Renewable energy exploding

[DiscoMick]

Australia on track to meet Paris Agreement targets five years earlier than expected, research finds - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-08/australia-ahead-of-paris-agreement-target-by-five-years/10789810)

[goingbush]

Apparently that is Fake news using falsified data.

Let’s get something straight - Australia is not on track to meet its Paris climate target - Climate Council (https://www.climatecouncil.org.au/australia-not-on-track-to-meet-climate-targets/)

[trout1105]

Just how many threads discussing renewables do we need on this site?

[ramblingboy42]

How many are there?

[Ranga]

Just how many threads discussing renewables do we need on this site?

Isn't this the Alternate Energies section?

[Eevo]

Renewable energy exploding

hmm, very unreliable, always exploding.
several threads about it on this forums about them exploding.

[Dervish]

RE projects that are easy to get off the ground (i.e. solar and to a lesser extent batteries) are indeed exploding in numbers. Other technologies like pumped hydro are still in the works (Snowy 2.0 and Battery of the Nation), but they're coming.

2018 - Australian Solar’s record-smashing year. In eye-watering charts - SunWiz Solar Consultants (http://www.sunwiz.com.au/index.php/2012-06-26-00-47-40/73-newsletter/441-2018-australian-solar’s-record-smashing-year-in-eye-watering-charts.html)

[Zeros]

The more discussion here about renewable energy and climate change the better. ...after all, it's fossil fuel burning motor vehicles that are the primary culprits.

We have a collective responsibility as a significant user group to educate ourselves and work towards change. Obviously it will take time and most of us still need to drive diesel and petrol vehicles, but the more we discuss and inform ourselves the better equipped we'll be to vote with our feet and towards EV's become a viable alternative. This includes doing whatever we can to foster the reduction of coal fired power and support increases in renewable energies where ever possible.

It's clearly in all our best interests in terms of climate change.

But it's also in our interests in terms of performance, low maintenance and liveability.

Most people will buy an EV in the next 10 years because it is better, quieter and cheaper to run. This will accelerate the banning of all new diesel and petrol vehicles (currently slated for 2040 in many cities).

EV's are coming and it will happen more quickly than anyone could have imagined...

EV forecasts: not plugged in - ECIU (https://eciu.net/blog/2018/ev-forecasts-not-plugged-in)

There is ongoing discussion about the reality of EV's as climate saviours and the pro's and con's of batteries in terms of manufacture and disposal, but it seems to be adding up that overall EV's will be much healthier for our planet.

Electric Vehicles: Climate Saviors, or Not? | Issues in Science and Technology (https://issues.org/electric-vehicles-climate-saviors-or-not/)

It's not just making the change to EV's over time that's important, but also being vocal and active about reducing all fossil fuel usage: "The more carbon intensive the grid (primarily due to the burning of coal), the less effective EVs will be at reducing carbon emissions."

And it's going to happen despite all antiquated notions that it wont:
Electric future? Global push to move away from gas-powered cars | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/13/electric-cars-climate-change-summit-zero-emissions)

[manic]

It's done, in Europe at least. Norway new car sales already up to 45% EV. UK is just about to bring a 1.2gW wind farm online. Not even nuclear power can compete. Renewables are cheaper, faster to deploy and scale. Cheaper will win.

We just need to push our own government to ditch support for coal and obstruct cheap coal exports that encourage dirty power in dev countries. It's undermining global efforts.

Unfortunately it seems the push of the vote in this country is not as strong as corporate influence, perhaps because voters here are easily swayed by big money campaigns that set the national dialog / focus.

We have space and resources to build the biggest solar farms in the world and have plenty of windy onshore and offshore locations for turbines.

For our own household energy needs, we don't need to wait for government. Solar and batteries can easily free a house from grid coal. But again, we are slow to buy in. We can get finance on a 50 - 100k car that depreciates and eats money by just smiling at a dealership. But we dont buy into battery solar because we can't afford it... so we pay our bills instead -what a joke!

There should be a relentless national push to get households generating their own power, but again government has been careful to not upset established business models. Why are new builds required to meet efficiency standards but not incorporate solar/battery? It would be so easy!

Australia should be leading the way. Disappointed, to say the least.

[JDNSW]

Perhaps worth pointing out that the major reason that Norway can afford to subsidise EVs is that oil and gas represent 50% of the country's exports, and that Statoil, the state oil company, owns a large part of the production.

[trout1105]

The Grey Nomads and the camping fraternaty has gotten behind solar and battery power in a Big way over the last few years simply because it is a cheaper and a more reliable system than gensets were, They have also become "Smarter" and less "Wasteful" at how they use this power.
Maybe everyone else needs to have a good hard look at how they can use Less power at home and be "Smarter" and less "Wasteful" Then maybe they would be more comfortable with the idea of relying solely on renewables[thumbsupbig]

[PhilipA]

Ah, there is some much bull**** in this thread that I hope it dies where it is.
Norway subsidises EVs so much that it is much cheaper to own an EV than an ICE car.
Yet 70% of EV owners also own an ICE car.

No country has exceeded 20% renewable, besides Norway with extensive Hydro, but little wind or solar. Germany has not met it's own renewable targets for 5 years and are buying lots of BROWN coal energy from Poland. They will of course buy gas from Russia one day, and what a great idea that is.

Teslas are on average the fifth car in the USA, in other words a virtue signal.

On the hot Thursday a couple of weeks ago , 90% of power in SA was produced by Gas and Diesel with wind at 5% and solar and other at 5%, plus of course the BROWN coal power from Victoria. Really clean that. Wind power reduced to about 14% of capacity Australia wide at 2.30PM on that day according to the AMEO site.

We will not know what the penetration of EVs in Australia will be for a couple of years , however in Ontario sales of EVs virtually stopped when subsidies were removed.
Dream on .
Regards Philip A

[Zeros]

The Grey Nomads and the camping fraternaty has gotten behind solar and battery power in a Big way over the last few years simply because it is a cheaper and a more reliable system than gensets were, They have also become "Smarter" and less "Wasteful" at how they use this power.
Maybe everyone else needs to have a good hard look at how they can use Less power at home and be "Smarter" and less "Wasteful" Then maybe they would be more comfortable with the idea of relying solely on renewables[thumbsupbig]

Excellent example Trout...especially in terms of vehicle owners embracing renewable energy. Our nomadic population is on the rise that’s for sure and in addition to the benefits for the users, it’s so much more peaceful around campsites these days without generators! ...it’s become really noticeable over my 30 years as a nomadic camper. I’ve used solar and batteries for years. Looking forward to EV’s charging constantly and solar skinned vehicles!

Agree also at home. Some places like Tasmania are 100% renewable / hydro already, but solar is more cost efficient over long term for many especially off grid. Other places like SA have wind and big battery power coming online.

Switching off lights at home and using more efficient appliances is easy, but it needs a big campaign in cities!

It all helps. [thumbsupbig]

[Eevo]

Dream on .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9gKyRmic20

[Zeros]

Ah, there is some much bull**** in this thread that I hope it dies where it is.
Norway subsidises EVs so much that it is much cheaper to own an EV than an ICE car.
Yet 70% of EV owners also own an ICE car.

No country has exceeded 20% renewable, besides Norway with extensive Hydro, but little wind or solar. Germany has not met it's own renewable targets for 5 years and are buying lots of BROWN coal energy from Poland. They will of course buy gas from Russia one day, and what a great idea that is.

Teslas are on average the fifth car in the USA, in other words a virtue signal.

On the hot Thursday a couple of weeks ago , 90% of power in SA was produced by Gas and Diesel with wind at 5% and solar and other at 5%, plus of course the BROWN coal power from Victoria. Really clean that. Wind power reduced to about 14% of capacity Australia wide at 2.30PM on that day according to the AMEO site.

We will not know what the penetration of EVs in Australia will be for a couple of years , however in Ontario sales of EVs virtually stopped when subsidies were removed.
Dream on .
Regards Philip A

Thanks Philip, you’re just highlighting how far there is to go and how important it is to get on board.

[Fubar]

Google Ted Talk and David McKay...I cant link it on my network.

It's all good in theory until the facts are raised.

[Ferret]

Thanks Philip, you’re just highlighting how far there is to go and how important it is to get on board.

So stand by to be preached to even more.

[Eevo]

and how important it is to get on board.
Why It's So Hard for Some People to Admit They Were Wrong | Psychology Today (https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/the-squeaky-wheel/201811/why-its-so-hard-some-people-admit-they-were-wrong)

[Homestar]

Thanks Philip, you’re just highlighting how far there is to go and how important it is to get on board.

No where in PhillipA's post did he say he wasn't on board - this is what really grinds my gears with conversations like this - he is spot on with his assessment but based on that you think he doesn't like EV's or solar? I agree with everything he says because when you look at the facts, that's exactly where we are. I've had this out to a much larger extent in CA where this is being discussed as well. Does that mean I hate renewables? No - I think they need to be built faster in fact and much more effort and time needs to be spent on this, but the facts still remain that renewables contribute very little to the grid overall. It is one thing to say '50% of the nameplate capacity of Victorias grid is renewables' but because the output can't be relied on, this figure warps what is actually happening. The very hot day Vic got a couple of weeks back saw wind providing less than 4% of its capacity - because it was hot and not windy.

I hate coal power as much as anyone but as I understand what is going on (I work in the industry - both supply and distribution) and know we are stuck with it for decades yet because renewable power is still in such short supply overall. If for example we say Vic needs 10GW of power (It's actually more than this, but the number works for what I'm trying to explain here), there's no use building 10GW of renewables and calling it job done - we would need to build around 100GW of renewables - with around 70GWH of storage capacity to even come close. Vic currently has around 6GW of installed renewables - based on nameplate this sounds impressive in a few years we will have 50% nameplate capacity - but this will only give us around 20% of our power tops, a lot less on bad days.

See the problem here? What do we do when the coal stations are all shot? No one want to build a new one, no one wants to build nuclear but in around 10 years we'll be absolutely screwed if nothing is done about filling the gap while we build enough renewables to keep the lights on.

So, I believe in climate change, I'm pro EV, pro renewable, anti coal - but I get tarred with with the 'Your the problem' brush all the time because as an Engineer working in the field we are discussing here, I understand the limitations and what is required, not just all the fluffy warm stuff we here so much BS about...

Rant over, no having a go at you personally Zeros, but I get this sort of reaction a lot from people when I point out the flaws in the current hive mentality on this subject.

[Zeros]

Yes which is why I thanked PhilipA’s post. Some of the facts are true and remind us of the long road ahead.

But honestly I reckon you’re reading more into my post than was intended. If anything gets my goat, it’s the confrontational tone (which somehow seems to be acceptable?). The aggressive use of “BS” and “Dream on” do nothing to foster a civilised discussion.

Expressing a point of view is not a ‘rant’ or ‘preaching’ just because someone disagrees with it. It would be easy to all PhilipA’s post a rant, given the language used.

Perhaps the frustration is equal on both sides of the discussion.

[Homestar]

All good mate - I don't believe mine or Phillips post is confrontational - I think you're reading too much into our posts too. [wink11] BS and Dream on are pretty tame terms IMO.

Robust discussion is good on this subject - not enough of the nuts and bolts are discussed so terminology gets misused when people are only going of Government fluff and equally uniformed media opinion pieces.

[Eevo]

BS and Dream on are pretty tame terms IMO.

i'll have to up my game.

[manic]

No country has exceeded 20% renewable, besides Norway with extensive Hydro, but little wind or solar.

Is that true?

UK renewable energy capacity surpasses fossil fuels for first time | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/06/uk-renewable-energy-capacity-surpasses-fossil-fuels-for-first-time)

The UK ffs!

The technology to produce gigawats from renewables is ready, it's proven, it works and it's getting cheaper to build and maintain large scale. There's no debate, renewables are ready to deploy.

Norway as an example of Ev's taking over new car sales still stands tall. Cheaper models are about to hit the market, prices will be coming down for the rest of us with or without subsidies. EVs will outsell ICE globally.

Some countries take steps to speed up the transition from fossil fuels, others take steps to slow it down. So far Australia has been disappointing. There is so much potential here, and it's not some new found revelation, it's been ignored for years.

Of course we can't just shutdown all the coal stations right now, but lets not listen to any more political bull****. We do not need to invest in coal power going forward.

If you own your house, take it offgrid, and expect large scale renewable projects to replace our coal stations.

[Eevo]

i think bolivia also had good renewable % due to lots n lots of hydro. mind you they also have blackouts daily.

[Zeros]

...and we haven't even started talking about methane! [bigwhistle]

...it definitely sucks being a meat-eating rev-head and/or an environmental futurist in the current climate (pun intended).

[Homestar]

Is that true?

UK renewable energy capacity surpasses fossil fuels for first time | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/06/uk-renewable-energy-capacity-surpasses-fossil-fuels-for-first-time)

The UK ffs!

The technology to produce gigawats from renewables is ready, it's proven, it works and it's getting cheaper to build and maintain large scale. There's no debate, renewables are ready to deploy.

Norway as an example of Ev's taking over new car sales still stands tall. Cheaper models are about to hit the market, prices will be coming down for the rest of us with or without subsidies. EVs will outsell ICE globally.

Some countries take steps to speed up the transition from fossil fuels, others take steps to slow it down. So far Australia has been disappointing. There is so much potential here, and it's not some new found revelation, it's been ignored for years.

Of course we can't just shutdown all the coal stations right now, but lets not listen to any more political bull****. We do not need to invest in coal power going forward.

If you own your house, take it offgrid, and expect large scale renewable projects to replace our coal stations.

Capacity and actual output are 2 very different things. Generally output is around 10 to 20% of capacity or name plate data. It is these things that can be misleading if not accounted for correctly. Renewable energy is on and off as wind/sun/etc come and go so name plate ratings will never mean actual output even on the best days.

And yes, the tech is here and ready and I agree 100% we should be going nuts with it. Just need someone to invest to pay for it all which is a very different debate that certain parts of can't be discussed here. We just need to stop talking about it and get on with it.

Yep, off grid is very doable now and prices dropping all the time. May go this way myself once I have paid the Jag off... [bigwhistle]

[Zeros]

We're certainly not going to relinquish our love affair with electronic tech, effective heating, hot water, cooking, so a reliable mix of many and varied fuel and power generation sources will be essential for years to come.

I don't think anyone is suggesting non-renewable power sources should be shut down before enough renewable is online.

[Eevo]

I don't think anyone is suggesting non-renewable power sources should be shut down before enough renewable is online.

i think the non renewables will expire due to old age before enough renewables are ready.

[DiscoMick]

Nah this country has enough gas to last for many decades.

[Homestar]

I don't think anyone is suggesting non-renewable power sources should be shut down before enough renewable is online.

It’s happened already. Hazelwood was basically forced to shut down and we’ve seen that there isn’t enough renewable yet to cover this - I do however think closing Hazelwood was a good idea and the shortfalls are only on extreme days. Power consumption has dropped a fair bit in the last 5 years which is another reason we’ve survived ok without it. Consumption levels have plateaued recently so certainly in the short term we need to cover what we’re using now.

The bigger issues will come when the aging coal fired stations can no longer economically be run and the owners shut them down. This will happen in the next 10 to 15 years (Yallourn W for example is past end of life now and not expected to last another 10 years and there are many other stations up the East coast in the same condition) and we’ll still be a long way from being ready for this. Even at the most generous current projections with how much and how quickly renewables come on line, we’re still 25 years away from this - what’s going to fill the gap?

Not an easy question to answer based on the fact no one has come up with one yet. IMO the most likely way would be to really push home storage more now so prices continue to drop, but it’s still way too expensive for Families just breaking into the housing market and struggling to make ends meet. It would have to be less than half the current cost to make it feasible to mandate them in every new home, but that’s again a decade away, and then only covers new properties and those willing and able to retrofit their existing premises.

I’ll do what I can - I hope to go as much off grid as possible within a couple of years. Those that do will be a lot less worried about the whole situation.

[Homestar]

Nah this country has enough gas to last for many decades.

Burning gas isn’t much better than burning coal IMO. Fossil fuel, limited supply and it’s very expensive - it isn’t a magic bullet by a long way - look at the price of electricity in SA where it is used extensively.

[Homestar]

i think the non renewables will expire due to old age before enough renewables are ready.

Spot on...

[DiscoMick]

We have a huge amount of gas and burning it halves emissions compared with coal.
I already have an estimate for the cost of going off grid - about $18k in our case. The longer we wait, the cheaper the batteries become. Maybe next year, after some other priorities.

[PhilipA]

Is that true?
Re the UK. NO it isn't.
Are you aware that 4 previously coal fired power stations in UK owned by DRAX now burn wood chips that they import from the USA and are considered renewable, as the trees will grow back ( in 50 years).

This is just a dodge to be considered "renewable" and they are cutting down whole forests to feed the power stations.

Regards Philip A

[weeds]

We have a huge amount of gas and burning it halves emissions compared with coal.
I already have an estimate for the cost of going off grid - about $18k in our case. The longer we wait, the cheaper the batteries become. Maybe next year, after some other priorities.

Everywhere I drive there are signs up protesting against coal seam gas.....who will win in the end?? Maybe we don’t have access to as much gas as we think.

[weeds]

I’m not sure there can be enough renewables to switch 100%.

Given nobody wants nuclear in their back yard, coal is getting a hard time and so is gas. What’s the options

Solar and Wind??

To make solar and wind farms takes a lot of resources out of the ground.....is there enough??

Last Saturday there was one massive blade off a wind generator on a trailer parked up on the hi-way.......I could only imagine the resources that went into getting the blade to where it was.......how long before we get a return to the environment?? Will we ever get a positive return??

Either way I’ll still chip away doing what I can to help the world out......but i reckon it’s beyond the point of return and I don’t think they will slow up the effects on the planet as it’s ****ed.

[manic]

Are you aware that 4 previously coal fired power stations in UK owned by DRAX now burn wood chips that they import from the USA and are considered renewable, as the trees will grow back ( in 50 years).



They are cheeky buggers arnt they.

But they hit over 15gw in wind alone the other day, around 36% of demand in winter, on a cold blustery day. A record that will be broken when they switch on the largest offshore wind farm in the world, perhaps next week.

World’s largest wind farm to begin production this week in UK | RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/worlds-largest-wind-farm-to-begin-production-this-week-in-uk-78677/)

That's just one project, at step 1 of 4. It will more than quadruple is capacity over the coming years.

You have to admit, they are going for it!

Unlike the poor soggy sods all jam packed into the UK, we have wind AND SUN!

[DiscoMick]

Also, they truck much of their garbage to Amsterdam to be burned there to make electricity,

[DiscoMick]

although that may have to stop becauae of Brexit. Will they burn it in the UK instead?

[manic]

although that may have to stop becauae of Brexit. Will they burn it in the UK instead?After brexit they might aswell stuff it in the channel tunnel.

[ramblingboy42]

The biggest problem with alternative energy is change.

Embracing technology can be an almost terrifying experience for manufacturers, governments and the finance industries.

If you remember , Nikola Tesla forced change upon a country already committed to DC electricity. It cost Nikola his life.
But wasn't he so right?

If we reversed the situation and were talking about a wonderful thing called coal being introduced as the saviour to modern power generation , businesses, manufacturing and finance would be devastated at the actual cost of building new coal fired power generating plants, not considering the logistics and time factor involved to meet completion.

This is where we are now , with several good alternatives to produce the electricity , which , fortunately , can be brought online in stages , due to the nature of the beast.

We have had a wonderful relationship with coal, but that relationship is breaking down simply due to world market demand for future clean emissions and once fully established the ongoing cheaper cost of renewables.

Yes , there is a footprint to be covered over but do you remember what the old footprints were?

Nobody likes change. Embrace it. This change will only be good for you.

[PhilipA]

Er re dc/ ac. AFAIR China and other countries are now building lots of DC high voltage cables.
it seems Tesla was wrong.
regrds Philip A

[manic]

I'm no pro on the subject. But from what I've been taught, and in summary...

Tesla was right, back then. AC allowed power stations to deliver across long distances. DC could not deliver. The AC transformer won it for Tesla.

Wind and solar supplies DC, few exceptions. We have DC lighting, DC gadgets and soon to be DC cars. And we can now deliver DC more efficiently on high voltage transmission lines.

So it looks like a DC grid would be the better option given the choice today. But AC was the right choice way back when.

[Bigbjorn]

Check on danskenergi.dk. Wind energy supplied 39% of generation capacity in 2014, 42% in 2015, 43% in 2017. The Danes are looking to 84% in due course.

[JDNSW]

Manic is correct. DC has advantages for a lot of uses, although they may be countered by advantages of AC for other uses. (for example, AC is much less prone to arcing and generation of spikes when switched.)

However, when it comes to transmission from one place to another, AC has the advantage that the technology to change voltage (transformers) already existed and allowed transmission over long distances at high voltage and low loss, and transform to the desired voltage for local distribution. The technology to change voltage like this for DC has only existed in the last two or three decades, and has probably only become more economical very recently.(If indeed it is)

[beaven]

We have a huge amount of gas and burning it halves emissions compared with coal.
I already have an estimate for the cost of going off grid - about $18k in our case. The longer we wait, the cheaper the batteries become. Maybe next year, after some other priorities.

I’m in the process of building completely off-grid. Off-grid suppliers still seem to be cowboy operations with little regulation. But you can find good suppliers.

It became and easy decision when off-grid vs connections was about the same cost, but obviously cheaper over time as I have no bills other than yearly maintenance.

It seems like new builds should have at least some solar & storage capacity built in.

Building decently energy efficient homes is another area where we could have impact. You can built 7+ star energy rated homes and not need much in the way of heating or cooling. Surely this is another way to reduce energy use without compromise to lifestyles.

Build a smaller house with some renewables capacity rather than a huge McMansion? But this requires a cultural shift in what we think of as a ‘good home’.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, we're pretty poor at energy efficient design, and not just in houses either.

I was sitting in Coffee Club at The Hyperdome at Loganholme watching as the main automatic sliding doors remained almost permanently open, letting in 36 degree heat, as people walked in and out.
All it would have taken was to add a short passage with another set of doors and the heat entry could have been massively reduced. That would have significantly reduced the shopping centre's power bill to run its air-conditioning, and made it more pleasant for shoppers. But it's easier to just put up a poor design and the centre passes the extra electricity cost to the shopkeepers who add it to their prices, so the shoppers pay for poor design.

Another example is insulation. Many places have none. Most have a poor quality insulation because it's cheaper. Few have high quality insulation. We got some of the best stuff and put it in the ceiling and walls at Maleny and the difference was remarkable, both for heat and sound insulation. It has greatly reduced the need for aircon.

Not a clever country.

[DiscoMick]

Tesla big battery is holding its own in a burgeoning energy storage market

Tesla big battery is holding its own in a burgeoning energy storage market | Giles Parkinson | Technology | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/feb/18/tesla-big-battery-is-holding-its-own-in-a-burgeoning-energy-storage-market?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[Zeros]

The market for renewables is so skittish that Tesla offers its home battery with or without AC DC inverter for the same price. Yet change is inevitable. ‘Time-shifting’ is here.

The sooner we embrace the rapid shift to renewable energy the better for the planet and the sustainable supply of power post-fossil fuel. It’s been on the horizon for a long time. There’s no turning back.

I’m interested in building off grid in the next year.

[DiscoMick]

Battery banks should be in every suburb and town to store locally generated power locally, which would prevent blackouts.

[Eevo]

Battery banks should be in every suburb and town to store locally generated power locally, which would prevent blackouts.

sounds good. you paying for them?

[Ferret]

sounds good. you paying for them?

Community battery banks are under trial in WA by Western Power without upfront costs to the customer.

Bank from your own PV system during the day and redraw up to 8kWh of power / day any time after 3pm. Cost is $1/day. No idea how that compares with the cost of conventionally generated and delivered power.

PowerBank trial to revolutionise bulk battery storage in WA homes (https://www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au/Pages/McGowan/2018/10/PowerBank-trial-to-revolutionise-bulk-battery-storage-in-WA-homes.aspx)

[DiscoMick]

Sounds good. I expect eventually there will be battery banks in every electricity sub-station. It should really stabilise the network.
I think the way forward is to decentralise generation and storage while connecting the networks better so power can be moved around as required.

[Eevo]

without upfront costs to the customer.



no such thing. user always pays. the cost is just hidden.

[Ferret]

Lets wait to see how the trial goes first.

Of course I have no doubt if it is not a success the advocates will say the trail is flawed and if it is a success the detractors will say the trial is flawed.

[DiscoMick]

The Tesla battery in SA is already a success and being copied.

[Homestar]

Battery banks should be in every suburb and town to store locally generated power locally, which would prevent blackouts.

Yep, localised storage and generation would improve overall grid reliability no end. It's being looked at by most players at the moment. Cost is a factor as mentioned - you can't just bung them in without considering overall cost of the entire grid and maintenance, etc. it will happen though. Like anything in this field slower than we'd all like.

[Ferret]

The Tesla battery in SA is already a success and being copied.

The business model behind the WA trial is different. To get anything out of the WA bank you personally have to put something in. Don't believe you can get out more than what you put in. Your 1$ buys you storage capacity, not power. At least that's the way I understand it, could be wrong.

[DiscoMick]

The UK may be in a mess over Brexit, but at least it's government is moving ahead with offshore wind power.
Government throws its weight behind offshore wind power expansion

Government throws its weight behind offshore wind power expansion | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/mar/07/government-throws-its-weight-behind-offshore-wind-power-expansion?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[DiscoMick]

What better replacement for dirty Hazelwood than a windfarm?

What better replacement for dirty Hazelwood than a windfarm? | Simon Holmes a Court | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/commentisfree/2019/mar/29/hazelwood-windfarm-promises-green-shoots-in-a-coal-valley?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[DiscoMick]

So I've seen two new Nissan Leaf EVs in the last three days.

[Homestar]

Here’s something that fits right in with the title of this thread...


https://youtu.be/p4Qhr_LLoJ0

[DiscoMick]

How many petrol engines vehicles caught fire in the world yesterday? I don't know, but I bet it's more than one.

[Homestar]

Well that’s the thing. Tesla engineers are flying out there right now as a parked Tesla has never caught fire before, only ones being driven usually. How many petrol vehicles that had been parked up for hours like this Tesla had, caught fire yesterday?

As for ICE vehicles being driven - well, more Fords in Australia probably caught fire yesterday than all the Teslas ever put together! 😆

But again, you jump to the wrong conclusions when I post things like this - you assume I’m in favour of ICE vehicles over EV which I’ve stated before isn’t the case. Just because I post the link, doesn’t you automatically have to defend it or think that I am in favour of that side over another. 😉

[Slunnie]

Hmmm, the owner of my Local PO's Pruis caught fire in the garage also, but that was a while ago. He actually got burnt trying to get the thing out of the garage before everything burnt.

Just looking at renewables. Seems for a home kit, solar over wind is the way to go! $$$

[manic]

In context of fire risk.

Diesel is hard to accidentally ignite, petrol is not. So ICE vs EV is not a good start for comparison.

Compared to diesel cars, evs that have massive lithium battery packs are more volatile and dangerous by far.

When the Tesla pack ignites it surrounds the entire car with intense flames which are almost impossible to extinguish. The ferocity of a 100kwh lithium battery fire is next level! What makes things worse is that these cars have no mechanical linkage on the door handles. If the electrics are out you cannot open the door to help the occupant - even if you could get to it. And it's not easy to get out either when systems fail, the car can lock you in.


We might expect these things to happen in severe impact accidents but how could a parked Tesla, that is not even charging, explode? It's a worrying development.

When it comes to using lithium batteries for home storage - I would place them in an isolated outhouse!!

[DiscoMick]

Well that’s the thing. Tesla engineers are flying out there right now as a parked Tesla has never caught fire before, only ones being driven usually. How many petrol vehicles that had been parked up for hours like this Tesla had, caught fire yesterday?

As for ICE vehicles being driven - well, more Fords in Australia probably caught fire yesterday than all the Teslas ever put together! [emoji38]

But again, you jump to the wrong conclusions when I post things like this - you assume I’m in favour of ICE vehicles over EV which I’ve stated before isn’t the case. Just because I post the link, doesn’t you automatically have to defend it or think that I am in favour of that side over another. [emoji6]No worries, just putting it in perspective. Q is why was the battery faulty?

[ramblingboy42]

I can't recall fully , but when I did my airframe course with the RAAF, they focussed a little on what , if I can remember , was called "thermal runaway" , where for no significant reason the batteries in the aeroplane would go into meltdown causing fires etc.

Isolation of batteries after aircraft was shutdown became an important after flight check.

Possibly with the increase of battery powered vehicles this may become a necessity.

[Eevo]

No worries, just putting it in perspective. Q is why was the battery faulty?
probably cause tesla made it using dreams and false hope.

[Homestar]

Found this very interesting. Actual Statistics analysis, Engineering and Math to see what’s happening in one State with plenty of Sunshine.


https://youtu.be/h5cm7HOAqZY

[grey_ghost]

Thanks for posting - a very interesting video.

I guess some people don’t want to hear that there still isn’t a 100% renewable solution...

[ramblingboy42]

Thanks for posting - a very interesting video.

I guess some people don’t want to hear that there still isn’t a 100% renewable solution...

you're right there.

I don't know if there ever will be....

currently many alternate energy production sources don't compliment each other , some areas have large solar farms but no wind and vice versa.

I dont think very many new hydro schemes will be built, the best are already there. environmental issues now as well plague damming rivers.
.

Pumped hydro has a good future if companies and governments give max consideration to their location. eg there are some very deep pits in WA that could have solar and wind on their perimeters to power pumps for night hydro generation. there are a number of mineshafts in Broken Hill go 2 miles deep if someone wants to use them . You could have multi stage generation with that depth . That town is forging ahead in extremely reliable wind/solar generation , they would love the extra employment that pumped hydro would bring.

the networks/electricity grids are all over the country now so thats not an issue.

we have a good opportunity for geothermal as well , one has failed at Innamincka , but lessons are learned, there is a lot of hot rock down in the ground in this country.

at the moment there are still many options available for using fossil fuels including gas.....if we bought some of the exported gas back and converted some of our coal fired power stations to gas we could , for a while hold off the inevitable shutdowns that are quickly going to occurr , which inconvenience many people. Jobs will not dry up , I think, but will be available in different areas and workers will have to move to follow the work. Maybe fi/fo will be a permanent fixture in the working mans life.

when and where I grew up many of my friends fathers worked out of town and only came home from time to time during the year. It was accepted practise and no one complained (within limits). This may occurr again as major areas of employment change as the industrial giants close and reopen in different areas.

At some stage in the very forseeable future coal WILL be stopped. By then the big companies will have already made their plans and put a lot into production. It's going to be very interesting to see what they do.

[speleomike]

> ....if we bought some of the exported gas back ....

If I remember correctly it was a 30 year contract to supply gas. To buy that back we would have to offer a price that they could not refuse, and make Australia a laughing stock :-) I was astounded at the time (5 years ago?) that Australian companies and the Govt signed such a long term deal at the then current gas prices.

Mike

[DiscoMick]

Should I buy an electric car? All you need to know about prices, technology and range

Should I buy an electric car? All you need to know about prices, technology and range | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jun/23/should-i-buy-an-electric-car-all-you-need-to-know-about-prices-technology-and-range?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[Pickles2]

Should I buy an electric car? All you need to know about prices, technology and range

Should I buy an electric car? All you need to know about prices, technology and range | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jun/23/should-i-buy-an-electric-car-all-you-need-to-know-about-prices-technology-and-range?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)
Mate, I reckon YOU should definitely buy one,...gotta remember, a very well known person said that their batteries could be recharged in 8 minutes,...so what's holding you back?!
You mightn't believe me, but I do believe there is a future for these cars, but I don't believe that they are fully sorted yet.
Regards, Pickles.

[scarry]

Should I buy an electric car? All you need to know about prices, technology and range

Yes,but you might need a few more solar panels though,depending on how much you use it.

I wonder what the Govt is going to do about the fuel excise they will eventually miss out on if Ev's become popular?

They will miss out on the GST as well.

They harp on that the excise,which is a huge amount of $, is used for road funding.

So the taxes need to come from road users,no matter what type of vehicle uses them.

[Homestar]

Yes,but you might need a few more solar panels though,depending on how much you use it.

I wonder what the Govt is going to do about the fuel excise they will eventually miss out on if Ev's become popular?

They will miss out on the GST as well.

They harp on that the excise,which is a huge amount of $, is used for road funding.

So the taxes need to come from road users,no matter what type of vehicle uses them.

Yep, which is why we'll see a KM based road tax come in at some point - it's already being discussed - my only issue with this is how they keep it fair based on country versus city where country drivers have to drive more KM than their city counterparts - if they get it wrong, it could hit those country folk a lot more than the fuel excise currently does. As for EV's - yep, I'd like one - no I won't buy one yet - I keep looking at my old Range Rover as a candidate for a weekend EV run around - wouldn't need more than 150KM or so if I did that which would be easily obtainable. Just need to save up some dollars again - and finish about 10 other projects first...

[grey_ghost]

Only 10 projects? I rekon double that! [emoji3][emoji6]

[PhilipA]

Well there is already a road usage tax in Sydney of typically at least $100 per week for Western, North Western residents. It is called “tolls”.
Can you imagine the outcry if another Federal tax was added.
Sydney is about 20% of Australia.
regards Philip A

[scarry]

Well there is already a road usage tax in Sydney of typically at least $100 per week for Western, North Western residents. It is called “tolls”.
Can you imagine the outcry if another Federal tax was added.
Sydney is about 20% of Australia.
regards Philip A

But they will need something,fuel excise is about 41cents/litre,plus GST for those that can't claim the GST back.
And it goes up year on year.

Just imagine the screaming from the Ev brigade if they suddenly taxed them higher with rego or whatever,than ICe's.

Remember the Govt is broke,and wont want to miss out.

This is one reason they probably aren't keen to subsidise EV's,they are losing out everywhere.

[JDNSW]

A complication is that fuel excise is a federal tax - and any feasible replacement for it in EVs would have to be a state tax. Best of luck on getting states to all agree to collect money for the Commonwealth, or to refer powers to the Commonwealth.

The powers of the Federal government to tax are limited, and historically states have been very reluctant to assist (and the Commonwealth has also been very jealous of state attempts to trespass on their powers, for example in state attempts to emulate excise a couple of decades ago.

Certainly, the states could impose an annual tax or a mileage tax on EVs, to make up for the loss in excise - but why would they? That is the Federal government's problem, and they have neither the power nor the mechanism (vehicle registration) to do it.

[goingbush]

EV rego is $100 cheaper annually too. (in Victoria at least) VicRoads tell me its a "green Incentive" . How is it an 'incentive' if people don't know about it .

NewZealand have it all sorted, They don't pay Excise on Diesel over there , Diesels over 3500kg pay a RUC tax (road User Charge) done by a gps tag system , its fair and it works , they are implementing same for EV's to begin after 2021.

https://www.transport.govt.nz/multi-modal/climatechange/electric-vehicles/

[PhilipA]

Anyone noticed that wind energy in Australia is currently running at 16% and has been below 20% of capacity since 9AM?
I bet the old coal power stations are running flat out to keep the lights on and more importantly to keep the heaters heating.
Regards Philip A
So much for the wind is always blowing somewhere.

[350RRC]

Anyone noticed that wind energy in Australia is currently running at 16% and has been below 20% of capacity since 9AM?
I bet the old coal power stations are running flat out to keep the lights on and more importantly to keep the heaters heating.
Regards Philip A
So much for the wind is always blowing somewhere.

AFAIK one unit at Yallourn is a bit sad , about 26% of Vic coal fired generation and will be out till summer.

Coal generation making wind look good?

DL

[biggin]

I think you’ll find that 4 units at Yallourn make up about 26% of Vic coal fired generation.
I’m sure your post makes sense to some.

[DiscoMick]

Or gas plants might make up the shortfall.

[JDNSW]

EV rego is $100 cheaper annually too. (in Victoria at least) VicRoads tell me its a "green Incentive" . How is it an 'incentive' if people don't know about it .

NewZealand have it all sorted, They don't pay Excise on Diesel over there , Diesels over 3500kg pay a RUC tax (road User Charge) done by a gps tag system , its fair and it works , they are implementing same for EV's to begin after 2021.

https://www.transport.govt.nz/multi-modal/climatechange/electric-vehicles/

NZ does not have states!

[trout1105]

Or gas plants might make up the shortfall.

Or Nuclear power as coal is old tech and dirty and gas is rapidly becoming to expensive and is also a finite resource.

[PhilipA]

I just had another look at the output and wind was around 6% at 5 PM yesterday.

It is 36% now so poor old coal will have to spin reserve or shut down gen sets.
.
How much backup must the system have to cover peak demand time when you can only rely on the wind proportion to cover 6% of capacity.

It boggles the mind that the wind promoters are allowed to sell anything they produce but have no responsibility to provide electricity 24-7.

This should have been written into the original legislation but then nobody would have invested in wind to get the subsidies would they. Money for jam.

Regards Philip A

[DiscoMick]

It's a market. Any generator can bid into the market. Lowest bid wins.

[Eevo]

It's a market. Any generator can bid into the market. Lowest bid wins.


not really. its quite a complex bidding market

lets say you and i are generators. they need 2 units of power

you bid 30$ for 1 unit of power and i bid 35$ for one unit for power.

we both get paid 35$ each.

[350RRC]

I just had another look at the output and wind was around 6% at 5 PM yesterday.

It is 36% now so poor old coal will have to spin reserve or shut down gen sets.
.
How much backup must the system have to cover peak demand time when you can only rely on the wind proportion to cover 6% of capacity.

It boggles the mind that the wind promoters are allowed to sell anything they produce but have no responsibility to provide electricity 24-7.

This should have been written into the original legislation but then nobody would have invested in wind to get the subsidies would they. Money for jam.

Regards Philip A

State owned entities that had responsibility for generation, distribution and retail (and redundancy planning) were sold off.

Its open slather these days.

DL

[PhilipA]

Wind energy 6.1% at 3PM 10/9/2019 for entire east coast.
what was that about the wind always blowing somewhere, in this case probably too hard.
Regards PhilipA

[DiscoMick]

Canberra will be home to one of Australia's biggest batteries as ACT weans off fossil fuels
Canberra will be home to one of Australia's biggest batteries as ACT weans off fossil fuels - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-12/canberra-to-house-one-of-australias-biggest-batteries/11505528)

[Slunnie]

I just had another look at the output and wind was around 6% at 5 PM yesterday.

It is 36% now so poor old coal will have to spin reserve or shut down gen sets.
.
How much backup must the system have to cover peak demand time when you can only rely on the wind proportion to cover 6% of capacity.

It boggles the mind that the wind promoters are allowed to sell anything they produce but have no responsibility to provide electricity 24-7.

This should have been written into the original legislation but then nobody would have invested in wind to get the subsidies would they. Money for jam.

Regards Philip A

Thats a part of the way energy production needs to evolve. Rather than slagging it off, people should be celebrating that fossil fueled power plants were able to be relaxed for a period of time. Same with Solar, if the sun is shining, then thats great if they can back off the power plants through the day. Its still a win for the air that people breath.

[NavyDiver]

Surf and Turf (http://www.emec.org.uk/research/hydrogen-projects/) [biggrin] First hydrogen from tidal was 2017.

[DiscoMick]

Low-carbon energy makes majority of UK electricity for first time

Low-carbon energy makes majority of UK electricity for first time | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/25/low-carbon-energy-makes-majority-of-uk-electricity-for-first-time?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[DiscoMick]

Renewables meet 50% of electricity demand on Australia's power grid for first time

Renewables meet 50% of electricity demand on Australia's power grid for first time | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/07/renewables-meet-50-of-electricity-demand-on-australias-power-grid-for-first-time?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[Eevo]

Renewables meet 50% of electricity demand on Australia's power grid for first time

Renewables meet 50% of electricity demand on Australia's power grid for first time | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/07/renewables-meet-50-of-electricity-demand-on-australias-power-grid-for-first-time?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

fro the article


Renewables maintained the 50% mark for only about 10 minutes and over the entire day contributed 31.2% of the electricity used across the five states.

i would like to see 50% when the wind isnt blowing and the sun isnt shining.

[DiscoMick]

That's like saying you'd like to see a coal power station operating when it's run out of coal. Pointless.

[Eevo]

That's like saying you'd like to see a coal power station operating when it's run out of coal. Pointless.


if we were running out coal every night, you might have a paint.

[Tombie]

Low-carbon energy makes majority of UK electricity for first time

Low-carbon energy makes majority of UK electricity for first time | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/25/low-carbon-energy-makes-majority-of-uk-electricity-for-first-time?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

£557 Million in subsidies to get to that and only a minuscule increase in renewable energy supply. No noticeable decrease in Nuclear or convention generation either which suggests increased energy consumption.

[DiscoMick]

Green power fills half of Australia's biggest energy grid for first time
Renewable energy supplies more than half of Australia's national electricity market for first time - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-07/half-of-biggest-electricity-market-supplied-by-green-energy/11680766)

[Tombie]

Green power fills half of Australia's biggest energy grid for first time
Renewable energy supplies more than half of Australia's national electricity market for first time - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-07/half-of-biggest-electricity-market-supplied-by-green-energy/11680766)

10 minutes.

I can run at 100km/h - for the first step...... [emoji41]

[scarry]

Green power fills half of Australia's biggest energy grid for first time
Renewable energy supplies more than half of Australia's national electricity market for first time - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-07/half-of-biggest-electricity-market-supplied-by-green-energy/11680766)

Sure, thats a step in the right direction,but an average or a graph, over 12 months,would give a much better idea of the real statistics.

[Tombie]

Reality for the wind farms around us - when peak power is required - high demand, high temperatures - they are either parked due to the excessively high winds and doing nothing or it’s dead still and they’re doing nothing.

The solar farm going in may be more useful, it’s destined to primarily supply power to the Blast Furnace, BOS and Caster.

[Arapiles]

I just had another look at the output and wind was around 6% at 5 PM yesterday.

It is 36% now so poor old coal will have to spin reserve or shut down gen sets.
.
How much backup must the system have to cover peak demand time when you can only rely on the wind proportion to cover 6% of capacity.

It boggles the mind that the wind promoters are allowed to sell anything they produce but have no responsibility to provide electricity 24-7.

This should have been written into the original legislation but then nobody would have invested in wind to get the subsidies would they. Money for jam.

Regards Philip A


Wind is subsidised to the tune of about $1b per year, through RETS, but coal is subsidised much more. Even the proposed government support for just the Adani mine (which needs it because it is otherwise what we call "unbankable") would be higher than that.


The IMF estimates that annual energy subsidies in Australia total $29 billion, representing 2.3 per cent of Australian GDP. On a per capita basis, Australian fossil fuel subsidies amount to $1,198 per person.

Global fossil fuel subsidies reach $5.2 trillion, and $29 billion in Australia | RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/global-fossil-fuel-subsidies-reach-5-2-trillion-and-29-billion-in-australia-91592/)


And then there's this:

https://www.odi.org/sites/odi.org.uk/files/resource-documents/12912.pdf


Key findings• Support for coal mining and coal-fired power production is a recurring theme in statements fromAustralia’s government.• Australia remains one of very few Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Developmentmember states promoting investment in new domestic coal-fired power production and expandingboth thermal and coking coal mining for export.Prominence of fossil fuels and subsidy phase-out commitments• Despite strong government support for coal mining and coal-fired power, no new coal-fired plant hasbeen commissioned in Australia in almost a decade and 10 coal-fired plants have closed in the pasteight years.• Over this period, Australia has installed over 17 gigawatts (GW) of renewable electricity capacity(Quong, 2019), largely driven by market forces rather than by government policy to transition awayfrom coal.• Australia still obtains 85% of its electricity from fossil fuels, with coal alone accounting for 64%(IEA, 2019).• As a member of the G20, Australia has committed to the phase out of inefficient fossil fuel subsidiesover the medium term, as agreed in 2009 (G20, 2009). As a signatory of the Convention onBiological Diversity (Aichi Target 3), it has also committed to phasing out environmentally harmfulsubsidies, including those to fossil fuels, by 2020 (UN, 1992). But the government continues toprovide significant support towards the production and consumption of all fossil fuels and fossil fuelpowered electricity.

[PhilipA]

Gosh, that report is not biassed! Sarc
who decides what the cost of air pollution is?
who decides the mortality from air pollution?
This is just gobbledegook.
How about they count the mortality from cold weather if there were no pollution caused by coal heaters that warm houses in China in winter?
How about they offset any cost by considering the 40 percent increase in plant growth from increased co2?
regards PhilipA

[DiscoMick]

Gosh, that report is not biassed! Sarc
who decides what the cost of air pollution is?
who decides the mortality from air pollution?
This is just gobbledegook.
How about they count the mortality from cold weather if there were no pollution caused by coal heaters that warm houses in China in winter?
How about they offset any cost by considering the 40 percent increase in plant growth from increased co2?
regards PhilipADidn't you read it?
The International Monetary Fund calculates those things, based on information published by governments.
I assume the ABS probably collects our information, using internationally agreed methods. The ABS has a high reputation for the quality of its data.

Our mortality rate from air pollution is 2.6 per 1000 deaths, which is relatively low.

The future of energy production will be different to the past. We are moving from centralised, government-owned systems based on dirty processes to a decentralised system in which numerous producers bid to supply into a national market. Currently, renewables have the lowest operating costs because their fuel sources - solar and wind - are free. Batteries will store surplus energy for release when it is needed, which is already happening. Gas is cheaper than coal to it will progressively provide baseload power as coal stations wear out and shut down. No one will finance new coal stations because they will become stranded assets in the future.
That's the reality.

[JDNSW]

Perhaps should be pointed out that the fossil fuel "subsidies" are probably more than offset by the royalties paid for their production - which represent a major part of some state budgets, and a significant part of the federal budget. Not to mention fuel excise.

[Eevo]

Didn't you read it?
The International Monetary Fund calculates those things, based on information published by governments.

you know the IMF's goal is to help the rich get richer yeah?

[PhilipA]

No one will finance new coal stations because they will become stranded assets in the future.
That's the reality.
Funny I know of 4 being planned at the moment.
I cannot say more as it was told in confidence.
But don't take everything you hear in media as true.

Regards PhilipA

[DiscoMick]

Do any of them have finance? That's the key.

[NavyDiver]

Of interest I think as I see local government, state not necessarily Feds leading the changes about to change

"Chief Scientist Alan Finkel will kick off the COAG energy council meeting - the only such gathering in 2019 - with a presentation on Australia's National Hydrogen Strategy (https://www.theage.com.au/national/battlelines-drawn-over-australia-s-hydrogen-fork-in-the-road-20191119-p53c0m.html), according to a copy of the agenda obtained by The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age."

With game changing bio gas use for carbon free production of hydrogen being one of my mad investments I note coal bulls getting upset with Vic "Coal on 'life support': unions demand closure deal at Yallourn (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/coal-on-life-support-unions-demand-closure-deal-at-yallourn-20191118-p53bpz.html)"

A some papers I just received re 50+ Hydrogen trains needs a French friends help which I am lucky to have happily.

COAG energy council meeting will be entertaining as I think competition between states is assured. WA with billions in the game already seems to be best place for this I think.

[DiscoMick]

I can't post it here because it is political, but The Guardian has a story about the leaked agenda for the COAG meeting.
Basically, the feds are trying to get support for their ineffectual emissions reduction fund, but the states are demanding federal funding for their power generation projects.

[bsperka]

Only thing the feds care about a lot is that the budget gets into surplus. Although that serms to be changing a little bit. No energy policy, unless it's about coal, no climate change policy, unless it includes coal. Laughed at the SA battery solution.
And btw from a leading economist "the only reason for a budget surplus is to slow the economy in order to control inflation".

[JDNSW]

The reason for a budget surplus is fundamentally to avoid getting back into the "recession we had to have", which was the result of deficit plus high interest rates leading to a ridiculous proportion of federal revenue going into servicing debt. (And Australia got of lightly compared to some other countries!)

With the current very low interest rates, plus sluggish economy, there is a very good case for downgrading the priority of a surplus.

[DiscoMick]

Particularly if the money is spent on productive nation building projects which grow the economy.

[DiscoMick]

Low-carbon energy makes majority of UK electricity for first time

Low-carbon energy makes majority of UK electricity for first time | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/25/low-carbon-energy-makes-majority-of-uk-electricity-for-first-time?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[PhilipA]

You have to subtract at least 10% from the "renewables" and maybe add to coal seeing DRAX produces 10% of UK electricity from woodchips imported from the USA . Maybe they should be called "pre coal" .
The idea that woodchips are renewable is pretty contentious as it takes about 50 years to regrow the trees.
Funny how this is glossed over.

Regards PhilipA