A nautical story [Archive] - Australian Land Rover Owners

bob10

5th April 2019, 04:01 PM

Sounds good. Without Satnav I doubt you could claim accuracy , but a good story.

A FASCINATING SHORT SEA STORY

The passenger steamer SS Warrimoo was quietly knifing its way
through the waters of the mid-Pacific on its way from Vancouver to
Australia.

The navigator had just finished working out a star fix and brought
the master, Captain John Phillips, the result.

The Warrimoo's position was LAT 0º 31' N and LON 179 30' W.

The date was 31 December 1899.

"Know what this means?" First Mate Payton broke in,

"We're only a few miles from the intersection of the Equator and the
International Date Line".

Captain Phillips was prankish enough to take full advantage of the
opportunity for achieving the navigational freak of a lifetime.

He called his navigators to the bridge to check & double check the
ships position.

He changed course slightly so as to bear directly on his mark.

Then he adjusted the engine speed.

The calm weather & clear night worked in his favour.

At mid-night the SS Warrimoo lay on the Equator at exactly the point
where it crossed the International Date Line!

The consequences of this bizarre position were many:

The forward part (bow) of the ship was in the Southern Hemisphere &
in the middle of summer.

The rear (stern) was in the Northern Hemisphere & in the middle of
winter.

The date in the aft part of the ship was 31 December 1899.

In the bow (forward) part it was 1 January 1900.

This ship was therefore not only in:

Two different days,

Two different months,

Two different years,

Two different seasons

But in two different centuries - all at the same time.

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0?ui=2&ik=36bc3c6bc5&attid=0.1&permmsgid=msg-f:1629945612604997738&th=169ebae61a87006a&view=fimg&sz=s0-l75-ft&attbid=ANGjdJ-K-Q2ueuaSSCRJxIejWNA0MCcd37sh5vEsw-ylmdiUtgSjf5nRnxBhjyUV3igHeV_Tno8MjaZbS5-WGuhCTkRs1dCuJTw6mwILptIkynu06_sJTB-MKCe8nHk&disp=emb

NavyDiver

5th April 2019, 05:56 PM

JDNSW

5th April 2019, 06:58 PM

Sorry to spoil the story a little - but contrary to popular belief, 1899 and 1900 are in the same century. The twentieth century did not begin until 1/1/1901.

bob10

5th April 2019, 07:39 PM

Sorry to spoil the story a little - but contrary to popular belief, 1899 and 1900 are in the same century. The twentieth century did not begin until 1/1/1901.

You are right of course. But sometimes I think we need these stories .

bob10

5th April 2019, 07:42 PM

A sextant and sun set. sun rise position just might be needed this Sunday Bob

149915
Will your sat nav stop working this Saturday? – Which? News (https://www.which.co.uk/news/2019/04/will-your-sat-nav-stop-working-this-saturday/)

I'll just put the stick in ground, find north with my watch, and count my steps. I'll get there.

roverrescue

5th April 2019, 07:44 PM

The Warrimoo was 105m in length

At the equator 1 minute of long/lat is 1850m

So to straddle a specific point on the equator with a 105m boat
Requires accuracy to 1.6 seconds of accuracy

Current considered accuracy of non differential GPS is in the order of
0.3 seconds of accuracy.

Sooooooooo, using a few chronometers and sextants (on a moving boat)
The turn of the century mariners would only need to be 6 times less accurate
Than an I-phone !!! Feasible perhaps.

But with current accurate time pieces and $$$ sextants (likely more accurate than the 1899 mode used) about 6 seconds is considered bomb accurate

I’m guessing at best they may have been in the general vicinity of the intersection at roughly midnight!!!

;)

Steve

Aaron IIA

5th April 2019, 07:53 PM

Sorry to spoil the story a little - but contrary to popular belief, 1899 and 1900 are in the same century. The twentieth century did not begin until 1/1/1901.While I technically agree with you, does it mean that we should have had the big millennium party on 2000-2001, instead of 1999-2000?

Aaron

NavyDiver

5th April 2019, 07:54 PM

JDNSW

6th April 2019, 07:24 AM

While I technically agree with you, does it mean that we should have had the big millennium party on 2000-2001, instead of 1999-2000?

Aaron

Yes, and this was widely discussed at the time.

pop058

6th April 2019, 07:31 AM

While I technically agree with you, does it mean that we should have had the big millennium party on 2000-2001, instead of 1999-2000?

Aaron

Yep [thumbsupbig]

trout1105

6th April 2019, 07:36 AM

A sextant and sun set. sun rise position just might be needed this Sunday Bob

149915
Will your sat nav stop working this Saturday? – Which? News (https://www.which.co.uk/news/2019/04/will-your-sat-nav-stop-working-this-saturday/)

All is Good, I only use GPS to see where I am not what time of day it is and when at sea or travelling on land I like to work out my ETA in my head as it breaks up the boordom of long trips[thumbsupbig]
It has been a Long time since I have had to use a compass Map/Chart and dead reckoning at sea or in the Bush But I can still do it IF I had to, Newer players that have Only ever used GPS for navigation would struggle with the use of only a Map/Chart and a compass only to get from A to B safely.

JDNSW

6th April 2019, 07:39 AM

I think I am repeating a yarn. As Anzac day is approaching I will give my self a leave pass today.

On HMAS Vampire, Mutiple mishipmen took sexants to mark our possitions every sun rise and sun set. The running joke was were and what we could be eating given thier sightings. I think Malasian was a possiblity while off JB Bob [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] Jervis Bay for you non Naval types [thumbsupbig]

Reminds me of an old cartoon, showing the navigator in a small yacht poring over a chart table, littered with charts, books of table, sextant, dividers etc, and with the rest of the crew looking over his shoulder.

He says "Take off your hats - according to my calculations, we are in Westminster Abbey!"

More seriously, the prize for "a method of determining longitude at sea" offered by the 1714 Longitude Act, eventually won by John Harrison for his invention of the chronometer, is generally thought to have been prompted by the Scilly Naval Disaster in 1707, when the RN lost four ships and around 2,000 lives, including the navy's C-i-C Admiral Shovell. Two other ships struck rocks, but were able to be saved. The ensuing investigation found the logged positions of surviving ships, sailing in company, differed by well over a degree, in both Latitude and Longitude. When they hit the Scilly Isles, the navigators thought they were off Ushant, and well clear of land.

bob10

6th April 2019, 08:39 AM

Reminds me of an old cartoon, showing the navigator in a small yacht poring over a chart table, littered with charts, books of table, sextant, dividers etc, and with the rest of the crew looking over his shoulder.

He says "Take off your hats - according to my calculations, we are in Westminster Abbey!"

More seriously, the prize for "a method of determining longitude at sea" offered by the 1714 Longitude Act, eventually won by John Harrison for his invention of the chronometer, is generally thought to have been prompted by the Scilly Naval Disaster in 1707, when the RN lost four ships and around 2,000 lives, including the navy's C-i-C Admiral Shovell. Two other ships struck rocks, but were able to be saved. The ensuing investigation found the logged positions of surviving ships, sailing in company, differed by well over a degree, in both Latitude and Longitude. When they hit the Scilly Isles, the navigators thought they were off Ushant, and well clear of land.

Bad navigation is bad navigation. Harrison's story is one for the ages.[ From the book " Longitude " by DAVA SOBEL.] With no formal education or apprenticeship to any watchmaker, he constructed a series of virtually friction free clocks requiring no lubrication or cleaning, impervious to rust, that kept their moving parts perfectly balanced in relation to one another , regardless of how the world pitched and tossed about them. He did away with the pendulum, and combined metals in such a way that when one expanded or contracted with changes of temperature , the other counteracted the change and kept the clock's rate constant. His every success was parried by members of the scientific elite. So much so that the commissioners charged with awarding the longitude prize changed the contest rules when they saw fit, so as to favour the chances of astronomers over the likes of Harrison and his fellow " mechanics ".

The prize was equal to a Kings ransom, several million dollars in today's money. The search for a solution to the longitude problem assumed legendary proportions, on a par with discovering the fountain of youth, the secret of perpetual motion, or the formula for transforming lead into gold. The governments of the great maritime nations including Spain, the Netherlands and certain city-states of Italy offered jackpot purses for a workable method. The British government in its famed Longitude Act of 1714, set the highest bounty of all, a Kings ransom. Harrison struggled for 40 years, when after years of political intrigue , international warfare, academic backbiting , scientific revolution, and economic upheaval, and under the wing of King George 111, he received his full monetary award. The story of Admiral Sir Clowdisley Shovell , and the lost English fleet, deserves a stand alone post.

Hogarthde

6th April 2019, 08:48 AM

bob10

6th April 2019, 09:08 AM

Admiral Sir Clowdisley Shovell and the lost English fleet.

Returning home victorious from Gibralter after skirmishes with the French mediterranean forces , Sir Clowdisley could not beat the heavy autumn overcast.Fearing the ships might flounder on coastal rocks, the Admiral summoned all his Navigators to put their heads together. the consensus opinilon placed the Englkish fleet safely west of Ile d'Ouessant, an island outpost of the Brittany peninsula. But as they continued north, they discovered to their horror that they had misgauged their longitude near the Scilly isles. These tiny islands about 20 miles from the SW tip of England point to Lands End like a path of stepping stones, and on that foggy night of October 22, 1707, the Scillies became unmarked tombstones for two thousand of Clowdisley's troops.

The flagship, the Association, struck first . She sank within minutes, with all hands. Two more ships, the Eagle and the Romney, hit the rocks and went down. Four of the five warships were lost. Only two men washed ashore alive. Clowdisley and one other. Now comes the WTF moment.
In the previous 24 hours Clowdisley was approached by a sailor, a member of Associations crew , who claimed to have kept his own reckoning of the fleets location. Such subversive navigation by an inferior was forbidden in the RN, as the unnamed seaman knew. However the danger appeared so enormous, by his calculations, he risked his neck to make his concerns known to the Officers. Admiral Shovell had the man hanged for mutiny on the spot.!! And the Admiral? laying on the beach, exhausted from his long swim, he was murdered by a local woman who fell in love with the emerald ring on his finger. She confessed to her clergyman on her deathbed, producing the ring as evidence. Stranger than fiction

bob10

6th April 2019, 09:11 AM

Blknight.aus

6th April 2019, 06:18 PM

While I technically agree with you, does it mean that we should have had the big millennium party on 2000-2001, instead of 1999-2000?

Aaron

I solved that problem the Australian way... "you dont know if you need to have the party in 2000 or 2001? do both"

bob10

6th April 2019, 06:20 PM

I solved that problem the Australian way... "you dont know if you need to have the party in 2000 or 2001? do both"

Still in Melbourne?

Blknight.aus

6th April 2019, 06:56 PM

Still in Melbourne?

near enough

bob10

6th April 2019, 07:41 PM

near enough

And your life is good?

bob10

9th April 2019, 07:26 PM

This is a crew of the RNLI, at a concert. Among the best seamen in the World, you don't get much more nautical than that.

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS5xR7jBxDw)

4bee

9th April 2019, 08:10 PM

Righto,...... being a bushman , and field engineer, I understand some of what you men are saying . Now my question ,( and no I have not consulted google , or Nate ,).....

why the deviation in the state boundary of S.A. at the Murray River ,at the intersection of N.S.W. and Vic. .?

Have pondered that one myself for years Please tell us why? O Please?

The Admiral probably needed one of these to tell him where he was off Ushant.

French owned with RADAR Transponder, HF, Lights etc In fact a Floating Lighthouse. Also could be used as a Refuge for survivors of small wrecked craft.

Anchored off Ushant as part of the Traffic Separation Scheme in the English Channel.

A LANBY BUOY ie. Large Automatic Navigation BuoY

Actually the turning point for Tankers & other large vessels well out to sea etc to stop them running aground, ah la Torey Canyon Disaster.150009,Torrey Canyon oil spill - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrey_Canyon_oil_spill)

Hogarthde

10th April 2019, 02:46 AM

Thanks Bob for the story, however it is , not to me anyway, conclusive.
The article mentions a dogleg in the surveyed line, I didnÂ’t see it as a deviation near the Murray, ...the whole boundary line is minutes off 141 degrees , right from the Great Southern Ocean .

I am assuming
the survey would start at the sea.

4bee

10th April 2019, 08:43 AM

bob10

10th April 2019, 07:36 PM

Bob, while chasing some of your links I came across this item which I thought you may be interested in, you being a Navy type I understand. [smilebigeye] RN not RAN but still of interest.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/10742588/Surgeon-Rear-Admiral-Frank-Golden-obituary.html (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/10742588/Surgeon-Rear-Admiral-Frank-Golden-obituary.html).

Thank you so very much for that. What a story, that man achieved so much for the welfare of seafarers, and sacrificed so much of himself, in doing it, all I can say is, bravo Zulu.

bob10

10th April 2019, 07:38 PM

4bee

10th April 2019, 08:00 PM

Thank you so very much for that. What a story, that man achieved so much for the welfare of seafarers, and sacrificed so much of himself, in doing it, all I can say is, bravo Zulu.

Well done, indeed. [bigsmile1]

bob10

10th April 2019, 08:08 PM

I feel I should explain the shanty, Bully in the alley.Now from what I can gather , the best explanation is that back in the day, the masts on the ships were not stayed well, and when in rough seas, or tacking, the masts would flop from side to side, and this made the helmsmans job difficult, the ship would move either side of the designated course , moving like a drunken sailor on his way back from the tavern. It was called bully in the alley, the alley being the designated course, bulley being the difficulty controlling a bull in the field. It came to mean a sailor on his way back to the ship under the weather. There are a few other explanations , this is just one. Another nautical song.

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUTh_kUgi3Q&list=RDG92phPXdpKY&index=17)

bob10

10th April 2019, 08:18 PM

The clock that changed the World, the BBC show about Harrison's clock.

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-g27KS0yiY)

bob10

11th April 2019, 06:28 PM

Here is a list, from the Gun Plot web site of Naval customs, expressions, traditions and superstitions. Rather a long read, and of course is RN oriented.

NAVAL CUSTOMS, EXPRESSIONS, TRADITIONS AND SUPERSTITIONS.

Prior to commencing, I would ask you to transport yourself to the year 2025, and imagine that you are sitting in your Club reading the back files of one of our present newspapers. In glancing through the paper, you see the following notice:-

SAD FATALITY

“In flying over London today, Flying Officer John William Jones, in endeavouring to make a forced landing, crashed in St. James’ Park. The pilot was seriously injured and his passenger, killed. The Pilot subsequently reported, when in Hospital, that his engine conked.” You will perhaps be
ps be puzzled by the expression conked, and you will hail a fellow crony in your Club and ask for enlightenment, and will probably receive a reply of this nature:- “My dear fellow, I don’t know. I wish I did, but in those days, nobody took the trouble to write down for the benefit of future generations the meanings of words which were in everyday use.” This is the position in which most students and searchers in the field of old Naval expressions find themselves at the present time.

THE ORIGIN OF THE NAVY

In dealing with this subject, I think it only fair to make some reference to the origin of the Navy, and to the type of ships of which it was composed. The English man-o’-war’s man traces his descent from the institution at least nine centuries old - namely, the Anglo-Saxon Buscarles or Butsecarles and he connects through the Cinque Ports Navy directly with the Royal Navy of our own times. The Butsecarles were a Naval fighting force which corresponded to the Huscarles or Royal Bodyguard of landsmen, who were troops of Canute, Godwin and Harold. They were picked men and maintained to fight the King’s ships, and were usually quartered near the mouth of the Thames and along the south coast of England. In peace time, as a rule, those of the Buscarles who were not actively employed in warlike operations were used either as sea police or for manning the ships on the King’s private affairs. This force was kept until the reign of Henry I., when they were amalgamated with the Cinque Ports

Navy from which they had up to this time been entirely separate. From the Buscarles we learn that in the 11th Century the ships were each under a Batsuen or Boatswain or Husband who commanded her crew in action, and acted at all times as Master, Pilot, or Steersman for which service he was paid 10 Marks. In the Merchant Service at the present time the person charged with the outfitting of the ship is still called the ship’s Husband. Edward The Confessor’s principal ship carried a Rector or Captain, as well as a Boatswain or Steersman. The rowers, who took orders from the Boatswain, were paid 8 Marks a man, and were provided with provisions and clothing. The latter consisted of rough woollen cloth dyed blue; we thus see that Blue, even at this date, was considered an appropriate colour for use at sea. In this respect we
can go back still further, namely, to about 55 AD, when we find a class of ship named the Pictae which rowed 20 oars a side and was coated with wax below water. In order to be invisible at sea they were furnished with grey blue sails and manned by oarsmen dressed in a similar colour. With such ships, the Counts of the Saxon shore watched the coasts, and later, Carasausius and Ellectus held British seas against all comers. This is probably one the earliest examples of camouflage in maritime affairs which is mentioned in history.

Beside the Boatswain already mentioned, we find the Cogswain, who apparently was the Officer in charge of a Cog, a different type of vessel manned by 39 mariners, with one Master in charge and two Constables as assistants.

This vessel was popular in the reign of Edward I., at which time the term Rector was going out of use. I will deal later with the powers and position of the Boatswain when we meet him subsequently. The old Saxon type of ship called a Bus has its memory perpetuated at the present day. On the east coast, up to very recently, a sailing drifter was frequently referred to as a Herring Bus. In 1645, during the Long Parliament, instructions were issued for general Courts Martial to be held for the trial of Captains and Commanders, and for the ship Courts Martial on Officers of junior rank. The Boatswain and Gunner were authorised to serve on the court on a Ship Court Martial. Courts Martial probably originated from the Court of Chivalry, of which no trace now remains except as found in the court of the Earl Marshal. The jurisdiction of Courts Martial were prescribed by an Act of Richard II., 1377-1399.

To spin a cuffer is the same as spinning a yarn, but the more improbable the story, the more does the term Cuffer apply.

The term Bum boat is still with us and is probably an abbreviated form of Bombard boat which was so called because provisions and liquor used to be carried by these boats in large receptacles, shaped like and called after the old-fashioned bombard or mortar. Receptacles so named are referred to by Shakespeare.

A Bombard was also the old name for a type of two-masted vessel in use in the Mediterranean. Concerning Mother Carey’s Chickens, better known as Stormy Petrels, Captain Glasscock writing in 1826 concerning sailors’ superstitions, describes how the “TIGER” East Indiaman, eastward bound for the Cape, was persistently followed by bad weather, and when off the Cape nearly foundered. A passenger called Mother Carey appeared to have a peculiar affinity to the birds, and was concluded by the ship’s company to be a witch. The sailors were debating the question of putting the good lady overboard, when she settled the matter by springing over the side and going down in a blue flame! The birds, which had assumed monstrous proportions, vanished in a moment and left the “Titan” to pursue her voyage in peace. These birds it appears have been known as Mother Carey’s Chickens ever since. To marry the Gunner’s daughter was an expression which meant being laid over a gun to receive a flogging.

To buy goose meant to receive a flogging, although when used in the following sense “I see no reason to buy goose for you,” it means, I see no reason why I should stand a rub for your misdemeanours. Goose without gravy was a flogging of so light a nature that blood was not drawn. Up to quite recent times many old fashioned Captains referred to their ship’s companies as “My People.” In many old logs we find the expression in frequent use and see references such as ThePeople engaged in knotting and splicing the rigging. .

Captains still refer to my ship, my boats, my First Lieutenant, etc., but in the days when Masters were borne on the books of ships, no Captain ever spoke of him as “My Master”! He was always referred to as the Master.

A Stone Frigate is a term used for a shore appointment.

To Strike down is the correct term to use when lowering such articles as ammunition, stores, provisions, etc., into their respective magazines or store rooms in order that they may be stowed. The word Starboard is derived from the old Saxon steeraboard or steerboard, which was a paddle shipped on the starboard quarter to act as a rudder.

Larboard was the opposite side, and corresponds with the term port. I have heard it suggested that the term Larboard was a corruption of Leeboard, but cannot vouch for this. The Italians derived the word Starboard from Questa borda - meaning “This side,” and Larboard from Quella borda - that side, this being abbreviated to Starborda and Larborda. The term Port is not of very modern origin, as it is mentioned in Arthur Pitt’s voyage in 1580. I don’t know whether there is any truth in the suggestion that the term Port was derived froth the custom of preferably placing this side toward the shore when going alongside, owing to the fact that the leeboard could be easily unrigged so as to avoid being damaged, while the steerboard would be required to navigate the slip into the required position. Flying the blue pigeon is sometimes used as an expression for heaving the lead. With a good swing the lead can be made to emit a cooing sound rather like a wood pigeon.

To Splice the Main Brace. There are many different explanations concerning the origin of this expression but it is generally considered that this operation was one of such rarity that it merited the serving out of an extra tot. The Main Brace, being one of the heaviest pieces of running rigging in the ship, was probably seldom spliced, but presumably renewed instead. While serving in North Russia I have seen the main brace spliced by order twice in one day, on the news of the declaration of Peace, on July 19th, 1919. The expression was certainly well known in 1750.

In 1917, H.M. ships Sir Thomas Picton and Earl of Peterborough (Monitors) were lent to the Italians to carry out a bombardment and were supplied with a large carboy of wine by the Italian Commander-in-Chief, and Chief of Staff, and the main brace was spliced during the evening. I do not know of any other occasion when H.M. Ships have ever spliced the main brace with liquor supplied by a Foreign Government.

Short Service Men were often referred to as Selborne’s Light Horse. Short service, was introduced when LORD SELBORNE was First Lord.

To settle a matter with a loose foretopsail means, of course, to end or evade an argument by departing. To pay one’s debts with the topsail sheet means to depart without settling one’s dues. A rope is said to hang Judas when it is insecurely belayed or False when taking any strain. To Sway the main rather infers to swagger, or to assert oneself in an aggressive manner, and probably derives its origin from the fact that in former days everything appertaining to the mainmast, in sail drill, was particularly the charge of the Executive Officer.

To trice your ears out on a bowline means to listen attentively. The weather leeches used to be hauled out by bowlines to enable a ship to sail closer to the wind. The bowline bridles were secured to the cringles on the leech by the well-known bowline knot.

As long as the maintop bowline meant any long, drawn out affair, and was often used to describe an interminably long glory. The main top bowline was generally regarded as the longest rope in the ship. To hoist a stocking to your jib, or a bonnet to your topsail, means to expedite one’s movements in the same way as the speed of a ship used to be increased by an additional spread of canvas laced to a sail. Those for the jib were called Stockings, and those for the topsails Bonnets.

A ship’s masts or funnels are said to Rake when they lean aft. Should they lean forward, they are said to have Bos’un’s Pride, or to tumble forward. This expression is due to the fact that the Bos’un was the Officer who used to be (under tire Navigating Officer) in charge of the ship’s rigging, and whose particular duty it was to square yards and set up all rigging after the completion of any evolution aloft. Thus any very conscientious Bos’un might be over-zealous in setting up or squaring off the rigging, with the result that he might give Bos’un’s Pride to a mast or spar, due to an excess of zeal.

To set up backstays for anyone, means to smooth over the results of their faults, and again refers to the fact that the duty of the Bos’un was, after an evolution aloft, to square off the yards and rigging and see that all was left shipshape.

A black dog for a white monkey meant a quid pro quo. A Banyan Party nowadays has come to mean a cheery party, possibly in connection with a picnic. Banyan Days were formerly Mondays. Wednesdays and Fridays, and were days on which no meat was issued. This restriction was removed in 1884. The term is derived from a religions sect in the East who believed it wicked to eat of any creature endued with life. It would appear that the present meaning of the term is derived from the fact that men were accustomed to save up odds and ends of their rations in order to make delicacies to tide them over the fast days.

Like a pusser’s shirt on a handspike describes any gross misfit or any badly fitting suit of clothes or sail.

A King John’s man is a person of particularly small stature.

Dodging Pompey is skulking from any particular duty. Some say that the town of Portsmouth is so called for the following reason, and I am indebted to the Town Clerk of Portsmouth for this information. Some years ago, Miss Agnes Weston, in the early days of her career, was talking to an assembly of sailors and she told them the story of Pompey, the Roman General - of his battles and the success he won on the field of battle, and of his subsequent decline in popularity when he entered the political arena, and his ultimate murder, and thereupon somebody in the room exclaimed Pour old Pompey. This seems to have amused the audience, the exclamation caught on, and from that day it has been associated with the name of Portsmouth in the Services and locally.

Others consider that the nickname of Pompey it the drunkard’s inarticulate method of pronouncing the words “Portsmouth Point,” which was the neighbourhood at which the sailor in olden days spent his time in hilarious conviviality. I am inclined to believe the latter explanation as it is certainly of older origin.

Regarding the name of Guzzle for Devonport, the following is the explanation rendered by the Town Clerk of Plymouth, who considers that in the old days, after cruising about for long periods on indifferent and insufficient rations, the Navy always looked forward to good food in the shape of

Devonshire cream and butter when they put in at Plymouth.

A Tom Cox’s traverse is described by Admiral Smith, writing in 1867, as Up one hatch and down another, or three turns round the longboat and a pull at the scuttle. I have also heard that it was the name of a tyro in navigation who took three weeks beating round the South Foreland. In any case, its meaning is the longest possible method of getting on with a job of work.

It is better than two nibbies in a hook pot. A nibby is the slang term for a ship’s biscuit, and a hook pot was an article which only disappeared in recent years. A ship’s biscuit was placed in a hook pot to soak in front of the fire, and was the least hospitality which could be offered from one person to another.

Touching ship’s biscuits, it is very rare to hear broken ship’s biscuits referred to as Midshipman’s nuts, and in present-day gun rooms among the customs which have died out is the ancient one of making Midshipman’s goose or Crab, which consisted of pickles, salt beef, salt pork, ground biscuit, and any other commodity which came handy, including cheese.

Legs like a Torpoint ropemaker is one of the many time-honoured jests borrowed from the West Country, and means a person who is bandy-legged. It was described to me by an old West Country boatswain as a person who is so bandy-legged that he carries his knees a-burton, and his calves before-all. This affliction was presumably caused by the practice of straddling the rope while working the Top at some West Country rope walk.

To pull one’s pound refers to the fact that a certain weight of rations were issued in order that a man’s strength might be maintained so as to enable him to do hard manual work. Thus, Lend us your pound here was a request for a man to turn to and exert his utmost strength.

To Lend a hand is to assist in the operation in progress.

To Bear a hand is to be quick or smart in the performance of any task.

Handsomely means slowly or with caution, and Roundly as quick as possible. Both orders are in common use for hoisting boats or working Tackles.

To be at Loggerheads with someone is a well-known phrase which has been borrowed from sea parlance. Loggerheads were balls of iron connected together by an iron bar about three to four feet in length. The balls when heated were used for melting pitch. The balls being so immovably connected were somewhat similar to two persons between whom no chance of a rapprochement existed; they were, moreover, when in use kept at a very high temperature.

The expression Wash out, when used in the sense of to cancel or in erase, came into the Service when slates were used instead of the present-day signal pad and message forms. Its use, alas, has grown until the expression is so hackneyed and misused as to be offensive.

Tom Pepper was a person who, according to nautical tradition, was kicked out of hell for being a bigger liar than His Satanic Majesty. The term is mentioned by J. A. Gardner in his “Recollections,” and appears to have been in use in 1787.

A Rogue’s Yarn is a coloured strand laid up in a Dockyard-made rope, not only to identify its place of manufacture, but to prevent its illicit sale. The following coloured yarns denoted the “Rope walk” at which the rope was laid up: Portsmouth - blue; Devonport - red; Chatham - yellow; and Haulbowline - black.

Andrew Miller is still a slang term for His Majesty’s Navy as a whole, and in my manuscript which disappeared in 1914, it was stated that Andrew Miller was believed to have been a particularly zealous Officer who worked the Press Gang at one time. Officers zealous in these matters were not popular along the waterside of the British Isles, and in support of this I might mention a Tyneside song which I collected some years ago, concerning Captain John Rover, who died on 20th May, 1782. and was buried in Newcastle Cathedral. He made a considerable stir in the Tyneside district during his life, and his funeral was largely attended, but whether as a matter of relief or regret I am unable to state. I am indebted to the Senior Verger, Newcastle Cathedral, for much information concerning him.

A Gobby was a Coastguard, when this force was under the jurisdiction of the Admiralty, and open to Officers and men of the Royal Navy, who were time expired or pensioners, but still fit for coastguard duties. The Coastguard Force is at present under the order of the Board of Trade, and is not so popular with the Naval Service and in consequence the term is not us much in evidence.

A Gobby Ship was an old expression denoting a Soft number, and was a harbour service ship to which “Reserve fleetmen” were drafted on mobilisation. These ships only proceeded to sea on special occasions such as test mobilisations and royal reviews, and we-re regarded as more or less time-serving appointments, with no prospects whatever for any Officer with ambition.

To Celebrate the Siege of Gibraltar is an excuse for a tot. The various sieges of Gibraltar have covered such a period that one is certain to be in order, in the matter of the date, should one care to celebrate it. Gibraltar has withstood thirteen sieges. The SUFFOLK (late 12th Foot) was the senior regiment during the last and most famous siege (from 11th September, 1779, to 12th March, 1783) and was rewarded by the crest of the Castle and Key and the motto “ Montis Insignia Calpe,” which insignia was granted to the Rock by Henry IV of Castille in 1462 after its capture from the Moorish King of Granada. The Suffolk Regiment served as Marines under Sir George Byng and in the Channel Fleet about 1712. Mundungus. Often used to describe any useless and unwanted material of a small nature. It is the correct description for the dust of unmanufactured tobacco leaves and is a dutiable article.

A Killick is the most ancient form of anchor known, and I personally have found it in what must have been almost its original form in the Western Isles of Scotland, Newfoundland, North Russia, China and Japan. A Leading Seaman is commonly called by this title. A Raggie is a friend with whom one shares a rag bag for polishing gear. To Part brass rags is a sign of the dissolution of that friendship. Chioque or Shyoake is a beverage well known to the merchant seaman both on the “Barbary coast” in San Francisco and in Australian ports. It was the accumulated heeltaps of all the glasses and was usually retailed at about fourpence per gallon. Of course only the disreputable bars dealt in this commodity.

Sucking the monkey is the unlawful or illicit obtaining of liquor, and derives its origin from the old pattern rum tub which was known as a Monkey.

Monkey is also a nautical diminution, e.g.: Monkey boom. Monkey gaff. Monkey jacket, Monkey Fxle., Monkey tail. etc.

Saltash luck . Those seamen who know the West Country, and I presume there are a few who do not, will unhesitatingly agree: that a Wet shirt and no fish is very typical of the luck of a Saltash fisherman.

A Smart Ticket is the old name for a Hurt Certificate which is a document granted to an Officer or man who is injured or wounded in the performance of his duty. He cannot be granted this certificate if injured owing to his own negligence, and the Officer issuing the document must certify as to the sobriety of the claimant at the time the injury was received. Smart Money was the monetary compensation awarded on the production at the Smart Ticket.

To have one’s boots chalked. It used to be the practice for the Captain of a top or turret to try and chalk the soles of one’s boots when going; aloft for the: first time or an entering the turret, and if he succeeded the victim was supposed to pay his footing.

A Gibby has been the: sailor’s name for many years for his spoon. His knife is a Skinine; the word, however, is fast dying out. It may have been derived from the: Gaelic word “skian,” meaning knife. His fork is a Port oar. This, on the face, of it, is quaint, as it is presumed that he used his fork with his heft hand, and. strictly speaking its should therefore be a Starboard oar.

Gib was an old term for a staff with a crook.

Mess traps of this nature are a comparatively recent article of supply in the Service, and formerly were either dispensed with altogether or bought as private property.

A receptacle which is empty is said let have a South wind in it, and a mixture which is half spirit and half water is known, as a Nor’Wester. The more northerly the wind stands, the more the proportion of spirit. An East wind has never been popular, whereas a wind to the South’ard of West in home Latitudes, although wet, both meteorologically and according to this definition, contained a lesser proportion of spirits, and lacked popularity for that reason.

The term White mice is an epithet applied to those deservedly unpopular persons, happily rare, who at various times have been employed by the Police: and others to spy on their shipmates. They are also known as Narks, which, in thieves’ jargon, also means informers.

To walk round someone Like a cooper round a cask means, to completely vanquish an opponent or to be able to deal with him at one’s leisure and with little fear of retaliation.

Ullage is the residue remaining in any box or cask whose: contents save: been taken into service. It is also an expression of contempt for a person who is slow witted and of little use.

An Urk is a similar type of witless individual, but the term is more forcible and is of modern origin.

A Winger is the general term to denote any boy or very young seaman who is adopted as a particular friend by an old and staid seaman. The term is far from being a complimentary one. To Go to wind’ard of anybody derives its origin from the time when the weather gauge was the all-important thing in Naval tactics, and is synonymous with the term to Lee bow somebody. It was at the battle of the 12th April, 1782, that Rodney’s Flag Captain, Sir Charles Douglas, burst unceremoniously into the Admiral’s cabin, and in the excitement of the moment announced to the Admiral that “God had given him his enemy on the lee bow.” (De Grasse off Martinique.) Among the numerous Naval Stores carried in H.M. ships, we find Shovel Navigator. These tools have nothing to do with the Navigating Officer, but take their name from the time that the Lincolnshire canals were constructed about 1830, for inland navigation, and this peculiar type of tool was used in the work, and the workmen came to be known as Navvies (an abbreviation from Navigators). In H.M.S. Queen Elizabeth, our first entirely oil-fired battleship, a Shovel Navigator, suitably mounted, used to be displayed, surmounting the motto, “Lest we forget.” This motto of course referred to the remembrance of the heavy manual work, and consequent dirt, entailed by “Coaling ship,” which was always treated as an important evolution.

A Channel fleet dish-up is the somewhat unhygienic method adopted, due to shortage of water, of using the same water for washing up all plates and mess utensils, and almost corresponds to the shore term of a “lick and a promise.” During the long blockades oft Brest, under Admiral Cornwallis, the shortage of water was often severely felt, and it is possible that the term originated at this time. We talked just now of a Cooper, which most useful rating is unfortunately dying out of the Service, owing to the prevalence of tinned provisions. In fact, universally, coopering is no longer the job it formerly was, but there are few Coopers now who know that the small anvil that was part of a Cooper’s tools is properly called a Cooper’s Study.

A clumsy, awkward person is described as being as handy as a cow in a spitkid. Kid is the term for any small wooden tub. Spitkid is the name given to the wooden tubs, of about two feet in diameter, which are issued for use as spittoons in the men’s smoking places. In the older ships, where the smoking places were always very crowded, there was often great difficulty experienced in accurately hitting off the interior of this receptacle, and in some ships it was customary to allow a margin of 12 inches outside, this area being bounded by a chalked circle. Woe betide the man who not only missed the spitkid, but failed to register in the circle. His crime was unforgivable. He was generally sentenced to carry a spitkid for so many days or weeks, and his shipmates were expected not to neglect their opportunities. I remember the case of one Able Seaman, a Gunlayer First Class, whose appearances were so frequent at the Captain’s defaulter’s table for the crime in question that eventually the exasperated Captain reduced the man to the rating of Gunlayer Second Class, “For being a damned bad shot.”

We frequently use the term W-a-i-s-t-e-r (not W-a-s-t-e-r). It was formerly thought, “That he who was not good enough for anything else was good enough for the waist.” In other words, an unskilled rating who did the coolie work in the waist, whereas the smartest of the older men were stationed on the fo’csle and the smart young ones on the upper yards.

A Donkey, being the almost universal beast of burden, the term is used to denote a Naval artisan’s tool chest, a sailmaker’s or tailor’s sewing machine, or any mechanical contrivance which saves manual labour.

A straw-filled mattress is known as a Donkey’s breakfast.

While speaking of Upper Yardmen, I will refer to an expression which is almost dead, namely, to be- able to do something Because you wear the tuck. I learnt this from a very old sea officer, whose explanation was as follows: The Royal Yardmen of a ship considered themselves, very naturally, as the salt of the earth, and in consequence, before the Uniform Regulations were unforced, they used to wear a tuck or pleat in the backs of their jumpers or coats, which was fastened in the centre with a little bow. They had exclusive use of certain public houses ashore, and took care that folk who, in their opinion, were less worthy, did not intrude. They were particularly careful when onshore to dress themselves in the height of nautical fashion so that everyone should know exactly what they themselves thought of their own prowess. Cmdr. Robinson, who is one of the greatest authorities on old customs connected with the Navy, tells me that he can find no trace of this in the many hundreds of prints in his possession, nor, as a Midshipman, does he remember seeing a jacket of this nature or hearing the expression. Nevertheless I am certain that the custom was in vogue at one period, although it may not have been universal. The expression finally came to mean that unless you are particularly smart you need not expect any extra privileges.

The term Fanny Adams came into use in the Navy about the year 1867, when tinned mutton was introduced as a part of the ration. The nickname is ascribed to the fact that a somewhat notorious murder took place on April 24th. 1867, at Alton, Hants. The murderer was Frederick Baker, aged 29, a solicitor’s clerk, and the victim was Fanny Adams, a child aged 9. Baker subsequently cut up the body and tried to conceal his crime, but was tried at Winchester Assizes on December 5th, 1867, and in due course hanged. In private life he was Secretary to a Debating Society and a Sunday School Teacher. Prior to the issue of the present-day Mess Traps, the men were accustomed to use the empty Fanny Adams tins, and the name “Fanny” thus came to be applied to the present receptacle which is now officially issued. Tinned mutton is no longer issued as a ration, but the nickname is still applied to a corned beef which is in general use today.

In the Merchant Service the nickname of “Harriet Lane” is more usually heard. She was murdered by one Henry Wainwright, a brush maker, of 215, Whitechapel Road, who buried the body September, 1874. H. Wainwright and Alice Day, his accomplice, were tried by Lord Chief Justice Cockburn., 22nd Nov. - 1st Dec. 1874, also Thomas Wainwright. Day was discharged for lack of evidence. Thomas Wainwright received 7 years for being an accessory. Henry Wainwright hanged at Newgate, December 21st. 1875.

The arrest of the criminals was largely due to the efforts of one Alfred Philip Stokes. In 1866, a plant for preparing tinned beef and mutton was installed at Deptford under the direction of a representative of Messrs. Hogarth’s of Aberdeen and issues to the Fleet commenced from this source in 1867.

Salt Beef was not issued after 1904, although existing stocks were used until exhausted, and lasted till about 1913. Salt Pork was withdrawn in 1926.

Jack Shilloe, Jack-a-lift (abbreviated from Jack outside the lift) is a devil-may-care, reckless individual, sometimes described as “One who would spit to windward and call the cat a long-tailed ------d.” Of course, to spit in any way promiscuously entailed the direst penalties, and to abuse the ship’s cat or cast reflections on its parentage was a method of ensuring a run of ill luck.

A Fork in the beam, most of us have suffered from and has been handed down from the time when in the same Mess, i.e., the Midshipman’s berth, were men over 40 years of age and boys of 11 and 12. When the grog had circulated of an evening, and the talk became neither prudish or refined, it was considered high time that the “Youngsters”, as they were termed, should leave the “Oldsters” to themselves. A fork was put in the beam, and the last youngster to leave the mess was generally hauled back and Firked or Cobbed for his slackness in obeying.

There is an old saying that if one goes to sea and meets with bad weather someone has neglected to pay for his amusement when on shore. As late as 1913, when coming home in a certain ship from Vigo, we encountered heavy weather in the Bay. In accordance with the Gunroom custom, we decided to hold a sing-song on rounding Ushant, but owing to the weather, the Gunroom piano would not remain upright, while the water was up to the coamings of the mess. Lots were ordered to be drawn by the junior members of the mess so as to discover who had contravened the ancient custom and made himself a Jonah by perpetrating the aforementioned crime. Strangely enough, the lot fell on the Assistant Clerk, who was tried by Gunroom Court Martial, and although ably defended by his confrère the Captain’s Clerk, was universally found “Guilty.” He duly received a dozen with a dirk scabbard, and by eight o’clock that night the weather had sufficiently calmed to allow the sing-song to take place. This is a fact, but I do not know whether there is any connection between the justice meted out to the Assistant Clerk (who ultimately confessed to the charge being true) and the change for the better in the meteorological conditions.

Breadcrumbs was the order to junior members of the Gunroom to stop their ears. Fishbones, to shut their eyes. Match Boxes, to shut their mouths and maintain strict silence. The order Match Boxes cannot be of very ancient origin, as “Friction Matches “ of any sort were not invented until 1829.

A Spithead Pheasant, or a deep-sea or one-eyed steak, is a kipper. In the days before the use of the pipe degenerated, Boatswain’s Mates have also been known as Spithead Nightingales.

The Cook of the mess is still entitled by custom to what are known as Plushers which is a term undoubtedly derived from the French word “Plus,” and generally means the residue of any rum apportioned to the mess after each man has had his share. The term is generally used for perquisites.

When passing a dish at the table, and a person helps himself, leaving the person passing it to hold the dish, is at sea considered so inexcusable as to warrant the person passing the dish to drop it, the charge for breakage being made against the one who helps himself from the dish with out holding; it. The latter may, however, claim exemption should he make use of the expression Excuse the Marine. The reason for this; is that when the ship is rolling it is often necessary to hold your food with one hand and feed yourself with the other. If one spends one’s lime holding dishes for others, one is apt to lose one’s own share. Owing to the fact that a Marine in former times was looked upon very much as a soldier and not versed its sea manners and customs, he was held excused.

A Dead Marine, of course. is well known as an empty bottle that has done its duty and is ready to do it again; but some have been known to suggest that the term is derived from the fact that an empty bottle always floats head up, and it leas been rumoured that a Marine will do this even when dead, owing to the traditional size of his feet. I think the former explanation is certainly the most just and decidedly the most apt. It is supposed that the Duke of Clarence made use of this term on one occasion and the event is commemorated in verse by Colonel W. Drury, R.M.

A Soldier’s Wind is a breeze which enables a boat to reach its objective without wearing or tacking.

Another old term for sailing with the wind abeam or on the quarter was Lasking.

A Smart Nipper means, nowadays. a boy with his wits about him, but we can trace it back to the time when the anchor was weighed by means of a messenger which was nippered to the cable. It was the duty of the boy’s to pass and cast off the nippers as necessary.

The Devil to pay and no pitch hot. The “Devil” is one of the hardest seams to paint, being the upper outboard strake. If the pitch was not hot, the job was rendered even more difficult.

Between the Devil and the Deep Sea does not refer to His Satanic Majesty, but to the aforementioned plank, meaning a person who was in this position had nothing between him and a watery grave.

To Go through the Hoop was formerly a method of gauging hammocks so that they should have a uniform appearance when stowed in the nettings. If any doubt existed as to the size of a lashed up hammock, it was put through a hoop, and if it failed to pass, the owner was punished. A hammock that went through too easily and presented a skimpy appearance was, and is still, known as a Greyhound lash-up.

The Sun is over the fore Yard-arm meant that the sun had attained sufficient altitude and the day was sufficiently far advanced, to take what is known as a Nooner.

In this connection, I might refer to the expression a Long Ship, which means that the hospitality of the mess is somewhat meagre, and presumably originated with the idea that it was a far cry from the Wardroom pantry to the Mess.

To take the can back for anyone means to take the blame for someone’s faults, and at the same time to gain no advantage by so doing.

A Shifting Backstay is the expression used to denote a person who is made the tool of another. It is sometimes used to describe a fair-weather friend. ‘

Two hands for the King. In the Merchant Service the expression is One hand for the ship and one hand for yourself, but in the Royal Navy the expression has long been current. Two hands for the King - in other words, to get on with the job, no matter what the consequences to yourself may be.

Cutting a Dido is an expression of comparatively recent date, and dates from the time when the “Dido,” which was a particularly clean ship serving on the Mediterranean Station about 30 years ago, had, on certain occasions, paraded round the Fleet before coming to an anchor, in order to display her extraordinarily smart appearance.

To Sham Abraham means to malinger, and derives its name from a ward in Bedlam which was appropriated for the reception of idiots. This ward was named “Abraham,” and is cited by a writer named Burton in the “Anatomy of Melancholia,” written in the year 1621. In everybody’s mess, but nobody’s watch, is an expression which describes a workshy, fair-weather friend

One of My Lord Mayor’s men is synonymous with the term a King’s hard bargain and dates from the time when the Lord Mayor, who, as Chief Magistrate of the City of London. frequently gave the option to delinquents appearing at his Court of serving in His Majesty’s Navy or being committed to gaol. It is worthy of remark that the two were considered similar punishments. Even Dr. Johnson once remarked, although he knew nothing of nautical affairs, that he “Could not understand why people’ should go to sea when there were plenty of gaols on shore.”

Different ships , different long splices, is the nautical equivalent of “Autres temps, autres moeurs.”

A Rat in the forechains. To tell this to a Thames Bargee is to bring down on one’s head a storm of invective which there is no stopping and is due to the fact that rats are commonly believed to leave a sinking ship; there is another and less polite cause. If, however, one wishes to get the better of a bargee one has only to ask him, “Who ate the puppy pie near Marlow Bridge?” The story is this: At Marlow Bridge there formerly stood an inn noted for its pies, and the pantry window was so placed that bargees passing through the bridge used frequently to steal the pies. Mine Host discovered this and one day made a pie from a litter of drowned puppies and left it in a tempting position near the window. The bait was taken by a passing bargee, who ate the pie with relish, until subsequently informed by the innkeeper of the nature of its contents. This remark has been known to leave a Thames bargee speechless.

A Dover Court was all talkers and no hearers, and I have heard it suggested that it originated from the maritime Courts held at Dover in which even to-day one hears English, French, Dutch and Flemish spoken by foreigners who are sometimes forced to attend for crimes committed in connection with the North Sea Fishery Act.

A Scarborough Warning is to let something go by the run and without seeing that everyone was clear, i.e., with no warning at all. The expression is of very ancient origin, as is also Jedburgh Justice, which in the old moss trooping days meant to hang first and try the case afterwards.

A Parliament heel was the name given by sailors to the method of inspecting, cleaning and ascertaining the rottenness of the ship’s under water timbers by heeling her over whilst still afloat, and shows that even in former days that august institution was not held in particularly high esteem by the men of His Majesty’s Navy.

It was during an operation of this nature that the “ROYAL GEORGE’ foundered with the loss of Admiral Kempenfelt and most of her ship’s company.

To Do Something for Toni Collins, or Tom Collins, whether or no (i.e., is agreeable or not). Tom Collins was a man of peculiar character who, I think, flourished about the middle of the 18th Century. He, apparently served as Captain of the Heads and to-day a ‘Job for Tom Collins’ or “To see Torn Collins” amounts to the same as Hobson’s Choice, i.e., a matter of necessity and that there is no way of getting out of it.

A Galley packet is nowadays known as any “Buzz” started by the Cook’s mate. The galley was formerly the only place where smoking was permitted and was the spot where the men foregathered to yarn and smoke.

Scaldings is the warning cry of any man carrying a hot dish from the galley, or any liquid which is liable to burn a person if spilled over them.

A Purser’s name is a fictitious name given, for instance, when a man is arrested by the civil police, and certainly traces its origin to the fictitious names placed on the list by unscrupulous Pursers in order that they might draw the pay end allowances.

To Risk the run is an old term which was in use with the old sailing convoys and meant that if a ship Risked the run she proceeded without escort. In sailing orders issued to me at Portsmouth during the war I remember on one occasion that I was most strictly enjoined to allow no ships to Risk the run, and it is the only time that I have even seen this phrase used in present day documents.

To Swallow the anchor is a thing that comes to every body sooner or later on leaving the sea for good. It implies that you will have no further use for one of the most trusty implements used in connection with the sea.

A Full Due is an expression meaning for ever or for a very long period, e.g., anything lost overboard and irrecoverable, is said to have gone for a full due. Likewise a rope which will not be used for a long time may be belayed for a full due.

To be Gazetted. This term is derived from the word “Gazette,” a small coin used in the Adriatic and Levant and formerly the price of the first Venetian newspaper. The Dutch, being a seafaring nation, it is only natural that some of our nautical expressions should be described as Dutch.

A Dutchman’s log is a crude method of computing the speed of a ship through the water. It consists of dropping a floating object overboard at the stem and noting the interval of time taken for it to pass the stern. Thus by a simple calculation the speed of the ship through the water is arrived at providing the length of the ship is known.

A Dutchman’s tackle (or purchase) is a means of expediting the work done by a purchase (or Tackle) by reversing its “Mechanical advantage” and making; it do the work required while: it is being “Overhauled.” A good example of this was the “Gun-loading cage purchase” of the old twelve-inch turrets.

The term is also used to describe a purchase (or tackle) whose efficiency is reduced to a minimum owing to friction, e.g., the hauling part of a tackle being lead round a cleat instead of through a block in a seamanlike manner.

A Dutchman’s Breeches denotes a patch of blue sky to leeward during a storm. Being to leeward its presence is of no material benefit at the moment, but is a hopeful sign of better times to come, in the same way that the patches in a Dutchman’s breeches are a sign that the owner thereof has observed their state of disrepair and is dealing with the situation even though his sartorial efforts do not materially assist in benefiting his personal appearance.

A Dutchman’s pendant is the term used to describe any stray yarn or rope’s end flying loose aloft. This is sometimes wrongly described as an Irish pendant, which ought only to be used when referring; to the frayed “Fly” or end of an ensign, pendant or flag. The same rule applies to the term a dead man, which strictly speaking refers to any yarn or other untidiness lying about on a level with the deck.

A segment of the full arc of a rainbow is known as a Windog and by many it is supposed to be a sign of the approach of gusty, squally weather. ‘

A flat calm is sometimes referred to by the expression the wind is up and down the mast.

To Hog out (say a boat or mess) is derived from the old Hog, which was a stiff brush made of birch twigs and used to scrub a ship’s bottom.

To bear up, as is well known, means to keep further off the wind, the tiller being borne up to windward. The helmsman in ancient days also had to walk up hill to do this when the ship was heeling over. Merchant Service Officers s have informed me that with them the order refers to the ship’s head and is equivalent to Luffing.

To Warm the Bell or Flog the Glass is to advance the clock or to be previous over a job. Generally used in calling; one’s relief to take over the watch. An illegal and unpopular practice which is of little real use, as it is apt to be returned.

Room to swing a cat. This expression is certainly of nautical origin and referred to the cat o’ nine tails. The cat is out of the bag, which is a term in common use on shore, may also have been derived from the fact that the Naval cat o’ nine tails was kept in a red baize bag or cover. The usual practice was for the weapon to be produced from the bag while the culprit was being seized up to the gratings and when no chance remained of him escaping punishment.

The: Bitter (or Better) end was the inboard end of the hemp cable which was secured to the Bites. It was also the better part of the cable, as it was least subjected to wear and tear.

To be sick of the lay is best described in modern parlance as bring “fed up” and a probably derived from the old term “Lay days,” which were a specified period allowed for the uncongenial task of loading and discharging cargo or stores. In the Merchant Service: if the lay days were exceeded without excuse demurrage could be claimed.

Touch and go. When a slip touches ground and goes clear.

Martinet means a strict disciplinarian and takes its name from the French Marquis de Martinet, which still is the nickname in the French Navy for the cat o’ nine tails.

Ditty Box is the receptacle in which a sailor keeps his private small effects and used formerly to be a bag made of “Dittis” or “Manchester Stuff,” in which needles, thread, etc., were kept. Much ink has been spilt over the origin of this term and by many it is believed to be derived from the word “Dight “ (to clean, repair or make good) still in common use in Scotland.

A Snob in Naval parlance means a shoemaker, and a Jew a tailor, while the Indian word Dobhey is used both for men who do laundry work and also for washed clothes.

A Goffer is a non-alcoholic drink such as lemon squash, etc.

Men who privately combine to work at shoe-making, laundry, tailoring, etc., or manage a bar for soft drinks are said to run a snobbing, dobhey, Jewing or Goffer firm, as the case may be.

The present-day sailor seldom makes his own clothes, but refers to his repairing gear as his Jewing bag or, more usually, as his house-wife. To be Yellowed or on the Yellow list was the old phrase whereby an Officer announced that the Board of Admiralty had intimated that he would receive no further employment. Nowadays the expression is To get a blue ticket.

Kagg is a Naval argument and its origin is a mystery. More often than not a Kagg fulfils the well-known definition of “a positive assertion, a flat contradiction and personal abuse.”

To Lurk has its shore-going equivalent of “to sting,” and the expression may be used in many ways, e.g., “To lurk someone for a glass of port,” “To be lurked to take a patrol,” “To lurk someone to keep a middle watch,” etc.

Stepney. It is an old tradition of the East End of London and of many seamen that all children born at sea belong to Stepney parish. The old rhyme runs “He who sails on the wide sea is a parishioner of Stepney.” This rather wide claim to the parochial funds has often been made by paupers who have been born at sea and who used gravely to he sent to Stepney from all parts of the country; but various decisions of the superior Courts have at different times decided against the traditional law cited in “ Thornbury: Old and New London.” vol. 2, page 142.

From time to time the Rector of Stepney has been notified of births and baptisms which have taken place at sea so that they might be included in the parish registers. Such cases, however, are becoming more infrequent than formerly, and it is customary now to note these events in the ship’s log and in due course to inform Somerset House.

A good dressing down is described in nautical language as A dose from the foretopman’s bottle. SUPERSTITIONS.

Fishermen have a superstition that to see a Hare an the way down to the boat brings bad luck, and if one looks at some of the old books concerning witchcraft it will be seen that it was a common belief that witches frequently disguised themselves as hares.

A fisherman wears earrings to make him lively and particularly to improve his eyesight. The fact that the ear had to be pierced may have had something to do with this, as we find that in the old prize fighting days it was a common practice to bite the ear of a man who had been knocked out in order that he might be brought round and so continue the fight.

Many fishermen are averse to using white stones for ballast or a knife with a white handle, but none have been able to tell me why.

Of course, sailing on a Friday or the 13th of the month is of Biblical origin and is well known to everybody. To carry a Parson is often thought to be unlucky, as the Devil was considered to specially lay for the Padre and to visit the ship in order to compete with him, and it was an these grounds that his presence was considered undesireable.

To bring wind it was customary to stick a knife in the mast with the handle pointing to the direction from which the wind was desired. I have heard that this belief was founded on the idea of a storm accompanied by lightning springing up from the wished for direction.

In the West Country I have heard the belief expresses that the souls of old sailors inhabit sea gulls. Of course, the legend of the Ancient Mariner is well known to every-body, but there is a quaint similarity between this belief and that held in North Russia, where it is thought that for three weeks after death the soul of the departed enters into a pigeon. In many other countries similar beliefs also exist.

During the Dwina River campaign I know that villagers who frequently had relatives fighting on both sides were most careful to feed any pigeons that were about and were highly incensed by the fact that British Officers frequently shot these birds for the pot.

To permit a glass to ring is supposed to sound the knell of a sailor who will die by drowning. If, however, the ringing is stopped “The Devil will take two soldiers in lieu.” In conclusion let me quote an extract from a letter of JOHN PAUL JONES to the Naval Committee of

Congress and dated September 14th. 1776, regarding his opinion of what he considers desirable in a Naval Officer:

“It is by no means enough that an Officer of the Navy should be a capable mariner; he must be that of course, and also a good deal more. He should be as well a gentleman of liberal education, refined manners, punctilious courtesy, and nicest sense of personal Honour. Coming now to view the Naval Officer aboard ship and in relation to those under his command, he should be the soul of tact, patience, justice, firmness, and charity. No meritorious act of a subordinate should escape his attention or be left to pass without its reward, even if the reward be only one of approval. Conversely, he should not be blind to a single fault in any subordinate, though at the same time he should be quick and unfailing to distinguish error from malice, thoughtlessness from incompetency, and well-meant shortcomings from heedless or stupid blunder. As he should be universal and impartial in his rewards and approval of merit, so should he be judicial and unbending in his punishment or reproof of misconduct.

In his intercourse with subordinates he should ever maintain the attitude of the Commander, but that need by no means prevent him from the amenities of cordiality or the cultivation of good cheer within the proper limits. Every Commanding Officer should hold with subordinates such relations as will make them constantly anxious to sit at his table, and his bearing towards them should be such as encourages them to express their opinions to him with freedom and to ask his views without reserve. The Navy is essentially and necessarily aristocratic. True as may be the political principles for which we now contend, they can never be perfectly applied or even admitted onboard ship, out of port or off soundings. This may seem a hardship, but it is nevertheless the simplest of truths. Whilst the ships sent forth by Congress may and must fight for the principles of human rights and republican freedom, the ships themselves must be ruled and commanded at sea under a system of absolute despotism.”

I believe this letter is used, as a preamble for the Articles of War of the United States Navy, and I can only think of one better, namely, our own, which is more than 500 years old and states that “It is the Navy whereon, under the good providence of God, the wealth, safety and strength of the Kingdom chiefly depend.” The periodical reading of the Articles of War dates from an order issued by the Lord High Admiral of CHARLES II., and the fact that the Articles of War have been read is considered of such importance that a notation to the effect that they have been read quarterly to the ship’s company has to be signed by the Captain when the ship’s ledger is closed.

Fur the benefit of, and as a sop to those, whose “Principles” and views are to be deplored and who still consider that “The Service has gone to the Devil” and yet do nothing to rectify the matter, I suggest that they lay to heart the following line attributed to Captain Marryat, which were engraved on a board and formerly were displayed in the old Admiralty wailing room, where Officers of a bygone period were detained when Waiting on My Lords in order to seek employment. The board and words now hang in the office of the Drafting Commander, Royal Naval Barracks, Portsmouth. In sore affliction, tried by Gods command, of Patience, Job, the great example stands; But in these days a trial more severe Had been Job’s lot, if God had sent him here.

Saulman1010

12th April 2019, 04:42 PM

This is a crew of the RNLI, at a concert. Among the best seamen in the World, you don't get much more nautical than that.

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS5xR7jBxDw)Curse you.....
Ive have "Bully in the alley" running around my head for days...aggghhh!

bob10

12th April 2019, 04:51 PM

Curse you.....
Ive have "Bully in the alley" running around my head for days...aggghhh!

There is only one cure for that.

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70wkdqX8HP0&list=RDuS5xR7jBxDw&index=15)

bob10

12th April 2019, 07:25 PM

A song for us all.

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYA_0R7Vw1s&list=RDuS5xR7jBxDw&index=4)

bob10

12th April 2019, 07:33 PM

Keep hauling , boys.

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkNwhbyiA4Y)

bob10

12th April 2019, 07:43 PM

One more from the fishermans friends.

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bp7GtjgUpw4)

bob10

12th April 2019, 07:48 PM

Guess what? there's a movie!

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A04jkdQKrUw)

bob10

12th April 2019, 08:03 PM

Spin me a dit. Stuart and the John Monash.

'Scotland The Brave' HMAS STUART 1974 | GUN PLOT (http://www.gunplot.net/main/content/scotland-brave-hmas-stuart-1974)

bob10

12th April 2019, 08:14 PM

From the gun plot web site. Naval lingo, or sailors have a word for it.

Sailors Have A Word For It! (1943 Rare) | GUN PLOT (http://www.gunplot.net/main/content/sailors-have-word-it-1943-rare)

bob10

12th April 2019, 08:15 PM

Duplicate post deleted.

bob10

13th April 2019, 07:02 AM

Sails of a square rig ship, and the Beaufort wind scale.

Sails Of A Fully Rigged Ship | GUN PLOT (http://www.gunplot.net/main/content/sails-fully-rigged-ship)

bob10

13th April 2019, 07:23 AM

Most people know about Teddy Sheehan, and the Armidale, sunk by the Japanese off Timor. Not many have heard the story of the survivors struggle to live, while waiting for rescue. This is one man's story. I must warn of some disparaging remarks about the Japanese, but it is understandable . considering the circumstances. This is his story, courtesy of the Gun Plot web site.

HMAS Armidale - A Survivors Story | GUN PLOT (http://www.gunplot.net/main/content/hmas-armidale-survivors-story)

bob10

13th April 2019, 07:32 AM

For many years Lieutenent Commander Richards, Armidale's CO was said to have been shunned by the RAN after the sinking of his ship. Not so, says historian Tom Lewis.

Not Shunned By The Navy - LCDR Richards, RAN | GUN PLOT (http://www.gunplot.net/main/content/not-shunned-navy-lcdr-richards-ran)

Saulman1010

13th April 2019, 10:09 AM

There is only one cure for that.

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70wkdqX8HP0&list=RDuS5xR7jBxDw&index=15)Nope..... Bully in the alley still ringing....hey thats an idea - a ring tone! Wish i had one of those.

bob10

13th April 2019, 04:45 PM

The story of HMAS Yarra, and her last stand. Courage of the first order.

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9ppb0fsYFM)

4bee

13th April 2019, 06:39 PM

bob10

13th April 2019, 07:00 PM

Good links bob but we shouldn't forget the HMS Amethyst in the Yangtze River for courage either.

This held the world to their Wireless Sets back then. You may have been too young to remember?

Amethyst Incident - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amethyst_Incident)
I know of the Amethyst.
Not so courageous, really.

30 July 1949 Amethyst
slipped her chain and headed downriver in the dark, beginning a 104-mile (167 km) dash for freedom running the gauntlet of guns on both banks of the river. She followed the passenger ship Kiang Ling Liberation
in the hope that the observers ashore would be confused and not see Amethyst
in the dark. When the battery opened fire, the fire was directed at the Kiang Lin Liberation
which was sunk by the gun fire, with heavy civilian casualties.

4bee

13th April 2019, 07:23 PM

I know of the Amethyst.
Not so courageous, really.

Of course it was, as soon as they ran aground & all hell broke loose & sailors were dying & trying to survive.

Then after, when they got under way, the risks were possibly less but required balls of steel by the ship's company.

Would you have taken their place, I know I wouldn't have? [bighmmm]

bob10

14th April 2019, 07:00 AM

Of course it was, as soon as they ran aground & all hell broke loose & sailors were dying & trying to survive.

Then after, when they got under way, the risks were possibly less but required balls of steel by the ship's company.

Would you have taken their place, I know I wouldn't have? [bighmmm]

I posted an article on Amythest, which gives a not so glowing assessment. I'll try to find it. Not trying to take away from the deed, but the article states the action need not have taken place, and no men needed to die.

bob10

14th April 2019, 07:19 AM

In searching for my previous article, I found a comprehensive account of the incident, which deserves to be posted here. While the incident could have been avoided by the correct diplomatic procedure [ the Brits refused to recognise the communists] there is no doubting the courage and resilience of the men of the Amythest.

HMS Amethyst - the Yangtse Incident 1948 | Naval Historical Society of Australia (https://www.navyhistory.org.au/hms-amethyst-the-yangtse-incident-1948/)

bob10

14th April 2019, 08:27 AM

During the Korean War, allied warships were heavily involved in bombarding shore targets, especially in the Han river estuary. The frigate, HMAS Murchison, earned particular renown for her efforts. Amythyst also took part in the operation. Once again, from Gun Plot.

HMAS Murchison - The Baron Of Han | GUN PLOT (http://www.gunplot.net/main/content/hmas-murchison-baron-han)

4bee

14th April 2019, 09:05 AM

I posted an article on Amythest, which gives a not so glowing assessment. I'll try to find it. Not trying to take away from the deed, but the article states the action need not have taken place, and no men needed to die.

I'm not doubting that bob, & suggest most of these unfortunate events are avoidable, but taken in hindsight.

Sydney, Melbourne spring to mind & you probably know of many others that we mere mortals aren't.

[ the Brits refused to recognise the communists]

Back then in 1949 who didn't, they were the bad guys. Oz probably did as well.

So if they had recognised the 'Commies' this wouldn't have happened?

I think not, anyway, my original comments about courage wasn't aimed at Pollies/Diplomats but the actions of the unfortunate crews who down the chain followed the orders without question. Well, maybe they did question them, but in a muttered breath to the sailor in the next bunk/hammock. "WTF are we doing here Ted, we are only supposed to be the Guard Ship & this China lark was supposed to be a doddle".

Not dissing servicemen of any Arm or Branch but under those conditions I have had the greatest respect for them all, even years on.

bob10

14th April 2019, 11:32 AM

I'm not doubting that bob, & suggest most of these unfortunate events are avoidable, but taken in hindsight.

Sydney, Melbourne spring to mind & you probably know of many others that we mere mortals aren't.

Back then in 1949 who didn't, they were the bad guys. Oz probably did as well.

So if they had recognised the 'Commies' this wouldn't have happened?

I think not, anyway, my original comments about courage wasn't aimed at Pollies/Diplomats but the actions of the unfortunate crews who down the chain followed the orders without question. Well, maybe they did question them, but in a muttered breath to the sailor in the next bunk/hammock. "WTF are we doing here Ted, we are only supposed to be the Guard Ship & this China lark was supposed to be a doddle".

Not dissing servicemen of any Arm or Branch but under those conditions I have had the greatest respect for them all, even years on.

No worriers, mate, not having a go at you in any way. Your contributions are welcome, and respected. It's just in the back of my mind I know there is a background story of the Amethyst regarding her Captain, and I just can't put my finger on it. Still. best to let it go.

4bee

14th April 2019, 04:23 PM

An article apparently written by the Captain on that day ( Lt Commander Kerans) About 1/2 way down RH column. Maybe this may be the one, but for the life of me I can't see any derogatory stuff so maybe it isn't, but an interesting read all the same.

HMS Amethyst Incident, Yangtze River, China, 1949 (https://naval-history.net/WXLG-Amethyst1949.htm)

bob10

14th April 2019, 06:50 PM

bob10

14th April 2019, 07:29 PM

The scrap iron flotilla RAN, WW2

The Scrap Iron Flotilla - SBLT J F Moyes RANVR (Rare 1944) | GUN PLOT (http://www.gunplot.net/main/content/scrap-iron-flotilla-sblt-j-f-moyes-ranvr-rare-1944)

4bee

15th April 2019, 06:41 AM

Kerans took over after the original Captain died.

Yes that is well recorded bob, & why I said......
An article apparently written by the Captain on that day ( Lt Commander Kerans)

As you suggested, lets drop it, as this is really going nowhere now & by posting about it now is never going to change history, good or bad.

Thanks for the discussion bob.

bob10

15th April 2019, 07:08 AM

Yes that is well recorded bob, & why I said......

As you suggested, lets drop it, as this is really going nowhere now & by posting about it now is never going to change history, good or bad.

Thanks for the discussion bob.

Have a read of that scrap iron flotilla. Stirring stuff, an excellent account of war in the Med..

4bee

15th April 2019, 05:03 PM

The scrap iron flotilla RAN, WW2

The Scrap Iron Flotilla - SBLT J F Moyes RANVR (Rare 1944) | GUN PLOT (http://www.gunplot.net/main/content/scrap-iron-flotilla-sblt-j-f-moyes-ranvr-rare-1944)

Thanks bob, another excellent read of a theatre I knew so little about. Of course I knew of it, but not about it.
I do wish the Author would stop referring to Captain Waller as Wailer, Walter, Waliter & a few other concoctions.

I know, I know, they are typos but ffs you'd think he could get it right, after all Waller was an esteemed Officer & has a Collins Class Sub named after him to boot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Waller_(SSG_75)

Just finished with Greece to date.[smilebigeye] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Waller_(SSG_75))

bob10

15th April 2019, 05:09 PM

bob10

15th April 2019, 05:31 PM

Thanks bob, another excellent read of a theatre I knew so little about. Of course I knew of it, but not about it.
I do wish the Author would stop referring to Captain Waller as Wailer, Walter, Waliter & a few other concoctions.

I know, I know, they are typos but ffs you'd think he could get it right, after all Waller was an esteemed Officer & has a Collins Class Sub named after him to boot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Waller_(SSG_75)

Just finished with Greece to date.[smilebigeye] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Waller_(SSG_75))

Hec Waller was/is a legend. Unfortunately when in command of Perth he came up against the Japanese invasion fleet. Along with cruisers from the USN, and Dutch Navy. In the end Perth ran out of ammunition , and fired star shell, just to give the impression they were still fighting. Captain Waller went down with his ship.

HMAS PERTH - The Gallant Ship | GUN PLOT (http://www.gunplot.net/main/content/hmas-perth-gallant-ship)

Mike Carlton talks about the Sunda strait battle, and HMAS Perth.

YouTube (https://youtu.be/yEXm0J6mraM)

Part 2.

YouTube (https://youtu.be/qJyfgT63dNQ)

4bee

15th April 2019, 06:47 PM

I know , mate . But, he's a gunnery rate, what can I say?

Wot, they don't teach Navel History & speelink at West Head?[smilebigeye]

bob10

16th April 2019, 06:10 AM

Wot, they don't teach Navel History & speelink at West Head?[smilebigeye]

They teach timing. " if I wasn't a gunner I wouldn't be here" BOOM! " if I wasn't a gunner I wouldn't be here" BOOM!. And so on. [ Just kidding.]

bob10

17th April 2019, 06:57 AM

Chief Petty Officer Jonathon Rogers. An example for all sailors. Most of the sailors with him in the FWD cafeteria were 17 year old OD's.

Chief Petty Officer Jonathan Rogers | Royal Australian Navy (http://www.navy.gov.au/biography/chief-petty-officer-jonathan-rogers)

bob10

17th April 2019, 07:14 AM

HMAS Sydney and the Korean War, from one of her crew. A long yarn, but interesting.

Chapter 28: HMAS SYDNEY (http://www.koreanwaronline.com/history/oz/kr/chapter28.htm)

bob10

17th April 2019, 04:47 PM

Their Heritage, the Fleet Air Arm, Vietnam

Our Heritage: The RAN Helicopter Flight Vietnam | Fleet Air Arm Association of Australia (https://www.faaaa.asn.au/heritage-ran-helicopter-flight-vietnam/)

The RANHFV, stories.

RANHFV - Stories | Fleet Air Arm Association of Australia (https://www.faaaa.asn.au/ranhfv-stories/)

NavyDiver

17th April 2019, 08:18 PM

bob10

18th April 2019, 07:01 AM

You will remember these babies Bob. As an U.C. rate anti submarine types rock in my view

Only one fatal crash is an impressive record. As a ships Diver recovery of crashed aircraft was NOT my favorite job. I alway felt they were so ugly compared to Sea Kings.
Oddly I am now leading the JRs at the Melbourne March next week. My LJR Leeuwin days back to haunt me[biggrin]
Heritage - Wessex | Fleet Air Arm Association of Australia

(https://www.faaaa.asn.au/heritage-wessex/)

Yes, the ubiquitous Wessex. A very popular helicopter. I was present when the RAN lost one of them, with no fatalities , thank goodness. Was about 1968/9 in Jervis bay on Vampire, Wessex was delivering mail/ stores in rough weather, when the hook of the winch hooked onto something on X deck, [ that was the messdeck talk, anyway] the winch wire parted and wrapped itself around the rotor, and the aircraft lost power. I was just leaving the stokers mess to go fwd when the engine noise of the helicopter went from normal to intermittent. I looked out one of the scuttles on the port side and saw the man in the right hand seat looking up at Vampire, his eyes as big as dinner plates, no more than about 20 yards away. Curious, I thought. The aircraft's floats activated, and kept her afloat long enough to get the occupants out. This aircraft was lost because Melbourne stuffed up the recovery.

A second helicopter [ this time a Sea King]was lost was when Brisbane was operating with NATO in the North Sea, latitude 64N Operation Highwood. The Sea King flew into the sea at night, pilot lost his night vision , or something similar. The aircraft broke up, both crew members were picked up by Brisbane's boat [ we were RESDES] Both men were badly injured, but alive. This was one time I was glad I was working in an Engine room with steam at 1275 PSI and 950 degrees superheat, we kept warm off Iceland.

bob10

19th April 2019, 06:37 AM

RAN Clearance diver OP's Vietnam. From Gun Plot.

CDT Ops In Vietnam CPOCD T. Ey. Pt. 1 | GUN PLOT (http://www.gunplot.net/main/content/cdt-ops-vietnam-cpocd-t-ey-pt-1)

bob10

19th April 2019, 04:58 PM

HMAS Hobart attacked by the US Air Force. There were reports of North Vietnamese helicopters , but the truth is Australian sailors were killed and wounded by an F4 from the Air National Guard, not long in country. Worthwhile reading the story from the crewman of a USN patrol boat, after the main story.

HMAS HOBART Attacked Vietnam 1968 | GUN PLOT (http://www.gunplot.net/main/content/hmas-hobart-attacked-vietnam-1968)

bob10

19th April 2019, 07:44 PM

Bridge on the river Kwai, the TRUE story.

Bridge On The River Kwai - The True Story | GUN PLOT (http://www.gunplot.net/main/content/bridge-river-kwai-true-story)

bob10

19th April 2019, 07:53 PM

The first Australian unit to serve overseas was a Victorian colony ship, in the New Zealand Wars. I'll post this here, because it shows how close the New Zealand and Australian armed forces are. Men From Victoria served in the New Zealand militia in the NZ wars, and many settled in NZ afterwards.

For Glory & a Farm. Australian troops in NZ 1860 onwards (http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-conflicts-periods/other/glory-farm.htm)

bob10

20th April 2019, 03:39 PM

The Australian Navy in Ww1. Did you know Australia's greatest air ace, even to this day, was an RAN Officer flying in the RNAS.?

Australian Navy in WW1 - First To Fight! | GUN PLOT (http://www.gunplot.net/main/content/australian-navy-ww1-first-fight)

bob10

20th April 2019, 03:41 PM

RAN Submarine AE2.

HMA Submarine AE2 | GUN PLOT (http://www.gunplot.net/main/content/hma-submarine-ae2)

bob10

20th April 2019, 03:45 PM

The mutiny on HMAS Australia.

Mutiny! - HMAS AUSTRALIA | GUN PLOT (http://www.gunplot.net/main/content/mutiny-hmas-australia)

bob10

20th April 2019, 05:07 PM

What is not well known is that there was a mutiny by anything but name back in about '68/;69.in the RAN . The Government in their wisdom decided to change the pay structure of the Defence forces to " bring them into line with the civilian population " . Up to this point, sailors of equivalent rank were paid basically the same base wage, with allowances for extra qualifications. The new deal saw some trades gat a huge pay rise and others lose out dramatically. I was on Vampire at this time, and living in the Tiffies mess, just Fwd of the stokers mess. Coming back on board after a run ashore with a couple of messmates, we were astounded to see the Skipper, Cox'n, Chief tiff and Chief Stoker at the top of the ladder leading down to the stokers mess. The mess deck hatch was locked! With a skinful, and curious, we stayed a respectful distance to watch the theatre . The Chief Stoker went to the hatch and in a respectful tone said " C'mon fellas, we have to flash up in an hour " To which the stokers replied " get ****ed! get those overpaid electricians to flash up ! " Well the outcome of this was the crew was read the articles of war, [ I think it was that] by the skipper before we sailed.

What our mutineers had done was open an escape hatch, crawl out, lock the hatch to the mess deck, back thru the escape hatch , close It and settle in to make their stand. And the most amazing thing is they were sober. This was serious!. Turns out it was a coordinated protest. At the same time as our protest, sailors at Garden Island walked off every ship alongside and refused to go to sea. They sat down in the triangle [ a patch of grass near the gate] and only went back on board after the Admiral said he would take the protest to Government. I think the Admiral and everyone down from him secretly were on side with the sailors. The outcome of this protest was the pay scale was changed to better recognise the role paid by sailors on ships. Not by much though. Every thing settled down, and discipline returned. It just proved you can mess with stokers conditions, make them do unreasonable work [ willingly], don't mess with the pay.

bob10

21st April 2019, 05:12 PM

The RAN in the vietnam War.

R.A.N. Vietnam 1965 - 1972 | GUN PLOT (http://www.gunplot.net/main/content/ran-vietnam-1965-1972)

101RRS

21st April 2019, 08:26 PM

You are talking to yourself again Bob [wink11]

bob10

22nd April 2019, 09:17 AM

You are talking to yourself again Bob [wink11]

With over 1000 views, I'd like to think I'm informing members that there is another branch of the service besides ARMY. Besides, when it is just facts produced, what is there to converse about? Are you as one eyed as the funny face?[smilebigeye]

bob10

22nd April 2019, 09:23 AM

RAN CDT in Iraq. Currently the reports of proceedings are being digitised by the AWM. THis is a precis.

CDT3 Report of Proceedings First Gulf War | The Australian War Memorial (https://www.awm.gov.au/articles/blog/cdt3-report-proceedings-first-gulf-war)

bob10

22nd April 2019, 08:26 PM

Now it can be told. Movietone news film of the attack on Pearl Harbour, 1941, that wasn't realeased until a year later. Couldn't find the tree or ladder to present the you tube article in the correct manner.

YouTube (https://youtu.be/RDGtit1I0HA)

bob10

23rd April 2019, 04:43 PM

Remains of merchant ship sunk off SE Australia by Japanese submarine found.

Long-lost shipwreck found off Victorian coast, 77 years after being torpedoed by Japanese submarine in WWII (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/long-lost-shipwreck-found-off-victorian-coast-77-years-after-being-torpedoed-by-japanese-submarine-in-wwii/ar-BBWbXq9?ocid=spartandhp)

4bee

23rd April 2019, 07:05 PM

Ah ha, things now start to fall into place. I have wondered about these circumstances.

EDIT.
After Cape Matapan, Warspite was sent to the United States for repairs and to receive upgraded anti-aircraft guns. She arrived at the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard in Washington state and was under repair when the Japanese Navy attacked Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941 - thrusting America into the war. Warspite was completed at the end of December and joined the British Eastern Fleet in the Indian Ocean

About that time HMS Warspite was on her way back to UK/Europe the long way around etc after being repaired in the USA.

A Nip Sub warning was current & she apparently moored off Victor Harbor/Coorong/Kangaroo Island until the threat subsided, then she proceeded on.

It seems possible this Ore Carrier event was the reason she hung about Victor Harbor in 1942.

HMS Warspite (03) Dreadnought Battleship - United Kingdom (https://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail.asp'ship_id=HMS-Warspite-03)

JDNSW

24th April 2019, 07:10 AM

Talking of finding shipwrecks - low water in the Barwon River has revealed the remains of the "Wandering Jew" riverboat, which reportedly caught fire (for the third time) and burnt to the waterline in 1914.

bob10

24th April 2019, 07:14 AM

" I've had enough of big ships " A stoker, a Titanic survivor, after being torpedoed whilst serving on Lusitania. Must say I don't blame him.

Incredible story of only man to survive Titanic disaster AND the sinking of the Lusitania before telling his family 'I've had enough of large ships' is revealed nearly 75 years on (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/incredible-story-of-only-man-to-survive-titanic-disaster-and-the-sinking-of-the-lusitania-before-telling-his-family-ive-had-enough-of-large-ships-is-revealed-nearly-75-years-on/ar-BBWdzVs?ocid=spartandhp)

bob10

24th April 2019, 07:43 AM

Merchant ship losses in Australian waters in WW2. I had a friend who used to attend Anzac Day services at Sandgate, an ex Merchant seaman who survived a sinking of a torpedoed ship off the East coast. Haven't seen him for a while, must check up on him. Also have a friend who is a post war merchant sailor, a card carrying member of the communist party. Conscripted during the Vietnam War, he had an interesting time in the Army. Refused to go to Vietnam, spent more time in detention than any where else, the Army didn't know what to do with him. In the end he was quietly asked to leave, services no longer required. An interesting man.

Merchant Ship Losses in Australian Waters in WW2 | Naval Historical Society of Australia (https://www.navyhistory.org.au/merchant-ship-losses-in-australian-waters-in-ww2/)

bob10

24th April 2019, 07:58 AM

The loss of HMAS ARROW, Darwin 1974.

HMAS Arrow | Royal Australian Navy (http://www.navy.gov.au/hmas-arrow)

bob10

24th April 2019, 08:06 AM

Yes, the ubiquitous Wessex. A very popular helicopter. I was present when the RAN lost one of them, with no fatalities , thank goodness. Was about 1968/9 in Jervis bay on Vampire, Wessex was delivering mail/ stores in rough weather, when the hook of the winch hooked onto something on X deck, [ that was the messdeck talk, anyway] the winch wire parted and wrapped itself around the rotor, and the aircraft lost power. I was just leaving the stokers mess to go fwd when the engine noise of the helicopter went from normal to intermittent. I looked out one of the scuttles on the port side and saw the man in the right hand seat looking up at Vampire, his eyes as big as dinner plates, no more than about 20 yards away. Curious, I thought. The aircraft's floats activated, and kept her afloat long enough to get the occupants out. This aircraft was lost because Melbourne stuffed up the recovery.

A second helicopter [ this time a Sea King]was lost was when Brisbane was operating with NATO in the North Sea, latitude 64N Operation Highwood. The Sea King flew into the sea at night, pilot lost his night vision , or something similar. The aircraft broke up, both crew members were picked up by Brisbane's boat [ we were RESDES] Both men were badly injured, but alive. This was one time I was glad I was working in an Engine room with steam at 1275 PSI and 950 degrees superheat, we kept warm off Iceland.

EDIT. found the story on the Wessex and Vampire. Wessex N7-211

Wessex N7-211 was lost on 13 November 1969 in dramatic circumstances east of Jervis Bay. While conducted a stores transfer to the destroyer HMAS Vampire
the helicopter winch cable snagged on a projection on the destroyer’s upper deck. Moments later the ship rolled, and the cable snapped and rebounded into the helicopter’s rotor head, causing the Wessex to ditch. The aircrew were all rescued.

bob10

24th April 2019, 08:37 AM

The oldest Dutch shipwreck, found by accident. An important discovery in the history of Holland.

That makes the ship representative of three major elements of Dutch history—the transition to Golden Age shipbuilding, the expansion of the economy in the 1500s, and the introduction of copper coinage. All things they were able to confirm, Manders tells Tom Metcalfe at LiveScience (https://www.livescience.com/65276-16th-century-shipwreck-copper-cargo.html), “without having dived on the ship yet.”

Salvagers Accidentally Found the Netherlands' Oldest Shipwreck
|
Smart News
| Smithsonian (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/salvagers-accidentally-found-netherlands-oldest-shipwreck-180972024/?utm_source=smithsoniandaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20190423-daily-responsive&spMailingID=39510579&spUserID=ODU1Njc2OTEyODIyS0&spJobID=1502024244&spReportId=MTUwMjAyNDI0NAS2)

101RRS

24th April 2019, 08:49 AM

The loss of HMAS ARROW, Darwin 1974.

HMAS Arrow | Royal Australian Navy (http://www.navy.gov.au/hmas-arrow)

Two years after this incident, I was Divisional Officer to three of the Arrow survivors - all suffered major PTSD and had major issues sleeping - unfortunately while in theory recognised as a condition at the time, in reality it wasn't. Thankfully they gained a lot of understanding and support from their shipmates that was missing from the system.

A lot of bad memories returned when we went to Darwin 3 years after the incident to take over HMAS ATTACK which was the second boat badly damaged - still having the wreck of the Arrow on the mudflats didn't help matters - it should have been taken to a suitable place, left in the condition as it is in the pics and turned into a memorial.

This story did not end well as one of the three when posted to another vessel later took his own life.

While PTSD is now treated better, we still need to do far better and look after our ex servicemen and women better.

Garry

bob10

24th April 2019, 11:24 AM

Two years after this incident, I was Divisional Officer to three of the Arrow survivors - all suffered major PTSD and had major issues sleeping - unfortunately while in theory recognised as a condition at the time, in reality it wasn't. Thankfully they gained a lot of understanding and support from their shipmates that was missing from the system.

A lot of bad memories returned when we went to Darwin 3 years after the incident to take over HMAS ATTACK which was the second boat badly damaged - still having the wreck of the Arrow on the mudflats didn't help matters - it should have been taken to a suitable place, left in the condition as it is in the pics and turned into a memorial.

This story did not end well as one of the three when posted to another vessel later took his own life.

While PTSD is now treated better, we still need to do far better and look after our ex servicemen and women better.

Garry

Yes, I served with survivors of the Voyager, they were told just to get on with it. Not many marriages survived. My time in patrol boats was about the best time in the navy. We swung at the cyclone buoys once, for cyclone MAX. Just a little wind, compared to Tracy.

bob10

24th April 2019, 03:06 PM

The Coast watchers saved Guadalcanal, and Guadalcanal saved the Pacific. Admiral 'Bull ' Halsey, 1945.

The Coastwatchers | GUN PLOT (http://www.gunplot.net/main/content/coastwatchers)

Saulman1010

25th April 2019, 07:12 AM

Agggghhhh....."I'm bully in the alley".....!!!!!
Still ringing in my ears.🤪

bob10

25th April 2019, 07:28 AM

Agggghhhh....."I'm bully in the alley".....!!!!!
Still ringing in my ears.🤪

One for Anzac Day.

YouTube (https://youtu.be/uS5xR7jBxDw)

bob10

25th April 2019, 05:43 PM

bob10

25th April 2019, 06:01 PM

Well, after a wonderful day I make no apology for posting music.

YouTube (https://youtu.be/AYA_0R7Vw1s)

4bee

25th April 2019, 06:59 PM

Well, after a great Anzac Day, wkith our daughter telling us she is with child, for our second grandchild, well we need another chanty. When over in England for the Queens Jubilee, 1977, on HMAS Brisbane, we spent time at Portsmouth. Up till that point I had no idea what English were like, because all I had was poms whinging at home. What a lesson. We found a great mob of people, who accepted us and looked after us. I'd be prepared to fight for them, if it came to that.

YouTube (https://youtu.be/ZMSeWvxsFRY)

Of course they are bob, mind you some of the "whingeing Poms" had a lot to whinge about back then, new country, crap housing they were given despite promises & expectations from Australia House London. Jobs. etc.

My F i L WO2 (MBE) was REME British Army, transferred to RAEME (WO1) in Aust. & he was buggerised about with promised housing as the person would not move out of the Army digs although she was a civilian left over from when the adjoining premises were taken over, while paying out big dosh (no reimbursement) per week for crap accommodation for his 5 family members at Elder Park Hostel while others came & went from their cardboard walled, one light bulb digs.

He was awarded his MBE while stationed in Mogadishu post war, for his service in keeping the Guns & Vehicles up to scratch at Normandy & Northern France under very difficult conditions. He had also been at Dunkirk.

Oh yes there were some right whingers but if they didn't have the good olde English sense of humour they wouldn't have survived the ordeal.

bob10

26th April 2019, 08:51 AM

Well, another Anzac day done and dusted. My brain hurts. Here is a nautical song for all those who may be feeling a little dusty this morning. Where's the berocca?

YouTube (https://youtu.be/FkNwhbyiA4Y)

bob10

26th April 2019, 09:05 AM

A little song that embodies what days like Anzac Day , for sailors at least, are about.

YouTube (https://youtu.be/4x_WraxTMdg)

bob10

26th April 2019, 10:45 AM

Now the torpedoed SS Iron Crown has been found, what next.

What happens now we've found the site of the lost Australian freighter SS Iron Crown, sunk in WWII (https://theconversation.com/what-happens-now-weve-found-the-site-of-the-lost-australian-freighter-ss-iron-crown-sunk-in-wwii-115848?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20 for%20April%2026%202019%20-%201293812055&utm_content=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20f or%20April%2026%202019%20-%201293812055+CID_97393f4114322206609c961da6bd7c76&utm_source=campaign_monitor&utm_term=What%20happens%20now%20weve%20found%20the %20site%20of%20the%20lost%20Australian%20freighter %20SS%20Iron%20Crown%20sunk%20in%20WWII)

bob10

26th April 2019, 05:32 PM

bob10

26th April 2019, 06:03 PM

The world's Merchant Navy fleet to slow down to reduce emissions.

Slow down - MarineTraffic Blog (https://www.marinetraffic.com/blog/slow-down/)

4bee

26th April 2019, 07:51 PM

Should we have a merchant fleet?

Shipping out: Unions, industry, defence analysts concerned by shrinking merchant fleet (https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/news/shipping-out-unions-industry-defence-analysts-concerned-by-shrinking-merchant-fleet/ar-BBWi5Eh?ocid=spartandhp)

Dunno, but all I can remember was the Seaman's Union seemed to have them all out on strike most of the time & many times the Army & possibly the RAN were called in to load & unload ships.

bob10

26th April 2019, 08:01 PM

Dunno, but all I can remember was the Seaman's Union seemed to have them all out on strike most of the time & many times the Army & possibly the RAN were called in to load & unload ships.

Probably happened twice, but you are right. Twice too many times. But that was before Patricks and the wharf reforms.

4bee

27th April 2019, 08:37 AM

4bee

27th April 2019, 08:43 AM

Saitch

27th April 2019, 09:39 AM

Not a "Story" as such but perhaps of naval interest.
Somehow, during WWII, my grandfather, a WWI ANZAC, ended up with this, which is in my possession.
He was a crafty, old Scot with the gift of the gab. I'm assuming he sweet talked a US sailor, on shore leave in Brissie, into parting with it.[biggrin]

4bee

27th April 2019, 10:06 AM

A very nice item & the ship's name should date it...... 'circa'.

Maybe the yank Sailor is still patting & feeling over all his pockets & muttering to himself...."Now WTF did I leave my lighter?" [smilebigeye]

Here you go, & don't say I don't go out of my way to help.[biggrin]

USS Ulvert M. Moore - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Ulvert_M._Moore)

Bigbjorn

27th April 2019, 10:38 AM

Probably happened twice, but you are right. Twice too many times. But that was before Patricks and the wharf reforms.

Bob, go and talk to some wharfies. They laughed all the way to the bank. One said to me they would "lose" every industrial dispute that gave a result like that one.

Bigbjorn

27th April 2019, 10:54 AM

Possibly, & it would appear it was the Waterside Workers more than the Seaman's Union that did the most damage especially in WW2.
Some, if not all their actions were traitorous to this country & it's War Effort.

Is on the Public record.

4Bee, the wharfies made a decision to not back down and be treated again like they were in the 1920's and most of the 1930's. They had been locked out, denied work. trodden down by police horses, shot at by police and were not going to cop this treatment again even if the nation was at war. Have you ever heard of the "28'ers"? A 28er was a wharfie who scabbed in the big disputes and chose to work on the stevedores terms. One of the terms of settlement of this long running dispute was that the 28'ers be accepted back into the union without violence. They were despised and ostracised and in waterfront suburbs were known to all and sundry as a 28'er and a scab. A sick waterfront joke was that you could tell a 28'er by his missing fingertips. Supposedly nipped off by pushing through the closing wharf gates before they were locked out. During the negotiations for permanent employment in the introduction of containerised freight in the 1960's there was going to be a lot less labour required. Redundancy packages were to be financed by the Federal government. Note that the generous stevedores and ship owners did not get their cheque books out. A bone of contention was that a majority of WWF members objected to 28'ers getting rewards. The Federation convinced the membership that the 28'ers were legitimate members and had to be included.

4bee

27th April 2019, 11:25 AM

I don't know all about that **** even though my old dad was a Driver then a Tally Clerk on the Port Adelaide wharves although he enlisted in the Army for the duration & made WO2.

I only know what I read & that includes your above post, Brian.

I still believe if the country was nearly on it's knees during WW2 then it was traitorous to take the actions they did & not help the country in it's hours of need, & then argue the toss when it was all over.

I wonder how long the Japanese would have tolerated that crap if they had got a foothold here? Nope, heads would have rolled or got a bullet, or slavery would have been in vogue & the North - South railway would have been built before it was, post war, ah la the Burma Railway.

Getting the supplies & equipment to the Forces was paramount & if they didn't, then they were definitely traitors & helping the Japs.

Maybe I'm from another world & age?[bighmmm]

Saitch

27th April 2019, 01:09 PM

The 1st Royal Australian Naval Bridging Train | Royal Australian Navy (http://www.navy.gov.au/history/feature-histories/1st-royal-australian-naval-bridging-train)

My grandfather's WWI Train. He was at Gallipoli and not only where they the last to leave, by having to look after the wharf, he told us that they also had to decommission any equipment left behind i.e. firearms, artillery etc. According to my grandfather, he and his C.O. were among the last five to go because of the decommissioning factor.

My mum did have a photo of him with the slouch hat and plume but, unfortunately, it has gone missing.
The supplied photo is of him in the desert in his desert clobber. I have retouched it a little to get rid of creases and so on.

4bee

27th April 2019, 02:33 PM

Lieutenant Commander Leighton Seymour Bracegirdle,

Now, there is a name & a half.[smilebigeye] English was he?[wink11] Seems his parents were, although he was born in Balmain & he has an Adelaide connection.
He was District Naval Officer at Adelaide in 1918-21 and at Sydney in 1921-23. He had also been a president of the Commonwealth Coal Board in 1919-20. He was made Director of Naval Reserves in 1923 and next year was promoted Captain.

A side of Gallipoli that doesn't seem to get any attention, but without 'The Train', landings & replenishment would have been almost impossible. No Armed LSTs or DUKWs in those days to run up onto the beach.

Thanks for posting that & the RANBT link Saitch, a most interesting read of times past & of a little known but very essential unit.

USS LST-334 in Australian waters during WW2
(https://www.ozatwar.com/usnavy/usslst-334.htm)

Saitch

27th April 2019, 02:50 PM

4Bee, I might add that, apparently, quite a few of the men were classed as miscreants and of dubious character. [biggrin]

4bee

27th April 2019, 03:07 PM

So nothing new there then, it was the RAN.[biggrin]

Bigbjorn

27th April 2019, 03:27 PM

4bee

27th April 2019, 03:47 PM

Well, all the Google articles (of which there are quite a few) can't all be bull****e & there has to be a basis for them.

The law of averages says there must be a % of bull**** & untruths but what of the rest? Who can say?

I'll go with the non-bull****.

bob10

27th April 2019, 04:33 PM

Bob, go and talk to some wharfies. They laughed all the way to the bank. One said to me they would "lose" every industrial dispute that gave a result like that one.

Mate my uncle and his son were wharfies. I used to drink at the Brekkie Creek with the ghost, phantom , and a few others. I represented the CEPU at the picket line during the Wharf dispute. Things changed big time after that dispute , don't let them tell you otherwise. They paid off all the ones they didn't want, and the wharf was a much more efficient place because of it. But, by God, they were a lot of characters. I could tell a few stories, but not on this forum.

DiscoMick

27th April 2019, 05:34 PM

bob10

27th April 2019, 05:52 PM

The Japanese never intended to invade Australia - it was too big to garrison.
They just wanted to conquer Port Moresby and use the airfield as a base for their bombers to sink our ships and isolate us. They made it to the ridge overlooking the airfield, but because of the defeat in the Coral Sea they lost their aircraft carriers and had to retreat.

Did you know that it was the defeat of Japanese troops by the Russian army in the Manchurian war,1939 I think, that convinced the Japanese to look south, to SE Asia and the Pacific. The Japanese retreated on the Kokoda track because their supply lines were too far extended, and they were outfought by the Australians, and Guadalcanal had taken too many Japanese soldiers to fight, with reinforcements to Kokoda given a low priority. Only one Japanese carrier was sunk during the Coral Sea fight, the majority of Jap carriers were sunk at the Battle of Midway. As Admiral Bull Halsey said, " It was the Australian Coastwatchers who saved Guadalcanal, and it was Guadalcanal that saved the Pacific. " If you look at it in that light, you can see he was right.

bob10

27th April 2019, 06:30 PM

The battle of the Coral Sea. Without the USN, the war could have had a different result. There were RAN ships in the battle, but in an aircraft carrier battle, they just made up the numbers.

battle of the coral sea you tube - Bing video (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=battle+of+the+coral+sea+you+tube&view=detail&mid=22AE5540B7D181C2A65B22AE5540B7D181C2A65B&FORM=VIRE)

4bee

27th April 2019, 06:35 PM

The Japanese never intended to invade Australia - it was too big to garrison.

But Mick, who knew that back then? That thinking only came later after it was all over red rover.

All of Oz was in a level of turmoil/panic & householders were digging air raid trenches in their back yards even down here in SA & I remember helping my dad dig ours in red clay ffs.
The midget subs had been causing strife & destroyed in Sydney harbour, subs were off our East & South Coasts & our schools were taking precautions with window protection & we kids had to have an Emergency Bag containing sugared sweets & a couple of bandages, (OT Barley Sugar in my case) & we were taught how to get down on the school floor immediately if an air raid started. Air Raid Sirens were set up on various local commercial buildings as well as Telephone Exchanges. Fire Spotter shacks had been set up on the tallest structures around eg. Picture theatres etc

No-one told us it wasn't for real & for us kids there was a certain element of excitement in the air.[bighmmm] No not the Japs, more like the smell of school kid ****.[smilebigeye]

Those decisions had been made by someone & probably in Canberra for the whole country but wouldn't have happened if it wasn't a real threat.

Did they really get to the ridge overlooking Morseby? I'm not sure about that but I have read somebody's comment that is what happened as I didn't think they ever got to the Southern end of the Kokoda Track at Owers Corner & you can't see Morseby from there & there would have been a right old 'skirmish' if they had.
Well, you couldn't the last time I looked & you can't even see Bomana War Cemetery. As far I can gather they were stuffed/knackered further back along the Kokoda Track & never made it that far.

JDNSW

27th April 2019, 06:45 PM

Don't forget the bombing of Darwin and Broome. Certainly with 20/20 hindsight it is easy to see that invasion was a practical impossibility - but nobody thought that in 1942. After all they had invaded and captured "the impregnable fortress", Singapore, in a few days, sinking major capital ships with impunity; who was prepared to say what they could not do?

We had an air raid shelter, at home near Parramatta, although I was to young to remember it being dug. My father was air raid warden for our road, and I still have the sign off the front gate and his black helmet embellished with a 'W'.

I do remember the sirens being tested though.

DiscoMick

28th April 2019, 07:03 AM

I know it was feared at the time they would invade.
According to Paul Ham's Kokoda they got to the ridge, were ordered to retreat and the Jap officer in charge considered suicide in despair after all they had sacrificed, but went on and died anyway.
I remember seeing the remains of defences on the beaches and headland at Coffs Harbour port as a kid. There was a radio room, where Gough Whitlam served briefly, which is now a Cartoon Art Gallery, and concrete gunposts on the headland.
Plans were made to evacuate civilians to Dorrigo.

bob10

28th April 2019, 07:43 AM

But Mick, who knew that back then? That thinking only came later after it was all over red rover.

All of Oz was in a level of turmoil/panic & householders were digging air raid trenches in their back yards even down here in SA

Did they really get to the ridge overlooking Morseby? I'm not sure about that but I have read somebody's comment that is what happened as I didn't think they ever got to the Southern end of the Kokoda Track at Owers Corner & you can't see Morseby from there & there would have been a right old 'skirmish' if they had.
Well, you couldn't the last time I looked & you can't even see Bomana War Cemetery. As far I can gather they were stuffed/knackered further back along the Kokoda Track & never made it that far.

In the early stages of the Kokoda campaign, most Australians were complacent about the War. To quote Paul Ham, in his book Kokoda , they were " too interested in political faction fighting and industrial disputes and fights to realise their country was in danger " [ Professor Clunies-Ross, on his return from London. ] Also " They congratulate themselves on having a record crowd at the Melbourne Cup, resist petrol rationing , the control of civilian spending , anything in fact that that interferes with the ordinary life of the community. " At the Sydney rugby league Grand Final, September 1942, 26,000 people watched the game while the Japanese Army stood at Ioribaiwa and gazed on the Coral Sea.

The early tactics of the Australians , who were heavily outnumbered , under the command of Brigadier Arnold Potts, was to carry out a fighting withdrawal over the Owen Stanleys. Inflicting as many casualties as possible, and retiring to fight again. To stand and fight would have resulted in annihilation. Blamey and MacArthur , both of whom had never been in New Guinea, insisted they stand and fight. They sacked Brigadier Potts, and sent him home in disgrace. Blamey's 'Rabbit ' speech to the troops who had fought the Japanese to a standstill, was perhaps the most disgraceful moment in the Australian Army's history. The fact that the first US Army unit to fight in New Guinea, at Buna, [ a poorly trained National Guard unit] dropped their rifles and ran at first contact with the Japanese, didn't help the mood, either.

That Pott's tactics were the correct ones was bought home by the fact the Japanese were starving, when they reached Ioribaiwa, their supply lines were too long, they had no aircraft for resupply [ Guadalcanal need all the Japanese aircraft available] they had no reinforcements available, and were ordered by their Emperor to retreat. The state of the Japanese soldiers rations is recorded by LT. Sakamoto, at Ioribaiwa. " Not a single grain of rice left. Taroes sufficient for only another day. From tomorrow we will have to chew grass or bark. "

Order issued by Eighteenth Army to Japanese troops, 10 December 1944, to clarify official position on cannibalism. " Those who have consumed human flesh --- EXCLUDING THAT OF THE ENEMY-----will be sentenced to death for committing the worst possible crime against humanity " Excluding that of the enemy. Australian troops came across Australian bodies that had been cut up to eat. It was from this point no Jap prisoners were taken. And the stage was set for the next part of the campaign, in Papua. It was to be one of the bloodiest and terrible campaigns of the War.

4bee

28th April 2019, 09:04 AM

Maybe it was a Paul Ham comment I read?

Must get that book.

Never having heard of "The Rabbit Speech" I went looking, & came across this interesting article.

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php't=108903

Aussies were trying to live with this war thing & yet our Generals were having a personality spat.[bigsad]

Right, now back to looking for the rabbit speech.[bighmmm]
(https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php't=108903)

bob10

28th April 2019, 10:50 AM

Yes, Paul Ham's Kokoda is the best I have read on the subject. Another book I recommend is " the path of infinite sorrow" the Japanese on the Kokoda track. By Craig Collie and Hajime Marutani. Now, run rabbit run.

Run Rabbit (http://www.swcs.com.au/runrabbit.htm)

bob10

28th April 2019, 11:39 AM

Committal of ashes at sea | Navy Daily (http://news.navy.gov.au/en/Mar2019/Events/5122/Committal-of-ashes-at-sea.htm#.XMUSE_ZuLIU)

bob10

28th April 2019, 11:52 AM

The last Australians to leave the Gallipoli Peninsula... were Sailors.

The 1st Royal Australian Naval Bridging Train | Royal Australian Navy (http://www.navy.gov.au/history/feature-histories/1st-royal-australian-naval-bridging-train)

bob10

28th April 2019, 12:58 PM

The Grey Funnel Line. a video made of Perth, Derwent and Supply on a Indian Ocean, Persian Gulf Diplomatic cruise. My memories are some what different to the video, they didn't go where us engineering types went. Probably boring to some, but it was a good trip.

Grey Funnel Line | Royal Australian Navy (http://www.navy.gov.au/grey-funnel-line)

bob10

28th April 2019, 01:04 PM

Sea Power. A video of the RAN at work.

Sea Power | Royal Australian Navy (http://www.navy.gov.au/sea-power)

bob10

29th April 2019, 08:12 AM

The sinking of the Royal Oak, Scapa Flow, WW2

YouTube (https://youtu.be/Mk9CTEYqPjk)

bob10

29th April 2019, 05:02 PM

Capsized crew rescued in the Torres Strait. Been thru there a few times, wicked current.

Capsized crew rescued in Torres Strait | The New Daily (https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/people/2019/04/29/capsized-crew-torres-strait/?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=PM%20Update%2020190429)

Bigbjorn

29th April 2019, 08:14 PM

Subject: Latest News from UK Ministry of Defense

The Royal Navy is proud to announce its new fleet of Type 45 destroyers. Having previously named the first two ships HMS Daring & HMS Dauntless, the MoD's Naming Committee has, after intense pressure from the European Union in Brussels, renamed them HMS Cautious & HMS Prudence. The next five ships will be HMS Empathy, HMS Circumspect, HMS Nervous, HMS Timorous & HMS Apologist. Costing £850 million each, they comply with the very latest employment, equality, health & safety and human rights legislation. The Royal Navy fully expects any future enemy to be jolly decent and to comply with similar high standards of behaviour. The revised user-friendly crow’s nest has excellent wheelchair access. Live ammunition has been replaced with paintballs, both to reduce the risk of anyone getting hurt and to reduce the number of compensation claims. Stress counsellors and lawyers will be on board, as will a full sympathetic industrial tribunal. The crew will be 50/50 men and women, and will contain the correct balance of race, gender, sexuality and disability. Sailors will only work a maximum of 37 hours per week as per Brussels Rules on Working Hours - even in wartime. All the vessels will be equipped with a maternity ward, a creche and a gay disco. While tobacco will be banned throughout the ship, recreational cannabis will be allowed in wardrooms & messes. The Royal Navy is eager to shed its traditional reputation for "Rum, sodomy and the lash". So out has gone the rum ration, replaced by sparkling water. Sodomy remains, now extended to include all ratings under 18. The lash will still be available - by request. Saluting of officers is deemed elitist and has been replaced by, "Hello Sailor".
Information on all notice boards will be in 37 different languages and Braille. Crew members will now no longer have to ask permission to grow beards and/or moustaches. This applies equally to female crew. The MoD is inviting suggestions for a "non-specific" flag ...because the White Ensign may offend minorities. The Union Jack must not be seen, or flown. The renamed HMS Cautious will soon be commissioned by Captain Hook from the Finsbury Park Mosque, who will break a petrol bomb over the hull. She will gently slide into the sea accompanied by the Royal Marines Band playing The Village People’s "In the Navy". Her first deployment will be to escort boatloads of illegal immigrants to ports on England’s south coast. (Whitstable has been mentioned in dispatches!) The Prime Minister said, "Our ships reflect the very latest in modern thinking and will always be able to comply with any new legislation from Brussels." Her final words were, "Britannia waives the rules".

bob10

30th April 2019, 04:27 AM

bob10

30th April 2019, 07:38 AM

Three ex members of the RAN helicopter flight Vietnam share their story on a pod cast.

Life on the Line Podcast - #53 Vic Battese, David Cronin and Bob Ray | Free Listening on Podbean App (https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-dw3du-a512b1)

Bigbjorn

30th April 2019, 09:42 AM

101RRS

30th April 2019, 10:25 AM

[QUOTE=bob10;2905492]I believe the Type 45 need to go to sea with a tug, to ensure they get home.

The RAN now has a couple of ships like that. The two Spanish built vessels known in the Department of Finance as the White Elephant class. They have taken the place of Stalwart to be permanently moored on Bottle Bank at Garden Island.

Not sure I would agree with that - after the initial engine issues were rectified as part of their acceptance into service process, the Canberra Class (Canberra and Adelaide) have become some of the hardest working ships in the RAN, particularly as they tick off capability testing milestones.

Garry

JDNSW

30th April 2019, 10:26 AM

Actually, I seem to remember only a few days ago a news item claiming they are now serviceable after two years under repair, and have just made a first voyage successfully. The manufacturers have come to a confidential out of court settlement with the government.

carjunkieanon

30th April 2019, 10:31 AM

They teach timing. " if I wasn't a gunner I wouldn't be here" BOOM! " if I wasn't a gunner I wouldn't be here" BOOM!. And so on. [ Just kidding.]

Pretty sure Nicolas Monssarrat tells that story in one of his books. I think 'The Three Corvettes.'

101RRS

30th April 2019, 12:24 PM

Actually, I seem to remember only a few days ago a news item claiming they are now serviceable after two years under repair, and have just made a first voyage successfully.

They have been driving around for quite a while - first success voyage was back a while and the ships have travelled far and wide including RIMPAC exercises in Hawaii last year and in India/SriLanka this year.

NavyDiver

30th April 2019, 01:45 PM

[QUOTE=bob10;2905492]I believe the Type 45 need to go to sea with a tug, to ensure they get home.

The RAN now has a couple of ships like that. The two Spanish built vessels known in the Department of Finance as the White Elephant class. They have taken the place of Stalwart to be permanently moored on Bottle Bank at Garden Island.

I was on Adelaide a few weeks ago. I did think BIG Target but re the other issues you mentioned I saw and heard nothing. Amazing capability and 1000% better than the rubbish the yanks sold us in the mid naughtess

bob10

30th April 2019, 03:59 PM

[QUOTE=Bigbjorn;2905556]

Not sure I would agree with that - after the initial engine issues were rectified as part of their acceptance into service process, the Canberra Class (Canberra and Adelaide) have become some of the hardest working ships in the RAN, particularly as they tick off capability testing milestones.

Garry

I agree. I certainly didn't post that. Fake news?

bob10

30th April 2019, 04:01 PM

Pretty sure Nicolas Monssarrat tells that story in one of his books. I think 'The Three Corvettes.'

I think you may be correct. It is the timing used nowadays for the saluting guns.

bob10

30th April 2019, 04:07 PM

Every problem can be overcome, with effort.

What's wrong with the Type 45 Destroyer engines and how can it be fixed? - Quora (https://www.quora.com/Whats-wrong-with-the-Type-45-Destroyer-engines-and-how-can-it-be-fixed)

bob10

30th April 2019, 04:11 PM

It is true that the type 45's have deployed, but only if they don't have to use their defensive systems. They draw too much power, you see, and the system shuts down. HOWEVER, they may have a solution.

Final cure for Type 45 destroyer propulsion problems announced | Save the Royal Navy (https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/final-cure-for-type-45-destroyer-propulsion-problems-announced/)

bob10

30th April 2019, 04:18 PM

Where will the RN dock their new carriers?

Dry docking the Royal Navy’s aircraft carriers – what are the options? | Save the Royal Navy (https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/dry-docking-the-royal-navys-aircraft-carriers-what-are-the-options/)

bob10

30th April 2019, 04:55 PM

Now this doesn't look like sitting alongside to me.

HMAS Adelaide embarks mechanised combat team for first time - CONTACT magazine (http://www.contactairlandandsea.com/2019/04/26/hmas-adelaide-embarks-mechanised-combat-team-for-first-time/)

bob10

30th April 2019, 04:58 PM

Nor this.

HMAS Adelaide is six nation ship | Navy Daily (http://news.navy.gov.au/en/Jun2018/RIMPAC/4681/HMAS-Adelaide-is-six-nation-ship.htm#.XMf__vZuLIU)

bob10

30th April 2019, 05:00 PM

Or this even.

Two’s company for LHDs | Navy Daily (http://news.navy.gov.au/en/May2018/Fleet/4620/Two’s-company-for-LHDs.htm#.XMgAZfZuLIU)

bob10

30th April 2019, 05:23 PM

And while we are talking destroyers, the RAN Hobart clas demonstrated at Rimpac how it can link up to other ships fitted with link 16, and pass on targeting information to them to allow the other ship to destroy the target, miles away. Without losing power. The only other ship in the World to do that, besides the Arleigh Bourke class.

YouTube (https://youtu.be/kwUvIDyQACE)

Bigbjorn

30th April 2019, 05:30 PM

google HMAS Adelaide propulsion problems. Here is one report of many.

Navy's billion-dollar vessels mostly 'ship-shape' after years of engine troubles - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-22/navy-vessels-ship-shape-after-years-of-engine-problems/11034882)

"Almost three years to fix". "It appears she can now get from point A to point B."

These things cost $1.5 billion each and were years late in construction and delivery and have spent years since out of action with a dud propulsion system. Not good enough. Heads should have rolled and plenty of them. Both naval and public service. It appears our Defence purchasing people are the wood ducks of the used car trade. Poms sold us rubbish for a century when we were in our British to the bootstraps mode and the yanks have done the same with those used ships that were piles of pus.

bob10

30th April 2019, 07:32 PM

Bigbjorn

30th April 2019, 08:35 PM

Yep, old news.

Yes, Bob. Eight days old. Dated 22/4/19

4bee

30th April 2019, 08:45 PM

[QUOTE=Bigbjorn;2905556]

I was on Adelaide a few weeks ago. I did think BIG Target but re the other issues you mentioned I saw and heard nothing. Amazing capability and 1000% better than the rubbish the yanks sold us in the mid naughtess

Sold us?? You must mean that we bought, shirley? The yanks supplied them.
From what I could gather at the time they were "thoroughly Surveyed" by "Experts" from Australia & the transaction wouldn't have been done by E-mail & SMS & for reasons best known to them felt it was the best way to waste Australian Taxpayer's hard earned. I guess they walked away with big fat salaries.

Obvious major corrosion being one of the main defects which I understand Oz picked up the bill for at the time etc etc etc. Not a huge problem in a ship of War I guess[bighmmm] & I suppose they were cheap & as the lady in Harrods explained to us at the time "The word is in-expensive, for cheap denotes rubbish" or words to that effect.

How accurate she was.
[biggrin]
Don't these sales come with a guarantee of some sort of seaworthiness or are those in Canberra who control contracts simply dumb & uncaring??

Were the US sales people named Bonnie & Clyde?

Just sayin'.

NavyDiver

30th April 2019, 08:52 PM

[QUOTE=NavyDiver;2905616]

Sold us?? You must mean that we bought, shirley? The yanks supplied them.
From what I could gather at the time they were "thoroughly Surveyed" by "Experts" from Australia & the transaction wouldn't have been done by E-mail & SMS & for reasons best known to them felt it was the best way to waste Australian Taxpayer's hard earned. I guess they walked away with big fat salaries.

Obvious major corrosion being one of the main defects which I understand Oz picked up the bill for at the time etc etc etc. Not a huge problem in a ship of War I guess[bighmmm] & I suppose they were cheap & as the lady in Harrods explained to us at the time "The word is in-expensive, for cheap denotes rubbish" or words to that effect.

How accurate she was.
[biggrin]
Don't these sales come with a guarantee of some sort of seaworthiness or are those in Canberra who control contracts simply dumb & uncaring??

Were the US sales people named Bonnie & Clyde?

Just sayin'.

Not suggesting your wrong at all. "or are those in Canberra who control contracts simply dumb & uncaring??" Really really dumb at times!

The "Yank Sales Job" might have included a lot of fine wine as well for some involved from our side. Rust buckets +++ is a known fact. The new spanish designed ships are very far removed from those things. Enjoying a beer in a stubby cooler from HMAS Adelaide as I type- Cheers [thumbsupbig]

bob10

1st May 2019, 07:29 AM

Yes, Bob. Eight days old. Dated 22/4/19

Let it go, mate. You're flogging a dead horse. The fact is the two LHD's are now operational, and the RAN is getting more value out of them, than the RN is out of the type 45, at the moment. Considering the first upgrade for the Type 45's is not until 2021, and the first ship of the class , Daring? I think, is an along side training ship, [ disgraceful for a brand new warship] , all the RN's front line destroyers are good for is showing the flag. It won't always be like that, and it is not the Navy's fault, but the fact is some very ordinary decisions were made in the construction of the type 45's. If they had fitted the USN gas turbines instead of the unsuitable Brit. ones, could be a different story. Same with the new carriers. Without a suitable Fleet Air Arm, all they are is targets. There is also a good reason the new frigates the RAN is buying off Britain will be fitted with USN combat systems.

The RAN had to put up with derogatory media reports about the Collins class for years, but they are recognised as the best conventional submarines around, now. It'll be the same with the type 45, I'm sure.

bob10

1st May 2019, 07:52 AM

[QUOTE=4bee;2905749]

Not suggesting your wrong at all. "or are those in Canberra who control contracts simply dumb & uncaring??" Really really dumb at times!

The "Yank Sales Job" might have included a lot of fine wine as well for some involved from our side. Rust buckets +++ is a known fact. The new spanish designed ships are very far removed from those things. Enjoying a beer in a stubby cooler from HMAS Adelaide as I type- Cheers [thumbsupbig]

What is not well known is the fact the Tobruk had broken her back, and some ships were needed in a hurry to take some work off Tobruk to extend her life until a suitable replacement could be found. The rust buckets fitted the bill, at the right price, and the word from the engine room was whilst inconvenient, the rust didn't create a structural problem. The two ships filled a gap, and did the job they were bought for. It must be galling for Britain to find Spain can design and build better ships than England.

JDNSW

1st May 2019, 08:33 AM

[QUOTE=NavyDiver;2905752]
..... It must be galling for Britain to find Spain can design and build better ships than England.

Nothing new - throughout UK naval history some of the RN's best ships were ones captured from various opponents - including Spain - and copies made of them!

bob10

1st May 2019, 08:34 AM

bob10

1st May 2019, 08:36 AM

[QUOTE=bob10;2905817]

Nothing new - throughout UK naval history some of the RN's best ships were ones captured from various opponents - including Spain - and copies made of them!

Having said that, I must qualify the statement by giving credit to the latest RN nuclear submarines. Absolute state of the art, World leading, and World beating. Amazing what you can do with unlimited funds.

bob10

1st May 2019, 08:54 AM

The Astute Class. We should save our pennies and buy a couple.

latest RN nuclear submarines you tube - Bing video (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=latest+RN+nuclear+submarines+you+tube&&view=detail&mid=CBC0BE9E1B3BCAB8E703CBC0BE9E1B3BCAB8E703&rvsmid=29D2A5992D8A9B1F358C29D2A5992D8A9B1F358C&FORM=VDQVAP)

bob10

1st May 2019, 09:04 AM

HMS Ambush. I want one.

YouTube (https://youtu.be/DQbbCk9HQaU)

bob10

1st May 2019, 09:14 AM

The Navy during the great War.

Life on the Line Podcast - The Great War's Navy with Dr David Stevens | Free Listening on Podbean App (https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-tts6w-a512a5)

bob10

1st May 2019, 10:39 AM

The USA wasn't the only " friend " that sold us a pup. Britain did it with Choules.

An old article;

Broken down HMAS Tobruk, HMAS Choules limit navy's emergency response (https://www.news.com.au/national/broken-down-hmas-tobruk-hmas-choules-limit-navys-emergency-response/news-story/6314acc87c0b678b030dc888fa16d1fa)

101RRS

1st May 2019, 11:48 AM

The US did not sell us pups with Manoora and Kanimbla - we bought the pups with eyes wide open - the yanks never hid their condition - we well knew their condition but like buying an old rusted out car we thought we could fix them up on the cheap - and of course like an old banger the opposite was the case.

With those ships we had no one else to blame but ourselves.

bob10

1st May 2019, 12:28 PM

The Battle of Midway, from the Japanese perspective. Possibly the most important Naval Battle of WW2, not counting the Atlantic. This battle determined the outcome of the Pacific War.

YouTube (https://youtu.be/Bd8_vO5zrjo)

bob10

1st May 2019, 12:45 PM

The Battle of Savo Island, the USN's worst defeat. He makes a mistake, and says USS Canberra. Apart from that , a good description. Almost as many men died in the Naval battle as did ashore in Guadalcanal. Beginning to see just how vicious the Pacific War was. And how it was a close run thing.

YouTube (https://youtu.be/XWEEHOKcTnA)

bob10

1st May 2019, 12:59 PM

The Battle of Savo Island, from the Australian survivors perspective.

YouTube (https://youtu.be/LVivSO7KW8E)

NavyDiver

1st May 2019, 02:24 PM

[QUOTE=JDNSW;2905828]

Having said that, I must qualify the statement by giving credit to the latest RN nuclear submarines. Absolute state of the art, World leading, and World beating. Amazing what you can do with unlimited funds.

Did you see a film 'Johnny English Strikes Again' ? It was hilarious his partner informs him that his own wife is a British Navy captain who commands a nuclear submarine. It was fully analog "Resolution class " If you haven't seen it watch it [biggrin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHd2cRMQmls

Current Pommy boats are the Trafalgar all pre 1999 and Astute classes from 2010 on. The later are over 1.5 billion pounds each [bighmmm] Glad we are not paying for them Bob!

bob10

1st May 2019, 04:36 PM

[QUOTE=bob10;2905831]

Did you see a film 'Johnny English Strikes Again' ? It was hilarious his partner informs him that his own wife is a British Navy captain who commands a nuclear submarine. It was fully analog "Resolution class " If you haven't seen it watch it [biggrin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHd2cRMQmls

Current Pommy boats are the Trafalgar all pre 1999 and Astute classes from 2010 on. The later are over 1.5 billion pounds each [bighmmm] Glad we are not paying for them Bob!

We should charge them for coming to their aid in WW1, and WW2. I watched a show today, by some English twit talking about WW1. He rabbited on about the 'British ' innovation of combined arms, saying it won them the War. No mention of the fact it was Monash who invented it, and Monash and a Canadian General [ insulting of me to forget his name, I know, but I don't want to get it wrong.] who organised the push in 1917/18, with Canadian and Australian troops spearheading the offensive. No offence to the rest of the ' British ' and Commonwealth troops who fought and died for Britain.

4bee

1st May 2019, 06:59 PM

The transformer problem was not detected during a major survey prior to the government buying the relatively new ship from Britain's Royal Navy.

It says a lot about the so called "Technical Experts" who surveyed her & she must have done sea trials & technical inspections so how come Oz not only bought a lemon but paid for their "junket" possibly at the Ritz? [smilebigeye]

bob10

1st May 2019, 07:26 PM

It says a lot about the so called "Technical Experts" who surveyed her & she must have done sea trials & technical inspections so how come Oz not only bought a lemon but paid for their "junket" possibly at the Ritz? [smilebigeye]

Any thing is possible, but the survey was carried out by RN engineers.

NavyDiver

1st May 2019, 07:26 PM

Here is some nice new frigates. BAE Systems got the gig over Austal [bighmmm]

Hunter Class Frigate Program | BAE Systems | Australia (https://www.baesystems.com/en-aus/feature/hunter)

4bee

1st May 2019, 08:16 PM

but the survey was carried out by RN engineers.

bob it doesn't matter who did the survey but nice to know though it was RN person-ell (shiny bums or grubby handed hard grafters notwithstanding) but I still cannot understand how this vessel passed the survey to be commissioned into the fleet. Were RAN Engineers looking over their shoulders?

I have a dreaded feeling in my water that this venture into using Pods will be fraught with never ending problems & doesn't just apply to RAN vessels, as many Cruise ships relying on this propulsion method have also come to grief around the world, & some have also been delayed in Adelaide, one being the Queen Mary 2 I think it was (?) prior to a cruise to WA a couple of years back on it's way back to the UK. It sat for a whole day at Outer Harbour being repaired.

Electrically powered they may be but there seems to be a lot of ongoing trouble which is something Oz cannot afford to exist in our Taxpayer funded service & we deserve better.

Emergency Event boats? Send the Mooring Launches. They don't have pods except in the Ration Box for the Nespresso coffee machines.[smilebigeye]

bob10

2nd May 2019, 07:27 AM

I came across this article, from South Korea. What I found interesting is they are building diesel electric submarines fitted with ballistic missiles.

South Korea Green-Lights Key Naval Projects – Defense Security Monitor (https://dsm.forecastinternational.com/wordpress/2019/05/01/south-korea-green-lights-key-naval-projects/)

bob10

2nd May 2019, 07:39 AM

The submarine, interesting.

KSS-III Class (https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/rok/kss-3.htm)

Specifications. 10 SLBM's. on the batch 2.

KSS-III Class (https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/rok/kss-3-specs.htm)

bob10

2nd May 2019, 07:55 AM

bob it doesn't matter who did the survey but nice to know though it was RN person-ell (shiny bums or grubby handed hard grafters notwithstanding) but I still cannot understand how this vessel passed the survey to be commissioned into the fleet. Were RAN Engineers looking over their shoulders?

I have a dreaded feeling in my water that this venture into using Pods will be fraught with never ending problems & doesn't just apply to RAN vessels, as many Cruise ships relying on this propulsion method have also come to grief around the world, & some have also been delayed in Adelaide, one being the Queen Mary 2 I think it was (?) prior to a cruise to WA a couple of years back on it's way back to the UK. It sat for a whole day at Outer Harbour being repaired.

Electrically powered they may be but there seems to be a lot of ongoing trouble which is something Oz cannot afford to exist in our Taxpayer funded service & we deserve better.

Emergency Event boats? Send the Mooring Launches. They don't have pods except in the Ration Box for the Nespresso coffee machines.[smilebigeye]

I have to point out the RAN LHD's are fully operational, and have been for some time. The problem with the pods has been sorted, and pods around the World have no more problems than conventionally powered ships. All new ships and submarines have teething problems, as indicated by the RN's first Astute submarine still sitting alongside, not fully operational, while follow on boats have learned from that and are travelling well. My only reservation about the LHD's is, they would have to have the best defensive armament available, because they a big slab sided block of flats, you couldn't miss them.

Bigbjorn

2nd May 2019, 08:36 AM

[QUOTE=NavyDiver;2905947]

We should charge them for coming to their aid in WW1, and WW2. I watched a show today, by some English twit talking about WW1. He rabbited on about the 'British ' innovation of combined arms, saying it won them the War. No mention of the fact it was Monash who invented it, and Monash and a Canadian General [ insulting of me to forget his name, I know, but I don't want to get it wrong.] who organised the push in 1917/18, with Canadian and Australian troops spearheading the offensive. No offence to the rest of the ' British ' and Commonwealth troops who fought and died for Britain.

It was the Australians who advanced up through the retreating Brits at Villers-Bretonneaux and stopped the German assault.

Colonel Blimps and associated flag wavers and bugle blowers should take note that the only war Australians fought in in defence of Australia was in the South Pacific theatre in 1942-43. All other wars in which Australians fought and died were someone else's war.

Bigbjorn

2nd May 2019, 08:53 AM

I have to point out the RAN LHD's are fully operational, and have been for some time. The problem with the pods has been sorted, and pods around the World have no more problems than conventionally powered ships. All new ships and submarines have teething problems, as indicated by the RN's first Astute submarine still sitting alongside, not fully operational, while follow on boats have learned from that and are travelling well. My only reservation about the LHD's is, they would have to have the best defensive armament available, because they a big slab sided block of flats, you couldn't miss them.

Bob, those propulsion systems are complex and by the Law of Colonel Murphy USAAC will have problems simply due to complexity and operating in a hostile environment (salt water). What is wrong with a large powerful modern engine? Have a look at the eight E class container vessels built for Maersk Line. Over 120,000 tons, 13,500 to 15,000 TEU containers, cruise 20+ knots, single diesel engine and shaft, 109,000 horsepower. Then note how the yard in Copenhagen builds them in months. We take years to build small warships.

bob10

2nd May 2019, 09:16 AM

[QUOTE=bob10;2905982]

It was the Australians who advanced up through the retreating Brits at Villers-Bretonneaux and stopped the German assault.

Colonel Blimps and associated flag wavers and bugle blowers should take note that the only war Australians fought in in defence of Australia was in the South Pacific theatre in 1942-43. All other wars in which Australians fought and died were someone else's war.

Actually the fight for Villers - Bretonneaux was undertaken by 2 Australian Brigades, and 3 English Battalions. The Australians had the most difficult job. In the end, one AIF battalion fixed bayonets and charged with a ferocity that broke the German resistance. [ I think it was the 15th] AIF casualties were high. As for fighting other peoples Wars, Those who did were all volunteers, up to the Vietnam War. The first contingent of colonial Victorians to go overseas to fight were sailors from the Victorian ship, Victoria, to fight in the Maori Wars. Sailors from the Victoria went ashore as ground troops to help in the attack on a Maori PA. [ the Maori melted away, and fought again another day] These were followed by colonial volunteers from Victoria, NSW and Brisbane, who went and fought for the Waikato volunteers. Next came the Chinese Boxer rebellion, the Zulu wars [ by individual volunteers] the Boer War, of Breaker Morant fame, [ if you could call it that.] WW1, then fighting the Russian revolutionaries with the Brits, then WW2, Korea, Malaya, Indonesian Confrontation, Vietnam[ the conscripts time], Timor, Iraq, Afghanistan . This doesn't take into account the Aussies who fought in Rhodesia, or in South Africa's War with Cuba in Angola, or the many who fought with the French Foreign Legion in all parts of French Africa. I may have missed one or two conflicts, including the Frontier Wars. Hard to realise we are really a peace loving Nation. :angel:

Vllers-Bretonneaux. EDIT. My Great Grandfather, and his son, my Grandfather, served in the 49th Qld Battalion , at the battle. How they both came home at the end of the War was a miracle.

Looking back on the battle of Villers-Bretonneux - WWI Centenary - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-06/battle-of-villers-bretonneux/5497598)

bob10

2nd May 2019, 09:19 AM

Bob, those propulsion systems are complex and by the Law of Colonel Murphy USAAC will have problems simply due to complexity and operating in a hostile environment (salt water). What is wrong with a large powerful modern engine? Have a look at the eight E class container vessels built for Maersk Line. Over 120,000 tons, 13,500 to 15,000 TEU containers, cruise 20+ knots, single diesel engine and shaft, 109,000 horsepower. Then note how the yard in Copenhagen builds them in months. We take years to build small warships.

Well, any one can build a hull. It's when you get to the really complex defensive and offensive systems that go into that hull that takes time to get it right.

NavyDiver

2nd May 2019, 09:58 AM

4bee

2nd May 2019, 10:18 AM

Almost every warship engine is the same now. The same engines used in a 747 [biggrin]

Not kidding. Even the RMS Queen Mary 2 has gas turbines ( and older engine they would not be able to start building today!)

Interesting that, ND. Do the Turbines actually directly drive a prop through a gearbox or do they generate power to drive pods?

Edited. Don't know about QM 2 but seems a common method anyway.

https://www.brighthubengineering.com/naval-architecture/61952-jet-engines-for-marine-propulsion/ (https://www.brighthubengineering.com/naval-architecture/61952-jet-engines-for-marine-propulsion/)

NavyDiver

2nd May 2019, 10:25 AM

Interesting that, ND. Do the Turbines actually directly drive a prop through a gearbox or do they generate power to drive pods?
This might explain it better than I can. It is both Direct and indirect via electricity. The first Aussie ships with gas turbines were the FFGs. Like our discos turbo whine just a lot louder. [biggrin].
Gas Turbines as Ships Main Engines (https://www.brighthubengineering.com/naval-architecture/61952-jet-engines-for-marine-propulsion/)

The link below shows you some of the actual engines. Much more effecent than my first Fuel Oil ship HMAS Vampire [biggrin]
Military Gas Turbine | GE Aviation (https://www.geaviation.com/marine/engines/military)

4bee

2nd May 2019, 10:35 AM

SNAP, to my above Ed. [smilebigeye]

bob10

2nd May 2019, 04:04 PM

This might explain it better than I can. It is both Direct and indirect via electricity. The first Aussie ships with gas turbines were the FFGs. Like our discos turbo whine just a lot louder. [biggrin].
Gas Turbines as Ships Main Engines (https://www.brighthubengineering.com/naval-architecture/61952-jet-engines-for-marine-propulsion/)

The link below shows you some of the actual engines. Much more effecent than my first Fuel Oil ship HMAS Vampire [biggrin]
Military Gas Turbine | GE Aviation (https://www.geaviation.com/marine/engines/military)

Oh for the days of Steam, where the Tiffies & Stokers actually steamed the ship. No such thing as air conditioned machinery control rooms. Just sweat and hard work, and a decent amount of skill. And I think we lived on side of road in carboard box. [bigsmile1]

bob10

2nd May 2019, 04:15 PM

Raising steam. An instructional movie. Of course not at short notice like gas turbines, or diesel, but if at short notice we steamed auxiliary, one boiler flashed up, generators running.

YouTube (https://youtu.be/uwMRCU0olS0)

bob10

2nd May 2019, 04:52 PM

The steamship " Shieldhall"
The Steamship Shieldhall is the largest working steamship in Britain. A member of the National Historic Fleet she serves as a sea going tribute to Britain's maritime heritage. This documentary gives you a behind the scenes look at preparing the ship for sailing.
One of my regrets as steam Tiffie in the RAN is I didn't get the chance to serve on HMAS Diamontina, [ not sure of the spelling.] the only steam ship with triple expansion steam engines in the RAN at that time. The engineering roughly went triple expansion steam engines, steam turbines, diesel, CODAG [ combined diesel and gas turbines.] If you have read the book 'sand pebbles' you would have read Holman's explanation of the operation of triple expansion engines to the Chinese stoker. Classic.

YouTube (https://youtu.be/wBEOSAI2je8)

Bigbjorn

2nd May 2019, 05:05 PM

Well, any one can build a hull. It's when you get to the really complex defensive and offensive systems that go into that hull that takes time to get it right.

Perhaps the large difference in build times between warships and merchant vessels can be explained this way. Merchant vessels are ordered by companies who want them delivered tomorrow and out on the ocean hauling freight and making money. Warships are usually built to the beat of the government stroke except in wartime when need might become more urgent. Warship construction can be delayed or cancelled for political or budgetary reasons. "Treasurer, we need more money for schools, hospitals, and our salaries". "Well then, stop building those white elephants for the Navy and use that money."

4bee

2nd May 2019, 05:35 PM

Oh for the days of Steam, where the Tiffies & Stokers actually steamed the ship. No such thing as air conditioned machinery control rooms.

Now now bob, those reminiscent thoughts are all warm & fuzzy (ask me, I have them all the time, me living in the past)[biggrin]

But would you really really really wish to to go back there today?

Thought not.[bigsad]

In real life I used to work with an Ex -RAN Stoker who told stories of stoking on various HM vessels & ports he'd been to. HM Ships Melbourne & Sydney spring to mind but cannot recall the others. It was probably 50 years ago when we last spoke. I wonder whether all Stokers were as sexually depraved as this guy?:Rolling: Maybe it formed part of his Course?[bigsmile1]

bob10

2nd May 2019, 05:39 PM

bob10

2nd May 2019, 05:40 PM

bob10

2nd May 2019, 06:02 PM

Now now bob, those reminiscent thoughts are all warm & fuzzy (ask me, I have them all the time, me living in the past)[biggrin]

But would you really really really wish to to go back there today?

Thought not.[bigsad]

In real life I used to work with an Ex -RAN Stoker who told stories of stoking on various HM vessels & ports he'd been to. HM Ships Melbourne & Sydney spring to mind but cannot recall the others. It was probably 50 years ago when we last spoke. I wonder whether all Stokers were as sexually depraved as this guy?:Rolling: Maybe it formed part of his Course?[bigsmile1]

Thought I was conversing to a sensible man . Guess I was wrong. Whatever floats your boat, mate.

bob10

2nd May 2019, 06:48 PM

Thales replaces the first bow sonar for the Collins class Subs.

Thales UK sends first Collins-class replacement bow to Australia | Naval Today (https://navaltoday.com/2019/03/12/thales-uk-sends-first-collins-class-replacement-bow-to-australia/)

4bee

2nd May 2019, 07:26 PM

Thought I was conversing to a sensible man . Guess I was wrong. Whatever floats your boat, mate.

So did I. Eerr helloooooooo, it was an observation of the time this bloke was in service. I didn't say ALL Stokers were like that but if the cap fits.........[smilebigeye]

NavyDiver

2nd May 2019, 10:27 PM

Perhaps the large difference in build times between warships and merchant vessels can be explained this way. Merchant vessels are ordered by companies who want them delivered tomorrow and out on the ocean hauling freight and making money. Warships are usually built to the beat of the government stroke except in wartime when need might become more urgent. Warship construction can be delayed or cancelled for political or budgetary reasons. "Treasurer, we need more money for schools, hospitals, and our salaries". "Well then, stop building those white elephants for the Navy and use that money."

The old days are over. Merchant Ships keels laid after next year have to have new low pollution engines and really only gas turbines make the grade. New MARPOL 2020 regulation (http://www.seatrade-maritime.com/images/PDFs/SOMWME-whitepaper_Sulphur-p2.pdf) on sulphur dioxide emissions requires all vessels globally to operate with no more than 0.5% sulphur in fuel content.

I loved a fuel oil burner HMAS Vampire blowing soot or smoke at least once a day. The Chief stoker would be stressed if delayed due to a pretty ship being down wind of us [biggrin] I hated it if in Whites and the wind was unkind!! [bighmmm][bighmmm][bighmmm]

Rolls Royce makes some cool ones (https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/maritime-antisub/2436-rolls-royce-lauds-ultra-low-maintenance-mt30)

bob10

3rd May 2019, 07:52 PM

Sigh. Try again. YouTube (https://youtu.be/s1gyA3MOIwo)

bob10

3rd May 2019, 08:00 PM

Engineering of the Titanic

YouTube (https://youtu.be/fHmgF4ibmuk)