Bloody hard for youngs to get jobs without being stuffed around.

[Roverlord off road spares]

My youngest graduated uni and is looking forward to a job over seas teaching job next year if accepted. In the mean time hes been looking for work . being on New start he needs to apply for at least 30 jobs a month.
He has had to jump through hurdles and it ends in no job. so now he is doing some unpaid voluntary work 2 days a week at the local op shop for the salvos to keep him busy.
4 months ago he applied for a casual position with Aus post for the parcel centre doing the christmas period parcel sorting. He got the interviews, they sent him to get a medical done and a police checks etc, they told him the position with be avail in November. November came and nothing, so he has been in constant email contact with Aus post and they kept telling him they haven't decided on when he will be required yet, then today he gets an email to say all the positons are now full . So 4 months of waiting for nothing since the indicarion was that he had a position. Makes it a bit disheartening

[101RRS]

Sure is - a young friend applied for a job in Home Affairs and got a call (not a job offer) in July that subject to a "good character check" (police/secutity check) he had the job. Three months later still no check done and in the mean time he is working at different short term contract jobs so that he is not locked in when the permanent job offer comes through.

After some chasing up he is advised in early November that all the checks have been done and the formal job offer will be provided within 2 weeks. On this information he knocks back a 6 month contract so is not working. Nothing heard - then last week he gets advised the process had just been changed and there is a new check that has to be done - will not take long - now no one at Home Affairs is taking his calls.

So he suspects that after nearly 5 months the job is not going ahead and he has not taken good work offers because of this. He is now assuming the Public Service is stuffing him around and trying to get new contract work but this close to Christmas there is not much on offer so will be out of work until the contract season starts next year.

This is all because when there are changes at the top - Dutton trying to overthrow Turnbull and failing, resulting in revised responsibilities for Dutton means there is a cascade down through the system resulting in a freeze on recruitment including jobs already approved.

Doesn't help the poor mug at the bottom waiting for a permanent job after a few years on the contract circuit.

Poor guy is just hanging by the phone not knowing if his dream job will come to fruition.

Garry

[austastar]

Hi,
A young friend spent 12 months full time looking for work. He had a diary based system for follow ups from interviews and cold calling CV drop offs.
He had a portfolio of information about himself and his aspirations in presentation folders. It was a full - on one man marketing exercise every day.
He eventually landed a full time job and hasn't looked back.
Cheers

[Red90]

No different than it ever was.

[Eevo]

ive only been working for 14 years but times have definitely changed.

[DiscoMick]

It's definitely harder than it used to be. One reason is about 40% of jobs are now casual or not permanent. Automation has also abolished a lot of entry level jobs, so it's harder for school leavers to get their first foot on the ladder.

[Rextheute]

Its not just the younger persons ...
As a 50 plus recently made redundant fella - its hard to even get a look in !
Im sort of lucky that my contacts ( and previous employer ) still require someone like me .

Now add in i haven't needed to apply for a job for a very long time - over 15 years due to owning my own business and falling into my last role .

Yes , the world has changed !

Something will come up ,but its as stated above - ' Full Time One Man Marketing Exercise ' .

The other challenge is most people are fairly loyal and don't want to take a short term role on the off chance a full time previously applied for position will come up .
Put the shoe on the other foot - companies now days will pull - "its a casual role, management have reduced the hours ...."

Be a little more willing to take a role knowing its not a forever job , also be aware that a govt role my take up to 12 months and beyond to come to fruition - do not be disheartened by the veeeeerry long timeframe .

Keep taking the contracts , its all experience .

Sorry , an additional note
- It is exceptionally rare to get any form of contact back from an application , I have had one 'thank you for your application ' this was from an American Company . All other applications have not progressed - as far as i know .
Many of the job listing sites - indeed , jora , trovit and even seek are phishing info to feed back to yourself ....much more efficient to apply direct to company if possible .
I have been 'retired , on a break or unemployed ' for 6 weeks now - have worked for 3 of those weeks with other parties - applied for maybe 7 jobs , 1 formal rejection .
My wife also worked with me , she applied for a job the week after ( also ) being made redundant and has been working for the last 3 weeks .

[DiscoMick]

Yes, the situation is much more difficult than the official figures indicate. Underemployment is much higher many realise.

[Toxic_Avenger]

Don't count your chicken before they hatch.
AKA- you're not employed until the employment contract is presented, signed and back to the employer's HR team.

Doing anything other than this is just foolish, IMO. Welcome to the real world.

[weeds]

Don't count your chicken before they hatch.
AKA- you're not employed until the employment contract is presented, signed and back to the employer's HR team.

Doing anything other than this is just foolish, IMO. Welcome to the real world.

Agree with the above.....always assume you need to be putting you best foot forward at every chance.

I don’t see a lot of from late 80’s to now.....in 1987 I must have either applied for advertised apprenticeships or cold called over 100 instances....rarely got a response. This was over a 12 month period. From memory it was late November when I got three offers in one week.....

In hindsight I selected the wrong one but......only problem was I had to sign a nine years contract at age 16 with very little/next to zero options of breaking it.

Your young fella just needs to keep at it.....and never trust HR/Recruitment until you have that contract or offer in your hot little hand.

[Roverlord off road spares]

The fact that some of these jobs want medical done, I think my son is going to say next time, if you want a medical give me the job 1st. You get a bit sick of medicals are you have done a few. Bunnings medical, Aldi medical , Aus post Medical, Japan job Medical, that's 4 medicals in 6 months
The overseas position he has applied for in Japan required blood tests and x rays as well as a Federal police report. Then 30 pages of documents in triplicate to the Japanese embassy. This one he had to pay for himself

[Toxic_Avenger]

Last medical I recall seeing the bill for was way north of $600. Not something a company will throw out there on 100+ applicants because they just can. Trust me on this.
The premise of this thread is that he's being 'stuffed around' is incorrect. Maybe a bit of mollycoddling in his defense, but definitely just normal corporate ass-covering to find the right hire.
On that, the cost of hiring is huge- a $40K job would cost the company an easy $15K to get filled and get someone trained and up to speed. All for naught if the son is somehow compromised and his spine snaps in 2 at the first 5kg parcel lift, causing massive workers comp etc...

Fortunately if he is getting this far, he is most of the way there IMO. He's also cleared a few culls of resume 'gatekeepers' and been deemed worthy of the investment of a medical. Conversely, he's over the barrel as they won't hire without. He could seek an employment contract with a clause pending satisfactory medical report, but respectfully, for the types of 'unskilled' jobs you've outlined, the bargaining power is not with the employee, as the labour pool is huge.

[weeds]

We only send the successful candidate for a medical.........otherwise it’s just a waste of dollars and subjecting people to x-rays

[Pickles2]

I don't think this is any new situation, I think it's been steadily getting worse over the years, I'm glad I don't have to apply for a job now, having been retired for many years.
In my day, it was so much simpler. Having always been interested in cars, I thought I might be a mechanic, but my Dad said no, you'll either join a Bank or an Insurance Co! In those days there were seven private banks, all advertising employment in the Saturday papers, so my Dad accompanied me to interviews, and I was offered a job by the E.S.& A Bank,....I always thought that it would be my employment for life, and it was, although ES & A of course was taken over by ANZ. And by the way, unfortunately I was never one of those bankers on mega salaries, I was just a middle manager, just a small cog in a very large machine.
I think I did have a medical, but no contracts in those days, we all joined, we thought for life, transfers from bank to bank were a no no. It was a good career, pretty tough at times, some think Bankers just do a 40 hr week,...NO WAY, 50+ in my case at times, and sometimes a lot more!
But, for sure, I agree, it's a lot harder to find permanent employment now. I would have hated to have had to sign a "contract" for a time & then hope it would be renewed, but many young workers I've spoken to, think it's "the norm" these days.
Contrary to improving, I think the situation will become even more difficult.
Pickles.

[3toes]

You are not in until you have actually started. Keep every possible position live and progressing until you have passed all hoops and are paid. Had one instance where was rung on day before was to start to say they were going to send another start date. This was with all paper work complete and having a signed off letter from the employer who was a large U.K. Plc. Did this to be again with the next start date as well. Had some enjoyment when rang on day was due to start for the third start date to say sorry had started elsewhere. Was only able to do this as had kept other roles progressing which gave me options when messed around.

[Roverlord off road spares]

These jobs except the one in Japan were causal jobs.
He even was asked if interested in volunteer work to teaching english to migrants on a one on one for a couple of days a week. He agreed as it was paying back to the community
He was sent to seminars at TAFE, had to do police checks and working with children.
This was over 6 months ago. he still had not been assigned any student . He wants to work and not sit on his backside. He however is not interested in working for me, understandble a lot of kids cant work with their parents.

[DiscoMick]

TAFE has been gutted to the point most staff are now casual.
It's become very hard for young people to get that first job in many fields now.

[DiscoMick]

If he's interested in teaching English overseas then try Korea and Thailand as well as Japan.
For Thailand, search a website called 'Ajarn' for the jobs area.

[Roverlord off road spares]

If he's interested in teaching English overseas then try Korea and Thailand as well as Japan.
For Thailand, search a website called 'Ajarn' for the jobs area.

Hi Mick he has his application in with the Japanese embassy as posted earlier. Via the JET program.
He has studied japanese since early high school, the graduated from uni has a degree in international language studies -Japanese. He lived and studied in Japan for 12 months, he had temporary Japanese residence . So he is very keen on teaching english in Japan.

[DiscoMick]

Sounds like Japan is his way to go. Good for him.

[Bigbjorn]

The ones with the hardest row to hoe are not the youngies but the mature age workers. As many of you are aware I worked in the Federal welfare areas as a DSS Field Officer. We worked closely with the CES. A senior CES case manager told me that he advised 0ver 45 job seekers to take any job offered to them even if is below their dignity, and their qualifications. It will likely be the only offer they get. He used to advise them also to drop age and date of birth from resumes and if you have reasonable recent work history then don't go back more than 5-7 years. Age discrimination is alive and well out there in the private sector. Over 50's become the invisible unemployed as potential employers ignore them totally unless they have sought after skills. One of Australia's biggest corporations had an unwritten policy of not employing new starters over 45. Another HR manager told me that his company does not start over 45's as the then company policy was compulsory retirement at 55. Over 45's would not accumulate enough superannuation by age 55 was his story. When maternity leave was introduced a CEO of a machinery group told me that this made women over 50 attractive employees as they would not be having babies and retired compulsorily at 60 before accumulating long service leave.

[ramblingboy42]

My wife in her role has just recently had to sort through hundreds of job applications for a very simple admin position in her work place , one which anyone with commonsense could do , which my wife suggests should be the prime requisite.

I can't say very much due to fact that I assisted her to get through the plethora of total and absolute bull**** cv's that were obviously professionally prepared.

The history of this organisation's employment points to selecting the best appearing application. The end result after selection is not the same.
In nearly every case the selected person is lazy , cannot do the tasks allocated, cannot work autonomously , has to be supervised at all times and is either not always punctual and finds excuses to leave early.

The only reason I'm saying this is because I feel sorry for the op who is just riding on this train. There is no real way out of it and organisations like the one my wife is with only prolong the process through the stupid selection system they use.

They never get the right person they want.

[101RRS]

One of the big differences in job applications between the past and now is that in the past you got advice on your application where now it is "dont call us we will call you". So you wait and wait and wait for no response and they get angry if you ring up.

I know of people in the public sector who did actually get the job but never got advice and then the job went to someone else - the admin process that sends out the offer failed and because the applicant did not respond the employer assumed they were no longer interested.

[DiscoMick]

Newstart rules require people to apply for a large number of jobs - is it 30 a fortnight? - to remain on benefits, so employers get swamped with applications, so it's not surprising employers don't bother replying to them all.

When my youngest son got his current job there were over 1000 applications for 12 positions, and you couldn't even apply unless you already had a trade qualification.
He went through three rounds of interviews over six months before being chosen. He's a very cluey lad though and has done well since.

Last time I checked there were seven unemployed job seekers for every advertised job, so it's tough out there.

[Roverlord off road spares]

some of my sons mates finished uni, one did an engineering internship and was then offered a position with the company, the other did sports medicine I think and got a job straight away. Another graduated in marketing and cant get a job in his field, they just uses him as a junior office boy.

i know some organisations use job agencies where workers are offered as casual employment, sometimes the client then recruits from them at a fee if they like the employee.

[trog]

Once you get a job , items they are never close to home , soa couple hours a day lost to the commute , on top of obligatory overtime, one has to show a commitment to the boss , and casual or probationary status for months. Not much of a work life balance. Live to work , or work to live ?

[Bigbjorn]

While we are banging on about interviews etc. This may be of interest.

These are the questions you can’t be asked in a job interview (https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/questions-cant-asked-job-interview-012920058.html)

An old mate and I were discussing our experiences applying for jobs many years ago. I am 77 and he is 81. He graduated from UQ in 1960. He reckoned interviews then paid scant attention to his uni results. What seemed important was your father's and mother's families, what school, first 11 or first 15, father's lodge. The school revealed your religion so this was not asked.

[Grumbles]

...... father's lodge.

I remember all too clearly the influence or lack there of centered around that particular organization. It defined careers and social acceptance.

[Blknight.aus]

IT doesnt help when the online job search places plagiarize each others job database. While over in perth I called up from 3 different websites what was I thought 3 different jobs, turns out after I called and spoke to the same person 3 times the positions of

"forklift operator"
"crane operator"
"HR/HC Driver"

Were all the same position in the same company as a yard loader.

Spent a good while talking to the person and turned the job down as I'd already been out to the site looking at another position and prefered the concept of remaining 10's+2's reliably

[speleomike]

Hi


.... Being on New start he needs to apply for at least 30 jobs a month.


Well there are a lot of jobs going in the Government so why don't they ALL apply for those :-) "Jobs at the Department of Jobs and Small Business"
Terms and Conditions for Public Submissions in the Department of Jobs and Small Business | Department of Jobs and Small Business (https://www.jobs.gov.au/terms-and-conditions-public-submissions-department-jobs-and-small-business)
has a link to the "Jobs List - jobs portal" which lists jobs from Senior Government Lawyer to Media Officers and Chief Executive Officer, Comcare.

Send off your resume and an application. Get your unemployed friends on New Start to do what the Government wants - send them your resume for all of those jobs advertised. Spread the word on Facebook and down at the pub. With just 1000 new Starters applying for that Chief Executive Officer of Comcare the Dept of Jobs and Businesses will have quite a few resumes to open, read and file into their systems :-) They are bound to find a suitable applicant surely? (I call that the Ghandi method of cooperation with the Government.)

And if they don't reply to your application send them a copy and a reminder after a week, CC'ed to an ABC journo :-)

Mike

[trog]

Hi



Well there are a lot of jobs going in the Government so why don't they ALL apply for those :-) "Jobs at the Department of Jobs and Small Business"
Terms and Conditions for Public Submissions in the Department of Jobs and Small Business | Department of Jobs and Small Business (https://www.jobs.gov.au/terms-and-conditions-public-submissions-department-jobs-and-small-business)
has a link to the "Jobs List - jobs portal" which lists jobs from Senior Government Lawyer to Media Officers and Chief Executive Officer, Comcare.

Send off your resume and an application. Get your unemployed friends on New Start to do what the Government wants - send them your resume for all of those jobs advertised. Spread the word on Facebook and down at the pub. With just 1000 new Starters applying for that Chief Executive Officer of Comcare the Dept of Jobs and Businesses will have quite a few resumes to open, read and file into their systems :-) They are bound to find a suitable applicant surely? (I call that the Ghandi method of cooperation with the Government.)

And if they don't reply to your application send them a copy and a reminder after a week, CC'ed to an ABC journo :-)

Mike
Why did I never think of that , not that I have been able to collect on the largesse offered to the unemployed? Though there is likely some rule , resulting in a possible forfeiture of benefits.
Wasn’t there a thread a while back , where the ongoing theme was for those unable to head to the rural areas ?
Perhaps it is time to bring back the not for profit agencies that actually found suitable matches for the available work , and not a “names generator “ to show how many they can attract to their ads. As Mr B. Knight previously posted the description and reality are often miles apart.

[DiscoMick]

Entry level jobs for school leavers are what's needed.
I read there are currently about 140,000 fewer apprenticeships than there were six years ago. That's causing youth unemployment.

[Bigbjorn]

While we are banging on about interviews etc. This may be of interest.

These are the questions you can’t be asked in a job interview (https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/questions-cant-asked-job-interview-012920058.html)

An old mate and I were discussing our experiences applying for jobs many years ago. I am 77 and he is 81. He graduated from UQ in 1960. He reckoned interviews then paid scant attention to his uni results. What seemed important was your father's and mother's families, what school, first 11 or first 15, father's lodge. The school revealed your religion so this was not asked.

I should also point out that if you were the wrong religion you would not have got an interview.

Discrimination of many kinds was thriving in the 50's and 60's. Some of our state depts. only employed catholics from a certain school. The dept. across the road only employed catholics from the other mick GPS school. Other depts. only employed protestants and so on. The old saw of "no catholics, jews, or niggers" applied with many employers. I found that a major finance, insurance, and trustee company had an intake of school leavers every year with the intention of training them up in the company's activities to become future managers by age 28-30 much like the banks. I also found that they did not employ catholics or state high school boys. GPS protestants only, thank you very much.

[LRJim]

Entry level jobs for school leavers are what's needed.
I read there are currently about 140,000 fewer apprenticeships than there were six years ago. That's causing youth unemployment.Yes but have you had one of these so called "apprentices"? Sorry but no (most) kids dont wanna work these days, if you havnt had a job before 18 good luck in the workforce. Employer's would rather see 2 years at McDonalds than a 4 year uni degree or a vce education I know I would (as a trade). School and uni dosnt get you anywhere near as far as it should unfortunately.
Cheers Jim

[Bigbjorn]

Yes but have you had one of these so called "apprentices"? Sorry but no (most) kids dont wanna work these days, if you havnt had a job before 18 good luck in the workforce. Employer's would rather see 2 years at McDonalds than a 4 year uni degree or a vce education I know I would (as a trade). School and uni doesn't get you anywhere near as far as it should unfortunately.
Cheers Jim

In my DSS days I often had to address a joint seminar with the local CES offices and local employers. CES hosted these to assess employers complaints and needs and the possible vacancies in the near future. A common complaint was the shortage of skilled tradesmen. I usually asked the complainant how many apprentices their company had started in the last decade, how many completed trade papers, and where are they now. The most common reply was none. "Company policy is against apprenticeships due to bad past experiences." I usually told them they needed to grow their own if they wanted tradesmen. Better selection and supervision would have fixed most of "the bad past experiences."

[LRJim]

In my DSS days I often had to address a joint seminar with the local CES offices and local employers. CES hosted these to assess employers complaints and needs and the possible vacancies in the near future. A common complaint was the shortage of skilled tradesmen. I usually asked the complainant how many apprentices their company had started in the last decade, how many completed trade papers, and where are they now. The most common reply was none. "Company policy is against apprenticeships due to bad past experiences." I usually told them they needed to grow their own if they wanted tradesmen. Better selection and supervision would have fixed most of "the bad past experiences."Now and then though.
Back then you could have made a better selection now it's discrimination.
Back then you could have grown your own tradesmen people had passion not just a job.
Back then kids could take character building these days it's considered abuse.
My cousin only a few years younger than me was an ice addict, started an apprenticeship with me. First 6 months I gave him hell made him cry and wanna go home all the usual apprentice stuff. 3 years on he gets it now it was building character not abuse[emoji106]

[DiscoMick]

In my DSS days I often had to address a joint seminar with the local CES offices and local employers. CES hosted these to assess employers complaints and needs and the possible vacancies in the near future. A common complaint was the shortage of skilled tradesmen. I usually asked the complainant how many apprentices their company had started in the last decade, how many completed trade papers, and where are they now. The most common reply was none. "Company policy is against apprenticeships due to bad past experiences." I usually told them they needed to grow their own if they wanted tradesmen. Better selection and supervision would have fixed most of "the bad past experiences."I don't agree that most kids don't want to work. While there are exceptions, I think most do want to work. I doubt if that has changed much over the years.
I don't think it's right to blame young people for youth unemployment. Society has changed. As others have said, many organisations and businesses are failing to invest in young people. They see training as a cost not an investment in the future, and would rather cut training and increase profits.
Trade training particularly TAFE has also been starved of funds. I can't discuss the politics behind that here.

[LRJim]

I don't agree that most kids don't want to work. While there are exceptions, I think most do want to work. I doubt if that has changed much over the years.
I don't think it's right to blame young people for youth unemployment. Society has changed. As others have said, many organisations and businesses are failing to invest in young people. They see training as a cost not an investment in the future, and would rather cut training and increase profits.
Trade training particularly TAFE has also been starved of funds. I can't discuss the politics behind that here.It's become a double edged sword really... completely agree with companies not investing in training new young people but a lot of young people prove they are not up to the task.... tafe perfect example 1st year apprentice class has 20-30 students come 3rd year it's down to 10-15 most (not all) of them don't wanna do the job anymore so why would a company bother investing money and time in training when they already know what the outcome is already gonna be? Generally the 10-15 students left are the passionate ones or they have stayed hidden away on site so the boss dosnt know their lazy little ****s!

[incisor]

I should also point out that if you were the wrong religion you would not have got an interview.

Discrimination of many kinds was thriving in the 50's and 60's. Some of our state depts. only employed catholics from a certain school. The dept. across the road only employed catholics from the other mick GPS school. Other depts. only employed protestants and so on. The old saw of "no catholics, jews, or niggers" applied with many employers. I found that a major finance, insurance, and trustee company had an intake of school leavers every year with the intention of training them up in the company's activities to become future managers by age 28-30 much like the banks. I also found that they did not employ catholics or state high school boys. GPS protestants only, thank you very much.

Aint that the truth!

[V8Ian]

Last medical I recall seeing the bill for was way north of $600. Not something a company will throw out there on 100+ applicants because they just can. Trust me on this.
The premise of this thread is that he's being 'stuffed around' is incorrect. Maybe a bit of mollycoddling in his defense, but definitely just normal corporate ass-covering to find the right hire.
On that, the cost of hiring is huge- a $40K job would cost the company an easy $15K to get filled and get someone trained and up to speed. All for naught if the son is somehow compromised and his spine snaps in 2 at the first 5kg parcel lift, causing massive workers comp etc...

Fortunately if he is getting this far, he is most of the way there IMO. He's also cleared a few culls of resume 'gatekeepers' and been deemed worthy of the investment of a medical. Conversely, he's over the barrel as they won't hire without. He could seek an employment contract with a clause pending satisfactory medical report, but respectfully, for the types of 'unskilled' jobs you've outlined, the bargaining power is not with the employee, as the labour pool is huge.
I had to do a medical, last year, for work. The cost was only a couple of pots shy of a grand.
The practice specialised in industrial medicine and I was there for less than an hour. They were most upset that I refused them permission to access my medical records and stated that I didn't have a regular GP. I was expected to supply them with every ailment that may preclude me from the position that I already held.
A perfect reason to opt out of the national My Health Record.

[Saulman1010]

I work for a fencing company on the Mornington Peninsula, and we can't find a labourer/trainee who is fit enough to dig a few holes, has a drivers licence and bothers to show up every morning at 7.
We have a constant steam of young people who just don't want to swap a little muscle for a fair pay plus heaps overtime.
Plenty of on going work and a small family buisness.
I don't get it.

[weeds]

I work for a fencing company on the Mornington Peninsula, and we can't find a labourer/trainee who is fit enough to dig a few holes, has a drivers licence and bothers to show up every morning at 7.
We have a constant steam of young people who just don't want to swap a little muscle for a fair pay plus heaps overtime.
Plenty of on going work and a small family buisness.
I don't get it.

Doesn’t surprise me