AUTO TRANS PROBLEM

[Patrick M]

Hi all,
I have just got back from a trip covering the Warren River area with my 1986 RRC.
It was a great trip excepting for the fuel consumption which was on one particular leg nearly half of what it should have been.
I payed a good deal of attention to as many aspects of the mechanical operation of the car that I could while driving and it soon became obvious that the auto was not locking up in fourth gear.
I have a couple of ideas as to what might be going on but would like some input from you blokes which may help me pin point the problem.
I have plans of up grading the engine and auto trans in the future and was hoping that there may be a quick fix to this problem while waiting for the new mods to be sorted and ready to go in.
Regards:-
Patrick M.

[Patrick M]

Hi all,
I have just got back from a trip covering the Warren River area with my 1986 RRC.
It was a great trip excepting for the fuel consumption which was on one particular leg nearly half of what it should have been.
I payed a good deal of attention to as many aspects of the mechanical operation of the car that I could while driving and it soon became obvious that the auto was not locking up in fourth gear.
I have a couple of ideas as to what might be going on but would like some input from you blokes which may help me pin point the problem.
I have plans of up grading the engine and auto trans in the future and was hoping that there may be a quick fix to this problem while waiting for the new mods to be sorted and ready to go in.
Regards:-
Patrick M.

Sorry All,
That first thread should have been "used nearly twice the fuel that it should have". "DOH"

[FisherX]

G'day Patrick,

Might be your MAF sensor. I'd not that up on the earlier injection but when I forgot to plug my MAF back in after an air cleaner change on my 95 Classic it had your symptoms.

[DoubleChevron]

How much fuel did it use? If your thinking 20L/100km is twice what it should use ....................... You might be in for a fright [bigsmile][bigsmile1]

[LRJim]

How much fuel did it use? If your thinking 20L/100km is twice what it should use ....................... You might be in for a fright [bigsmile][bigsmile1]Bahahah yeah..... i was lucky to get 400ks a tank in the D1 going to port Macquarie. Thats with the A.C off also
Cheers Jim

[PhilipA]

AFAIR the lock up on a 4hp22 is controlled by the governor within the transmission.

If the governor is dirty, again AFAIR the symptoms include lock up and that the first change from 1 to 2 on start up is delayed .
You could try to replace the filter and flush the transmission but I believe that this is rarely successful.

If the transmission was locking and you lack of economy was from other sources, check that the hand brake is not dragging ( have you adjusted recently?) , that the temperature sender to the ECU is reading correctly at 300ohms on hot engine. With an 85 you have a flapper and they would be pretty worn by now but check whether it opens smoothly. Also the cold start injector may be drooling so maybe isolate it from the injection .
Regards Philip A

[Patrick M]

AFAIR the lock up on a 4hp22 is controlled by the governor within the transmission.

If the governor is dirty, again AFAIR the symptoms include lock up and that the first change from 1 to 2 on start up is delayed .
You could try to replace the filter and flush the transmission but I believe that this is rarely successful.

If the transmission was locking and you lack of economy was from other sources, check that the hand brake is not dragging ( have you adjusted recently?) , that the temperature sender to the ECU is reading correctly at 300ohms on hot engine. With an 85 you have a flapper and they would be pretty worn by now but check whether it opens smoothly. Also the cold start injector may be drooling so maybe isolate it from the injection .
Regards Philip A

Thanks Phil,
Changing from first to second is ok. I will check the H/B. I recently checked through all the sensors and everything was ok but will go over them again. I have changed the Flapper type injection to the hot wire system.

[Patrick M]

Bahahah yeah..... i was lucky to get 400ks a tank in the D1 going to port Macquarie. Thats with the A.C off also
Cheers Jim
How about 3.25Klms Per Litre on one leg.

[LRJim]

How about 3.25Klms Per Litre on one leg.Yeah thats sucks worst ive had is 175 ks to 80ltrs. After fixing the vac advance and a re tune it helped quite a bit.
Dont forget you have a tired old 86 flapper, if you got 3ks per litre on just one leg id say your on a winner already[emoji106]I'd expect that all around on a 30 yr old rover.
Cheers Jim

[Patrick M]

I am fully aware of what the fuel consumption is on the classics and Disco's as I have owned a number of them.
I have had them return, 5 to 7.5 and 8Klms Per Litre depending on the application. But I'm pretty sure the as I said that the Fourth lock up is not working.
I'm confident that I will get to the bottom of it or die in the event of doing so.
Regards;-
PatrickM[bighmmm]

[4bee]

I'm confident that I will get to the bottom of it or die in the event of doing so.


[smilebigeye] That does seem a tad extreme & certainly not worth the effort unless of course you are 110 years of age..[biggrin][biggrin]

[Patrick M]

[smilebigeye] That does seem a tad extreme & certainly not worth the effort unless of course you are 110 years of age..[biggrin][biggrin]
"EXTREEM" nothing can be classesd as extreem while in the pursuit of achieving excellence.
Anyway I stripped out the park brake today and unseized the adjuster and activator mechanisims, while I was at it I also removed the prop shafts, stripped them down, lubed the splines and made sure the uni's were working appropriately with grease getting through to each of the cup bearings.
There was a slight dragging of the hand break shoes but not enough to warrant such poor fuel economy I don't think, anyway I'll take the old girl for a run tomorrow and see. [bighmmm] Here's hoping?

[4bee]

"EXTREEM" nothing can be classesd as extreem while in the pursuit of achieving excellence.
Anyway I stripped out the park brake today and unseized the adjuster and activator mechanisims, while I was at it I also removed the prop shafts, stripped them down, lubed the splines and made sure the uni's were working appropriately with grease getting through to each of the cup bearings.
There was a slight dragging of the hand break shoes but not enough to warrant such poor fuel economy I don't think, anyway I'll take the old girl for a run tomorrow and see. [bighmmm] Here's hoping?

[smilebigeye]

Thank goodness I won't need to send flowers now.[biggrin]

[Patrick M]

G'day Patrick,

Might be your MAF sensor. I'd not that up on the earlier injection but when I forgot to plug my MAF back in after an air cleaner change on my 95 Classic it had your symptoms.
Yep, I not too long ago went through all the sensors and they checked out OK but will do it again.
By the way I have swapped over the old "FLAPPER" type injection to the hotwire system.

[Patrick M]

[smilebigeye]

Thank goodness I won't need to send flowers now.[biggrin]
Hey don't worry about the flowers "JUST SEND MONEY".

[Blknight.aus]

do a stall test.

if its high the stator is slipping.

check the TC lock up function.

If either of those is out theres half your issue.

Add in some off timing and rich mix and theres the rest of it.

and a little throttle pressure sense cable slackness just for some extra measure.

[PhilipA]

There was a slight dragging of the hand break shoes but not enough to warrant such poor fuel economy I don't think, anyway I'll take the old girl for a run tomorrow and see. [bighmmm]
Here's hoping?
If your handbrake was dragging cold then it will tighten up when warm.
Regards Philip A

[Patrick M]

If your handbrake was dragging cold then it will tighten up when warm.
Regards Philip AHmmm, yep good point Philip, but I still cannot feel it locking up in fourth.[bighmmm]

[Patrick M]

do a stall test.

if its high the stator is slipping.

check the TC lock up function.

If either of those is out theres half your issue.

Add in some off timing and rich mix and theres the rest of it.

and a little throttle pressure sense cable slackness just for some extra measure.
Hi Blknight,
Can you explain how to carry out a stall test please?
I have my own idea on how to do it but would like you clarify it for me if you could please.

[gavinwibrow]

Hi Blknight,
Can you explain how to carry out a stall test please?
I have my own idea on how to do it but would like you clarify it for me if you could please.


Google "land rover automatic stall test". Info including videos available. Cheers

[Blknight.aus]

Hi Blknight,
Can you explain how to carry out a stall test please?
I have my own idea on how to do it but would like you clarify it for me if you could please.

Start it up, warm it up, pull up the park brake, lock your left foot down on the brakes slip it in drive high range and then mash the noisey pedal.

engine RPMS will hit a peak, hold it for no more than 5 seconds.

let us know what it was.

[Patrick M]

Ok, I have done the hand brake, freed it all up as I have already said, adjusted it properly, done the prop shafts (not that they would affect this problem to much) checked the AFM and heat sensor, all fine.
So here is the funny bit, I took it for a bit of a test drive this arvo along with the "trouble and strife" and loo and behold she says to me "oh that swoosh, swoosh, swooshing noise has stopped".
Well how was I supposed to know "I'm half deaf".
I'm still not totally convinced that that was the problem so tomorrow I'm taking a trip over to the Auto trans people to have an apprasial done on it.
Actually the trip over there and back again will probably show whether the fuel consumption has improved or not "yeah" it's about a 100Klms round trip.
Good one hey Philip. [bigwhistle]

[Patrick M]

Hi All,
Ok I have done the stall test and the result was 1,400 RPM is that good or what? [bigsad]

[Patrick M]

Is the engine supposed to stop running? if it is then my auto is not in good nick is it?[bigsad]
It just kept running at 1,400 RPM.
Anyway I have to accept that as it is probably the original box!!!!!!

[Blknight.aus]

no the engine should drop to idle when you take your foot off the throttle.

1400 is low you should be a bit higher than that.

most if your fuel issue is likely to be in the engine tune and timing.


this doesnt discount that the tc lock up is working. if thats not working theres the other half of your problem.

what colour is your trans oil.

[Patrick M]

no the engine should drop to idle when you take your foot off the throttle.

1400 is low you should be a bit higher than that.

most if your fuel issue is likely to be in the engine tune and timing.


this doesnt discount that the tc lock up is working. if thats not working theres the other half of your problem.

what colour is your trans oil.
Thanks mate.
It certainly rules out a few problems that could be suspected.

[Patrick M]

Hi all,[thumbsupbig]
I have to thank everyone for their imput to my fuel consumption problem,
today I took the old girl "VILET" for a good run in order to calculate what the fuel consumption returns are, after carring out the checks and adjustments that I have made.

I was pleasently supprised to find that the fuel usage after a 150Klm plus trip has improved enormously from 3.25 (worst possible) to 6.2Klms per litre.
It was the handbrake dragging that caused the problem.
Anyway thanks again for all your help.
Regards:-
Patrick M.[bigrolf]

[Mercguy]

16L/100km is absolutely nothing to scoff at. I've seen double that towing in low range.

[DoubleChevron]

16L/100km is absolutely nothing to scoff at. I've seen double that towing in low range.

i get more than double that towing in high range ..................................... (on lpg) .... Think 68litres of lpg and 190kms tops before we are switching over to the liquid stuff.

[Mercguy]

i get more than double that towing in high range ..................................... (on lpg) .... Think 68litres of lpg and 190kms tops before we are switching over to the liquid stuff.

Best I've had is 20/100 in normal driving. Bearing in mind that the 100 zone is 2km from the driveway and most of the driving in the RRC occurs in 80-110 zones. about ¾ of the total use. So it's not a great "economy" result.

Towing on the freeway will see 28-30 no problem.

But low range is where it will easily eclipse 30/100 without batting an eyelid.

I would have thought your LPG mileage would be a tiny bit better than that at least - [wink11]

[DoubleChevron]

Best I've had is 20/100 in normal driving. Bearing in mind that the 100 zone is 2km from the driveway and most of the driving in the RRC occurs in 80-110 zones. about ¾ of the total use. So it's not a great "economy" result.

Towing on the freeway will see 28-30 no problem.

But low range is where it will easily eclipse 30/100 without batting an eyelid.

I would have thought your LPG mileage would be a tiny bit better than that at least - [wink11]

LPG is a less dense fuel. SO you use more of it (yes, you can get way more power as the octane rating is very high if you build the motor to run dedicated LPG... But it'll still use more). Fuel economy is probably 20% worse.

seeya,
Shane L.

[Patrick M]

Hi Blokes,
I thought I might add something here to the fuel economy issue and I'm probably preaching to the already converted here,[bigwhistle] but a year or so back I fitted 245 70R16 tyres to "VILET" (1986 RRC) but found that the fuel consumption went up dramatically.
The reason for this was that the tyres were 730mm in diameter and the standard recommended tyres were 700mm, which then makes the odometer reading wrong.
I then compared the odometer reading with the Kilometers actually travelled and found that in my case the odometer was reading 12% less than what had actually been travelled, so this had to be calculated into the economy figures when working off the odometer reading thus making a big but positive difference to the economy figures.
:soapbox:Ok I'll get off now.

[Mercguy]

Hi Blokes,
I thought I might add something here to the fuel economy issue and I'm probably preaching to the already converted here,[bigwhistle] but a year or so back I fitted 245 70R16 tyres to "VILET" (1986 RRC) but found that the fuel consumption went up dramatically.
The reason for this was that the tyres were 730mm in diameter and the standard recommended tyres were 700mm, which then makes the odometer reading wrong.
I then compared the odometer reading with the Kilometers actually travelled and found that in my case the odometer was reading 12% less than what had actually been travelled, so this had to be calculated into the economy figures when working off the odometer reading thus making a big but positive difference to the economy figures.
:soapbox:Ok I'll get off now.


There is a solution for this - speedohealer. SpeedoHealer v4 speedo and odo calibrator by HealTech Electronics Ltd. (https://www.healtech-electronics.com/products/sh/)

They are a speed sensor correction device.

v4 is for hall sensors. They also do a 2-wire VR sensor version.

I have it in my 300 coupe and the RRC. Best bit is the speedo is absolutely dead accurate because you callibrate it with high-speed gps. Or you can deliberately program a "safety margin" in once you have worked out the correction factor, so that your 105 is actually 100 - just in case your speedo has been so far out of whack for years you cannot get used to an accurate one.

[DoubleChevron]

There is a solution for this - speedohealer. SpeedoHealer v4 speedo and odo calibrator by HealTech Electronics Ltd. (https://www.healtech-electronics.com/products/sh/)

They are a speed sensor correction device.

v4 is for hall sensors. They also do a 2-wire VR sensor version.

I have it in my 300 coupe and the RRC. Best bit is the speedo is absolutely dead accurate because you callibrate it with high-speed gps. Or you can deliberately program a "safety margin" in once you have worked out the correction factor, so that your 105 is actually 100 - just in case your speedo has been so far out of whack for years you cannot get used to an accurate one.

That is interesting. I tend to just check the speedo with my phone (gps). Most of them are quite close. The modern ****boxes are often understated by upto 5km/h at 60km/h. I have the most issues with my old cars wth mph speedo. Do you think I can remember what odd speeds like 40km/h, 50km/h and 80km/h are in mph....

seeya,
Shane L.

[DiscoMick]

Just keep in mind it's illegal for the speedo to read less than the actual speed and it makes your vehicle technically unroadworthy, which could affect your insurance if you crash and assessor uses it as an excuse to reject your claim.

On fuel economy, the figures mentioned scare me, as my Puma Defender only uses 11 l/100 kms when towing our camper.

[DoubleChevron]

Just keep in mind it's illegal for the speedo to read less than the actual speed and it makes your vehicle technically unroadworthy, which could affect your insurance if you crash and assessor uses it as an excuse to reject your claim.

On fuel economy, the figures mentioned scare me, as my Puma Defender only uses 11 l/100 kms when towing our camper.

the ****box here uses easily 35L/100kms towing the block of flats. Most petrol 4wds made in the last 50years will return similar economy sadly (they just don't tend to talk about it like land rover owners do).

[gavinwibrow]

There is a solution for this - speedohealer. SpeedoHealer v4 speedo and odo calibrator by HealTech Electronics Ltd. (https://www.healtech-electronics.com/products/sh/)

They are a speed sensor correction device.

v4 is for hall sensors. They also do a 2-wire VR sensor version.

I have it in my 300 coupe and the RRC. Best bit is the speedo is absolutely dead accurate because you callibrate it with high-speed gps. Or you can deliberately program a "safety margin" in once you have worked out the correction factor, so that your 105 is actually 100 - just in case your speedo has been so far out of whack for years you cannot get used to an accurate one.


$134.10 - bugger, I've just spent $206 ordering a C6100 speedo adapter for my RRC. Oh well at least I know they work as I have one in the D2.

[Patrick M]

the ****box here uses easily 35L/100kms towing the block of flats. Most petrol 4wds made in the last 50years will return similar economy sadly (they just don't tend to talk about it like land rover owners do).
Yeah isn't that something.
For years and years fuel consumption of the Range Rovers was always a lever for owners of other 4x4's but non of them would mention what they were getting out of their machines.
When I was doing some desert driving, (no tracks, cross country only) we were crossing sand ridge after sand ridge I had my 3.5 V8 D1 Disco at the time, one of my mates had a Toyota diesel troop carrier, we were in the desert for 10 days and after it he came out 1Klm per litre better off than my D1, which I was totally gobsmacked about especially when I had to go up the sand ridges and pull him over the top of nearly every one because he got bogged halfway up.
By the way the Toyota was a non turbo diesel.
My mate was a bit disgusted at the ease at which I climbed over the ridges and then pulled him over so when he got back to home me went straight out and bought a Detroit locker for the Tojo, to which I thought at the time might make a bit of a difference but not solve the problem totally.