Loaded4x4 magazine

[rick130]

The latest issue of Loaded4x4 has hit the stands..., er, ether [biggrin] http://www.loaded4x4.com.au/issue-005/#1

and remember it's free!

[weeds]

I always have a flick through....a couple of articles in this one worth while having a read

A little OCD....but ya reckon you could have found a pic of an Aussie soldering iron.

[rick130]

[bigwhistle]

Have a read of David's big serve to the ute manufacturers regarding leaf rear ends and drum brakes.
He doesn't hold back! :lol2:

[weeds]

Must have flicked too quick....was wondering what the focus was on the drums

It’s hard to believe there are still drums on new cars...just like drums on caravans.

[460cixy]

[bigwhistle]

Have a read of David's big serve to the ute manufacturers regarding leaf rear ends and drum brakes.
He doesn't hold back! :lol2:

I haven't read the whole arrival but I do have some issues so far about some of the things said about drum brakes

[ramblingboy42]

I have to ask the question.....what is wrong with drum brakes?

I have to ask the second question... what is wrong with leaf springs?

[Geedublya]

I have to ask the question.....what is wrong with drum brakes?

I have to ask the second question... what is wrong with leaf springs?

Just 2 reasons off the top of my head.
1. No self cleaning. The crap stays in there and causes wear
2. Similar to 1. Water does. Not dissipate as easily causing reduced performance.

Another, self adjustment is mechanical and more prone to problems.

[AK83]

[bigwhistle]

Have a read of David's big serve to the ute manufacturers regarding leaf rear ends and drum brakes.
He doesn't hold back! :lol2:

[thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]

loved it!
Like he said, LR have been doing it for <however long> with the defenders ... question is why have they been so hard arzed about the rear setup for this long.

I've been thinking too tho, rear airbags would be an even better bet, in terms of load/ride height/ride/ etc than coils too.

[Zeros]

Great article on antiquated hire and cart tech...it’s one major reason I e always drive a Defender in preference to a Toyota.

The only Land Rover in the top 20 4x4’s is the Disco Sport in 18th! ...and yet LR pioneered rear coils and discs. Then at least a dozen in the top 20 have leaf springs and / or drum brakes! Go figure!

Enjoyed the mag overall, if a little bit ute heavy! But I guess it’s inevitable.

Thanks guys

[rick130]

I have to ask the question.....what is wrong with drum brakes?

I have to ask the second question... what is wrong with leaf springs?

The big thing for me is their lack of performance when hot, and it doesn't take much to overheat drums and then they just don't come back, they don't dissipate heat very well.
And they are heavy, they add substantially to unsprung weight, which affects ride quality. Not a biggy on a load carrying vehicle, but it all adds up.
Add to that what geedubyla said re water. Those of us who used 4 wheel drums way back can remember riding the brakes for what seemed like forever trying to dry them out after a creek crossing.

One advantage of drums is that they self energise, which is why I'd never use an X-Brake on a road/off-road Deefer or Disco.

Leaf are just crude, we are trying to locate the axle and suspend the chassis?
it's a simple and effective way to achieve ride, carrying capacity and location, but a nicely designed coil or airbag rear end does it so much more nicely.
Ever watched a leaf rear wind itself up under power ?
Think first gear, low range and lots of traction, the main leaf can wind itself into an S easily. Or break. It just depends on the heat treating. And that same winding themselves up is why they axle tramp. They are compromised in trying to locate the axle as well as support the chassis.


Leaf rear ends with a 4 link and panhard or Watts Linkage work really well, but then we may as well use coils. Or air bags. [bigwhistle]

[460cixy]

Drums are bad for business the bastards just won't wear out unless you spend all day playing in mud and ****. At the moment I have a gu patrol here in bits the rear drums on these things are massive with out mesureing the surface area of these things at a guess they have at least 1x if not more surface area then a defender disc brake plus they self energise I think you would be seriously hard pressed to cook these as the front brakes would no longer funtion by the time these got hot enough to show any signs of fade

[d2dave]

I don't know if things have improved, but back in the days when I was swinging spanners and I did spend a few years working in "Brake Specialist" shops,

it was very rare to find disc calipers that leaked. Yet I reckon about 25% of drum brakes that came through our shop would have leaking wheel cyl.

Disc brakes never need adjusting.

My personal experience with my first 4x4.

It was an early FJ 40 Landcruiser with drums all around. After a lot of river crossing I would find that wheel cyls would start to seize.

Another pain with some drum brakes was having to remove wheel bearings to check brakes. Ford Laser, early Falcons and Valiants come to mind.

Another advantage of discs is that most pad wear can be checked without even removing a wheel and pads can usually be fitted in about 10 minutes a wheel.

[460cixy]

Yeah leaking cylinders are still an issue and self adjusters still don't self adjust. They have plenty of issues but not really as bad as a lot make out. One thing is they rarely have brake squeal un like disc brakes that is the most commen complaint I see

[AK83]

Yeah leaking cylinders are still an issue and self adjusters still don't self adjust. ....

My biggest issue with drums(other than they're just crap) was when time came to either renew shoes, or just check drums for wear.
And this pertains more for us DIYers than for repairers on the whole .. was when the drums wore and the shoes got embedded within the drum wear points and the adjuster was seized up. The trouble getting the drum off was monumental.
Can't remember which car was the last that gave me so much issues .. may have been a Mazda E series van, may have been my Rodeo ute, or maybe even my SD1 Rovers, but whiche ever it was of those vehicles, the Rodeo was my last ever drum braked vehicle(for every day use).

Won't ever buy a ute again because of that and the cart springs ... LR tray/ute maybe.
Only vehicles I'd ever have with drum brakes would be some old historic thing .. but never again for every day use.

I had so much drama with my Rodeo drums.

For me it just makes no sense having leafs and drums, in 99.99% of vehicles use discs all round.
They obviously aren't that expensive to buy as a manufacturer, and you'd think that there must surely be some cheaper parts that could be used in place of a much more complicated drum setup
Discs are cheap as chips, even a single piston caliper would surely be cheaper for a manufacturer to purchase in numbers .. when compared to the complexity of a zillion moving bits in a drum system.

Drums just make no sense.

[460cixy]

My biggest issue with drums(other than they're just crap) was when time came to either renew shoes, or just check drums for wear.
And this pertains more for us DIYers than for repairers on the whole .. was when the drums wore and the shoes got embedded within the drum wear points and the adjuster was seized up. The trouble getting the drum off was monumental.
Can't remember which car was the last that gave me so much issues .. may have been a Mazda E series van, may have been my Rodeo ute, or maybe even my SD1 Rovers, but whiche ever it was of those vehicles, the Rodeo was my last ever drum braked vehicle(for every day use).

Won't ever buy a ute again because of that and the cart springs ... LR tray/ute maybe.
Only vehicles I'd ever have with drum brakes would be some old historic thing .. but never again for every day use.

I had so much drama with my Rodeo drums.

For me it just makes no sense having leafs and drums, in 99.99% of vehicles use discs all round.
They obviously aren't that expensive to buy as a manufacturer, and you'd think that there must surely be some cheaper parts that could be used in place of a much more complicated drum setup
Discs are cheap as chips, even a single piston caliper would surely be cheaper for a manufacturer to purchase in numbers .. when compared to the complexity of a zillion moving bits in a drum system.

Drums just make no sense.

Rodeo is a very very good example of how not to design drum brakes

[shack]

I haven't read the article yet, but I'm wondering, do newer utes use the brakes with the traction control system?

If so, how do they do it with drums? or does traction control= no drums.

You'll have to excuse my ignorance as I've not looked at any other brands set-up for ten years, and they probably didn't have t/c back then.

[AK83]

....

If so, how do they do it with drums? or does traction control= no drums .....


wouldnt' have thought it'd make any difference really,
brakes are brakes, and they all just work off the hydraulic system.

Same with ABS, and most traction control systems work off the ABS sensors (I think) anyhow.

[JDNSW]

Having lived through the industry changeover from drums to discs, perhaps I can add some insight into brakes.

While the earliest disc brakes on cars go back to the first few years of the 20th century (Lanchester), drums were almost invariably used until the 1950s.

As others have commented, the major reason for this is the ability to easily provide self energising action with drums. For early cars this was commonly with external contracting brake bands, but by the end of the 1920s it was more usually using a two shoe expanding system. By the late 1930s two leading shoe brakes on the front were common and brake operation was changing from mechanical to hydraulic as reliability and cost issues with hydraulic systems were gradually overcome.

The modern disc brake system grew out of the use of discs for aircraft brakes in WW2, and from memory first appeared on Jaguar sports cars in the very early 1950s. The first mass produced family car with (front) discs was the Citroen DS19 in 1955.

There were two major issues with changing to discs.

Firstly, inability to self energise, that is, to use the rotation of the wheel to pull the friction surface (pad) onto the disc. This meant excessive pedal pressure except on very light cars. (There were a number of methods of getting self energising on discs, but all are complex, expensive and a maintenance nightmare! And as far as I remember, none used on cars) This means power assist or full power operation is essential on all but the lightest cars, adding to cost, complexity and maintenance.

Secondly, because of the lack of self energising action, very high pad/disc pressure is needed compared to drums, requiring a relatively large, heavy, and expensive 'caliper' to support the operating mechanism. And the high pad to disc force needed meant serious issues with designing a workable handbrake mechanism - for this reason many manufacturers stuck to rear drums long after they went to front discs, and some even use separate drums for the parking brake.

Minor issues with discs are that they often required redesigning hub arrangements, and discs transfer heat more readily to wheel bearings.

As vehicle mass and power/weight ratios increased and more braking effort was wanted, while some very good drum brake systems were made, discs began to look like a better option, especially as marketing came into play once they became universally used in sporting vehicles.

By the 1970s it was hard to find any ordinary car with drum front brakes, although for the reasons mentioned above (and because drums were still a lot cheaper) rear drums were very common.

But since power/weight ratios were much lower, discs remained unusual into the 1980s for trucks and four wheel drives (Rangerover being an exception). Four wheel drives gradually changed as the main market changed from work vehicles to town vehicles, and car-like power weight and performance were demanded. And by the 2000s, drums were becoming rarer, so that their cost advantage dropped to almost nothing. Consequently, we now have a generation of owners and mechanics who find drums mysterious and difficult to deal with!

My oldest car when I was learning, a Ford, had a drum, external contracting, transmission brake (in the gearbox) as the service brake, with rear drums as the handbrake. The next (Reo) had external contracting rear drums for the service brake, and expanding shoes in the same drums for parking. The next (1931 Swift) had four wheel expanding drum brakes, as did the Austin that followed. My VW was the first with hydraulic brakes, also drums, followed by several Series Landrovers. The 1971 Citroen I got from my brother in 1971 was my introduction to discs.

[scarry]

wouldnt' have thought it'd make any difference really,
brakes are brakes, and they all just work off the hydraulic system.

Same with ABS, and most traction control systems work off the ABS sensors (I think) anyhow.

The newest Hi Ace in our fleet has hill start assist,TC,ABS,drums on rear,leaf springs.

We don't have any issues with brakes,on the older vans,300 000K's,almost on GVM,around town,never changed a disc,rotor,drum,or brake lining.Never adjust the rear brakes either,the self adjustments must work well.

And they stop very well,although we don't tow much,only the occasional small trailer.

But they are only on road.

I remember my father always repairing the brakes on the S1,particularly after spending months on Fraser island.

And spending a fair bit of time adjusting them as routine maintenance,a real PITA.

[AK83]

My Rodeo was got with 100K klms on it. Was some ex Utility Co's vehicle.

I used it as a courier vehicle, predominantly around town(after my bike accident).
Every year rear drum shoes needed replacing, and maybe every 18-24months needed drums.
I think I did two sets, and remember it wasn't as simple as taking the drum off .. there were always issues.
On the third change tho, I did remember the drama involved getting the drums off, and thought it was easier(for me!) to just get mechanics to do it.

Front pads tho every 6 or so months, but very easy job with the floating caliper design.

From memory, I think I only replaced the front disk rotors only the once, whereas the drums at least two times(maybe three .. can't remember exactly), in my 560K klms on top of the 100K when I got it.
At 600+k klms tho it did need another set of front disks, they were very near the undersize limit, and I bought a pair ready to fit ... one day soon(which never came).
Got rid of the Rodeo as it just got the point where I hated it so much on recreational drives(eg. Lake Eyre, Flinders Ranges or where ever I last went too with it) and decided enough was enough.
On road they drive fine, any gravel road and with a bump or two and ... nup! .. just had enough.

Dad gave me a Frontera (he replaced with a 60 series cruiser) they're basically same thing as a Rodeo and while it wasn't ideal, still a whole lot better than the Rodeo to drive.
Now with the D1, other than a complete lack of 'performance' .... the D1 is millennia ahead in terms of driving.
Just as said, power is totally lacking by comparison.
And for their era too, those 3.2 v6s, I reckon one of the best engines(I've ever had). Great power for a 2+ ton vehicle, and could easily get 10l/100 at highway speed.

[JDNSW]

If you regularly drive through either salt water (even slightly brackish river water!) or mud, you can expect brake problems, whether drum or disc, but more with drums.

For a comparision on maintenance, my County (disc front, drum rear) has, at 640,000km, had the front calipers serviced once, two sets of pads, original rotors, never needed machining. Rear drums have had three sets of shoes, one pair of new drums, and two pairs of wheel cylinders. Adjustment is checked at the 10k service, but usually only need to be adjusted every second service.

[460cixy]

Can't remember who posted it but but drums do use abs traction control and I assume stability control as well