2020 Defender - Current Defender / Series Owners Thoughts...

[Zeros]

The 2020 Defender is about to be revealed.

The JLR promotional spin and surrounding media frenzy are full of advertorial and gullible reports by acolytes hellbent on promoting the vehicle as being everything to everyone, virtually sight unseen. The lack of detail available has created a world of speculation. The ‘spy camo’ images although heavily disguised appear to show a Discovery 4 type vehicle with little reference to the iconic Defenders heritage.

What we can see is: 20 inch rims, low profile tyres. small load space, independent suspension / no live axles and not much else.

Theres a huge amount being said, claimed and professed by non-Defender owners, including the majority of motoring journos, commentators and Land Rover fans.

I’m interested to hear what Defender / Series owners think.

Obviously many of us are very happy to hold on to the Defenders we already own, but what about the legacy of the icon? the importance of Defender as a pragmatic, heavy duty work vehicle? the distinct possibility that the 2020 Defender will be just another SUV designed primarily for the urban market like all other current Land Rover models?

Defender / Series owners...who else is seeing through the spin?

Start your post with the model Defender/ Series you own...or have them in your signature...mine are below

[Homestar]

I’m not a Defender owner - I’ve only got Series vehicles, but I’m still not convinced it’s even going to make it to market yet. Still time to cancel the whole thing and come up with some BS excuse - even the Mules could be a ruse to gauge public opinion before they commit to making it.

And yes, I think it will be a Defender by name only and be both too expensive for the average Joe and not what made the Defender what it is at all.

But speculating on this side of the coin is no different really to speculating from the pro side of the argument - we still basically know SFA about it, and won’t until it’s officially released (If that happens)

[weeds]

Not much point posting whether it be serious or tongue in cheek......as you get drowned out by a couple of members.

Saw pics today of a troopy with just 20km on the clock getting its roof chopped off.......don’t reckon the all new Land Rover will be configured so that it can be converted to a Poptop.

If I was to change away from my TD5 HT it’d be a troopy......sadly Land Rover have turned it all into a circus.

[grey_ghost]

Me? ‘54, ‘55, ‘60, ‘61, ‘83 and an 89 Perentie (does that count?)

I am eagerly awaiting the new Defender but I fear that I won’t be able to afford it..

[rar110]

There is a lot of spin, Apple style marketing approach.

As a current defender owner, I hope the new Defender meets the requirements of broad appeal and secures its future.

It won’t have a ladder chassis of a MB GW Pro. But it might make clearer the line btw D5 and Defender. The D5 might look different in the future, as it’s competing with the RRS. The Evoke and DS also compete. Crazy stuff.

The new Defender will have better traction capability than the last Defender, if current models are an indication.

It probably won’t have the cargo space of the prev 110, but will equal or exceed the D5.

I can’t see it having a big (1 tonne) load carrying capacity.

I can see the possibility of 17” rims with a low output/capacity petrol 4 cyl. But can see that disappearing later if not sufficient sales numbers and 18” being the norm.

Overall I think it will be a good seller if QA meets expectations.

[roverrescue]

Until / unless they release a 130esque Ute I really don’t care.

I would never own a 110 with the poxy little door into the load space
How the hell is that useful?

I’m not holding my breath that the “new defender” will have:
-HD ute option
-have a tray (not a tub) minimum 1800x1800 and dual cab
-NOT weigh 2.8Tonnes empty
-must be able to eat a tonne in the tray plus load in then cab
- must have a steel bull bar with winch

I’m guessing zero from five

S

[weeds]

Until / unless they release a 130esque Ute I really don’t care.

I would never own a 110 with the poxy little door into the load space
How the hell is that useful?

I’m not holding my breath that the “new defender” will have:
-HD ute option
-have a tray (not a tub) minimum 1800x1800 and dual cab
-NOT weigh 2.8Tonnes empty
-must be able to eat a tonne in the tray plus load in then cab
- must have a steel bull bar with winch

I’m guessing zero from five

S

I’d say we will be keeping our current rides

[scarry]

I’d say we will be keeping our current rides

Thats because ts not a replacement of the old model.

Its actually more a replacement D4 spec vehicle,so maybe we could start a similar thread for D4 owners[biggrin]

Paticularly the ones that don't want a D5,and that would be quite a few of them i am guessing....

[cjc_td5]

The best thing would be for the new model to NOT be named a Defender.
The Defender model was 20 years over due to die. Too narrow, little safety etc etc. The Defender name plate should be put to rest in all of its glory.
The new model won't be in any way related to the old Defender, in many ways in GOOD ways. I only hope it offers models with sufficient bushability (ie vinyl floors, etc etc).

Give me a cross between my D4 and a 130" dual cab and I would have one in an instant.

[blackrangie]

The 2020 Defender is about to be revealed.

The JLR promotional spin and surrounding media frenzy are full of advertorial and gullible reports by acolytes hellbent on promoting the vehicle as being everything to everyone, virtually sight unseen. The lack of detail available has created a world of speculation. The ‘spy camo’ images although heavily disguised appear to show a Discovery 4 type vehicle with little reference to the iconic Defenders heritage.

What we can see is: 20 inch rims, low profile tyres. small load space, independent suspension / no live axles and not much else.

Theres a huge amount being said, claimed and professed by non-Defender owners, including the majority of motoring journos, commentators and Land Rover fans.


Is it fair to discredit JLR for marketing a new vehicle in the same way most companies do and to discredit any motoring journalists that have said anything about the new defender or anything positive about it?

On the other hand, heres a little bit of fairness for defender owners, happy to be shown anything that's not correct or "spin"?. Current defender owners might find some facts here too, like the video of the Hybrid 110 confirmed seen in moab with 32s, solid front/ rear recovery hooks, dual fuel flaps, insane approach, departure, rampover and wheel clearance etc


Won’t be retro... (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l660-defender/256581-won-t-retro-post2899935.html)




The distinct possibility that the 2020 Defender will be just another SUV designed primarily for the urban market like all other current Land Rover models?

who else is seeing through the spin?


If you really wanted defender owners genuine thoughts, I suggest to not create a leading thread post and to not use leading questions as above and also not state untruths about all current LR models being for the urban market, just because something is curved for fuel efficiency and comfy it does not mean its designed for the urban market, D5 is pretty much one of the best ALL terrain vehicles on earth for a start. All LR vehicles put a huge emphasis on off-road capability right down to the humble evoque.


To me, I feel based on your question to me in the wont be retro thread today, "do you own a defender" you have made this thread and worded it very carefully to try to get people that are very impressed with what they see of new defender to not post here if they currently own other landrover models such as the D1,D2,D3,D4,D5,RRC,RRS,RRV. We are flatered by all th effort that was gone to for us.

I'm a big believer in giving credit where credit is due, For example: even if I was previously wrong like the y62, turns out its great, but not the best looker imho.

With the new defender I jumped on the won't be retro thread mainly because of posts that where unfair to the new defender usually for some reason from 2 or 3 users (that also happen to own Toyotas,coincidence, who knows).I was seeing people on there seemingly trying to convince people it can't possibly be good with a few round edges and IFS and medium profile tyres. If thats their honest opinion no problems, however the other side needed to be shown and well from the research we have seen in won't be retro thread, it certainly looks to be a very fair replacement of the current defender in many ways. Saying nothing is known about it, saying nothing positive and saying its all "spin" is pretty strange imo, there is infact little that is NOT known fundamentally.

Ill be the first to admit I was wrong if we end up seeing the new defender is rubbish, however there is almost nothing that would give it such a title so far, as per the link attached, quite the opposite.

Im also interested in hearing from Current defender owners, however maybe in answer to a less leading simple question like:

Defender 2020 soon to be released, Current defender owners, what are your thoughts?

Would you not agree this would give fairer unbiased responses?

It is good to see though a few current defender owners on this thread already posting reasonable responses despite this.

[roverrescue]

Blackrangie,
I think the point is whatever gets released IS going to be polarizing
BUT from my perspective this is different to when Tojo released the 200
And 80 series owners all cried into their weetbix...

The difference is a defender is equivalent to a troopy or a cruiser ute

It is being replaced with maybe a 200 (likely a Rav4) and maybe a hilux.



If I wanted a chicks Ute with useless carrying capacity, sports car seating, leather seats and carpet I could have bought and broken any number of useless cars with a tub

I have no need for a chicks Ute

LR perhaps see no distinction between working vehicle and SUV and as such can morph the heritage of defender name onto a SUV

But there is.

I think your point was made in that other post- you want a car that is great is great for 5000km of bitumen then drives well off road. That is a lifestyle vehicle a compromise.

Some people don’t want a car? They want a work vehicle not a lifestyle vehicle.


Aaannnnd besides it will be stupid expensive with silly $4000 “options” to get a USB charger etc etc so despite the spin that they want to sell like Toyota’s this thing will be the biggest worlds best marketing hype ever... it will be a luxury lifestyle vehicle and they will maybe sell a few more than D5 but not that many....

S

[Pickles2]

Well, IMHO, this is just regurgitating more of the same, as NO-ONE has any real idea about the "New" Defender. Please note, I'm NOT having a go at anyone, if anyone wants to talk about, go for it, I just don't see the point.
Whatever it is, or is not, a good low mileage, original Puma, AFAIAC, is looking increasingly attractive as time goes by,....and by the way, I ain't biased, because I don't own one any more, just my opinion.
Pickles.

[Zeros]

This is a thread for Defender owners to discus the 2020 Defender from their perspective.

The thread is intended as a point of difference to the Won’t be Retro thread, which has essentially become a Land Rover promotional thread. Some Defender owners don’t feel free to discuss their points of view in that thread for various reasons.

Many Defender / Series owners are very disappointed in the way in which Land Rover have handled the development of the next Defender and the way in which the new Defender looks to be shaping up.

The qualification required for this thread is Defender / Series ownership.

If you haven’t or don’t own a Defender / Series vehicle please discuss the 2020 Defender on a different thread. Respectfully if you don’t own one you don’t have skin in the game and your priorities regarding what the new Defender should be are likely not the same as Defender owners.

It’s refreshing already to read some perspectives by actual Defender owners, not dominated by non-Defender owning commentators and promotional material.

Cheers Zeros.

[Pickles2]

This is a thread for Defender owners to discus the 2020 Defender from their perspective.

The thread is intended as a point of difference to the Won’t be Retro thread, which has essentially become a Land Rover promotional thread. Some Defender owners don’t feel free to discuss their points of view in that thread for various reasons.

Many Defender / Series owners are very disappointed in the way in which Land Rover have handled the development of the next Defender and the way in which the new Defender looks to be shaping up.

The qualification required for this thread is Defender / Series ownership.

If you haven’t or don’t own a Defender / Series vehicle please discuss the 2020 Defender on a different thread. Respectfully if you don’t own one you don’t have skin in the game and your priorities regarding what the new Defender should be are likely not the same as Defender owners.

It’s refreshing already to read some perspectives by actual Defender owners, not dominated by non-Defender owning commentators and promotional material.

Cheers Zeros.
I hear what you say, but I respectfully disagree.
Like I said, (& all IMHO), just because I don't currently own one makes absolutely no difference to the opinions I've always had, and still have, which haven't changed, and they are that my wife & I absolutely LOVED our Defender, it was one of the most character filled and enjoyable vehicles that we've ever owned, and we've owned a few.
So, I have nothing but good to say about Defender, I've followed all of the so called "info" on the "new" one, none of which is based on any REAL fact, because JLR have kept their "secret" so well!
As far as current owners being "disappointed"?.....yes I can see that, but that's just the point, I don't think JLR will be too concerned with "current owners" with only around 13000 sold in the year prior to the last "rush", where from memory I think the figure was approaching 15,000, a miniscule figure in the scheme of things. JLR will, IMHO anyway, whilst of course being "interested" in current Defender owners' opinions, will also be "interested" in a great many more "opinions" as they seek a greatly expanded market than that which applied to the "old" Defender.
All just, IMHO of course.
Pickles

[LRJim]

As said in the other threads, it will be a mess of complex wiring and components.
It wont be versatile and I dont mean the ability to enter underground carparks, I mean it wont be able to do a days work.
Soft and weak panel work more focused on looks than function, I wouldnt be climbing on the bonnet or fenders like I can on a series.
18"-20" rims? Really? they are only useful with 40"of rubber around them.
"Body Off" work in a series or defender is the norm and hassle free, the new defender will require a workshop of equipment to do the simplest of work, no more roadside work.
What looks like a crap seating position for a 4x4, no field of view like series and older discos
No PTO, No manual box, No live axles, No character at all
Will it be a good car to drive on and offroad? Sure it will be awsome.
Will it be a defender/series? No way in hell, Just a product for the modern glamper, I even doubt it will be tradie bling like all the other utes and 4x4s out there.

[alan48]

Hi Def etc owners, I one a puma 130cc (second one), have owned all series and defender and 110 models, raced a RR 2 door,and a P76 auto ute ,built a few, so feel I can comment.

To me a key 'gripe'may be that the new one--and my dealer says it IS coming and will be like a D4 not a D5 which he said is hardly moving out the door despite being a good vehicle but few want one--- may not be able to be modified/customised like a lot of us can and like to do up until now ( my stage one ambo a case in point started as an Isuzu SW and we converted to a Vietnam ambo body, got AJ to do a 110 front end with coils, discs, PAS etc--and all legal--well I think the way rego people are now this sort of mod/custom job will become very difficult with newer cars.

So I think the new Def will be great but not able to satisfy the desire to customise like many of us do, and this is ignoring its purchase price. If a ute does appear, and not guaranteed yet--but am sure the market will decide this then if varying bodies can be added then great.

Finally, and only my view--is that many of us feel our LR has a sole--ie we feel good when working on and using it BUT do Toyota etc and the more modern JLR owners get that feeling--or is it just a car to them-recently we did the Ridgetop Tour at Arkaroola in their LC --we were in a 200 series auto--and I could not help but feel that it was so much more comfortable and agile than my Def--yet I could not fall in love with it!
Are theses the reasons some of us are concerned--and of course they will be/partly electric but not sure I can recharge at Dalhousie for eg.

[Zeros]

I hear what you say, but I respectfully disagree.
Like I said, (& all IMHO), just because I don't currently own one makes absolutely no difference to the opinions I've always had, and still have, which haven't changed, and they are that my wife & I absolutely LOVED our Defender, it was one of the most character filled and enjoyable vehicles that we've ever owned, and we've owned a few.
So, I have nothing but good to say about Defender, I've followed all of the so called "info" on the "new" one, none of which is based on any REAL fact, because JLR have kept their "secret" so well!
As far as current owners being "disappointed"?.....yes I can see that, but that's just the point, I don't think JLR will be too concerned with "current owners" with only around 13000 sold in the year prior to the last "rush", where from memory I think the figure was approaching 15,000, a miniscule figure in the scheme of things. JLR will, IMHO anyway, whilst of course being "interested" in current Defender owners' opinions, will also be "interested" in a great many more "opinions" as they seek a greatly expanded market than that which applied to the "old" Defender.
All just, IMHO of course.
Pickles

All important in the discussion Pickles, and as I say in previous post... "If you haven’t or don’t own a Defender / Series vehicle" ...as such your past experience is absolutely relevant IMO.

Whilst it seems obvious that JLR are not all that interested in current Defender owners as potential future owners of new Defender, there is also a common misconception going around that owners of Current Defenders want a replica of the past. I don't believe this to be true.

IMO current Defender owners want a new model which is compatible with what they use their current Defender for, whether it's as a HD work ute, or a HD touring vehicle - designed primarily for the bush, not primarily for urban living.

The problem JLR will face if the new Defender is designed primarily for urban living (not the bush) like all it's other current models, is a distinct lack of diversity in terms of buyers. New Defender buyers will be competing with new Discovery buyers for example.

This is the basis of my concern about how the new Defender looks to be shaping up. Obviously actual details are very thin on the ground. But the point is, current Defender owners have differing opinions from many aspirational new Defender owners as to what the vehicle needs to be.

If JLR don't want to cater to current Defender owners needs, I would argue that rather than an increased market they may find a reduced market for both Defender and Discovery! ...with current Defender owners defecting to Toyota (as some here are already talking about) and current Discovery owners defecting to new Defender (as some are also quite excited about).

The reason only 13,000 Defenders sold in the last year, has a lot to do with JLR not updating the model earlier and already losing many customers to other brands. IMO if the new Defender is another SUV and not a HD work vehicle, they will also lose the majority of those 13,000 customers, including me.

[blackrangie]

Blackrangie,
I think the point is whatever gets released IS going to be polarizing
BUT from my perspective this is different to when Tojo released the 200
And 80 series owners all cried into their weetbix...

The difference is a defender is equivalent to a troopy or a cruiser ute

It is being replaced with maybe a 200 (likely a Rav4) and maybe a hilux.



If I wanted a chicks Ute with useless carrying capacity, sports car seating, leather seats and carpet I could have bought and broken any number of useless cars with a tub

I have no need for a chicks Ute

LR perhaps see no distinction between working vehicle and SUV and as such can morph the heritage of defender name onto a SUV

But there is.

I think your point was made in that other post- you want a car that is great is great for 5000km of bitumen then drives well off road. That is a lifestyle vehicle a compromise.

Some people don’t want a car? They want a work vehicle not a lifestyle vehicle.


Aaannnnd besides it will be stupid expensive with silly $4000 “options” to get a USB charger etc etc so despite the spin that they want to sell like Toyota’s this thing will be the biggest worlds best marketing hype ever... it will be a luxury lifestyle vehicle and they will maybe sell a few more than D5 but not that many....

S

Some good points, would love to get your thoughts over on this wont be retro thread post.

There seems to be the last skerric of hope for new defender deniers that it cant possibly be a vehicle that can do a days work, in many ways it infact will be much more suited to towing and payload carrying amd do it safer, than not only the current defender but also other well known other brand work trucks.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l660-defender/256581-won-t-retro-post2900016.html

[blackrangie]

The reason only 13,000 Defenders sold in the last year, has a lot to do with JLR not updating the model earlier and already losing many customers to other brands. IMO if the new Defender is another SUV and not a HD work vehicle, they will also lose the majority of those 13,000 customers, including me.They actually sold double that in the last year

[phin]

I own an 80", Series II, Series III, Defender 130 TD5 and a 300tdi Discovery. I've had zero interest in anything Land Rover has built since the Defender and Discovery II - too much focus on expensive, complex luxury vehicles for my liking. The new Defender will likely be more of the same whether the styling looks retro or not. If I were in the market for a new 4wd today I'd probably be looking at the new Jimny.

That said, a focus on luxury vehicles was probably the only way Land Rover was going to survive and thrive over the last 10-20 years - the commercial/farming market was long gone outside of the UK and Europe and the volume SUV market was moving away from the reasonably simple and capable offering of RRC, Disco 1 and II anyway. Seems like current Defender owners want Land Rover to build a 70 series and the market probably isn't there. Not even Toyota is really investing in that product.

But my contrarian view is this: as much as I love them, the Series III and Defender should really never have been built anyway. All the technology was there in 1970 to build a really successful and innovative 4wd to head off the likes of the 40 (and later) 70 series offerings from Toyota. With a little more investment, Land Rover could have been churning out V8 powered, coil sprung 110 and 130 utes with Range Rover derived cabins in the early 70s. The Santana 6 cylinder diesel (around at the time) would have been a great addition too. Instead we got a plastic grille, and it took another decade to use the Range Rover chassis and drivetrain, but with an uncomfortable and outdated body grafted on. Of course, the implosion of British industry in the 70s prevented the dream from becoming a reality, but one of the great 'what if's' I reckon.

[blackrangie]

I hear what you say, but I respectfully disagree.
Like I said, (& all IMHO), just because I don't currently own one makes absolutely no difference to the opinions I've always had, and still have, which haven't changed, and they are that my wife & I absolutely LOVED our Defender, it was one of the most character filled and enjoyable vehicles that we've ever owned, and we've owned a few.
So, I have nothing but good to say about Defender, I've followed all of the so called "info" on the "new" one, none of which is based on any REAL fact, because JLR have kept their "secret" so well!
As far as current owners being "disappointed"?.....yes I can see that, but that's just the point, I don't think JLR will be too concerned with "current owners" with only around 13000 sold in the year prior to the last "rush", where from memory I think the figure was approaching 15,000, a miniscule figure in the scheme of things. JLR will, IMHO anyway, whilst of course being "interested" in current Defender owners' opinions, will also be "interested" in a great many more "opinions" as they seek a greatly expanded market than that which applied to the "old" Defender.
All just, IMHO of course.
PicklesAgreed, JLR are on record as saying some die hard defender fans might not like it and especially if they are expecting a carbon copy of the current one, they will move the game along and bring it inline with current market expectations for a modern defender.

[Zeros]

Do you or have you ever owned a Defender Blackrangie?

[blackrangie]

I think coming from a series, I understand your comments as I respect the agricultural simplicity of the series defenders.



As said in the other threads, it will be a mess of complex wiring and components.

From what I have seen so far it will most likely be the most simple and rugged of the current Land Rovers also I would argue that the wiring in newer Land Rovers is more reliable than older ones this despite the fact there is more of it. Having a Range Rover classic I understand the fear of wiring more than anyone. To be honest modern wiring is one of the main reasons I am looking to upgrade. Have you seen a plane wiring loom? They are the most reliable vehicles on the planet and the most complex at the same time however they can achieve amazing things.



It wont be versatile and I dont mean the ability to enter underground carparks, I mean it wont be able to do a days work.
Soft and weak panel work more focused on looks than function, I wouldnt be climbing on the bonnet or fenders like I can on a series.


I would argue that modern monocoque Land Rovers are in fact much stiffer and the panel work better put together than the older ones. They will also seal a lot better.
I'm sure kits will become available to enable walking on the new Defenders bonnet without damaging it just like the current Defenders, however not being able to walk on a bonnet of a car does not excluder a four by four from being a potential workhorse, when is the last time you saw someone walking on a g wagen professional bonnet or a 79 series dual cab bonnet, or even a Hilux bonnet (biggest work ute seller) don't get me wrong I hope we can walk on the new defenders bonnet too, but it would not be a deal breaker for me or the market it would seem.



18"-20" rims? Really? they are only useful with 40"of rubber around them.


Times are changing, safety is needed on any cars that go over 80 km per hour on the freeway. The market today also demands on road performance with off-road performance. Especially if people are travelling long distances and don't have the luxury of doing it at 80 km per hour over three months. It about getting the right balance 6inches of sidewall with the modern LT tyres have proven reliable on/offroad on 18-20 inch wheels. Looks like moab vehicles are running 32s stock, so 34s easily added with little or no mods by the looks of the guard clearance.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l660-defender/256581-won-t-retro-post2900013.html



"Body Off" work in a series or defender is the norm and hassle free, the new defender will require a workshop of equipment to do the simplest of work, no more roadside work.


I would argue based on my own experience and the experience on this forum that despite being harder to work on and fix on the trail, newer Land Rovers actually don't break down anywhere near as much as the older ones. They seem to be able to cover great distances in a variety of terrains with very little actually going wrong with them, if something does go wrong it is usually a minor issue and can be cleared with scan tools.



What looks like a crap seating position for a 4x4, no field of view like series and older discos


Well judging by the fact that most modern cars have adjustable height seating I don't think this will be an issue and from what we have seen in the leaked photos there is also a third front seat which I believe is very similar to the old series vehicles.



Will it be a good car to drive on and offroad? Sure it will be awsome.


Agree with this, the testers at MOAB as seen in the won't be retro thread are reported to have been very impressed with how the new Defenders car handling MOAB

I'm not trying to disagree with you at all just giving a different point of view it is good to be challenged on our viewpoints just as you are challenging me.

Either way as has already been stated many times it is great that Land Rover made the series Land Rovers and still are backing them up, they realise the importance of them.

They will be around for a very long time to come long after many modern vehicles are in the scrap yard.

The modern Defender will have it's place too and hopefully it lives up to its heritage of being rugged and durable as JLR are promising.

I'm particularly excited about what is going to be available for the defender in a few years after the American aftermarket sinks it's teeth into it like it has with the Jeep.

It's really quite amazing how much was available for the old Defender even without huge numbers being sold in the states.

[Pickles2]

They actually sold double that in the last year
In 2015, there was the "rush", because they weren't making them any more, that was the only year when production increased,...some years they didn't even make 13000.
Pickles.

[blackrangie]

In 2015, there was the "rush", because they weren't making them any more, that was the only year when production increased,...some years they didn't even make 13000.
Pickles.Yeah i remember it, old defender had terrible sales, they defender was great in many ways, I bet dealers wished they had double the stock that year. They could have almost named their price toward the end. [emoji1787]

One of the main reasons the New Defender wont be a carbon copy is the shocking sales. I think first version of evoque sold nearly as many as all defenders combined.

They will be chasing 6 digit sales figures with the New Defender, from what i have seen they will get it and then some. They will also attain segment market share. Having said that there will be a few more competitors around come 2020.

[scarry]

Do you or have you ever owned a Defender Blackrangie?

Good point,if you don't actually own one,or have one provided as a company car,you will never know what its actually like.

You can read this,read that,look or drive one that a mate has or his uncle,or his brother,but if you don't have the vehicle day in and day out,you really don't have a good understanding of the vehicle,or know what its all about.

Same goes for a Toyota,as an example,some on here give other vehicles or brands a bash, and have never owned one,so in fact they really have no idea, or for that matter any other type/brand of vehicle.

Just saying,not trying to cause an argument,its a fact.

The D4 i have,as an example, has taken years to understand and work out how it all works,in many different driving conditions.Same with the Deefer my son has,i have spent a lot of time driving it in many conditions.

Back sort of on topic,I think the main issue with this new Deefer,is, JLR have once again moved a vehicle into a new class,as they did with the Discovery.Thats why it should be called something else as its not really a Defender as we all know one,and what a Defender in our eyes is,nor is a D5,still a Discovery.The D5 is really in the RRS,RR class.

Those that want a new vehicle in the old Defender class,won't go near a new one.

Looking at other brands,their vehicles generally stay in the same or very similar class to what the have always been in,think Patrol,Prado,LC80/100/200,Pajero,Pathfinder,LC 70 series,RAv4,and some LR's,Freelander,even RR.

JLR's vehicles used to stay in similar classes,but it seems in the last few years,their aim is to push vehicles into new classes,whether this is good or not,who knows,but it definitely changes their customer base.Many other vehicle brands seem to stay with the same customer base,and their sales talk for themselves.

[roverrescue]

Blackrange
First I found it crazy that you say they are chasing 6 figure sales

Since 2009 entire world wide sales of discovery all types (4,5)
Is only 353k according to Wiki averaging 35-40k a year

And since the 2020chicksdefender will be more like a 4 than anything
If they are lucky LR may crack 5 digit sales world wide???

The problem will be the 2020chicksdedender is merely going to scalp sales from elsewhere
In the company - even if they make a Ute version of the 2020chicksdefender it will never compete with
HilurangerBT50 etc etc as it will be too expensive

I’ll be surprised if worldwide they sell 40,000 a year of them

S

[roverrescue]

The significance of the above is that Toyota sells 50,000 hiluxes
In Australia alone.... more than the worldwide sales of discovery and likely more than the 2020chicksdefender worldwide.

It will be a niche lifestyle vehicle which has had a marketing excercise to get it started?

LR should have just built and released the bloody thing got it over and done with
Trash the defender name and move on
The thing will pass into the history books within a few years

S

[blackrangie]

Do you or have you ever owned a Defender Blackrangie?https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l660-defender/270203-2020-defender-current-defender-series-owners-thoughts-post2899948.html

[blackrangie]

Blackrange
First I found it crazy that you say they are chasing 6 figure sales

Since 2009 entire world wide sales of discovery all types (4,5)
Is only 353k according to Wiki averaging 35-40k a year

[Removed and ignored comments in the middle as they are intended to be offensive]

I’ll be surprised if worldwide they sell 40,000 a year of them

S

LR alone have sold 398K vehicles in the last year, with 110k in the last quarter alone..JLR sold 578K

You don't completely redesign a vehicle to try and sell the same amount as you said before.

If the new defender is what I think it's going to be 100k PY of the new Defenders will be very achievable especially considering they are addressing the main issues that kept people away from the defender in the first place, safety, comfort, performance and at the same time improving it's off road capability.

In my opinion I don't think the question will be who will buy one , Rather the question will rather be, who won't want to buy one [emoji1787][emoji8]

[gromit]

Great to see that there is yet another thread on the alleged new Defender......

What do we really know so far ?
Nothing firm just a couple of 'spy' shots of a mule.

As an existing owner I wouldn't buy a new one as a daily driver, mainly because of Land Rover service costs.
I do 40-45,000Km per year and run my own vehicle. I need something that doesn't cost the Earth to run or service over a 5 year period. I have a Defender plus a few Series vehicles for 'fun.

Land Rover will have done their market research and will have a market segment that they are aiming the sales at. They need volume not another high cost (to produce) low volume vehicle.
As already mentioned, maybe they should drop the Defender name.

The idea of it being based on the Disco 4 makes sense, a lot exists all they need to do is make a SWB version. Hopefully they keep the TDV6 motor.

Colin

[blackrangie]

Great to see that there is yet another thread on the alleged new Defender......

What do we really know so far ?
Nothing firm just a couple of 'spy' shots of a mule.

As an existing owner I wouldn't buy a new one as a daily driver, mainly because of Land Rover service costs.
I do 40-45,000Km per year and run my own vehicle. I need something that doesn't cost the Earth to run or service over a 5 year period. I have a Defender plus a few Series vehicles for 'fun.

Land Rover will have done their market research and will have a market segment that they are aiming the sales at. They need volume not another high cost (to produce) low volume vehicle.
As already mentioned, maybe they should drop the Defender name.

The idea of it being based on the Disco 4 makes sense, a lot exists all they need to do is make a SWB version. Hopefully they keep the TDV6 motor.

ColinHaha..the threads just keep coming [emoji1787] The only thing that is based on the Discovery 4 with the new defender from what we have seen on the won't be retro thread is the fake bonnet and the fake roofline and the fake rear window paneling it is intentional designed to deceive and imo look like a D4.

The 110 and 90 dont look like 7 seaters either, rather 6.

It will be on a completely different platform, the MLA, it will most likely have straight six ingenium petrol and diesel engines with confirmed hybrid as an option as seen in the MOAB video on wont be retro.. if the leaked internal photos are to be believed it will have a third front seat and a rugged utilitarian floor and a modern but utilitarian Dash.

Also has huge flares as standard and 32 inch tyres with 6-7 inches of tyre confirmed.

Better warm up your waving hand, ill be waving at you [emoji41]

[roverrescue]

Interesting BlackRange
I just went from wiki for numbers which said
Annual worldwide sales of D4 and now D5 has hovered around 35-40,000

Maybe the wijipaedia numbers are wrong but I can’t see them selling more than double the number of discoveries

You say JLR have sold 500k units
Maybe since the 1960s ?

There were only 1.1million sales in Australia 2018 and you say half of them were JLR

By 2021 worldwide they will have sold 30,000 “new defenders” and at no stage will they sell 100,000

[roverrescue]

Total sales Australia by brand 2018

Toyota 217,061 18.8%

Mazda 111,280 9.7%

Hyundai 94,187 8.2%

Mitsubishi 84,944 7.4%

Ford 69,081 6.0%

Holden 60,751 5.3%

Kia 58,815 5.1%

Nissan 57,699 5.0%

Volkswagen 56,620 4.9%

Honda 51,525 4.5%


Do the maths - JLR didn’t even make top ten and sold less than 50,000 total units

I think my numbers are right

And I’m certain the 2020chicksdefender will be no hilux killer
More hiluxes sold last year in Australia than all the luxo JLR SUV combined
The 2020 defender will be a byline on the sales statistics
Less than a rounding error!!!

Which means they probably should have actually made a proper work ute.
If your only selling 50,000 units worldwide anyways
May as well make them different to every other SUVbomb on the road

A

[roverrescue]

I am not vouching for these figures as 100% accurate but hey you gotta
Start somewhere

• Land Rover global sales by model 2013-2018 | Statistic (https://www.statista.com/statistics/387780/land-rover-global-sales-by-model/)

Since 2013 the only LR model to crack 100,000 units in a year is the evoque
And disco sport.

So I’ll pay you this the new defender may worldwide sell 100,000 units
But if my guess is right and it is priced at above D5 levels it won’t

And I Australia it will be a blip on the radar

S

[roverrescue]

With a bit of digging
2018 global Hilux sales
548,000 units

Ain’t not gonna be a hilux killer as purported early on

S

[gromit]

Haha..the threads just keep coming [emoji1787] The only thing that is based on the Discovery 4 with the new defender from what we have seen on the won't be retro thread is the fake bonnet and the fake roofline and the fake rear window paneling it is intentional designed to deceive and imo look like a D4.

The 110 and 90 dont look like 7 seaters either, rather 6.

It will be on a completely different platform, the MLA, it will most likely have straight six ingenium petrol and diesel engines with confirmed hybrid as an option as seen in the MOAB video on wont be retro.. if the leaked internal photos are to be believed it will have a third front seat and a rugged utilitarian floor and a modern but utilitarian Dash.

Also has huge flares as standard and 32 inch tyres with 6-7 inches of tyre confirmed.

Better warm up your waving hand, ill be waving at you [emoji41]

It'll be interesting to see how much of what you have stated is actually true.

Still not interested personally partly because of the Land Rover service charges, one of my boys was working at a dealership so I know that they charge about 3 times what I am paying on my daily driver. I'd need to get a paper round as well as my 9-5 job then there is the initial purchase price.....I'll stick with what I've got.

So it sounds like you are definitely buying one ?


Colin

[scarry]

.

So it sounds like you are definitely buying one ?


Colin

Easy choice with the colour,they only come in black and white[bigrolf]

[blackrangie]

It'll be interesting to see how much of what you have stated is actually true.

Still not interested personally partly because of the Land Rover service charges, one of my boys was working at a dealership so I know that they charge about 3 times what I am paying on my daily driver. I'd need to get a paper round as well as my 9-5 job then there is the initial purchase price.....I'll stick with what I've got.

So it sounds like you are definitely buying one ?


ColinHey matey, yeah not trying to be right, just trying to help, don't mind if I'm wrong and no doubt i will be on some.

Nothings definite with buying, its just looking that way based on the evidence ive seen to date. Preorders are refundable [emoji6]

Much of what I and others have put down in "wont be retro" is not opinion, its rather based on facts, happy to be shown otherwise and will remove, its for the LR community not myself. Bit of a hobby to help pass the time whilst we wait for the New Defender.

[blackrangie]

Easy choice with the colour,they only come in black and white[bigrolf][emoji1787][emoji1419]

[blackrangie]

With a bit of digging
2018 global Hilux sales
548,000 units

Ain’t not gonna be a hilux killer as purported early on

SAgreed unless it is really really special and desirable enough to bring Hilux fans over, i dont know if anyone has purported it as a hilux killer?
Even so it would have to be something amazing and priced very reasonably to get even half of hiluxs sales.
Im not sure if JLR are targeting that market though, time will tell.

[blackrangie]

There were only 1.1million sales in Australia 2018 and you say half of them were JLR

I think we have our wires crossed bud, I'm talking worldwide in this post [emoji1417]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l660-defender/270203-2020-defender-current-defender-series-owners-thoughts-post2900110.html

[weeds]

What happen to the thread title.....current defender owners.

[gromit]

Hey matey, yeah not trying to be right, just trying to help, don't mind if I'm wrong and no doubt i will be on some.



If you're not right how are you helping ?

Colin

[blackrangie]

If you're not right how are you helping ?

ColinHey Colin, good question, as above I didn't say I was right or helping(that's up to each individual to decide if they feel helped in some way), same is true for everyone until the fat lady sings, however most of what I and others have put up regarding the New Defender in "wont be retro" thread and here is based on either JLR on record comments or something factual or reasonable and not just made up for fun, we are happy to stand corrected on any point, for you to add your personal findings or research or for you to point out anything you disagree with and ill relook at it for us when i get a chance.

Its great to see opinions of defender owners here, some are sold, others are optimistic about the new defender, some are undicided, yet others will drive their series for life and that's all good.

Maybe also in regards to help, some might find it helpful to be challenged as to what they believe is correct, as i am by others, others not so much.

Point is to try to show eachother respect regardless if we agree with opinion and enjoy this time in history discussing the new defender. [emoji41][emoji1417]

[JDNSW]

I can't really comment on the new Defender - there is simply not enough known about it. And I doubt I will ever be able to afford one, or for that matter need one; my 110 has only done 650,000km

[blackrangie]

my 110 has only done 650,000km

Was that a typo? [emoji15][emoji1417]

What Engine, original?

[JDNSW]

Was that a typo? [emoji15][emoji1417]

No

What Engine, original?

Isuzu, and yes, original.

[blackrangie]

Isuzu, and yes, original.Very impressive! Any tips on how you have kept it running so long?

[Homestar]

It's an Isuzu - it's only just run in. [emoji106][emoji6]

[irondoc]

I'm not a current or former defender owner, so won't be posting on this thread......

[blackrangie]

I'm not a current or former defender owner, so won't be posting on this thread......[emoji23]

[Robmacca]

Until / unless they release a 130esque Ute I really don’t care.

I would never own a 110 with the poxy little door into the load space
How the hell is that useful?

I’m not holding my breath that the “new defender” will have:
-HD ute option
-have a tray (not a tub) minimum 1800x1800 and dual cab
-NOT weigh 2.8Tonnes empty
-must be able to eat a tonne in the tray plus load in then cab
- must have a steel bull bar with winch

I’m guessing zero from five

S


Here's the 130 replacement [biggrin]

https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/foundry/image/?q=70&w=1440&url=https%3A%2F%2Fapi.thedrive.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F04%2FJeep-Gladiator-Hero-Render.jpg%3Fquality%3D85

[blackrangie]

Here's the 130 replacement [biggrin]

https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/foundry/image/?q=70&w=1440&url=https%3A%2F%2Fapi.thedrive.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F04%2FJeep-Gladiator-Hero-Render.jpg%3Fquality%3D85You bought a Jeep? [emoji6] nice render!

Looks tuff and a lot to like about the new jeep, however a few problems for the gladiator.

Mainly terrible rampover, departure and 1star safety.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l660-defender/256581-won-t-retro-182.html#post2898965

[JDNSW]

Very impressive! Any tips on how you have kept it running so long?

Just fix things as they need it. The engine has had front and rear seals replaced, a new sump gasket, and an exhaust manifold gasket. Has had problems with both starter and alternator, thermostat replaced several times. Probably needs the injectors checked now. Did them about 150k, and was told I'd wasted my money.

But as Homestar says - its an Isuzu. Change the oil regularly, feed it clean fuel, don't let it overheat too often, and it just keeps going. That is the plus side. The minus is (literally) rivet loosening vibration at idle, and not all that much power. The torque is none too high, but is available over an impressive range.

May not do a million kilometres, but should do 750k without serious issues. I have a stretch of road that I do up hill from a standing start on the way home from town, and check where I can reach 100k accelerating flat out. This indicates performance has not dropped noticeably in the last 25 years.

Rest of the vehicle sort of keeps up. consumables such as tie rod ends, brake pads (two sets) rear brake drums, three sets of linings, handbrake lining, transfer case seals, clutch, hydraulic parts, steering box, steering column U-joint, two sets of shocks.

[roverrescue]

McGovern I believe said hilux killer in the earliest conversations about it
I had a chuckle then but didn’t even look at sales numbers?

Time will tell

I’m betting they don’t even release a Ute first up 🤦*♂️

S

[weeds]

McGovern I believe said hilux killer in the earliest conversations about it
I had a chuckle then but didn’t even look at sales numbers?

Time will tell

I’m betting they don’t even release a Ute first up [emoji1751]*[emoji3603]

S

Might be more capable than a hi-lux....but won’t kill off the hi-lux nor will it covert hi-lux owners.

I recon my hi-lux will still be more value for money the the all new Land Rover.......hence why they are king of fleet.

[blackrangie]

McGovern I believe said hilux killer in the earliest conversations about it
I had a chuckle then but didn’t even look at sales numbers?

Time will tell

I’m betting they don’t even release a Ute first up [emoji1751]*[emoji3603]

SI tend to agree, but might be surprised, time will tell [emoji1417]

[gromit]

Hey Colin, good question, as above I didn't say I was right or helping(that's up to each individual to decide if they feel helped in some way), same is true for everyone until the fat lady sings, however most of what I and others have put up regarding the New Defender in "wont be retro" thread and here is based on either JLR on record comments or something factual or reasonable and not just made up for fun, we are happy to stand corrected on any point, for you to add your personal findings or research or for you to point out anything you disagree with and ill relook at it for us when i get a chance.

Its great to see opinions of defender owners here, some are sold, others are optimistic about the new defender, some are undicided, yet others will drive their series for life and that's all good.

Maybe also in regards to help, some might find it helpful to be challenged as to what they believe is correct, as i am by others, others not so much.

Point is to try to show eachother respect regardless if we agree with opinion and enjoy this time in history discussing the new defender. [emoji41][emoji1417]

I'll sit on the sidelines while the self appointed 'experts' discuss further.

Colin

[blackrangie]

I'll sit on the sidelines while the self appointed 'experts' discuss further.

ColinNo worries either way matey, would love to get your thoughts though if and when you feel comfortable, Im certainly no "expert", just relaying info to help others and myself pass the time whilst we wait, wait and wait some more.

[granny]

Might be more capable than a hi-lux....but won’t kill off the hi-lux nor will it covert hi-lux owners.

I recon my hi-lux will still be more value for money the the all new Land Rover.......hence why they are king of fleet.

How can land rover expect to compete in the same market as the hilux or any other commercial market for that matter when they have failed to have a vehicle available for several years. After all they new they were going to stop defender production and still had nothing. This is the fastest growing vehicle market, Mercedes could see this and have released new models while land rover stuffs around for how long with no vehicle to compete in this market. This is why i feel land rover will not be trying to compete with other commercial vehicles. I have a series 3swb and a hilux as a daily drive that i want to replace and am trying to wait until i see what land rover offers, i guess thats what land rover are trying to achieve by releasing spy photos and the like.

[butundede]

The best thing about the eventual release of the “new defender”, will be Ineos releasing their “new defender” shortly afterwards.
We own a Isuzu powered 110, I won’t be changing from this for a remote area travel unit. But if there is something that resembles where the puma defender left off, I’d consider it for a daily. I’ve owned a 2013 dual cab hilux (replaced our Td5 110), other than the incredible resale value, it’s two years of my motoring life that I’ll never get back.
Now I drive a 1995 Vitara as a daily, and despite all it’s failings, at $300 total purchase cost, at least when it comes to resale, I can’t really lose! I’m happy to drive it and wait for a new product that is a genuine replacement for a defender, we’ve almost purchased a Puma, but the idea of paying exorbitant prices for a vehicle thats in the price range of a new vehicle makes it hard to justify, maybe the best buys at the moment are some of the Td5 and Tdi vehicles.
So I guess i’m hedging my bets on something with a bit of integrity coming from JLR or Ineos.
Maybe nothing good will come from this, and old defenders will become priceless, although, to me at least, ours already is.
cheers, Bob

[ramblingboy42]

2020 Defender - Current Defender / Series Owners Thoughts... (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l660-defender/270203-2020-defender-current-defender-series-owners-thoughts-post2899948.html)

the answer should be "NO" , shouldn't it?

[blackrangie]

Land Rover Defender: Extreme off-road and SVR versions could be on the cards | CarAdvice (https://www.caradvice.com.au/748538/land-rover-defender-extreme-off-road-and-svr-versions-could-be-on-the-cards/)

Svx on the way and fords raptor guy hired[emoji7]

[blackrangie]

The best thing about the eventual release of the “new defender”, will be Ineos releasing their “new defender” shortly afterwards.
We own a Isuzu powered 110, I won’t be changing from this for a remote area travel unit. But if there is something that resembles where the puma defender left off, I’d consider it for a daily. I’ve owned a 2013 dual cab hilux (replaced our Td5 110), other than the incredible resale value, it’s two years of my motoring life that I’ll never get back.
Now I drive a 1995 Vitara as a daily, and despite all it’s failings, at $300 total purchase cost, at least when it comes to resale, I can’t really lose! I’m happy to drive it and wait for a new product that is a genuine replacement for a defender, we’ve almost purchased a Puma, but the idea of paying exorbitant prices for a vehicle thats in the price range of a new vehicle makes it hard to justify, maybe the best buys at the moment are some of the Td5 and Tdi vehicles.
So I guess i’m hedging my bets on something with a bit of integrity coming from JLR or Ineos.
Maybe nothing good will come from this, and old defenders will become priceless, although, to me at least, ours already is.
cheers, BobWill be very interesting times for sure + rivian also and bronco

[micksta1973]

Just found this. Land Rover USA (@LandRoverUSA) | Twitter (https://twitter.com/LandRoverUSA)

[DiscoMick]

Just found this. Land Rover USA (@LandRoverUSA) | Twitter (https://twitter.com/LandRoverUSA)
Interesting photo. Is this the first uncovered new Defender pic?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5WyKsbWAAIeE4Q.jpg:large

Land Rover USA (@LandRoverUSA) | Twitter (https://twitter.com/LandRoverUSA)

[blackrangie]

Interesting photo. Is this the first uncovered new Defender pic?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5WyKsbWAAIeE4Q.jpg:large

Land Rover USA (@LandRoverUSA) | Twitter (https://twitter.com/LandRoverUSA)It's getting pretty close to being uncovered but I believe there is still some Camouflage on the bonnet front end and roof. [emoji7]

[DiscoMick]

It appears to narrow at the rear.

[goingbush]

Jeez, didn't take the photo shoppers long !

http://goingbush.com/AULRO/plumber.jpg

[blackrangie]

Jeez, didn't take the photo shoppers long !

http://goingbush.com/AULRO/plumber.jpgHaha..you been busy mate? Naughty GB [emoji6]

[blackrangie]

It appears to narrow at the rear.https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l660-defender/256581-won-t-retro-post2904880.html

Yeah we had a chat about that the other day on retro.

[DiscoMick]

The shape reminds me of a Prado. Not a good thing.

[blackrangie]

The shape reminds me of a Prado. Not a good thing.Yeah has a bit of prado, defender, 200, gwagon, when we see the full stance it will come alive imo, almost half the tyres outside body

[gromit]

They've made a vehicle that will appeal to the masses which makes financial sense.

I'm not sure it should carry the Defender name, aesthetically it seems to have lost the Defender DNA (but probably retains the defender off road capabilities).

I'm not in their target market for a number of reasons, I'm sure it will sell well but If I was in out my Series/Defender would I wave to one ? Probably not as I wouldn't recognise it as a Land Rover because it's so similar to a number of other 4wd's. Plus the driver wouldn't have a clue as to why they were getting waved at......


Colin

[cripesamighty]

“Plus the driver wouldn't have a clue as to why they were getting waved at......”

That comment there speaks volumes.