Nappies To Asia

[Fatso]

Starting to think that Oz companies who shut up shop and move thier manufactuting to Asia to access cheap labour should be hit with much higher Tarriffs to get thier pruduct back into Australia , or is there some idiotic global law that prohibits this idea .

Something needs to be done as when there are no jobs left in this country and no skills left to fill any future jobs it will be a sad state of affairs for the companies that deserted Oz as there will also be no money left for the unemplyed to buy anything with . [bigsad]

Interesting to note that Wallmart in the US sapports wage rises for this very reason . Rant over have a nice day all :soapbox:

[101RRS]

While I dont disagree - we do have to be competitive and if we are not then we suffer.

[Tote]

Its a bit of a philosophical argument, do we want (on a macro scale) our people to be doing menial tasks (making nappies) or do we want them doing smarter stuff. The thorn in the argument is that the bloke that was making nappies last week is unlikely to be building code for the shiny widget this week.
It's difficult up-skill our labour resources at the same rate as the market demands it.

Regards,
Tote

[austastar]

Hmmm,
We used cloth nappies on both our kids.
We tried the disposable ones when traveling, but it was more hassle separating the biodegradables from the combustibles than it was worth.
Cheers

[carjunkieanon]

Hmmm,
We used cloth nappies on both our kids.
We tried the disposable ones when traveling, but it was more hassle separating the biodegradables from the combustibles than it was worth.
Cheers

'combustibles'? - you burnt your nappies?

[Bigbjorn]

Its a bit of a philosophical argument, do we want (on a macro scale) our people to be doing menial tasks (making nappies) or do we want them doing smarter stuff. The thorn in the argument is that the bloke that was making nappies last week is unlikely to be building code for the shiny widget this week.
It's difficult up-skill our labour resources at the same rate as the market demands it.

Regards,
Tote

We have around 800,000 unemployed and disability pensioners with capacity to work. Most are low skilled/unskilled/obsolete skilled. The only way to get them into the work force is via manufacturing. Only manufacturing can provide large numbers of jobs for the unskilled and low skilled. Tariffs are not needed. Tariffs only advantage the company owners who raise their prices to the limit the tariff will bear and become inefficient, stop research and innovation and don't update plant. What would be more effective is to tell importers that this is your import quota but you are allowed to sell as much as you wish. you just have to make it here, employ Australians, and leave some money behind in Oz. A good example would be motor vehicles. Only say 15% of an importers sales can be imported CBU or SUP. The other 85% must be made or assembled here imported as CKD.

Tote, menial tasks are better than no tasks.

[weeds]

Aussies are priced out of the manufacturing market......just have a look at all the news at the moment on the budget, everybody want more.

If huggies stay in Aus....price per nappy goes up....they no longer can compete, they close anyway.

[trout1105]

Going back a few years we had a fair bit of industry and factory jobs in Geraldton that employed hundreds of people that have now since vanished.
They have either gone overseas or have moved to Perth unfortunately for various reasons.
One example is the crayfishing industry.
This used to have hundreds of boats fishing the coast between Dongara to Kalbarri and many of these fished the Abrolhos Islands that required 5 carrier boats to service them and 4 factories to process the crayfish and service the fishermen during the season that employed hundreds of people.
Now there is only a small number of much bigger boats fishing much larger licences and None of the crayfish are processed here as they are sent "Live" to Perth, This industry now only employs a much smaller workforce locally.
Pretty much the same thing has happened to the farming industry as most of the smaller farms have now been turned into large holdings that don't need as much labour to operate and many of them No longer run livestock (Too much bother) which in turn has killed the export meatworks here which also had a large workforce.

Its called "Progress" But unfortunately it hasn't been of any benefit to the local workforce unfortunately

[Fatso]

Going back a few years we had a fair bit of industry and factory jobs in Geraldton that employed hundreds of people that have now since vanished.


Its called "Progress" But unfortunately it hasn't been of any benefit to the local workforce unfortunately

Sort of what i was trying to say , Substitute Australia for Geraldton and at the end of the day we as a country will end up the same , "where too from there " ?? . Bit like trying to understand " does space go on forever ", the more you think about it the more it does your head in . I supose in the end Globilisation will work or we go bust .

[scarry]

Hmmm,
We used cloth nappies on both our kids.
We tried the disposable ones when traveling, but it was more hassle separating the biodegradables from the combustibles than it was worth.
Cheers

Actually,disposable nappies are quite a large percentage of landfill.

Nothing wrong with the cloth ones,which is all we used, but that was quite a few years ago.

To much of a nuisance for people these days,i suppose.

[Disco-tastic]

Actually,disposable nappies are quite a large percentage of landfill.

Nothing wrong with the cloth ones,which is all we used, but that was quite a few years ago.

To much of a nuisance for people these days,i suppose.We used cloth for a while with our kids (eldest is nearly 5) and our 2 big reasons for changing to disposable was that they leaked (particularly overnight) and the kids got bad nappy rash.

[trout1105]

Sort of what i was trying to say , Substitute Australia for Geraldton and at the end of the day we as a country will end up the same , "where too from there " ?? . Bit like trying to understand " does space go on forever ", the more you think about it the more it does your head in . I supose in the end Globilisation will work or we go bust .

We should be processing/value adding (or at least doing some of it) to our raw materials and produce instead of simply fishing, farming or digging up the raw materials and flogging them off.
If we keep doing what we are now the unemployment figures will only get worse and the costs of looking after these unemployed will start to affect our standard of living.
At least those lost processing, Rural and factory jobs gave people a start to their employment career and gave them some experience and training so that they could move on to bigger and better things, The poor buggers leaving school now definitely don't have the employment opportunities that us Baby Boomers had back in our youth unfortunately.

[Bigbjorn]

We should be processing/value adding (or at least doing some of it) to our raw materials and produce instead of simply fishing, farming or digging up the raw materials and flogging them off.
If we keep doing what we are now the unemployment figures will only get worse and the costs of looking after these unemployed will start to affect our standard of living.
At least those lost processing, Rural and factory jobs gave people a start to their employment career and gave them some experience and training so that they could move on to bigger and better things, The poor buggers leaving school now definitely don't have the employment opportunities that us Baby Boomers had back in our youth unfortunately.

Exactly my point. Instead of having an economy based on selling houses to each other we should be value adding to our natural resources and primary produce. Abandon the dig it up, cut it down, ship it out mentality. Do at least the first stages of processing here as a minimum. Export steel not iron ore and coking coal, aluminium not bauxite, carcasses and packaged meat not live animals. We used to have spinning and weaving mills but just a tiny amount of our wool is now processed here. Same with the cotton crop. Large volume high value imports like vehicles and white goods should be assembled here from CKD packs if not possible to fully manufacture here. Imagine the impact on a country city with high unemployment of an assembly plant possibly employing with its outside suppliers and logistics providers 2000 breadwinners.

[DiscoMick]

I like the idea of making lithium batteries here, since we have all the raw materials here.

[Fatso]

Exactly my point. Instead of having an economy based on selling houses to each other we should be value adding to our natural resources and primary produce. Abandon the dig it up, cut it down, ship it out mentality. Do at least the first stages of processing here as a minimum. Export steel not iron ore, aluminium not bauxite, carcasses and packaged meat not live animals. We used to have spinning and weaving mills but almost all but a tiny amount of our wool is now processed here. Same with the cotton crop. Large volume high value imports like vehicles and white goods should be assembled here from CKD packs if not possible to fully manufacture here. Imagine the impact on a country city with high unemployment of an assembly plant possibly employing with its outside suppliers and logistics providers 2000 breadwinners.

I can remember when i was in the NSW Fire Brigades in the early 70s based at Parramatta NSW , we used to carry out Building Inspections of factories in the western suburbs , Hoover , Actil Linen , Chesty Bond , Westinghouse , Palaco Shirts and clothes , Halstrom , Ford Motor Company , Goodyear , Dunlop , just to mention a few . Jobs were a plenty , could resign on a friday and start a new job Monday . I dont think any of these places exist anymore .

Think i have seen the best of this country just feel for the grandkids and hopefully they can undo with the mess we have put ourselves in .

[Fatso]

I like the idea of making lithium batteries here, since we have all the raw materials here.

Federal Approval has been given for a new Lithium mine in WA to start up , but i will bet london to a brick not one bloody battery will be made in Australia :censored:

[V8Ian]

Exactly my point. Instead of having an economy based on selling houses to each other we should be value adding to our natural resources and primary produce. Abandon the dig it up, cut it down, ship it out mentality. Do at least the first stages of processing here as a minimum. Export steel not iron ore, aluminium not bauxite, carcasses and packaged meat not live animals. We used to have spinning and weaving mills but almost all but a tiny amount of our wool is now processed here. Same with the cotton crop. Large volume high value imports like vehicles and white goods should be assembled here from CKD packs if not possible to fully manufacture here. Imagine the impact on a country city with high unemployment of an assembly plant possibly employing with its outside suppliers and logistics providers 2000 breadwinners.
Or mandate that X% of exports has to remain in, be fully processed and sold within this country. That would be an incentive to offer affordable Australian made products while creating employment and skills to the entire gamut of intellectual abilities.

[weeds]

I like the idea of making lithium batteries here, since we have all the raw materials here.

Sadly not competitive....an Aussie company is already manufacturing in Malaysia and has been in the press of late.

While the tree huggers in Malaysia don’t like it Aussies really don’t like radioactive waste in the back yard.......although if batteries were manufactured close to the mine it makes it a whole lot easier. But than again getting Aussies to live out of the city to the country and receive minimum wage....

No chance of large scale manufacturing starting up in Aus anytime soon or forever.

[Ean Austral]

Educate the population to buy local first , if and when you can do that then you can look at the rest.

We are all guilty of buying the cheapest no matter where its made or from , and wanting to be paid the most for what we do. Change that attitude and businesses may decide to stay. no one to blame but ourselves.

Cheers Ean

[101RRS]

Tambo Teddies now buy their sheep skins from China - for sure they are Aussie sheep skins taken in Aust then shipped to China for processing then shipped back to the Tambo factory in Toowoomba (used to be in Tambo).

Sheep skins could not be reliably sourced in Aust so Aussie Sheep skins are sourced from China - go figure. [bigsad] Oh and many of the Tambo workers are refugees as local Aussie workers were hard to source and retain.

Garry

[RANDLOVER]

Educate the population to buy local first , if and when you can do that then you can look at the rest.

We are all guilty of buying the cheapest no matter where its made or from , and wanting to be paid the most for what we do. Change that attitude and businesses may decide to stay. no one to blame but ourselves.

Cheers Ean
I think organisations like the WTO, IMF are to blame as they sold the world globalisation as as a utopian dream, in that each country would do what they were best at, so in theory the 1st world would do manufacturing, financial services etc, and the 3rd world would do fishing, forestry, food crop production, etc. This would all be very efficient, the best people doing the best job with best resources, but then the companies realised they could get things made much cheaper in the 3rd world due to labour costs, so countries began competing on labour cost alone. It didn't matter that transport costs were higher or energy production was not quite as efficient, or pollution regulations were almost non-existent, as long as the labour cost reduction made up for it.

[Tombie]

I like the idea of making lithium batteries here, since we have all the raw materials here.

Where are the other elements/minerals mined in Oz?

I guess we can make synthetic Graphite - good thing we have coal mines available [emoji6]

[1984V8110]

Tombie asks what other opportunities are there for Australia to downstream process minerals.

I'd suggest the rare Earth Elements (REE) and Uranium are two obvious contenders. Currently REE concentrates are produced in Australia and being processed, rather contentiously, in Malaysia. It is possible that a new owner of the REE mine may bring production back to Australia. We should embrace that as REEs are controlled by Chinese producers so there is a good deal of opportunity in producing REEs since countries like the US and Japan will be willing to pay to avoid being totally dependent on Chinese supplies. Moreover REE processing is a complex, reasonably technologically advanced process - something we should focus on.

Another obvious opportunity is to convert yellowcake into Uranium, enrich the Uranium to the levels required for reactors, and then take back the fuel rods after use to store the radioactive waste safely in our unusually stable environment. That is we offer a closed loop to countries we sell Uranium to, and make good money from it.

Both REE processing and Uranium enrichment and waste storage require sensible storage of radioactive waste (REE ores contain Thorium which produces a mildly radioactive waste that needs to be managed carefully). We have, or could develop the capacity, to manage these processes safely and build on our political and geological stability as an asset. To do so would require a grown up discussion of the risks associated with such industries, but I'd suggest it can be done and the benefits (export income, well paid technologically advanced jobs, some if not all in regional areas) would be large.

Incidentally in truth I think that due to escalating power prices we will actually see the reverse of more downstream processing - we will see less since our Aluminium smelting industries must now be under real threat due to the huge electricity consumption associated with converting alumina to aluminium.

Cheers

Michael

[Tombie]

Slight misinterpretation Michael.

I was referring to making the batteries here. We don’t have the other required elements for Lithium battery production in sufficient volume so would be importing to our expensive labour.

Or we use coal and make the graphite. [emoji846]

As for additional processing, I’m all for it. But with Australian wages as high as they are its damn near unlikely to ever happen. Some of my employees are on +$65 an hour.

[ramblingboy42]

I know this thread started about nappies but its come back to industry , utilisation then to uranium processing.

Not far from Olympic Dam is Broken Hill.

If yellowcake was processed locally and spent fuel rods were returned they could be stored forever at the bottom of 2 or 3 of the world's deepest ...now unused... mine shafts. It could be taken down around 2 1/2 miles and out into one of the drives (they go for a long way under Broken Hill) and sealed for purpetuity.

It would create an ongoing world industry or 2 or 3 that would see again thousands of workers employed across that area of Australia.

Another mine could establish a huge stored hydro system falling several thousand feet (think 12,000')with a number of turbines on the way down...in fact you could have one on every level , which were around 180' feet apart. Not a problem to pump the water back , they have always had pumps in several stages pumping water out of the mines there. The system could operate perpetually with one generator dedicated to the power to return the water to the surface. Half the infrastructure needed is already there.

[DiscoMick]

Problem with storing radioactive material deep in mines is if the mine flooded it might pollute the water aquifer, which could spread the contaminated water over a wide area.
Pumped hydro in mines seems to be very viable and I have read about several proposals.
As for making lithium batteries here, I wonder if Century will expand its range to produce them.

[Tombie]

Problem with storing radioactive material deep in mines is if the mine flooded it might pollute the water aquifer, which could spread the contaminated water over a wide area.
Pumped hydro in mines seems to be very viable and I have read about several proposals.
As for making lithium batteries here, I wonder if Century will expand its range to produce them.

I’ve worked on a pumped hydro project, interesting stuff.
The project uses a currently active mine which is being opened up to improve its future capacity as Hydro.

I don’t know how the numbers for Lithium batteries would stack up here - we would either need to import Graphite or synthesise it from Coal.

Processing the stuff is neither cheap, nor clean.

[Eevo]

the more that wages rise, the more jobs that will be sent offshore. (for jobs that can be sent offshore)

[DiscoMick]

the more that wages rise, the more jobs that will be sent offshore. (for jobs that can be sent offshore)Not necessarily. Germany has kept manufacturing despite high wages.

[Eevo]

Not necessarily. Germany has kept manufacturing despite high wages.

we're a long long way from being like germany my friend.

[DiscoMick]

we're a long long way from being like germany my friend.Only because the Germans refused to sacrifice their manufacturing industries for short term thinking and took a long-term approach.

[Eevo]

Only because the Germans refused to sacrifice their manufacturing industries for short term thinking and took a long-term approach.


it would involve germany making and exporting quality products. something which australia isnt able to do.

[trout1105]

it would involve germany making and exporting quality products. something which australia isnt able to do.

We make some fantastic high quality items here in Aus But we really Struggle to make them at a price that is competitive on the World market unfortunately.

[Eevo]

We make some fantastic high quality items here in Aus But we really Struggle to make them at a price that is competitive on the World market unfortunately.

you my friend, have hit the nail on the head.

[PerthDisco]

you my friend, have hit the nail on the head.

That is where brand comes into it. Quality itself won’t guarantee a high price without brand prestige a la BMW Mercedes etc (even though the latter has decoupled quality from price in later vehicles). Look at the panic in Germany now given entrenched supply chains ZF Bosch etc around the growth in EVs they cannot easily react to and end up having to import battery tech from Asia. No country is immune from disruption.

[DiscoMick]

I read the Germans are investing heavily in lithium battery manufacturing. Sonnen seem to do good lithiums. No reason we can't make lithium batteries here, if we have the commitment to make it happen.

We can make great stuff in this country and export it successfully. Look at the success of ARB, Ironman, TJM etc. But we have to be prepared to invest in the future, instead of just ripping out the profits and going fishing.

[Tombie]

Surely we have others on here versed in Macroeconomics?

So much of this is BS it’s not funny.

IF - IF we want local manufacturing then WE need to stop shopping around - WE are the cause.

Our Super, Our buying and spending habits are a direct cause of manufacturing moving off shore.

If we buy Aus made, we will pay a premium. The local premium then levels our inflated wages and we slide back in cost of living.

Our future is to be a tech hub, develop and sell technology and have cheaper nations produce it.

Using any European nation is fraught with error as the EU levels a lot of that playing field.

Australia is:
First world wages
Second world infrastructure

And limited by geography and logistics.

[DiscoMick]

All good points.
The USA seems to be having the same debate, and losing to China. But China is itself no longer a cheap manufacturing base. Japan and South Korea are at different stages on the same curve. Unfortunately, we just jumped off.

[Tombie]

Long term it will all swing back around.
Look how it all changed..

Made in Taiwan
Made in India
Made in Phillipines
Made in China

As each one demands better living and wages the manufacturing or services relocate.

Eventually the field will level and local will be the go.
Then the cycle will start again.

World financial markets are a totally manipulated construct, and it’s manipulation is constant to maintain “growth”.

[Tombie]

We can make great stuff in this country and export it successfully. Look at the success of ARB, Ironman, TJM etc. But we have to be prepared to invest in the future, instead of just ripping out the profits and going fishing.

Mick, this one had me curious because of some older info so I did some checking...

ARB newer model gear is Australia made (knew this)
Old model stuff is imported as people won’t spend the coin to cover local costs.

TJM - some gear is local, seems a similar model to above

Ironman - Australian specced- Chinese manufactured.

[PhilipA]

I don’t know how the numbers for Lithium batteries would stack up here - we would either need to import Graphite or synthesise it from Coal.
The biggest graphite mine in the World is in Mozambique and is owned by Australians and listed on the ASX.
It is Syrah (SYR) and Australian Super is the major shareholder.
It really doesn't matter where the product is produced as long as the ownership is Australian. I have shares.

Regards Philip A

[DiscoMick]

Yes, it's a mixture, I know. That's your point about technology coming from here and manufacturing there, I guess, like the Japanese car companies manufacturing in Thailand. Chinese companies are investing in lower cost Asian supplier plants in countries such as Myanmar.
Still, it can be done. Cochlear is an example.
Multinationals see a global world and manufacture where costs are lowest.
If we use our resources to manufacture here, we save a lot of transport costs, so it's about more than just wages.
I read when the Holden Cruze was being made here it was competitive with versions of the same vehicle made overseas.
No one said it was easy, but it is possible if we are determined to make it work.

[Tombie]

The biggest graphite mine in the World is in Mozambique and is owned by Australians and listed on the ASX.
It is Syrah (SYR) and Australian Super is the major shareholder.
It really doesn't matter where the product is produced as long as the ownership is Australian. I have shares.

Regards Philip A





My mate is the Principal Met there...... an interesting site operating amongst a hive of local corruption and danger.
Site security is pretty serious.



Also - did you happen to notice the ironic hypocrisy in your last sentence [emoji846].

[Bigbjorn]

Only because the Germans refused to sacrifice their manufacturing industries for short term thinking and took a long-term approach.

Germany has to manufacture and export. Their primary producers can not produce enough food to feed their population.

[DeeJay]

Long term it will all swing back around.
Look how it all changed..

Made in Taiwan
Made in India
Made in Phillipines
Made in China

As each one demands better living and wages the manufacturing or services relocate.

Eventually the field will level and local will be the go.
Then the cycle will start again.

World financial markets are a totally manipulated construct, and it’s manipulation is constant to maintain “growth”.

I wish I could agree

Sadly by the time the wheel turns - which will probably be 30-40 years- the "brain drain" will be complete, there will be nowhere near enough teachers, nor technical schools, nor even the land to rebuild schools or factories near population centres. The list goes on. You cant recommence something in the time required to fill the need now that took a quite few generations to establish in the first place.
As an industrial Sales rep in mostly Melbourne for 30 years, the number of factories that I witnessed either going offshore or more commonly going under was mindboggling.

[DiscoMick]

The UK Government has just given JLR a 500 million pound bribe disguised as a loan to keep manufacturing in Britain rather than moving more production to the EU.

[Bigbjorn]

The biggest graphite mine in the World is in Mozambique and is owned by Australians and listed on the ASX.
It is Syrah (SYR) and Australian Super is the major shareholder.
It really doesn't matter where the product is produced as long as the ownership is Australian. I have shares.

Regards Philip A





Mozambique is only the fifth graphite miner in the world with a mere 23, 000 Metric Tons from the one producing mine with another under construction. China leads with 780,000 MT.

[PhilipA]

Also - did you happen to notice the ironic hypocrisy in your last sentence
No I cannot see your point.
You think That for example Nestle only produce in Switzerland?
It is one of the problems of Australia that most of our industries are owned by overseas people and the money goes back to their countries.

As A Trade Commissioner for many years I saw what a corrosive influence on exports this could be.

I once heard that a British factory , I think Lever and Kitchen had production problems with lets say OMO.
I suggested that the Australian subsidiary could supply their middle East Markets . I got ignored and shot down quick smart.
I also advised Australian component manufacturers to set up in Thailand as this was the future. They were so short sighted they ignored me and just about all are gone now.

Look at Google and Facebook.
The profile of the future is ownership of the resources and the intellectual property . It doesn't matter where stuff is produced , what matters is where the money goes.

Regards Philip A

[PhilipA]

[QUOTE]

Mozambique is only the fifth graphite miner in the world with a mere 23, 000 Metric Tons from the one producing mine with another under construction. China leads with 780,000 MT.

[/QUOTE
Afraid you figures are bogus mate.

Graphite Produced kt 44(qtr 2 2019) 48 (qtr 1 2019) 21 (qtr 2 2108) (8%) source quarterly report SYR

Those are three quarters for final product (coarse , fine etc)which adds up to 113Ktonnes.

There are many Chinese mines but none as big as SYR.
Regards Philip A

[RANDLOVER]

Mozambique could be a massive sovereign risk, if the govt. (present or future) decided to nationalise the mine and sell it to China to pay off debt (entrapment?).

[Bigbjorn]

[QUOTE]

Mozambique is only the fifth graphite miner in the world with a mere 23, 000 Metric Tons from the one producing mine with another under construction. China leads with 780,000 MT.

[/QUOTE
Afraid you figures are bogus mate.

Graphite Produced kt 44(qtr 2 2019) 48 (qtr 1 2019) 21 (qtr 2 2108) (8%) source quarterly report SYR

Those are three quarters for final product (coarse , fine etc)which adds up to 113Ktonnes.

There are many Chinese mines but none as big as SYR.
Regards Philip A






The figure I quoted is on the internet.