Goodnight Diesel. ...Land Rover get your EV skates on!

[Zeros]

It’s only just begun....and it will happen faster than we can imagine.

RIVIAN

Rivian (https://products.rivian.com/)

SUV – Rivian (https://products.rivian.com/suv/)

BOLLINGER

Bollinger Motors | Bollinger Motors (https://www.bollingermotors.com/)

...Inc, time for a new EV section in both LR and non LR vehicles sections?

[weeds]

A non EV section has been requested but not sure the outcome.....

I assume an Land Rover EV section would be straight forward once one is announce and or released.

[Zeros]

Not much fanfare: 2020 Land Rover Range Rover Evoque will get full plug-in hybrid option - Autoblog (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.autoblog.com/amp/2018/11/24/2020-land-rover-range-rover-evoque-phev/)

[4xsama]

How big a generator would you need to have to keep the electric motors going in an EV? Not in a hybrid drive way but a Diesel Locomotive way.

[101RRS]

Range Rover Sport Plug-In Hybrid – PHEV SUV – Land Rover (https://www.landrover.com.au/vehicles/phev/phev-vehicles/range-rover-sport.html)

Range Rover Sport P400e First Drive Review - First Drive: Range Rover Sport plug-in hybrid (https://www.drive.com.au/new-car-reviews/range-rover-sport-p400e-first-drive-review-116539)

https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/jaguar-i-pace-2018-review-111429/'tracking=dsa&gclid=Cj0KCQiAoo7gBRDuARIsANeJKUZzY-CwgwTY8KGYpapug5qL8XUwNkjRjph1EcMBzcC02oeIYCL9SzMa As3iEALw_wcB

[martnH]

Good news

I am sick of using product from Saudi Arabia already

[goingbush]

How big a generator would you need to have to keep the electric motors going in an EV? Not in a hybrid drive way but a Diesel Locomotive way.

Would need to be MASSIVE , Whats you average $3000 Deisel generator about 1000x 700 x600 put out ? about 5 -10Kw

Look how much my EV Landy uses on a suburban street , just note when the Amps are positive its using power, when the amps are negative it generating power via braking.


https://youtu.be/T6WyrG2CUT0

[ScottyD]

Amazing EV Series.

Something I've wondered for a while... if you go on a long trip, can you take a little generator or even a largish solar setup to charge your batteries up? In some sort of meaningful, touring Australia sort of a way. Doesn't need to be instant, but something realistic.

[weeds]

Amazing EV Series.

Something I've wondered for a while... if you go on a long trip, can you take a little generator or even a largish solar setup to charge your batteries up? In some sort of meaningful, touring Australia sort of a way. Doesn't need to be instant, but something realistic.

i'm only a novice on EV.....but somebody posted an app/website which lists charging points around Australia, you can pretty much drive around Australia but you are stuck to the main drag

there is an article on mark adaptors taking 2 x EV across the simpson using solar and not cannot remember if there was a generator and/or support vehicles


I followed the travels of one guy on the charger app, he was driving a hi-lux that was 100% electric, on the tray was a generator along with his swag and camping gear, not sure how remote he went but it looks like he does venture away from the main charging areas........


i'm more and more surprised at what people are doing and i'm guessing with a bit of planning and a back up plan you could get to some interesting places............I expect it will slowly gain traction

[goingbush]

Mine has a 3.3kw charger so can charge at any normal 15Amp outlet , which means any Caravan park , so could easily plan a trip based on caravan parks.

As Weeds stated, Mark French crossed the Simpson just by charging on a fold out array Solar panels , Charged by Day & drove into the Night. Took 4 days.

You can also charge by being towed using the regenerative braking function, so if you do run out thats an option.

[Zeros]

Fantastic to see your vehicle on the move GoingBush. Thanks.

I can see EV's gaining traction in the market much more rapidly than expected. It may be a few years before there are rapid chargers across the country at every roadhouse, but recharging overnight at caravan parks will become the norm pretty quickly.

The big question is, when should we get rid our diesel vehicles?

[weeds]

You can also charge by being towed using the regenerative braking function, so if you do run out thats an option.

would this be an option on factory built EV's? or just retrofit like yours??

[goingbush]

would this be an option on factory built EV's? or just retrofit like yours??

I saw a video of a bloke towing a Tesla with a small car and it showed the Regen charging the battery until the service station 'tow strap' broke .

Also that Dutch bloke thats driving his EV VW Golf around the world ran short of charge and had someone tow him for a while across the Nullabor to top up his batteries, So basically any EV with an A/C motor , which is all factory EV's can be tow charged, I think they should have a decent front tow point & a solid tow would be handy too.

D/C motors dont have regen as it burns out the brushes & commutator ( A/C don't have any contacting parts)

[goingbush]

Fantastic to see your vehicle on the move GoingBush. Thanks.

I can see EV's gaining traction in the market much more rapidly than expected. It may be a few years before there are rapid chargers across the country at every roadhouse, but recharging overnight at caravan parks will become the norm pretty quickly.

The big question is, when should we get rid our diesel vehicles?

Yes that is the question, I can see ICE resale value falling off sharply as EV's gain popularity. An EV Retrofit business is worth thinking about.

Cobram Caravan park even has a Tesla charger , Its a happening thing.

Few more Dashcam videos of my EV Landy here YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/user/qfogarty/videos)

[scarry]

So where does all the power come from?The power grid is almost overloaded when a hot day appears and everyone turns on their AC units for a few hours.

How are we going to charge a couple of cars each night,at most houses?
This will be a similar domestic situation for many people.
And then there will be company cars,often loaded with trailers that need to go all day every day.

I can’t see solar and batteries having the capacity for one car,yet alone a few,at home?

Technology needs to have major advances until this becomes the norm.

[Zeros]

So where does all the power come from?The power grid is almost overloaded when a hot day appears and everyone turns on their AC units for a few hours.

How are we going to charge a couple of cars each night,at most houses?
This will be a similar domestic situation for many people.
And then there will be company cars,often loaded with trailers that need to go all day every day.

I can’t see solar and batteries having the capacity for one car,yet alone a few,at home?

Technology needs to have major advances until this becomes the norm.

Good question Scarry. Where is all the power going to come from? ...how fast will capacity increase and what will power cost in the future as a result?

[bee utey]

So where does all the power come from?The power grid is almost overloaded when a hot day appears and everyone turns on their AC units for a few hours.

How are we going to charge a couple of cars each night,at most houses?
This will be a similar domestic situation for many people.
And then there will be company cars,often loaded with trailers that need to go all day every day.

I can’t see solar and batteries having the capacity for one car,yet alone a few,at home?

Technology needs to have major advances until this becomes the norm.

The grid is evolving (solar, wind, storage etc) at the same time as electric cars are. People should stop imagining scenarios where out of the blue millions of cars are replaced by electrics and no-one has thought of the sources of power for them. Even if nothing else happened, all that unburnt oil could be fed to power plants at night, where its increased efficiency can offset the smaller charging losses.

[Zeros]

Yes that is the question, I can see ICE resale value falling off sharply as EV's gain popularity. An EV Retrofit business is worth thinking about.

Yes it’s interesting to consider. Will classic Diesel Land Rovers hold their value as they become rare? Or will all diesels drop in value?

In your opinion, is retrofitting EV viable for current model Land Rovers?

[Bigbjorn]

Next thought. If the fleet becomes overwhelmingly electric, how long will the Seven Sisters find it profitable to produce and distribute liquid fossil fuels.

[goingbush]

Saudi Arabia is investing big in Battery & electric car tech , no flies on them.


Scarry, you should be asking yourself "Where does all the Oil Come from" Its all bloody imported, and the countries we rely upon for it have us over a barrel, literally . They could cut supply & bring this country to its knees.

Electricity is a no brainer really.

[goingbush]

Yes it’s interesting to consider. Will classic Diesel Land Rovers hold their value as they become rare? Or will all diesels drop in value?

In your opinion, is retrofitting EV viable for current model Land Rovers?

Current models as in those Elitist high street cruisers , techninally not a problem. Any model LandRover is suitable for conversion but it will be cheaper to buy EV from the Factory, I would only bother converting something special that you intend to keep long term.

Canberra Electric Vehicles are at work converting a 6x6 Perentie , that will be interesting.

[scarry]

Saudi Arabia is investing big in Battery & electric car tech , no flies on them.


Scarry, you should be asking yourself "Where does all the Oil Come from" Its all bloody imported, and the countries we rely upon for it have us over a barrel, literally . They could cut supply & bring this country to its knees.

Electricity is a no brainer really.

Why ask a question when we all know the answer?[tonguewink]

No one seems to have any idea where all the power to charge these electric vehicles will come from.

And its not only where it will come from,who is going to do the massive investment in the infrastructure to distribute it.

Using oil to generate power would certainly go well with those that are trying to get away from using fossil fuels.

[bee utey]

I don't have any idea where all the power to charge these electric vehicles will come from.

FTFY [thumbsupbig]


And its not only where it will come from,who is going to do the massive investment in the infrastructure to distribute it.

The same people who once built replacement coal plants to replace old buggered ones are going to build new style power plants and grid improvements to cater for the new consumers.

Did you ever wonder who invests in oil exploration, oil refining, coal mining, big power plants, service stations, roads, parking stations etc etc? None of these things just "happened", they all had to be built from scratch.

That's the same people who will invest in the stuff needed to replace fossil power, i.e. corporate investors.


Using oil to generate power would certainly go well with those that are trying to get away from using fossil fuels.

It was just an improbable example of possibilities if you imagine an improbable scenario of difficulties. [bigrolf]

[goingbush]

Why ask a question when we all know the answer?[tonguewink]

No one seems to have any idea where all the power to charge these electric vehicles will come from.

And its not only where it will come from,who is going to do the massive investment in the infrastructure to distribute it.

Using oil to generate power would certainly go well with those that are trying to get away from using fossil fuels.

Most of the power to charge these electric vehicles will come from ourselves, My meagre 5kw solar provides 3x more than my car needs.

Also using Oil to generate power and then use that power in an EV is actually more efficient than using oil to power the car itself. I'd use 1/3 less petrol in a small generator to go 100km , that I would in the LandRovers petrol tank. The bigger the generator the more efficient.

Quote from Stand by, Australia, for the electric car revolution (https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/stand-by-australia-for-the-electric-car-revolution-20180112-h0hazy.html)

"One of the challenges that will come from the big increase in electric vehicles in Australia will be the demands on the electricity grid. An extra one million electric cars is the equivalent of 5.2 terawatt hours of power demand. This is about a 2 per cent increase in overall grid demand."

[Jojo]

e-car myths (http://teslaclubsweden.se/myths/)

Scroll down to #6 to find an answer to your question.

[Don 130]

Why ask a question when we all know the answer?[tonguewink]

No one seems to have any idea where all the power to charge these electric vehicles will come from.

And its not only where it will come from,who is going to do the massive investment in the infrastructure to distribute it.

Using oil to generate power would certainly go well with those that are trying to get away from using fossil fuels.

In the past, the government paid twerps like me to build the power stations. Now all those have been sold off and most of the power stations are at the end of their lives, so it will be up to big corporations backed by their shareholders to come up with viable solutions. I'm pretty sure none of them will be firing anything with oil.
Don.

[Blknight.aus]

How big a generator would you need to have to keep the electric motors going in an EV? Not in a hybrid drive way but a Diesel Locomotive way.


Would need to be MASSIVE , Whats you average $3000 Deisel generator about 1000x 700 x600 put out ? about 5 -10Kw

Look how much my EV Landy uses on a suburban street , just note when the Amps are positive its using power, when the amps are negative it generating power via braking.


https://youtu.be/T6WyrG2CUT0

actually not that big if you do it right.

to do it as a straight up Diesel electric you need to get into about 25kw of generator driving 2x 10Kw motors on the diffs, the numbers come up ok for the series and series speed, but....

if you do it as a semi hybrid diesel electric you can just about pull it off with an 8kva and a good set of batteries, the 8kva runs nearly flat out all the time and the batteries make up when the 8kva isnt enough and when the 8kva is more than you need then the batteries top up.

an 11kva is just on the money.

Weight and acceleration becomes an issue and the napkin maths says its not really any more effeicient than when you have a normal diesel..

however,

couple that you dont need to always use the generator so can leave it at home if you're only doing short trips, you can still charge from almost anywhere if your onboard charger has leads and... if you set it up right you can just hire the generator for the trip you need it for...

and it becomes a far more attractive idea.

[goingbush]

True Dave, I was working on the assumption of no Batteries, just straight Diesel Electric.

Adding batteries makes it so much more attractive proposition.

[Arapiles]

How big a generator would you need to have to keep the electric motors going in an EV? Not in a hybrid drive way but a Diesel Locomotive way.

Well, range extenders aren't that large - the BMW i3 range extender is just 647 cc - from Wikipedia:


W20K06U0 25 kW 647 cc, two-cylinder generator (optional) with a fuel tank capacity of
9 L (2.4 US gal) in Europe[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i3#cite_note-specsUS-3)
7.2 L (1.9 US gal) in the U.S.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i3#cite_note-i3RExSpecs-4)

Also, I'd wondered why range extenders were so efficient:

"As an REEV is only propelled by the electric motor it can do away with the weight and cost associated with the gearbox transmission (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_(mechanics)) system typically used in internal combustion engine cars. Further, as the range extender does not need to increase or decrease output in line with the power needs of the vehicle (this task is handled by the electric motor) the range extender can be sized to satisfy the vehicle's average power requirement rather than its peak power requirement (such as when accelerating). The range extender can also operate much closer to its most efficient rotational speed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotational_speed). These design features allow an REEV to convert fossil fuel energy to electric power and vehicle motion very efficiently."

Range extender (vehicle) - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_extender_(vehicle))

[Arapiles]

Why ask a question when we all know the answer?[tonguewink]

No one seems to have any idea where all the power to charge these electric vehicles will come from.

And its not only where it will come from,who is going to do the massive investment in the infrastructure to distribute it.

Using oil to generate power would certainly go well with those that are trying to get away from using fossil fuels.


There was a recent thread about this - each recharging car only uses a few kw per hour, so it's probably less of a draw than having the aircon on high as well as the pool pump. Or a double bar radiator. If the system copes with aircon etc then it'll cope with cars.

BTW, if you're thinking that cars plus aircon will be a problem, on really hot days in the future a lot of houses will run off their car's batteries - this is what happens in Japan now - so they'll actually assist with network demand. And with the uptake of household batteries there will soon be a lot of stored capacity off the grid in any case.

[martnH]

Nuclear power? Cheap

Solar? From the sun


I myself is pretty sick of using juice from decomposed Dino meat. Not to mention most from Saudi Arabia
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181203/f1c93125e763610f7b5604c86c1b12d6.jpg

[DiscoMick]

Once houses have battery banks charged by solar, when the EV is plugged in it will just become part of the house battery bank. The batteries will equalise. If the house batteries drop too far the charged batteries in the EV will run the house overnight until the sun shines and the solar recharges the house batteries.
They's nothing radical about this - people already do it. I have an estimate to do one of our houses next year.

[DazzaTD5]

Once houses have battery banks charged by solar

I'm guessing you mean countries that arent backed by the coal industry.
When Australia stops burning coal and stops exporting coal, I will by an electric car (or convert my series Land Rover to electric).

[4xsama]

Saudi Arabia is investing big in Battery & electric car tech , no flies on them.


Scarry, you should be asking yourself "Where does all the Oil Come from" Its all bloody imported, and the countries we rely upon for it have us over a barrel, literally . They could cut supply & bring this country to its knees.

Electricity is a no brainer really.

I remember being told years ago (like 15+ years ago) that BP was one of the biggest holders of patents in solar tech. Whether this means it was a way to catch and kill the tech in favour of oil of a form if insurance for when oil does fall from favour I couldn't say.

It does stand to reason the oil companies would be ahead of the curve though.

Out of interest, how many people have watched 'Who Killed the Electric Car'? Its a bit prophetic given GM's present stance on electric cars.

[weeds]

Most of the power to charge these electric vehicles will come from ourselves, My meagre 5kw solar provides 3x more than my car needs.

Also using Oil to generate power and then use that power in an EV is actually more efficient than using oil to power the car itself. I'd use 1/3 less petrol in a small generator to go 100km , that I would in the LandRovers petrol tank. The bigger the generator the more efficient.

Quote from Stand by, Australia, for the electric car revolution (https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/stand-by-australia-for-the-electric-car-revolution-20180112-h0hazy.html)

"One of the challenges that will come from the big increase in electric vehicles in Australia will be the demands on the electricity grid. An extra one million electric cars is the equivalent of 5.2 terawatt hours of power demand. This is about a 2 per cent increase in overall grid demand."

GB, do you have storage for your house solar?

For this of us that work generally drive during the day and need our car everyday therefore we would need to store power made through the day so we could charge at night.....hang on we will need to start drawing more from the net or install more panels

We don’t have solar, have a pool and is air con....we ain’t very power savey ATM

I’d like to think our next town run around car would be electric although I would probably switch back to bicycle power.

[DiscoMick]

I'm guessing you mean countries that arent backed by the coal industry.
When Australia stops burning coal and stops exporting coal, I will by an electric car (or convert my series Land Rover to electric).Huge number of solar panels being installed and battery bank numbers are rising steeply. This is a boom industry worldwide. Lithium battery prices are already falling and that will accelerate. Large number of EVs and hybrid vehicles coming on the market in the coming year. This is not theoretical any more - it's happening now.
Houses will recharge their batteries during the day and EVs will recharge and then supplement the house battery bank. It's already happening.

[DiscoMick]

Huge number of solar panels being installed and battery bank numbers are rising steeply. This is a boom industry worldwide. Lithium battery prices are already falling and that will accelerate. Large number of EVs and hybrid vehicles coming on the market in the coming year. This is not theoretical any more - it's happening now.
Houses will recharge their batteries during the day and EVs will recharge and then supplement the house battery bank. It's already happening.We will have 6.5kw of solar panels and a 6 kw battery bank for under $20k - should be plenty. Price is coming down all the time.

[goingbush]

I remember being told years ago (like 15+ years ago) that BP was one of the biggest holders of patents in solar tech. Whether this means it was a way to catch and kill the tech in favour of oil of a form if insurance for when oil does fall from favour I couldn't say.

It does stand to reason the oil companies would be ahead of the curve though.

Out of interest, how many people have watched 'Who Killed the Electric Car'? Its a bit prophetic given GM's present stance on electric cars.

Yes I imagine GM would be in a better position now if they had developed the EV1 instead of killing it off.


I think BP were hedging their bets,
BP to acquire the UK’s largest electric vehicle charging company | Press releases | Media | BP (https://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/media/press-releases/bp-to-acquire-uks-largest-electric-vehicle-charging-company.html)


Shell are waking up too
Shell owns more EV charging units than gas stations | Driving the Nation (https://www.drivingthenation.com/shell-owns-more-ev-charging-units-than-gas-stations/)

[goingbush]

Why ask a question when we all know the answer?[tonguewink]

No one seems to have any idea where all the power to charge these electric vehicles will come from.



here you go Scarry

Tesla's giant virtual power plant with Powerwalls expands to 1,000 more homes in Australia - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2018/12/03/tesla-virtual-power-plant-powerwall-australia/?fbclid=IwAR0PzpmMQ13Qusa78tY0hoL8Eo3KSj__BbTcYXTv s2dvJ09V0s4h0qKWyhc)

[DiscoMick]

I see the Range Rover PHEV is a mere $210,000.

[Zeros]

I see the Range Rover PHEV is a mere $210,000.

Bargain [bigrolf] compared to what your classic Defender will be worth when the 'new Defender' comes out Mick [bigwhistle]

...either that or our diesel Defenders will immediately be worth nothing in the EV age!

[AndyG]

Bargain [bigrolf] compared to what your classic Defender will be worth when the 'new Defender' comes out Mick [bigwhistle]

...either that or our diesel Defenders will immediately be worth nothing in the EV age!Luckily with the Defender family unique ladder rail chassis technology, you can slide in any new technology, holden red motor, V8, ford diesel, and EV, open source technology, nil redundency [emoji14]

[DiscoMick]

Luckily with the Defender family unique ladder rail chassis technology, you can slide in any new technology, holden red motor, V8, ford diesel, and EV, open source technology, nil redundency [emoji14]No thanks, quite happy with my Ford 2.4 lump.

[Zeros]

Luckily with the Defender family unique ladder rail chassis technology, you can slide in any new technology, holden red motor, V8, ford diesel, and EV, open source technology, nil redundency [emoji14]

[thumbsupbig] That’s what I’m banking on. ...though the motor on each wheel version might be difficult to retrofit?

[Zeros]

No thanks, quite happy with my Ford 2.4 lump.

Unless diesel become unattainable. 10-15 years is my prediction. 2035.

[bee utey]

[thumbsupbig] That’s what I’m banking on. ...though the motor on each wheel version might be difficult to retrofit?

Never say never!

Protean Electric’s In-Wheel Motors Could Make EVs More Efficient - IEEE Spectrum (https://spectrum.ieee.org/transportation/advanced-cars/protean-electrics-inwheel-motors-could-make-evs-more-efficient)

[350RRC]

...................

Also using Oil to generate power and then use that power in an EV is actually more efficient than using oil to power the car itself. I'd use 1/3 less petrol in a small generator to go 100km , that I would in the LandRovers petrol tank. The bigger the generator the more efficient.

.......................

Do you mind elaborating a bit on this topic? Enjoying the read.

cheers, DL

[Zeros]

Never say never!

Protean Electric’s In-Wheel Motors Could Make EVs More Efficient - IEEE Spectrum (https://spectrum.ieee.org/transportation/advanced-cars/protean-electrics-inwheel-motors-could-make-evs-more-efficient)

Ooh now you’ve got me!

[PhilipA]

I would commend posters to read this reference from an electrification expert on what he sees as the future for EVs hybrids etc. Now it is on the WUWT site but before your shout unclean sceptic etc , take the time to read what he says. As they say keep an open mind.

Vehicle Electrification Common Sense | Watts Up With That? (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/11/26/vehicle-electrification-common-sense/)

There is a follow up article further up the list which explores the latest innovations regarding EVs.
Regards Philip A

[Arapiles]

Do you mind elaborating a bit on this topic? Enjoying the read.

cheers, DL

This is part of it, from an earlier post:

"Also, I'd wondered why range extenders were so efficient:

"As an REEV is only propelled by the electric motor it can do away with the weight and cost associated with the gearbox transmission (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_(mechanics)) system typically used in internal combustion engine cars. Further, as the range extender does not need to increase or decrease output in line with the power needs of the vehicle (this task is handled by the electric motor) the range extender can be sized to satisfy the vehicle's average power requirement rather than its peak power requirement (such as when accelerating). The range extender can also operate much closer to its most efficient rotational speed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotational_speed). These design features allow an REEV to convert fossil fuel energy to electric power and vehicle motion very efficiently."

Range extender (vehicle) - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_extender_(vehicle))"

[goingbush]

No thanks, quite happy with my Ford 2.4 lump.


Unless diesel become unattainable. 10-15 years is my prediction. 2035.

Diesel will become very expensive before that !

At least the Tdi / Isuzu owners will be able to run on home made bio fuel / recycled oil etc , not so easy with a CRD.

[Zeros]

Diesel will become very expensive before that !

At least the Tdi / Isuzu owners will be able to run on home made bio fuel / recycled oil etc , not so easy with a CRD.

Tdi - on fish & chips :)
Puma - convert to four hub motors?

[goingbush]

Tdi - on fish & chips :)
Puma - convert to four hub motors?

Fish & Chips OK .

But Hub Motors , Yeah but nah . What Ive seen of hub motors so far, they will become practical at about the same time as Ion motors for negative gravity , When they invent superconductors at room temperature .

So far they are useful in scooters & mopeds . Don't cross your fingers for a useful 4x4 hub motor retrofit any time soon , (like 50 years.)
Most of what you see being are either scammers trying to get investor money or well meaning people that have sunk too much money in already to be able to back off.

If you know anything about engineering you know this ain't going to be practical or useful other than to suck money.


https://youtu.be/iQ4lTPVR3qc

[Zeros]

Fish & Chips OK .

But Hub Motors , Yeah but nah . What Ive seen of hub motors so far, they will become practical at about the same time as Ion motors for negative gravity , When they invent superconductors at room temperature .

So far they are useful in scooters & mopeds . Don't cross your fingers for a useful 4x4 hub motor retrofit any time soon , (like 50 years.)
Most of what you see being are either scammers trying to get investor money or well meaning people that have sunk too much money in already to be able to back off.

If you know anything about engineering you know this ain't going to be practical or useful other than to suck money.


https://youtu.be/iQ4lTPVR3qc

cheers... nope I’m an engineering novice.

What do you think is the most likely EV system for retrofit in the future?

[bee utey]

It'll be over sooner than you think,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUC6lsLr04I

[goingbush]

cheers... nope I’m an engineering novice.

What do you think is the most likely EV system for retrofit in the future?

I think fitting something like a Nissan Leaf motor direct to the Transfer case will be the best way to go. The Motor Ive used is similar power to the original engine so still need the gearbox. As EV's turn up in salvage yards the options for retrofit will get better.

At the moment there are about 20 converted LandRovers that In know of , from Freelander to RRC , Series One to Defender .

Most have simply replaced the ICE with an Electric motor & keep the gearbox / clutch , Some have bolted a Motor to the front of the Transfer Case .

A few conversions underway now include a bloke is fitting a motor direct to rear diff in a 90 (2WD only) . A 6x6 Perentie is getting a Industrial 3 phase motor bolted to the Gearbox (in Canberra) and theres another guy fitting a Tesla Drive unit to a 110 , I assume RWD only .

Zeros if your on Facebook, have a look at this group
Electric LandRover and 4x4 EV Conversions public group | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1113080125510519/)

[goingbush]

It'll be over sooner than you think,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUC6lsLr04I


Thanks for sharing, Hadn't seen it.

Love their Desk , new use for old PV panels . :)

[bee utey]

Thanks for sharing, Hadn't seen it.

Love their Desk , new use for old PV panels . :)

Their yoo toob channel is informative and worth checking every week, even if they are committed Tesla fanboys. [smilebigeye]

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMFmrcGuFNu_59L0pHcR0OA/videos)

[loanrangie]

What about hydraulic hub motors and pump driven by electric motor ? , losses too great or could it work.

[bee utey]

What about hydraulic hub motors and pump driven by electric motor ? , losses too great or could it work.

Until magic monster batteries come online, direct drive electric motors win just on efficiency alone. Even hydraulic power steering is too inefficient for modern vehicles.

Electronic Power Steering | KnowYou Parts (https://www.knowyourparts.com/technical-resources/electrical/electronic-power-steering/)

[Arapiles]

What about hydraulic hub motors and pump driven by electric motor ? , losses too great or could it work.

Well there was this recent article:

Ferox Azaris: Inside the development of a fluid-powered, Aussie-built concept | CarAdvice (https://www.caradvice.com.au/706314/ferox-azaris-inside-the-development-of-a-fluid-powered-aussie-built-concept/)

[Zeros]

How long do you guys reckon it’s going to take to roll out rapid EV chargers to all the road hoses in Australia?

[bsperka]

How long do you guys reckon it’s going to take to roll out rapid EV chargers to all the road hoses in Australia?Don't know. There's a string from Cairns to Coolongatta already. But when demand increases, more will be required. Telsa's next model (out in 2020) has a claimed 1000km range. So less charging stations will be required.
Battery density is going up and prices down to a point where electric is competitive on price points.

[vnx205]

How long do you guys reckon it’s going to take to roll out rapid EV chargers to all the road hoses in Australia?

I am trying to decide if that is a clever play on words based on the fact that the liquid fuels we currently use are delivered through hoses.

On the other hand, it might be just a typo. :D

I suspect that the demand for chargers will pretty much determine the rate at which they are rolled out.

[DiscoMick]

There is a map showing there are already thousands of charging points around the country. I was surprised how many. There are 3 close to my house.
I noticed last night my Polaris GPS already includes a function under Places to find EV charging points.

[DiscoMick]

In the UK there is a law requiring servos to offer charging points.
Plus EVs can charge from any power point - it just takes longer.

[donh54]

I agree the march of EVs' appears to be an almost irresistible force, but I would like to see it "hasten slowly"

One thing I see as a possibility of this happening too quickly, is the creation of a whole "underclass" of people who cannot afford to go EV.

$5K (with Govt subsidies) to put a minimal solar setup on your house; Probably barely able to run the household, let alone adding an EV;
$20K for a powerwall-type setup;
$???K to wire it all in;
$40K + for an EV; Also needs to allow for the massive depreciation and drop in trade-in value of the existing ICE vehicle;

That's supposing you own your own home. How many renters are going to set all this up? Very few, I'd imagine. Any landlord who does, will obviously want to recoup the cost via increased rent.

Is it going to end up like tobacco? No ICE vehicles allowed in carparks, or within 10 metres of doorways? Or in transit tunnels? Or anywhere else that their noxious fumes may inconvenience people?

Just a bit of "Devils' Advocacy" [biggrin]

[goingbush]

,snip.

That's supposing you own your own home. How many renters are going to set all this up? Very few, I'd imagine. Any landlord who does, will obviously want to recoup the cost via increased rent.

Is it going to end up like tobacco? No ICE vehicles allowed in carparks, or within 10 metres of doorways? Or in transit tunnels? Or anywhere else that their noxious fumes may inconvenience people?

Just a bit of "Devils' Advocacy" [biggrin]


Renters solar schemes already exist and the rest of Aust will probably follow South Aust lead

eg South Australian Government's Home Battery Scheme - Solar Choice (https://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/south-australian-governments-home-battery-scheme)

[Zeros]

There is a map showing there are already thousands of charging points around the country. I was surprised how many. There are 3 close to my house.
I noticed last night my Polaris GPS already includes a function under Places to find EV charging points.

Yes it is happening...However the maps show the majority of major central and northern Australia roadhouses have either a standard plug in facility or 3-phase - eg $0.44 per kwh. Not many have dedicated rapid chargers.

How long would it take to charge an EV on a standard three-phase outlet? and how many kwh would fill a Tesla battery for example?

[Zeros]

I agree the march of EVs' appears to be an almost irresistible force, but I would like to see it "hasten slowly"

One thing I see as a possibility of this happening too quickly, is the creation of a whole "underclass" of people who cannot afford to go EV.

$5K (with Govt subsidies) to put a minimal solar setup on your house; Probably barely able to run the household, let alone adding an EV;
$20K for a powerwall-type setup;
$???K to wire it all in;
$40K + for an EV; Also needs to allow for the massive depreciation and drop in trade-in value of the existing ICE vehicle;

That's supposing you own your own home. How many renters are going to set all this up? Very few, I'd imagine. Any landlord who does, will obviously want to recoup the cost via increased rent.

Is it going to end up like tobacco? No ICE vehicles allowed in carparks, or within 10 metres of doorways? Or in transit tunnels? Or anywhere else that their noxious fumes may inconvenience people?

Just a bit of "Devils' Advocacy" [biggrin]

Healthy DA DonH,

Like all technology I reckon there will be very rapid uptake by all those who can afford it over the next 5-10years. Most tech has seen rapid uptake in the past 10 years... although we're mainly talking computers, phones, ipads, etc majority under $3,000. A $40k+ vehicle uptake will probably be another matter.

It will certainly be a very expensive change over in terms of vehicle ownership for the majority, who can only afford second hand cars.

The home charging situation will be the least of their worries, as long as charging the vehicle is cheaper than putting diesel for petrol in it!

[bee utey]

I agree the march of EVs' appears to be an almost irresistible force, but I would like to see it "hasten slowly"

One thing I see as a possibility of this happening too quickly, is the creation of a whole "underclass" of people who cannot afford to go EV.

$5K (with Govt subsidies) to put a minimal solar setup on your house; Probably barely able to run the household, let alone adding an EV;
$20K for a powerwall-type setup;
$???K to wire it all in;
$40K + for an EV; Also needs to allow for the massive depreciation and drop in trade-in value of the existing ICE vehicle;

That's supposing you own your own home. How many renters are going to set all this up? Very few, I'd imagine. Any landlord who does, will obviously want to recoup the cost via increased rent.

Is it going to end up like tobacco? No ICE vehicles allowed in carparks, or within 10 metres of doorways? Or in transit tunnels? Or anywhere else that their noxious fumes may inconvenience people?

Just a bit of "Devils' Advocacy" [biggrin]

ICE vehicles, like smoking, will linger around open spaces for decades. Where they are banned people will just have to park outside and take public transport, or get in an Uber.

Some people will go through life and never once buy a new car. Most poor people will see second hand EV's become affordable as new whizz bang models come out and attract the new car buyer. Sure, it'll take 20 years to whittle away 90% of the ICE fleet but it'll happen. It's like Power Kero or LPG, one has declined to zero and the other is well on the way.

I'm someone who has never hankered after a new car for various reasons, not that I couldn't afford one. I just saw no point in having a depreciating asset when I could own one at the bottom of the curve, which I could maintain myself. My current ride is a 24yo car that cost $95K when new, now worth at most $3K. And if I really wanted an EV to potter to the local shops or to the city centre tomorrow, I looked on Gumtree and found a bunch of first gen Leafs for under $10K.

Nothing much will stop the avalanche. [bigsmile1]

[bee utey]

How long would it take to charge an EV on a standard three-phase outlet? and how many kwh would fill a Tesla battery for example?

Long enough to have a decent sit down meal then push out all the dents from skippy strikes... [bigrolf]

[goingbush]

Yes it is happening...However the maps show the majority of major central and northern Australia roadhouses have either a standard plug in facility or 3-phase - eg $0.44 per kwh. Not many have dedicated rapid chargers.

How long would it take to charge an EV on a standard three-phase outlet? and how many kwh would fill a Tesla battery for example?


Tesla Charging Options for Australia (https://www.teslaowners.org.au/charging)

NB, Charge rates are km per hour , slightly confusing, means the amount of km range added per hour of charging

[Zeros]

So is this correct? Currently most of the non-super chargers are 3-Phase at 55km/hr charging... So a 550km charge = 10hrs!

Hmm so the real question is when will there be Superchargers at every roadhouse?

The Tesla Supercharger map is not so convincing (yet). Price for supercharge = $0.35 per kWh
Find Us | Tesla Australia (https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/findus#/bounds/-34.54380102646764,153.32536748437496,-37.86717622843027,146.93132451562496,d'search=supe rcharger)

But then that will change rapidly once 4x4 EV vehicles become more common after 2020.

Current charge price at a random remote roadhouse in WA for 3-phase charge is $0.44 kWh. Would require an overnight stay.

[DiscoMick]

Plenty of people spend more than $40k on a vehicle so nothing will change there.
Recharging times vary from 80% in a hour depending on setup.
Drive 300 Ks to somewhere, stop for lunch and a recharge, drive some more, stop for the night, recharge overnight. All doable.

[Zeros]

Plenty of people spend more than $40k on a vehicle so nothing will change there.
Recharging times vary from 80% in a hour depending on setup.
Drive 300 Ks to somewhere, stop for lunch and a recharge, drive some more, stop for the night, recharge overnight. All doable.

It will kill the free bush camps and extended overland trips for a while, until batteries can hold a big charge. Or the camper trailer can I guess.

Oh well get your roadtrip freedom while you can! All the more reason to hit the road sooner!

I can't imagine anything worse than having to plan to stay overnight at a charging station all the time! The 'chargers' will also upload all your conversations in the car, update your onboard apps, upload all your 360 view camera imagery for the day, give you a fine if you were speeding, critique what you had for lunch, tell you to buy a coffee at the roadhouse, ask you if you want fries with that, monitor your every move!

[bee utey]

It will kill the free bush camps and extended overland trips for a while, until batteries can hold a big charge. Or the camper trailer can I guess.

Oh well get your roadtrip freedom while you can! All the more reason to hit the road sooner!

I can't imagine anything worse than having to plan to stay overnight at a charging station all the time! The 'chargers' will also upload all your conversations in the car, update your onboard apps, upload all your 360 view camera imagery for the day, give you a fine if you were speeding, critique what you had for lunch, tell you to buy a coffee at the roadhouse, ask you if you want fries with that, monitor your every move!

If you're not in a hurry put solar panels on your van and/or camper. A low tech approach:

Men driving solar-powered van to South America in race against winter | CBC News (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/solar-powered-van-whitehorse-1.4824979)

[Zeros]

If you're not in a hurry put solar panels on your van and/or camper. A low tech approach:

Men driving solar-powered van to South America in race against winter | CBC News (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/solar-powered-van-whitehorse-1.4824979)

Yes it can be done for sure... 100km solar charge a day is not too bad. Solar is definitely the way of the future as it becomes more efficient. Once that happens, free fuel overland travel will be amazing! [thumbsupbig]

[DiscoMick]

Solar paint has potential if they can make it work.

[PhilipA]

Drive 300 Ks to somewhere, stop for lunch and a recharge, drive some more, stop for the night, recharge overnight. All doable
Er , what if there is already somebody there?
in your brave new world everyone will have an EV.

re Supercharging How big a gennie will roadhouses have to install to have Supercharging and how will it be funded?
One takes 120Kw at 240 V (US 3 phase) so about 120KVA or 60?at 480V 3 phase, but how many will do that?
I think that is a serious size of generator and remember has to be on top of lighting,aircon etc.
Regards Philip A

[DiscoMick]

Will be solar, not generators.

How long do you currently have to wait to refuel - five minutes?

Road houses will make a profit by charging for it, so they will meet demand and install as many charging points as motorists need.
Recharging points will be everywhere. For example, I have read of American churches offering recharging points for their congregations to top up while in church.
It will become as common as Wi-Fi.

[LRJim]

Er , what if there is already somebody there?
in your brave new world everyone will have an EV.


Exactly, how many cars go through a freeway servo each hour and how much time do they spend at the pump? Maybe 1 or 2 mins? Ok 5 for diesel and LPG I'll give you.
How many cars per hour will a servo be able to fuel up if they were all EV? How many charging stations will they be able to handle blah blah blah you catch my drift
Not being a Debbie downer on EV but these are the things we need to resolve first, you could be waiting hours to get a charging station possibly days if everyone had an EV

[4xsama]

I think it's interesting that Maersk (worlds biggest container shipping co) aims to be carbon neutral by 2030 and cut emissions to zero by 2050. Given the logistics in shipping (weeks at sea etc);

‘Maersk is not pushing one technology — ideas such as biofuels, hydrogen, electricity or even wind or solar power have been mooted — but is stressing the urgency as most vessels have a life of 20-25 years, meaning that viable solutions need to be found soon. “To reach the target by 2050, in the next 10 years we need some big breakthroughs,” Mr Toft said. One challenge will be that container ships often need to travel several thousand kilometres at a stretch, appearing to rule out solutions open to other types of transport such as electric cars and lorries.’

Subscribe to read | Financial Times (https://www.ft.com/content/44b8ba50-f7cf-11e8-af46-2022a0b02a6c)

Maersk: Carbon emissions from shipping must be cut to zero by 2050 - CNN (https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/05/business/maersk-carbon-emissions-shipping/index.html)

When industries such as massive scale shippers commit to other energy sources the innovation and impact on other, less intense but endurance energy requiring users will surely benefit. As noted in the article above, some ships are nearing the end of their economic life so solutions which are to be integrated into new ships need to be just around the corner.

[bee utey]

Er , what if there is already somebody there?
in your brave new world everyone will have an EV.

re Supercharging How big a gennie will roadhouses have to install to have Supercharging and how will it be funded?
One takes 120Kw at 240 V (US 3 phase) so about 120KVA or 60?at 480V 3 phase, but how many will do that?
I think that is a serious size of generator and remember has to be on top of lighting,aircon etc.
Regards Philip A

And in your mythical smoke filled world no roadhouse operator will have heard of solar panels, batteries or the internet. (Hint: your future traveler can check their destination online for capacity at the time they expect to get there. Satellite internet goes everywhere.)

[Zeros]

Er , what if there is already somebody there?
in your brave new world everyone will have an EV.

re Supercharging How big a gennie will roadhouses have to install to have Supercharging and how will it be funded?
One takes 120Kw at 240 V (US 3 phase) so about 120KVA or 60?at 480V 3 phase, but how many will do that?
I think that is a serious size of generator and remember has to be on top of lighting,aircon etc.
Regards Philip A

Very good point Philip. ...It will make the race to the camp site / booking system / grey nomad walking stick fights over power outlets FRENZY even more exciting than it is now!

National Park bookings will be even more of a nightmare. And there will be super hot competition for the fake fire points too! Not to mention the Augmented Reality Koala viewings.

[Jojo]

...

re Supercharging How big a gennie will roadhouses have to install to have Supercharging and how will it be funded?
One takes 120Kw at 240 V (US 3 phase) so about 120KVA or 60?at 480V 3 phase, but how many will do that?
I think that is a serious size of generator and remember has to be on top of lighting,aircon etc.
Regards Philip A

Supercharging is provided by Tesla for Tesla's vehicles. A private vendor would not set up a Supercharger but rather a Destination Charger, with less effect, so it takes somewhat longer to charge. Which is quite alright as you don't want to gulp down your meal and run off as quickly as possible I suppose. A common 3-phase line with 16-32A will do for this. Coupled with solar panels and a storage battery it might even work in rural Oz.
For getting a real world impression how it works in practice, just go to Norway and see for yourself.


How long would it take to charge an EV on a standard three-phase outlet? and how many kwh would fill a Tesla battery for example?

Depends on battery size, state of charge and capacity of the outlet. Battery sizes of current Tesla Model S and X are 75kWh and 100kWh.

[scarry]

Drive 300 Ks to somewhere, stop for lunch and a recharge, drive some more, stop for the night, recharge overnight. All doable.

Anything is doable,but many won't want to do that.

What about a change over type system?

Just change over the battery at the garage,away you go.

But i suppose every manufacturer will have a different type of battery,and then there will be the new model that is better,and on it goes.

If a swap and go type of system could be organised,it is probably the way to go,with also the ability to charge them in other places and at home if needed.

[Jojo]

Anything is doable,but many won't want to do that.

What about a change over type system?

Just change over the battery at the garage,away you go.

But i suppose every manufacturer will have a different type of battery,and then there will be the new model that is better,and on it goes.

If a swap and go type of system could be organised,it is probably the way to go,with also the ability to charge them in other places and at home if needed.

Why's that? Only a change of attitude is needed. Much easier than you think. I adapted quickly to it. As I said earlier, look at Norway where it works in everyday life. Swap-over battery stations are probably not a viable solution. Tesla had those in California, but no one was using them (a Tesla battery pack can be swapped in less than 5 min).

[Arapiles]

Exactly, how many cars go through a freeway servo each hour and how much time do they spend at the pump? Maybe 1 or 2 mins? Ok 5 for diesel and LPG I'll give you.
How many cars per hour will a servo be able to fuel up if they were all EV? How many charging stations will they be able to handle blah blah blah you catch my drift
Not being a Debbie downer on EV but these are the things we need to resolve first, you could be waiting hours to get a charging station possibly days if everyone had an EV

Nup ... one of the current advances in batteries is quick recharge - as in, 5 minutes to 80%. There's two ways to this - better battery technology and simply faster charging of current batteries:

Quicker-to-recharge-batteries

Toshiba's new fast-charging battery could triple the range of electric vehicles (https://newatlas.com/toshiba-scib-battery-triple-range/51667/)

Electric-car batteries that charge in five minutes have lured an unlikely investor: Big Oil — Quartz (https://qz.com/1287299/electric-car-batteries-that-charge-in-five-minutes-have-lured-an-unlikely-investor-big-oil/)

Faster charging

World's fastest charger gives electric cars full power in minutes | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5662739/Worlds-fastest-charger-electric-cars-battery-power-just-eight-minutes.html)

The other thing to consider is that unlike ICE cars, with an EV you don't have to go to a servo to recharge - in most cases you can do it at home. So the servo would be for people who don't have access to a charger - street parking only, for example.

[scarry]

Why's that? Only a change of attitude is needed. Much easier than you think. I adapted quickly to it. As I said earlier, look at Norway where it works in everyday life. Swap-over battery stations are probably not a viable solution. Tesla had those in California, but no one was using them (a Tesla battery pack can be swapped in less than 5 min).

You have answered your own question.

But looks like they weren't popular in California,there could be many reasons why they were not popular there.

Its all about time,people don't have hours to hang around waiting for batteries to charge.A few may,but many won't want the inconvenience.

In many cases,time is money,and that won't change,particularly in business.

I don't think Norway is comparable with Australia.We have huge distances that need to be covered,and a public transport system that isn't the greatest around.

Edit----- Just saw Arapiles post,super fast charging is the go,as long as it works.

[Jojo]

...
Its all about time,people don't have hours to hang around waiting for batteries to charge.A few may,but many won't want the inconvenience.

In many cases,time is money,and that won't change,particularly in business.

I don't think Norway is comparable with Australia.We have huge distances that need to be covered,and a public transport system that isn't the greatest around.

Edit----- Just saw Arapiles post,super fast charging is the go,as long as it works.


Sure, but you won't have to wait for hours. At Superchargers you charge your car for 15-30 min, just enough time for a pee and a coffee (if you're travelling with children you will need more time anyway). This will take you to your destination or at least the next Supercharger station a couple of hours away.

[PhilipA]

but no one was using them (a Tesla battery pack can be swapped in less than 5 min).
Really?
They weigh about 170KG and are held in by dozens of bolts.
If you had a specialized pit with specialized equipment like a gang socket and specific lifting and lowering equipment
which would have to be specifically designed and installed maybe. and this would cost mega bucks.
The batteries have to be perfectly aligned or the contacts get bent.

And what about the issue that you may have a nice new battery and get offered an 8 year old one. AFAIK that is a big reason why they are not popular.

If you want to see what is involved I suggest that you look at some of Rich rebuilds You Tube videos.
Regards Philip A

[Jojo]

How Tesla's Battery Swapping System Technology Works (https://www.valuewalk.com/2016/10/tesla-battery-swapping-works/)

So, with out the automated process it did take longer, I agree. Nevertheless, the changing stations are history now as no one was using them. If you want your original battery back it is only to come back on you return trip. Otherwise the age of the battery hardly matters if you are swapping these constantly.

[Arapiles]

And then there's this:

2019 Jaguar I-Pace review | CarAdvice (https://www.caradvice.com.au/708655/2019-jaguar-i-pace-review/)

Complete with air suspension and 500mm wading depth.

It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see the same underpinnings with an LR badge on it.

[goingbush]

And then there's this:

2019 Jaguar I-Pace review | CarAdvice (https://www.caradvice.com.au/708655/2019-jaguar-i-pace-review/)

Complete with air suspension and 500mm wading depth.

It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see the same underpinnings with an LR badge on it.

Correctomundi , the I Pace has an Aluminium Frame , like the New Defender hmm

The E-Pace is on a Focus Platform (steel) , exactly like Freelander / Evoque

[DiscoMick]

The Nissan Leaf, the world's best-selling EV, has a 40kw battery, can be charged in less than an hour and a range of about 300 Ks.
Every caravan park and motel space will have recharging sockets.
Most people will recharge at home or work, using solar power. People are already doing it.

[Arapiles]

Correctomundi , the I Pace has an Aluminium Frame , like the New Defender hmm

The E-Pace is on a Focus Platform (steel) , exactly like Freelander / Evoque

It's funny, the I-Pace looks like a hatchback but it's not a lot narrower than a D4.

[donh54]

Will be solar, not generators.

How long do you currently have to wait to refuel - five minutes?

Road houses will make a profit by charging for it, so they will meet demand and install as many charging points as motorists need.
Recharging points will be everywhere. For example, I have read of American churches offering recharging points for their congregations to top up while in church.
It will become as common as Wi-Fi.

Roadhouses are there to make a profit, so the obvious thing to do is to have one charge point, and not a particularly fast one at that. A big sign saying how many klms it is to the next charge point (preferably a few hundred), and pump up the price of your coffees by a couple of bucks for your captive (queued up) audience. That's the way to roll in the Rupees!

[Zeros]

Roadhouses already make 90% of their income from selling snacks and drinks. Iced coffee milk is 5 x the price of fuel per litre. Theyll want as many punters charging their cars as possible and if it’s solar they’ll probably offer a significant discount if you buy junk food. They already do because there’s more profit in the chocolate bar and the fuel costs them a fortune, let alone the insurance on an undergound explosion waiting to happen. Electrocution seems less likely. Costs should be down all round, except for the price of coffee milk.

[DiscoMick]

Offering charging points will become a marketing tool, like Wi-Fi, to persuade people to go there. The free market economics will respond to increasing demand. This will happen rapidly.
There are a lot of new EVs hitting the market next year. Hyundai, for example.

[donh54]

If you're the only roadhouse for a few hundred klms either way, who needs a marketing budget? [biggrin]

[cjc_td5]

I think fitting something like a Nissan Leaf motor direct to the Transfer case will be the best way to go. The Motor Ive used is similar power to the original engine so still need the gearbox. As EV's turn up in salvage yards the options for retrofit will get better.

At the moment there are about 20 converted LandRovers that In know of , from Freelander to RRC , Series One to Defender .

Most have simply replaced the ICE with an Electric motor & keep the gearbox / clutch , Some have bolted a Motor to the front of the Transfer Case .

A few conversions underway now include a bloke is fitting a motor direct to rear diff in a 90 (2WD only) . A 6x6 Perentie is getting a Industrial 3 phase motor bolted to the Gearbox (in Canberra) and theres another guy fitting a Tesla Drive unit to a 110 , I assume RWD only .

Zeros if your on Facebook, have a look at this group
Electric LandRover and 4x4 EV Conversions public group | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1113080125510519/)

Hi Don.
What size motor would you be aiming at for a Disco1 hybrid conversion. You used a HPEVS AC-51 in your lightweight pure EV but it looks like a AC-50 has better power/torque characteristics to operate at 1:1 ratio from the PTO when matched to a TDi engine. Do you go smaller with a hybrid (helper) electric motor?

Probably a thread topic all by itself but I'll start here... :-)

Chris

[goingbush]

Hi Don.
What size motor would you be aiming at for a Disco1 hybrid conversion. You used a HPEVS AC-51 in your lightweight pure EV but it looks like a AC-50 has better power/torque characteristics to operate at 1:1 ratio from the PTO when matched to a TDi engine. Do you go smaller with a hybrid (helper) electric motor?

Probably a thread topic all by itself but I'll start here... :-)

Chris

I went for the AC51 over AC50 because of its higher Voltage , higher voltage being more efficient and easier to wire 45 cells in series for my 144V , rather than a series /parallel configuration I would have needed to 96V

However Now I would go with Netgain Hyper 9 which was not released when I purchased mine, as it cheaper , IP67 sealed and more power . more torque . (100kw 220Nm) Depending on use still not enough for a Disco / Hybrid .

[PhilipA]

As loath as I am to prolong this thread , someone told me yesterday that if a Tesla is Supercharged often , the charging rate is then throttled back permanently to prolong the battery life.
I thought it sounded plausable so I had a look today on Google and found this from the Tesla owners club.
Hmmm.

If you fast charge, Tesla will permanently throttle charging | Tesla Motors Club (https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/if-you-fast-charge-tesla-will-permanently-throttle-charging.90230/)

Regards Philip A

[rick130]

Battery tech is improving and this looks promising Fluoride-based battery challenges lithium for stability and stamina (https://newatlas.com/fluoride-battery-caltech/57563/)

[Zeros]

As loath as I am to prolong this thread , someone told me yesterday that if a Tesla is Supercharged often , the charging rate is then throttled back permanently to prolong the battery life.
I thought it sounded plausable so I had a look today on Google and found this from the Tesla owners club.
Hmmm.

If you fast charge, Tesla will permanently throttle charging | Tesla Motors Club (https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/if-you-fast-charge-tesla-will-permanently-throttle-charging.90230/)

Regards Philip A

It's not surprising, given that all rechargeable batteries lose capacity over time. But it is a concern that it would happen so quickly with an expensive EV.

[goingbush]

As loath as I am to prolong this thread , someone told me yesterday that if a Tesla is Supercharged often , the charging rate is then throttled back permanently to prolong the battery life.
I thought it sounded plausable so I had a look today on Google and found this from the Tesla owners club.
Hmmm.

If you fast charge, Tesla will permanently throttle charging | Tesla Motors Club (https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/if-you-fast-charge-tesla-will-permanently-throttle-charging.90230/)

Regards Philip A

All they need to do is plug the car in at home or when otherwise convenient & not rely on constant supercharging.

The addition of Supercapacitors will idiot proof the car, The Supercapacitors will take on fast charge & then move the energy to the storage pack at a more controlled rate.

Tesla battery expert recommends daily charging limit to optimize durability - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2017/09/01/tesla-battery-expert-recommends-daily-battery-pack-charging/)

Most batteries have a charging rate vs life cycle curve.
The specs on my batteries are 2000 Life cycles at 80% DOD , 3000 at 70% ,
at about 50% & the estimated lifetime is 100,000 cycles , x 50km = 500,000km
(my 28.8 kwh pack returns about 28-30 kwh per 100km )

I usually charge mine before I get to 50% (after about 2-3 days use) to keep the car topped off incase I need to take an unexpected longer trip.

PhilipA, by the time you are begrudgingly forced into an Electric car Im sure all these inconveniant teething issues will be well and truly a distant memory.

[DiscoMick]

Even the manual for my phone says not to charge it for longer than 12 hours.

[Arapiles]

It's not surprising, given that all rechargeable batteries lose capacity over time. But it is a concern that it would happen so quickly with an expensive EV.

Full story is a little different:

Tesla explains why it limits Supercharging speed after high numbers of DC charges - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2017/05/07/tesla-limits-supercharging-speed-number-charges/)

So, the owner was doing something that Tesla is concerned about - charging on DC repeatedly. So, Tesla has throttled back his DC charging and, as Tesla say:

"Important to note, supercharging will always still be available to the vehicle and the battery pack has not yet experienced significant degradation due to the amount of DC fast charging performed on the pack up until this point in time. Vehicle is operating as designed."


Edit: As Goingbush says, in a few years time this will be our everyday existence.

BTW, my wife, who is not the slightest bit car oriented, said to me recently that our next car would be electric.

[CraigE]

As far as 4x4s capable of long distance and prolonged off grid use, I reckon we will still be having this same discussion in 10 years. The take up so far has actually been way below what industry had predicted for full electric and hybrids.

[Zeros]

Full story is a little different:

Tesla explains why it limits Supercharging speed after high numbers of DC charges - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2017/05/07/tesla-limits-supercharging-speed-number-charges/)

So, the owner was doing something that Tesla is concerned about - charging on DC repeatedly. So, Tesla has throttled back his DC charging and, as Tesla say:

"Important to note, supercharging will always still be available to the vehicle and the battery pack has not yet experienced significant degradation due to the amount of DC fast charging performed on the pack up until this point in time. Vehicle is operating as designed."


Edit: As Goingbush says, in a few years time this will be our everyday existence.

BTW, my wife, who is not the slightest bit car oriented, said to me recently that our next car would be electric.

Yes, as I said in first post...it will happen faster than we think.

Especially if long term rapid charging is not an issue for batteries and the roll out of charge points is comprehensive - let’s hope it’s not another NBN!

[donh54]

As far as 4x4s capable of long distance and prolonged off grid use, I reckon we will still be having this same discussion in 10 years. The take up so far has actually been way below what industry had predicted for full electric and hybrids.

Possibly because Aussies tend to do comparatively long distances at holiday times, long weekends, etc. So range anxiety is still a major issue with many. Not to mention the fact that most of the projected take-up figures were gilding the lily, in order to attract government subsidies/start-up funding etc, and simply assumed that the entire motoring population live in inner city apartments, believe in man-made climate change, travel no more than 30klms per day, and can afford to replace their current ICE vehicles with EV's as soon as they hit the showroom floor.

If I could only have one vehicle, at the moment that could not be an EV (possibly a hybrid could do the job, but still not as well as the current ICE vehicle mix does).

[scarry]

Possibly because Aussies tend to do comparatively long distances at holiday times, long weekends, etc. So range anxiety is still a major issue with many. Not to mention the fact that most of the projected take-up figures were gilding the lily, in order to attract government subsidies/start-up funding etc, and simply assumed that the entire motoring population live in inner city apartments, believe in man-made climate change, travel no more than 30klms per day, and can afford to replace their current ICE vehicles with EV's as soon as they hit the showroom floor.

If I could only have one vehicle, at the moment that could not be an EV (possibly a hybrid could do the job, but still not as well as the current ICE vehicle mix does).

The other issue is EV’s are also extremely expensive and resale value is extremely poor.

At the moment,in Australia,they suit very few people’s needs.

[DiscoMick]

The other issue is EV’s are also extremely expensive and resale value is extremely poor.

At the moment,in Australia,they suit very few people’s needs.That will change. I see Hyundai is about to release an EV so it's coming now.

[goingbush]

Possibly because Aussies tend to do comparatively long distances at holiday times, long weekends, etc. So range anxiety is still a major issue with many. Not to mention the fact that most of the projected take-up figures were gilding the lily, in order to attract government subsidies/start-up funding etc, and simply assumed that the entire motoring population live in inner city apartments, believe in man-made climate change, travel no more than 30klms per day, and can afford to replace their current ICE vehicles with EV's as soon as they hit the showroom floor.

If I could only have one vehicle, at the moment that could not be an EV (possibly a hybrid could do the job, but still not as well as the current ICE vehicle mix does).


What ! You mean to say there are people who don't believe that climate change is man made ! The hole in the Ozone layer certainly is , as is the great pacific garbage patch, I'd say we are making a significant impact. The next Ice age is well overdue, I have not read into the science but I imagine Humans are prolonging it. That said the fact that I removed my EGR & DPF from my Iveco is not going to make any difference to air quality in comparison to bushfire & Volcano emissions.

If I could only have one Vehicle to replace my ICE's the Rivian has more an enough range, I have driven further in a day but certainly at the risk of my and other road user safety. But I'll still take the Bollinger even at 2/3 the range of the Rivian.

[goingbush]

The other issue is EV’s are also extremely expensive and resale value is extremely poor.
Brilliant , A cheap source of Motors & Batteries to Retrofit into ICE 4x4's, I can't wait .


At the moment,in Australia,they suit very few people’s needs.

Bollocks, All currently available EV's have more than enough range to suit more than 70% of Australians.

[Geedublya]

Brilliant , A cheap source of Motors & Batteries to Retrofit into ICE 4x4's, I can't wait .



Bollocks, All currently available EV's have more than enough range to suit more than 70% of Australians.


I agree with this but... How will EVs go towing trailers of 2T and greater for long distances.

[goingbush]

I agree with this but... How will EVs go towing trailers of 2T and greater for long distances.

My little LandRover tows a fully loaded trailer to the tip a damn site easier than when it had the petrol motor, in fact I don't even notice any difference up to 60km then the Aerodynamics of the trailer come into play , so with a cleanly designed trailer I don't think it will be much of a problem at all. Infact with a Trailer designed for EV touring with its own Batteries & Motor it could be a boon.

When your not Using the Trailer its battery becomes your houses "Powerwall"

Dethleffs puts a new spin on towing with an electric camping trailer that nearly drives itself (https://newatlas.com/dethleffs-electric-coco-caravan/56056/?fbclid=IwAR1XrvYqvc_8kMjjHz1kXJSGhSFTcB0e6Nk4Mzzt yML8WOiUi655gHitRH4)

[LRJim]

Bollocks, All currently available EV's have more than enough range to suit more than 70% of Australians.

What payload and for what distance have you carried? And what sort of impact does it take on your charge?
You reckon you have no trouble doing tip trips with a trailer? What sort of weight can you tow without draining your batteries?
Just curious, I'm sure the motors have the torque to do what you need but what about the batteries?
Could you travel 150ks with 2+t and a full payload?
Cheers Jim

[OneOff]

All this is very good and I look forward to the incoming technology.

I know the focus of this thread is the ICE and it's demise, but I've always wondered regarding the demise of fossil fuels - "How do we pack 500 people plus luggage into a cigar tube and fly them to Europe or elsewhere in the future?, what replaces AvGas?"

Peter.

[donh54]

What ! You mean to say there are people who don't believe that climate change is man made ! The hole in the Ozone layer certainly is , as is the great pacific garbage patch, I'd say we are making a significant impact. The next Ice age is well overdue, I have not read into the science but I imagine Humans are prolonging it. That said the fact that I removed my EGR & DPF from my Iveco is not going to make any difference to air quality in comparison to bushfire & Volcano emissions.

If I could only have one Vehicle to replace my ICE's the Rivian has more an enough range, I have driven further in a day but certainly at the risk of my and other road user safety. But I'll still take the Bollinger even at 2/3 the range of the Rivian.

Climate change is not man made! [bigwhistle]
The hole in the ozone layer has always been there, and always will be (it moves around a bit, that's all). [bigwhistle]
The next Ice Age is due whenever it arrives - we're still (climatically) coming out of the last one. [bigwhistle]
How many ICE vehicles does it take to make up the equivalent of one volcano, or the output of the recent Qld bushfires? [bighmmm]

[vnx205]

... ... ...
How many ICE vehicles does it take to make up the equivalent of one volcano, or the output of the recent Qld bushfires? [bighmmm]

The answer might surprise you.

Human activities emit 60 or more times the amount of carbon dioxide released by volcanoes each year. Large, violent eruptions may match the rate of human emissions for the few hours that they last, but they are too rare and fleeting to rival humanity’s annual emissions. In fact, several individual U.S. states emit more carbon dioxide in a year than all the volcanoes on the planet combined do.

Which emits more carbon dioxide: volcanoes or human activities? | NOAA Climate.gov (https://www.climate.gov/news-features/climate-qa/which-emits-more-carbon-dioxide-volcanoes-or-human-activities)


Volcanoes and bushfires contribute a lot less than most people think they do.

[goingbush]

What payload and for what distance have you carried? And what sort of impact does it take on your charge?
You reckon you have no trouble doing tip trips with a trailer? What sort of weight can you tow without draining your batteries?
Just curious, I'm sure the motors have the torque to do what you need but what about the batteries?
Could you travel 150ks with 2+t and a full payload?
Cheers Jim

no , mine is a DIY EV , its does not have half the range of anything you can buy. Towing has less effect than a strong headwind, Deiesls are better at towing than Petrol, Electric that much better again than Diesel. If they have the torque to go from zero to 60 mph in 3 seconds , towing wont affect the batteries . Also think of the extra regeneration your going to get with the trailer downhill.

[DiscoMick]

Hyundai is about to release an EV Kona with a range of up to 480 ks, so that could certainly tow a box trailer to the tip.
Surveys show the average Aussie travels less than 50ks a day, so that's plenty for normal use.
We drove from Coffs Harbour to Sydney today, which is 570ks of easy driving on the upgraded motorway, so a Kona could do that with a lunch break at a service centre for an 80% recharge in 50 minutes.
Electric 4WDs and trucks are on the way.

[LRJim]

Interesting read had a quick skim, towing capacity and range closer to the bottom.
Cheers Jim
https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/tesla-model-x-2017-tow-test-106452/

[bee utey]

All this is very good and I look forward to the incoming technology.

I know the focus of this thread is the ICE and it's demise, but I've always wondered regarding the demise of fossil fuels - "How do we pack 500 people plus luggage into a cigar tube and fly them to Europe or elsewhere in the future?, what replaces AvGas?"

Peter.

With sufficiently abundant renewable energy resources, hydrogen can be generated in bulk for storage and transformation into synthetic fuels such as methanol.

[Geedublya]

My little LandRover tows a fully loaded trailer to the tip a damn site easier than when it had the petrol motor, in fact I don't even notice any difference up to 60km then the Aerodynamics of the trailer come into play , so with a cleanly designed trailer I don't think it will be much of a problem at all. Infact with a Trailer designed for EV touring with its own Batteries & Motor it could be a boon.

When your not Using the Trailer its battery becomes your houses "Powerwall"

Dethleffs puts a new spin on towing with an electric camping trailer that nearly drives itself (https://newatlas.com/dethleffs-electric-coco-caravan/56056/?fbclid=IwAR1XrvYqvc_8kMjjHz1kXJSGhSFTcB0e6Nk4Mzzt yML8WOiUi655gHitRH4)

Just playing devils advocate but I had forgotten about the trailer having driven wheels from it’s own power source.

[bee utey]

I agree with this but... How will EVs go towing trailers of 2T and greater for long distances.

Weight is less important than wind resistance. Much of the energy used to get your 2T up to speed gets returned to the battery on regen.

[scarry]

Bollocks, All currently available EV's have more than enough range to suit more than 70% of Australians.

Rubbish,think of company/work vehicles to start with,loaded,pulling trailers,etc.

And there are many more examples.

I don't know who mentioned range,it isn't the only issue.

[Zeros]

It won’t be long (a few years at most) before all the range and charging issues are resolved. Battery life will improve. Rapid charging points will be absolutely everywhere especially if the owners of them are paid a fee. There will be long range vehicles with double batteries, campers with auxiliary batteries, advances in solar skins and paint... then prices will come down.
Although 160k in ten years with low recharge costs could become the norm at the current rate of vehicle price inflation.

[goingbush]

Rubbish,think of company/work vehicles to start with,loaded,pulling trailers,etc.

And there are many more examples.

I don't know who mentioned range,it isn't the only issue.

Electric Vehicles are not just people movers, they come in Truck size too as well as Utes.



Australian-Made 100% Electric Truck Delivered - Solar Quotes Blog (https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/australia-electric-truck-mb0123/)

SEA Electric – SEA…The Future (http://www.sea-electric.com)

Voltra eCruiser - 100% Electric Light Vehicle for underground mining | Voltra (https://www.voltra.net.au)

[DiscoMick]

Electric motors are more efficient than ICE motors. My electric chain saw is an example. Can you imagine trying to use ICE power tools? Never!

[goingbush]

Electric motors are more efficient than ICE motors. My electric chain saw is an example. Can you imagine trying to use ICE power tools? Never!



https://youtu.be/Nn__9hLJKAk

[DazzaTD5]

Electric Vehicles are not just people movers, they come in Truck size too as well as Utes.



Australian-Made 100% Electric Truck Delivered - Solar Quotes Blog (https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/australia-electric-truck-mb0123/)

SEA Electric – SEA…The Future (http://www.sea-electric.com)

Voltra eCruiser - 100% Electric Light Vehicle for underground mining | Voltra (https://www.voltra.net.au)


ALL of these could have been mainstream in Australia many years ago along with alternative power generation, but I see none of this happening while we have a Gov back by the coal industry and media BS of "low emissions coal" "clean coal" and one of our idiot PM's saying things like how ugly wind farms are (because a dirty emissions belching coal fired power station isnt ugly right??).

We could of (should of) been the world leaders in alternative energy well before other counties.

[loanrangie]

Yes we could have picked up and ran with Solar back in the 80's but we didn't get off the block's.

[bee utey]

Not a bad looking wagon, wonder how long before Oz gets any...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxACGROqQUI

[RANDLOVER]

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGjOY4JBmy4)

It's like "Back To The Future" a Classic Rangie converted to electric.

[PhilipA]

I am pretty sure that this is the car featured in LRO earlier this year.
If so the price of conversion was GBP 50K, using second hand Tesla batteries from crashed cars as Tesla don't sell batteries to anyone.

Regards Philip A

[DiscoMick]

I am pretty sure that this is the car featured in LRO earlier this year.
If so the price of conversion was GBP 50K, using second hand Tesla batteries from crashed cars as Tesla don't sell batteries to anyone.

Regards Philip AYes, I remember that article.

[goingbush]

Used Tesla modules are not that expensive , only US $1295 for 5kwh /21.6V
I would certainly consider them for my next project.
7 modules would give me 35kwh @ 150V = US $9065 (plus delivery) weighing a mere 125Kg ( my 28.8kwh pack weighs 256kg)



EVTV Motor Verks Store: Tesla Model S Battery Module, Tesla Battery Modules, TeslaBattModule (http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=TeslaBattModule)

[manic]

Used Tesla modules are not that expensive , only US $1295 for 5kwh /21.6V
I would certainly consider them for my next project.
7 modules would give me 35kwh @ 150V = US $9065 (plus delivery) weighing a mere 125Kg ( my 28.8kwh pack weighs 256kg)



EVTV Motor Verks Store: Tesla Model S Battery Module, Tesla Battery Modules, TeslaBattModule (http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=TeslaBattModule)I have 16 of them ;). Will probably offload a few early next year.

[DiscoMick]

A friend has about 860 laptop batteries powering his house. Knocked up a timber frame to house them. Only cost him about $300 from memory.
How many laptop batteries would it take to power a vehicle 5000? (wild guess).

[LRJim]

See when that dick Jesse James made an EV out of Milwaukee batteries?
This was about 10 years ago now
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181213/47e2d691d2bf997414cb417d85154c6b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181213/0f9eff3870dcae99c8181e055f77373c.jpg

[Don 130]

And here's another 'ute'. Very American in it's styling, but this one has a range extender BMW engine and is all wheel drive, though probably not what we would consider four wheel drive for the rough going, at least not with that bodywork.
They'll be everywhere soon.

W-15 Pickup | Workhorse (https://workhorse.com/pickup/)

Workhorse powers up range-extended electric pickup truck (https://newatlas.com/workhorse-w-15-phev-pickup/49372/)

Don.

[NavyDiver]

I still think the fuel cells will be the real game changer for us. Would not mind putting kit from the W15 kit into a Disco. The range would make it more than workable. Loved the towing capacity as that seem the weak link in all EVs at present.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot? (Hyundai Plans $6.7 Billion Investment to Boost Fuel-Cell Output) (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-11/hyundai-plans-6-7-billion-investment-to-boost-fuel-cell-output)

[goingbush]

I still think the fuel cells will be the real game changer for us. Would not mind putting kit from the W15 kit into a Disco. The range would make it more than workable. Loved the towing capacity as that seem the weak link in all EVs at present.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot? (Hyundai Plans $6.7 Billion Investment to Boost Fuel-Cell Output) (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-11/hyundai-plans-6-7-billion-investment-to-boost-fuel-cell-output)


I can't see Fuel Cells being practical or affordable for Electric Cars in the next 15 years if at all, Battery tech is proceeding fast enough to make them irrelevant , Maybe useful for EV Aviation though where initial outlay is not such a consideration .

[Arapiles]

New record for fast charging:

Ultra-high-power charging technology for the electric vehicle of the future (https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/company/porsche-fastcharge-prototype-charging-station-ultra-high-power-charging-technology-electric-vehicle-16606.html)

[goingbush]

New record for fast charging:

Ultra-high-power charging technology for the electric vehicle of the future (https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/company/porsche-fastcharge-prototype-charging-station-ultra-high-power-charging-technology-electric-vehicle-16606.html)


3 minutes for 100km [bawl], Get ready for the backlash ... People are be going to up in arms, That leaves bugger all time to sit back and enjoy a newspaper and coffee [bigwhistle]

[weeds]

3 minutes for 100km [bawl], Get ready for the backlash ... People are be going to up in arms, That leaves bugger all time to sit back and enjoy a newspaper and coffee [bigwhistle]

Won’t be quick enough for some, other will day it’s only 100km.......

I read somewhere yesterday about cordless charging.......I meant to grab the link. Perfect for home charging.

[Zeros]

So who's planning to convert their Defender to be an EV? ...I reckon within 5 years the whole country will be networked with fast chargers and all new domestic vehicles will be electric, with diesel being phased out much faster than we think.

[Arapiles]

Nissan's e-Note technology could make it into their proper 4WDs:

https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/nissan-note-e-power-2018-review-111177/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIl6SP2oyj3wIVGCUrCh34GQSJEAAYASA AEgICEfD_BwE

Basically, it's a Leaf with a smaller battery and a permanent range extender and no way to recharge from mains power. Using an ICE like this is actually more efficient than using the engine to run the wheels, with the result that it gets around 2.9l/100km, so has a range of about 1300km from a 47 litre tank. That's roughly the economy of a small motorbike. Presumably a standard Note would get around 5/6 l/100km in the same conditions, so it's still a useful improvement.

The Y62 could do with a system like this ... even at 10l/100km it's range on its current tank would be 1400km. And no second battery set-up required for the fridge ...

[goingbush]

So who's planning to convert their Defender to be an EV? ...I reckon within 5 years the whole country will be networked with fast chargers and all new domestic vehicles will be electric, with diesel being phased out much faster than we think.

That is true for the Rest of the World, Australia will be a few years behind . Since we have no Automotive Manufacturing here we might still be getting the ICE rubbish that no one else wants for a few years more. Then it will be pretty much all EV a few years later.

Diesel should come down in price during the transition as there will be a glut. After that if you want to keep driving your Defender your going to be looking at EV conversions , by which time there will be a nice little market in Used Nissan Leaf motors & batteries.

Im thinking about setting up an EV Conversion business , either Drive in Drive out or selling DIY Kits but Defender people being what they are I'm not sure many are going to want to shell out 25K on a conversion that will keep their vehicle on the road ad-infinitum.

[DiscoMick]

I'm confident EVs will take off more rapidly than many expect, but I still think ICE vehicles will be around for quite a while, as will petrol and diesel.
Servos will have to install banks of chargers to entice EV owners in to lunch while their vehicles charge.

[Zeros]

Agree GB, it is a very good business opportunity (maybe we should join forces :) I actually think that many would pay $20-25K for a well designed conversion, especially because most new EV’s will be expensive for some time. I reckon Defender owners will be very keen because the new Defender will be $80K+ Is really a D4 and there’s such a strong history of modifying real Defenders. [bigwhistle]

...as long as it doesn’t go the way of gas conversions...but that’s less likely as EV will be mainstream.

But I think you’re right Mick, it will happen here a lot faster than we can imagine. You only have to look at the rapid take-up of all other tech here in oz. ...the market will grow very fast when ICE’s are no longer available new.

[DiscoMick]

People pay over $20k just to fix the rear suspension on their Toyota 70 series, so a whole Defender EV conversion for similar money is in the ball park.

[Zeros]

Exactly. And people pay over $20K to accessorise their vehicles too.

..if a vehicle that is fully accessorised already can be renewed as an EV for a fraction of a new EV price, it will be very popular.

[JDNSW]

Exactly. And people pay over $20K to accessorise their vehicles too.

..if a vehicle that is fully accessorised already can be renewed as an EV for a fraction of a new EV price, it will be very popular.

Some people do. Most people I know do not spend $20k on their car - a lot more cars are bought second hand than new. (And no, this is not a conundrum - most cars are in the second hand market several times, but sell new once.)

I would certainly be interested in an electric conversion of my County, and my 2a for that matter. And if it can be done for under $20k I would possibly be able to find the funds. But I seriously doubt that this will be possible within ten years, at least to provide adequate range and towing ability.


While I agree that EVs are coming to mainstream use within five years, I am very dubious about predictions of diesel becoming unavailable in the foreseeable future. I don't see, for example, electric tractors capable of running non-stop for eighteen hours a day after it rains (and producing 200 drawbar HP), or headers capable of running 24 hours with only stops to change drivers. As pointed out, as EVs become popular, diesel (and petrol) should decline in price as usage decreases, which may decrease the rate of takeup for EVs.

[Zeros]

All good points JD, especially in terms of affordability for the majority. Although I’m concerned that this is rarely taken into account by authorities who seem to think everyone earns $100K per year! Power, water, gas, rates, land tax, phone, internet, not to mention the cost of other private essential services such as food, mechanics, trades, etc which all seem to be increasing in price exponentially.

Despite our mind bogglingly high cost of living, the economy here seems to keep growing.

I’m no economist, but think the opposite might happen in terms of diesel prices. As EVs become the norm, petroleum products will become more expensive due to less demand and higher production cost ratios.

But I agree it will be many years before there’s no diesel, supply will continue. The bigger issue may be legislation against diesel vehicles due to environmental, political and public pressure imperatives.

Very interesting discussion

[DiscoMick]

If there is a shift to EVs making us less reliant on petroleum fuels we will not need to import as much fuel so that will reduce our import bill and improve the balance of payments.
I see there is a proposal to manufacture lithium batteries in Australia so that would be good too. We have the raw materials and the skills, so we should do it, I think, instead of taking the short-sighted way of importing everything.

[goingbush]

Some people do. Most people I know do not spend $20k on their car - a lot more cars are bought second hand than new. (And no, this is not a conundrum - most cars are in the second hand market several times, but sell new once.)

I would certainly be interested in an electric conversion of my County, and my 2a for that matter. And if it can be done for under $20k I would possibly be able to find the funds. But I seriously doubt that this will be possible within ten years, at least to provide adequate range and towing ability.


While I agree that EVs are coming to mainstream use within five years, I am very dubious about predictions of diesel becoming unavailable in the foreseeable future. I don't see, for example, electric tractors capable of running non-stop for eighteen hours a day after it rains (and producing 200 drawbar HP), or headers capable of running 24 hours with only stops to change drivers. As pointed out, as EVs become popular, diesel (and petrol) should decline in price as usage decreases, which may decrease the rate of takeup for EVs.


JD, JD are working on it , baby steps !


https://youtu.be/TJOyITolHUk

[JDNSW]

All good points JD, especially in terms of affordability for the majority. Although I’m concerned that this is rarely taken into account by authorities who seem to think everyone earns $100K per year! Power, water, gas, rates, land tax, phone, internet, not to mention the cost of other private essential services such as food, mechanics, trades, etc which all seem to be increasing in price exponentially.

Despite our mind bogglingly high cost of living, the economy here seems to keep growing.

Despite all the complaints, when I look back at my life, and that of my parents, I see that we currently have an unimaginably high standard of living compared to even a few decades ago. Sure, our houses cost a lot more - but speaking as someone who grew up sharing a bedroom with my brother, in a house whose roof leaked when it rained, with no hot water system, no heating, definitely no airconditioning, no phone, no flush toilets, it is hardly surprising that it costs more. And taking into account the inflated currency, most of this does not cost more!

My father admitted not owning a pair of shoes until he started high school - and he grew up in Orange!

I’m no economist, but think the opposite might happen in terms of diesel prices. As EVs become the norm, petroleum products will become more expensive due to less demand and higher production cost ratios.

Most petroleum production does not work like that - the major cost is the capital cost of exploration, drilling, and installing production facilities. With a substantial drop in demand, and these already in place, for these fields, the tendency will be to increase production to try and make up for lower prices. High ongoing production cost fields, such as a lot of those using tertiary production and some unconventional fields, and fields with low production per well will shut down, leaving the world average production cost lower. Eventually, as low cost fields are depleted, costs for oil will rise, but if demand drops substantially, as I expect it will, this could take a long time.

Of course, since the major part of the cost of the fuel you buy is government take (royalties plus taxes), which can be changed at the stroke of a pen, the physical limitations only provide an overall constraint!

But I agree it will be many years before there’s no diesel, supply will continue. The bigger issue may be legislation against diesel vehicles due to environmental, political and public pressure imperatives.

Very interesting discussion

A lot of things seem to be increasing in price, but also, allowing for inflation, a lot of things are decreasing in price. For example, almost anything manufactured. And we expect a lot of things that either did not exist a few decades ago, or were so expensive that no ordinary person even considered them. Some of these include sealed roads, airconditioning anywhere, most of the medical treatment available today, cheap air travel, international holidays, and so on. And some things that were never considered necessary are now considered necessary and add to cost - this would include a lot of safety rules, the ever increasing red tape, the growing surveillance society.

[JDNSW]

If there is a shift to EVs making us less reliant on petroleum fuels we will not need to import as much fuel so that will reduce our import bill and improve the balance of payments.
I see there is a proposal to manufacture lithium batteries in Australia so that would be good too. We have the raw materials and the skills, so we should do it, I think, instead of taking the short-sighted way of importing everything.

Don't forget that the same trends that will lead to less reliance on petroleum fuels will presumably mean a drop in exports of coal and LNG, two of our major export earners. Not clear what this would mean for the balance of payments!

[goingbush]

A lot of things seem to be increasing in price, but also, allowing for inflation, a lot of things are decreasing in price. For example, almost anything manufactured. And we expect a lot of things that either did not exist a few decades ago, or were so expensive that no ordinary person even considered them. Some of these include sealed roads, airconditioning anywhere, most of the medical treatment available today, cheap air travel, international holidays, and so on. And some things that were never considered necessary are now considered necessary and add to cost - this would include a lot of safety rules, the ever increasing red tape, the growing surveillance society.

Could not agree with you more on this one. The world is heading for an implosion, it cant keep going the way it is , Absolutely No one needs any of this unnecessary crap . Every morning I look up and see multiple contrails, and shake my head the mind boggles, how the hell did humanity exist without inter-city airline travel and all this useless garbage & techno crap people cant seem to exist without.

[vnx205]

A lot of things seem to be increasing in price, but also, allowing for inflation, a lot of things are decreasing in price.

I heard an interesting claim recently. I think that it is true but haven't been able to find data to prove it conclusively.

The claim was that in spite of all the current fuss about electricity prices, we are paying the same percentage of our income today as we were ten years ago and twenty years ago.

I suspect that around a decade ago and two decades ago wages rose faster than electricity prices so it was actually cheaper as a percentage of income. In the last few years electricity prices have risen but wages haven't, so it now costs the same percentage of our income again.

On the subject of EVs, I think if I had a huge disposable income I would probably buy an EV; not because I wanted to save the planet or because I wanted to save money, but because it would be nice to have one. I wonder how many other potential customers have the same irrational reason for buying an EV. I'm sure a lot of our purchasing decisions are not based on sound reasons.

However, I am not in that position and am never likely to be. So I satisfy myself by reading about advances in the technology and watching video clips of standard Teslas at drag meetings leaving powerful V8s in their wake. :)

[goingbush]

Looks interesting

Plower - Land Rover Defender, Electric conversion, Rebuilds and Overland - Electric Defender (https://www.plower.nl/electric-defender)

[DiscoMick]

Looks interesting

Plower - Land Rover Defender, Electric conversion, Rebuilds and Overland - Electric Defender (https://www.plower.nl/electric-defender)That does look interesting.
I think the tipping point may be a retail price of about $50k and a range of 400ks+.
On those criteria, the Hyundai Kona EV about to be released has a 480k range and a price of about $50k, so that's proof it can be done.
JLR bet big on its Ingenium turbo diesel range just as the VW scandal damaged the reputation of diesels, plus they delayed the Defender too long.
Also, Brexit has damaged the British economy already and it will only get worse.
I see JLR is shifting Discovery production from the UK to Slovakia to cut costs.
But they really need to get affordable hybrid and EV versions out to buyers.

Jaguar Land Rover to 'axe up to 5,000 jobs'

Jaguar Land Rover to 'axe up to 5,000 jobs' | Business | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/dec/16/jaguar-land-rover-to-axe-up-to-5000-jobs?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[Zeros]

Looks interesting

Plower - Land Rover Defender, Electric conversion, Rebuilds and Overland - Electric Defender (https://www.plower.nl/electric-defender)

Indeed. Well if that’s for real we’ll be driving electric Defenders tomorrow.

Brexit, VW, Climate change and now price parity means there’s nothing stopping the roll out of fast chargers across the country ...unless of course NBN Co. are involved LOL.

Investors are clamouring to buy into the manufacturers of the charging network.

This time next year we’ll be discussing mass Defender conversions for real and which brand of solar skin / solar paint apply.

[Grumbles]

So I satisfy myself by reading about advances in the technology and watching video clips of standard Teslas at drag meetings leaving powerful V8s in their wake. :)

The acceleration rate of the EVs may prove to be a problem in that the average driver is not skilled enough to control such an off the mark quick vehicle and the accident rate will soar.

Will governments step in and order an artificial acceleration rate be built into these EVs to slow them down?

[Arapiles]

The acceleration rate of the EVs may prove to be a problem in that the average driver is not skilled enough to control such an off the mark quick vehicle and the accident rate will soar.

Will governments step in and order an artificial acceleration rate be built into these EVs to slow them down?


From my ride in a Tesla S I presume it's only when you slam the accelerator down that it does that - it'd be a bit odd for the engineers to design hair-trigger acceleration in a road-vehicle.

[Grumbles]

it'd be a bit odd for the engineers to design hair-trigger acceleration in a road-vehicle.


Q - Tesla also happened to show off its newest sports car which claimed not only an unheard of acceleration from zero-to-60 miles per hour in 1.9 seconds, but also a top speed of over 250 mph - UQ

[JDNSW]

The acceleration rate of the EVs may prove to be a problem in that the average driver is not skilled enough to control such an off the mark quick vehicle and the accident rate will soar.

Will governments step in and order an artificial acceleration rate be built into these EVs to slow them down?

That comment reminds me of the owners handbook of the Simca my father bought in 1959 - It had a prominent warning about the acceleration and performance. Somewhat heavier than the contemporary Holden, but with far better brakes, it had all of 80HP from a flat head V8!

[goingbush]

Q - Tesla also happened to show off its newest sports car which claimed not only an unheard of acceleration from zero-to-60 miles per hour in 1.9 seconds, but also a top speed of over 250 mph - UQ

I wonder if P Platers can legally drive them ? No Turbo , No V8 !!

[Arapiles]

I wonder if P Platers can legally drive them ? No Turbo , No V8 !!

Well, in Victoria it looks like they're all OK:

VicRoads Vehicles (https://vicroadssafevehicles.carsalesnetwork.com.au/#/search;make=Tesla;status=approved;page=1;sortBy=Ma keModel)

In Vic the test for cars built after 2010 is kw/tonne or is modified rather than whether the car has a turbo or a certain number of cylinders.

Edit: but I was surprised to discover that the restrictions for pre-2010 vehicles are still turbo/V8/modified.

[DazzaTD5]

EV mainstream in Australia in 5 years?

No, not a chance..... Australia - ACT ... Australian Coal Territory.

[SBD4]

I wonder if P Platers can legally drive them ? No Turbo , No V8 !!
The threshold is 130Kw/tonne.

[PhilipA]

Fall Leaf sales fall: Nissan Leaf sales collapse in Ontario after incentive axedcharles the moderator (https://wattsupwiththat.com/author/jeeztheadmin/) / 21 hours ago January 14, 2019 (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/01/14/fall-leaf-sales-fall-nissan-leaf-sales-collapse-in-ontario-after-incentive-axed/)
From Automotive News Canada (https://canada.autonews.com/retail/nissan-leaf-sales-collapse-ontario-after-incentive-axed?fbclid=IwAR0TG6ogrBy9BC8p6nF_ichzfEhEaxXXWM_7 teVlzE16JvhiRdo9UN_RtGs)
Stephanie Wallcraft (https://canada.autonews.com/author/stephanie-wallcraft)
https://crain-platform-autonews-canada-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/styles/width_792/public/LEAF_Nissan_Energy_Share.JPG<img src="https://crain-platform-autonews-canada-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/styles/width_792/public/LEAF_Nissan_Energy_Share.JPG" alt="" /> (https://crain-platform-autonews-canada-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/LEAF_Nissan_Energy_Share.JPG)
Since the Ford government in Ontario in July ended rebates of up to $14,000 and the final recipients were registered Sept. 10, sales of the Nissan Leaf have all but collapsed. Photo: Nissan
There is little question that rebates are essential to selling EVs, but no one really knew just how much until now.
Sales of electrified vehicles have plummeted in Ontario since the Doug Ford government removed purchase incentives, and Quebec dealers are reaping the benefits as inventory is reallocated, slashing their wait times for delivery.
Since the Ford government in July ended rebates of up to $14,000 and the final recipients were registered Sept. 10, sales of the Nissan Leaf have all but collapsed. In August, 695 units were sold. In November, just 10, according to figures supplied by Nissan Canada. In Quebec in November alone, 283 units were sold.
General Motors of Canada declined to provide data, but spokeswoman Ester Bucci said the brand has “seen a decline of EV sales” since the rebate’s cancellation, noting that sales in Quebec and British Columbia, where incentives remain in place, are holding strong with Chevrolet Bolt sales posting an overall nationwide increase of 30 per cent year over year. The automaker didn’t provide a brand or model breakdown for December sales.
Chris Budd, owner of Budds’ Group of Companies, which operates nine dealerships in Oakville and Hamilton, Ont., told Automotive News Canada he has seen a decline in interest in EVs at his storefronts.
“We do find [EVs have] pulled back in consideration and sales,” he said. “Our GM facility sold and delivered 91 electric cars last year when the credit was in place. We expect less than 20 with no credit in place.
“It was a growing business and we would have forecast an increase had the credit stayed in place. Supply was always a problem as availability was very lean from GM.”
BUYERS WAIT AND SEE?
Budd said he wasn’t sure whether the decline was due to an untenable price for EVs without the subsidy, or whether consumers were waiting to see whether Ottawa would offer an alternative rebate program.
“There is no doubt that the consumer for electric was somewhat different … more conscious of the environment, new technology, being ground breakers, etc., so we believe some of the backdraft that is present now after the cancellation of credits will pass,” he said. “I believe the credit was too high in Ontario, and if there were a federal program of a more tenable cost/credit was available, we would have a logical uptick.”
Meanwhile, dealers in Quebec are celebrating as automakers redistribute inventory to their stores, dramatically reducing wait times.
“We are receiving an incremental amount of hybrid vehicles in Quebec,” said Denis Leclerc, president of the Albi group of dealerships. “As an example, in our Hyundai dealerships, ordering a hybrid vehicle used to take three to four months. Now, we talk about three to four weeks.
“Another example is Chevrolet. Last year, it took six months to receive a Bolt, and now it takes eight to 10 weeks. We also have Volt in our inventory, and last year this wasn’t the case.”
Read the full story here. (https://canada.autonews.com/retail/nissan-leaf-sales-collapse-ontario-after-incentive-axed?fbclid=IwAR0TG6ogrBy9BC8p6nF_ichzfEhEaxXXWM_7 teVlzE16JvhiRdo9UN_RtGs)
HT/.. (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/01/02/2018-saw-a-global-revolt-against-climate-change-policies/)


. (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/01/15/the-debate-continues-more-discount-rates-and-candy-canes/).

[goingbush]

EV mainstream in Australia in 5 years?

No, not a chance..... Australia - ACT ... Australian Coal Territory.


Where are the ICE vehicles going to come from, No one will be making them in 5 years .

[LRJim]

They will come from companys like CAT, Kubota etc well thats my guess. There will always be a market for diesel work horse's, espeically in AU. I reckon the truck manufacturers would even get on board, MACK ute anyone?
ICE will be around for as long as the fuel will be or until ICE is completely banned.

[goingbush]

They will come from companys like CAT, Kubota etc well thats my guess. There will always be a market for diesel work horse's, espeically in AU. I reckon the truck manufacturers would even get on board, MACK ute anyone?
ICE will be around for as long as the fuel will be or until ICE is completely banned.



Maybe, but then theres this from Mack,

Electric propulsion confirmed for Mack Trucks | Heavy Vehicles (https://heavyvehicles.com.au/2018/04/26/electric-propulsion-confirmed-for-mack-trucks/)


and Cummins

Electric Power | Cummins Inc. (https://www.cummins.com/electrification)

Cummins Beats Tesla To The Punch, Unveiling Heavy Duty Electric Truck (https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2017/08/29/take-that-tesla-diesel-engine-giant-cummins-unveils-heavy-duty-truck-powered-by-electricity/#3190dac178f1)

Charged EVs | Cummins (https://chargedevs.com/tag/cummins/)

[LRJim]

Maybe, but then theres this from Mack,

Electric propulsion confirmed for Mack Trucks | Heavy Vehicles (https://heavyvehicles.com.au/2018/04/26/electric-propulsion-confirmed-for-mack-trucks/)


and Cummins

Electric Power | Cummins Inc. (https://www.cummins.com/electrification)

Cummins Beats Tesla To The Punch, Unveiling Heavy Duty Electric Truck (https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2017/08/29/take-that-tesla-diesel-engine-giant-cummins-unveils-heavy-duty-truck-powered-by-electricity/#3190dac178f1)

Charged EVs | Cummins (https://chargedevs.com/tag/cummins/)I had that in the back of my mind, wondering when they would be getting the ball rolling. Seems it already has, next is the machinery mobs. Full EV earthmoving moving machinery, tractors and harvesters would be interesting. Most would have enough roofspace for a few solar panels and an inverter tucked away, when they can charge themselves is the next step.
Cheers Jim

[goingbush]

Even Military are getting on the bandwagon = Big Money spent of R&D Contracts ,

The US army has its sights set on all-electric tanks | Alphr (https://www.alphr.com/cars/1007425/the-us-army-has-its-sights-set-on-all-electric-tanks)

U.S. Military Electric Vehicle Initiative Gets a $20 Million, 500-Vehicle Boost (https://cleantechnica.com/2013/01/13/500-more-military-electric-vehicles-under-ev-to-grid-program/)

should be a boost to bringing forward battery tech, maybe even RTG recharging (nuclear)

[JDNSW]

Where are the ICE vehicles going to come from, No one will be making them in 5 years .

I think you are either an optimist or joking. I will be most surprised if EVs overtake ICE vehicles in sales in less than ten years. But I'll surprised if they are not taking a big chunk of the market by then.

[goingbush]

I think you are either an optimist or joking. I will be most surprised if EVs overtake ICE vehicles in sales in less than ten years. But I'll surprised if they are not taking a big chunk of the market by then.

Experts are saying Peak ICE was 2018 , apparently the market is slowing down buying new cars and holding out for EV's . The Manufacturers are gearing up for EV's . 5 years is a bit optimistic but it seems the transition will be a lot faster than was predicted 12 months ago.

Was 2018 the year of peak combustion engine? | MNN - Mother Nature Network (https://www.mnn.com/green-tech/transportation/stories/was-2018-year-peak-combustion-engine)


Rolls Royce is about the only maker that is not planning an EV (leaving that to Bentliegh) but they are getting right into Electric Aviation.

[Zeros]

Experts are saying Peak ICE was 2018 , apparently the market is slowing down buying new cars and holding out for EV's . The Manufacturers are gearing up for EV's . 5 years is a bit optimistic but it seems the transition will be a lot faster than was predicted 12 months ago.

Was 2018 the year of peak combustion engine? | MNN - Mother Nature Network (https://www.mnn.com/green-tech/transportation/stories/was-2018-year-peak-combustion-engine)


Rolls Royce is about the only maker that is not planning an EV (leaving that to Bentliegh) but they are getting right into Electric Aviation.

Makes total sense to me. With the rapid global uptake of new technologies and blatantly obvious climate change, it will be 5 years max that buying a new ICE vehicle will be almost impossible imo.

[Jojo]

I think you are either an optimist or joking. I will be most surprised if EVs overtake ICE vehicles in sales in less than ten years. But I'll surprised if they are not taking a big chunk of the market by then.

In Norway, almost 50% of all new cars sold are EVs
147553
This pic shows last September's figures, but refers only to EVs, not considering hybrids. By now, the percentage should be even better. The Norwegian government assumes no ICE vehicle will be sold after 2025, eliminating the need for legislative measures.

[JDNSW]

I think you are over estimating the rate at which the motor industry can change. Even bringing out a completely new model from an established manufacturer usually takes close to ten years, and this involves replacing virtually every model car on sale, as well as major changes to infrastructure and procedures worldwide. And few involved have even started looking at it seriously more than a couple of years ago.

I cannot think of any industry of comparable size that has changed as rapidly as you are suggesting. Mobile phone technology is the one that will obviously be suggested - but effectively this was a new industry, not the redirecting of an old one, and there is a major difference between making and introducing a device weighing a few hundred grams and one weighing a few thousand kilograms and costing a hundred times as much.

But we will see how things work out over the next few years. If you are right, we won't have to wait as long as the wait for a Defender replacement!

[PhilipA]

Experts are saying Peak ICE was 2018 , apparently the market is slowing down buying new cars and holding out for EV's . The Manufacturers are gearing up for EV's . 5 years is a bit optimistic but it seems the transition will be a lot faster than was predicted 12 months ago.


Yeah, and "experts" said that 2009 was Peak Oil.

I think in 10 years the ICE engine will be quoting Mark Twain.

It all depends on what the take up will be of EVs with no subsidies. The article I posted about Ontario shows that EV sales plummet with no subsidies.
Of course there will be a pent up demand this year in Australia when all the virtue signalers like Green local Councils buy EVs, but I will be interested to see how many private citizens buy a Hyundai EV vs a Hybrid or another model, which in case the fan boys don't know has an ICE .

I can recall when NSW Agriculture bought quite a few Priuses which were then exiled to the country where they were useless and the staff tried to destroy them. Of Course the executive preferred their Statesmen. .

How many private citizens will buy a $54 K EV vs the same size ICE at say 25K? especially when the battery may last only 8 years , and cost ? ($15K-20K???) to replace. An ICE engine these days is just getting into its prime at 160,000KM.

Regards Philip A
BTW, the posters seem to forget that the three or four most popular vehicles in Australia are twin Cab utes with a diesel engine. This is vastly different to Europe. In The Middle east they even ban diesels as they want to sell petrol so I cannot see Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Kuwait, and other oil producers switching to EVs. The makers of these diesels are already innovating with smaller more powerful engines.

[goingbush]

BTW, the posters seem to forget that the three or four most popular vehicles in Australia are twin Cab utes with a diesel engine. This is vastly different to Europe. In The Middle east they even ban diesels as they want to sell petrol so I cannot see Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Kuwait, and other oil producers switching to EVs. The makers of these diesels are already innovating with smaller more powerful engines.



Yes mate, we will see how that goes.
the makers have left their run with smaller more powerful engines too late, they had the tech years ago but held off too long.
Writing is on the wall.



Middle East among the pioneers of electric car adoption - The National (https://www.thenational.ae/business/technology/middle-east-among-the-pioneers-of-electric-car-adoption-1.787863)

55 new e-car models to come to UAE. 10 reasons to buy - Khaleej Times (https://www.khaleejtimes.com/nation/dubai/55-new-e-car-models-to-come-to-UAE-10-reasons-to-buy)

Lucid Motors secures $1 billion from Saudi wealth fund to launch the Air – TechCrunch (https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/17/lucid-motors-secures-1-billion-from-saudi-wealth-fund-to-launch-the-air/)

[RANDLOVER]

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMfxJEfb4lw)

This "Rivian" fully electric SUV/Pick Up is impressive if it lives up to it's spec's in real world conditions.

[DiscoMick]

Tesla's are outselling luxury vehicles in the USA, I see.
I reckon we will hit a tipping point very soon and EV sales will soar as mass production of lithium batteries sees costs fall, which is why EV vehicle companies are also building their own lithium battery factories. Five years from now, this will seem normal.

[JDNSW]

Tesla's are outselling luxury vehicles in the USA, I see.
.....

Yes - but luxury vehicles represent a tiny proportion of the worldwide market (not quite as tiny a proportion of the $), and are the obvious target for a new paradigm in any market - again, the obvious comparison is the mobile phone, but here most of the phones sold worldwide are cheap android phones, not iPhones.

And the USA is only one market, albeit a very important one.

[Homestar]

3 to 5 years yes I think you’re right. With the big players releasing cars this year - like Hyundai with the Ioniq, it’s only a matter of time but costs still need to drop dramatically IMO. The Ioniq is twice the price of a base model I30 with the exact same spec level, so buying one now is still a luxury purchase that most people can’t afford.

I’d love one, but at nearly $50K well out of my price range whereas a mid spec I30 isn’t at under $30K. Those that jump early will be hit with massive depreciation as each new model will be cheaper as years roll on.

And what will battery prices drop to? They’ve fallen quite dramatically and consistently for many years now, but they still need to be under $100/kwh - which Tesla is leading the way on, and they claim next year for a battery pack at this price, but for most manufacturers this is still a few years off at least. With batteries priced at this level, I think Tesla then need to concentrate on making their cars overall cheaper if they want to stay ahead of the game within 5 years or so as the giants will be nipping at their heels in the not too distant future.

Exciting times. 👍

[JDNSW]

If Tesla is run along the lines dictated by Harvard Business School, which, as a public company, is to be expected, what Tesla will do rather than reducing prices of their cars will be to increase margin on cars until significant competition appears, dropping prices gradually, only to keep the order books full, so that they are able to drop prices to meet competition.

With them able clearly to sell every car they can make at current prices, they should be using fat margins to improve the design of both the cars and the production facilities. Much as buyers would like to see their prices dropping significantly, this is unlikely to happen until other manufacturers provide substantial competition - which they are not doing at present.

As far as Australia is concerned, the exchange rate is going to be the major factor.

[DiscoMick]

Tesla is already moving to make smaller cheaper cars. They will flood the markets.
Companies, including Tesla and JLR, are building their own battery plants to bring down the costs.
You're right the current cost is higher, but early adopters will still pay it, while the rest of us wait.
As battery packs are built into new high selling models EV prices will fall. For example, imagine an EV i30 or Mazda 3. Toyota is already selling a hybrid Corolla for $31,870, which is only up $1500 on the regular Corolla.
Wait till Toyota releases a hybrid Hilux and Ford a hybrid Ranger and watch the buyers stampede to get them. Why wouldn't a trade buy a hybrid truck with a 3-400 km range that he can recharge at home for little cost, compared with spending $100 a week on diesel? It's a no-brainer and a tax deductible expense.
EVs are coming fast.

[JDNSW]

Tesla is already moving to make smaller cheaper cars. They will flood the markets.
Companies, including Tesla and JLR, are building their own battery plants to bring down the costs.
You're right the current cost is higher, but early adopters will still pay it, while the rest of us wait.
As battery packs are built into new high selling models EV prices will fall. For example, imagine an EV i30 or Mazda 3. Toyota is already selling a hybrid Corolla for $31,870, which is only up $1500 on the regular Corolla.
Wait till Toyota releases a hybrid Hilux and Ford a hybrid Ranger and watch the buyers stampede to get them. Why wouldn't a trade buy a hybrid truck with a 3-400 km range that he can recharge at home for little cost, compared with spending $100 a week on diesel? It's a no-brainer and a tax deductible expense.
EVs are coming fast.

Tesla is not going to flood any markets in the near future - they simply do not have the production capacity to do so, nor the capital to expand it to a substantial extent. And even if they had the capital, it takes time to build and staff the sort of capacity needed.

Probably the most effective way Tesla could make very large increases in production is to licence production by other manufacturers who have the capacity. This would probably require Tesla to modify their direct sale model, which is possible, and would also require the other manufacturer to swallow a lot of pride - something that is quite likely if sales start to be badly impacted by EVs for a manufacturer that has a lot of catching up to do. But any arrangement of this sort would take years from agreement to the first production.

I'm afraid the closer I look at it, the less likely five years sounds as the end of ICE production - or even of EVs taking a substantial part of the market.

[DiscoMick]

Tesla production has spiked, with 63,000 model 3s sold in the third quarter of 2018 in the USA alone.
• Tesla: vehicle deliveries by quarter 2018 | Statistic (https://www.statista.com/statistics/502208/tesla-quarterly-vehicle-deliveries/)

[scarry]

3 to 5 years yes I think you’re right. With the big players releasing cars this year - like Hyundai with the Ioniq, it’s only a matter of time but costs still need to drop dramatically IMO. The Ioniq is twice the price of a base model I30 with the exact same spec level, so buying one now is still a luxury purchase that most people can’t afford.

I’d love one, but at nearly $50K well out of my price range whereas a mid spec I30 isn’t at under $30K. Those that jump early will be hit with massive depreciation as each new model will be cheaper as years roll on.

And what will battery prices drop to? They’ve fallen quite dramatically and consistently for many years now, but they still need to be under $100/kwh - which Tesla is leading the way on, and they claim next year for a battery pack at this price, but for most manufacturers this is still a few years off at least. With batteries priced at this level, I think Tesla then need to concentrate on making their cars overall cheaper if they want to stay ahead of the game within 5 years or so as the giants will be nipping at their heels in the not too distant future.

Exciting times. 👍

I am guessing 5 to 10 yrs at least,in reality probably a lot longer.

But i think the big issue will be getting the reliable power to charge these EV's.

The inconvenience will be an issue for many,particularly with company vehicles that are loaded,pulling trailers,etc.

We only have to have a hot day here and often have power issues.

I can see it happening 'yes boss,the car battery didn't charge last night'.....

Solar,batteries,are not an option for many people,for whatever reason.

For private use,short trips, around town,for some,EV maybe the go,but for many it won't be the go.


Then there is always Gav's gensets.[tonguewink]

[scarry]

Makes total sense to me. With the rapid global uptake of new technologies and blatantly obvious climate change, it will be 5 years max that buying a new ICE vehicle will be almost impossible imo.

So no ICE vehicles in 5 yrs?

We will have to agree to disagree

The whole automotive business is going to be turned on its head and all the charging infrastructure,etc is going to be in place to charge millions of vehicles?

We better stock up,ICE vehicles are going to be worth big $$$$.

[Homestar]

Tesla is already moving to make smaller cheaper cars. They will flood the markets.
Companies, including Tesla and JLR, are building their own battery plants to bring down the costs.
You're right the current cost is higher, but early adopters will still pay it, while the rest of us wait.
As battery packs are built into new high selling models EV prices will fall. For example, imagine an EV i30 or Mazda 3. Toyota is already selling a hybrid Corolla for $31,870, which is only up $1500 on the regular Corolla.
Wait till Toyota releases a hybrid Hilux and Ford a hybrid Ranger and watch the buyers stampede to get them. Why wouldn't a trade buy a hybrid truck with a 3-400 km range that he can recharge at home for little cost, compared with spending $100 a week on diesel? It's a no-brainer and a tax deductible expense.
EVs are coming fast.

I know what I'd tell my Boss if he bought me a Hybrid then asked me to plug it in at home to charge it - it wouldn't be very nice. My work car lives on the street, nowhere near a power point so he'd be **** out of luck doing that with me sorry. I'm not paying to run a fully funded work car, nor store it somewhere where it could be charged even if they paid my whole power bill. There are plenty of infrastructure issues that still need to be sorted out.

[scarry]

I know what I'd tell my Boss if he bought me a Hybrid then asked me to plug it in at home to charge it - it wouldn't be very nice. My work car lives on the street, nowhere near a power point so he'd be **** out of luck doing that with me sorry. I'm not paying to run a fully funded work car, nor store it somewhere where it could be charged even if they paid my whole power bill. There are plenty of infrastructure issues that still need to be sorted out.

Exactly,there are millions of people with these types of issues,where EV's simply are a dream,and will be for many,many years.

The ICE will soldier on,with a few Ev's around for people that they suit.

And NO,many people are not going to suddenly adapt,and change,as some have said.

[goingbush]

Hilarious reading some of these posts, I'll save them & put into a time capsule to be opened in 5 years.

[DiscoMick]

Hybrids don't have to be plug ins, they can charge while driving.

[RANDLOVER]

I am guessing 5 to 10 yrs at least,in reality probably a lot longer.

But i think the big issue will be getting the reliable power to charge these EV's.

The inconvenience will be an issue for many,particularly with company vehicles that are loaded,pulling trailers,etc.

We only have to have a hot day here and often have power issues.

I can see it happening 'yes boss,the car battery didn't charge last night'.....

Solar,batteries,are not an option for many people,for whatever reason.

For private use,short trips, around town,for some,EV maybe the go,but for many it won't be the go.


Then there is always Gav's gensets.[tonguewink]

The whole fully EV thing sounds great until they run out of charge. I heard a story where a tow truck driver bought a Freelander 2 for approx $1500 because the replacement crank angle sensor failed, as can happen (bath/bell curves and all that). The owner was furious when it broke down along the road, and said they just wanted their money back from the last service and repair bill which the towie was prepared to offer.

I reckon the future business to be in, would be a a double cab tow truck with a generator to charge the car while you drive the passengers a few (hundred) miles towards their destination. With reverse eftpos facility so that one could buy the offending vehicles from the disillusioned owners.

I think manufacturers are mad to offer full EV cars that is just cutting their own throats, it has to be hybrid. Instead of rushing down the EV path they should start selling their current line up with, say 10-20 litre fuel tanks, that need to be re-fuelled via a 3mm hose and see how many they sell.

Even the hip, happening, younger generation, supposedly the target market of the new EV technology will not put up with the charging inconvenience, as they are used to instant gratification, with every thing available immediately, at their finger tips, on their smart phones.

[PhilipA]

IMHO the takeup of EVs will be dependent on how much subsidy the government offers or alternatively how much extra tax is levied on diesel and petrol.

The article I quoted earlier in the thread showed that in Toronto and the province EV sales have virtually stopped since removal of the subsidy.

California intends to have a subsidy equal to the difference in price between an EV and a similarly equipped ICE car so lots will be sold /given there.
Regarding Tesla, model 3 sales only just recently reached near their target and they are satisfying 2 or more years of pent up orders. I saw analyst reports that stated that the ONLY profit made by Tesla was from the USD13000 subsidy paid by the US federal government, and AFAIK a USD12000 payment per car by other car makers who have not sold the required number of EVS. The 13K cuts 50% out when 200,000 EVs (soon for Tesla) have been produced and goes to nothing in 2020.

You can be sure that all other car makers have done a finite element analysis on Tesla cars ( where they dismantle a car down to all its component parts and price each part to calculate a build price) , so why haven't they all introduced similar cars. Perhaps there is no money in it? GM is discontinuing the Volt( or is it Bolt?) .

I personally think that it will be a brave government in Australia who would upset millions of diesel/petrol owners by increasing tax. Subsidies? maybe. NSW already gives rego discounts to EVs but it is very small.

As an aside I had a look at Nissan Leaf ads in Carsales . There were 9 in total and one was a 2102 model first registered in 2015. ( that is BAD)They all were around 28K , which I think comes under the category of "tell em they're dreamin"
You would have to be dedicated to pay 28K for a Yaris equivalent at say 10-12 K.
Regards Philip A

.

[bee utey]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAS-yjWj9DY

[PhilipA]

A very interesting video, but I am sure that GM, Ford, BMW, Jaguar etc all have their own laboratories doing the same thing. Heck Ford Australia used to do it for Commodores etc. I have seen a dismantled Commodore in the Design Centre
I am not convinced that he would get unit prices from suppliers as this is usually contractually confidential information. I think he would estimate many of the prices.

And what level of Model 3 is he talking about? AFAIK the vast majority of Model 3s have been specced up to be retail at about USD80K. This will not go on once the backlog of enthusiast orders is filled. It usually takes about 6 months to satisfy early adopters , but it may last a year for Tesla seeing the backlog, but after the rich mix is gone , is it profitable at 30K?
But good on Tesla for being a leader in electronics. Of course they are doomed now that the CEO is from Telstra.

I am very impressed with the cars, it's just the business model of direct selling and preventing any outsiders from working on the products that I disagree with.
Regards Philip A

[DiscoMick]

I think hybrid sales will rise significantly, for example Toyota hybrids, and pure EVs will take longer, but it's only a matter of time.

[Jojo]

The whole fully EV thing sounds great until they run out of charge.
Well, an EV running out of charge is as miserable as an ICE vehicle running out of fuel, no better, no worse. I have been driving my Tesla for about 160.000kms and still have run out of charge at least once. It's just a matter of thinking ahead, as simple as that.
I'm not convinced that hybrids are a viable solution, they simply combine the disadvantages of both concepts. They may have their value in convincing previously indecisive people, after driving electric for some miles one only gets annoyed when the engine kicks in, so the next vehicle then will be all-electric powered.

To bore you with another statistic from Norway, the list of the most sold vehicles last year
147614
Nissan Leaf leads by a fair margin, followed by VW Golf and BMW i3. If you then consider that the vast majority of the Golfs are e-Golf (7238 of 9859), the first three places are occupied by EVs. Place 4 Tesla Model X, on 5th the first hybrid (Mitsubishi Outlander). Places 6,7 and 9 are ICE vehicles, whilst Tesla Model S and Renault Zoe come 8 and 10. If you wish, you can see the whole report here:
Norwegian OFV-Report (http://www.ofv.no/getfile.php/136658-1546589600/Dokumenter/OFV%20Frokostmøter/Bilåret%202018%20-OFV.pdf)

In a few years time, ICE will be history. In some places sooner, in others somewhat later. Most likely this won't be to the late-adopter's advantage.

Of course they are doomed now that the CEO is from Telstra.
[bigsmile][bigrolf]

[manic]

Hilarious reading some of these posts, I'll save them & put into a time capsule to be opened in 5 years.Ok so come 2024, what do you hope to confirm? Evs outselling ICE for new car sales? Maybe!?

You might get that 'I told you so' moment in 2024.... but I wouldnt bank on it. Change can be infuriatingly slow.

EVs are here, mass uptake is likely, but ICE will still have the majority on the road in 5 years time, and by a good margin.

Im looking forward to getting into EVs in the 2020s. Its just a shame its taken so long to get here.

[manic]

In a few years time, ICE will be history. In some places sooner, in others somewhat later. Most likely this won't be to the late-adopter's advantage.

[bigsmile][bigrolf]

What is a few years in infinite time? Id say a couple of decades at least. Theres alot of ICE getting about on this planet. Even here in Australia you would need hard core goverment intervention to move ICE off the road any time soon.

Im not sure what you mean by early adopters advantage?

[Jojo]

Of course there will be plenty of ICE vehicles still on the roads, but hardly any new ones will be sold and the aftermarket value will plummet.Except maybe for some enthusiast or special purpose vehicles. That's what happens in Norway right now. The 'late adopters' simply will by then not be able to sell their vehicle for decent money.

[manic]

Of course there will be plenty of ICE vehicles still on the roads, but hardly any new ones will be sold and the aftermarket value will plummet.Except maybe for some enthusiast or special purpose vehicles. That's what happens in Norway right now. The 'late adopters' simply will by then not be able to sell their vehicle for decent money.Fair point - if you are buying expensive ICE cars and banking on resale value.

I wonder what a 2017 Tesla model X that cost ~ $200,000 new will be worth in 2024.

[Jojo]

Fair point - if you are buying expensive ICE cars and banking on resale value.

I wonder what a 2017 Tesla model X that cost ~ $200,000 new will be worth in 2024.

Difficult to estimate, but as long demand for those vehicles exceeds availability you will probably get a fair deal. I recently got a trade-in estimate from Tesla for my car (4yrs, about 160K kms) of over 50% of the original purchase price, which I consider is in the lower end as selling it privately will return an even better value.

[scarry]

Of course there will be plenty of ICE vehicles still on the roads, but hardly any new ones will be sold and the aftermarket value will plummet.Except maybe for some enthusiast or special purpose vehicles. That's what happens in Norway right now. The 'late adopters' simply will by then not be able to sell their vehicle for decent money.

Your comparing a country like Norway to Aus?

I wonder if their top selling vehicles are diesel dual cab utes?

As i have said before,EV will suit some,but many will stay with ICE,that is if they are available,and they will be.

EV won't suit everyone,one of the main issues is providing the infrastructure to charge them all.

There is basically no infrastructure to charge millions of vehicles ATM,and its not going to suddenly appear overnight.

[goingbush]

As i have said before,EV will suit some,but many will stay with ICE,that is if they are available,and they will be.
And who is going to be making these niche ICE vehicles , there is no market for them, no resale value , so no one will buy them & no one will make them , its a vicious circle.



EV won't suit everyone,
obviously


one of the main issues is providing the infrastructure to charge them all.

There is basically no infrastructure to charge millions of vehicles ATM,and its not going to suddenly appear overnight.
The infrastructure is already here, FFS , you plug your car in at night to a powerpoint. Every house has one .

[PhilipA]

How come none of you "fan boys" have bought a Nissan Leaf.
They have been available for at least 6 years.
Come on, put your money where your mouth is, pay 28K for a useless car or you can buy a new 2019 model with a 250Km range for about 50K-60 K.

Regards Philip A
or is it that the idea of EVs is great "in principle" but not so attractive "in practice"
BTW Norway has extensive subsidies for purchase of EVs.
What’s put the spark in Norway’s electric car revolution? | Money | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jul/02/norway-electric-cars-subsidies-fossil-fuel)

[DiscoMick]

Financially, right now a $32 k Toyota Corolla hybrid makes more sense than a $50k Nissan Leaf, which is why I think hybrid sales will be the first wave of EVs.
But that will change as battery pack costs fall and people realise a hybrid is a compromise and it's better to just go full EV.
Range anxiety will decline as manufacturers install larger, more efficient battery packs and double the current typical 300 km affordable EV range, which has already happened with the Teslas and Jaguar I Pace.
When an affordable EV has a range matching an ICE vehicle, such as the 600km range of our Mazda 2, and more highway servos install charging points, then pure EVs will surge in sales, I think.

[bee utey]

How come none of you "fan boys" have bought a Nissan Leaf.


Probably due to their not having the rugged manly appeal of a shed class Land Rover, and, oh, perhaps no low range 4WD transfer case either. Goingbush has showed the way for LR's new sales direction.

Oh and what's a "fan boy"? Sounds kinky. Do they come as accessories for middle eastern delivered Range Rovers? Asking for a friend.

[scarry]

And who is going to be making these niche ICE vehicles , there is no market for them, no resale value , so no one will buy them & no one will make them , its a vicious circle.


obviously


The infrastructure is already here, FFS , you plug your car in at night to a powerpoint. Every house has one .


FFS,if you think the infrastructure is already in place,your really showing your ignorance.These vehicles aren't just a portable appliance,like toaster or a vacuum cleaner,that can be plugged into a power point,and use a small amount of power for a few minutes.

They use a huge amount of power,and there will be millions of them,supposedly.

EDIT have a look at this,on an Australian site,

"Simply insert the J1772 nozzle in one end the and the other in your Tesla and you will be able to charge at up to 7.6kw or 30-40 kms of range per hour. Beauty!"

That equates to around 31 amps/hour,which is a huge amount of power.

And the infrastructure is in place for this sort of power usage?

Just imagine a block of say 300 or so units,where half the units have one car each that needs charging overnight?

The average household in Aus has two vehicles,many have three.

So even the average domestic house mains may struggle.

[JDNSW]

Financially, right now a $32 k Toyota Corolla hybrid makes more sense than a $50k Nissan Leaf, which is why I think hybrid sales will be the first wave of EVs.
But that will change as battery pack costs fall and people realise a hybrid is a compromise and it's better to just go full EV.
Range anxiety will decline as manufacturers install larger, more efficient battery packs and double the current typical 300 km affordable EV range, which has already happened with the Teslas and Jaguar I Pace.
When an affordable EV has a range matching an ICE vehicle, such as the 600km range of our Mazda 2, and more highway servos install charging points, then pure EVs will surge in sales, I think.

Is there such a thing as an affordable EV at present?

I am trying to talk my son into replacing his I30 with one, but it is a bit hard to push when they are so much more expensive than a comparable ICE car. Primarily used for commuting he does a typical 150-180km a day, but wants to be able to, for example, deliver his kids to me, meeting at Molong, which for him means a round trip of about 400km done with only a five minute stop. And I don't think there are any fast chargers on the Lachlan Valley way. Or on the Mitchell highway for that matter. (He really does not need to do this trip in his commuting car though, as he has access to his daughters D2.)

I haven't even mentioned the possibility of his replacing his wife's car with an EV, which is only used for driving round town, obviously an ideal task for an EV. But the existing car is a second hand Getz - and I haven't seen any EVs close to the $2,000 he paid for it.

[Zeros]

Every servo / roadhouse in the country will have a bank of rapid EV chargers by 2024.

Hybrids will sell well for 5 years as the changeover occurs, but by 2025 the growth in EV demand will outstrip Hybrid / ICE vehicles.

Prices will come into line. Inflation in wealthy countries like Australia and government subsidies to quell climate fears will see to that. Rapid new technology adoption is now a blind assumption. 5 years is a long time in this field. The biggest risk to the EV market over the next 5 years is rapid redundancy. This is why Hybrids will be the go to for a while. But the manufacturers that build in processor upgradability will become the leaders.

By the way, Teslas are luxury vehicles. When the big car companies launch the vehicles they are developing now, Tesla will remain a luxury niche. Land Rover are positioned for the luxury niche too. Most Land Rovers are no longer affordable for the general market. They are luxury items. But the rapid advancement of EV tech is the reason for the delay in launching the new Defender IMO. It needed to be capable of becoming an EV within 5 years, so they put it on hold. Way back in 2015 this was not even part of the equation.

Disco 5 was ready to go and they needed the shape change to make way for Defender (D4) clone. Disco 6 will be an EV and Defender will be available as a Hybrid / EV. This is just the tip of the rapid EV development iceberg (pardon the pun).

ICE will continue to be strong in the second hand market for 10 years, but after that they will become collectors items unsuitable as daily drivers for the majority. There is no way I would buy a new ICE vehicle now.

[JDNSW]

It will be interesting to revisit this thread in five years!

[Arapiles]

So, I was in Japan over Christmas/New Year and I called into Nissan's flagship showroom in Ginza (which apparently, they now call "Nissan Crossing"). They always have new or concept vehicles here. This time it was a GTR, a GTR concept and relevantly to this thread, two electric race cars: a Nismo Leaf and a Formula E race car. They also had car seats hung on a robotic arm and VR goggles you could experience a fast lap in a Nismo Leaf. I also picked up some brochures on the e-Note and e-Serena.

NISSAN:NISSAN CROSSING (https://www3.nissan.co.jp/crossing/en.html)

Nissan unleashes all-new LEAF NISMO RC electric race car - Global Newsroom (https://newsroom.nissan-global.com/releases/release-860852d7040eed420ffbaebb2243a330-nissan-unleashes-all-new-leaf-nismo-rc-electric-race-car?lang=en-US)

If you're in Tokyo it's worth checking out.

Nissan's current electric vehicle line-up:

NISSAN JAPAN (https://www3.nissan.co.jp/en.html)

The e-Powers are a type of hybrid, with a small battery and an ICE but the ICE only charges the battery - like a permanent range-extender. But they claim that it's much more economical than running an ICE alone. Sadly, since they don't even sell the Y62 Patrol in Japan, I doubt it will ever make its way into a off-road capable 4WD.

From an EV point of view it demonstrates that Nissan is putting money into EVs. It's also worth remembering that Prius was, apparently, for big chunks of the last few years, the best selling car in Japan (it's currently second) and that Nissan also sell a lot of Leafs.

Nissan LEAF Sales Up 1,292% In Japan In September 2018 (https://insideevs.com/nissan-leaf-sales-japan-september-2018)

147623147624147625

[Arapiles]

[/COLOR]

FFS,if you think the infrastructure is already in place,your really showing your ignorance.These vehicles aren't just a portable appliance,like toaster or a vacuum cleaner,that can be plugged into a power point,and use a small amount of power for a few minutes. They use a huge amount of power,and there will be millions of them,supposedly.

This concern is apparently a furphy - the draw per house would be no more than running an air conditioner, and our systems have been coping with that for the last week or two.

Also, as as example, this is how they do it in Japan - although this website is in Japanese, I think that it's easy enough to follow what's happening?

スマートハウス｜住宅・ハウスメーカーのトヨタホーム (http://www.toyotahome.co.jp/smarthouse/)

You buy a factory-built home from Toyota. Yes, they also build homes. In factories. Your home has a roof covered in high capacity solar panels (about 10kw/h in the house pictured).

シンセ・グレートソーラー平屋｜住宅・ハウスメーカーのトヨタホーム (http://www.toyotahome.co.jp/kw/hiraya/)

Inside the house there is battery storage and management system ("HEMS"). It also has co-generation heat pumps. When you come home in your car you plug your car into a high speed charger already installed as part of the home build. It runs off your solar or the mains. When the power goes off you run the house off the batteries and the car. Simples.

All of this stuff is doable now on any home - if I put a battery on my house and a charger I'd already be there.

[scarry]

This concern is apparently a furphy - the draw per house would be no more than running an air conditioner, and our systems have been coping with that for the last week or two.

Also, as as example, this is how they do it in Japan - although this website is in Japanese, I think that it's easy enough to follow what's happening?

スマートハウス｜住宅・ハウスメーカーのトヨタホーム (http://www.toyotahome.co.jp/smarthouse/)

You buy a factory-built home from Toyota. Yes, they also build homes. In factories. Your home has a roof covered in high capacity solar panels (about 10kw/h in the house pictured).

シンセ・グレートソーラー平屋｜住宅・ハウスメーカーのトヨタホーム (http://www.toyotahome.co.jp/kw/hiraya/)

Inside the house there is battery storage and management system ("HEMS"). It also has co-generation heat pumps. When you come home in your car you plug your car into a high speed charger already installed as part of the home build. It runs off your solar or the mains. When the power goes off you run the house off the batteries and the car. Simples.

All of this stuff is doable now on any home - if I put a battery on my house and a charger I'd already be there.

Mate,anyone could do this,could do that,yes they do this somewhere,Bla,Bla.

Where are the actual current draws that the Ev's take to charge?

Same as an AC is a load of garbage,what size ac,what type?

[goingbush]

[/COLOR]

FFS,if you think the infrastructure is already in place,your really showing your ignorance.These vehicles aren't just a portable appliance,like toaster or a vacuum cleaner,that can be plugged into a power point,and use a small amount of power for a few minutes.

They use a huge amount of power,and there will be millions of them,supposedly.

EDIT have a look at this,on an Australian site,

"Simply insert the J1772 nozzle in one end the and the other in your Tesla and you will be able to charge at up to 7.6kw or 30-40 kms of range per hour. Beauty!"

That equates to around 31 amps/hour,which is a huge amount of power.

And the infrastructure is in place for this sort of power usage?

Just imagine a block of say 300 or so units,where half the units have one car each that needs charging overnight?

The average household in Aus has two vehicles,many have three.

So even the average domestic house mains may struggle.


Paul, you are gobbling up the anti EV propaganda as fact. So much BS out there.

My 5Kw PV array provides enough power for my house , plus all the power my Electric Car needs, plus around $250 in FIT credit.

I have a DIY LandRover conversion and it has a "J1772 Nozzle" Teslas do not. I did 5500km last year @ 28kwh per 100km = yearly consumption of 1540kwh . From Jan '18 to Jan '19 (FYI 28kwh /100km for a 1500kg vehicle is not very efficient , A 2500kg Tesla uses about 22kwh per 100km.) My E-Landy has a 3.3kw charger & plugs into a 15A point, draws 13.5 Amps .


5kw PV array produced 6387kw for the last 4 quarters .
After EV charging left 4947kw. 4560kwh household use & $0.71 FIT = $274 credit .

So I put more back into the network than what I used.

You talk about those 300 people you referred to in a hypothetical housing block, I don't believe that is a typical Australian situation, is more like China and they have no problems dealing with such demand. Typically accomodation like that is not for commuters more like public transport to work. Cruise around China in Google Earth and you will easily find solar farms like this Google Maps (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9750427,113.4485402,1241m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en-GB)


Anyway bottom line its about choices, your choice is to continue buy petrol , I'm fine with that . I also have a petrol car and a Diesel 4x4 , but they only get used when I have to drive a round trip more than 80km. neither of them have been driven more that 350km on any single day , and then only 3 occasions in the last 12 months. ( Any modern EV can cope with that )

Typically I do about 25km a day in my E-Landy and charge once every 2 or 3 days . 10 million people doing the same as me are not going to put a burden on the Electrical Grid , How many people will be doing an Interstate run every day , 1000 ?? 5000 ?? who knows but I'm pretty sure the grid can cope with them . Moreso , especially now that theres no Automotive Industry and bugger all Manufacturing of any type in Australia , the grid used to cope with that load.

[martnH]

Let's not predict the future. No one will know exactly when where and what

I think we all agree there will be more EVs coming into the market.
And also oil producers are scared ****less.
Just imagine how Saudi Arabia feels about a future with EVs everywhere Hahaha Muhahaha

Also if we can dig oil from an Islamic country in middle East for example and ship this liquid, decomposed Dino corpses that is, all the way across the globe, over the oceans to our servos and then into the fuel tank by our hands.

Yes some liquid all the way from middle East to here and into our fuel tank. If you think about it.
Don't you think it will be easier and cheaper to "ship" electricity around?

Cheeers

[DiscoMick]

How come none of you "fan boys" have bought a Nissan Leaf.
They have been available for at least 6 years.
Come on, put your money where your mouth is, pay 28K for a useless car or you can buy a new 2019 model with a 250Km range for about 50K-60 K.

Regards Philip A
or is it that the idea of EVs is great "in principle" but not so attractive "in practice"
BTW Norway has extensive subsidies for purchase of EVs.
What’s put the spark in Norway’s electric car revolution? | Money | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jul/02/norway-electric-cars-subsidies-fossil-fuel)You can't actually buy a new Nissan Leaf in Australia at the moment as the old model has stopped and the new model goes on sale in June.
When you buy a new EV you also get a charging point, usually 15amp but larger are available, to be installed in your house, so there are no charging difficulties.
If you already have a battery bank charged by solar, the Leaf's battery bank just is combined with the house's battery bank when connected.
For example, a house's 7 kw battery bank plus a Leaf's 40 kw battery bank gives a total of 47 kw, charged by solar, so basically the power is free.
The power can flow both ways so there may be times, such as late at night if the house's batteries have run low, when the Leaf's battery bank is powering the house.
This isn't theoretical, people are already doing it.

[DiscoMick]

Tesla is planning to build a new vehicle known as Model Y, which will be a crossover with a hatch, similar to the Model S, costing slightly more.
Production will start in Tesla's Shanghai factory, alongside the S, with the aim being for that factory to build 500,000 vehicles a year, all for sale in China, which avoids Trump's trade war with China.
Tesla's USA factory is flat out building the S and Tesla has yet to announce where it will build the Y in the US.
So you can see why other vehicle manufacturer's see Tesla as such a threat.
The Tesla Model Y will be unveiled this year — here are the latest updates - MarketWatch (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-tesla-model-y-will-be-unveiled-this-year-here-are-the-latest-updates-2019-01-03?utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_3657880)

[PhilipA]

You can't actually buy a new Nissan Leaf in Australia at the moment as the old model has stopped and the new model goes on sale in June.

You could order one now. Do you currently have a second runabout? Go on you know you want to.

I was also interested to note that 70% of Norwegians with EVs also own an ICE car.

It seems even they are hedging their bets even though the subsidies for EVs are really enormous making them cheaper to buy and operate than an ICE car. Who wouldn't take advantage? I then wondered if Norway was getting some special deal from the makers of the EVs or whether they were just handing Norwegian taxes to the EV makers.

I read somewhere a while ago that Tesla Model S are most commonly a fifth family car in the USA.

This to me anyway suggests that reports of ICE 's death are rather premature.
Regards Philip A

[Arapiles]

Mate,anyone could do this,could do that,yes they do this somewhere,Bla,Bla.

Where are the actual current draws that the Ev's take to charge?

Same as an AC is a load of garbage,what size ac,what type?

Actually, someone actually posted an answer to your question earlier in this thread, but here it is again:




" #6 – The electricity grid cannot handle the load of all electric cars!
During normal charging at nighttime, an electric car does not use a lot of electricity.
http://teslaclubsweden.se/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/tesla_2kW.jpg
Origin of the myth: People have fuzzy ideas about how much current an electric car draws. Many thinks that the need for installing a special home charger is because electric cars draw too much current while being charged. That might be true in the US with their 110V outlets, but not here in Europe with our 230V ones.
Why the myth is incorrect: While charging electric cars draw about the same current as comparable household appliances.
If you have driven 100 kilometers during a day, your electric car will have consumed about 20kWh of electricity. It is these 20 kWh you need to recharge back into its batteries at night. If you charge your car from 21:00 to 07:00 the next morning you have 10 hours to recharge 20kWh – that equals to 2kW of effect. That is the same effect and current an electric radiator (http://www.bauhaus.se/konvektorelement-2000w.html) uses.
Also, an average house uses 2500 kWh less energy this year than it did in the ’90s (http://teslaclubsweden.se/varifran-ska-vi-fa-all-el-till-elbilen-fran/). All those energy efficient kitchenware you have bought since then saves as much electricity combined as an electric car uses. If you buy an electric car your household will consume as much electricity again as it did in the 90’s. The power grid managed it then, and it will manage it now as well. "

[Arapiles]

It’s only just begun....and it will happen faster than we can imagine.

RIVIAN

Rivian (https://products.rivian.com/)

SUV – Rivian (https://products.rivian.com/suv/)

BOLLINGER

Bollinger Motors | Bollinger Motors (https://www.bollingermotors.com/)

...Inc, time for a new EV section in both LR and non LR vehicles sections?


Ford will build them too:

Ford Says An Electric F-150 Is Coming | CleanTechnica (https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/17/ford-says-an-electric-f-150-is-coming/)

[Jojo]

Your comparing a country like Norway to Aus?

I wonder if their top selling vehicles are diesel dual cab utes?

As i have said before,EV will suit some,but many will stay with ICE,that is if they are available,and they will be.

EV won't suit everyone,one of the main issues is providing the infrastructure to charge them all.

There is basically no infrastructure to charge millions of vehicles ATM,and its not going to suddenly appear overnight.

Of course there are some differences between Norway and Australia, but when it comes to cars, I can assure you that utes (or their more modern variety, the 'SUV'), are very popular even in Scandinavia. Or have been, until the governments decided to 'tax them off the road', so to speak. In Australia, in the inner city districts and 'burbs, utes are decidedly less common than in rural areas. The same applies to our regions here.
If you are concerned about the non-availability of this type of vehicle with an all-electric drive train, this is only a matter of time. Check out threads about the 'Rivian' elsewhere on this forum. There are other vehicles following suit and I would be surprised if Land Rover themselves would not come up with one soon. Tesla have their own 'pick-up truck' in the pipeline, rumours have been going on for a while. Expect it to turn up somewhen after Model Y is in production.

As for the infrastructure, it's already there! Any power outlet will do! I am sure most of you will have access to a socket on their premises. A standard socket in the wall will suffice for your usual driving needs, if you are not a long distance driver, in which case a three-phase will make sense. Usually, this should not be too difficult to install. Fast charging stations will only be needed for long distance driving and are popping upp almost everywhere here in Europe. If you take a look at Tesla's website and are checking out their ever expanding Supercharger network you may get an idea. Other actors are on the market as well. You in Australia even have two definite advantages: space and sunshine. With some solar panels set up in the outback, charging stations even in remote locations will be feasible. Not more complicated than that.

I bought my Tesla 4 years ago, not because I was sold on an EV, only because it made most sense economically. I was as sceptical as you are now and did not believe at all in the concept. Looking for the catch each and everywhere, I have not found it yet. After about one year I was convinced and now I am not looking back at all. My next vehicle will be an EV again. Of course I will stick to my trusty Land Rovers as long as it is legally and economically possible, but in case one of the engines or gear boxes fails I definitely will consider an EV conversion. As all engines are in good nick, it may take a while, though.

I suggest you are reading this article as many of your doubts and questions will get busted:
EV-myths BUSTED! (http://teslaclubsweden.se/myths/)

[scarry]

Actually, someone actually posted an answer to your question earlier in this thread, but here it is again:




" #6 – The electricity grid cannot handle the load of all electric cars!
During normal charging at nighttime, an electric car does not use a lot of electricity.
http://teslaclubsweden.se/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/tesla_2kW.jpg
Origin of the myth: People have fuzzy ideas about how much current an electric car draws. Many thinks that the need for installing a special home charger is because electric cars draw too much current while being charged. That might be true in the US with their 110V outlets, but not here in Europe with our 230V ones.
Why the myth is incorrect: While charging electric cars draw about the same current as comparable household appliances.
If you have driven 100 kilometers during a day, your electric car will have consumed about 20kWh of electricity. It is these 20 kWh you need to recharge back into its batteries at night. If you charge your car from 21:00 to 07:00 the next morning you have 10 hours to recharge 20kWh – that equals to 2kW of effect. That is the same effect and current an electric radiator (http://www.bauhaus.se/konvektorelement-2000w.html) uses.
Also, an average house uses 2500 kWh less energy this year than it did in the ’90s (http://teslaclubsweden.se/varifran-ska-vi-fa-all-el-till-elbilen-fran/). All those energy efficient kitchenware you have bought since then saves as much electricity combined as an electric car uses. If you buy an electric car your household will consume as much electricity again as it did in the 90’s. The power grid managed it then, and it will manage it now as well. "

More European figures,not relevant to Aus.
In Australia,the introduction of AC units to nearly every home in the last 20yrs wouldn't have helped reduce power consumption,i wouldn't have thought,particularly in northern regions.

[PhilipA]

This article says roughly what I have posted.










https://i1.wp.com/pixel.tcog.cp1.news.com.au/track/spp-api/v1/template/?path=components.primary-navigation&t_product=the-australianTesla workforce cuts ‘to make cars cheaper’
https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/e50db1b5672ab14ab8064ac478c03cfa?width=650 (https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/e50db1b5672ab14ab8064ac478c03cfa)Tesla electric cars are charged at a Tesla Supercharger station in London.



By Tim Higgins
An hour ago January 19, 2019
10 Comments (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/#story-comments)

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Tesla plans to eliminate 7% of its full-time workforce, the auto maker’s second round of job cuts in a year as it tries to maintain profitability while lowering the price of its Model 3 sedan.

The maker of electric vehicles has been jacking up production of the Model 3 while chasing its long-held dream of selling it at $US35,000 ($AU48,000) to make it a mainstream sedan. Chief Executive Elon Musk, in a memo early Friday reviewed by The Wall Street Journal, told employees preliminary results show Tesla made a profit in the final three months, albeit a smaller one than in the third quarter.
This quarter, Tesla hopefully can achieve “a tiny profit,” he said, but it will entail “great difficulty, effort and some luck.” The memo was later posted to Tesla’s website.

Shares of the Palo Alto, Calif., company sank about 13% in Friday trading following the announcement.
Mr. Musk said Tesla is contending with the phasing-out of U.S. federal tax credit for buyers of its electric vehicles, which is increasing pressure on the company to lower prices. That credit had been worth $7,500 last year, and was cut in half to $3,750 on Jan 1.
Under federal law, the tax credits are available for the first 200,000 vehicles sold in the U.S. by an auto maker, a threshold Tesla reached during last year. The credit is then reduced by 50% every six months until it is phased out.
“The need for a lower priced variants of Model 3 becomes even greater on July 1, when the U.S. tax credit again drops in half, making our car $1,875 more expensive, and again at the end of the year when it goes away entirely,” Mr. Musk said in the memo.
The compact sedan is Mr. Musk’s bet Tesla can evolve from a niche luxury player into an auto maker offering a more affordable car to mainstream buyers.
That effort, however, has been hampered by Tesla’s inability to offer the car at the long-promised price of $35,000. The least-expensive version starts at $44,000, after Tesla lowered prices of all of its vehicles by $2,000 in early January.
The average U.S. price paid for a new vehicle was about $32,500 last year, up from $29,300 five years ago, according to J.D. Power.
The layoffs will affect about 3,200 of the 45,000 workers Tesla says it has. Mr. Musk said Friday the full-time employees head count grew by 30% last year, “which is more than we can support.”
The layoffs follow a workforce reduction of 9% in June last year during a make-or-break period as Tesla tried to increase production of the Model 3 after months of delays.
Tesla is cutting jobs even as it plans to increase Model 3 production further in coming months, Mr. Musk said in the memo. He cautioned “the road ahead is very difficult.”
“Higher volume and manufacturing design improvements are crucial for Tesla to achieve the economies of scale required to manufacture” the base $35,000 Model 3 “and still be a viable company,” he said. “There isn’t any other way.”
Tesla’s production struggles last year focused attention on its limited cash balance and Mr. Musk’s desire to avoid issuing new shares or taking on additional debt. The third quarter’s strong results and improved cash totaling $3 billion helped relieve some of that pressure. Mr. Musk reiterated in October his desire not raise additional cash, telling analysts the company planned to pay off its debt without having to refinance.
https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/e93d2987cf836d580a84bd708070a415?width=650 (https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/e93d2987cf836d580a84bd708070a415)Tesla CEO Elon Musk.
Cash could return to the spotlight with a $920 million convertible bond due on March 1. For the conversion to equity to occur, Tesla’s average share price needs to be at $359.87 or higher for 20 consecutive trading days. Friday’s closing price was $302.26.
In October, Tesla reported a record third-quarter profit of $311.5 million, surprising analysts and giving new confidence to investors who had weathered a turbulent year. Wall Street had expected a loss.
In his memo—sent at 1:20 a.m. in California, where the company is based—Mr. Musk said the profit was partly due to the sale of higher-priced versions of the Model 3 in North America. Analysts surveyed by FactSet estimated the average selling price during the period at $59,000 for the small car, which competes against the BMW 3 Series and Mercedes-Benz C-Class.
Tesla aims to begin delivering the Model 3 in Europe and Asia this quarter. Similar to how it began sales in the U.S., Tesla plans to start with a higher-priced version in those markets.
Analysts surveyed by FactSet on average before Friday’s announcement had predicted that Tesla’s profit in the fourth quarter would fall to $1.39 a share from $1.75 in the third quarter.
Tesla’s earnings could face pressure later in the year, when the company introduces the lower-priced Model 3 in those foreign markets and the U.S. tax credit disappears.
The challenge of manufacturing the Model 3, which began production in July 2017, has weighed on Tesla and its CEO. Mr. Musk surprised investors in August by announcing on Twitter he was considering taking Tesla private and had secured funding for such a deal. Shares at the time soared before falling days later as it became clear Mr. Musk didn’t have a deal finalized.
U.S. securities regulators accused him of misleading investors and sought to bar him from serving as a director or officer of any publicly traded company. He settled with the Securities and Exchange Commission in a deal that allowed him to remain CEO but relinquish his chairman role for three years. Tesla was also required to add two additional independent board members.
- Wall Street Journal











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[goingbush]

GM USA recently stopped producing ICE & hybrid cars, announcing that they are concentrating on the truck market. In reality they stopped producing ICE cars to transition to 100% Electric .

And now Electric 'pickups' too

GM CEO Mary Barra says 'stay tuned' about something to compete with Tesla Pickup truck - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2019/01/18/gm-electric-tesla-pickup-truck/?fbclid=IwAR2CYWqhzWZ-M6JtGvBJvNjwPhDLTd-y7R5AS6KdKE_ReN72ZBaFy3J823g)

[Arapiles]

More European figures,not relevant to Aus.
In Australia,the introduction of AC units to nearly every home in the last 20yrs wouldn't have helped reduce power consumption,i wouldn't have thought,particularly in northern regions.

I'd suggest that 2kwh is the same amount of electricity everywhere in the world.

Our electrical networks are coping with the current demands, whether they're higher or lower than they used to be they. If they weren't then we'd be continually in blackouts or brownouts and we're not. Our systems will cope with EVs.

[DiscoMick]

And the rapid growth of solar is boosting electricity production. Add batteries to home solar and the EV can be charged at home without drawing on the grid at all.

[scarry]

And the rapid growth of solar is boosting electricity production. Add batteries to home solar and the EV can be charged at home without drawing on the grid at all.

Correct,but thats a very general assumption,there are a lot of variables.

[scarry]

Paul, you are gobbling up the anti EV propaganda as fact. So much BS out there.

My 5Kw PV array provides enough power for my house , plus all the power my Electric Car needs, plus around $250 in FIT credit.

I have a DIY LandRover conversion and it has a "J1772 Nozzle" Teslas do not. I did 5500km last year @ 28kwh per 100km = yearly consumption of 1540kwh . From Jan '18 to Jan '19 (FYI 28kwh /100km for a 1500kg vehicle is not very efficient , A 2500kg Tesla uses about 22kwh per 100km.) My E-Landy has a 3.3kw charger & plugs into a 15A point, draws 13.5 Amps .


5kw PV array produced 6387kw for the last 4 quarters .
After EV charging left 4947kw. 4560kwh household use & $0.71 FIT = $274 credit .

So I put more back into the network than what I used.

You talk about those 300 people you referred to in a hypothetical housing block, I don't believe that is a typical Australian situation, is more like China and they have no problems dealing with such demand. Typically accomodation like that is not for commuters more like public transport to work. Cruise around China in Google Earth and you will easily find solar farms like this Google Maps (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9750427,113.4485402,1241m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en-GB)


Anyway bottom line its about choices, your choice is to continue buy petrol , I'm fine with that . I also have a petrol car and a Diesel 4x4 , but they only get used when I have to drive a round trip more than 80km. neither of them have been driven more that 350km on any single day , and then only 3 occasions in the last 12 months. ( Any modern EV can cope with that )

Typically I do about 25km a day in my E-Landy and charge once every 2 or 3 days . 10 million people doing the same as me are not going to put a burden on the Electrical Grid , How many people will be doing an Interstate run every day , 1000 ?? 5000 ?? who knows but I'm pretty sure the grid can cope with them . Moreso , especially now that theres no Automotive Industry and bugger all Manufacturing of any type in Australia , the grid used to cope with that load.

Good to hear from someone with real life experience,in Aus.
A lot of the for and against EV stuff is overseas,and not really relevant,vague,and inaccurate.

Looking at your figures,and in Tesla data,13.5 amps is around the same,Tesla say for 6 to 7 hours to charge,but don't list from what SOC.
Thats more than a 9Kw late model inverter wall split system AC unit,running flat out.
And the charger will run constantly,where the Ac will normally ramp up and down,or even cycle at times.

So a substantial amount of power,particularly if two EV's were to be charged,which could easily happen in a normal household.

Your K's are also reasonably low,many households would do a lot more,particularly work vehicles,that would still need charging at home.

As for the grid coping with the load,in Qld,every summer,up until the last three yrs,we continually had power issues during periods of hot weather due to the power load from AC units.Unless something drastically changes,maybe this could happen again due to charging EV's,which is why i was mentioning infrastructure.And Ev's will need charging every day,all year around,not just in hot weather.
Sure,manufacturing has dropped off,although there wasn't too much here,in Qld,but our population has had massive growth.
Then as others have said there is the impact of solar,and also people being more power usage conscious.

As for blocks of units,they are popping up everywhere here,not just innercity,but also in outer suburbs,where people need cars to get around.Charging Ev's in these existing complexes will definitely need mains power upgrades,which is again infrastructure.

Solar and batteries will work for some,at home,but many don't have it for whatever reason.

EV's will definitely suit some,but for many,in their current form, they just won't suit,for numerous reasons.
ICE will be around for a long time yet,and will definitely be available new for many years to come.
As EV technology gets better,they will definitely get more popular,but who knows what will happen in years to come.

Hopefully ICE R&D will be ongoing and doesn't drop off completely, due to the huge investment auto companies are now doing on EV's.

[vnx205]

Your K's are also reasonably low,many households would do a lot more,particularly work vehicles,that would still need charging at home.

That would be balanced to some extent by the fact that a lot of EVs are more aerodynamic than a LR and would not need as much energy to cover the same distance.
Direct comparisons are difficult because there are so many variables.

[Zeros]

Why would ICE continue? It’s dirty, noisy less powerful and probably less reliable.
It will be a sad day when the purr of a good Diesel engine is replaced with the silence of EVs for good. But not all that sad. Silence is golden in this world.

[goingbush]

Worth watching . wonder if we will be getting an Electric Statesman


https://youtu.be/yKM6QJRwy3g

[goingbush]

Why would ICE continue? It’s dirty, noisy less powerful and probably less reliable.
It will be a sad day when the purr of a good Diesel engine is replaced with the silence of EVs for good. But not all that sad. Silence is golden in this world.

Not so sad. When I drive down the main street in silence (canvas roof) I can hear quiet petrol engines behind me and I can hear a diesel about 3 cars behind , no idea the world was so noisy . I used to be a petrol head but Diesels and loud V8's have quickly becoming an offensive sound to me.

[grey_ghost]

Come on guys, you can’t beat the sound of a lovely V8... I will buy an EV when I can do a trip of 1,000km between charges, and I can charge the vehicle in 10 minutes. Until then an EV ain’t for the little black duck... [emoji1303][emoji6]

[goingbush]

<snip>

Hopefully ICE R&D will be ongoing and doesn't drop off completely, due to the huge investment auto companies are now doing on EV's.

Probably not for passenger car use.

Any existing Internal combustion engine could be modified to run on Hydrogen for zero emissions, but no point Hydrogen Fuel Cell is so much more efficient and reliable . And battery electric is simple and much more efficient than ICE could ever hope to be. There are upcoming worldwide bans on Diesel so I cant see any R&D investment there.

[goingbush]

Come on guys, you can’t beat the sound of a lovely V8... I will buy an EV when I can do a trip of 1,000km between charges, and I can charge the vehicle in 10 minutes. Until then an EV ain’t for the little black duck... [emoji1303][emoji6]

So you will be buying one in about 5 years then :)

I added this sound chip to my E-Landy about 6 months ago when they were talking about legislating a noise to warn pedestrians but I haven't actually used it except as a joke.


https://youtu.be/eVh6W_PqkJo

[grey_ghost]

Love it! (The sound track and the Lightweight)

And yes - in the future I will very likely buy an EV.

In my eyes - it’s only a matter of time. How long? I have no idea.

[Zeros]

Not so sad. When I drive down the main street in silence (canvas roof) I can hear quiet petrol engines behind me and I can hear a diesel about 3 cars behind , no idea the world was so noisy . I used to be a petrol head but Diesels and loud V8's have quickly becoming an offensive sound to me.

Agree GB. So what do you think would be the best conversion for a Puma Defender? ...anyone want to buy a low km 2.2 puma engine? :)

[donh54]

Actually, someone actually posted an answer to your question earlier in this thread, but here it is again:




" #6 – The electricity grid cannot handle the load of all electric cars!
During normal charging at nighttime, an electric car does not use a lot of electricity.
http://teslaclubsweden.se/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/tesla_2kW.jpg
Origin of the myth: People have fuzzy ideas about how much current an electric car draws. Many thinks that the need for installing a special home charger is because electric cars draw too much current while being charged. That might be true in the US with their 110V outlets, but not here in Europe with our 230V ones.
Why the myth is incorrect: While charging electric cars draw about the same current as comparable household appliances.
If you have driven 100 kilometers during a day, your electric car will have consumed about 20kWh of electricity. It is these 20 kWh you need to recharge back into its batteries at night. If you charge your car from 21:00 to 07:00 the next morning you have 10 hours to recharge 20kWh – that equals to 2kW of effect. That is the same effect and current an electric radiator (http://www.bauhaus.se/konvektorelement-2000w.html) uses.
Also, an average house uses 2500 kWh less energy this year than it did in the ’90s (http://teslaclubsweden.se/varifran-ska-vi-fa-all-el-till-elbilen-fran/). All those energy efficient kitchenware you have bought since then saves as much electricity combined as an electric car uses. If you buy an electric car your household will consume as much electricity again as it did in the 90’s. The power grid managed it then, and it will manage it now as well. "

Gee! They must have really, really smart charging controllers, then! You know, the ones with AI to figure out how long you're going to be home for, so they can limit the charging rate to spread the load over the appropriate time.
Pity if it hasn't spoken to your doctors' computer to realise that there is a really good chance of needing the car for a midnight dash to the Maternity Hospital!
[bighmmm] I wonder what the future percentage of ambulance callouts due to flat batteries will be? [bigwhistle]

As far as I understand it, the controller will deliver the maximum amount of charge it can handle, until the batteries reach around 90-95% charge, and then the load tapers off. So you would be looking at a whole lot of electric radiators! Then, after you've plugged that in, you walk into the house, turn on the A/C, lights, the TV and put the kettle on. Not a simple thing for the infrastructure providers to allow for.

I agree that EV's are probably the future, but I also feel that the reports of the eminent demise of the ICE are somewhat premature. [thumbsupbig]

Just as an aside, until I got our house re-wired, the connection from the mains went through a Bakelite connector, dating back to the time when a household wiring system had to handle half a dozen light bulbs, a wireless, and (post 1950) a refrigerator. I was told by the SEQEB foreman who did the changeover (about 20 years ago) that overloading them was the major cause of fires in old Queenslander homes. He said their maximum rating when new, was often as low as 10 amps! At that time, he estimated that around 70% of the older homes in Warwick (population ~10,000) still had the old connectors fitted.