Restructure & Redundancy

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

An organisation has used the opportunity of changed conditions in a new contract to trigger a restructure.

At a recent meeting the proposed new company hierarchy was displayed on a PowerPoint slide. A number of job titles did not transfer from the old hierarchy to the new one.

It is claimed that all positions across the branch of the company are open. If you want a job you have to put in an expression of interest.

If people apply for a job and they are unsuccessful at interview they will be made redundant and paid out accordingly.

If someone does not put in any expression of interest and does not have an interview this is considered as Voluntary Redundancy. A VR apparently is taxed at a higher or different rate than a forced redundancy is.

I would have thought that if a new company hierarchy did not include your former role than that person's job no longer existed - and it equated to a forced redundancy.


How much of a tax hit do you receive in a Voluntary Redundancy compared to a "Forced" redundancy?

The length of the former contract was 2 years so we are not talking about decades of accrued benefits.

By the way, none of the people in the discontinued roles were under any form of performance review. As far as they were aware their organisation was happy and satisfied with their performance over the previous two years. This included two annual appraisals without any peep of dissatisfaction regarding their performance been raised. They were in fact encouraged to "keep up the good work".

The other thing is that there are some people who have been under performance review and their job role is continuing. There are multiple people who have the same role; their numbers are going to thin out. The people under review now know that they have targets on their backs. It is not a very happy work place at the moment.

Kind regards
Lionel

[87County]

Sounds to me like a newspeak activity but they have possibly? had it cleared by their legals.

Is there any point in referring it ?

Unlawful termination | FWC Main Site (https://www.fwc.gov.au/termination-employment/unlawful-termination)

[weeds]

I would have thought that if a new company hierarchy did not include your former role than that person's job no longer existed - and it equated to a forced redundancy.




I always believed this to be the case as well...

[Eevo]

A VR apparently is taxed at a higher or different rate than a forced redundancy is.

hmm, ive never heard that before.

[Meccles]

American company by any chance?

[Lionelgee]

American company by any chance?

Nope. It is a dinky di Aussie one.

[grey_ghost]

Unfortunately I can’t answer the question, but I would play by their rules so that the employee gets the best possible outcome for themselves. It’s bull**** but I would do what’s right by yourself (despite the unfairness).

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

There is a possibility that it may affect the ability to claim Newstart. Apparently, the word "voluntary" means that the person elected to leave employment. Same thing in a certain department's eyes as people resigning. You have left a job by choice therefore you are not immediately eligible for Newstart. Plus, how many weeks pay-out you received as part of the settlement is added to their little equation.

I am aware that a number of people in discontinued roles already have a couple applications for new jobs under their belts. Their hope is that any and all interaction with a certain government department is totally avoided.

It is a crap way to spend a weekend - polishing up ones resume and writing job applications. Apparently ... from what I hear...

Kind regards
Lionel

[Bigbjorn]

There is redundant and not redundant. Google Weeks vs ATO.

[PhilipA]

I have been made redundant 3 times in my life .

I don't see much difference with Newstart as a person being made redundant will usually receive a payout according to their length of service usually 2 weeks per year.( if you worked for Telstra you got 4 weeks per year. What a rort)

Accrued holiday leave is treated differently with less tax AFAIR. 30%?

The second last time I was made redundant from Austrade as I didn't apply for positions.
If you were there for 10 years or whatever the qualifying period you can also cash out long service leave at a lower tax rate.
I was also offered 6 weeks "stress leave" which I didn't accept as I thought it would not look good on my record, but in retrospect I would now take all the leave and "retraining" that is offered.

One thing I would consider if you are in a management position and over 40-45 , I found it very difficult to get another job. "Overqualified". It means too old and expensive. I have found that there is a lot of Ageism in the workplace despite what the propaganda says. No boss likes a subordinate with more experience than them.

However I really enjoyed being a TAFE teacher and consultant for 18 months before getting another executive position so all is not lost.
However if you are in a management position and would like one of the jobs on offer, I would go for it, as there is a great benefit in continuity of employment over a long period, that you will benefit from when you retire.

Regards Philip A

[Lionelgee]

There is redundant and not redundant. Google Weeks vs ATO.


Hello Big Bjorn,

Now that is interesting particularly the following part...
The court held that, for a payment to be a “genuine redundancy payment” under s 83-175(1), the employee’s position has to be made redundant. So much is clear from the language of s 83-175: “because the employee’s position is genuinely redundant”

As the new organisational structure does not feature a number of previous roles recorded in the former organisational structure, it would be considered a genuine redundancy.

It may make a number of people I know a little bit happier. Well as much as they can be in the current situation

Kind regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

I have been made redundant 3 times in my life .

I don't see much difference with Newstart as a person being made redundant will usually receive a payout according to their length of service usually 2 weeks per year.( if you worked for Telstra you got 4 weeks per year. What a rort)

Accrued holiday leave is treated differently with less tax AFAIR. 30%?

The second last time I was made redundant from Austrade as I didn't apply for positions.
If you were there for 10 years or whatever the qualifying period you can also cash out long service leave at a lower tax rate.
I was also offered 6 weeks "stress leave" which I didn't accept as I thought it would not look good on my record, but in retrospect I would now take all the leave and "retraining" that is offered.

One thing I would consider if you are in a management position and over 40-45 , I found it very difficult to get another job. "Overqualified". It means too old and expensive. I have found that there is a lot of Ageism in the workplace despite what the propaganda says. No boss likes a subordinate with more experience than them.

However I really enjoyed being a TAFE teacher and consultant for 18 months before getting another executive position so all is not lost.
However if you are in a management position and would like one of the jobs on offer, I would go for it, as there is a great benefit in continuity of employment over a long period, that you will benefit from when you retire.

Regards Philip A

Hello Philip,

Well there is irony for you... the first time I took a VER was when I was a TAFE Teacher! The state government decided that rural horticulture teachers and all the equipment we needed, like tractors were too expensive. It did not matter that our section was bringing in the most money in the whole institute at the time.

Also, you wrote... and would like one of the jobs on offer... well there is the crux of the matter. Each role in genuinely redundant positions have a new shadow role. The positions have changed from a management one to an administration role - a massive drop in pay and conditions.

Kind regards
Lionel

[DiscoMick]

I know someone whose organisation went through a similar process a couple of years ago, and the total number of staff dropped by about a third. It was not a happy time. The person I know survived. I advise you to apply for everything possible and take every dollar of entitlements available.

[Bigbjorn]

Hello Big Bjorn,

Now that is interesting particularly the following part...
The court held that, for a payment to be a “genuine redundancy payment” under s 83-175(1), the employee’s position has to be made redundant. So much is clear from the language of s 83-175: “because the employee’s position is genuinely redundant”

As the new organisational structure does not feature a number of previous roles recorded in the former organisational structure, it would be considered a genuine redundancy.

It may make a number of people I know a little bit happier. Well as much as they can be in the current situation

Kind regards
Lionel

Here is a link.

A taxing question: are you really redundant or merely excess? (https://www.smh.com.au/public-service/a-taxing-question-are-you-really-redundant-or-merely-excess-20131102-2wtjh.html)

I know Cheryl Weeks. She was harshly treated by the ATO. She is a lovely lady, a qualified solicitor which was her job at the ATO Executive Level 2. Someone wanted her out of the ATO. She defended herself in the AAT, Federal Court, High Court, and ended up with the ATO's costs awarded against her.

What always leaves a bad taste is when there are takeovers, reorganisations, new owners, new management, redundancies etc. and staff are told there are only x jobs in the new regime and x + ? workers. You will all have to apply for whatever jobs are available. Yes, including the job you are currently in.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, it's very nasty.

[Homestar]

Have been through this myself in the past - it's a ****ty situation, but here's a few things to consider and what I did when faced with this.

- I reapplied for my job, basically to give me time to think about things.
- I was lucky and got my job back - 2 others in my area didn't and I was asked to take on extra work (surprise surprise)
- I then used most of my time looking for a new job.
- Told said company to jam it as soon as I had found one and walked out - and I normally don't burn my bridges when moving around, but this was the exception. Funny thing was they asked both of the guys they'd just made redundant if they wanted to come back - both said no and they had to restructure that area again to make things work and by all accounts it was a cluster **** that cost them a lot on lost productivity for several months - suck **** I say.

One thing to consider here - if the company want you to jump through these hoops, how much do they value their staff? Answer - zero. Do you want to work for a company that doesn't give any value to their staff or their well being? I certainly wouldn't.

If faced with the same situation now, I would do pretty much the same thing, but as my family has grown up and moved out I'd take the opportunity for a tree change and move back to the Country rather than battle on in the City.

Hope it works out for you.

[weeds]

Going through something similar myself.....

Company has split into three different business units and have allocated everybody a business unit. Two business unit were put out for expression of interest while the other under review. A lot of worried people.

The business unit I’m in was sold pretty quick....changes hands 1st June. Given I’m on he corporate side/overhead I’m not sure how it’ll look with the new owner.....

Either way companies have the right to manage the business...and they owe me nothing, they have paid me in advance for the work I do. At the end of the day we are there to make the owner money.

I’ll either continue on in my role, maybe a role change or worst case be made redundant. If made redundant that’s life, I’ll move on.

[Homestar]

Going through something similar myself.....

Company has split into three different business units and have allocated everybody a business unit. Two business unit were put out for expression of interest while the other under review. A lot of worried people.

The business unit I’m in was sold pretty quick....changes hands 1st June. Given I’m on he corporate side/overhead I’m not sure how it’ll look with the new owner.....

Either way companies have the right to manage the business...and they owe me nothing, they have paid me in advance for the work I do. At the end of the day we are there to make the owner money.

I’ll either continue on in my role, maybe a role change or worst case be made redundant. If made redundant that’s life, I’ll move on.

Agreed that we are there to make the owner money, I have no dramas with that - the more I can make them the happier they'll be but when a company stop caring full stop for the people that are making them their money, things can and do turn around - a happy workforce is a productive workforce. I've worked for US companies in the past - they are the worst at it and also seem to have little understanding of why they turn over so many staff. The company I currently work for is the opposite and are productive and profitable - 100% Aussie owned and run. Staff turnover is low and they actively look at ways to improve staff amenity and satisfaction - and it shows with the workforce when you speak to everyone from the lowest **** kicker to Senior Management. There's no need to kick the crap out of your employees and make them feel worthless - it is a recipe for lower profits.

[DiscoMick]

A daughter in law went through this with a unit on Queensland health. They retrenched the manager, trainer and a third of the staff. She survived. Then the work backed up to enormous delays for life-threatening services and some people resigned in disgust. Fortunately the government changed and a more realistic attitude was taken.

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

Back in February, while I was standing on top of a mountain in Nepal that had a view of the neighbouring Himalayas, I was struck totally awe inspired. While being gob-smacked by the mountain range's beauty and attempting to come to terms with their sheer size and splendour, I had some questions pop into my head. One of these involved my current job. "Are you happy in your work?" After a period of close review - you can guess the answer I made.

Upon my return home I started to plan for a bit of a leisurely squiz around at my options. Two weeks after my return to work a meeting was called and a new organisational structure was displayed. Four former roles were no longer displayed. One of them was ...

Be very careful about making plans when standing on top of a mountain in Nepal while viewing the Himalayas ... things seem to work real damn fast and in unanticipated ways. I suppose once a thought gets out there...

Kind regards
Lionel

[cjc_td5]

Hello All,

Back in February, while I was standing on top of a mountain in Nepal that had a view of the neighbouring Himalayas, I was struck totally awe inspired. While being gob-smacked by the mountain range's beauty and attempting to come to terms with their sheer size and splendour, I had some questions pop into my head. One of these involved my current job. "Are you happy in your work?" After a period of close review - you can guess the answer I made.

Upon my return home I started to plan for a bit of a leisurely squiz around at my options. Two weeks after my return to work a meeting was called and a new organisational structure was displayed. Four former roles were no longer displayed. One of them was ...

Be very careful about making plans when standing on top of a mountain in Nepal while viewing the Himalayas ... things seem to work real damn fast and in unanticipated ways. I suppose once a thought gets out there...

Kind regards
Lionel

Ha, was there last November!
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190401/f15e4c20657189fc3ac703b419b139d1.jpg

[Lionelgee]

Ha, was there last November!
Cheers.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190401/ac5e13f304fe0443b188c0b6b765d555.jpg

Hello CJC,

We must have taken a different perspective of the view! Did you take pause to review things and then had the rug pulled out from under you by any chance?

My photographs were taken from the Peace Pagoda at Pokhara. The stretch of water is Fewa Lake. The red flowering plant in the foreground of the first photograph is Rhododendron arboreum. A Rhododendron which is native to Nepal. I had to leave my chosen vocation as a Amenity Horticulturist when I went blind. Not blind as in cannot see anything - just blind as in totally dependent upon very specialist scleral rigid gas permeable lenses to be able to see properly. Being able to see a plant growing in its natural surrounds was very - very special to me.

So too was seeing the terraced gardens cradling such steep mountain sides. I still see visions of highly decorated Tata trucks barrelling around blind corners while they are on my side of the road and they are coming straight at me! These are blind corners with switch backs that are on a mountain side and it a long, long way down.

Kind regards
Lionel

[cjc_td5]

Hello CJC,

We must have taken a different perspective of the view! Did you take pause to review things and then had the rug pulled out from under you by any chance?

My photographs were taken from the Peace Pagoda at Pokhara. The stretch of water is Fewa Lake. The red flowering plant in the foreground of the first photograph is Rhododendron arboreum. A Rhododendron which is native to Nepal. I had to leave my chosen vocation as a Amenity Horticulturist when I went blind. Not blind as in cannot see anything - just blind as in totally dependent upon very specialist scleral rigid gas permeable lenses to be able to see properly. Being able to see a plant growing in its natural surrounds was very - very special to me.

So too was seeing the terraced gardens cradling such steep mountain sides. I still see visions of highly decorated Tata trucks barrelling around blind corners while they are on my side of the road and they are coming straight at me!

Kind regards
LionelDamn photo can't decide which way it wants go display..... The photo was taken from the Peace Pagoda also.
Did you go any higher? We walked to Annapurna Base Camp etc. An amazing country, people, scenery etc.. I can totally see how people get hooked on Nepal.

[Lionelgee]

Damn photo can't decide which way it wants go display..... The photo was taken from the Peace Pagoda also.
Did you go any higher? We walked to Annapurna Base Camp etc. An amazing country, people, scenery etc.. I can totally see how people get hooked on Nepal.

Hello Chris,

We only went about one range closer to the Himalayas. Our main purpose was to accompany our son who got married to a Nepalese girl - including full traditional ceremony. We did have some time barrelling along roads of various descriptions. The shortest trip was from Pakhora back to Kathmandu. The bulk of the time our family were the only white people in the whole town where my daughter-in-law was raised. The trip we had can only be described as a trip of a lifetime. It is going to be damn hard to beat.

Yes, working and being able to pay for the trip was the best thing that came out of my two years in my soon to wind up job.

The photograph is one of the Tata trucks that are really nice when they are parked on nice flat ground.


Kind regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

By the way I am a 56 year old vision-impaired Aspie doing a part-time PhD, while I have been working on a full-time basis. I have nothing to be worried about re-entering the career market.

"I'm an excellent driver" - rock backward and forward, "I'm an excellent driver". Sorry sometimes it is hard not to play to stereotypes. (Dustin Hoffman - Rain Man).

"I'm not nervous at all..." "I'm not nervous at all..." Rock backward, rock forward....

Kind regards
Lionel

[V8Ian]

Hello Chris,

We only went about one range closer to the Himalayas. Our main purpose was to accompany our son who got married to a Nepalese girl - including full traditional ceremony. We did have some time barrelling along roads of various descriptions. The shortest trip was from Pakhora back to Kathmandu. The bulk of the time our family were the only white people in the whole town where my daughter-in-law was raised. The trip we had can only be described as a trip of a lifetime. It is going to be damn hard to beat.

Yes, working and being able to pay for the trip was the best thing that came out of my two years in my soon to wind up job.

The photograph is one of the Tata trucks that are really nice when they are parked on nice flat ground.


Kind regards
Lionel

I think I'll stick to Western Star, thanks Lionel. [smilebigeye]

[RANDLOVER]

Don't be so sure about being made redundant, I know a guy who went through a re-apply for jobs scenario, applied for a job and didn't get it, but got a job he didn't even apply for!

[RANDLOVER]

Pine Gap spy base contractor Raytheon locked in redundancy payout dispute - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-02/pine-gap-defence-contractor-sued-employees-raytheon-secretive-nt/10959388)

Watch out for this trick of offering a person an inferior job, then refusing to pay a redundancy when they don't accept it.

[travelrover]

Lost my job last Friday as my role disappeared as part of a “business transformation”.

It has now transpired the role is still there and will filled by someone that got off the plane on Sunday. Hmmm

[Bigbjorn]

Lost my job last Friday as my role disappeared as part of a “business transformation”.

It has now transpired the role is still there and will filled by someone that got off the plane on Sunday. Hmmm

It would appear that someone up there didn't like you. Perhaps the parachutist is going to work cheaper?

[travelrover]

It would appear that someone up there didn't like you. Perhaps the parachutist is going to work cheaper?

Am sure they will be working for a lot less! Second time it has happened to me in three years. Such is the life of a contractor....

[PhilipA]

Unless the position is redundant it is illegal under IR law to say a position is redundant then fill it again.

Regards Philip A

[gromit]

Lionel,
All the best, hope it works out OK.
At least you are getting some warning although it must raise the stress levels while you re-apply.


5 years ago I was about to take over as MD of the Australian operation of an Italian company. Went to the MD's meeting in Italy , met the MD's from around the World.......
4 weeks later the current MD retrenched my position (so he could stay for another 2 years). Small operation here (less than 14 employees) so no redundancy package just got my outstanding holiday pay, 4 weeks notice pay and sent on my way ! I was running my own car on an allowance system and payments on the car were just over $1K per month.

58 and looking for another position, to say I was worried is an understatement especially as I have young kids still at home.

Called a competitor to the company that retrenched me as I left the building and booked an interview with them the next working day. Second interview 4 days later and got the job back in sales. A drop in salary but a job, and I actually ended up getting paid by both companies for a couple of weeks.

Several things that make me smile since I left.

1. I left with the company mobile & laptop. Managed to download all my emails, customer details etc. before they sent someone round to collect the phone & laptop. A big thank you to someone on the forum who helped me delete absolutely everything on my laptop before it was returned.

2. On a daily basis I have the opportunity to win business from my old employer. I know their pricing, I know their products better than most of their current staff and I know their customer base.

3. About 2 years ago I discovered that their accountant had skimmed off just over $1.5M from them over a 5 year period. So both the MD that retrenched me and the new MD were unaware of the theft going on 'under their noses'.
It could have happened 'on my watch'!



Colin

[travelrover]

Unless the position is redundant it is illegal under IR law to say a position is redundant then fill it again.

Regards Philip A

Yup, understand that. I was told the position was being ‘disestablished’ whatever that means. Last time it happened to me 3 years ago I was employed by the largest employer in the country. They just changed the position description and title though the role was in essence identical. I left on the Friday and the ‘replacement’ flew in over the weekend to start on Monday.

[weeds]

Unless the position is redundant it is illegal under IR law to say a position is redundant then fill it again.

Regards Philip A

Give the position a new title and job description....

[3toes]

Know of one place in U.K. where a new boss arrived. Decided that the business required a restructure so it could achieve its aims as he saw it. All positions (about 20) were cancelled and new job descriptions that were slightly different but not much issued. About half the people were retained. What was clear though was that anyone who had not fully agreed with him in the first couple of weeks no longer worked there. All done a cording to the law with specialists employed to complete the restructure and ensure the outcome was as he wanted. And for those who might be wondering no it does not exist anymore. The boss has another more senior role in the same sector. By reputation still does not tolerate what he sees as dissent from those lower than himself

[3toes]

Restructures are a beast of their own that do not conform to any real world hard facts.

Business with operations across Australia. Brought in the experts to identify how to reduce costs and make more competitive. Profits were down and showing continual decline which management had been unable to stop. Result was that Melbourne and Sydney operations be reduced to sales satellites and either Adelaide or Brisbane be made corporate centre. This was based on costs as these places are very expensive to operate in. Actual result was Melbourne became corporate centre and other sites reduced. Rational of owner was that he lived in Melbourne.

Or U.K. business that wanted to restructure regional operations. Staff were told that management had employed out side experts to assist with driving business forward. To engage with them as all ideas were important and they wanted the knowledge from within the business to ensure the best outcome was produced which required everyone’s input. What they were not told was that management had already signed off on the restructure and the consultants were only their to window dress the plan when the independent review was published

[DiscoMick]

How many times have we seen restructures in which the people who actually make the products and generate the sales are trimmed, while those above them who merely manage are left untouched, resulting in a decline in production and sales, and the business spirals downwards, while others expand to take up the lost opportunities.

[Bigbjorn]

How many times have we seen restructures in which the people who actually make the products and generate the sales are trimmed, while those above them who merely manage are left untouched, resulting in a decline in production and sales, and the business spirals downwards, while others expand to take up the lost opportunities.

I worked for a vehicle assembler that pruned the monthly paid salaried staff first. Management were not sufficiently courageous to upset the very militant unionised production workforce.

[travelrover]

I was working in Singapore during the GFC and one ‘enterprising’ tech company had a planned fire evacuation. Once assembled outside the staff were advised that some of their access cards would no longer work and if this was the case you had been made redundant and personal belongings would be couriered to their home address. Quite legal there at the time. People care laws hardly existed in Asia and completely ignored by western multinationals when convenient to do so despite moral obligations under their home H/O charters and mission statements.

Even so did not go down well, was mentioned in parliament and made the BBC World news.

[Bigbjorn]

I was working in Singapore during the GFC and one ‘enterprising’ tech company had a planned fire evacuation. Once assembled outside the staff were advised that some of their access cards would no longer work and if this was the case you had been made redundant and personal belongings would be couriered to their home address. Quite legal there at the time. People care laws hardly existed in Asia and completely ignored by western multinationals when convenient to do so despite moral obligations under their home H/O charters and mission statements.

Even so did not go down well, was mentioned in parliament and made the BBC World news.

In the 1980's a Brisbane metal fabrication company was working normally on Friday afternoon. Monday morning the gates were locked, security guards in place and the workers arriving to start were told the company had closed down and was to be sold up. Employees were told that if they had any personal possessions inside they could make arrangements with the security firm to be escorted in, one at a time, to identify their tools etc and establish ownership. "Got receipts and invoices?"

[Eevo]

company i work for is going though a restructure. 9000 redundancies over 3 years, its about one third of the work force.

if the company didnt do it, the company would not be operating in 5-10 years time.

[Lionelgee]

Message deleted

[Stuck]

Pine Gap spy base contractor Raytheon locked in redundancy payout dispute - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-02/pine-gap-defence-contractor-sued-employees-raytheon-secretive-nt/10959388)

Watch out for this trick of offering a person an inferior job, then refusing to pay a redundancy when they don't accept it.
A few blokes up this way got caught with something like that a little while back. They were offered jobs in another part of the group of companies at a lower rate of pay which they took. Not long after, that section had a restructure and each one of those blokes was made redundant and paid out at the lower rate.