DB-140 Battery Isolator by Sidewinder - what's peoples Thoughts?

[Robmacca]

Guys,

I've recently redone the Dual Battery System on the Puma that I bought earlier this year. The previous system was a Piranha system which to me was rubbish. Didn't like the way the Piranha system worked so I thought I would go the same system that I have in my old Defender... that is a simple Dual VSR Relay which also has a switch wire that can be used to parallel the 2 batteries via a switch. I've been very happy with the way this one worked but I couldn't find another one of these and instead, I've bought a Sidewinder DB-140 that works in a similar way but with one BIG difference... The VOLTAGE when the 2 batteries separate when the engine is turned off is 12.4volts. To me, this 12.4v before battery separation is far too low....

Wondering if there are others out there that have or do use this Sidewinder DB-140 and what are your thoughts? 12.4v means that both batteries are down to about 80% capacity before battery separation..... too low??

Sidewinder's Dual Battery Isolator (Dbi-140R) (http://www.sidewinder.com.au/page79.html)

[weeds]

It’s higher than what traxide disconnects at.....


My redarc disconnects pretty much straight away when fridge is running....I prefer my starter to be at max. volts

[PhilipA]

I have had an earlier DB120 for about 5 years now, and it works well.
However I have become a bit concerned about the drain on battery 1 ( Optima Blue top) , as it seems to get under 12.4 in three days. The rate of loss then seems to reduce.
It may be something else entirely , but it seems that the energizing current for the relay is taking a bit of current.

I am thinking of getting a GSL which cuts at 12.7 volts which would mean no energizing current under 12.7 volts.
Regards Philip A

[John_D4]

That GSL actually looks interesting. I haven’t heard of them before but they come with a 2 yr warranty

http://www.gsl.com.au/tl_files/pdf-automotive-products/kbi-100a-12.pdf

From what I can tell you can add a momentary switch to it for emergency starting, so no extra infrastructure is needed. Plus only $75 or so

Only thing I’d like to know is - is a 100 amp VSR big enough? Other brands give the option of 120, 140 or 160 amp

[weeds]

Re: joining the batteries for emergency start, the redarc has this function I didn’t wiring it up as I don’t recall needing the function when touring......and if it happens to happen one day it’s a pretty simple job to move the + cable from one side of the switch to the other.

Re: joining the batteries to charge/top up the start when camping with solar attached to aux.......I just start the car for 5sec and shut down when the relay pulls in, batteries stay connected a day well providing the sun stays out.

[PhilipA]

That GSL actually looks interesting. I haven’t heard of them before but they come with a 2 yr warranty
BTW , I also have the Sidewinder in cabin monitor , which enables you to know the level of each battery, and to connect both.
It also has an LED which shows at a glance when the batteries are connected. This LED is on all the time down to 12.4 volts so also may be a source of a little battery drain.

One thing about GSL is that you can call their tech help line. I have a GSL MPPT regulator for my solar panel and I rang a tech about what the maximum panel output could be for the 12 amp limit. He gave me good info that 150watts is the max as when a battery is down to say 12 volts the amps will be pushing the limit.

I looked at the GSL tech specs and there is something wrong with either the description or the wiring diagram, and why the switch has to be momentary. AFAIR the diagram shows the battery connection to be to the primary battery and the description to the secondary battery or vice versa.
I would like to use my existing in cabin monitor with the GSL, and I think the led would work instead of their supplied LED and I would be able to monitor both batteries as this is just a switched take off from the cables. The question is about connecting both.

Regards Philip A

[Robmacca]

I have had an earlier DB120 for about 5 years now, and it works well.
However I have become a bit concerned about the drain on battery 1 ( Optima Blue top) , as it seems to get under 12.4 in three days. The rate of loss then seems to reduce.
It may be something else entirely , but it seems that the energizing current for the relay is taking a bit of current.

I am thinking of getting a GSL which cuts at 12.7 volts which would mean no energizing current under 12.7 volts.
Regards Philip A

And this is also what I'm concerned about too as it drains both batteries down to this 12.4 before disconnecting. My Puma sometimes sits there for a week or 2 at a time before being started & I'd rather have them disconnect at a higher voltage and thus help prevent any sulphation related issues. The setup on my older one works really well and never had any of these sort of concerns....

So will be watching to see how this goes and if I get annoyed, will look at trying to find something similar to what I have in my old defender

[weeds]

And this is also what I'm concerned about too as it drains both batteries down to this 12.4 before disconnecting. My Puma sometimes sits there for a week or 2 at a time before being started & I'd rather have them disconnect at a higher voltage and thus help prevent any sulphation related issues. The setup on my older one works really well and never had any of these sort of concerns....

So will be watching to see how this goes and if I get annoyed, will look at trying to find something similar to what I have in my old defender

If it doesn’t work out than a basic redarc does all your asking for. I have one fitted to my defer and three fitted to work cars. No issue to date and they isolate st 12.7v

Next time round I will go the ‘D’ as I believe it will reverse charge from the aux when solar is connected.

[John_D4]

If it doesn’t work out than a basic redarc does all your asking for. I have one fitted to my defer and three fitted to work cars. No issue to date and they isolate st 12.7v

Next time round I will go the ‘D’ as I believe it will reverse charge from the aux when solar is connected.

I thought they cut out at 12.4? That’s pretty much why I stopped looking at them. Might b wrong tho

[weeds]

I thought they cut out at 12.4? That’s pretty much why I stopped looking at them. Might b wrong tho

Just checked the Website says 12.7, might be a recent change although mine goes clunk within a few minutes of pulling up probably when the fridge cycles on.

Given there seems to be a few members who prefer their starter to stay as fully charged as possible I wondering if traxide would do a unit with a higher cut out.

[PhilipA]

I have never had a problem with the primary battery not having enough to start the car with the cutout at 12.4 volts,although I am a bit paranoid. I tend to charge the batteries once the LED cuts out after 3-4 days. When I am camping I connect the solar panel to the aux and then join both batteries.

The volts actually fall down to the mid to high 11s as the capacitors in the ECU and the fuel pump cut in.

I had a non starting problem with the previous Optima blue top when I thought the battery had not enough power to start but it turned out to be injector washers LOL. Threw away a perfectly good battery.

Regards Philip A

[drivesafe]

Just checked the Website says 12.7, might be a recent change although mine goes clunk within a few minutes of pulling up probably when the fridge cycles on.

Given there seems to be a few members who prefer their starter to stay as fully charged as possible I wondering if traxide would do a unit with a higher cut out.
Hi Weeds and while my standard SC80 is only available with a Cut-Out voltage of 12.0v, for a number of years now, both my Discovery 3 DBS kit, the D3-DS and my Discovery 4 DBS kit, the D4-5S, have a special version of the SC80 where the user can select either SHARED Mode where the isolator cuts out at 12.0v or the STORED Mode, where the isolator cuts out at 12.75v

Both my DT90 and USI-160 come standard with both settings and in all these isolators, the user simply selects which mode they want by changing the position of the switch in the In-Cab Module, supplies with all of these isolators.

The STORED Mode is for just that reason. If you are not going to use your vehicle for long periods of time, as there is no need for the extra battery capacity while the vehicle is not in use, then by setting to the STORED Mode you literally shut the isolator down to save battery energy.

With all of my isolators, the preferred operating setting is the SHARED Mode, with the 12.0v cut out.

This gives the best performance for both the Cranking batter and the Auxiliary battery.

Folks if you are happy with those "cheap" isolators, good on you, but compared to what my isolators achieve, you don't actually save money.

The instant you use one of my isolators, because you now have 50% of your cranking battery's capacity available to run your accessories, you have literally added at least $100 worth of battery capacity to your setup, with out increasing your auxiliary battery size, or adding additional weight to your vehicle and you have not needed any additional space to gain the extra auxiliary battery capacity.

Furthermore, thinking that keeping a battery at a fully charged state over allowing it to be discharged dow to 12.0v, when you are off camping, will guaranty the battery will always be safer, is giving you nothing but a false sense of security.

If a battery is stuffed, regardless of whether the isolator cuts out at 12.7v or 12.0v, the battery is stuffed.

But with the way my isolators work, by cutting out at 12.0v, while you are driving around town, normally using my cranking battery capacity to start your motor than you replace while town driving, my isolators actually keep your cranking battery in a higher state of charge. This one single operating feature will help to extend the operating life of your battery.

Lots more advantages to using my isolators but the point is, using one of my isolators, as compared to other isolators, "cheap" or otherwise, mine will save you money and long term, my isolators will save you more than what my isolators cost in the first place.

[87County]

I have a couple of Tim's Traxide systems and I have found that what Tim posts works out well.

Conservative me, I initially used to isolate the camping battery to preserve the cranking battery charge when pulled up for the night, but with growth of confidence I have found that Tim's system works as described.

I have even adapted one of his units to a portable system on an extra battery container that can simply be transferred from car to car (got too many cars I guess :) - blame cheap pensioner (& "H") rego).

[weeds]

Thanks Tim....it’s been awhile since I’ve been to your website.

For some of us that do extended touring we-are generally on the move everyday therefore the additional capacity of the starter probably doesn’t get utilized. More and more tourers have permanent solar on the roof which keep the aux topped up. For us the savings ‘in battery capacity’ aren’t really there. I haven’t needed any more than the 100amp/hr AUX and solar.

If my redarc fails I’d consider your SC80 MKII if it had a higher voltage cut out although having permanent solar would keeps the volts well above 12.

[Old Farang]

drivesafe--With all of my isolators, the preferred operating setting is the SHEARED Mode, with the 12.0v cut out.
Not being pedantic, as I consider you to be one of only a few on here that talk sense, but surely you mean "shared"? What you are writing means "broken" amongst other things, and is completely confusing. Cheers.

[scarry]

I have had the SC80 for over 7 yrs now and had no issues with starting the vehicle at 12.0V.

If there is a need to isolate the batteries,for whatever reason,just install a switch in the negative wire to the SC80.

Easy as.

[drivesafe]

For some of us that do extended touring we-are generally on the move everyday therefore the additional capacity of the starter probably doesn’t get utilized. More and more tourers have permanent solar on the roof which keep the aux topped up. For us the savings ‘in battery capacity’ aren’t really there. I haven’t needed any more than the 100amp/hr AUX and solar.
Hi again Weeds, and this is just for a comparison.


If someone already has the 100Ah battery, then then there is no weight saving.


But for someone starting to get there setup sorted. By using my isolators, you would only need a 50Ah auxiliary battery and you would have exactly the same amount of battery Ah available, but with a saving in cost, weight and space.


Even if you already have a bigger auxiliary battery, and you still only use the same amount of power, because the load is spread over two batteries, these batteries are not discharged as low as the original single battery, and this means they will be fully charged in a lot less driving time.


As far as solar goes. If you use the same amount of energy with a single battery setup or with a two battery setup, the recharge time will be the same. But because both the SC80 and DT90 have reverse charging, it does not matter where you connect your solar, the SC80 and DT90 will automatically charge both batteries.


One more advantage with using my isolators. in most cases, when you start your motor, because the two batteries are still linked together, part of the energy required to start your motor is going to come from the auxiliary battery.


This not only helps when starting the motor, but because the cranking battery is not discharged as much as it would in any other setup, again, your cranking battery will be charged in a shorter drive time, and this one feature in itself, is a major advantage for short, around town, driving situations.


As posted earlier, there is a lot to how my isolators work.

[John_D4]

Hi again Weeds, and this is just for a comparison.


If someone already has the 100Ah battery, then then there is no weight saving.


But for someone starting to get there setup sorted. By using my isolators, you would only need a 50Ah auxiliary battery and you would have exactly the same amount of battery Ah available, but with a saving in cost, weight and space.


Even if you already have a bigger auxiliary battery, and you still only use the same amount of power, because the load is spread over two batteries, these batteries are not discharged as low as the original single battery, and this means they will be fully charged in a lot less driving time.


As far as solar goes. If you use the same amount of energy with a single battery setup or with a two battery setup, the recharge time will be the same. But because both the SC80 and DT90 have reverse charging, it does not matter where you connect your solar, the SC80 and DT90 will automatically charge both batteries.


One more advantage with using my isolators. in most cases, when you start your motor, because the two batteries are still linked together, part of the energy required to start your motor is going to come from the auxiliary battery.


This not only helps when starting the motor, but because the cranking battery is not discharged as much as it would in any other setup, again, your cranking battery will be charged in a shorter drive time, and this one feature in itself, is a major advantage for short, around town, driving situations.


As posted earlier, there is a lot to how my isolators work.

Just pm’d u a question relating to all of this.

[DiscoMick]

Why would 12.4 (80%) be a problem?

[weeds]

Why would 12.4 (80%) be a problem?

Probably nothing......it’s just that some of us want the main left as it is when we pull up which seems to get by in from those happy to use their starter capacity.

[DiscoMick]

I've often gone well below that without any issue.

[weeds]

I've often gone well below that without any issue.

Goodo.....and it suits you

Keep in mind I used to have a traxide isolator in my old wagon, decided not to remove it and went a different way. In 60 nights of camping in my Poptop I haven’t once needed the capacity from from starter.

there has been plenty of posts in this thread advocating something the OP doesn’t want i.e. go lower

It does seem when isolators are mentioned for land rovers traxide is the only solution.

I will be purchasing a traxide headlight/driving light relay as that solution suits my requirements.

[Robmacca]

Goodo.....and it suits you

Keep in mind I used to have a traxide isolator in my old wagon, decided not to remove it and went a different way. In 60 nights of camping in my Poptop I haven’t once needed the capacity from from starter.

there has been plenty of posts in this thread advocating something the OP doesn’t want i.e. go lower

It does seem when isolators are mentioned for land rovers traxide is the only solution.

I will be purchasing a traxide headlight/driving light relay as that solution suits my requirements.


Agreed.... My Puma will be sitting for long periods between Drives and I'd prefer a system that doesn't drain the main battery due to the fact that most modern cars always have a small amount of current bleed off and I would prefer a fully charged AUX battery available to me to start the car should the need arise.

[drivesafe]

This is where my DT90, USI-160 and the special SC80, used in the D3 and D4 kits, would be perfect.

The operate at 12.0v cut-out during normal use and then by setting the switch in the In-Cab module, you can simply change the cut-out setting to 12.7v, leaving both batteries at their fully charged state when you are not going to be using your vehicle for long periods.

In other words, you have the best of both types of isolator operation, at the flick of a switch.

Can’t get easier than that.

BTW, my isolators draw 1/3 of the power of your isolator when they are off. This means that if you had one of my isolators, over a 2 week period, my isolator would draw a total of 3.3 amps.

Yours will draw 10 amps over the same period, and that is as long as you do not have the seperate LED display, which will then mean you use 20 amps.

[AK83]

Probably nothing......it’s just that some of us want the main left as it is when we pull up which seems to get by in from those happy to use their starter capacity.

Just curious as to what voltage does your battery finally rest at after a few hours?
say 6 hours, or overnight or something .. not just a couple of hours.

I currently have an Century starter and some cheapo(Repco) Aux in my D1.
The Century is a supposed 720CCA 85Ah 4WD targeted ultra high performance type.
Not real sure of all their claims, but my first one didn't last 11 months. got that replaced, with same, and is now coming up to 12months old too.

When newer, my volt meter measured it's resting voltage at 12.5 - 12.6 more often than not over night.
Many times tho, having a Redarc VSR, I'd even see 12.7 over night(it depended on ambient), and as soon as I opened the door(ie. interior light come on), the Redarc would clunk, and the battery would drop to 12.6v

Now tho, it's normal resting voltage is usually 12.4v, sometimes 12.5v and on colder nights 12.3-12.2v. So obviously it's starting to fade away.

The Repco Aux battery tho, almost without fail will stay fairly steady between 12.5 and sometimes maintain 12.6v .. this is while the starter can be anywhere between 12.2 and 12.5 (now).

What I'm thinking happens is that one or the other battery tends to hold the other, less endowed battery up for longer when they're connected.
Mindful that they disconnect at 12.7v.

My plan one day will be to get an adjustable VSR, so I can set the cut out volatage myself to say 12.4, maybe even less.
As Tim says, sometimes to use the additional capacity of the starter if wanted, but mainly to maintain the connection for longer to keep both batteries 'balanced'.

On a side note(last time I checked it) we installed a Redarc in brothers D2, with twin Optimas(1 yellow, 1 red).
a few weeks ago when I last saw them, overnight, they still stay connected at 12.7v a piece .. but it was a warm night too that weekend.

the point being .. it's all well and good to want(or seem to want) to keep the starter battery isolated at a higher voltage, but if it self discharges to a lower voltage, then in reality you've just lost that charge, that otherwise may have been put to good use!

[DiscoMick]

I think the failing battery would drain from the good battery.
My second battery usually sits on 12.6-12-7 overnight.

[Robmacca]

Just curious as to what voltage does your battery finally rest at after a few hours?
say 6 hours, or overnight or something .. not just a couple of hours.

I currently have an Century starter and some cheapo(Repco) Aux in my D1.
The Century is a supposed 720CCA 85Ah 4WD targeted ultra high performance type.
Not real sure of all their claims, but my first one didn't last 11 months. got that replaced, with same, and is now coming up to 12months old too.

When newer, my volt meter measured it's resting voltage at 12.5 - 12.6 more often than not over night.
Many times tho, having a Redarc VSR, I'd even see 12.7 over night(it depended on ambient), and as soon as I opened the door(ie. interior light come on), the Redarc would clunk, and the battery would drop to 12.6v

Now tho, it's normal resting voltage is usually 12.4v, sometimes 12.5v and on colder nights 12.3-12.2v. So obviously it's starting to fade away.

The Repco Aux battery tho, almost without fail will stay fairly steady between 12.5 and sometimes maintain 12.6v .. this is while the starter can be anywhere between 12.2 and 12.5 (now).

What I'm thinking happens is that one or the other battery tends to hold the other, less endowed battery up for longer when they're connected.
Mindful that they disconnect at 12.7v.

My plan one day will be to get an adjustable VSR, so I can set the cut out volatage myself to say 12.4, maybe even less.
As Tim says, sometimes to use the additional capacity of the starter if wanted, but mainly to maintain the connection for longer to keep both batteries 'balanced'.

On a side note(last time I checked it) we installed a Redarc in brothers D2, with twin Optimas(1 yellow, 1 red).
a few weeks ago when I last saw them, overnight, they still stay connected at 12.7v a piece .. but it was a warm night too that weekend.

the point being .. it's all well and good to want(or seem to want) to keep the starter battery isolated at a higher voltage, but if it self discharges to a lower voltage, then in reality you've just lost that charge, that otherwise may have been put to good use!

Not wanting to get off topic too much, but I've been running 2 Yellow Top Optimas in the missus 4wd. These are not a cheap battery and I've recently had one fail (DC27) after about a period of 4yrs. This battery was used for starting purposes only with no hard winching, etc. I noticed one day that it wasn't starting the car as crisp as it used to and got it tested and found that its lost 50% of its cranking capacity + I also had acid seeping from around the "-" terminal after I tried charging it..... Very disappointed in the Optima and will not be buying another one as I can get the same sort of life out of a battery that is half the value of the optima.

[AK83]

Not wanting to get off topic too much, but I've been running 2 Yellow Top Optimas ......

I don't think it's OT, as I noted earlier .. people are weary of having a lower voltage value for the cutout point, yet fail to state what their batteries finally rest at over a period of time.

I've been reading of failed Yellow tops recently .. damned got brother's setup all going just before I read all those complaints!
Hopefully it was just a single bad batch and they've sorted themselves out now.
Brothers was done some time back early in the year about 10 months or so now.
He's used the Aux(yellow top) a few times in those 10 months(ie. on trips) running fridge and stuff.
But I think about Easter he got himself a solar panel and gear, and then transferred fridge running duty to a third battery in a portable case connected to solar .. so the yellow top doesn't get drained so much .. etc, etc.

@ DiscoMick: I don't think my Century is 'failing' .. yet! .. dunno, it starts fine most times, sometimes a wee bit slower than normal .. again maybe temp related(??)

I'm going muck about with some testing one day when time is available .. main thing I want to see is if it's kept in a better SOC will it crank any better.
ATM when it's at 12.7v, it's usually because the Tdi is still warm itself too, so starting is always going to be 'better' .. faster etc.

I did put a load on it some months back whilst still warm, and turned on every accessory, and connected external lights and battery chargers, and all manner of stuff to get the resting voltage down from 12.7 to 12.4v while motor was still warm.
Started as good as it usually does with 12.7v.
That much I do know, having tested it out in the D1.

I watch the volts drop during first start, with glow plugs .. glowing! .. and volts drop from their usual 12.5-12.4 down to about 11.9(give or take 0.1v) .. and it still turns over fast enough to not worry about a lower state of charge on the start battery.

This is why I tend to agree with Tim's point of view that a lower voltage should be fine for first start.

[Gibs]

Just on a side note about Century Battery's:
This pertains to wet cell types only as far as I have been able to find out. They are all now a days made from RECYCLED lead, that is for some wired reason, not that great. Failure rates on these type of Century Battery's is now rather high (dying well before 4 years use). I've had a few over the last 4 years myself, give up the ghost, and 1 battery was just sitting on the shelf and died in 14 months (for my KLX250), I had removed it to try to keep it charged while the bike was stored. The CCA Battery in my 130 (3 years so far rebuilding it) which was a brand new battery 3 years ago, died around 18 months in, where as on the other hand my Aux battery type is Amaron that's been sitting in my 130 for the same 3 years and still holds a charge at 12.25V. I also had a Ctek 8 stage charger hooked up and use to turn it on every month for about 1-2 days to recharge both battery's ( I have a simple dual battery manual switch, I did have it set on both, its now on OFF), yet the century still died at around 18 months like I mention. But that damn Amaron from India (must be a TATA company) is till going strong and the last time I charged it was 1 year ago roughly as my Ctek charger died and I've not replaced it yet, no bloody need!

My PERSONAL conclusion, steer clear of Century Battery's and always use DUAL purpose battery types. - ie: CCA/Deep Cycle AGM or Glass Matt battery's as a minimum.

For those that are interested the Amaron I have is a 125D31R (http://www.federalbatteries.com.au/125D31R/)

[drivesafe]

Sorry folks, just realised this part of the reply was posted in the wrong thread.

BTW, my isolators draw 1/3 of the power of your isolator when they are off. This means that if you had one of my isolators, over a 2 week period, my isolator would draw a total of 3.3 amps.

Yours will draw 10 amps over the same period, and that is as long as you do not have the seperate LED display, which will then mean you use 20 amps.