Oil Leak 3.0L D4 - Oil cooler and filter assembly -should it have a hole here!

[disco4now]

I have been chasing an oil leak for some time on my 2010 3.0L D4. I now think I have located where its coming from. The oil appears down the back of the bell housing and then everywhere eventually. Leaks at the top of the engine take a while to fill up the valley and after it is cleaned out when chasing the leak it disappears for a while. I put some luminous dye in to try and help. I had just changed the filter and saw some oil around the bottom so tightened the filter up to try and stop it, but still there. I removed the filter and cleaned it up, and found the oil coming from the oil cooler and filter assembly, not from where the filter screws in.

150045
This shows what the filter housing looks like. The arrow points to where I found and unexpected hole. Don't know if it should be there or not. It at the bottom of a little valley/recess about 3/4mm deep.

150046
This is a photo looking down on mine with the filter removed. The arrow shows the little hole.

150047

This shows the oil under ultra voilet light after it has been idling for a few minutes. Th oil comes out the little hole, fills the first valley, overflows and fills the next and then continues on.
So its not coming from a loose/leaking oil filter.

The part number for the oil cooler and filter housing seems to be LR013149 which supercedes to LR040738.

So my questions are:
Anyone seen this before?
Is the hole supposed to be there and something underneath is leaking?
Anyone had the assembly replaced?




150048

Here is the setup I used to suck the oil out of the valley. A reasonable amount in there.

Gerry

[PerthDisco]

Thinking there could be a manufacturing glitch?

Unless there is an internal restriction and this is a pressure bypass?

More likely this hole is a bracket supporting some internal gizmo and is leaking somehow.

Great investigative work btw!

[Graeme]

It appears to be a casting fault that has finally burst through. If replacing the housing yourself, be very careful that no dirt or debris of any sort can enter the oil holes as at least one of them will be post-filter so the dirt/debris will go straight to all the bearings and turbos and therefore necessitating a replacement engine.

[loanrangie]

Casting flaw for sure, as its leaking externally its definitely not supposed to be there.

[disco4now]

Thanks for the replies.
Any thoughts about trying some JB Weld in there as a temporary fix. Its quite a small hole so I don't think any would go through to the inside, but could get quite a good plug into that recess that its at the bottom of. I am thinking the pressure of the oil here is what is provided by the oil going through the filter, as I think it drops straight thru to the sump from the filter.
Just looking at some service notes:
March 2017 was noted oil in the valley when the body was off. Cleaned up and put down to possible previous leaking O ring on filter.
March 2018 investigated again because of oil in driveway. Cleaned up but could not find the source. Put down to me not tightening the filter enough.
So its probably been going on for over two years, maybe getting a little worse.

I am going away with the caravan for about a month after Easter so no time to get it fixed, will do a about 2K so will just keep an eye to the oil level. I don't think its getting dramatically worse but would like to see it stopped and be reassured its not the front oil seal about to pop out.

Thanks
Gerry

[PerthDisco]

Thanks for the replies.
Any thoughts about trying some JB Weld in there as a temporary fix. Its quite a small hole so I don't think any would go through to the inside, but could get quite a good plug into that recess that its at the bottom of. I am thinking the pressure of the oil here is what is provided by the oil going through the filter, as I think it drops straight thru to the sump from the filter.
Just looking at some service notes:
March 2017 was noted oil in the valley when the body was off. Cleaned up and put down to possible previous leaking O ring on filter.
March 2018 investigated again because of oil in driveway. Cleaned up but could not find the source. Put down to me not tightening the filter enough.
So its probably been going on for over two years, maybe getting a little worse.

I am going away with the caravan for about a month after Easter so no time to get it fixed, will do a about 2K so will just keep an eye to the oil level. I don't think its getting dramatically worse but would like to see it stopped and be reassured its not the front oil seal about to pop out.

Thanks
Gerry

Just solvent clean and fill that entire well with 5 minute Arildite. Will not travel too far if you give it a minute or two after mixing.

[Graeme]

Oil is not filtered just to go to the sump! From the filter it goes to the crankshaft bearings, piston cooling jets and turbo bearings. The oil will be under pressure from the oil pump.

[disco4now]

Unless there is an internal restriction and this is a pressure bypass?



Just an update to say that hole is there by design as its in a new one,not exactly sure of its purpose, probably to tell you when its stuffed. Blocking it does not help, so probably not a good idea, oil found somewhere else to come out . The oil coming out must indicate some issue so I am booked in to get the oil cooler assembly replaced.

[DiscoJeffster]

I bought one this week. In the box new it has that hole. I assume it’s part of the manufacturing process. I cannot wait for the pleasure of fitting it. I could also see the hole in my original unit

[Eric SDV6SE]

I bought one this week. In the box new it has that hole. I assume it’s part of the manufacturing process. I cannot wait for the pleasure of fitting it. I could also see the hole in my original unit

So is the hole all the way through or does it just leave a thin wall section? Can't see a reason for the hole. To vent oil to the outside is very weird. I would have expected that a pressure relief would vent back to the sump...


Does the oil filter or filter housing cover the hole when screwed down? Perhaps it's a weird way of ensuring that an OEM filter or housing is used.

Having said that, I use after market mahle oil filters and the oem filter cover, and I don't have any oil leaking out of that area. I'm going to have a look at my oil pump tonight and try to post a picture here.

Unless it is a manufacturing defect and even the new unit is affected....Hope not for DJs sake....

[DiscoJeffster]

No it’s no a defect. I’ll take a photo of it tonight. Yours will have it too. It’s a manufacturing element

[disco4now]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ_EjIH5uYg

You can see the hole at about 20 seconds in.

[Eric SDV6SE]

Still baffles me at this point what the hole in question in the body is for...

[DiscoJeffster]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190612/21993197e3c316e71b6bd21e864cfa8c.jpg

[Eric SDV6SE]

Here's mine, bit of crud in the bottom of the recess, but no oil leak. Thinking about it a bit more, i think this hole is part of the upper housing casting riser or release, i.e. somewhere to lift the casting out of the mould once cooled. So the oil must come from the cooler/heat exchanger underneath if thats failed or cracked somewhere or the seals themselves.

151831

The oil on the left hand side is from the drivers side y piece throttle body to manifold seal.

[Hugh Jars]

On a couple of cars and bikes I’ve owned, there have been ‘witness holes’ to indicate an internal leak (usually a seal) of oil or coolant.
My current bike has one on the side of the block to indicate a water pump seal leak (pump is internal).
I suspect that the one in this discussion is for an internal oil seal of some description.

[Eric SDV6SE]

On a couple of cars and bikes I’ve owned, there have been ‘witness holes’ to indicate an internal leak (usually a seal) of oil or coolant.
My current bike has one on the side of the block to indicate a water pump seal leak (pump is internal).
I suspect that the one in this discussion is for an internal oil seal of some description.
Makes sense. So via the tell-tale you can see whether you’ve got a leak on the oil or coolant side of the cooler.

[Graeme]

If it's the same as the 4.4's cooler then the top gasket seals both oil and coolant. I suspect that if the hole is a witness hole then it is used to check if the gasket between the housing and the cooler is leaking as it could be difficult to determine whether oil is emerging from the upper gasket or from the seals underneath the cooler.

[DiscoJeffster]

Ordered a couple of these weird seals that seal the oil air separator and block. I don’t think they’re leaking but figured while I had it all apart I’d try and change them. I say try as I suspect they’re going to be a real pain to extract as they are metal body with rubber seal so I predict they’ll be wedged in super tight.

And after all this I still suspect it’s the cam seals on the rear not the cooler, but as I can’t explain the oil in the V I’ll do it all anyway.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190613/7ed9df8d0e21e685b3c8b173b385e3aa.jpg

[disco4now]

I have now had the oil cooler replaced and pulled the old one apart and looked what the hole might do. When you take the top off the housing you can see the oil and coolant journals. The hole in question comes thru to a void between an oil and coolant journal. So if no hole, I guess a pocket of air expanding and contracting until it does something. With the hole , if oil leaks in you see oil, if coolant leaks in you see coolant. If you have oil and block it (as I did), then oil might then push into the coolant. I think this is what happened when I blocked it as after about 2k I noticed some oil in coolant, so in process of getting that out now that its repaired.

Regards
Gerry


152293

[PerthDisco]

Very clever!

[Graeme]

Whilst I don't subscribe to the cavity expanding air aspect, having a tell-tale hole that weeps coolant or oil would be by design and would necessitate a common cavity.

Is not a replacement gasket available? One is for the 2.7's and 4.4's coolers so I would expect one for the 3.0's cooler too.

[PerthDisco]

Had a marine engine with a PTO engine driven raw water impeller pump with same principle. Weep hole if oil coming out shaft seal to engine side gear drive failed. Sea water coming out shaft seal to salt water pump had failed.

[DiscoJeffster]

Well I changed my oil cooler today on my D4 3L. Not the easiest of jobs. As I think Justin advised, I had to trim the intake manifold to get it out. Thanks Justin for that tip else I’d probably have either cried (more) or done something more drastic. Got it back together and thought I’d completely screwed the car. Started up and there a god awful intermittent screech. I think it was the water pump as the cooling system was running low and needed bleeding and topping - not sure - but feared the worst. Also as advised I drained the oil to rid it of any coolant. Interestingly I also drained via the sump after vacuuming it out. I got about 10ml out additionally so vacuum extraction is pretty good! I did run through a litre of fresh oil top to bottom to try and flush out any residual coolant trapped in the sump. Very little in the end. I was pretty careful and taped up everything as soon as I could.

Don’t think it was my leak source. I think I’m just going to fork out the cash and get it body off and find all the leaks and fix it once and for all.
265,000km and still a (wet/oily) dream of a car.

[Graeme]

152293
How was the gasket - had it gone hard?

[DiscoJeffster]

Hi Graeme. I didn’t strip down the oil cooler as yet. I replaced the entire unit top to bottom. The o-rings that interface the block were pretty flat but I think they still had a seal, hence I don’t think it was my problem

[Eric SDV6SE]

Started up and there a god awful intermittent screech. I think it was the water pump as the cooling system was running low and needed bleeding and topping - not sure - but feared the worst.
Know how you feel, DJ, I had the same when I changed out the coolant last December. Once bled and topped up all ok. Sorry to hear that the cooler is not the source of the oil leaks, hope you get that sorted.

[DiscoJeffster]

So picks of the cooler disassembled. Interesting muck build up on the coolant channels

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190714/290b90af80142889b21930cd286ad757.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190714/5fad81b61e2215fad513ca935626d478.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190714/29f7460fe9539536eebaa22a13ff8170.jpg

[Eric SDV6SE]

Thanks DJ. Interesting that there does not appear to be any "tracking" from the oil side to the inspection hole. Have you noticed oil in the coolant at all?

[Graeme]

The gasket looks to be cooked so even if it wasn't leaking, I suspect that it would soon start.

[DiscoJeffster]

Thanks DJ. Interesting that there does not appear to be any "tracking" from the oil side to the inspection hole. Have you noticed oil in the coolant at all?

No. There were no internal leaks in the cooler. I checked and the seal was still ok between oil and water sections. It was barely holding on the end. When I ran a straight edge along that section where the seal was, it was barely contacting. I may have had a leak there.

[DiscoJeffster]

The gasket looks to be cooked so even if it wasn't leaking, I suspect that it would soon start.

Hey Graeme. Yes, it was weird, and only on the coolant section, not the oil sections of the cooler gasket. I am actually happy it's replaced.

[DiscoJeffster]

Procedure - sorry no photos.


Remove top intercooler hose
Remove intake bend that attaches to Y-piece/throttle body
Remove throttle body
Remove top radiator hose element that connect to the poorly titled "thermostat housing".
Remove water outlet/"thermostat housing"
Remove oil/air separator at rear of engine. Very difficult to remove as the clip that hold it in place breaks sadly - tight on seals
Remove oil filter and put to one side
Remove right hand glow plug cable assembly
Move left hand glow plug out of the way (rear one can't be accessed so you're kind of making room
Remove front right hand glow plug - you'll want the clearance to avoid damaging it I felt. Mine was easy to remove.
You will now need to unbolt the cooler, 6 10mm bolts - v will now flood with oil and water
This is the time you will find you will spend 30 minutes working out how to ease it up/forward/ around to clear the fuel pump casing at the rear
Now you need to start planning how much of the left hand intake manifold you will need to cut off to get it out. You take it out between the two intakes of the manifolds - it can't come out upwards.
small cut by small cut you'll get just enough to reef it out.
Cover oil galleries as fast as you can to avoid further issues. Endless coolant will be escaping. Mop it up.
Replace cooler in reverse.
Aside from the cutting bit, the assembly is the complete reverse.


I just did that from memory - it's probably accurate and reflects my approach.


You will lose around 2-3L of coolant in the process.
You will need to fully bleed and add back the missing coolant.
I highly recommend doing an oil change at the same time. This is because you will inevitably get coolant down the main feed line into the bearings and possibly into the drains.
I would also change the seals in the block that seal the oil/air separator (2 x133706. ) They will likely be tough by now. You lever them out (with some difficulty).
You are supposed to also change the seals on the throttle body and "thermostat housing"/water outlet, but some get away without doing this.
Oil cooler comes with the new o-rings installed, plus an oil filter.

[PerthDisco]

Thanks DJ

So my read of this is to do this preventative repair circa 250,000km on 2.7 or 3.0 engines.

It’s similar to preventatively replacing the alternator pre 170,000km

[NavyDiver]

Thanks for the post DJ. About to join you replacing mine VIA the crew at Ritta LD as I am a wowzer[biggrin] Only 297000 on my new D3 so I think its a bit of a sook as my last D3 was well past that and no oil drops at all

RE Replacement as Preventative maintenance- I do not think that would be necessary as the leak which started last week is noticeable but not impacting on the oil level after two weeks.

The nice gents (and lady) at Ritta did mention it is not uncommon so your detailed help may be well used.

[Gravy]

Great how to summary, will be putting it into practice over the next few days.



Procedure - sorry no photos.


Remove top intercooler hose
Remove intake bend that attaches to Y-piece/throttle body
Remove throttle body
Remove top radiator hose element that connect to the poorly titled "thermostat housing".
Remove water outlet/"thermostat housing"
Remove oil/air separator at rear of engine. Very difficult to remove as the clip that hold it in place breaks sadly - tight on seals
Remove oil filter and put to one side
Remove right hand glow plug cable assembly
Move left hand glow plug out of the way (rear one can't be accessed so you're kind of making room
Remove front right hand glow plug - you'll want the clearance to avoid damaging it I felt. Mine was easy to remove.
You will now need to unbolt the cooler, 6 10mm bolts - v will now flood with oil and water
This is the time you will find you will spend 30 minutes working out how to ease it up/forward/ around to clear the fuel pump casing at the rear
Now you need to start planning how much of the left hand intake manifold you will need to cut off to get it out. You take it out between the two intakes of the manifolds - it can't come out upwards.
small cut by small cut you'll get just enough to reef it out.
Cover oil galleries as fast as you can to avoid further issues. Endless coolant will be escaping. Mop it up.
Replace cooler in reverse.
Aside from the cutting bit, the assembly is the complete reverse.


I just did that from memory - it's probably accurate and reflects my approach.


You will lose around 2-3L of coolant in the process.
You will need to fully bleed and add back the missing coolant.
I highly recommend doing an oil change at the same time. This is because you will inevitably get coolant down the main feed line into the bearings and possibly into the drains.
I would also change the seals in the block that seal the oil/air separator (2 x133706. ) They will likely be tough by now. You lever them out (with some difficulty).
You are supposed to also change the seals on the throttle body and "thermostat housing"/water outlet, but some get away without doing this.
Oil cooler comes with the new o-rings installed, plus an oil filter.

[DiscoJeffster]

I just checked and the references to left and right relate to the view from the drivers seat as it should be, so when I say “left hand manifold”, it’ll be on your right as you look at the engine bay. Just thought I’d add that as I didn’t mention that in the guide.

[Eric SDV6SE]

I just checked and the references to left and right relate to the view from the drivers seat as it should be, so when I say “left hand manifold”, it’ll be on your right as you look at the engine bay. Just thought I’d add that as I didn’t mention that in the guide.

Thanks DJ was wondering about that orientation. Sounds like a pita job.

[PerthDisco]

I just checked and the references to left and right relate to the view from the drivers seat as it should be, so when I say “left hand manifold”, it’ll be on your right as you look at the engine bay. Just thought I’d add that as I didn’t mention that in the guide.

You didn’t have to disconnect and remove the main harness loom connections and coolant pipe across the back of the engine to get better access space?

[Gravy]

Well after sourcing a new oil cooler out of the UK I commenced removing the old.

I followed the instructions located here to nearly the letter, only major addition was I drained the coolant prior to commencing, this saved considerable spillage as I removed components.

The hard part of the process is biting the bullet and cutting the LH Manifold to allow removal of the cooler, images of how much I removed and the engine nearly ready for the cut is attached.( I had to remove the LH Glow Plug Harness, free the rear bracket assembly and 2 Glow Plugs in addition to what is depicted.)

When I had the cooler out I split it. Well Land Rover needs to do some engineering homework. The seal material is not compatible with the red radiator coolant used and had began to decompose, probably a life of only 7 years and 120K does not meet good practice.

There is also issues with the O ring groove dimensions verses the O rings used. The rings are being used as 'static seals' and there is negible clamping force when the cooler is assembled to the engine block. In my case the O rings where no longer proud of the cooler mating faces, no wonder I had leakage.

I will be checking for this issue on the new replacement.174034174035

I am beginning to second guess why I bought an English vehicle, my RAAF experience with British aircraft and restoration of a 1954 MG TF should have taught me better.

[Tombie]

The seal compound is very compatible with the coolant. Its heat and time thats taken to it. 7 years for an elastomer is pretty good.

The comment about the seal sitting flush with the housing is again, heat set, and expected.

[Gravy]

The seal compound is very compatible with the coolant. Its heat and time thats taken to it. 7 years for an elastomer is pretty good.

The comment about the seal sitting flush with the housing is again, heat set, and expected.

Tombie The evidence is not adding up, to purchase this 2014 build LR I traded a 2005 Toyota Hilux and a 2009 Volvo XC60 T6 which I personally had maintained and serviced. Considerable parts had been replaced on both vehicles as preventive maintenance measures, at no time did either vehicle display evidence of oil and water seals deteriorating. Both vehicles did not leak a drop of oil or coolant during their years of use.

If this is normal situation for LR owners I am disappointed.[bighmmm]

[PerthDisco]

Tombie The evidence is not adding up, to purchase this 2014 build LR I traded a 2005 Toyota Hilux and a 2009 Volvo XC60 T6 which I personally had maintained and serviced. Considerable parts had been replaced on both vehicles as preventive maintenance measures, at no time did either vehicle display evidence of oil and water seals deteriorating. Both vehicles did not leak a drop of oil or coolant during their years of use.

If this is normal situation for LR owners I am disappointed.[bighmmm]

I’m pretty sure seals and orings are common tech across all makes. Car manufacturers don’t produce these as much as they don’t produce coolant and oils.

YouTube has plenty of destroyed engines in other makes from catastrophic and premature oil cooler failure but there is only some evidence after a very long life the Disco oil cooler starts to deteriorate but no evidence of one causing a complete failure.

You may have a bad one but generally these car are not known for leaks of any description with rare exceptions.

[scarry]

I’m pretty sure seals and orings are common tech across all makes. Car manufacturers don’t produce these as much as they don’t produce coolant and oils.

Seals,O rings,gaskets,etc, are made by numerous different manufacturers with numerous different qualities.

I go along with Gray's post anyday.

After 30yrs of running a fleet of jap vehicles and 20yrs of LR's,there is definitely a huge difference in the quality of seals,gaskets, and o rings.

Its pretty obvious some manufacturers use better quality products than others.

Even in our game,when rebuilding refrigeration compressers,we find a huge difference in seal,o ring and gasket qualities.

Just my 2 cents worth from actual experience.

[Tombie]

Some of the worlds best elastomer manufacturers are based on Italy and UK.

Those who understand sealing surface finishes and tolerances etc have LRs that don’t leak [emoji3]

Something isn’t right if a coolant has started decomposing an elastomer in an engine.

I’d say someone has mixed something in or used an additive outside of spec.