Pending alternator problem/failure pre-warning info request

[drivesafe]

Hi folks and this is a request for some feedback from D3 and D4 customer with my dual battery systems fitted to their D3s and D4s.


A quick explanation and this will give you the reason for this request.


3 years ago I introduced the latest versions of my SC80 and DT90 dual battery isolators.


The DT90 comes standard with an In-Cab module and while the standard SC80 does not, a special version of the SC80, called an SC80-BM which is only supplied with my D3-DS and D4-5S kits, are supplied with the In-Cab module.


The In-Cab module serves a number of functions, but I am only interested in the Battery Capacity indicator.


How this works, is the In-Cab module has a Red and Green Bi-Colour LED in it, and when camping, the In-Cab module indicates the state of charge of the batteries by giving between 1 to 5 short Red pulses and then one long Green pulse.


The more Red pulse, the higher the state of charger, with 2 pulses indicating the batteries are somewhere between 50% and 60% ( between 12.06v and 12.20v ), and 5 pules indicating the batteries are somewhere between 85% and 100% ( between 12.45v and 12.70v ).


But when you are driving, because the voltage is over is over 12.70v, the LED gives a constant DULL Green glow.


This was the design intention, but something has now happened at least 4 times, that I am aware of, that is behind this request.


I have been contacted 4 times, the last just this weekend gone, where customers have experienced the Red LED pulsing a number of times, followed by a long Green pulse, while they were driving.


One of the previous events was found to be caused by a well known D4 software issue which, in this case was resolved when the D4 had a software upgrade done by the dealership.


But the other three occasions appear to have been a precautionary warning of a pending alternator problem/failure.


The latest one that occurred over the weekend, happened in real time.


The owner, who is on a holiday trip, rang me and told me that over the previous few days, while driving, the Red LED would start pulsing and continued to do so for some time, then the Green would go back to a constant DULL glow.


The Red LED had just started to give 5 short pulses while he was driving so he rang me while the Red was pulsing.


He told me he was getting 5 short Red pulses followed by the long Green pulse.


He decided to pullover so he could concentrate on our discussion and when he pulled over, with the motor still running but at idle, he told me he was now only getting 2 short Red pulses followed by the long Green pulse.


He did not have a multi meter with him but was going to get a cheap one to use to investigate the cause of the low voltage.


In two of the previous EVENTS, the owners had to have work done to their alternators.


My guess is that this latest event is again down to a faulty alternator.


Now to my request.


If any D3 or D4 owner, with one of my kits fitted, has had a similar event, could you let me know about the event, as I have never come across this type of situation myself.

[DieselLSE]

OT I'll admit. But mine just glows red. Always. Doesn't dull or change colour. Mind you, I've tucked it away in the engine bay, so I only look at it occasionally, but even when I've tested it, it just glows red.

[drivesafe]

OT I'll admit. But mine just glows red. Always. Doesn't dull or change colour. Mind you, I've tucked it away in the engine bay, so I only look at it occasionally, but even when I've tested it, it just glows red.
Hi Diesel, can you phone me on 07 5569 2557 (tel:07 5569 2557), day or evening.

It sounds like you In-Cab module is wired incorrectly, so call me and we can sort it out.

[DieselLSE]

Hi Diesel, can you phone me on 07 5569 2557 (tel:07 5569 2557), day or evening.

It sounds like you In-Cab module is wired incorrectly, so call me and we can sort it out.
I thought that may be the case. Let me check it first. From what you say above, I will look at running a separate led and put it somewhere discrete on the dash. Seems like you may have inadvertently built in a "pending alternator failure" warning system!

[Mog60]

I have sent you a PM Tim with my experiences relating to this issue.

[Ferret]

Wondering whether people have been seeing cases of this. See the battery voltage and current, this is while driving.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/l319-discovery-3-and-4-a/141731d1530252702-charging-weirdness-gap-screenshot_20180629-113404.jpg

Was discussed in this thread previously (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l319-discovery-3-and-4-a/263025-charging-weirdness.html)

Since then I have not seen a occurrence until a couple of weeks ago when driving I noticed something similar. Pulled over, did a reboot and drove away, all good and has been good since then.

Was it the reboot that fixed it or just and engine on / off. Don't know.

I don't understand it. I don't now think it associated with a new battery. I can't reproduce it on demand and if it's a signal of a pending alternator failure then mine has been pending failure since June last year.

[Mog60]

Hi Tim,
I would have contacted you about a year and a half ago over this "in cab module flashing on my SC80 whilst driving issue". When I talked to you on the phone we did a few checks and a hard reset and also on your recommendation I got the dealer to do the software upgrade that you mentioned, but it did not make any difference to the flashing.

I have always noticed that the in-cab module flashes through the red green cycle when driving after a really long drive (the number of flashes in the sequence varying). I assume at this point the batteries have had a chance to really charge up fully. The same is true but it happens more quickly, if I have been charging up the batteries with my Ctek 10 before a drive.

I have put this issue down to the smart charging system of the car simply letting the voltage go down below the level at which your in-cab module is set to flash, so it sees the batteries as not being charged. You had also discussed the system self-check, where it runs the battery down for a while. If this is the case, it must check itself a lot. As you would expect under braking or overrun the smart charge system does its usual of charging the batteries and the flashing stops.

I have learned to live with this, as it does not seem to be causing me an issue, other than the distraction of the in-cab module led flashing, which I now cover with a small blob of blutac when needed. I also have a little cig lighter voltmeter and can see the voltage changes and know that the in cab module will be flashing when it drops below a certain level. From memory I think this is about 12.6 V. I do hope that it's not an indication that the alternator is a problem. The issue has gone on as long as I have had your unit with no real dramas. I just put this down to the strange smart battery charging system of my D4 and the level at which the in cab module is set to start flashing at.

[drivesafe]

When I introduced the latest version of the SC80-BM and the DT90 isolators, while I did expect to get occasional feedback where the alternator in D4s would run low for short periods of time, this is not what is happening in the cases where there may be a problem with the alternator.


The situation at the weekend is totally different.


The Red LED was giving 5 pulses while driving, this means the voltage at the BATTERIES, two of them, was already at as low as 12.45v, but immediately dropped to 2 pulses with the motor at idle, indicating the voltage of the two batteries had dropped to between 12.06v and 12.20v.


in a normal operation, while the batteries could drop to as low as 12.20v when at idle, this would take quite a few minutes at the quickest, not just a few seconds.


So there is every likelyhood that the D4 was already running on it’s batteries and the alternator was producing only a very small current output while the motor was at highway RPMs.


Those who have seen their Red LEDs pulse, did you notice how quickly or slowly the pulse count changed, up or down?

[WALRDS]

G'day Tim,

I just installed the Kit a few weeks ago and i am really happy with it so far.
I have not had the flashing which is the issue at hand but is it normal to have no LED lit at all while driving? In saying this there has been no issues with the system charging.

Thanks

[BushDisco]

Reviving this thread, I contacted Tim this week regarding two issues that seem related, first a bit of background and then a request to the group on cost.

discover is MY12 model HSE SDV6, 197k on the clock and well maintained. I’ve enjoyed it for around 3 ½ years now and had no issues other than this and a recent diesel tank sender fault.

I added the traxide 4S kit late last year plus a yellow top optima, and then replaced the cranking battery in August with a silver Exide AGM, the best I could find.

i don’t run a fridge or other loads apart from on bush trips, the car is used daily and drives at least an hour every day, mostly freeways, and I charge both batteries with a 20 A 8 stage charger once a month.

over the last few weeks the in cab module has been showing down to 2 or 3 red flashes in the morning, quickly changes to a dull red glow after a minute or so of driving. This last week however it’s been down to 1 red flash or 1 green flash very 2 seconds. I’ve played with storage vs shared mode but no impact to state of battery charge.

last few nights I’ve had car on charge nightly for at least 12 hrs, and tested batteries at various times, before starting, at idle, after a run, before and after charging etc. long story short the alternator is not charging batteries, batteries sit between 12.6 and 12.3 after a charge then a drive and makes no difference is engine is on or not.

i disconnected the optima and it held is charge of 12.8 for 24 hrs so reconnected to help engine battery. No noise or smell from alternator, no warnings in cab.

now the strange bit, in cab module is possessed, whilst driving I get all of the above, often many times in a 30 minute drive, 2 red flashes, 5 red flashes, dull green, 7 or even 8 red flashes, and then quickly back to 5 then 2 or 3 red flashes. This cycle can all occur within a 5 minute period.

ive resigned myself that the alternator is likely stuffed so called a local Melbourne Landry agent (not a dealer) who occasionally work on my car, $1200 for a new alternator, plus fitting. Gulp...[tonguewink][bawl]

so finally my question, has anyone else experienced this (other than what’s been reported to Tim above who was very helpful on the phone), and is $1200 for the alternator alone reasonable? A quick web search yielded 150 amp OEM units for $450. I’m guessing the agent quoted a genuine one but the web ones available locally in Melbourne come with 5 year warranty.

thoughts?

[drivesafe]

Hi BushDsco, before you do anything, try discharging your batteries so they are at at least 12.2v or lower.

Then go for a drive and see if the voltage drops to to the point where the red LED flashes.

if both batteries are fully charged, the BMS may be deliberately running at lower voltages.

[gavinwibrow]

ive resigned myself that the alternator is likely stuffed so called a local Melbourne Landry agent (not a dealer) who occasionally work on my car, $1200 for a new alternator, plus fitting. Gulp...[tonguewink][bawl]

so finally my question, has anyone else experienced this (other than what’s been reported to Tim above who was very helpful on the phone), and is $1200 for the alternator alone reasonable? A quick web search yielded 150 amp OEM units for $450. I’m guessing the agent quoted a genuine one but the web ones available locally in Melbourne come with 5 year warranty.

thoughts?


If it comes to it, there were a couple of related threads a couple of months ago. My new alternator cost $660 in July ex Rovercraft in Perth and that seemed to be in the median of the range at that time. At the time the car was on just under 250K km

[BushDisco]

Hi BushDsco, before you do anything, try discharging your batteries so they are at at least 12.2v or lower.

Then go for a drive and see if the voltage drops to to the point where the red LED flashes.

if both batteries are fully charged, the BMS may be deliberately running at lower voltages.

Thanks Tim, I’ll give that a go tomorrow, although batteries have been on charger overnight so I don’t drop voltage too low and damage them.

[drivesafe]

Thanks Tim, I’ll give that a go tomorrow, although batteries have been on charger overnight so I don’t drop voltage too low and damage them.
You can safely discharge any battery down to 11.6v, and you will not only not damage them, but you will still be able to start your motor.

I suspect that because you are keeping your batteries fully charged, that BMS “think” they may be getting too charged while driving and is trying to correct the “problem”

This is an oversimplification of what might be happening but it may also indicate that nothing is wrong with your alternator, and this test should give some idea of the condition of your alternator, one way or the other.

[BushDisco]

So Tim may have nailed it. I left the disco off charge over the weekend and went for a couple of drives locally finishing Xmas shopping.

On both occasions the battery voltage was under 12.6 before cranking and didn’t improve after when running. I kept my cool even though I wanted to put it on charge ;) and left till Monday morning and the drive to work hoping it would still start.

Not only did it start, the alternator kicked in at around 14.64v and started charging the batteries, after a 30 minute drive charge rate was 14.4v.

Driving home was a repeat performance, alternator kicked in, charge rate at 14.4v, dull green light all the way home.

Too early to call, will report back next week but might have saved me a new alternator.

[Eric SDV6SE]

Rovacraft sells genuine Denso alternator for around 650. I woyld not be paying 1200 plus fitting. Agree that batteries need discharging too, for the alt to actually do some work. Sounds like you've got it sorted.

[101RRS]

The book says it is a 45min job to replace a alternator, so $1200 for the total supply and fit is a bit over the top.

[BushDisco]

The book says it is a 45min job to replace a alternator, so $1200 for the total supply and fit is a bit over the top.Agreed, especially when 1200 was part only..

[101RRS]

I replaced mine January last year. Pricing was between about $550 and $1200 for the same genuine item (note that some alternatives were the same price range).

Ashdown Ingram advised me they had 3 instock for just under $600 but when I went to collect it it was not a Denso but an OEX (ROC not PRC made). The guy could not understand what the issue was - to him they were all the same.

Being 4.30pm on a Friday and I needed the car I took the OEX (checking later that these had the same price range as the Denso).

Has been fine - no issues - took me about one and a half hours to fit - even had the correct pulley on it - seems to be an issue with some Denso and knockoffs that the pulley is wrong and you need to use your old one.

Garry