RRC exploding viscofan trick

[Mercguy]

A few days ago the RRC decided to play a dirty trick on me and the plastic viscofan decided to separate from the hub at terminal velocity.

It's done a ripper on the bonnet, and shredded a number of hoses and fanbelts, disintegrated the fan shroud and killed the radiator core too - I found this out later when pressure testing the system.

So I searched on the forum for thermofan conversions and came across one in technical chatter https://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/232862-thermatic-electric-fan-conversion.html - funnily enough I had posted in it before.... I made some calls and decided on a solution, then got the fan I needed.

But now for the inevitable xmas holiday drama.... After all, no true Landrover owner story would be complete without a tiny bit of drama thrown in....

The viscohub nut is absolutely siezed (yes, I know it's LH) on the water pump shaft, so I removed the entire pump yesterday in the attempt to free up space in the engine bay and decide if I am to remove the radiator or not, to fit the 16" thermofan. What a FPITA. Possibly the dumbest setup ever invented by man. Would have been easier to pull the radiator out. (I didn't want to undo the trans/ps cooling lines from rad, I was pressure testing, hence somewhat disjointed sounding post)

Main reason was that I didn't want to remove the other fluid cooling lines (cracking potential), and would have preferred to test-fit the fan in-situ - which removal of the viscohub would have easily allowed me to do...

However I then discovered some deformed tubes where the fan has let go and I don't particularly like the look of it. So the radiator will now be coming out anyway. Oh well.

Water pump impeller and housing is still perfect. That's a bonus. Bronze impeller and proper coolant makes a difference. No corrosion in the timing cover or waterjacket. No slime.

So at this point, I have a choice to make. I already know I'm going to pull the radiator out and have it re-cored. (No alloy here thanks).

But I am also err-ing on larger standalone oil coolers for the PS/Trans/Engine, and considering the OM606 has to go in within the next couple of months, It's probably a better idea to do it now and have it all fabricated and neat, rather than fit stuff up separately later.
It will also give me the opportunity to remove the coolers from the radiator end tanks, or perhaps utilize one as a heat exchanger for a hot shower feed. Either way, I'd prefer to remove them and keep oil separate from coolant.

But that made me think about the oil coolers and whether or not to have multiple coolers in a single fabricated crossflow unit, or separate mounted units. I had also given thought to transfer case remote cooling, given that I will have the ability to fabricate new hydraulic hard lines for everything once the OM606 goes in, and one more pair of lines and a small hydraulic electric pump can be placed easily in the engine bay.

ThermoFan I'm using is a Spal 16" -rated at over 2000cfm continuous, max current draw is 21A. Can be PWM controlled or stepped in series, but I'm doing relay triggering off my redarc temp gauge relay triggers for the moment. (both the hvac aux fans and the replacement thermofan)
I may choose to run a separate soft-start profiled speed controller later, but it can wait until the OM606 is in, as there will likely be a need to relocate certain things.

No holiday is complete without a little range rover drama!

Getting quote for the re-core/alterations later today. Hope it's not too evil.

[DoubleChevron]

Which motor does it have ? I seem to recall the serptentine belt V8 in one of mine has the opposite fan hub thread to the V belt V8.................. ie: Now you have that bastard nice and tight ...... It's probably time to try loosening it in the other direction [bigrolf] [bighmmm]

[Mercguy]

it's the last of the v-belt 3.9's and LH thread.

[PhilipA]

If you have a V belt motor with the white multi blade fan, a 300Tdi fan and VC will fit with a slight trim of the blades by about 5MM.
The advantage is that the black 300Td1 fan is glass filled and if a blade breaks the fibreglass keeps the blade on and it just flops around. I broke one in a creek crossing on the OTT and didn't hole the radiator . I was able to trim an opposite one and drove back to Cooktown where I had a new fan delivered.
The Td1 fan also blows more air than the white fan, according to graeme Cooper who gave me the original set when he moved premises. I replaced this with the same later. The blades are longer.
A better working alternative than electric fans.
Regards Philip A

[350RRC]

The C9 trans in my POS is cooled with an external cooler that sits in front of the radiator. I don't use the oil plumbing in the radiator at all. The cooler is mounted on brackets independent of the rad and area wise would be about 1/5.

Probably just me, but I can't see the logic in 'cooling' transmission oil in a medium that is already over 90 degrees C.

The Spal............ will be useless unless it is properly shrouded. The failure of many electric thermo conversions is shoddy or non-existent shrouding. Doesn't matter how much they flow.

The excellent shrouding on the EL thermo system and the tight fit you can get to a RRC rad is why they do work. (apart from screaming flat out, efficiently sucking big volumes of air through the rad while crawling along on a stinking hot day in the sand, etc).

DL

[aussiebushman]

You jinxed me!! The plastic fan threw a blade last night, this time (yes it has happened on other vehicle before this) happily without taking out the cowl and the bonnet. The viscous coupling had only recently been replaced and it is not a big job, or even a very expensive one.

Speaking as someone who has done this job a couple of times, the hard part as you have discovered is removing the fan nut. Doing this is essential and you have a couple of options - one is to remove the cowl first but I do NOT recommend that because it will almost certainly mean cutting it to get it out past the fan - then you will have to repair or replace it. The better option is to buy or steal a open end spanner (32 mm I think), drilll a couple of holes in it and bolt a heavy bar onto it to extend the amount of torque you can apply, also make it possible to hammer it (clockwise as you face the vehicle).

Unfortunately, the pulley will want to turn with the nut so you'll have to find a way to stop that. One way is to buy (expensive) or make ( a fair bit of fabrication involved) a fan spanner that fits over the small bolts. The other option is to use a Stilson or similar tool to grab the pulley and stop it from moving. The nut WILL come off - just persevere with lots of oil and sweat.

Once you get the fan off, replacing the fan section and/or the coupling is child's play- and it will work without trying to fit something from another vehicle - though Philip is right - a TDI fan is better made than the white plastic crap

[PhilipA]

You should check your white fan at every service/oil change or maybe even buy a new one as a service item seeing they are 27+ years old!.
The telltale sign is cracks at the base of the blade.
It doesn't throw a blade staright away, the crack opens gradually.
The Tdi fan also needs the VC as the bolt spacings are different.
Regards Philip A

[Mercguy]

I'd better update this...

Thursday last week I pulled the radiator and took it off to be repaired. It was damaged.

got it back yesterday, substantially heavier, thicker and without the heat exchangers in the side tanks as requested.

The old core was clear of debris and silicone worms and working well, but it also was not long for this earth - 'dodged a bullet' one might say.

New unit is overkill for existing 3.9 and 'comfortably sized' for the upcoming OM606 swap.
It's a special parallel 4-core heavy duty high density brass louvered unit - for salt-laden coastal areas. Should last another 40 years if looked after.

It cost a bloody fortune, but you get what you pay for.

Have commenced fabrication of shroud and oil / trans coolers are on their way from setrab.
Hydraulic lines yet to be completed - I'm relocating them away from the engine / steering box etc.

Pin core cooler was flushed and new lines will be fabricated for this, as it is being relocated.

Plastic deflector between grille base and bullbar is being removed and replaced with stainless gauze and lip scoop.

There will be a requirement later to modify the upper portion of the radiator support panel to a bolt-in arrangement, rather than the spotwelds, to aid the OM606 swap (without removing wings / guards / fenders whatever you want to refer to them as)

Also taking the time to size up a replacement HVAC condensor, but one with a more modern MFC and subcooler tank. This will also improve airflow through radiator core, with it's more efficient design.

existing hvac aux pusher fans are being removed and replaced also.

I would not recommend anyone with a standard vehicle or a minimal offroad use vehicle undertake all this - just get replacement viscofan, hub and shroud. You do not need the added expense or the segregation of fluids, if you're not doing engine swaps or pedalling hard. Neither do you need to attack the HVAC condensor or aux fans, unless you think it's crook.

I'm only doing this as it presented an opportune time to tackle these tasks before the OM606 goes in, which will help cut down on the swap timeframe down the track.

considering running steel lines down the chassis rails to the trans and transfer case with equal length flexible pigtails - which will allow for generic replacement short hoses should one fail, and keep spares to a minimum.

Not a fan of the RRC's BSP or a fan of hard to find metric fittings, so will use adaptors to common JIC / AN conventional thread sizes for easy availability / replacement.

[DoubleChevron]

I'd better update this...

Thursday last week I pulled the radiator and took it off to be repaired. It was damaged.

got it back yesterday, substantially heavier, thicker and without the heat exchangers in the side tanks as requested.

The old core was clear of debris and silicone worms and working well, but it also was not long for this earth - 'dodged a bullet' one might say.

New unit is overkill for existing 3.9 and 'comfortably sized' for the upcoming OM606 swap.
It's a special parallel 4-core heavy duty high density brass louvered unit - for salt-laden coastal areas. Should last another 40 years if looked after.

It cost a bloody fortune, but you get what you pay for.

Have commenced fabrication of shroud and oil / trans coolers are on their way from setrab.
Hydraulic lines yet to be completed - I'm relocating them away from the engine / steering box etc.

Pin core cooler was flushed and new lines will be fabricated for this, as it is being relocated.

Plastic deflector between grille base and bullbar is being removed and replaced with stainless gauze and lip scoop.

There will be a requirement later to modify the upper portion of the radiator support panel to a bolt-in arrangement, rather than the spotwelds, to aid the OM606 swap (without removing wings / guards / fenders whatever you want to refer to them as)

Also taking the time to size up a replacement HVAC condensor, but one with a more modern MFC and subcooler tank. This will also improve airflow through radiator core, with it's more efficient design.

existing hvac aux pusher fans are being removed and replaced also.

I would not recommend anyone with a standard vehicle or a minimal offroad use vehicle undertake all this - just get replacement viscofan, hub and shroud. You do not need the added expense or the segregation of fluids, if you're not doing engine swaps or pedalling hard. Neither do you need to attack the HVAC condensor or aux fans, unless you think it's crook.

I'm only doing this as it presented an opportune time to tackle these tasks before the OM606 goes in, which will help cut down on the swap timeframe down the track.

considering running steel lines down the chassis rails to the trans and transfer case with equal length flexible pigtails - which will allow for generic replacement short hoses should one fail, and keep spares to a minimum.

Not a fan of the RRC's BSP or a fan of hard to find metric fittings, so will use adaptors to common JIC / AN conventional thread sizes for easy availability / replacement.

I'd love to see a piccie/specs of that radiator!

[Mercguy]

147366147367147372

[DoubleChevron]

that is about the size a standard rangie radiator look... but when you look closely at the core the normal one is only about 60% of the thickness of the tanks. That one looks to be 100% of the thickness! Very impressive [thumbsupbig]

[Mercguy]

Sorry for the poor pics Shane, no space to get it in a spot to take a pic - raining outside, no space inside and poor lighting. Phone was all I had at the time.

It's a damn site heavier than the old one, and is all brass core and fin, silver soldered, core has a special tube type that is not like a normal copper/brass setup. I can't remember the name/spec of the actual brass tube, I think they call the fin type a super heavy duty louvre core or something similar. All I can tell you is that it's not the off-the-shelf replacement core. (they make a complete replacement RRC unit, and a standard recore unit section, both of which were in stock in sydney, but this core was order-only)
All I can tell you is that prices for 'proper' copper/brass radiators have more than doubled in the last 5 years... [bigsad]

[aussiebushman]

"All I can tell you is that prices for 'proper' copper/brass radiators have more than doubled in the last 5 years."

Ain't that the truth! I just paid $1200 for a recored 3 layer copper/brass unit and that was after rejecting the choice of a 4-layer for a couple of hundred more

[DoubleChevron]

"All I can tell you is that prices for 'proper' copper/brass radiators have more than doubled in the last 5 years."

Ain't that the truth! I just paid $1200 for a recored 3 layer copper/brass unit and that was after rejecting the choice of a 4-layer for a couple of hundred more

Yes but if you buy a high quality efficient core .......... I bet its still going strong in 30years time!

[Homestar]

Don’t ask what a recore on a radiator that keeps a 50 litre, 2000HP V16 Diesel cool - we just did one at work... You could buy a nice new small car for the same price. The cost of having the machine on hire near the coast for several years...

[DoubleChevron]

I'm surprised how many variations of radiators there is too. I tried to refit the radiator to my car yesterday and found the oil cooler connections were Oring type on the hoses, but flared on the radiator. I pull out the damaged radiator .... Yep, Oring type. So I unscrewed the Oring connectors from that radiator, then trashed the Flare type connectors on the "good" radiator tryng to unscrew them (the threads must have been soldered). So now to un-usable radiators. Then I remembers I had a spare radiator in one of the sheds, so I went and found that ................... no bloody oil cooler connectors ... sigh.

So 3 different radiators, I could just solder up the damaged tank on the radiator that leaks, but its core looks sus. I think I'll just take them into the local radiator place and get them to move the tank with the oil cooler over to the best radiator (and rod the core while the tanks is off).

seeya,
Shane L.

[p38arover]

(I didn't want to undo the trans/ps cooling lines from rad, I was pressure testing, hence somewhat disjointed sounding post)

My '86 RRC had separate coolers. There were no trans/ps cooling lines into the radiator.

My RRC fan caught before failure:

147479


Unfortunately, the pulley will want to turn with the nut so you'll have to find a way to stop that. One way is to buy (expensive) or make ( a fair bit of fabrication involved) a fan spanner that fits over the small bolts.

I made one to change my L322 radiator. It was fairly simple to make. I can link the drawing for an L322 and you can mod to suit.

[DoubleChevron]

Well I just took the two radiators in hoping they could swap the tank with the right oil cooler fittings over to the good radiator. He took one look at the good radiator (.... well more of a 0.5 seconds glimpse ) and said "Cheap chinese piece of ****, don't waste your time with it. I can't change the tanks over as look how small the tanks are on the chinese ****.... So I asked could he rod out the damaged one and solder up the split in the tank..... "I can fix the split, but if I try to dismantle that core it'll leak everywhere... see how it's already leaking at the corners". I mentioned I had another radiator at home with no oil cooler as all. "Can I bring that in and have the tanks swapped over" .... "If they are the same, no worries".


Oh ....


"By the way, I do a lot of these Rover radiators, these pommy cars always seem to run hot in extreme weather ... they just aren't made for it. I have also never seen a rover radiator with flare type oil cooler connectors, and never seen one without an oil cooler installed, so I"m not sure where you got those radiators from". He apparently does all the land rover radiators for the repairers in ballarat. He said he could make up a quality aussie made radiator for about $750 ( which I thought was remarkably cheap).

So my guess is I have a cheap chinese radiator here that had the wrong hose connections so they changed the hoses on the car ............... and maybe a really early 200TDi radiator that didn't require an oil cooler.

Its not often I go somewhere and find someone that knows there stuff backwards and inside out. It does make a pleasant change.

seeya,
Shane L.

[Mercguy]

Adrad is the only company in australia making copper/brass cores, so it's obviously going to be one of theirs, but by the sound of it, the price of the he's quoting you is for a 3 core . The RRP on a whole replacement 3 core standard unit is about 990, so factor in whatever discount off retail he's giving you, and that's the price of the 3 core complete unit. The one I replaced was a copper/brass 3 core unit with the heat exchangers in each side tank and those had 3/8" male bspt to ½" male bspp adapters on the core. Not o-ring fittings. It looked like it had been in there for quite a few years - possibly it was the original unit, but I do not know for sure.

the 4 core 'core' is about the same cost as the replacement off-the-shelf 3 core complete standard replacement unit and the all-brass heavy duty core is almost half as much again, and has to be made to order.

so for 750 bucks you are barking mad if the core is a 4 core replacement. Even if it is the 3 core, it sounds cheap. I never had any temp issues with my RRC on the previous radiator, but the viscofan obviously was working very hard maintaining temps, and obviously that contributed to it separating from the steel centre and tearing out the steel eyelets. That was a key factor in my decision to increase the capacity and go with a super heavy duty core.

I hope that I will never have to concern myself with RRC cooling issues in the future, but I have recently given some further thought to an LT230 pto hydraulic oil pump mod which I saw on pirate 4x4 some years ago.. seems like overkill, but I have time to consider whether it's actually worth bothering with.

[DoubleChevron]

this guy is really good. He has made a radiator for the old 1952 Citroen in the past. the core is simply a work of art that he used (really fine and efficient). It was only him there, so sadly I would say this is another dying (almost dead) trade. Given I can buy a new bit of chinese **** for less than $300 .... its a no brainer to chuck your existing radiator and replace it with more chinese ****.

I don't have $700 to spend on a radiator right now, but its certainly the way I'll go (I'm not buying chinese **** off ebay either way). Just to get the car back together I'll solder up the crack int he tank and refit it for now.

seeya,
Shane L

[AK83]

......

So my guess is I have a cheap chinese radiator here that had the wrong hose connections so they changed the hoses on the car ............... and maybe a really early 200TDi radiator that didn't require an oil cooler.

.... seeya,
Shane L.

Tdi radiators are only 3/4 the width of the V8 rads.


....

I don't have $700 to spend on a radiator right now, but its certainly the way I'll go (I'm not buying chinese **** off ebay either way). Just to get the car back together I'll solder up the crack int he tank and refit it for now.

seeya,
Shane L

I was at pick-a-part this morning lookign for stuff for my sisters RAV4, noticed a half decent nic Disco(v8) .. rad looked quite good, clean, not so old. Didn't bother to look inside, but the outside looked well kept.
Their radiator prices are quite reasonable .. $63. So may be worth a looksie.
In fact the entire motor looked in pretty decent condition, very clean for a RV8(as in not covered with years of oil buildup) .. so I'm guesstimating it had been rebuilt at some point then crashed into.

If 'ya want me to go check it out better, let me know(not far away).

[DoubleChevron]

Tdi radiators are only 3/4 the width of the V8 rads.



I was at pick-a-part this morning lookign for stuff for my sisters RAV4, noticed a half decent nic Disco(v8) .. rad looked quite good, clean, not so old. Didn't bother to look inside, but the outside looked well kept.
Their radiator prices are quite reasonable .. $63. So may be worth a looksie.
In fact the entire motor looked in pretty decent condition, very clean for a RV8(as in not covered with years of oil buildup) .. so I'm guesstimating it had been rebuilt at some point then crashed into.

If 'ya want me to go check it out better, let me know(not far away).

Thanks! Don't put yourself out for now. I'm starting to believe any reasonable looking radiator fitted to a Rangie is a chinese throw-away :( ..... I've just compared all the 3 radiators in the shed. The tanks on the land rover labelled radiator are actually 4 core tanks .... with a 3 core radiator in them (so the tanks are much bigger giving you extra coolant capacity ... and probably much more space for the oil coolers).

For now I will just solder up the tired land rover radiator and refit ( ti did cool the car well enough to tow the caravan to QLD and back last year).. I think sensible will be to get a new local radiator made at some point.

I didn't even consider a radiator being an issue given I have 3 of the damn things here!

seeya
Shane L.

[gavinwibrow]

I hope that I will never have to concern myself with RRC cooling issues in the future, but I have recently given some further thought to an LT230 pto hydraulic oil pump mod which I saw on pirate 4x4 some years ago.. seems like overkill, but I have time to consider whether it's actually worth bothering with.


Tell us more?

[DoubleChevron]

Are these radiators australian made I wonder ?



https://radiatordirect.com.au/index.php?route=product/searchvehicle&cat=1&manu_id=141&model=DISCOVERY%201&vehicleid[]=6469

[Mercguy]

Tell us more?

Sorry Gav, was distracted with non-vehicle related things for the last couple of weeks.

The thread was one of those ridiculous pirate ones I think it was called something like I blew up my LT230 at whatever - or something like that. Our resident aulro LT experts have provided some useful contributions to that thread, (Bush65 / AncientMariner credit) and I was musing through it... like most 'murican fora there's a fair degree of BS, so have to wade through that to get to the little nuggets of truth and enlightenment.

Anyway, there were some freakish oiling strategies going on with it, and they ended up not working perfectly. Not sure from memory what it was that caused it I think it was oil starvation on either the output shaft or planetary gears - whatever it was I will have to re-read it, but the guy used a hydraulic pump on the PTO as an oil circulation pump. There was definitely room to adapt the theory and execute it slightly differently. There is some sound ideology but I do recall that the implementation was a little different to how I envisaged it.

Bear in mind though, the guy who did it was racing a buggy or something and the lt230 was behind a chev I think. so all in all, probably a little 'stressed' in that application.

[350RRC]

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/land-rover/1626818-i-blew-up-my-lt-230-koh-took-me-out.html

is the thread. It's long but very interesting and the best bit is the OP (Buck) has paid his PB account so all the photos are still there.

cheers, DL