go there and leave the earth to re-establish itself it again with it's oldest inhabitants. They could do it. We can't.

I wonder if we could **** Mars as quickly as we ****ed the earth.

Thats why Mungo Man is significant as a founder of the people who could untangle the mess we've made of this beautiful planet.

[bln]

What have we to gain from a culture that kept people in the stone age for 40,000 years?

Good question - put another way do you think that our current western civilisation will last 40,000 years. I doubt it. One of the most amazing things is that the aboriginal culture has lasted so long and is still in existence - the longest exisiting culture ever. We should learn from their example how to manage and live within our environment rather than destroying it. In the last 200 years since Cook we have managed to destroy our ecology, waterways, forests. Our farmlands are degraded, our fish stocks diminishing, the water we need to survive is becoming less available and of poorer quality. We haven’t been able to find that balance for sustainable existence. In fact you would have to say that modern culture hasn’t learnt from the past at all.

[DiscoMick]

I wish I had said that. So true. Here's something. Australian culture is deeper than the media , who control our shallow culture, reports on. However, we , for the most part, pin our flag on sports. It may be no coincidence that our best performed and respected sports people are women. It may be time for a female PM. Worth a try. And I have to say, any people who base their culture on a Barry Mackenzie movie, have either a finely developed sense of humour, or are destined to be the butt of jokes throughout Asia.At least the female cricketers are winning.

[Eevo]

One of our supposedly more enlightened human beings Elon Musk suggests Mars

quite happy for Elon to go to mars.

[Redback]

Good question - put another way do you think that our current western civilisation will last 65,000 years. I doubt it. One of the most amazing things is that the aboriginal culture has lasted so long and is still in existence - the longest exisiting culture ever. We should learn from their example how to manage and live within our environment rather than destroying it. In the last 200 years since Cook we have managed to destroy our ecology, waterways, forests. Our farmlands are degraded, our fish stocks diminishing, the water we need to survive is becoming less available and of poorer quality. We haven’t been able to find that balance for sustainable existence. In fact you would have to say that modern culture hasn’t learnt from the past at all.

Small correction bln

I have the utmost respect for our indigenous Australians, and they have interacted with many of the surrounding cultures of the Australian continent, including the Dutch who landed here over 400yrs ago, and who traded with the indigenous people of the northern parts of Australia for over 100yrs before Cook was even born.

If the indigenous people agree with what they want to do about Mungo Man, then I don't see why not, the more we know about the history of this country the better.

[DiscoMick]

I doubt if current Australian society will survive 65,000 years. We'll have trashed the place long before then. Only Wall-E will still be here, repairing the damage.

[Pickles2]

So do I now who mungo man is no I don't do I care who he is no I don't I think we are all Australians regardless of where we came from or our ancestors came from do we need another shrine,museums or anything else to show all how different we are I personally would prefer to just call us Australian and not put different racers and caltures in social boxes just my thoughts.
Absolutely SPOT ON my friend.
I've got no time for "Separatists, them & us, White Fellas, Our mobs, First Nation, Invasion Day,", or ANY derogatory comments about first Euro settlers,....etc etc etc, I'm just sick of it.
As far as I'm concerned, this great country does not "belong" to anyone tribe, people, Euro settlers etc etc, ra ra and all the rest of the stuff that goes on.
This is "öur" country, and until BOTH sides come to terms with that, nothing will be resolved,....IMHO of course.
Pickles.

[DiscoMick]

Problem with that is our mob invaded, there was a 150 year war, our mob did our best to wipe the landowners out, but they survived, they never surrendered and no treaty was ever signed, so it's still invaders Vs landowners. So we're not all Australians. History doesn't lie.
We will never become one mob until this is sorted. Other countries, including NZ, have done it, and so should we.

[Pickles2]

Problem with that is our mob invaded, there was a 150 year war, our mob did our best to wipe the landowners out, but they survived, they never surrendered and no treaty was ever signed, so it's still invaders Vs landowners. So we're not all Australians. History doesn't lie.
We will never become one mob until this is sorted. Other countries, including NZ, have done it, and so should we.
No way, NZ have done nothing any more than we've done.
Pickles.

[DiscoMick]

They have a treaty - we don't. Pretty simple.

[Pickles2]

They have a treaty - we don't. Pretty simple.
In practical terms, it doesn't mean a thing, for anyone...and practical REAL differences are what I'm talking, and that treaty means absolutely nothing to those who might think it will make a difference, or an improvement, to their lives, such an improvement only being gained by REAL moves by BOTH sides.....not something written on a piece of paper where everyone goes ra ra ra.
Pickles.

[bob10]

Good question - put another way do you think that our current western civilisation will last 40,000 years. I doubt it. One of the most amazing things is that the aboriginal culture has lasted so long and is still in existence - the longest exisiting culture ever. We should learn from their example how to manage and live within our environment rather than destroying it. In the last 200 years since Cook we have managed to destroy our ecology, waterways, forests. Our farmlands are degraded, our fish stocks diminishing, the water we need to survive is becoming less available and of poorer quality. We haven’t been able to find that balance for sustainable existence. In fact you would have to say that modern culture hasn’t learnt from the past at all.

I wish I was smart enough to post an answer like that. That's it in a nutshell. Thank you. signed- Wowser.

[bob10]

Problem with that is our mob invaded, there was a 150 year war, our mob did our best to wipe the landowners out, but they survived, they never surrendered and no treaty was ever signed, so it's still invaders Vs landowners. So we're not all Australians. History doesn't lie.
We will never become one mob until this is sorted. Other countries, including NZ, have done it, and so should we.

We will never earn the right to be one Nation under the Southern cross, with equal rights for all, until we have the courage to sort this out. Today I gained faith in our future generations. Putting us to shame.

[JoeFriend]

I think you will find " first Nations " is an American term, for native Americans. Given to them by Europeans, with the euro. mindset. I found this site, which gives some insight to the indigenous culture.

Aboriginal Culture (http://www.aboriginalculture.com.au/introduction.html)

I replied to this before reading the rest of the thread. Sozza

[JoeFriend]

This is likely one of the best conversations on Aulro about this topic - with a few exceptions here and there.

We have still not removed terra nullius, we have not legally acknowledged that there was a group of people here. NZ has, and in their national anthem they recognise their heritage and traditional owners. It's hard for us with so many different languages, but I believe that is the point others are making.

This is vs them must stop, I agree on that. But much like the gay marriage debate you have the majority putting down the minority.

It is quite easy to formally recognise the traditional owners, sorry was a start but let's just take it the next step. It isn't hard, and won't change the world, it won't burn down.

Aboriginal studies in school is horrendous (I graduated high school in 2003) and since primary school history was all about European history for the most part, or ancient history (which they defined as Egypt FFS).

We can do so much to learn and teach people about the culture of Australia, as it has been for the last 40,000 years instead of how it has been since Cook landed.

It won't change the older people's minds, but I don't really care about them. They can get on board or not, they will die out soon enough. It's about ensuring the next generation are more respectful than mine, as mine is more respectful than the one before.

Life is about ensuring the next generation has it as good or better than you, not preserving you way of life at the cost of theirs. That statement covers alot of points(climate change and the like), but it isn't hard to want to teach the next generation to have a little respect for the traditional owners, to keep it on point.

[laney]

The problem is we can't come together while we have an our mob their mob this is a them and us attitude and it instantly puts us at odds with our fellow Australians a treaty will fix nothing as the real fair dinkum aboriginals don't want that and don't care about that. Now I know a few elders who say that they only want to be treated the same as every one else as one elder said to me some time ago the only difference between me and him is skin colour we still bleed red but we still have similar thoughts and dreams. As a culture we need to stop telling people how they should feel about the past because the real aboriginal race don't care they just want to move on as my elder friend said you were born here you are just as much of this county as I am and he's right as for our current immigrants they only want to live the dream and raise their kids who will in the most part will become good citizens of OUR county.

[bob10]

This is likely one of the best conversations on Aulro about this topic - with a few exceptions here and there.

We have still not removed terra nullius, we have not legally acknowledged that there was a group of people here. NZ has, and in their national anthem they recognise their heritage and traditional owners. It's hard for us with so many different languages, but I believe that is the point others are making.

This is vs them must stop, I agree on that. But much like the gay marriage debate you have the majority putting down the minority.

It is quite easy to formally recognise the traditional owners, sorry was a start but let's just take it the next step. It isn't hard, and won't change the world, it won't burn down.

Aboriginal studies in school is horrendous (I graduated high school in 2003) and since primary school history was all about European history for the most part, or ancient history (which they defined as Egypt FFS).

We can do so much to learn and teach people about the culture of Australia, as it has been for the last 40,000 years instead of how it has been since Cook landed.

It won't change the older people's minds, but I don't really care about them. They can get on board or not, they will die out soon enough. It's about ensuring the next generation are more respectful than mine, as mine is more respectful than the one before.

Life is about ensuring the next generation has it as good or better than you, not preserving you way of life at the cost of theirs. That statement covers alot of points(climate change and the like), but it isn't hard to want to teach the next generation to have a little respect for the traditional owners, to keep it on point.

Amen to that. The next generation do not have much to respect about this present one. One shining light is our future generations stood up today.

[DiscoMick]

A treaty is a step towards moving towards equality.

[bob10]

The problem is we can't come together while we have an our mob their mob this is a them and us attitude and it instantly puts us at odds with our fellow Australians a treaty will fix nothing as the real fair dinkum aboriginals don't want that and don't care about that. Now I know a few elders who say that they only want to be treated the same as every one else as one elder said to me some time ago the only difference between me and him is skin colour we still bleed red but we still have similar thoughts and dreams. As a culture we need to stop telling people how they should feel about the past because the real aboriginal race don't care they just want to move on as my elder friend said you were born here you are just as much of this county as I am and he's right as for our current immigrants they only want to live the dream and raise their kids who will in the most part will become good citizens of OUR county.

Fair call. But I think our indigenous people will never be treated as equals, because mainstream Australia does not regard them as equals. And, how do we make a treaty with 450 language groups, hundreds more skin groups, no Kings, no Queens, unlike in NZ,. How do you choose who takes the lead on behalf of the Aboriginal population? We can not really compare our situation to NZ 's , it is chalk and cheese. Without being disrespectful in any way, it is like trying to herd cats.

[bob10]

Worth a read. The treaty of Waitangi, the principles.

Principles of the Treaty | Waitangi Tribunal (https://waitangitribunal.govt.nz/treaty-of-waitangi/principles-of-the-treaty/)

[Zeros]

We begin by not being defeatist. By setting out as we aim to proceed.

[bob10]

We begin by not being defeatist. By setting out as we aim to proceed.

Shades of Winston Churchill, now there was a leader, like him or not.

[bob10]

The options in the treaty of Waitangi.


"The Treaty envisaged a place in New Zealand for two peoples with their own laws and cus*toms, in which the interface was governed by partnership and mutual respect. Inherent in the Treaty relationship was that Māori, whose laws and autonomy were guaranteed and protected, would have options when settlement and the new society developed. They could choose to continue their tikanga and way of life largely as it was, to assimilate to the new society and economy, or to combine elements of both and walk in two worlds. Their choices were to be free and unconstrained."

I think the main difference between Maori and Aboriginal , with the European experience , is that the Aboriginal clans lost their identity. In the most part , clan groups were forced off their land, to be placed in missions, or enclaves, with other groups of different language and skin groups. The clans stopped being independent, Government , probably with a guilty conscience threw money at the problem, and created a welfare state. And Australia blamed the Aborigines ! They lost their identity. The young grew up with a definite lack of leadership, unlike Maori . Having said that, during the Maori wars, some tribes linked with the British , and fought against their Kin. We were lucky that Australia is such a large place, and tribal groups had not evolved to band together, in times of War.

[Zeros]

The big difference between Maori and Aboriginal people is that Aboriginal people are indigenous to this continent, whereas the Maori, from Polynesia, settled New Zealand.

If anything, Aboriginal people have even more right to a Treaty.

Aboriginal nations all over this continent have ot lost their culture or identity. But Australia’s continuing colonial attitude is still causing that loss every day. A Treaty has never been more overdue. The Treaty of Waitangi is a good place to start.

However, whenever a process gets underway towards a Treaty, the government quashes it.
- EG: Why the government was wrong to reject an Indigenous 'Voice to Parliament' (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/why-the-government-was-wrong-to-reject-an-indigenous-voice-to-parliament-86408)

[bob10]

Who were the first humans to reach New Zealand? Certainly they arrived thousands of years after Australia's first people.

Who were the first humans to reach New Zealand? | Stuff.co.nz (https://www.stuff.co.nz/science/100629585/dna-who-were-the-first-humans-to-reach-aotearoa)

[bob10]

[QUOTE=Zeros;2861677]The big difference between Maori and Aboriginal people is that Aboriginal people are indigenous to this continent, whereas the Maori, from Polynesia, settled New Zealand.

I really have to correct on that on a point of order, Aboriginal people are not, in fact, indigenous to this Nation. The dictionary describes indigenous as originating in a country. The Aboriginal population migrated from Africa, thru Asia, and over the land bridge when the seas were lower, somewhere around 60,000/70,000 years ago. They did not originate here. However they were here, when Cook arrived.

[Erik68]

My 2 bobs worth.
I would like to see in Canberra a museum /information area set up with separate area's to represent and inform modern people all the aboriginal tribes/nations.
Canberra is meant to be the capital of modern australia so it would be nice to go to one place to find out about ancient australia. We get taught more European and usa history in school than anything to do with pre European australian history.

[trout1105]

My 2 bobs worth.
I would like to see in Canberra a museum /information area set up with separate area's to represent and inform modern people all the aboriginal tribes/nations.
Canberra is meant to be the capital of modern australia so it would be nice to go to one place to find out about ancient australia. We get taught more European and usa history in school than anything to do with pre European australian history.

What pre European history not too much noteworthey happened in the previous 40,000 years that I am aware of.

[Erik68]

What pre European history not too much noteworthey happened in the previous 40,000 years that I am aware of.Hence the reason to have it in Canberra

[Zeros]

[QUOTE=Zeros;2861677]The big difference between Maori and Aboriginal people is that Aboriginal people are indigenous to this continent, whereas the Maori, from Polynesia, settled New Zealand.

I really have to correct on that on a point of order, Aboriginal people are not, in fact, indigenous to this Nation. The dictionary describes indigenous as originating in a country. The Aboriginal population migrated from Africa, thru Asia, and over the land bridge when the seas were lower, somewhere around 60,000/70,000 years ago. They did not originate here. However they were here, when Cook arrived.

Thats one theory Bob. If it’s true, there still remains a huge difference between 60-70,000 years and 700 years.

[bob10]

What pre European history not too much noteworthey happened in the previous 40,000 years that I am aware of.

That's what happens when you live in a paradigm.

Aboriginal people – how to misunderstand their science (http://theconversation.com/aboriginal-people-how-to-misunderstand-their-science-23835)

[bob10]

[QUOTE=bob10;2861694]

Thats one theory Bob. If it’s true, there still remains a huge difference between 60-70,000 years and 700 years.

Agreed. Not enough scientific research has been done on the subject.

When did Aboriginal people first arrive in Australia? (https://theconversation.com/when-did-aboriginal-people-first-arrive-in-australia-100830)

[bob10]

Aboriginal occupation dates keep getting pushed further back.

Aboriginal people lived in Australia's desert interior 50,000 years ago, earlier than first thought (https://theconversation.com/aboriginal-people-lived-in-australias-desert-interior-50-000-years-ago-earlier-than-first-thought-102111)

[bob10]

The Worlds first ground edge axe, from the Kimberleys?

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/03122417.2016.1164379

[bob10]

Why we should remember Boorong, Bennelong's third wife.

Why we should remember Boorong, Bennelong's third wife, who is buried beside him (https://theconversation.com/why-we-should-remember-boorong-bennelongs-third-wife-who-is-buried-beside-him-107280)

[bob10]

The cult of forgetfullness



Indigenous lives, the 'cult of forgetfulness' and the Australian Dictionary of Biography (https://theconversation.com/indigenous-lives-the-cult-of-forgetfulness-and-the-australian-dictionary-of-biography-86302)

[bob10]

Indigenous Australian dictionary of Biography

Indigenous Australian Dictionary of Biography | ANU School of History (http://history.cass.anu.edu.au/centres/ncb/indigenous-australian-dictionary-biography)

[bob10]

The answer to the posters question is a resounding YES !

Time to honour a historical legend: 50 years since the discovery of Mungo Lady (https://theconversation.com/time-to-honour-a-historical-legend-50-years-since-the-discovery-of-mungo-lady-97785)

[Zeros]

Carbon dating and written history are both Western cultural concepts.

Aboriginal people know they have always been here, but because their knowledge is largely oral history based the Western world view struggles to believe it.

Every time a ‘new’ scientific date of occupation is measured, western science is surprised that it previously got it wrong! LOL. Aboriginal people are not surprised.

Personally I think the notion that all humans evolved from one point in Africa is highly unlikely. This scientific premise is largely imagined into being via Christian Adam and Eve thinking. The ‘science’ of evolution has been significantly influenced by religious beliefs to the point it has become the norm that all else is ‘tested’ against.

I believe humans evolved on numerous parts of the planet simultaneously, just as plants and animals have. As I’m not a scientist I’m able to listen to multiple perspectives.

The Western cultural ego is highly problematic in this debate.

[Ferret]

This scientific premise is largely imagined into being via Christian Adam and Eve thinking.

I think it was 'imagined into being' by mitochondrial studies actually.

2+2=4 is not a cultural concept, but whatever.

[DiscoMick]

Europeans also originated in Africa, but when people came out of Africa Europe was frozen solid so they turned east towards the Middle East, Asia and eventually here. So Aborigines were here before there was much settlement in Europe.

[DiscoMick]

We need to get over the idea western Europe was the centre of civilisation. Actually it was in the Middle East and China that complex cities originated. China and the empires centred on what is now Iraq to Egypt were the centre of civilisation. The Roman's thought the Celts were wild savages while the Chinese thought the European explorers were unsophisticated.
White settlers in Australia did not understand the complex belief systems of the indigenous, who did not build cities, but were better adapted to our landscape. We still don't get it.

[Eevo]

We still don't get it.
we get it. we just dont care.

[Zeros]

I think it was 'imagined into being' by mitochondrial studies actually.

2+2=4 is not a cultural concept, but whatever.

Apparently mitochondrial DNA knowledge is not as conclusive as first thought...
Turns Out Mitochondria Don't Work Like We Thought They Did (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.popularmechanics.com/science/amp25348955/mitochondria-maternal-paternal-inheritance/)
Just one example of inconclusive Western science. How many other variables might be discovered?

[trout1105]

White settlers in Australia did not understand the complex belief systems of the indigenous, who did not build cities, but were better adapted to our landscape. We still don't get it.

Both the white settlers and the aborigines beliefs were just fantasy and nothing was based on science, They were both simply religions.
IF the indigenous Australians are so much better adapted to this continent they why do they need all the trappings of modern society now to survive and prosper?

"
We still don't get it."
What is there to "Get" ?
Do you think we should all adhere to the "Dreamtime" belief and shed our western way of life and go live in the bush and it will be all "Hunky Dory"
Of course you don't .

[bob10]

Both the white settlers and the aborigines beliefs were just fantasy and nothing was based on science, They were both simply religions.
IF the indigenous Australians are so much better adapted to this continent they why do they need all the trappings of modern society now to survive and prosper?

"
We still don't get it."
What is there to "Get" ?
Do you think we should all adhere to the "Dreamtime" belief and shed our western way of life and go live in the bush and it will be all "Hunky Dory"
Of course you don't .




That is a fair question. Because, the native people, in the main, have been forced off their ancestral land, onto what may be called in the American way reservations . They no longer have the capability to hunt in the traditional way. They no longer have the country to educate their children in the traditional ways. they have over many years degenerated into welfare dependant communities. They have been forced off their land into this situation because the white man needed their land. So they took it. In the most extreme cases, the white man killed them all. Men, Women, Children. That is the white man's legacy. Your legacy.

[Eevo]

time for them to move on and adapt.

[bob10]

time for them to move on and adapt.

Adapt to what?

[trout1105]

That is a fair question. Because, the native people, in the main, have been forced off their ancestral land, onto what may be called in the American way reservations . They no longer have the capability to hunt in the traditional way. They no longer have the country to educate their children in the traditional ways. they have over many years degenerated into welfare dependant communities. They have been forced off their land into this situation because the white man needed their land. So they took it. In the most extreme cases, the white man killed them all. Men, Women, Children. That is the white man's legacy. Your legacy.

You have obviously never been to the Kimberlie's or the NT, They have a plethora of land/country available to them the same as in the central desert country.
I doubt very much that many of them would want to go back to living off the land as they did prior to being settled anyway.

[Eevo]

Adapt to what?

modern society.

[bob10]

You have obviously never been to the Kimberlie's or the NT, They have a plethora of land/country available to them the same as in the central desert country.
I doubt very much that many of them would want to go back to living off the land as they did prior to being settled anyway.

I lived in the NT . Been to the Kimberlys, and the Pilbara. And Arnhem Land. I didn't just be a tourist. You obviously are not aware the most successful
aboriginal endeavours have been buying back large cattle stations all over the top end and running them giving the young men a future. You also have no idea of the communities in places such as Docker river, in which a mate of mine was manager, which have " wild Blacks " living as they did back in the day. You really should educate yourself before making these " tourist " statements.

[trout1105]

I have lived and worked in the Pilbara and the NT, I have also had first hand experience of remote communities working with an electrical contractor out of Darwin So stick your "Tourist" label up your Bum Mate.

[bob10]

I have lived and worked in the Pilbara and the NT, I have also had first hand experience of remote communities working with an electrical contractor out of Darwin So stick your "Tourist" label up your Bum Mate.

And that is just what I expected from you. Edit and hoped would not happen .

[weeds]

Yawn....might come back to this thread in a couple of hundred years, hang on both sides will probably not have resolved differences and moved on

[bob10]

Yawn....might come back to this thread in a couple of hundred years, hang on both sides will probably not have resolved differences and moved on

I firmly believe your grand children will have a different attitude.

[Zeros]

Bob, some people are interested in other people and diverse world views, while others are frightened of diversity and only interested in themselves / perpetuating their own prejudices; some even think that everyone should ‘adapt’ to their world view, and even worse they get angry when others don’t buy it and just want to be themselves.

I’m with you brother, consideration of others is not only important, it’s what makes the world an interesting place to live. If everyone lived the same way and saw the world the same way, it would be a very boring world.

[Ferret]

Apparently mitochondrial DNA knowledge is not as conclusive as first thought...
Turns Out Mitochondria Don't Work Like We Thought They Did (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.popularmechanics.com/science/amp25348955/mitochondria-maternal-paternal-inheritance/)
Just one example of inconclusive Western science. How many other variables might be discovered?

There is no such thing as 'western' science. There is only science which simply asks for reproducible evidence of whatever anybody claims. Anyway, from the article you cite:


But this paper shows that this sort of thing does happen, and it might be possible that it could happen to a lot of people

And what the authors of the referenced paper actually say:


Our results suggest that, although the central dogma of maternal inheritance of mtDNA remains valid, there are some exceptional cases where paternal mtDNA could be passed to the offspring.

So yes, it's possible but it is the exception and the actual authors are a long way short of saying it could happen in "a lot of people". After all, they only found 17 instances of it.

Some actual articles on the topic relating to Mungo Man and his ancient relatives. Of course this is all 'western' science so please don't tell me it backs up or refutes whatever you have been saying about anything.

Mitochondrial DNA sequences in ancient Australians: Implications for modern human origins. (http://www.pnas.org/content/98/2/537?ijkey=a78b962637f7a32649c3e7c05861c4425e55093b&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha)

Ancient mtDNA sequences from the First Australians revisited (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2016/06/01/1521066113.full#T1)

[Zeros]

There is no such thing as 'western' science. There is only science which simply asks for reproducible evidence of whatever anybody claims. Anyway, from the article you cite:

And what the authors of the referenced paper actually say:

So yes, it's possible but it is the exception and the actual authors are a long way short of saying it could happen in "a lot of people". After all, they only found 17 instances of it.

Some actual articles on the topic relating to Mungo Man and his ancient relatives. Of course this is all 'western' science so please don't tell me it backs up or refutes whatever you have been saying about anything.

Mitochondrial DNA sequences in ancient Australians: Implications for modern human origins. (http://www.pnas.org/content/98/2/537?ijkey=a78b962637f7a32649c3e7c05861c4425e55093b&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha)

Ancient mtDNA sequences from the First Australians revisited (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2016/06/01/1521066113.full#T1)

Um there is actually: Western science and traditional knowledge: Despite their variations, different forms of knowledge can learn from each other (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1479546/)

Without acknowledging and factoring in the full diversity of ‘science’ including indigenous science, Western science has blinkers on IMO - its all supposition amidst variables based on experiments. It’s a way of looking at the world which is no more or less valid than any other. It is completely fallible, has its advantages and disadvantages.

[bob10]

Bob, some people are interested in other people and diverse world views, while others are frightened of diversity and only interested in themselves / perpetuating their own prejudices; some even think that everyone should ‘adapt’ to their world view, and even worse they get angry when others don’t buy it and just want to be themselves.

I’m with you brother, consideration of others is not only important, it’s what makes the world an interesting place to live. If everyone lived the same way and saw the world the same way, it would be a very boring world.

The World would be Germany 1933. Forget history at our own peril. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I totally endorse that.

[Zeros]

The World would be Germany 1933. Forget history at our own peril. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I totally endorse that.

Well exactly. That’s what would happen if one dictatorial world view prevailed.

[Ferret]

...It’s a way of looking at the world which is no more or less valid than any other.

You might be happy accepting no evidence for whatever claims are made by people. I'm not.

[Zeros]

You might be happy accepting no evidence for whatever claims are made by people. I'm not.

Who are you to ‘accept’ or ‘not accept’ a third parties ‘evidence’ as to someone else’s cultural identity, knowledge or ancestry?

[bob10]

I have lived and worked in the Pilbara and the NT, I have also had first hand experience of remote communities working with an electrical contractor out of Darwin So stick your "Tourist" label up your Bum Mate.

Interesting work. I had the dubious pleasure of spending time at Yuendemu. Papunya, Docker River and Giles, with visits to Gove and a couple of other remote places. The larger communities were a real eye opener, showed clearly what happens when a large group of different tribes, or clans are thrown together without any thought to the consequences. Throw alcohol in the mix, bad, bad news. Alcohol was banned in some areas, the problem moved to Alice Springs. A large influx of River bank people. Giles was probably the most interesting place. They seemed to be from the same tribe, at that point alcohol was banned, although the Met station had a bar. There seemed to be much less trouble at Giles, the natives were living more of a natural life, or so I was told. It was at Giles we drove down the Gun Barrel hwy, and off it a bit, to inspect a section of a Woomera rocket, that had a box with " danger, radioactive " on it. That rocket section is now at Giles Met station, I believe.

Docker River was interesting. From what I was told, there were two clan groups there, and they were controlled by the Elders. A handful of Europeans were there to keep the books, Hatch, match, dispatch my mate said. He was the Manager or administrator, registered births, marriages ,deaths, and was responsible for the proper use of Government funds. Once again , a dry town. The only problem he had was when a young man from one skin group took off with a girl from another, taboo . They tracked them down, the Elders put him on trial, and he received a spear thru the leg. After that, he was banned to the bush with a couple of senior men of his clan, to consider the error of his ways. All the mate could do was ring Alice Springs Police and report it. He was told to do nothing. A couple of days later NT Police arrived, and a report was made, and filed.

Another very interesting experience was we were told that there was a spring that has never dried up in living memory. In times of severe drought, tribes from all over central NT would gather around the spring, and all differences and fights would be put aside, until the drought was over. We found the spring, a nondescript rock ledge surrounded by a circle of trees, with a rusted old ladder down into it. Once into it, it opened up into a huge cave, with the spring itself off in one corner. Cool, sweet water. We took a sample and it was sent off for testing. Thinking about that, we probably should have done that the other way around, test then drink. It was said that the report came back that the water was deemed to come down from New Guinea, under the Torres strait, and into that particular aquifer. I can not confirm that.

I won't go into the numerous interactions with the local indigenous people in the Darwin area, but if you lived there, you will know. One duty we had was to patrol the area above and around the oil fuel tanks in Darwin. The bush natives would come to town, and loaded up with alcohol, on occasions use our vehicle for spear or nulla practice. Not very often but I wondered why the oldest vehicle in the fleet was used. We were given strict instructions that if we ran over one of them, do not stop, do not get out, report to Darwin Police. Darwin, a different part of paradise, but I loved it. Yeah, you might say I have been to the Territory. At this stage I haven't regaled our adventures in the West, that's another day.

[Zeros]

The cliche that Aboriginal people are more susceptible to alcohol abuse is Null. Disadvantaged, disrespected people living in poverty anywhere on the planet are susceptible to substance abuse, let alone the wealthy and privileged! whose abuse of all kinds of drugs is destroying our society, and even though whilst they (sometimes) attempt to keep it more private is totally transparent and hypocritical.

The real story above above is the local knowledge of ancient aquifers, which the testing only confirmed.

[trout1105]

The cliche that Aboriginal people are more susceptible to alcohol abuse is Null. Disadvantaged, disrespected people living in poverty anywhere on the planet are susceptible to substance abuse, let alone the wealthy and privileged! whose abuse of all kinds of drugs is destroying our society, and even though whilst they (sometimes) attempt to keep it more private is totally transparent and hypocritical.

The real story above above is the local knowledge of ancient aquifers, which the testing only confirmed.



The cliche that Aboriginal people are more susceptible to alcohol abuse is Null. Disadvantaged, disrespected people living in poverty anywhere on the planet are susceptible to substance abuse, let alone the wealthy and privileged! whose abuse of all kinds of drugs is destroying our society, and even though whilst they (sometimes) attempt to keep it more private is totally transparent and hypocritical.

The real story above above is the local knowledge of ancient aquifers, which the testing only confirmed.

I agree that there is still a lot we can learn off the first Australians and that Not All communities are ****holes But there are a hell of a lot of communities and towns that are damn near unliveable due to the behaviour of the local indigenous inhabitants.
Too many people and politicians have this rose coloured glasses impression of these remote communities/towns and their answer to all of the problems found there is to throw taxpayers money and resources at it which in reality has only made the problem worse.
I have worked, met and played with heaps of fantastic first Australians and I am Not a racist arsehole like many here think, I also have 2 aboriginal grandkids But that doesn't mean that I ignore the fact that there are problems at many of the communities/towns.
I personally think that getting rid of the racism and mistrust from both sides would go a long way to solving the problems at many communities as would stopping people getting "Sit Down Money" that have absolutely No intention or will to go out and earn their living by working for it.
The do gooders have been the architects of many of the problem communities by mollycoddling them to the point that they are now pretty much solely reliant on social services and have no ambition to better their lot from the sweat of their own brow.
The Drugs and booze problems are Australia wide and is Not just a problem at the communities.

Getting back to the topic of this thread The Mungo Man.
Yes he is an interesting piece of our history But it is Not that important of a find to dedicate millions of dollars of taxpayers money to creating a monument too.

[Ferret]

Who are you to ‘accept’ or ‘not accept’ a third parties ‘evidence’ as to someone else’s cultural identity, knowledge or ancestry?

Who am I....?

I am the one that questions you when you make claims that carbon dating is a cultural concept. That current theories of human origin are 'imagined' into being. That 'evolution' is significantly influenced by religious beliefs.

I don't care what **** you believe but don't expect me to believe or take them seriously just because you (or somebody else) says random things for which they offer no evidence when there is significant evidence for the alternatives.

[Zeros]

Who am I....?

I am the one that questions you when you make claims that carbon dating is a cultural concept. That current theories of human origin are 'imagined' into being. That 'evolution' is significantly influenced by religious beliefs.

I don't care what **** you believe but don't expect me to believe or take them seriously just because you (or somebody else) says random things for which they offer no evidence when there is significant evidence for the alternatives.

No one is expecting you to do anything Ferret. I'm simply sharing an alternative point of view.
The 'evidence' as you call it is out there if you care to listen and look a little further. It won't necessarily be in the limited evidence format you expect. Take it or leave it.

[Zeros]

Trout, the only answer here is to stop separating people out according to their cultural identity.

There are endless **** holes (as you call them) in this world, no matter which country or culture - all are victims of disadvantage, dislocation, disrespect and all wrought by colonisation or capitalism.

[Ferret]

No one is expecting you to do anything Ferret. I'm simply sharing an alternative point of view.
The 'evidence' as you call it is out there if you care to listen and look a little further. It won't necessarily be in the limited evidence format you expect. Take it or leave it.

I see, there is evidence just none in the form I'd expect. I think I'll leave it then.

[bob10]

Getting back to the topic of this thread The Mungo Man.
Yes he is an interesting piece of our history But it is Not that important of a find to dedicate millions of dollars of taxpayers money to creating a monument too.




I agree, but they don't have to spend money, there is already a place, the Willandra Lakes Heritige centre. The perfect place to study ice age Australia and Post Ice age man in Australia. I haven't been there, but From what I've read, there was a set up in place, but it was dismantled.


Willandra Lakes Region - UNESCO World Heritage Centre (https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/167)

[Fourgearsticks]

I have not or could not because of the vitriol, gone back through and read the 5 pages of this "Debate" so forgive me if this has been mentioned.

Facts are carbon dating proves remains approximately 40,000 years old. Surely we can recognize and celebrate this appropriately?

For those who complain about spending money on celebrating this, as a nation we are about to spend 500 million!!!!!!!!!! on extensions for Australian war memorial. That is Australian history going back maybe 120 years to the Boar war, all well and good we should learn by our history as somebody else suggested or we are condemned to repeat it but 500 million? The AWM seems to show we keep repeating the same mistakes by fighting other peoples wars. 500 million seems excessive, shows what this current conservative federal govmint's priorities are.
Our countries history going back 40,000 years is worth learning about and being proud of, why can't people accept that?

Maybe if there was a novel written about 1500 years ago about somebody with unbelievable super powers that was killed and came back to life then went to live in the clouds makes for better reading for some? Then you could extort money from gullible people to build temples and cathedrals. You could also spend hundreds of millions of dollars of public money supporting the same organisations by supporting religious schools. Hang on, that happens now.

Matter of perspective really.

[DiscoMick]

Agreed. I was watching 'Civilisation' on SBS last night and thinking how Euro-centred it was and when would they mention Australian rock art going back 60,000 years, but instead all we got was much younger examples from Spain. And where were the Chinese?
Talk about cultural imperialism.

[bob10]

The cliche that Aboriginal people are more susceptible to alcohol abuse is Null. Disadvantaged, disrespected people living in poverty anywhere on the planet are susceptible to substance abuse, let alone the wealthy and privileged! whose abuse of all kinds of drugs is destroying our society, and even though whilst they (sometimes) attempt to keep it more private is totally transparent and hypocritical.

The real story above above is the local knowledge of ancient aquifers, which the testing only confirmed.

Look deeper into the story. Ancient cultures have a dark side, like every where else.

Police seize land council chief's old Toyota in Wrong Skin cold case (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/police-seize-land-council-chiefs-old-toyota-in-wrong-skin-cold-case/ar-BBQpmgB?ocid=spartandhp)

[Roverlord off road spares]

Every time i watch tv and there is a program on indigenous people there is a warning that Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander viewers might be distressed seeing images of those that have departed. Maybe a Mungo man statue would be be spooky to the indigenous.

[Roverlord off road spares]

Agreed. I was watching 'Civilisation' on SBS last night and thinking how Euro-centred it was and when would they mention Australian rock art going back 60,000 years, but instead all we got was much younger examples from Spain. And where were the Chinese?
Talk about cultural imperialism.

And the Vikings beat Columbus to America

[Zeros]

Look deeper into the story. Ancient cultures have a dark side, like every where else.

Police seize land council chief's old Toyota in Wrong Skin cold case (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/police-seize-land-council-chiefs-old-toyota-in-wrong-skin-cold-case/ar-BBQpmgB?ocid=spartandhp)

Yes some people from all cultures / nationalities all over the world do bad things. Selectively sharing an article that happens to be about someone who is Aboriginal is not helpful.

Again, this has nothing to do with a persons cultural or racial identity, unless what is alleged was actually racially motivated.

This however does: Aboriginal massacre sites uncovered in first forensic science study - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-01/forensic-science-study-seeks-truth-of-aboriginal-massacres/9001770)
...and I doubt these are the 12 unsolved deaths your previous article relates to.

If you must select articles, let’s see some balance.

[Zeros]

Every time i watch tv and there is a program on indigenous people there is a warning that Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander viewers might be distressed seeing images of those that have departed. Maybe a Mungo man statue would be be spooky to the indigenous.

Obviously the local people involved would be making that call.

[bob10]

Yes some people from all cultures / nationalities all over the world do bad things. Selectively sharing an article that happens to be about someone who is Aboriginal is not helpful.

Again, this has nothing to do with a persons cultural or racial identity.


And living in denial helps no one. We can't selectively sweep under the carpet things that don't paint the picture we would love to see. Believe me, I've seen both sides of the picture, the very good, and very bad. And it is cultural and racial identity that is paramount in the Mungo debate.

[Zeros]

And living in denial helps no one. We can't selectively sweep under the carpet things that don't paint the picture we would love to see. Believe me, I've seen both sides of the picture, the very good, and very bad. And it is cultural and racial identity that is paramount in the Mungo debate.

Who’s living in denial of what?

Bob, see my edit to previous post if you’re interested in what’s been swept under the carpet, but it’s a totally separate matter.

The article you you posted has nothing to do with Mungo. Neither does the one I posted.

Mungo man is an entirely separate matter. With Mungo it is about everyone recognising that the oldest known human remains found so far on this continent should be honoured.

It is a fact that non-Aboriginal people took Aboriginal bones away. That is the only cultural content of the debate. Not whether Aboriginal people everywhere are good or bad!

...Now that the remains have finally been repatriated, it’s about making amends by honouring and respecting the people whose ancestor Mungo man is.

[bob10]

Yes some people from all cultures / nationalities all over the world do bad things. Selectively sharing an article that happens to be about someone who is Aboriginal is not helpful.

Again, this has nothing to do with a persons cultural or racial identity, unless what is alleged was actually racially motivated.

This however does: Aboriginal massacre sites uncovered in first forensic science study - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-01/forensic-science-study-seeks-truth-of-aboriginal-massacres/9001770)
...and I doubt these are the 12 unsolved deaths your previous article relates to.

If you must select articles, let’s see some balance.

I'm sorry, but you speak in riddles.

[bob10]

Who’s living in denial of what?

Bob, see my edit to previous post if you’re interested in what’s been swept under the carpet, but it’s a totally separate matter.

The article you you posted has nothing to do with Mungo. Neither does the one I posted.

Mungo man is an entirely separate matter. With Mungo it is about everyone recognising that the oldest known human remains found so far on this continent should be honoured.

It is a fact that non-Aboriginal people took Aboriginal bones away. That is the only cultural content of the debate. Not whether Aboriginal people everywhere are good or bad!

...Now that the remains have finally been repatriated, it’s about making amends by honouring and respecting the people whose ancestor Mungo man is.

Please go back and read my posts. Then make another judgement. I'm not turning this into another AULRO tit for tat. I started by posting about aboriginal culture in order to help those who had no knowledge, and somehow it morphed into your argument. I think it may have been when a member accused me of never been to the NT, and knew nothing about the subject. And in the time honoured AULRO way, we then went on a DNA journey, and spending millions of dollars for memorial in Canberra, [ for which there is already provision for that at Mungo lake. ] And as for the good or bad , [and the 12 dead?] I do not understand your reasoning. I will not take this conversation in the direction you seem to be pushing it, Although I'm sure it would be interesting. I recommend a book, if you want to read further , that is called Blood on the Wattle, Massacres and maltreatment of Aborigines since 1788. A depressing read. I think we have concluded that Mungo man and Mungo lady should have some recognition , where they were found, but if the local people wish for that not to happen, so be it.

[Zeros]

Please go back and read my posts. Then make another judgement. I'm not turning this into another AULRO tit for tat. I started by posting about aboriginal culture in order to help those who had no knowledge, and somehow it morphed into your argument. I think it may have been when a member accused me of never been to the NT, and knew nothing about the subject. And in the time honoured AULRO way, we then went on a DNA journey, and spending millions of dollars for memorial in Canberra, [ for which there is already provision for that at Mungo lake. ] And as for the good or bad , [and the 12 dead?] I do not understand your reasoning. I will not take this conversation in the direction you seem to be pushing it, Although I'm sure it would be interesting. I recommend a book, if you want to read further , that is called Blood on the Wattle, Massacres and maltreatment of Aborigines since 1788. A depressing read. I think we have concluded that Mungo man and Mungo lady should have some recognition , where they were found, but if the local people wish for that not to happen, so be it.

Thanks Bob, yes I've read Blood on the Wattle and many significant books. However I've also spent decades across this continent working with Aboriginal people. IMO such long term direct experience is more relevant than most written histories.

You seem to think I don't know what I'm talking about, when it's pretty clear I have more knowledge about this stuff than you, particularly given you say you haven't been to Mungo. Having said that, I'm not denigrating your contribution, just critiquing it, because it seems to have moved on to some other WA based trial by media beat up story, rather than staying on point in terms of Mungo.

If you care to read the article you posted in full, it reports that there are approx 12 unsolved missing persons cases in the Kimberley region. My post was aimed at balancing yours, whereby at one massacre site alone there were at least 12 people killed. My point is that there are many more missing persons as a result of massacres in the region over the past century than have ever been recognised - they are certainly not part of the 12 reported unsolved cases!

Back to Mungo:

I've been to Mungo many times and worked with people there over many years.

There is no provision for a Mungo Man keeping place or proper memorial at Mungo - just an outdated display of artifacts in an inadequate building. It's a national disgrace that any human remains were removed without permission, let alone the oldest known on the continent; also that it's taken so long to return them and now people from everywhere but Mungo are expecting to have a say in how these remains are repatriated! How many more times will these people be insulted? It's entirely up to the traditional owners how the remains of their ancestors be repatriated and housed. They deserve nothing but the utmost respect from all of us, including significant government funding to lay them to rest appropriately.

I agree with you in criticizing the ridiculous proposal to spend so much money on the war memorial in Canberra in comparison. Trying to leave politics out of it, because this is a fundamental discussion about cultural respect - but successive governments have shown highly offensive misjudgement in terms of recognising Aboriginal rights over decades, not to mention imbalanced spending priorities.

This is clearly my opinion, because I am writing it. Anyone else can either listen or not, take it or leave it.

[DiscoMick]

I think if we can spend $500 million tarting up the War Memorial, which I think is a great place even though it totally ignores Australia's longest war, the 150 year conflict between invaders and indigenous, then we can certainly spend a few million to honour Australia's oldest human remains, the Mungo people. How many well-deserved hundreds of millions have we spent honouring our war dead in Europe?
But again I ask, what do the indigenous in the Mungo area want?
Anything else is just paternalism. Let the indigenous decide.

[weeds]

Er, at war with the indigenous for 150 years, nope don’t think so.

[Zeros]

Er, at war with the indigenous for 150 years, nope don’t think so.

Weeds, wars are not only physical. They are also cultural, psychological, histories falsely benign.

Aboriginal people have had to fight for their rights for more than 160 years. The war began here and it continues:
Australia's 'history wars' reignite (https://theconversation.com/australias-history-wars-reignite-57065)

Indeed the conservatives are even at war over their own culture! In favour of nothing short of the ‘Anglosphere’!
In Australia'''s relentless culture wars, Tony Abbott strikes again (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.smh.com.au/education/in-australia-s-relentless-culture-wars-tony-abbott-strikes-again-20180608-p4zkbu.html)

If anyone thinks this is not offensive to Indigenous people they are made of stone and they are deliberately perpetuating the war..

[trout1105]

During the last ice age in Australia the indigenous population was decimated and the survivors moved to small pockets of areas in the continent.
Mungo man is 40,000 years old and who is to say that the people that are now living in that area has any relationship at all to this 40,000 year old cadaver given that the last ice age was only about 20,000 years ago.
It is a pretty long stretch of the imagination to think that anyone can claim that a set of fossilised bones from 40,000 years ago are from one of their family members.

[bob10]

Thanks Bob, yes I've read Blood on the Wattle and many significant books. However I've also spent decades across this continent working with Aboriginal people. IMO such long term direct experience is more relevant than most written histories.

You seem to think I don't know what I'm talking about, when it's pretty clear I have more knowledge about this stuff than you, particularly given you say you haven't been to Mungo. Having said that, I'm not denigrating your contribution, just critiquing it, because it seems to have moved on to some other WA based trial by media beat up story, rather than staying on point in terms of Mungo.

If you care to read the article you posted in full, it reports that there are approx 12 unsolved missing persons cases in the Kimberley region. My post was aimed at balancing yours, whereby at one massacre site alone there were at least 12 people killed. My point is that there are many more missing persons as a result of massacres in the region over the past century than have ever been recognised - they are certainly not part of the 12 reported unsolved cases!

Back to Mungo:

I've been to Mungo many times and worked with people there over many years.

There is no provision for a Mungo Man keeping place or proper memorial at Mungo - just an outdated display of artifacts in an inadequate building. It's a national disgrace that any human remains were removed without permission, let alone the oldest known on the continent; also that it's taken so long to return them and now people from everywhere but Mungo are expecting to have a say in how these remains are repatriated! How many more times will these people be insulted? It's entirely up to the traditional owners how the remains of their ancestors be repatriated and housed. They deserve nothing but the utmost respect from all of us, including significant government funding to lay them to rest appropriately.

I agree with you in criticizing the ridiculous proposal to spend so much money on the war memorial in Canberra in comparison. Trying to leave politics out of it, because this is a fundamental discussion about cultural respect - but successive governments have shown highly offensive misjudgement in terms of recognising Aboriginal rights over decades, not to mention imbalanced spending priorities.

This is clearly my opinion, because I am writing it. Anyone else can either listen or not, take it or leave it.

Mate, you are on a crusade. I'm on your side but if you want to have the majority listen to you and you have a story to tell, don't be so intense. Tell your story, educate people. But make your story educational if you want to be an advocate for Aboriginal Australia, and you sound like you would be a good one. Don't be like me and be easily taken off on a tangent . Keep it straight, keep it in focus, and just remember sometimes you have to give the punters just a little bit of what they want to hear, to keep them interested. But don't stop talking. Aboriginal Australians need more like you, as long as you don't lose the plot.[smilebigeye]

[Zeros]

During the last ice age in Australia the indigenous population was decimated and the survivors moved to small pockets of areas in the continent.
Mungo man is 40,000 years old and who is to say that the people that are now living in that area has any relationship at all to this 40,000 year old cadaver given that the last ice age was only about 20,000 years ago.
It is a pretty long stretch of the imagination to think that anyone can claim that a set of fossilised bones from 40,000 years ago are from one of their family members.

Sorry Trout but that’s just rubbish. Have you been to Mungo?

[Zeros]

Mate, you are on a crusade. I'm on your side but if you want to have the majority listen to you and you have a story to tell, don't be so intense. Tell your story, educate people. But make your story educational if you want to be an advocate for Aboriginal Australia, and you sound like you would be a good one. Don't be like me and be easily taken off on a tangent . Keep it straight, keep it in focus, and just remember sometimes you have to give the punters just a little bit of what they want to hear, to keep them interested. But don't stop talking. Aboriginal Australians need more like you, as long as you don't lose the plot.[smilebigeye]

Respectfully Bob, your post is condescending. I’m one of the few not losing the point.
I’m not going to sugar coat it to make people feel better.

[bob10]

Respectfully Bob, your post is condescending. I’m one of the few not losing the point.
I’m not going to sugar coat it to make people feel better.


You will attract more with sugar than vinegar. As I said you are on a crusade and you probably know what happened there. Just offering advice , don't be too proud to take it.

[Zeros]

You will attract more with sugar than vinegar. As I said you are on a crusade and you probably know what happened there. Just offering advice , don't be too proud to take it.

From the arch-provocateur himself. ...looking for advice Bob? likewise, don’t be too proud. When you’ve actually been there let me know. Cheers.

[bob10]

From the arch-provocateur himself. ...looking for advice Bob? likewise, don’t be too proud. When you’ve actually been there let me know. Cheers.

And still you look for a reply. Arch provocateur. Good one . Good bye.

[DiscoMick]

I recommend reading The Other Side of the Frontier by Henry Reynolds, which is a history of the 150 year frontier wars from the indigenous side.

[trout1105]

Sorry Trout but that’s just rubbish. Have you been to Mungo?

Why is it rubbish?
How can anyone prove that the bones of Mungo man are a family member 40,000 years later?

[DiscoMick]

There's an excellent column about this very topic on the Guardian Australia website but I'm not going to link to it because it includes references to politicians. Check it yourself if interested.
One point it makes is Mungo Man is only one of many sets of indigenous remains held in various places around the country, and I assume there would be others in the UK.
They deserve to be returned to a respectful home, I think.

[Roverlord off road spares]

Why is it rubbish?
How can anyone prove that the bones of Mungo man are a family member 40,000 years later?

Ancestry.com.au have a DNA kit, we are probably all related to Mungo man in some way if we pay and do the test . LOL

[donh54]

Who were the first humans to reach New Zealand? Certainly they arrived thousands of years after Australia's first people.

Who were the first humans to reach New Zealand? | Stuff.co.nz (https://www.stuff.co.nz/science/100629585/dna-who-were-the-first-humans-to-reach-aotearoa)

For a really interesting insight into our near neighbours' history, have a look at YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z6PlYiQSTs) (this is the first in athree (maybe four) part series.

[DiscoMick]

Ancestry.com.au have a DNA kit, we are probably all related to Mungo man in some way if we pay and do the test . LOLEveryone is related to everyone else if we go back far enough. For example, we are probably all related to Adolf Hitler by at least one cell. Bit unsettling really.

[Eevo]

Everyone is related to everyone else if we go back far enough. For example, we are probably all related to Adolf Hitler by at least one cell. Bit unsettling really.

i did nazi that coming.

[bob10]

For a really interesting insight into our near neighbours' history, have a look at YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z6PlYiQSTs) (this is the first in athree (maybe four) part series.




That's very interesting. Years ago I had a Maori mate, who told me a story about the Mori ori I think he called them, the little people. He insisted it was true, I thought he was pulling my leg.

[bob10]

Ancestry.com.au have a DNA kit, we are probably all related to Mungo man in some way if we pay and do the test . LOL

All humans have a small percentage of Neanderthol in their DNA, and every blue eyed person originates from one early human. So, that would not surprise me.

[Eevo]

All humans have a small percentage of Neanderthol in their DNA, and every blue eyed person originates from one early human. So, that would not surprise me.

who you calling neanderthal!

[donh54]

who you calling neanderthal!

Stop dragging your knuckles, and I'll tell you! [biggrin]

[DiscoMick]

Every person carries the full range of genetic possibilities, including neanderthal, don't they? I certainly have neanderthal moments, according to the love of my life.

[bob10]

who you calling neanderthal!

Why, nooneatall, Barney.

[trout1105]

yabadabado evo[bigrolf]

[DiscoMick]

Neanderthals get a bum steer I reckon, they were no mugs.

[Redback]

[QUOTE=Zeros;2861677]The big difference between Maori and Aboriginal people is that Aboriginal people are indigenous to this continent, whereas the Maori, from Polynesia, settled New Zealand.

I really have to correct on that on a point of order, Aboriginal people are not, in fact, indigenous to this Nation. The dictionary describes indigenous as originating in a country. The Aboriginal population migrated from Africa, thru Asia, and over the land bridge when the seas were lower, somewhere around 60,000/70,000 years ago. They did not originate here. However they were here, when Cook arrived.

This is now a bone of contention Bob since it was discovered that the indigenous people of Australia where already here 60 to 70,000 yrs ago, it is now thought that if they did originate from Africa, they left a lot earlier than the rest, or did in fact come from somewhere other than Africa, Gondwanaland maybe??? and in fact were separated from what is now Africa???

I'm not saying you are wrong Bob, but could it be possible!!!

[bob10]

[QUOTE=bob10;2861694]

This is now a bone of contention Bob since it was discovered that the indigenous people of Australia where already here 60 to 70,000 yrs ago, it is now thought that if they did originate from Africa, they left a lot earlier than the rest, or did in fact come from somewhere other than Africa, Gondwanaland maybe??? and in fact were separated from what is now Africa???

I'm not saying you are wrong Bob, but could it be possible!!!

Mate, according to SWMBO, I am not often right. I think anything is possible, I would love to see a team of top Archaeologists [ had to look that up in the dictionary] funded part by Government, part by the private sector, to dig into just that question. The team would have to include prominent overseas professors, or any findings would be hotly disputed. Whose to say our Aborigines didn't originate in Tasmania, and moved north from there?. I don't know, but it's time we found out, I reckon.

[Saitch]

I hope I can clear up this Tasmanian idea here.
I just got back from visiting several PNG islands and all the canines I saw on those islands looked similar to this one, seen on Kitava Island. Some also had the white tipped tail and paws, so, my theory (As opposed to Ann Elk) is that there was a North to South migration of humans with their pooches.[bighmmm]

[bob10]

I will stand corrected, but I don't think Tasmania had dingos. Part of the reason could be Aboriginals came to australia 50,000 / 60,000 years ago, the dingo came around 5,000 years ago.


The Australian Dingo, Icon of the Australian Outback (https://www.outback-australia-travel-secrets.com/australian_dingo.html)

[DiscoMick]

Dingoes are just Asian street dogs. They run wild in Thailand. Nothing special about them at all.

[Eevo]

they are very smart though

[bob10]

Dingos are smarter than foxes, and a fox is no slouch.

Dingoes show 'unbelievable intelligence' - Telegraph (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/8960578/Dingoes-show-unbelievable-intelligence.html)

[DiscoMick]

I've seen a group of dingo-like street dogs in Thailand co-operate to bring down a motorcyclist, so that's typical canine intelligence.

[LRJim]

Dingoes are just Asian street dogs. They run wild in Thailand.

Sure they are, you see dingo's running around everywhere in Bangkok. Even Japan has them running around in Tokyo.

[trout1105]

I often see the odd dingo or two on this site[bigwhistle]

[DiscoMick]

Sure they are, you see dingo's running around everywhere in Bangkok. Even Japan has them running around in Tokyo.Street dogs are everywhere in Thailand. Not Japan though.

[LRJim]

Street dogs are everywhere in Thailand. Not Japan though.Besides the point, dingos are not thai mixed bred street dogs.

[DiscoMick]

Certainly seems dingoes came from Asia, possibly Borneo, about 4000 years ago, hence their similarity to Thai street dogs.
How did the dingo get to Australia? | Science | AAAS (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/04/how-did-dingo-get-australia)

[DiscoMick]

Dingo - Australian Museum (https://australianmuseum.net.au/dingo)

[AndyG]

Firstly on dogs, my understanding, from some TV show, is all semi tropical dogs, be it Asia, Africa, America's, Australia that survive with minimal human intervention evolve to an 'efficient' size/colouring that can survive on two parts of FA

But back to the thread,
Thanks for the reminder, i have now rejigged my PNG-BNE-MEL-Melrose- BNE odyssey over Easter to include Mungo for a few nights. Been on the bucket list for many years.
Why, from a personal note:

A strong interest in indigenous cultures, unavoidable when you live in PNG more than half your life
A recognition that my knowledge of Aboriginal culture is deficient
A strong interest in humanities varied path, the good, the bad, the ugly. Been to the Holocaust Museum in Washington, not Jewish, been to Lourdes in France, not a rabid catholic, will go to Mungo, do not have Aboriginal heritage, but its all part of the mosaic that makes us what we are.


BTW anything on Melrose 2019 yet, or a bit too soon.

[bob10]

I often see the odd dingo or two on this site[bigwhistle]


Mixed in with the odd goat

[trout1105]

Mixed in with the odd goat

It's OK "Billy" we know who you are Mate [bigwhistle]

[bob10]

Back on track to Mungo. Let CA stew in its own juice.

Mungo Lady and Mungo Man | Share Mungo Culture | Visit Mungo National Park (http://www.visitmungo.com.au/mungo-lady-mungo-man)