Series Gearbox

[whitehillbilly64]

Series gearbox, with no number I can find so far.
FRC on gearbox casing.
Any Ideas.
Thanks.

whitehillbilly

[Cap]

None...[bigwhistle]

[gromit]

I think the position of the number changed and if you mix & match gearboxes & transfer boxes you either end up with two numbers or no number !
There was somthing like that on Wallit, I think it has no number.

Look at the 'sticky' at the top....Series Gearbox ID


Colin

[whitehillbilly64]

????

[whitehillbilly64]

A quick question.
If a mark is put at TDC on the input shaft at the bell housing,
And a mark put at TDC on the hand brake drum.
4 gear is 1:1 ratio ?
The marks should both be at TDC after one complete rotation ????
Thanks.

whitehillbilly

[pop058]

4th is 1 to 1 IIRC, but you will need to take into account any ratio change through the transfercase.

[JDNSW]

And transfer high range is 1.148:1. High range remained the same throughout Series production, but low range changed at Series 2a gearbox suffix B to C, from 2.888 to 2.350 at the same time that main gearbox ratios changed to retain the same maximum reduction in 1st-low, but with wider spaced gears in the main gearbox.

This means you can get lower low range gears by combining the later main box with the earlier transfer case.

[whitehillbilly64]

So here it is.
Carton of beer or so later,
Modified to give higher gear in 4th, by Full Boar 4X4 Toowoomba. They still operate, I think, so will ring on Monday and see if they Still have mods done 10 years ago, on the computer still. ($2,000)
I think it may be a later S3, S2 gear lever. Lever sits further forward when in reverse position, than in 1 or 3 position.
Has syncro in 1st and 2nd, confirmed when I took the top cover off.
Alloy welded number on top cover. 01-81 or 18-10 depending where you read it from.
Strange JJ mark on gearbox and top cover.
All comments welcome.

whitehillbilly

[whitehillbilly64]

Few More pics and numbers.
Cant find stamped gearbox no. where else to look.

whitehillbilly

[whitehillbilly64]

Also noted 3 types of sealant used.
White, original ?
Black. bell housing and Gearbox to Transfer case
Blue, top cover, square inspection cover, 1/2 inch bolt heads and rear plate, where overdrive/PTO would be fitted.
Doesn't look like Transfer and other box have been separated. Will look for sealant when I turn the box over and look underneath.
Will an engine stand take the weight of the box, if I bolt the bell housing to it ????
Just remembered I have an Inspection camera, the kids bought me so I could look inside Gilberts Chassis rails. [bigsmile1]
Thanks.

whitehillbilly

[JDNSW]

Weight on engine stand - it weighs less than the engine, and is shorter, so unless it is a pretty flimsy stand, should be OK.

Definitely a S3 box - the slave cylinder location and the Leyland logo confirm this.

[whitehillbilly64]

Hi.
could someone please explain the difference between this ?

GENUINE LEYLAND REAR MAIN SHAFT BUSH BEARING LAND ROVER SERIES 1948-84 PART 217478 | Land Rover Treasure Shop (https://www.landrovertreasureshop.com/product/leyland-rear-main-shaft-bush-bearing-land-rover-series-1948-84-part-217478/)

and this ?

Mainshaft Rear Bearing Housing Bush for Land Rover Series Gearbox 1948-84 217843 | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mainshaft-Rear-Bearing-Housing-Bush-for-Land-Rover-Series-Gearbox-1948-84-217843/283357149738?hash=item41f966fa2a:g:ZPwAAOSw-tdcT~WF)

New bearing/bush didn't come with full rebuild kit, unless its the same as the main shaft front one in the plastic cage.
Thanks.

whitehillbilly

[JDNSW]

Should be 217853 according to my parts book - and the difference is that this is standard for the V8, optional for all other models, 217478 being standard - I presume that it is a heavier duty bearing.

Or perhaps they mean 90217843 which is the housing it runs in - the two together are 230696. Further edit. Confirm that - the second one is the bush or housing, 90317843, the first is the roller bearing.

[whitehillbilly64]

Update.
Gearbox is 1:1 mark on input shaft and rear main shaft gear, mark lines back up after one revolution in 4th gear.
Rear main shaft gear std 27 teeth.
Fitted, nice shiny 31 tooth one.
So other gears in transfer must be different.
Rang Full Boar.. she said they still do kits. Shaft ? Machined to suit ?
Any thoughts ?

whitehillbilly

[whitehillbilly64]

Gears.
Time to pull off transfer sump cover.
wouldn't changing the Transfer gears Make everything a higher gear ratio ? Including Low range.
Thanks for your comments.

whitehillbilly

[JDNSW]

I have no experience with changing the transfer case ratio, but there are the following possibilities.

1. If only the input gear is changed, the low ratio is also changed, but importantly, the position of the intermediate gear must be changed. This involves welding and machining on the housing. I believe this is what is normally done.

2. It would be possible to retain the position of the intermediate shaft, but this would require all three constant mesh gears to be replaced. Low ratio may or may not be changed, but if it is not, then the low ratio gear would need to be changed as well, so four new gears would be needed.

[67hardtop]

Just a note on the jj marks. The gearbox housing and the top gear selector housing are a matched pair. They are machine matched much the same as main crankshaft bearing caps. So the covers are not interchangeable. Thats why the g/box and cover were marked so they were returned to each other.

[whitehillbilly64]

Thanks for the replies.
More to come soon. Time to drain the oil and remove sump cover. [thumbsupbig]

whitehillbilly

[whitehillbilly64]

Correct John.
5mm

As per pic.
Intermediate gears.
44 (std 44) 22 (std 25)

High/Low gears
27 (std 31) 36 (std 36)

[whitehillbilly64]

solved [biggrin]
Ashcroft Transmissions (https://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/the-series-vehicle/high-ratio-transfer-case-kit.html)

whitehillbilly

[gromit]

You either have to supply a transfer case for them to modify or you could get an engineering company locally to re-position the shaft in your transfer case.
There are some pictures in my SIII C240 Isuzu thread.

Colin

[whitehillbilly64]

How do you Find the High Gear Transfer Box, Colin ?
Do I put the Ashcroft one I have in Gilbert ????
Or STD with the Fairey overdrive.
Thanks

whitehillbilly

[JDNSW]

I think Colin has the high ratio box with the Isuzu engine, so his experience is not really relevant.

My experience has been that while the higher ratio may be useful for a swb, I would not bother for a lwb with the four cylinder engine. I have an overdrive on my lwb, but I rarely use it. Two reasons for this - it is noisy, and the four does not have sufficient power to pull the higher mass with overdrive except on dead flat ground.

I would also question the need for higher gearing. Running 7.50 tyres the 2.25 engine is quite happy at the vehicle's maximum speed (around 110kph), and the engine noise is way below other (mostly wind since I replaced the bar treads) noise. I can see where it would be useful if you had a swb running on 6.00 tyres, and certainly if you have a different engine (such as Holden) that is less than happy at high rpm.

Having experience with the overdrive, I agree that if you need a higher gearing, the high ratio box is definitely superior to the overdrive, and the use of high ratio diffs. The only advantage of the overdrive is the ability to split gears, plus I find it a slight advantage where I need to drive in low range,but come to a short stretch where I can go faster than is feasible in 4L - a lot easier to change in and then out of overdrive than to change transfer ratios on the move. The main advantage of higher ratio diffs is how easy and cheap it is to convert (unless you have a salisbury rear), but then you have the speedo issue.

[B.S.F.]

If you want to use your Series Land Rover for outback trips, there is always a chance that someone other than you has to work on your car. I'd use only parts that any mechanic can look up in a L/R parts or optional equipment catalogue.
.W.

[whitehillbilly64]

Thanks.
So, my Fairey thats in good condition would be the better option ???? On My SWB.
Yes standard parts Is a good thought.

whitehillbilly

[B.S.F.]

These are the essential parts you need to get you going again after you've removed your overdrive. Strictly speaking you don't even need a new nut. I carry these parts with me at all times..W.

[gromit]

I think Colin has the high ratio box with the Isuzu engine, so his experience is not really relevant.



The power output of the 2.4 NA Isuzu isn't far off that of the Land Rover diesel.
When building up the vehicle I had warnings that it would be over-geared but this didn't prove to be the case.

As for carrying standard parts.....there is one gear in the high ratio transfer box which is unique to the conversion and of course the modified case.

In a 60kph zone it doesn't really like top gear, seems happier in 3rd but otherwise it has much 'longer legs' that my Series I. Easily holds 100kph on the freeway but does slow a bit on long inclines. If I had the standard ratio it wouldn't go as fast but I might be able to hold the speed better on hills.

Colin

[JDNSW]

Not so much the power output, but the rev range at which the engine is comfortable, and, probably necessary on low powered vehicles such as we are discussing, geared so that maximum power is developed at about the maximum speed the vehicle will comfortably go. Too low geared, you run out of revs before reaching the speed you could travel if lower geared, too high geared, you reach maximum speed before the engine reaches maximum power.

Much less of an issue with higher powered vehicles, where the maximum speed is well above a sensible speed for the vehicle anyway, and it is an advantage in a number of respects to have the gearing high enough that the engine produces the power needed to travel at a sensible speed with the engine well below maximum power revs.

Of course there are other aspects to it as well, like having the gearing low enough that you can drive in top gear at 50kph, as this is the most common speed limit for urban driving - my Isuzu County only barely meets this criterion.

Also, if you have lots of gears, the overall ratio is much less important - but with the Series we only have four in each range.

[gromit]

Not so much the power output, but the rev range at which the engine is comfortable, and, probably necessary on low powered vehicles such as we are discussing, geared so that maximum power is developed at about the maximum speed the vehicle will comfortably go. Too low geared, you run out of revs before reaching the speed you could travel if lower geared, too high geared, you reach maximum speed before the engine reaches maximum power.



John, I understand your points but a lot of UK users fit the High Speed Transfer Box without issue.
The only info I could find on AULRO mainly related to Holden conversions High Speed Series Transfer Case (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/18709-high-speed-series-transfer-case.html)

Overdrives are known to be fragile & often noisy. Changing the diff ratio also affects low range gearing. The HSTB raises the high range ratio but barely affects the low speed ratio.

Article here mentions the potential difficulty pulling away on a steep slope and sometimes needing a gear ratio between 3rd & 4th.
Ashcroft Transfer Kit (https://www.stumpie.com/tech/ashcroft/)

Happy with the ratio in Wallit (my C240 powered SIII) but I guess it's a compromise between a reasonable road speed, noise, economy and usability.

Colin

[B.S.F.]

whitehillbilly
Unable to text. Will send another PM later.
.W.

[JDNSW]

John, I understand your points but a lot of UK users fit the High Speed Transfer Box without issue.
.......

Colin

I suggest most UK owners have swbs, where most Australian owners have lwbs?

[gromit]

I suggest most UK owners have swbs, where most Australian owners have lwbs?

The gear ratio is the same so is it just the extra load you feel is an issue with a LWB ?

Interestingly the Isuzu C240 conversions by Dellow in Sydney were almost always in LWB's. This was probably due to the need to fit something for economical outback travel.
I remember Fred Smith telling me that my shorty should 'fly' which, relatively speaking, it does.
The motor in mine was from a LWB originally.


Colin

[JDNSW]

The gear ratio is the same so is it just the extra load you feel is an issue with a LWB ?

...


Colin

The 109 has an empty weight about 150kg more than the 88, and a payload about 450kg more, for a total of 600kg more or, to put it in perspective, about 25% more than the 88 GVM. Perhaps more important, it has about twice the load area, giving much more scope for overloading. And the 109 is 10cm higher, adding 5% to the frontal area and hence aerodynamic drag.

So it is mostly the extra load, although I am surprised that the 109 is only about 150kg higher empty weight than the 88.

A secondary effect is that the standard tyre diameter on the 109 is 31", where the standard on the 88 is 28", although these days it is usually at least 29", meaning that the 109 is effectively about 6% higher geared due to the tyres. (of course if you use 7.50 tyres on the 88, then there is no difference)

[gromit]

A secondary effect is that the standard tyre diameter on the 109 is 31", where the standard on the 88 is 28", although these days it is usually at least 29", meaning that the 109 is effectively about 6% higher geared due to the tyres. (of course if you use 7.50 tyres on the 88, then there is no difference)

My Isuzu powered shorty is running 7.50 x 16's and the HRTB isn't a problem so, potentially, it's only the weight difference in a LWB.

Colin

[JDNSW]

Yes, but the torque and power curves of the Isuzu are, I suspect, significantly different from either the petrol or diesel Rover engines. One of the key features of the Rover engine is its ability (even the diesel) to operate at high rpm (4,000rpm) without distress.

[gromit]

Yes, but the torque and power curves of the Isuzu are, I suspect, significantly different from either the petrol or diesel Rover engines. One of the key features of the Rover engine is its ability (even the diesel) to operate at high rpm (4,000rpm) without distress.

Seems the C240 gives 54Kw at 3,800 rpm. There are a number of variants of this motor, the ones fitted by Dellow were from the Elf truck.
Isuzu Elf - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isuzu_Elf)


Colin

[JDNSW]

One of the problems with this sort of discussion is that typically, all the figures we can get on an engine are the peak power and torque figures and what rpm they are at. The problem with this is that the driveability depends also on the shape of the curve, in other words, how sharp is the peak. And even where we have these curves, it is almost impossible to guess how different engines compare.

If you take the Rover engines, the petrol one has peak power at 4250 and peak torque at 2500, the diesel at 4,000 and 1750.

Since power is the product of torque and rpm, power increases with rpm from peak torque until the fall off in torque exceeds the increase in rpm, although for many diesels, the governed maximum rpm also represents the maximum power. For a petrol engine, the torque usually drops off due to breathing restrictions, so there is no definite maximum rpm unless this is imposed by valve bounce or ignition issues.

In the case of the Isuzu diesel in Colin's Landrover, the fact that the peak power is at 450 rpm or about 10% lower than the petrol engine suggests that it would benefit from higher gearing, especially since (with standard gearing) the maximum rpm is probably easily reached at a road speed that needs less than the maximum available power.

I hope this lot makes sense!

[whitehillbilly64]

Hi.
Thanks for the comments on the Ashcroft Kit.
I have to remove the Dreaded Output Shaft bearing.
Any one found an easy way to remove it ????
Have done one before using the Book, cold chisel method, but there must be an easier way ????

whitehillbilly

[gromit]

One of the problems with this sort of discussion is that typically, all the figures we can get on an engine are the peak power and torque figures and what rpm they are at. The problem with this is that the driveability depends also on the shape of the curve, in other words, how sharp is the peak. And even where we have these curves, it is almost impossible to guess how different engines compare.

If you take the Rover engines, the petrol one has peak power at 4250 and peak torque at 2500, the diesel at 4,000 and 1750.

Since power is the product of torque and rpm, power increases with rpm from peak torque until the fall off in torque exceeds the increase in rpm, although for many diesels, the governed maximum rpm also represents the maximum power. For a petrol engine, the torque usually drops off due to breathing restrictions, so there is no definite maximum rpm unless this is imposed by valve bounce or ignition issues.

In the case of the Isuzu diesel in Colin's Landrover, the fact that the peak power is at 450 rpm or about 10% lower than the petrol engine suggests that it would benefit from higher gearing, especially since (with standard gearing) the maximum rpm is probably easily reached at a road speed that needs less than the maximum available power.

I hope this lot makes sense!

John,
I understand the theory but would like to hear from someone with a HRTB fitted to a LWB to get 'real life' feedback as I don't think it would be as problematic as you suggest.


Regards,

Colin

[JDNSW]

I am primarily basing my conclusions on the use of the overdrive in my 109. Basically, I no longer use it, the engine simply does not have enough power to keep up to 100 in most conditions in overdrive, where it does without the overdrive.

[whitehillbilly64]

So, Back to the,
Dreaded Output Shaft bearing.
Any one found an easy way to remove it ????

Also discovered From the reverse pinion and roller bearing in the gear, and 1st/2nd Syncro, its a later than A suffix, because teeth are different.
So is Gilberts Gearbox. Had a look. same set up.
Which is a bummer as bits ordered were for a suffix A, which it was thought be be some time ago, through forum discussion.
Guessing when the Gear box is Ribbed, its a later Suffix., B or C.
Thanks.

whitehillbilly

[ian4002000]

if this is the bearing fitted into a blind hole i think the method is to fill the hole with grease and gently tap with a rubber mallet the shaft into the hole. This will force the bearing out after a few goes.

There are internal pullers available but grease is cheaper.

Ian
Bittern

[whitehillbilly64]

Number 2 In this image.

Land Rover Parts - TRANSFER BOX (https://www.britishautoparts.com.au/transfer_box)

Thanks.

whitehillbilly

[whitehillbilly64]

How much end float on the primary pinion. Manuals don't really give a figure. See different shims available.
Thanks.
Whitehillbilly

[whitehillbilly64]

Hi
All my manuals mention a Concave Shield in front of the primary gear, but behind the Bearing.
It Is missing on My 3, S3's Was this not fitted to later gearboxes ????

whitehillbilly