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loanrangie
1st March 2019, 03:59 PM
Decided to take the plunge and fitted a 7" Android Eonon head unit using an aerpro fitting kit. BT, WiFi,GPS, reversing camera were all big pluses as well as loading apps like GAP . sounds great and with 32gig I can fill it with music.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190301/02e78093af792bb122c9ccc46d8e408e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190301/ad4386b2ba5b01e841ad9e3f69ffba2f.jpg

SeanC
1st March 2019, 04:45 PM
Triple J. Someone has good music taste. Do you have a part number. Went to the Eonon website but there was no unit specifically for D3/4.

loanrangie
1st March 2019, 06:58 PM
Triple J. Someone has good music taste. Do you have a part number. Went to the Eonon website but there was no unit specifically for D3/4.

Its a universal unit, just the fascia that is vehicle specific . Model is GA2175, was going to get the GA2170 (4gig ram, 8 core cpu) but they were sold out during the sale when i bought mine.
Fascia kit is from Aerpro and not cheap at @ $185 but you get everything required including canbus SWC compatible harness, cost me $400 for the lot.

https://www.eonon.com/Android-Car-GPS/2-Din-GPS-Navigation/New-Android-8-1-2GB-RAM-Quad-Core-Processor-Head-Unit-1024-600-HD-Universal-Navigation-GPS-Radio-Double-DinCar-Stereo.html

148871
(https://www.eonon.com/Android-Car-GPS/2-Din-GPS-Navigation/New-Android-8-1-2GB-RAM-Quad-Core-Processor-Head-Unit-1024-600-HD-Universal-Navigation-GPS-Radio-Double-DinCar-Stereo.html)

SeanC
1st March 2019, 07:26 PM
Its a universal unit, just the fascia that is vehicle specific . Model is GA2175, was going to get the GA2170 (4gig ram, 8 core cpu) but they were sold out during the sale when i bought mine.
Fascia kit is from Aerpro and not cheap at @ $185 but you get everything required including canbus SWC compatible harness, cost me $400 for the lot.

https://www.eonon.com/Android-Car-GPS/2-Din-GPS-Navigation/New-Android-8-1-2GB-RAM-Quad-Core-Processor-Head-Unit-1024-600-HD-Universal-Navigation-GPS-Radio-Double-DinCar-Stereo.html

148871
(https://www.eonon.com/Android-Car-GPS/2-Din-GPS-Navigation/New-Android-8-1-2GB-RAM-Quad-Core-Processor-Head-Unit-1024-600-HD-Universal-Navigation-GPS-Radio-Double-DinCar-Stereo.html)Thanks for that. It looks good and would be a much needed upgrade.

LRD414
2nd March 2019, 05:41 PM
Any loss of factory functions? Does the Gap iiD app display on the head unit?

Scott

loanrangie
2nd March 2019, 06:39 PM
Any loss of factory functions? Does the Gap iiD app display on the head unit?

ScottOnly the clock, yet to load the gap app but don't see any reason why it won't work.

Chops
3rd March 2019, 07:30 AM
Triple J. Someone has good music taste. Do you have a part number. Went to the Eonon website but there was no unit specifically for D3/4.


He really listens to Kiss101,, he's an old softy for smooth old music [wink11]

JJJ is just for our benefit to look like he's "in the groove" so to speak,, [bigwhistle]

loanrangie
3rd March 2019, 08:52 AM
He really listens to Kiss101,, he's an old softy for smooth old music [wink11]

JJJ is just for our benefit to look like he's "in the groove" so to speak,, [bigwhistle]Haha, not by choice but if the women's want something else its there.

loanrangie
3rd March 2019, 02:52 PM
Just went for a drive to test out the GPS after i loaded IGO Nextgen and the latest Aus map, sat acquisition is fast . Surprisingly i can listen to music while the gps is running and still got a pommy chick telling me i'm over the speed limit.[bigwhistle]
In the first pic in my first post you can just make out the GPS antenna taped in the cubby hole, wifi antenna is also there.

Aussie Jeepster
3rd March 2019, 03:38 PM
do the steering wheel controls still work?

loanrangie
3rd March 2019, 03:43 PM
do the steering wheel controls still work?If I had them they would, next job on the list.

Aussie Jeepster
3rd March 2019, 04:14 PM
If I had them they would, next job on the list.
I got mine on ebay from Germany - plug and play!

Brendan1477
5th March 2019, 09:44 PM
Could you run HEMA maps on there?
Cheers

loanrangie
5th March 2019, 10:24 PM
Could you run HEMA maps on there?
CheersIf there is an android app then yes.

Chops
6th March 2019, 09:01 PM
If there is an android app then yes.

I do believe there is.

SeanC
9th March 2019, 07:12 PM
If I had them they would, next job on the list.

So you would recommend the system?

I upgraded to steering wheel audio controls. Pretty simple except the video I watched (Powerful UK) had a single airbag release behind the steering wheel at the top but mine has one either side of the steering wheel.

Installed. All working fine. Decided to drive D3 to work the next day. Got out on the highway a good song came on. Let’s crank up the volume. Push push push... Nothing!! Start to curse then next thing the vehicle drops back a gear or two and takes off like a scalded cat. As it happens my daily drive has the audio controls in the same place as the D3’s cruise control. Don’t know what I set it at. But at 2kph per push. Well, let’s just say I did a lot of pushing.

”Excuse me sir. Any reason you were speeding? Sorry officer I was trying to turn the volume up”

Do you think he would have let me off?

But now I’ve got the button thing worked. Very convenient. Worth the money.

loanrangie
9th March 2019, 07:22 PM
So you would recommend the system?

I upgraded to steering wheel audio controls. Pretty simple except the video I watched (Powerful UK) had a single airbag release behind the steering wheel at the top but mine has one either side of the steering wheel.

Installed. All working fine. Decided to drive D3 to work the next day. Got out on the highway a good song came on. Let’s crank up the volume. Push push push... Nothing!! Start to curse then next thing the vehicle drops back a gear or two and takes off like a scalded cat. As it happens my daily drive has the audio controls in the same place as the D3’s cruise control. Don’t know what I set it at. But at 2kph per push. Well, let’s just say I did a lot of pushing.

”Excuse me sir. Any reason you were speeding? Sorry officer I was trying to turn the volume up”

Do you think he would have let me off?

But now I’ve got the button thing worked. Very convenient. Worth the money.Definitely, its like having a built iPod. The sound quality is better than expected and the tuner is great. GPS is fast and I have 2 USB inputs for files or to charge a phone.
It didn't have any navigation programs installed but already had IGO and latest oz map.

SeanC
9th March 2019, 10:39 PM
Is the Aerpro facia kit model FP9290K?

loanrangie
10th March 2019, 08:13 AM
Is the Aerpro facia kit model FP9290K?Correct.

Aussie Jeepster
11th March 2019, 11:09 AM
Some time ago, I tried replacing the factory radio in my D3SE with a "better" aftermarket unit.
Trying to get all the cables/plugs etc in behind the unit was impossible, so it went back.
How does your unit go regarding space behind it?
I'm looking at getting the wifi "aerial" thingy with it as well.
The price doesn't worry me, just the fitting in!
Alan

loanrangie
11th March 2019, 11:30 AM
Some time ago, I tried replacing the factory radio in my D3SE with a "better" aftermarket unit.
Trying to get all the cables/plugs etc in behind the unit was impossible, so it went back.
How does your unit go regarding space behind it?
I'm looking at getting the wifi "aerial" thingy with it as well.
The price doesn't worry me, just the fitting in!
AlanPlenty of space, in fact I'm thinking of getting an ssd HDD to fit behind and use the 3rd USB port.

SeanC
2nd April 2019, 05:44 PM
Only the clock, yet to load the gap app but don't see any reason why it won't work.

Did you get the GAP App working? Have downloaded it but won’t recognise the tool. Have no problem with recognising both Apple and Samsung devices.

Thanks

SeanC
2nd April 2019, 06:51 PM
Some time ago, I tried replacing the factory radio in my D3SE with a "better" aftermarket unit.
Trying to get all the cables/plugs etc in behind the unit was impossible, so it went back.
How does your unit go regarding space behind it?
I'm looking at getting the wifi "aerial" thingy with it as well.
The price doesn't worry me, just the fitting in!
Alan

Hi Alan. I didn’t think I was going to be able to get the new head unit in. I ended up pushing cords and connectors up into the aircon vent spaces on both sides. There was still room for the the aircon vents to fit back in. I had to re-route the GPS aerial, 2x USB and reversing camera cables up and across the air vent space. Had them routed lower and couldn’t get the head back in. Lonerangie must have some sort of Tardis deal going on back there if he can fit a solid state HDD there. I would think that the wire harnesses would be similar even though I have an Xtrons and he has Eonon. What’s the secret??

Solved. The Eonon is 126mm deep while the Extrons is 156mm.

So If looking around I would set max depth at 156mm and that is a real squeeze.

101RRS
2nd April 2019, 06:55 PM
On a side question - my brothers Mazda 6 has an android radio fitted and looks original - nice fit. It is about 10" though and a very nice size.

The one fitted in this thread is 7" and the fitting kit is for this size - can you get fitting kits for larger size android radios. Looking at the 7" fitted there is enough space around it for a larger unit but I am not sure if fitting kits are made for larger units.

Anyone know?

Thanks

Garry

discorevy
2nd April 2019, 07:10 PM
Only the clock, yet to load the gap app but don't see any reason why it won't work.

gap iid requires bluetooth version 4 or higher to work.

loanrangie
2nd April 2019, 07:17 PM
On a side question - my brothers Mazda 6 has an android radio fitted and looks original - nice fit. It is about 10" though and a very nice size.

The one fitted in this thread is 7" and the fitting kit is for this size - can you get fitting kits for larger size android radios. Looking at the 7" fitted there is enough space around it for a larger unit but I am not sure if fitting kits are made for larger units.

Anyone know?

Thanks

GarryThe larger screen units are still a standard double din size so you could fit one.

SeanC
2nd April 2019, 07:24 PM
On a side question - my brothers Mazda 6 has an android radio fitted and looks original - nice fit. It is about 10" though and a very nice size.

The one fitted in this thread is 7" and the fitting kit is for this size - can you get fitting kits for larger size android radios. Looking at the 7" fitted there is enough space around it for a larger unit but I am not sure if fitting kits are made for larger units.

Anyone know?

Thanks

Garry

Xtrons make a couple of universal double din units with a 10” screen for $400. The screen isn’t flush but protrudes out. The screen can be tilted for best viewing angle. Just depends if you like a flush fit or not. Head unit is 153mm deep so should fit just.

101RRS
2nd April 2019, 08:44 PM
I know you can buy larger units but can you buy a fitting kit for a D3/RRS ie the surround panel that will fit a larger screen - if so any links?

Thanks

Garry

loanrangie
2nd April 2019, 10:27 PM
I know you can buy larger units but can you buy a fitting kit for a D3/RRS ie the surround panel that will fit a larger screen - if so any links?

Thanks

GarryIts the same kit, screen just protrudes from the unit instead of sitting flush.

loanrangie
7th June 2019, 12:38 PM
Got the day off so thought it was time to tackle the reverse camera install, did a lot of researching as i didn't want to use the reverse light as a trigger for the camera. An email to Aerpro confirmed that i should use both the adapter harness reverse trigger and the head unit reverse power lead so after a quick test i confirmed the camera worked with no other wiring required at the camera end.
Camera cable was a little short so i just used a 1m RCA cable i had and taped another single wire to it for the camera power extension, i ran the camera along the channel on the drivers side and up thru the trim into the rear pillar and up into the top of the tailgate.
I mounted the camera to the far right of the handle which gets it fairly close to central, thankfully i have a mitch hitch so the camera will pick this up easily.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190607/76d95b72d282e1887b6907854d19127e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190607/24c59f501dc2ec9c093a33d19f20922e.jpg

SeanC
7th June 2019, 04:22 PM
Didn’t even cross my mind that I have a rear wheel carrier until the camera arrived. “Doh!” Ended up mounting the camera on the far left of the handle. Can see the tow-ball fine (bottom right)but haven’t tried lining the trailer up yet....

theelms66
7th June 2019, 09:01 PM
Didn’t even cross my mind that I have a rear wheel carrier until the camera arrived. “Doh!” Ended up mounting the camera on the far left of the handle. Can see the tow-ball fine (bottom right)but haven’t tried lining the trailer up yet....Is it just me or is the view back to front..

SeanC
7th June 2019, 09:52 PM
Is it just me or is the view back to front..
Good catch. Was playing around with the the settings (reversing X mirror) the other day. Forgot to change it back. When you pointed it out I started thinking “ surely it hasn’t been like that since I installed the camera and not noticed”. That would be embarrassing and lining up the trailer even more of a challenge.

loanrangie
12th June 2019, 12:21 PM
I had to check mine and yes the image was reversed also.

loanrangie
1st July 2019, 06:29 PM
Fitted steering wheel audio switch panel and mapped the buttons to the head unit functions, each button can have 2 functions with either a short a long press.
Phone buttons also work which i didn't expect but its a handy feature, i did a video review for the seller and they sent me a free dash cam so i will attach that when i get a chance.

152339152340

SeanC
2nd July 2019, 03:59 PM
Fitted steering wheel audio switch panel and mapped the buttons to the head unit functions, each button can have 2 functions with either a short a long press.
Phone buttons also work which i didn't expect but its a handy feature, i did a video review for the seller and they sent me a free dash cam so i will attach that when i get a chance.

152339152340
Did you get 2 functions mapped onto the volume buttons?
Was nice to be able to map phone answer and hang up.
I didn’t expect that.

Did you watch the Powerful UK video on installing the audio controls?
I went looking for the single airbag removal latch on the top behind the steering wheel only to finally work out there were 2 on the left and right side of the steering wheel. Looks like yours is the same. First thought was the part wasn’t compatible.

loanrangie
2nd July 2019, 05:59 PM
Did you get 2 functions mapped onto the volume buttons?
Was nice to be able to map phone answer and hang up.
I didn’t expect that.

Did you watch the Powerful UK video on installing the audio controls?
I went looking for the single airbag removal latch on the top behind the steering wheel only to finally work out there were 2 on the left and right side of the steering wheel. Looks like yours is the same. First thought was the part wasn’t compatible.I found a post on here from a few years ago, haven't mapped a long press for volume or ff buttons yet.

Mickyg
26th July 2019, 11:39 AM
Well I got inspired by Loanrangie’s upgrade so I bought the Aerpro kit and a cheap head unit. It all works fine but for one bug....I can hear a fan running in the cabin after ignition is off, I’m sure I haven’t heard it before the instal????https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190726/dc4c2ee157c3038a168f20b75309b444.jpg

Tombie
26th July 2019, 11:59 AM
Fan is likely cooling on the new head unit.

loanrangie
26th July 2019, 12:12 PM
When i was looking i noticed some had fans, my Eonon just has a large heat sink incorporated into the rear of the case.

Mickyg
26th July 2019, 12:36 PM
Not sure but I went back 10min later and it had stopped. Great upgrade for the lo line units adds so many features.

loanrangie
26th July 2019, 12:41 PM
Not sure but I went back 10min later and it had stopped. Great upgrade for the lo line units adds so many features.

Definitely one of the best upgrades i have done, even better than a hiline HK unit. I'm also considering adding a 2nd screen in the top of the dash where the factory nav screen goes.

shack
24th February 2020, 04:50 PM
Definitely one of the best upgrades i have done, even better than a hiline HK unit. I'm also considering adding a 2nd screen in the top of the dash where the factory nav screen goes.So is this unit still going along nicely?

I've been through 3 double din android units on ours now over a few years and I'm getting annoyed...
admittedly warranty has helped, but then of course I've ended up with the same unit again!

Do you know if its fast enough for HEMA and OziExplorer ? I have both on mine but it's very laggy.

Cheers
James

loanrangie
25th February 2020, 10:12 AM
So is this unit still going along nicely?

I've been through 3 double din android units on ours now over a few years and I'm getting annoyed...
admittedly warranty has helped, but then of course I've ended up with the same unit again!

Do you know if its fast enough for HEMA and OziExplorer ? I have both on mine but it's very laggy.

Cheers
James

no issues at all, love it. I added a 2nd screen and will adding another front camera just for the sake of it.

SeanC
25th February 2020, 03:21 PM
No problems with my Eonon. Great upgrade.
Had problems with the display on 2 Extron units.
Think it was due to the very tight fit.
What was the problem you were having and what brand unit?

shack
26th February 2020, 08:16 AM
No problems with my Eonon. Great upgrade.
Had problems with the display on 2 Extron units.
Think it was due to the very tight fit.
What was the problem you were having and what brand unit?Mine was also tight fit, they are quite a deep unit, and I don't like the angle of the screen.

The brand is Hizpo... I'm sure no one has heard of them!

I've had 2 units stop transmitting sound, as in no sound output at all, and the third unit occasionally goes into bootloop.

I've got reversing camera, tpms, gps and all work well.


Cheers
James

Cambo_oldjaguar
28th February 2020, 07:58 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200228/62a970369d27ea099343669f35d6bfcb.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200228/f1ac861cf7fa3b6b99d447a12fcd20a7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200228/048ddc7482e2d7e1cbfbb830e7124cba.jpg

I did this one today, Android multimedia screen with CarPlay dongle from Aliexpress.

Has more features than anyone will ever use.

Fit almost perfectly in the empty hole (after some cutting).

Direct plug in harness piggy-backed off the head unit.

Was $420 incl the CarPlay dongle.

(USB sockets for the cigarette lighters bought separately)

loanrangie
29th February 2020, 03:12 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200228/62a970369d27ea099343669f35d6bfcb.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200228/f1ac861cf7fa3b6b99d447a12fcd20a7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200228/048ddc7482e2d7e1cbfbb830e7124cba.jpg

I did this one today, Android multimedia screen with CarPlay dongle from Aliexpress.

Has more features than anyone will ever use.

Fit almost perfectly in the empty hole (after some cutting).

Direct plug in harness piggy-backed off the head unit.

Was $420 incl the CarPlay dongle.

(USB sockets for the cigarette lighters bought separately)


If the factory head unit is working then this is the way to go, mine wasn't so it was a no brainer to replace it.

shack
29th February 2020, 07:32 PM
Our factory head unit was fine, but we don't use cd's, and we have a garmin gps in the top cubby hole which works better than any android offline navigator we have tried. I have bought several over the years with not much joy really, particularly in the country regions.

So I removed the original head unit and put it there. I have thought about going back though...

Cheers
James

Bulletman
29th February 2020, 08:14 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200228/62a970369d27ea099343669f35d6bfcb.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200228/f1ac861cf7fa3b6b99d447a12fcd20a7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200228/048ddc7482e2d7e1cbfbb830e7124cba.jpg

I did this one today, Android multimedia screen with CarPlay dongle from Aliexpress.

Has more features than anyone will ever use.

Fit almost perfectly in the empty hole (after some cutting).

Direct plug in harness piggy-backed off the head unit.

Was $420 incl the CarPlay dongle.

(USB sockets for the cigarette lighters bought separately)

Is that factory unit the Hi Line - my poverty pack doesn't have that unit , wondering if you can adapt to the base unit as well ???...

Cheers Bulletman

Cambo_oldjaguar
29th February 2020, 08:26 PM
If the factory head unit is working then this is the way to go, mine wasn't so it was a no brainer to replace it.
True, but i still don't like having the screen down low, having it up high is much better if you're looking at a map and looking at the road at the same time.


Our factory head unit was fine, but we don't use cd's, and we have a garmin gps in the top cubby hole which works better than any android offline navigator we have tried. I have bought several over the years with not much joy really, particularly in the country regions.

So I removed the original head unit and put it there. I have thought about going back though...

Cheers
James
I think offline navigation units are on borrowed time tbh, using a phone with Apple Maps, Google Maps, Waze, Sygic Nav or the TomTom app via CarPlay or Android Auto, you have live traffic, accurate ETA's, camera locations, incident warnings, plus the maps are always up to date, voice commands Hey Siri or Hey Google, it's hard to find something offline that will do all that.

That Android unit was installed in the D3 purely to provide Apple CarPlay & a reverse camera, and since it has an AM/FM/DAB tuner built in the factory radio is not used at all actually, just left on AUX.


Is that factory unit the Hi Line - my poverty pack doesn't have that unit , wondering if you can adapt to the base unit as well ???...

Cheers Bulletman
Yes it will work with the Base factory audio too. The connectors where it plugs in are the same.

Bulletman
29th February 2020, 08:38 PM
True, but i still don't like having the screen down low, having it up high is much better if you're looking at a map and looking at the road at the same time.


I think offline navigation units are on borrowed time tbh, using a phone with Apple Maps, Google Maps, Waze, Sygic Nav or the TomTom app via CarPlay or Android Auto, you have live traffic, accurate ETA's, camera locations, incident warnings, plus the maps are always up to date, voice commands Hey Siri or Hey Google, it's hard to find something offline that will do all that.

That Android unit was installed in the D3 purely to provide Apple CarPlay & a reverse camera, and since it has an AM/FM/DAB tuner built in the factory radio is not used at all actually, just left on AUX.


Yes it will work with the Base factory audio too. The connectors where it plugs in are the same.

Can you give me some idea on the model you bought ? I am a bit of a dinasour when it comes to this sort of thing.

Bulletman

Cambo_oldjaguar
29th February 2020, 08:50 PM
Was this one

AU $357.90 26% Off | Android 10 Car Radio Multimedia Player NAVI For Land Rover Discovery 3 LR3 L319 2004~2009 Stereo GPS Navigation AudioWifi OBD2
Buy Products Online from China Wholesalers at Aliexpress.com (https://a.aliexpress.com/_d6dMlIv)

Plus the dongle from the same seller

AU $60.37 | carplay
Buy Products Online from China Wholesalers at Aliexpress.com (https://a.aliexpress.com/_d7ExobB)

They didn't include the app for the dongle but I already had a copy from other jobs.

The USB sockets I had on the shelf already, came from eBay.

Reverse camera is another eBay item, the ones that go in the numberplate lamp.

loanrangie
1st March 2020, 08:00 AM
Was this one

AU $357.90 26% Off | Android 10 Car Radio Multimedia Player NAVI For Land Rover Discovery 3 LR3 L319 2004~2009 Stereo GPS Navigation AudioWifi OBD2
Buy Products Online from China Wholesalers at Aliexpress.com (https://a.aliexpress.com/_d6dMlIv)

Plus the dongle from the same seller

AU $60.37 | carplay
Buy Products Online from China Wholesalers at Aliexpress.com (https://a.aliexpress.com/_d7ExobB)

They didn't include the app for the dongle but I already had a copy from other jobs.

The USB sockets I had on the shelf already, came from eBay.

Reverse camera is another eBay item, the ones that go in the numberplate lamp.

Good that its a properly integrated system, if this was around 1 year ago i would have bought it. I have fitted a 2nd screen in that location so its easy to see the map.

matt_ali_walsh
12th April 2020, 02:31 PM
Cambo that's brilliant - thank you! What software did you need to make the dongle talk to the unit? The USB ports look really neat - is one of them a female - female pass through to get to the dongle? I can't seem to find any on Ebay...

Cambo_oldjaguar
13th April 2020, 07:48 AM
The app for Apple CarPlay & Android Auto dongle is called "Autokit"

You can download it here http://121.40.123.198:8080/autokit/autokit.apk

The USB sockets are just from eBay, they are "USB flush panel extension cables"

These aren't the ones I used, but similar PAC Audio 1ft Universal USB Extension Kit - Stinger Australia (https://stingeraustralia.com.au/product/pacusbdma1/)

With that style it's necessary to cut the back out of the cigar lighter and glue the USB into place, you can also get larger ones that will completely fill the original hole.

Narangga
27th May 2020, 07:38 PM
I think offline navigation units are on borrowed time tbh, using a phone with Apple Maps, Google Maps, Waze, Sygic Nav or the TomTom app via CarPlay or Android Auto, you have live traffic, accurate ETA's, camera locations, incident warnings, plus the maps are always up to date, voice commands Hey Siri or Hey Google, it's hard to find something offline that will do all that.


For those who live in the 27% of Australia's landmass that has mobile coverage maybe, but where I use and need my offline maps that's the only thing available.

However based on where you live your comment is definitely valid.