Bleeding 11" brakes

[Cap]

So I have read the many threads on bleeding brakes but still got an issue with my 11" brakes. The method i tries was typical, someone on the pedal applying pressure and then ill be cracking the nipple (we are still talking brakes [biggrin]). I also have a pump and have tried 'sucking' the fluid out via the nipple. This gave mixed results tho.

Issue i have is that the pedal still remains soft, and requires a few pumps to get it to where it should be. I use the brake switch on the junction as an indicator for pressure as the lights only come on after the 2nd or 3rd pump.

Now i have bled the system plenty and no air comes out... so why is the pedal still soft? Was wondering could the fluid be bypassing the piston seal, but if so then it shouldnt reach pressure at all, logically thinking. Or am I a wimp and havnet bled the system properly yet?

[whitehillbilly64]

I would imagine you haven't bled it properly.
You did adjust the brakes up first before bleeding ????
I bought a one person bleeder kit from supercheap.
seems to work well.

whitehillbilly

[Cap]

I adjusted the snails to allow for minimal piston movement, and then tried it again with them out. Just wondering why theres still air in when I bleed the system only fluid comes out. Ill have to give that single person bleed system a go then.

[Red90]

If it works after pumping, it is not air. The pistons are retracting. Most likely you have the shoes in wrong so the adjusters can’t work. It is easy to get them wrong.

[101RRS]

Sounds like to me that the shoes are not adjusted up first.

[Homestar]

Wind the adjusters out hard so the shoes are locked to the drums - check if there is pedal once you have done this - it will tell you if it's air or an adjustment issue.

[Homestar]

Also, if they are new shoes you'll almost certainly need to radius them to the drums - this isn't hard to do at home - I'll see if I can dig up the post I did when I last did this.

[JDNSW]

To amplify above - if you can pump up the brakes and the pedal is hard, not spongy, it is not a bleeding problem. If you can pump up the pedal so the brakes work but the pedal is spongy, you have a bleeding issue.

You may have both!

Possibly more common than air is the system are :- shoes incorrectly assembled, adjusters not staying put, drums out of tolerance, shoes not radiused to the drums (although unless badly out, you will get them to work, but frequent adjustment will be needed), drums out of round (I had a new one like this!), shoes not sitting straight (only early ones with adjustable steady posts), incorrect master cylinder pushrod clearance.

Note that if you really do have a bleeding issue, the system can be bled at any joint. clamp off all three flexible hoses. Confirm you have a solid pedal, bleed at joints as needed to get this, and if you still cant, fix the master cylinder issue - I have seen reports of faulty master cylinders. Then release on clampat a time and bleed that part of the system, again, using joints to bleed if necessary, but start at the bleeder.

Hope this helps - in over twenty five years running my 2a 109, I have never had issues with bleeding brakes.

[Cap]

Fantastic response all. Ill start with the brake shoes then, one wheel at a time. The symptoms are pump 2 or 3 times, each time the pedal travels less but still firm once under suitable pressure. When my wife was pumping the pedal, she did mention how at times it took only two pumps, then the next bleed it was back down to the floor again... very inconsistent.

Cheers,

[Red90]

Post a picture of each set of shoes with the drum off.

[1950landy]

Have you got the springs in the drums hooked up correct , if they are incorrect the pistons will come back too far . Also check the m/ c push rod is correctly adjusted , you need free travel so the push rod is not pushing on the piston blocking the inlet port. Buy your self a presure bleeder they work a lot better than other methods buy using tyre pressure to push the fluid through.

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

As an alternative to Red90's suggestion to Cap's post; could someone please post up a photograph of the front and rear brakes without the drums to show how the springs and shoes SHOULD be fitted CORRECTLY.. It seems that this is some information that the Operator's Manuals and YouTube clips consistently miss.

For example, one manual has the brake wheel cylinders for the front axle located at 9 and 3 o'clock. Each of the Land Rovers I have owned have the brake wheel cylinders located at 12 and 6 o'clock. I lost confidence in the manual after that.

There was a good UK site that explains trailing and leading edge brakes. Once I find the site again I will post it up.... found it ... Accessed March 26, 2019 from Land Rover FAQ - 109 rear brakes (http://expeditionlandrover.info/landRoverFAQ/FAQ_rearbrakes.htm)

Yes - I have the same issue Cap.

Kind regards
Lionel

[Aaron IIA]

Do you have a compression barrel master cylinder or centre valve master cylinder? The method of bleeding is different for each. Is your master cylinder horizontal or inclined from horizontal? If inclined, you can get a persistent air bubble in the master cylinder that is difficult to bleed out. A pressure weed sprayer makes a good pressure bleeder.

Aaron

[Red90]

Perhaps lets start by being clear about what is on your vehicle. Your signature says it is an 88". You are talking about 11" brakes, which don't come on an 88. There are different brakes fro different models and years, so you need to get specific as to what is on there and what it came from.

[Red90]

Terriann's page shows rear shoes that are used on long wheelbase Series 3 and Defenders. It, unfortunately does not clarify things because shoes you buy today have an even amount of friction material on them.

Try here for those: LWB (Series 3 through to 1993) Rear Drum Setup (http://alre.club/Forum/index.php'topic=1253.0)

Front brakes should be different, but you need to clarify what you have.

[Cap]

I do have an 88, but i placed the entire 1967 109 2.25 petrol 11" system (master cylinder incl) into the 88. So i havent mixed parts and was careful not to make any changes. New cylinders and pads are in.

Yesterday i removed both wheels and drums, checked shoes and snails and all adjusted fine. I can tighten snails to lock drums. Having the snails to a point where the pads start to drag made a bit of difference in the pedal, but still not right. Two to three pumps brings it as it should be, a firm pedal with about 1/3 pedal travel down. At the moment the pedal almost reaches the floor (full sweep) at first, second pump it goes 1/2 way the third 1/3 way.

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Ill post more pics up soon.

[incisor]

correct pedal adjustment makes a big difference as well so make sure you have that set as it should be

my 88 has the later and larger bore master cyl, 109 4cyl front brakes and std 88 rear brakes

it has better brakes than the 130 and pulls up in no time flat.

and luckily bleeds effortlessly on my inclined driveway, nose up

when i did the brakes up i went through 3 sets of shoes till i got a set that actually worked properly and were the right shape.

[Aaron IIA]

Is the pedal freeplay set appropriately? Try adjusting out all freeplay until the master cylinder has passed the return port. Then try pumping up the brakes. They should lock up with a hard pedal. Then back off the pushrod until the brakes are released.

Aaron

[JDNSW]

Ahave the pedal return spring fitted, and there is almost no free play on either the pedal pivot or the trunion that carries the pushrod. And that the pedal stop is correctly adjusted. Any of these will reduce the pushrod travel relative to the pedal.

[Cap]

What ill try to do is get a vid on what is going on here, hopefully makes sense. I spoke to a few others about this issue and they also are a little perplexed. Never had this issue before... mind you I never had four drums either [bigrolf]

[gromit]

Rub some chalk on the shoes, re-fit the drum and adjust the cams till it's dragging and turn the drum a few times.
Slacken off the cams and remove drum.

Where the chalk is removed is where the shoes are making contact with the drum. You may find it's only touching in one spot on each shoe so the shoes are flexing.
I had this on my Series I years ago and had to file the linings (fitting & re-testing multiple times) to get full contact.

It's possible (but expensive & time consuming) to set the linings up and machine to the correct profile but you really need them mounted on the backplate as they are machined. My FIL used to work in a brake company some years back and used to do this on shoes for vintage racers to guarantee full contact of the lining to get maximum braking force.

Where did you get the shoes ? They don't look Indian (**itpart/Bearmach).


Colin

[Cap]

Saga continues lol. So i again tried bleeding it, this time followed manual method...
1) slacken cam snails right off
2) conected hose to cylinder nipple and opened
3) pumped pedal, each stroke i pumped quickly
4) closed nipple when fluid went about 1/2 down the reservoir (about 4 pumps)
5) readjust cams until shoes starting to drag

No difference, did this for all 4 wheels, starting from closest to furthest (front right, front left, rear right, rear left) as manual states start from SHORTEST route first.

I also inspected the master cyl rod and pedal freeplay. To me the rod looks fully extended out as i pulled on the rod and there was hardly any more left, and yes i did slacken off the pedal stop bolt.

I guess next step is to do John's technique of clamping off 3 hoses to determine if any particular side has issue (front). Can i use a standard small C clamp for this with both faces clear of burs etc? Is there any possible damage to inside the hoses by squashing them given its not designed for this?

Failing all that ill do your trick Colin, see if shoes are the culprit. FWIW, I Googled this issue (pumping pedal) and looks like this is a common issue with bleeding brakes. So perhaps im not that incompetent after all [bigrolf]

[mick88]

I went trough a similar issue like this with an 88 with standard 10" brakes a while back when I was getting it ready for a RWC.
Normally I have never had any trouble getting a high/hard pedal. I think the fluid just ended up like a milk shake from all the pumping.
In the end I drained all the fluid out, then cracked all the bleed nipples a smidge and kept topping the master cylinder up every so often.
I do use DOT 5 Silicone brake fluid which can be more susceptible to aeration, but DOT 3 and 4 are not immune from it. The less hammering you have to do on the brake pedal trying to bleed the system, the less chance of aeration.
Like others such as Inc, Collin, Homestar, etc., have pointed out, firstly you need the shoes/linings radiused to the drums.

I know where you are coming from, it's bloody annoying and time consuming.

Good luck.
Cheers, Mick.

[bemm52]

Saga continues lol. So i again tried bleeding it, this time followed manual method...
1) slacken cam snails right off
2) conected hose to cylinder nipple and opened
3) pumped pedal, each stroke i pumped quickly
4) closed nipple when fluid went about 1/2 down the reservoir (about 4 pumps)
5) readjust cams until shoes starting to drag

No difference, did this for all 4 wheels, starting from closest to furthest (front right, front left, rear right, rear left) as manual states start from SHORTEST route first.

I also inspected the master cyl rod and pedal freeplay. To me the rod looks fully extended out as i pulled on the rod and there was hardly any more left, and yes i did slacken off the pedal stop bolt.

I guess next step is to do John's technique of clamping off 3 hoses to determine if any particular side has issue (front). Can i use a standard small C clamp for this with both faces clear of burs etc? Is there any possible damage to inside the hoses by squashing them given its not designed for this?

Failing all that ill do your trick Colin, see if shoes are the culprit. FWIW, I Googled this issue (pumping pedal) and looks like this is a common issue with bleeding brakes. So perhaps im not that incompetent after all [bigrolf]

Carlos I may be wrong here but I was led to believe shoes need to be locked onto drums with snail cams before bleeding is started

Cheers Paul

[gromit]

Carlos I may be wrong here but I was led to believe shoes need to be locked onto drums with snail cams before bleeding is started



Not normally needed. If correctly adjusted brakes should bleed OK.
Every 2-3 years I bleed the brakes on my fleet to replace the fluid, never lock the shoes onto the drums (but do take the opportunity to adjust correctly before bleeding).

Colin

[JDNSW]

.....

I guess next step is to do John's technique of clamping off 3 hoses to determine if any particular side has issue (front). Can i use a standard small C clamp for this with both faces clear of burs etc? Is there any possible damage to inside the hoses by squashing them given its not designed for this?

.....

I have some purpose made clamps for brake hoses (can't remember where they came from but it would have been one of the regular places like Supercheap, Repco etc). These clamp the hose between two curved 'anvils' with a radius of about 5-10mm. Although these are screw clamps, I have seen pictures of ones made from two 20cm lengths of 10mm steel hinged together at one end and with a ring that can be put over the other end to hold them together - they are used like a pair of pliers. I have also used vicegrip type clamps with rounded jaws intended to hold bits of steel together when building my house. I think the secret to avoiding damage is to not have sharp edges to the bits in contact with the hose, so a conventional G-clamp would not be suitable.

[Cap]

I tried both techniques, snails clamped close (but not locking shoes) and loose to allow the cylinders can 'pump' the air out.

As for the clamps, I have some small RHS with the rounded edges that I can use with grips then. This will provide a smooth profile on the edge as you state John.

Hopefully I can then narrow the problem to one area, or this doesnt change then it has to be the M/C. Ill report back with progress.

[Cap]

Its done! Ok so I thought more about it and came to conclusion that the pedal travel and subsequent pumps should be brake adjustment. So i went around and re-adjusted all 4 corners, and found the two rear brakes inner snails where not one click from tight (i think i may of missed these on previous adjustments). Adjusted these and now i have the travel on the pedal on the first press.

To say im over the moon is an understatement! Thanks again for all your posts, i certainly learned a lot and now should have no hassles in future.

[whitehillbilly64]

Good work.
Be easier next time [thumbsupbig]

whitehillbilly