Can a Disco 4 tow a van with 350kg ball weight... I think not fit for purpose..

[tapda01]

Hi, I am a little frantic and would appreciate some validation of my calculations please.... I purchased a single axle off road van with ATM of 2,700 kgs and a ball weight of 270kgs. I calculate when sensibly loaded with full water tanks that the ball weight will increase to about 320 kgs. I also purchased a 2013 SDV6 Disco 4 to tow the van with, assuming (wrongly I now believe) that it had ample power and as it was rated as 3,500kgs max tow weight and 350 kgs max ball weight it would handle the van with ease. If only I had done the calculations fully beforehand....

The Disco 4 has a Tare stated in the handbook of 2,546kgs.
The tank takes 82 litres of diesel. 10 litres I understand are included in Tare so the remaining 72 add 60kgs giving kerb weight of 2,606
The manual states the CGM of 3,240 is only valid with a ball weight of 150kgs or less. For every kilogram of ball weight over the 150, the CGM decreases by 1 kg. This means that the CGM if towing a 3,500kg van with a ball weight of 350KG will reduce to 3,040kgs.
This gives us a legal payload of 3,040 minus the kerb weight of 2,606 minus the ball weight of 350 equalling 84kgs!!!! Â… the wife and kids will need to stay at home and I will need to go on a diet to legally drive the rig... So, are my calculations incorrect, have I misunderstood the manual or did Land Rover have brain fade? Â…. you can tow a big van Mr customer,but you have to do so by yourself ....not fit for purpose I suggest....

I think my calcs are correct, but I would love them to be wrong...

With the van I purchased, I can just about squeeze in my wife and an esky... it has to be empty.. all recovery gear moved into the van.... Do I replace the car or the van?

Thanks

David

[p38arover]

Go to YouTube and search for AutoExpert. John Cadogen has just posted a video explaining GVM, GCM, ball weight, payload, etc.

BTW, the reason you couldn't post in the D4 area is explained here: Can't post? Read this. (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ask-a-moderator/265448-cant-post-read.html)

[Graeme]

You subtracted the full 350kg ball weight instead of the excess over 150kg, being 200kg, so have another 200kg to play with.

I can' t be sure but thought that LR allowed for the driver and a full tank of fuel in the tare, unlike other manufacturers.

[ozscott]

I haven't had a coffee yet so I am not keen to go through your calculations yet but I can add this...10% ball weight is nice because in my experience of towing it means no tail wagging. However 10% isn't necessary for speeds limited to 100kph and in Europe they generally run at a lower percentage. As a general rule you can either load the van for lower nose weight or have the manufacturer shift the axles of the van if possible to redistribute weight.

Check this out
Towball Weight and Trailer Stability (https://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/driving-towing-towing/towball-weight-and-trailer-stability)

[DiscoMick]

Why do you calculate when the water tanks are loaded the ball weight will increase to 320kg? Does the caravan manufacturer say that?
Our camper trailer is different to your van of course, but filling our tank reduces, not increases, the ball weight. I have seen other caravans the same.
Might be worth checking.

[Graeme]

My van doesn't change ball weight with water tank filling as the tanks are centred over the axles, although once I split the tanks the ball weight will increase slightly as the primary rear empties while the front remains full.

[SeanC]

I don’t know about not being fit for purpose. A Landcruiser 200 series has a payload of 610kg vs 675kg for a D4. Dual-cab utes look like a good tow vehicle with their large payloads until you realise the they can’t tow their max weight when the vehicle is at GVM.

Take the current Toyota Hilux SR5 max towing capacity manual 3500kg, auto.3200kg.

If you add the D4’s payload of 675kgs to the Hilux the towing capacity drops to manual 3135kg and auto. 2935 kg. If you get the higher optioned Hiluxs the towing capacity is even less.

Where as for a D4 GVM (3240kg)+Max Towing Weight (3500kg)= GCM (6740kg)

You don’t need the full 350kg ball weight. Get a scale for measuring ball weight. Change the weight distributionto to reduce the ball weight. Take it for a drive. How does it handle? Keep going until you find the reduced ball weight is affecting the handling. So now you know the limit. Increase the ball weight until the handling is not being adversely and that is your optimal ball weight.

It’s a bit of work but you will get some of those “lost” payload kgs back.

[scarry]

And don't forget this,its in the D4 manual

" As long as you don’t exceed max axle weight, you can load up to 150kg on the towball without affecting payload"

[cripesamighty]

Also factor in your calculations that all Land Rover vehicle's "Tare weight" includes an allowance for a 90% fuel load and 75kg driver.

[Blknight.aus]

GCM doesnt change regardless of how you load it.

using simple numbers

if your vehicle has a GVM of 2000KG and a GCM of 3000 KG and can tow a 1500KG trailer. (not going to worry about what the ball limit is here)

if you have your vehicle at 1500KG you can then tow your 1500KG trailer

if you have the vehicle at 2000KG you can only tow a 1000KG trailer.


there are limits you need to worry about... the tow pack limit, the vehicle limit in certain conditions (landies generally have an on road no brakes, on road w brakes, off road w no brakes and off road w brakes limit)

lets assume the tow pack is good for 3500 KG and the ball limit is 500 KG. The vehicle weighs 1500KG at tare (which for most landies that I have the books on is full fuel, full provided tools + seats + accessories +75KG driver) from the factory.

you put on a 1500KG trailer with a 500KG ball load and go for a drive. the car is 1500 the trailer is 1500. you get pulled at the weigh bridge and....

the car weighs 2000Kg and the trailer axle weighs 1000. Theres a 500KG transfer to the car. all good.

lets do that with car loaded up to 2000KG and a 1000KG trailer so you're good for GCM BUT theres a 100KG transfer to the car... you get weighed.

your car weighs in at 2100KG and the trailer axle comes in at 900KG. Your now over your GVM but not your GCM.

and then you have axle loadings.....
'

[Fatso]

Tha manual for my RRS states unladen vehicle weight includes full fuel tank , and at GVM can have 150Kg Ball weight .

You should get better figures than you have worked out , not sure if there is much better on the road tha a disco other than a truck .

So , Your GVM mimus your Unladen weight should give a good figure to play with then minus the 170kg difference in your 320Kg ball load .

Look at how you load your van and remember the GCM ( Gross combination weight , dont think will have prob here ) and max rear axle weight .

[Blknight.aus]

most landies have a generous ball weight...

most landies have a 750KG payload.

did you know that it costs more to tax a 1t payload vehicle than a 750KG one (in the UK at least from what I'm told when the earlier landies were out)

so landrover made a 1 tonner, labeled it a 750KG and then let you have your tow ball weigh outside the payload.

same sort of thinking that came up with the commy knocker 6 piston 3 cylinder diesel, cause a 3 cylinder is cheaper than a 6...

[grey_ghost]

Not fit for purpose? One thinks that you should have asked the question and done your calculations before buying the vehicle and the van. Sorry but WTF?

[SeanC]

GCM doesnt change regardless of how you load it.
'

Yes GCM is always the same. But every kg over 150kg ball weight adds to the vehicle’s GVM therefore reducing the available payload for wife kids etc. Re-distributing the weight of the caravan does not change GCM but increases the available payload by reducing the tow ball weight. If tow ball weight is reduced from 350kg to 250kg that is an extra 100kg for the wife and kids which what the OP is concerned about.

Just to clarify. GVM + 3500kg = GCM is only true if ball weight is 150kg or below. Possible but not advisable.

[Arapiles]

Payload and tow ball weight aren't necessarily linked. The Euro caravans sold here, even the large ones, have very light tow ball weights - because the weight is centred around the axles and isn't over the draw bar. So increasing the weight in the van doesn't change the weight at 10%, which is what you appear to be presuming.

Edit: your numbers don't look right to me:

"Australia only: The nose weight must be a minimum of 7% of the gross caravan/trailer weight, up to a maximum of 250 kg. When using the detachable trailer hitch receiver, see FITTING THE DETACHABLE TRAILER HITCH RECEIVER (Australia only) (http://www.ownerinfo.landrover.com/document/LS/2016/T22693/18742_en_GBR/proc/G1841986), the nose weight can be increased to 350 kg if the GVW is reduced by 200 kg."

GVW is 3,240 kg. Take away 200kg = 3,040kg.

At that point you can have a ball weight of 350kg - which in Australia typically means a tow weight of 3,500kg.

The D4 weighs 2,589kg, so 3,040 - 2589 = 451kg. Even if you take away another 70kg for fuel you still have 350kg of payload. You don't have to subtract the ball weight from that, it's already accounted for.

The GTW/gross train weight is 6,740kg. Take away the weight of the D4 = 4,151kg left. Take away the caravan weight of say 3,000 kg = over a ton before you hit the GTW. Even at 3,500kg of caravan weight you'd still be 651kg short of the GTW. And if your caravan and what's in it is more than 3,500kg you're breaking the law in any case.

"Fit for purpose"? I'd suggest that it was. And that's before you take into account the torque, the fuel economy and the stability when towing that comes from the weight of the vehicle.

[Lukeis]

I have a large 22.68ft van which is dual axle

it has three 80L water tanks, one infront of the axles and two behind

All water tanks full:
van weight is 3060kg
Tow ball weight is 200kg (well below the 10% recommended)

front water tank full only
van weight is 2920kg
tow ball weight is 220kg

unless I plan on adding bricks on the A-frame it is impossible for me to get to the 10% rule - also during weighing the van was full except for clothes and fridge/food but most of this stuff is kept above or behind the axle anyway so it wouldn’t help.

It tows just fine so I don’t let it worry me.

[pop058]

Like many others I have been towing (upto) 3500kg trailers for most of my driving life and have never put so much TBW on my car. Typically 150 (max) has always worked for me even at freeway speeds (with someone else's race-car on my trailer). IIRC one of my Disco's (Series 1) has a TBW of 160 stamped on it.

Personally, I believe the 10 % rule (not law) was to try and "idiot proof" the towing process. My 0.02c anyway.

[Homestar]

If anyone really wants to have some fun, go post a thread like this on the Australian Caravanners Forum - it’s like a shark feeding frenzy... 😁😇

[dirvine]

a single axle with a weight of 2700 is right at its limit. (I actually thought a single axle could only be about 2.5t) I have a off road single axle van which weighs 2.5t and my D4 tows it with ease. I have no problem driving at speed limits and when overtaking road trains I have been able to get well over 160kph. I have never felt any problems towing and going up many hills I pass most (if not all) vehicles towing any type of van if they are not at the speed limit. It was one of the reasons I bought the d4. I have toyed with notion of a remap, but as yet have not done so. Recently I put the shunt on wiring so that the car recognized a van was attached. It has made an immediate impact in that I now get 1.5l p 100 kms better fuel economy. I dont understand that but it has lowered it from 15.8 down to 14.3, And that is driving on highways at the speed limit not at 90kph!

[pop058]

If anyone really wants to have some fun, go post a thread like this on the Australian Caravanners Forum - it’s like a shark feeding frenzy... 😁😇

Burly'd the water on a similar thread (bookface) a few months ago, was hours of fun. [thumbsupbig]

[DiscoMick]

I don't think you have a problem.

Top 10 towing vehicles (https://www.caravanworld.com.au/Reviews/4393/Top_10_towing_vehicles)

[Discodicky]

Hi, I am a little frantic and would appreciate some validation of my calculations please.... I purchased a single axle off road van with ATM of 2,700 kgs and a ball weight of 270kgs. I calculate when sensibly loaded with full water tanks that the ball weight will increase to about 320 kgs. I also purchased a 2013 SDV6 Disco 4 to tow the van with, assuming (wrongly I now believe) that it had ample power and as it was rated as 3,500kgs max tow weight and 350 kgs max ball weight it would handle the van with ease. If only I had done the calculations fully beforehand....

The Disco 4 has a Tare stated in the handbook of 2,546kgs.
The tank takes 82 litres of diesel. 10 litres I understand are included in Tare so the remaining 72 add 60kgs giving kerb weight of 2,606
The manual states the CGM of 3,240 is only valid with a ball weight of 150kgs or less. For every kilogram of ball weight over the 150, the CGM decreases by 1 kg. This means that the CGM if towing a 3,500kg van with a ball weight of 350KG will reduce to 3,040kgs.
This gives us a legal payload of 3,040 minus the kerb weight of 2,606 minus the ball weight of 350 equalling 84kgs!!!! Â… the wife and kids will need to stay at home and I will need to go on a diet to legally drive the rig... So, are my calculations incorrect, have I misunderstood the manual or did Land Rover have brain fade? Â…. you can tow a big van Mr customer,but you have to do so by yourself ....not fit for purpose I suggest....

I think my calcs are correct, but I would love them to be wrong...



With the van I purchased, I can just about squeeze in my wife and an esky... it has to be empty.. all recovery gear moved into the van.... Do I replace the car or the van?

Thanks

David

You are maybe reading the section in the Owners manual which applies to English vehicles. There is an Australian Supplement advising 350kg is max towball weight. Be sure not to get your GCM mixed up in your calcs as it has nothing to do with towball weight. I am towing a 2.9T van with 310 kg towball weight and definitely legal and tows beautifully. In many cases, adding X kilos of water doesn't necessarily mean it all goes onto the towball. In my case it does not. F
illing my front 90 litre tank (90 kg) does not add 90 kg to my towball weight.

[DiscoMick]

If the tank were behind the axle filling it could reduce the towball weight.

[DiscoMick]

Also, a full tank of fuel and 75kg for the driver are already included, others have stated.

[pop058]

Also, a full tank of fuel and 75kg for the driver are already included, others have stated.

In reality, how many drivers are 75kg ???

[PerthDisco]

In reality, how many drivers are 75kg ???

The mythical international human. Same formula airlines and ships use for passenger weight.

[tapda01]

You are maybe reading the section in the Owners manual which applies to English vehicles. There is an Australian Supplement advising 350kg is max towball weight. Be sure not to get your GCM mixed up in your calcs as it has nothing to do with towball weight. I am towing a 2.9T van with 310 kg towball weight and definitely legal and tows beautifully. In many cases, adding X kilos of water doesn't necessarily mean it all goes onto the towball. In my case it does not. F
illing my front 90 litre tank (90 kg) does not add 90 kg to my towball weight.

Hi Fossiker, I am quoting the Australian specs and they clearly say that if your towball weight is greater than 150kgs then the GVM reduces by 1kg for every 1 kg of towball weight over 150kgs. I have no doubt your van tows beautifully, but if you are in a D4 then your payload will be GCM (3,240 - 160 = 3,080) minus Kerb weight (Tare 2,546 + Fuel 60 = 2,606) minus TBM (310) giving 164kgs.... this assumes you have added no extras like bull bars, roof rack, aux batteries etc etc.... enough for 2 people and an esky....

My van is single axle off road and both water tanks are in front of axle. I have calculated the moment of all extras in the van (weight x distance from axle) to establish the new ball weight...

I have reviewed most of the replies hoping for a different outcome, but no one has come up with any positive evidence yet. I am quoting page 71 in D4 owners manual where it specifies the towing weights. The general description could be clearer, but to quote it :

FITTING THE DETACHABLE DRAWBAR RECEIVER (Australia only), the nose weight can be increased to 350kg (772 lb) if the GVW is reduced by 200 kg (441 lb).

GVW is the Gross Vehicle Weight, which we refer to as GVM here..

Some people are suggesting that the Tare weight includes driver and 90% full tank. I would love this to be true, but I can find no evidence that UK define it this way. As a rule, the tare includes 10l of fuel to get to weighbridge. The kerbside weight is Tare plus full tank of fuel... I can find no documentation including driver... how could one... I weigh 88kgs and you may weigh 108kg.... meaningless..

Hence my comment about fit for purpose.... there is a lot of press about this at the moment, and I, like I suspect many land rover owners, thought that our vehicles were not effected by the over stating of weights.... sadly we are in no better a position than the average double cab ute.... actually, some are in a better position because their Tare is generally lower....

Appreciate your help and happy to be corrected on any point...

Cheers

david

[tapda01]

Why do you calculate when the water tanks are loaded the ball weight will increase to 320kg? Does the caravan manufacturer say that?
Our camper trailer is different to your van of course, but filling our tank reduces, not increases, the ball weight. I have seen other caravans the same.
Might be worth checking.
Thanks Mick... I wish I was in the same position... both my tanks and most of the storage is forward of the axle. I have calculated the moment of all extras in the van (weight x distance from axle) to establish the new ball weight... I am going to have to move a tank behind the axle to bring the ball weight back to something reasonable...

Cheers

David

[tapda01]

You subtracted the full 350kg ball weight instead of the excess over 150kg, being 200kg, so have another 200kg to play with.

I can' t be sure but thought that LR allowed for the driver and a full tank of fuel in the tare, unlike other manufacturers.

Hi Graeme, I wish I could accept what you say, but you are assuming, like many in my research, that 150kg of ball weight is already included in the GVM. This is just not the case. GVM is GVM. Page 71 of D4 manual is clear:

FITTING THE DETACHABLE DRAWBAR RECEIVER(Australia only), the nose weight can be increased to 350kg (772 lb) if the GVWis reduced by 200 kg (441 lb).

When I place a 350kg ball on the D4, the GVM is reduced by 350kg...

Some people aresuggesting that the Tare weight includes driver and 90% full tank. I would lovethis to be true, but I can find no evidence that UK define it this way. As a rule, the tare includes 10l of fuel to get to weighbridge. The kerbsideweight is Tare plus full tank of fuel... I can find no documentation includingdriver... how could one... I weigh 88kgs and you may weigh 108kg....

Thanks for your input... I am getting many opinions from forum members but I am looking for hard evidence that my calculations are incorrect... when flagged down by men in blue and weighed, I want to know I am legal...

Cheers

David

[tapda01]

Also factor in your calculations that all Land Rover vehicle's "Tare weight" includes an allowance for a 90% fuel load and 75kg driver.

That may be kerbside weight, but I am not convinced... do you documentary evidence of this please? These weights are too important in all countries to slot in an arbitary weight for a driver...

Cheers

David

[Eevo]

Tow ball weight is 200kg (well below the 10% recommended)



lighter isnt better from a stability point of view.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mW_gzdh6to

[tapda01]

Hi, I am a little frantic and would appreciate some validation of my calculations please.... I purchased a single axle off road van with ATM of 2,700 kgs and a ball weight of 270kgs. I calculate when sensibly loaded with full water tanks that the ball weight will increase to about 320 kgs. I also purchased a 2013 SDV6 Disco 4 to tow the van with, assuming (wrongly I now believe) that it had ample power and as it was rated as 3,500kgs max tow weight and 350 kgs max ball weight it would handle the van with ease. If only I had done the calculations fully beforehand....

The Disco 4 has a Tare stated in the handbook of 2,546kgs.
The tank takes 82 litres of diesel. 10 litres I understand are included in Tare so the remaining 72 add 60kgs giving kerb weight of 2,606
The manual states the CGM of 3,240 is only valid with a ball weight of 150kgs or less. For every kilogram of ball weight over the 150, the CGM decreases by 1 kg. This means that the CGM if towing a 3,500kg van with a ball weight of 350KG will reduce to 3,040kgs.
This gives us a legal payload of 3,040 minus the kerb weight of 2,606 minus the ball weight of 350 equalling 84kgs!!!! Â… the wife and kids will need to stay at home and I will need to go on a diet to legally drive the rig... So, are my calculations incorrect, have I misunderstood the manual or did Land Rover have brain fade? Â…. you can tow a big van Mr customer,but you have to do so by yourself ....not fit for purpose I suggest....

I think my calcs are correct, but I would love them to be wrong...

With the van I purchased, I can just about squeeze in my wife and an esky... it has to be empty.. all recovery gear moved into the van.... Do I replace the car or the van?

Thanks

David

My apologies to all …. I have referred to GVM incorrectly as GCM in my original post... tardy of me... I see many have seen my error but others have replied based on GCM... too many acronyms!!!

Cheers

David

[pop058]

lighter isnt better from a stability point of view.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mW_gzdh6to

And too heavy is not good either. It is a Goldilocks thing.

[Eevo]

And too heavy is not good either. It is a Goldilocks thing.

yep, 10% is just right.

[pop058]

yep, 10% is just right.

Not always IMHO

[Eevo]

Not always IMHO

true, but the posted i quoted, made it sound like less was better, which it generally isnt.

IMHO, for stability, its better to be too heavy than too light on the towball.

[kelvo]

The GVM, not Tare, includes all fluids, 90% fuel and 75Kg driver as per the Discovery 4 sales book.

[tapda01]

I don't think you have a problem.

Top 10 towing vehicles (https://www.caravanworld.com.au/Reviews/4393/Top_10_towing_vehicles)

Mick, we all have the same problem...

3.5-tonne tow ratings: Busting the great 3500kg myths | CarsGuide (https://www.carsguide.com.au/tradies/advice/35-tonne-tow-ratings-busting-the-great-3500kg-myths-73141)

[tapda01]

Payload and tow ball weight aren't necessarily linked. The Euro caravans sold here, even the large ones, have very light tow ball weights - because the weight is centred around the axles and isn't over the draw bar. So increasing the weight in the van doesn't change the weight at 10%, which is what you appear to be presuming.

Edit: your numbers don't look right to me:

"Australia only: The nose weight must be a minimum of 7% of the gross caravan/trailer weight, up to a maximum of 250 kg. When using the detachable trailer hitch receiver, see FITTING THE DETACHABLE TRAILER HITCH RECEIVER (Australia only) (http://www.ownerinfo.landrover.com/document/LS/2016/T22693/18742_en_GBR/proc/G1841986), the nose weight can be increased to 350 kg if the GVW is reduced by 200 kg."

GVW is 3,240 kg. Take away 200kg = 3,040kg.

At that point you can have a ball weight of 350kg - which in Australia typically means a tow weight of 3,500kg.

The D4 weighs 2,589kg, so 3,040 - 2589 = 451kg. Even if you take away another 70kg for fuel you still have 350kg of payload. You don't have to subtract the ball weight from that, it's already accounted for.

The GTW/gross train weight is 6,740kg. Take away the weight of the D4 = 4,151kg left. Take away the caravan weight of say 3,000 kg = over a ton before you hit the GTW. Even at 3,500kg of caravan weight you'd still be 651kg short of the GTW. And if your caravan and what's in it is more than 3,500kg you're breaking the law in any case.

"Fit for purpose"? I'd suggest that it was. And that's before you take into account the torque, the fuel economy and the stability when towing that comes from the weight of the vehicle.



Hi Arapiles, I was with you all the way until you said you don't subtract the ball weight. The second you connect that ball hitch to the D4 you have eaten into your GVM which you have correctly calculated as the reduced 3,040kgs.. the link below defines everything...

Vehicle weights explained | tare, kerb, GVM, payload and trailer figures | CarsGuide (https://www.carsguide.com.au/tradies/advice/vehicle-weights-explained-tare-kerb-gvm-payload-and-trailer-figures-73041)

In your example you need a driverless car if you connect a van with 350kg ball weight... hence my fit for purpose comment... I love my disco and it tows large vans like a dream with great economy... but I am now of the opinion that well over 50% of all rigs are not legal and feel car manufacturers need to come to the party and stop making these capacity claims that are not realistic and misleading....


Cheers

David

[Arapiles]

Hi Arapiles, I was with you all the way until you said you don't subtract the ball weight. The second you connect that ball hitch to the D4 you have eaten into your GVM which you have correctly calculated as the reduced 3,040kgs.. the link below defines everything...

Vehicle weights explained | tare, kerb, GVM, payload and trailer figures | CarsGuide (https://www.carsguide.com.au/tradies/advice/vehicle-weights-explained-tare-kerb-gvm-payload-and-trailer-figures-73041)

In your example you need a driverless car if you connect a van with 350kg ball weight... hence my fit for purpose comment... I love my disco and it tows large vans like a dream with great economy... but I am now of the opinion that well over 50% of all rigs are not legal and feel car manufacturers need to come to the party and stop making these capacity claims that are not realistic and misleading....


Cheers

David

Hmmm ... OK. It is well known that most of the twin cab Utes, and LC200s as an example, are outside their load limits once you add bullbars etc. One of the reasons the MU-X is popular is that its numbers do match its claims.

Edit:


you can take the 350kg off the weight of the van, if you're taking it from the car's payload;
if your ball weight isn't 350kg - and it's not established that it will be - then that is where you have some leeway.

[rocket rod]

Have you put your concerns to Land Rover Australia?

[cripesamighty]

I took the link below from the Land Rover website. Point number 1 in the fine print at the bottom of the page says Unladen weight includes a 75kg driver, full fluids and 90% fuel.
I'm assuming of course that Unladen weight is equivalent to the Tare weight! Happy to stand corrected though as these things have a habit of meaning different things in different markets at different times.

Discovery - Off Road SUV Specifications - Land Rover (https://www.landrover.com/vehicles/discovery/specifications.html)




That may be kerbside weight, but I am not convinced... do you documentary evidence of this please? These weights are too important in all countries to slot in an arbitary weight for a driver...

Cheers

David

[Pedro_The_Swift]

lighter isnt better from a stability point of view.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mW_gzdh6to

total bull**** Evo,, nothing is built to those dimensions,, towball to axle = X,, behind axle to end of van = X ..

its just a sales gimmick..

[Eevo]

total bull**** Evo,, nothing is built to those dimensions,, towball to axle = X,, behind axle to end of van = X ..

its just a sales gimmick..

you sure convinced me.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

dont care Evo,,

all I know is I saw this contraption at least 30 years ago at some camping show in Brizzy,,
and they were flogging swaybars,,

the 10% thing is an urban legend,, NO scientific testing has EVER been done to prove it,, ( dont show me the Bath tests, its conclusion makes no sense) but literally millions of Europeans disprove it every day..

Build it and they will come---

max weight vans with a 350kg tow ball weight?,, sure, my engineers will plate our biggest most expensive car to that level,, did they build a bigger better car to tow that van? no,, just plated one that was already built..


I bet the new owners of a 380Nm Isuzu got a shock when they hitched up a 3.5T van... [bigrolf]

[DiscoMick]

Mick, we all have the same problem...

3.5-tonne tow ratings: Busting the great 3500kg myths | CarsGuide (https://www.carsguide.com.au/tradies/advice/35-tonne-tow-ratings-busting-the-great-3500kg-myths-73141)In that link the Discovery has a payload of 824kg, which is excellent.

[DiscoMick]

I also notice it said towball of 10-15% of the caravan.

[Disco-tastic]

...
The manual states the CGM of 3,240 is only valid with a ball weight of 150kgs or less. For every kilogram of ball weight over the 150, the CGM decreases by 1 kg. This means that the CGM if towing a 3,500kg van with a ball weight of 350KG will reduce to 3,040kgs.
This gives us a legal payload of 3,040 minus the kerb weight of 2,606 minus the ball weight of 350 equalling 84kgs!!!!

Hi David, just noting in your first post that youve subtracted an extra 350kg from your payload. Your reduced GVM of 3040kg already accounts for the 350kg ball weight.

You will need to check the rear axle weight is not above the limit.

Cheers

Dan

[DiscoMick]

That's what I understood - 3500kg and 350kg towball weight. But this stuff confuses me no end, so I waited to see what others said.

[roverrescue]

Assuming this is the wording in the book


"Australia only: The nose weight must be a minimum of 7% of the gross caravan/trailer weight, up to a maximum of 250 kg. When using the detachable trailer hitch receiver, see FITTING THE DETACHABLE TRAILER HITCH RECEIVER (Australia only), the nose weight can be increased to 350 kg if the GVW is reduced by 200 kg."


Now I’m not a lawyer but those that are working under the premise that reducing GVW by 200kg “includes” the whole 350kg are dreaming.

GVW - loaded to the gills equals X
GVW - with trailer at 250kg ball weight equals x
GVW - with trailer at 350kg ball weight equals x-200kg


So you have your GVW which is a stipulated mass
Now you need to actually measure **** - calculations are estimates, scalies don’t estimate they measure

So whack-a-do the big arse trailer on with 300kg ball weight, have vehicle on four wheel scales
The sum of the four scales (with trailer attached) MUST be less than x-200kg

As said axle loads must also be in spec.
It’s simple. Nothing is included in changing the GVW or is just a hard limit once ball weight >250kg.

It’s the same as nothing is included such as driver/ fuel whatever in GVW
That’s a hard limit measured by scales under the wheels

Sure those figures are important for “estimating” payload but the only sure fireway to measure payload is to measure your Tare with whatever you deem as “not luggage”

Just like caravan Tares are somewhat rubbery vehicle manufacturer stated tares are rubbery

What matters is the final mass on each tyre - not what you think it should be.

Anyways

Steve

[Aussie Jeepster]

Wow, just think.
Some of us just want to hook the van on the back and drive off into the wilderness.
It has become so unbelievably complicated to do just that!!!
Alan

[weeds]

Wow, just think.
Some of us just want to hook the van on the back and drive off into the wilderness.
It has become so unbelievably complicated to do just that!!!
Alan

Nah....load up and head off is all I’ve done, although have always had actual weigh bridge weights even when slightly overloaded still selected 1st and rolled off the weigh bridge headed towards first destination. I no longer tow and I still get axle weights.

Wouldn’t surprise me if the number that towing are involved in less accidents when compared to those not towing.

[SeanC]

Say F250 three times and all your problems magically disappear.[bigwhistle]

[ATH]

Wow, just think.
Some of us just want to hook the van on the back and drive off into the wilderness.
It has become so unbelievably complicated to do just that!!!
Alan
That's exactly what we do Alan, but then we're not towing some monstrous ego boosting thing behind us. Just a small off roader we can get into many places with and avoid van parks.
The Cook reckons it's just dragging housework behind us and no way is she having that. As she's the boss around the place who does the cooking or most of it anyway, and all I want is somewhere to sleep and eat if it's wet, I agree with her. For once. :)
AlanH.

[Blknight.aus]

Hi Arapiles, I was with you all the way until you said you don't subtract the ball weight. The second you connect that ball hitch to the D4 you have eaten into your GVM which you have correctly calculated as the reduced 3,040kgs.. the link below defines everything...

Vehicle weights explained | tare, kerb, GVM, payload and trailer figures | CarsGuide (https://www.carsguide.com.au/tradies/advice/vehicle-weights-explained-tare-kerb-gvm-payload-and-trailer-figures-73041)

In your example you need a driverless car if you connect a van with 350kg ball weight... hence my fit for purpose comment... I love my disco and it tows large vans like a dream with great economy... but I am now of the opinion that well over 50% of all rigs are not legal and feel car manufacturers need to come to the party and stop making these capacity claims that are not realistic and misleading....


Cheers

David

not so.



you have only eaten into you weight IF you take it to 350KG.

if your ball weight is 150KG you dont have to worry about a thing because the D4 includes 150Kg ball weight in the GVM... if you want to have a ball weight OVER 150KG on the detachable hitch THEN you have to start taking weight out of the NET load of the vehicle not the GVM

so (using easy made up numbers) the GVM of the vehicle is 2000KG of which 500KG is NET payload. I can now still have a 150KG ball load.

IF I want to put 200Kg on the ball.

I have 2000Kg GVM of which 450KG can be net load and then have my 200KG ball load.

[SeanC]

That's exactly what we do Alan, but then we're not towing some monstrous ego boosting thing behind us. Just a small off roader we can get into many places with and avoid van parks.
The Cook reckons it's just dragging housework behind us and no way is she having that. As she's the boss around the place who does the cooking or most of it anyway, and all I want is somewhere to sleep and eat if it's wet, I agree with her. For once. :)
AlanH.
1987 Aussie Swag Off-road. Light as a feather. Goes anywhere. GCM?? what’s GCM???

[tapda01]

Have you put your concerns to Land Rover Australia?

Hi Rod, yes, I have sent them an email seeking clarification. They came back to me promptly asking for my VIN details. I await their further reply.

In the interim, I took my pretty much standard D4 with no accessories apart from brake controller and anderson plugs with a tank full of diesel to a weigh bridge.
It weighed 2,620kgs.
80 litres of Diesel weighs 67kgs meaning the tare is 2,553kgs. This is close enough to the stated tare of 2,568kgs for the SDV6 Diesel to I think dispel the theory put forward by many that weight includes 75kg for the driver.....

Cheers

David

[tapda01]

total bull**** Evo,, nothing is built to those dimensions,, towball to axle = X,, behind axle to end of van = X ..

its just a sales gimmick..

Hi, I found this article quite interesting.. there does seem to be some reputable science behind it all with optimum being 6-8% of trailers gross mass...

Towball Weight and Trailer Stability (https://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/driving-towing-towing/towball-weight-and-trailer-stability)

Cheers

David

[tapda01]

Assuming this is the wording in the book


"Australia only: The nose weight must be a minimum of 7% of the gross caravan/trailer weight, up to a maximum of 250 kg. When using the detachable trailer hitch receiver, see FITTING THE DETACHABLE TRAILER HITCH RECEIVER (Australia only), the nose weight can be increased to 350 kg if the GVW is reduced by 200 kg."


Now I’m not a lawyer but those that are working under the premise that reducing GVW by 200kg “includes” the whole 350kg are dreaming.

GVW - loaded to the gills equals X
GVW - with trailer at 250kg ball weight equals x
GVW - with trailer at 350kg ball weight equals x-200kg


So you have your GVW which is a stipulated mass
Now you need to actually measure **** - calculations are estimates, scalies don’t estimate they measure

So whack-a-do the big arse trailer on with 300kg ball weight, have vehicle on four wheel scales
The sum of the four scales (with trailer attached) MUST be less than x-200kg

As said axle loads must also be in spec.
It’s simple. Nothing is included in changing the GVW or is just a hard limit once ball weight >250kg.

It’s the same as nothing is included such as driver/ fuel whatever in GVW
That’s a hard limit measured by scales under the wheels

Sure those figures are important for “estimating” payload but the only sure fireway to measure payload is to measure your Tare with whatever you deem as “not luggage”

Just like caravan Tares are somewhat rubbery vehicle manufacturer stated tares are rubbery

What matters is the final mass on each tyre - not what you think it should be.

Anyways

Steve

Thanks Steve, I agree with you 100%, to which end I took D4 to weighbridge to get actual figures today as my starting point.

Cheers

David

[tapda01]

Wow, just think.
Some of us just want to hook the van on the back and drive off into the wilderness.
It has become so unbelievably complicated to do just that!!!
Alan

Hi Alan, its not actually very complicated and the Math is simple. My guess is that any 4x4 with the usual off road accessories trying to tow a mid sized caravan or bigger with family on board is probably exceeding their Gross Vehicle Weight. I think this will push us towards the lighter European vans in the future so that one can once again just hook the van on the back as you suggest. I was hoping to do just that but after the event did my due diligence.... and my impression is that I am not alone....

Cheers

David

[tapda01]

That's exactly what we do Alan, but then we're not towing some monstrous ego boosting thing behind us. Just a small off roader we can get into many places with and avoid van parks.
The Cook reckons it's just dragging housework behind us and no way is she having that. As she's the boss around the place who does the cooking or most of it anyway, and all I want is somewhere to sleep and eat if it's wet, I agree with her. For once. :)
AlanH.
Good on you Alan, but each to their own

Cheers

David

[tapda01]

not so.



you have only eaten into you weight IF you take it to 350KG.

if your ball weight is 150KG you dont have to worry about a thing because the D4 includes 150Kg ball weight in the GVM... if you want to have a ball weight OVER 150KG on the detachable hitch THEN you have to start taking weight out of the NET load of the vehicle not the GVM

so (using easy made up numbers) the GVM of the vehicle is 2000KG of which 500KG is NET payload. I can now still have a 150KG ball load.

IF I want to put 200Kg on the ball.

I have 2000Kg GVM of which 450KG can be net load and then have my 200KG ball load.

Dave I appreciate your input, but you must have missed the GVM definition..

Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM)
The maximum weight indicated by the manufacturer that all the wheels in the tow vehicle can support. It includes the weights of the car, the passengers, and other things loaded in the car. When the vehicle is attached to a trailer, it includes the tow ball mass.

Sorry, but there is no allowance of any tow ball mass in Land Rover or any manufacturers GVM figures... its all wishful thinking.... If you load your D4 with people and accessories up to GVM, you will not legally be able to tow anything... even a trailer with a 10kg tow ball mass will take you over from a legal perspective..

Cheers

David

[tapda01]

Hi David, just noting in your first post that youve subtracted an extra 350kg from your payload. Your reduced GVM of 3040kg already accounts for the 350kg ball weight.

You will need to check the rear axle weight is not above the limit.

Cheers

Dan

Thanks Dan, but I am even more certain now that my calculations are correct.. no manufacturer includes any tow ball weight in their stated GVM. If you add a trailer with ball weight of 350kgs then you have eaten into that GVM by 350kgs, thereby reducing the available payload for passengers and equipment... I think the reason Land rover reduce the GVM for large ball weights is to protect the rear axle and suspension...

Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM)
The maximum weight indicated by the manufacturer that all the wheels in the tow vehicle can support. It includes the weights of the car, the passengers, and other things loaded in the car. When the vehicle is attached to a trailer, it includes the tow ball mass. Cheers

David

[Blknight.aus]

Dave I appreciate your input, but you must have missed the GVM definition..[/SIZE]

[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]

Really specifically I didn't in no short part because my drivers license says HC and not C (auto) or C (int)

Also really certain I can read a manual and follow the guidelines as well as the maths, the ADR's the Roadrules the NHVL regulations and any other number of things that might be really useful for a Truck driving crane operating Plant/Truck mechanic Ex ADF driving instructor to know.

Just to put it in perspective...

You want to use a vehicle thats 3 generations ahead of and 20 years newer than the vehicle I would use to tow bigger things legally and even newer than the vehicle that I would (and have) use willingly to do the same thing. you have more HP, more Torque, better everything comfort wise and more electronics on board than the space shuttle.

you screwed up GCM and GVM in the opening post and even after most of the people here trying to help you out and point you in the right direction Dont want to accept the vehicle is the definition of a near perfect tow motor because you want to argue semantics based around the simplicity of youve screwed your maths from the get go in the same way as the "I can prove I have 11 fingers" trick works, just backwards.

you do you.

you know If I was a betting man... I'd almost bet that part of your total weight includes a generator.

[Blknight.aus]

just to assure you..

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DsK0SH0h9s)

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlUx7M37kOE)

nahh, not a chance could it tow your van completely useless for towing. Give it to me, go buy a toyota.

[weeds]

Thanks Steve, I agree with you 100%, to which end I took D4 to weighbridge to get actual figures today as my starting point.

Cheers

David

Weigh bridge weights is the only way to go.....good start

I lot of good info in this thread, take some time and read....

Was your D4 in touring mode when you went over the bridge??

Might be helpful to start posting your weight each time you go over the weigh bridge......

The whole included tow ball weight in GVM has come up before...the way I read it is they assume your towing with 150tow ball weight.

I normally focus on the following weights in this order

Drive onto weight bridge with caravan in tow with everything you normally take including food.

Grab front axle weight as you driving on

Stop when just the car is on the bridge and note car weight with trailer connected, this will give you car weight including tow ball

Drop jockey wheel and take weight off tow ball, now you just have car weight, take this away from the weight above and you have towball weight

Drop hitch back onto ball and roll forward, note total weight of combination.

Drive forward and weight trailer only....to confirm above numbers.

The only real way is taking time on a weigh bridge.

Post all these up, pretty sure there is a weigh in thread, most wouldn’t lost as they are over. Easy for me as we have a weigh bridge at work.

On previous trips
Defender, I only ever exceeded front axle weight
Hi-lux, regularly exceeded rear axle and GVM

Yeah before everybody jumps on the band wagon at least I knew my weights, 90% of those on the road prefer not to know.

Off to sit in on COR Training, doubt we will be talking caravans....but you never know.

[DiscoMick]

I'm NOT an expert at this, and my Defender is way under the limits when towing our camper, and I don't own a D4, so tell me if this is wrong, but the way I read the D4 information was:
It includes a 75kg driver and fuel
It includes 150kg towball weight
That can be increased to 350kg, but the amount above 150 has to be taken off the vehicle
Is that correct?
I also think in one of the links above it said the D4 was better for towing than everything except a Troopy.

[Geedublya]

Reading my D4 (2010) manual you can increase GVW by 100kg when towing if speed does not exceed 100km/h.

"Note: When towing, the maximum permissible
Gross Vehicle Weight can be increased by a
maximum of 100 kg (220 lbs) provided that the
road speed is limited to 100 km/h (60 mph)."

[Aussie Jeepster]

We bought a small 2T New Age single axle van, and having done the weights of the D3 and the van, we would have to be carrying a pile of Bessa bricks in one or either to exceed the weights.
I just find it interesting that 40 years ago, you could hook up a twin axle Millard van on the back of of the Kingswood and drive around Australia.
I know all this safety stuff is important but I sometimes wonder how we managed to survive in the 60's and 70's to get to where we are now.
Sorry for the thread drift.


Hi Alan, its not actually very complicated and the Math is simple. My guess is that any 4x4 with the usual off road accessories trying to tow a mid sized caravan or bigger with family on board is probably exceeding their Gross Vehicle Weight. I think this will push us towards the lighter European vans in the future so that one can once again just hook the van on the back as you suggest. I was hoping to do just that but after the event did my due diligence.... and my impression is that I am not alone....

Cheers

David

[Fatso]

I just find it interesting that 40 years ago, you could hook up a twin axle Millard van on the back of of the Kingswood and drive around Australia.
I know all this safety stuff is important but I sometimes wonder how we managed to survive in the 60's and 70's to get to where we are now.
Sorry for the thread drift.[/QUOTE]

Ha Ha , back in the 60s 70s you could load a Kingswood until its arse was nearly dragging on the ground and the old caravans were not all that heavy , that and the fact people did not drive like they were all late for brain surgery made for a much more pleasurable and safe trip .

[Odysseyman]

I’ve been reading this thread with interest. I think your issue is with your van, not your tow vehicle. Before retiring my wife worked in a well known caravan repair business and her comment was that it was rare to see any van with a 350kg ball weight, or anything near it. Most tow hitches have a maximum towball weight considerably less than that.
I would suggest that you pay close attention to the way the van is loaded, starting first with getting weighing your van empty and comparing that weight with the Gross Trailer Mass on your van compliance plate. That will tell you what weight you can add to the van in the way of water, food, clothing and other random stuff you want to take. Then when you load the van keep those things you load central and low. Never put anything at the rear of the van to rear of the van to reduce your towball weight as you could end up with a very unstable situation, as described in that YouTube video referred to earlier with that little model car and trailer.
The other thing you will need to watch is your rear axle load on the Disco as 350kg on the towball coverts to 350+kg on the back axle. I posted the calculation earlier in this thread. (Sorry my car is in for service today so I can’t measure the distance from the centre of the back wheels to the towball to do the calculation).
Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) is what it says it is, the absolute maximum weight the car can be, regardless of where you put the weight, and the Gross Combination Mass (GCM) likewise.
From what you have already said in a number of your responses you clearly understand this...
so best to go to a weighbridge, get the figures and keep it simple.
The Disco is an eminently capable tow vehicle but only up to the weight limits set by Land Rover. If your van exceeds those weights then I reckon you need to rethink your tow vehicle. Doesn’t mean the car is not “fit for service”.
cheers,
David

[tapda01]

Really specifically I didn't in no short part because my drivers license says HC and not C (auto) or C (int)

Also really certain I can read a manual and follow the guidelines as well as the maths, the ADR's the Roadrules the NHVL regulations and any other number of things that might be really useful for a Truck driving crane operating Plant/Truck mechanic Ex ADF driving instructor to know.

Just to put it in perspective...

You want to use a vehicle thats 3 generations ahead of and 20 years newer than the vehicle I would use to tow bigger things legally and even newer than the vehicle that I would (and have) use willingly to do the same thing. you have more HP, more Torque, better everything comfort wise and more electronics on board than the space shuttle.

you screwed up GCM and GVM in the opening post and even after most of the people here trying to help you out and point you in the right direction Dont want to accept the vehicle is the definition of a near perfect tow motor because you want to argue semantics based around the simplicity of youve screwed your maths from the get go in the same way as the "I can prove I have 11 fingers" trick works, just backwards.

you do you.

you know If I was a betting man... I'd almost bet that part of your total weight includes a generator.

Your reply doesn't really warrant a response from me....I will bite my tongue and just summarise that the main point of divergence is that people are interpreting Land Rover and Industry standard figures in different ways. I think my interpretation is correct, but understand others have different interpretations. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I have contacted Land Rover and asked them for their official position. Whatever they provide I will post so it will be to everyone's benefit.

[weeds]

I don’t think you need Land rovers response....as it’s all in your handbook, tare is not overly important and the included towball is just there to confuse the number.

Keep under the below and all is good.....

GVM 3240, you mentioned 320kg tow ball therefore 2920 is the number you’re chasing without the van connected ...with a 2600 tare than you have 300 payload.

Max. Tow ball 350 which you’re under

GCM.....couldn’t see a reference

ATM 2700, can be difficult to achieve with some manufacturers.

[tapda01]

I’ve been reading this thread with interest. I think your issue is with your van, not your tow vehicle. Before retiring my wife worked in a well known caravan repair business and her comment was that it was rare to see any van with a 350kg ball weight, or anything near it. Most tow hitches have a maximum towball weight considerably less than that.
I would suggest that you pay close attention to the way the van is loaded, starting first with getting weighing your van empty and comparing that weight with the Gross Trailer Mass on your van compliance plate. That will tell you what weight you can add to the van in the way of water, food, clothing and other random stuff you want to take. Then when you load the van keep those things you load central and low. Never put anything at the rear of the van to rear of the van to reduce your towball weight as you could end up with a very unstable situation, as described in that YouTube video referred to earlier with that little model car and trailer.
The other thing you will need to watch is your rear axle load on the Disco as 350kg on the towball coverts to 350+kg on the back axle. I posted the calculation earlier in this thread. (Sorry my car is in for service today so I can’t measure the distance from the centre of the back wheels to the towball to do the calculation).
Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) is what it says it is, the absolute maximum weight the car can be, regardless of where you put the weight, and the Gross Combination Mass (GCM) likewise.
From what you have already said in a number of your responses you clearly understand this...
so best to go to a weighbridge, get the figures and keep it simple.
The Disco is an eminently capable tow vehicle but only up to the weight limits set by Land Rover. If your van exceeds those weights then I reckon you need to rethink your tow vehicle. Doesn’t mean the car is not “fit for service”.
cheers,
David

Thanks David, I agree that the van is the main issue and am in conversations with the manufacturer to adjust things to reduce TBM. The Disco is a wonderful tow vehicle, but my fit for service issue is that how can Land Rover with a clear conscious specify it can handle a TBM of 350kgs when that just leaves a legal payload of 70kgs at best. The fine print about reducing GCM is in the owners manual which most will not read until the car is purchased. They should make it clear up front that any tow ball mass over 150kgs will reduce GCM and hence eventual payload. I have not seen this wording in any of the specs downloaded from their web site, but happy to stand corrected...

Cheers

David

[justinc]

The disco is not in the same league as the lc100/200 for non disclosure regarding towing weights. The LR is by far a better prospect, and still a top performing tow vehicle. Just be sure to think about weights. There are NO vehicles on the market that have a load it up she'll be right outlook. After all the vehicles I've towed with over the years, my current one (same specs weights etc wise literally as a D4) is the best.

[SeanC]

just to assure you..

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DsK0SH0h9s)

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlUx7M37kOE)

nahh, not a chance could it tow your van completely useless for towing. Give it to me, go buy a toyota.
They only show the easy bit. I wanted to see the Disco stop it. Now that would have been something.

[tapda01]

I'm NOT an expert at this, and my Defender is way under the limits when towing our camper, and I don't own a D4, so tell me if this is wrong, but the way I read the D4 information was:
It includes a 75kg driver and fuel
It includes 150kg towball weight
That can be increased to 350kg, but the amount above 150 has to be taken off the vehicle
Is that correct?
I also think in one of the links above it said the D4 was better for towing than everything except a Troopy.

Hi Mick, to each of your points..
I don't believe Land Rover include fuel and a driver in the quoted D4 figures. I took my D4, which is pretty much off the show room floor, with a full tank to a weighbridge yesterday. It weighed 2,620 kilos and the difference between this and the weight in the owners manual accounts for the fuel. I have also asked Land Rover to verify this.
My interpretation is that it can support a 150kg TBM with no impact of the GVM of 3,240
If the TBM is above 150kgs, then the GVM is reduced by 1kg for each kg the TBM is above 150
I think the D4 is a brilliant Tow vehicle, but like every other 4X4 and Ute, you have to watch all the weights. The discerning Motoring press are waking up to this and exposing the real towing capacities of our vehicles. Obviously they are quoting the latest Disco which I don't have the owners guide for to read the small print for towing to determine if it has the same limitations as the D4..

Cheers

David

[justinc]

My L322 Tdv8 includes a full tank (100litres) of fuel in its calcs.

[weeds]

Thanks David, I agree that the van is the main issue and am in conversations with the manufacturer to adjust things to reduce TBM. The Disco is a wonderful tow vehicle, but my fit for service issue is that how can Land Rover with a clear conscious specify it can handle a TBM of 350kgs when that just leaves a legal payload of 70kgs at best. The fine print about reducing GCM is in the owners manual which most will not read until the car is purchased. They should make it clear up front that any tow ball mass over 150kgs will reduce GCM and hence eventual payload. I have not seen this wording in any of the specs downloaded from their web site, but happy to stand corrected...

Cheers

David

I reckon you have 300kg of payload....well based on my numbers.

[tapda01]

Reading my D4 (2010) manual you can increase GVW by 100kg when towing if speed does not exceed 100km/h.

"Note: When towing, the maximum permissible
Gross Vehicle Weight can be increased by a
maximum of 100 kg (220 lbs) provided that the
road speed is limited to 100 km/h (60 mph)."

Hi Wizard, I have the same in my owners handbook, except it says this applies only to the European Union. I suggest that the EU caravans are much lighter than the AU ones so that generally the TBM doesn't exceed 150kgs. A view might be that Land Rover have made a concession to AU of a higher TBM of 350kgs in exchange for a lower GVM. Their concession to EU is an increased GVM if they stick below 100kph....

Cheers

David

[Blknight.aus]

Hi Mick, to each of your points..
I don't believe Land Rover include fuel and a driver in the quoted D4 figures. I took my D4, which is pretty much off the show room floor, with a full tank to a weighbridge yesterday. It weighed 2,620 kilos and the difference between this and the weight in the owners manual accounts for the fuel. I have also asked Land Rover to verify this.
My interpretation is that it can support a 150kg TBM with no impact of the GVM of 3,240
If the TBM is above 150kgs, then the GVM Net weight is reduced by 1kg for each kg the TBM is above 150
I think the D4 is a brilliant Tow vehicle, but like every other 4X4 and Ute, you have to watch all the weights. The discerning Motoring press are waking up to this and exposing the real towing capacities of our vehicles. Obviously they are quoting the latest Disco which I don't have the owners guide for to read the small print for towing to determine if it has the same limitations as the D4..

Cheers

David

Fixed it for you....

GVM DOESNT CHANGE.... Payload does...

WHAT you keep doing is...

reducing the payload and the GVM... you're robbing peter and paul and paying neither...

this was mentioned way back in about post 2 or 3.

[tapda01]

I don’t think you need Land rovers response....as it’s all in your handbook, tare is not overly important and the included towball is just there to confuse the number.

Keep under the below and all is good.....

GVM 3240, you mentioned 320kg tow ball therefore 2920 is the number you’re chasing without the van connected ...with a 2600 tare than you have 300 payload.

Max. Tow ball 350 which you’re under

GCM.....couldn’t see a reference

ATM 2700, can be difficult to achieve with some manufacturers.

I think GVM is reduced by 320 - 150 = 170 … my interpretation of owners manual page 70. It says reduce GVW by 200 if 350 TBM... I am assuming a sliding scale of 1kg less GVM for each additional TBM over 150. This gives 130 payload... My wife and I will both need to diet... I hope to get TBM down to 270 which gives me 180 payload which I can work with..

The ATM of 2,700 is the latest ALKO Outback suspension Rating. The van has a payload of 550kgs

Cheers

David

[Blknight.aus]

Hi Mick, to each of your points..
I don't believe Land Rover include fuel and a driver in the quoted D4 figures.

well shoot, looky thare, its right here in the brochure, page 47...
150142

kerb (tare) mass includes fluids, tools, spare and 75kg driver.

[GregMilner]

Interesting, two threads going at the same time on much the same topic. This is one I started a few days ago, and updated today after another visit to the weighbridge:

Have I got my weight sums right? (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l319-discovery-3-and-4-a/270325-have-i-got-my-weight-sums-right.html)

David you might find some comfort in my most recent post:

Just took the D4 over the weighbridge again, this time to measure weight over the rear wheels only. Came in at 1,660kg, so with gross vehicle weight currently at 3,040kg including me and the bride and full fuel, fridge, rear drawer and some odds and sods, I'm assuming that means there's 1,380kg over the front wheels (1450kg max allowable)

In any case, gives me some comfort, knowing max allowed rear axle weight of 1,885kg gives me about 225kg wriggle room at the back end. If I can get the camper trailer nose weight down to 150kg or thereabouts, happy days.

[DiscoMick]

Hi Mick, to each of your points..
I don't believe Land Rover include fuel and a driver in the quoted D4 figures. I took my D4, which is pretty much off the show room floor, with a full tank to a weighbridge yesterday. It weighed 2,620 kilos and the difference between this and the weight in the owners manual accounts for the fuel. I have also asked Land Rover to verify this.
My interpretation is that it can support a 150kg TBM with no impact of the GVM of 3,240
If the TBM is above 150kgs, then the GVM is reduced by 1kg for each kg the TBM is above 150
I think the D4 is a brilliant Tow vehicle, but like every other 4X4 and Ute, you have to watch all the weights. The discerning Motoring press are waking up to this and exposing the real towing capacities of our vehicles. Obviously they are quoting the latest Disco which I don't have the owners guide for to read the small print for towing to determine if it has the same limitations as the D4..

Cheers

DavidNot the GVM, only the payload, is reduced if the TBM is above 150kg, I think, as a non-expert. Recommend you check this.

[Lukeis]

I think ive read somewhere the 2.7L gets a bigger payload than the 3.0L

finally a win for the little guy 👍

[Eric SDV6SE]

a single axle with a weight of 2700 is right at its limit. (I actually thought a single axle could only be about 2.5t) I have a off road single axle van which weighs 2.5t and my D4 tows it with ease. I have no problem driving at speed limits and when overtaking road trains I have been able to get well over 160kph. I have never felt any problems towing and going up many hills I pass most (if not all) vehicles towing any type of van if they are not at the speed limit. It was one of the reasons I bought the d4. I have toyed with notion of a remap, but as yet have not done so. Recently I put the shunt on wiring so that the car recognized a van was attached. It has made an immediate impact in that I now get 1.5l p 100 kms better fuel economy. I dont understand that but it has lowered it from 15.8 down to 14.3, And that is driving on highways at the speed limit not at 90kph!

When the car recognizes that it's towing a van the throttle response is adjusted, and I believe the torque curve shifted lower in the rpm range, so the car is doing less work higher in the rpm range, that saves fuel.

[tapda01]

well shoot, looky thare, its right here in the brochure, page 47...
150142

kerb (tare) mass includes fluids, tools, spare and 75kg driver.

Many thanks for this... I cant reconcile the numbers with my visit to the Weighbridge yesterday, but happy to concede its the position...

[tapda01]

Not the GVM, only the payload, is reduced if the TBM is above 150kg, I think, as a non-expert. Recommend you check this.

Hi Mick, I am only quoting what is in the owners handbook, and it definitely says GVW.

Regarding the tare weight, Roverlord has produced evidence that the EU do include Fluids and 75kg person in kerb weight.. as said before, I cant reconcile this with my visit to the weigh bridge, but for me I now have my starting point and the only outstanding issue is verifying beyond doubt if and how GVW is adjusted by TBM over 150kgs.. I will keep investigating..

Cheers

David

[Blknight.aus]

Many thanks for this... I cant reconcile the numbers with my visit to the Weighbridge yesterday, but happy to concede its the position...

got to remember thatse the base tare...

if you spec extra options or the wrong rims/tyres the weight goes up.

IIRC the EU spec doesnt include a spare but comes with an emergancy tyre repair kit (and thats what the weight is based off)

doing the LRA Vin search will get you the exact kerb for your spec based on how it left the factory (which is what the manual will reflect)


One of the really nice thing about landy owning is generally what it says in the book is what it delivers.. Unlike some other brands where yes, its a 1T vehicle BUT you must strip the tools, most of the fuel, the driver the spare, in some cases removable body panels, the 3rd row seats...

Effectively landrover has sold you a vehicle with a .5T payload that will take that .5t payload with a driver and a full ball weight. (when other makes will sell you the vehicle as a 1 tonner providing you pull the guff out of it, same same fuel numbers..) and still (if my guestimaths is near enough) have spare weight for a passanger.

Its been that way since the S1 which is a 1/4 ton vehicle that can for some reason carry half a ton in most circumstances...

or fozzy which is a 1 tonner plated for 1.2 t

oh dont forget, theres every chance the weighbridge could be wrong.. most of them weigh heavy and round up on truncation by default.

[Blknight.aus]

Hi Mick, I am only quoting what is in the owners handbook, and it definitely says GVW.

Regarding the tare weight, Roverlord has produced evidence that the EU do include Fluids and 75kg person in kerb weight.. as said before, I cant reconcile this with my visit to the weigh bridge, but for me I now have my starting point and the only outstanding issue is verifying beyond doubt if and how GVW is adjusted by TBM over 150kgs.. I will keep investigating..

Cheers

David

Lets try this....

IF you have the vehicle at GVW and then you want to hook up your nose heavy trailer, THEN you have to reduce the GVW by the amount of the towball.

IF you have the vehicle loaded to max NET Payload it should be (for base spec) 150KG under the GVM (another 75 kg lighter if you're not in the vehicle)

[Chops]

I'm NOT an expert at this, and my Defender is way under the limits when towing our camper, and I don't own a D4, so tell me if this is wrong, but the way I read the D4 information was:
It includes a 75kg driver and fuel
It includes 150kg towball weight
That can be increased to 350kg, but the amount above 150 has to be taken off the vehicle
Is that correct?
I also think in one of the links above it said the D4 was better for towing than everything except a Troopy.


Yep, apparently fuel usage doesn't count whilst being on tour. It seems ok for Toyota to need a fuel truck travelling with it.

[trout1105]

Yep, apparently fuel usage doesn't count whilst being on tour. It seems ok for Toyota to need a fuel truck travelling with it.

IF driven wisely a 79 series V8 will return 15l/100kim, Mine does even when fully loaded and towing a 2.5t van[thumbsupbig]

[dirvine]

IF driven wisely a 79 series V8 will return 15l/100kim, Mine does even when fully loaded and towing a 2.5t van[thumbsupbig]

I had a brand new Tojo 76 wagon with auto, so higher gearing than the manual, and towing my 2.5t caravan I could NEVER get less than 18lph unless I was prepared to sit on 80kph. It was not economical at all AND more expensive to service than my D4 hence I gave it to my son!.

[trout1105]

I had a brand new Tojo 76 wagon with auto, so higher gearing than the manual, and towing my 2.5t caravan I could NEVER get less than 18lph unless I was prepared to sit on 80kph. It was not economical at all AND more expensive to service than my D4 hence I gave it to my son!.

An auto will always use more fuel than a manual box and I did say driven wisely will get you 15l/100klm, I sit on 85kph-90kph on a long trip which saves a Lot of fuel and is much safer than travelling at 100kph.
Travelling slower is also easier on the vehicles and trailers so less damage, /wear and tear, and tyre damage occurs on a long or remote trip which not only saves you money it also helps to prevent breakdowns in the middle of nowhere.

[Fatso]

Bugger , i shot into town to get some popcorn for the next episode and all is quite :( .

[DiscoMick]

I looked up my Defender 110's handbook on towing to see if the same method was used as for a D4.
It says if the vehicle is loaded to maximum Gross Vehicle Weight the nose weight is limited to 150kg.
"If it is necessary to increase the nose weight, up to a maximum of 250kg (550 lbs) the vehicle load should be reduced accordingly. This ensures that the GVW and maximum rear axle load are not exceeded."
So if the towball was on 250kg the GVW would have to be reduced by 100kg.
GVWs for Defenders vary depending on the model and if the vehicle is standard or heavy duty. Max GVW for a HD is 3500kg and max rear axle weight is 2200kg.
So I think that's similar to the method for a D4, but no mention of a 75kg driver or fuel.

[DiscoMick]

Page 75 of the Defender manual. Is the D4 manual similar? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190417/a95b949313b496eb2cbd3a8a60ec4dfc.jpg

[dirvine]

An auto will always use more fuel than a manual box and I did say driven wisely will get you 15l/100klm, I sit on 85kph-90kph on a long trip which saves a Lot of fuel and is much safer than travelling at 100kph.
Travelling slower is also easier on the vehicles and trailers so less damage, /wear and tear, and tyre damage occurs on a long or remote trip which not only saves you money it also helps to prevent breakdowns in the middle of nowhere.

I know this is a LR site but the 76 with manual transmission revs its guts out in top gear. With an auto (from a LC 200) the gearing drops quite considerably (about 900rpm I think at 100kph)) and the torque converter could be locked up or unlocked manually, so there was little to no loss of power. Also the lower revs would probably equate to a manual driving at 80kph. Besides the comfort factor of the D4, the extra fuel used by the LC was also a serious consideration in deciding not to use it as our touring the outback tug. I would rather drive at closer to the legal speed limits on the highways and not cause traffic jams behind me because of the snails pace of some on the road.

[weeds]

GVM..GVW is your max weight regardless of how you interpret the manual.

I don’t believe you can just tag 150kg into your GVM, think owners convince themself this is the case to come under.

[SeanC]

The OP wanted people to check his calculations. But anyone who questioned the figures was told they were wrong. If he is so confident what is the point of this post???

[Fatso]

Just added my front and rear Max alowable Axle weights for my RRS and they came to 110Kg more than the GVM , go figure . [tonguewink]

[gavinwibrow]

Just added my front and rear Axle weights for my RRS and they came to 110Kg more than the GVM , go figure . [tonguewink]


Suggests an aptly named moniker? Huston, we have a problem!

[DiscoMick]

My manual says don't add the from and rear axle maximums as they don't total the GVW, I assume because it's unlikely you would ever reach both at the same time.

[Blknight.aus]

GVM..GVW is your max weight regardless of how you interpret the manual.

I don’t believe you can just tag 150kg into your GVM, think owners convince themself this is the case to come under.

IF you load any landrover up to its max NET over TARE then you still have 150KG to go before you hit GVM. That 150kg is where the "free" 150KG comes from.

since the SII landrover has always done this as a method of getting around UK taxes. same reason as to why the original landies only had 2.248/2.249 l engines marketed as 2.25l instead of the 4.2's the toyotas were getting... TAX...

[weeds]

IF you load any landrover up to its max NET over TARE then you still have 150KG to go before you hit GVM. That 150kg is where the "free" 150KG comes from.

since the SII landrover has always done this as a method of getting around UK taxes. same reason as to why the original landies only had 2.248/2.249 l engines marketed as 2.25l instead of the 4.2's the toyotas were getting... TAX...

I think that’s what’s confusing everybody

The only weights one needs to bother about is

GVM
Axle weights

If towing
TBW
ATM
GCM

Tare, net, home scales weighing, spreadsheets are a irrelevant.....

Forget the 150kg references

Just load up, go to weigh bridge.....if over st least you know and you can make a call from there. My previous combinations only exceeded by a small amount....I was happy to continue without adjustment

[BigJon]

Just added my front and rear Axle weights for my RRS and they came to 110Kg more than the GVM , go figure . [tonguewink]

If you mean maximum allowable axle weights, that is not uncommon. It is one easy way to get GVM increases in Jap 4wds. Add the axle weights together and call it the new GVM. Used to get it done regularly (and engineered) when I was in the mining game. The only proviso was heavy duty rear springs and a sticker to state that any towed trailer required brakes.

[DiscoMick]

GVM..GVW is your max weight regardless of how you interpret the manual.

I don’t believe you can just tag 150kg into your GVM, think owners convince themself this is the case to come under.The Defender manual I excerpted before says at GVW you have 150kg of towball weight. What's confusing about that?
If you go over 150 you have to lighten the GVW by the extra.
Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Am I wrong?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190417/d138680bae94b5711bc422beb87131b7.jpg

[weeds]

The Defender manual I excerpted before says at GVW you have 150kg of towball weight. What's confusing about that?
If you go over 150 you have to lighten the GVW by the extra.
Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Am I wrong?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190417/d138680bae94b5711bc422beb87131b7.jpg

Doesn’t confused me, I just look at GVW or GVM, don’t really care what included as it the maximum you can go to.

LandRover are the only ones that mention it.....and I don’t see why they need to and seems to create confusion. They are saying here is your GVM and we assume you’re towing so we have factored in 150kg.....wonder how they come about 150kg

Much easier to measure you TBW and subtract fro vehicle GVM, pretty simple.

So I’d ignore, load up, and go to the a weigh bridge.

[weeds]

The Defender manual I excerpted before says at GVW you have 150kg of towball weight. What's confusing about that?
If you go over 150 you have to lighten the GVW by the extra.
Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Am I wrong?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190417/d138680bae94b5711bc422beb87131b7.jpg

Reading some comments I believe owners read it as...I can add 150kg to the GVM, could be wrong but that’s the way I read some replies.

[Blknight.aus]

Doesn’t confused me, I just look at GVW or GVM, don’t really care what included as it the maximum you can go to.

LandRover are the only ones that mention it.....and I don’t see why they need to and seems to create confusion. They are saying here is your GVM and we assume you’re towing so we have factored in 150kg.....wonder how they come about 150kg

Much easier to measure you TBW and subtract fro vehicle GVM, pretty simple.

So I’d ignore, load up, and go to the a weigh bridge.

TAX, the way they want you to do it is..

tare weight of vehicle +maximum net load +150KG ball = GVM.

Hypothetically it could be because the tray space or body can only support the max net load. the leftover 150KG can be directly supported on the chassis via the towball.

BUT the vehicle can handle a 350KG ball load. so the extra 200KG has to come out of the NET load OR you take it out of the GVM which does exactly the same thing because essentially the only place you can make the savings is in the net load anyway...

It (and the fact that your driver and fuel is part of your tare) is because landrover are a touch more honest than some other companies who sell a 1t vehicle as a 1t vehicle but only if you have 10% fuel load, no driver, no spare, no tools, no rear seats etc etc etc.. Landrover sell you a 3/4 T vehicle that can take 1T


Reading some comments I believe owners read it as...I can add 150kg to the GVM, could be wrong but that’s the way I read some replies.

I read it the same way.. and some replies read doing the subtraction twice.. take the 200KG out of the GVM and then out of the tare as well.

[weeds]

I read it the same way.. and some replies read doing the subtraction twice.. take the 200KG out of the GVM and then out of the tare as well.

Yes I read one post as double de-ducting.......

Pretty sure transport inspectors only look at the gross weight on the scales and don’t really care how you’ve kept under or exceeded or bow it’s explained in the handbook.

I’ve never been weighed on the roadside and reckon there is a fairly good chance I won’t be in the future.

Have been pinged for rod bolder and warned about sun shades on the rear windows......fairly certain I’ll go through a roadside check (without scales) into the future

[Blknight.aus]

Yes I read one post as double de-ducting.......

Pretty sure transport inspectors only look at the gross weight on the scales and don’t really care how you’ve kept under or exceeded or bow it’s explained in the handbook.

I’ve never been weighed on the roadside and reckon there is a fairly good chance I won’t be in the future.

Have been pinged for rod bolder and warned about sun shades on the rear windows......fairly certain I’ll go through a roadside check (without scales) into the future

Ive been weigh bridged, in fozzy while pulling a tandem... that days fight was about how just because the axles are only 950 apart and count as one axle for rego doesnt mean I have to abide by the maximum single axle weight limit.

[gavinwibrow]

Ive been weigh bridged, in fozzy while pulling a tandem... that days fight was about how just because the axles are only 950 apart and count as one axle for rego doesnt mean I have to abide by the maximum single axle weight limit.

And I'd safely bet you baffled them with brilliance as usual.

[Eevo]

i went on the weigh bridge today, while loaded, 12.8t

[Blknight.aus]

And I'd safely bet you baffled them with brilliance as usual.

no sheer bloody minded stubbornness and the words "just go get your supervisor", same as when a road patroller cant grasp the fact that just because it looks lifted compared to a RAV a deefer has not been lifted if the roof is at the spec height for the vehicle...


i went on the weigh bridge today, while loaded, 12.8t

you need to go on a diet.

[DiscoMick]

I've actually learned a lot figuring out the stuff in this thread (I think I've figured it out) so thanks all.

Off to load up the trailer with timber and see what weight I can get it too. Got the total to 3.1 tonnes the other day when I went to the tip.

[Saitch]

It's all Smoke and Mirrors.

My '93 4.2 litre 1HZ L/cruiser 'tilly has a factory ball weight of 110kg. In the '96 model, it's 250kg. The difference..........Toyota upgraded the tow bar to 250kg.
I have since put on a 350kg Hayman Reece bar but am still rated at 110kg down weight. This is after having a conference with two
Qld Transport engineers, who totally agreed with me that it was a ludicrous situation but, so be it!

Anyway, back to topic.
Why does the OP's van have to have a ball weight of 350 kg? Has it been weighed at that or is it using the old 10% chestnut?

My apologies if this has been raised elsewhere.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, 350kg is pretty high. I'd be looking at ways of lightening the can and moving the weight off the towball. For example, does it have a big box at the front loaded up with a generator, firewood, tools etc? If, empty it. That would reduce the towball weight. Also can the water weight be moved backwards?

[DiscoMick]

Hi, I am a little frantic and would appreciate some validation of my calculations please.... I purchased a single axle off road van with ATM of 2,700 kgs and a ball weight of 270kgs. I calculate when sensibly loaded with full water tanks that the ball weight will increase to about 320 kgs. I also purchased a 2013 SDV6 Disco 4 to tow the van with, assuming (wrongly I now believe) that it had ample power and as it was rated as 3,500kgs max tow weight and 350 kgs max ball weight it would handle the van with ease. If only I had done the calculations fully beforehand....

The Disco 4 has a Tare stated in the handbook of 2,546kgs.
The tank takes 82 litres of diesel. 10 litres I understand are included in Tare so the remaining 72 add 60kgs giving kerb weight of 2,606
The manual states the CGM of 3,240 is only valid with a ball weight of 150kgs or less. For every kilogram of ball weight over the 150, the CGM decreases by 1 kg. This means that the CGM if towing a 3,500kg van with a ball weight of 350KG will reduce to 3,040kgs.
This gives us a legal payload of 3,040 minus the kerb weight of 2,606 minus the ball weight of 350 equalling 84kgs!!!! Â… the wife and kids will need to stay at home and I will need to go on a diet to legally drive the rig... So, are my calculations incorrect, have I misunderstood the manual or did Land Rover have brain fade? Â…. you can tow a big van Mr customer,but you have to do so by yourself ....not fit for purpose I suggest....

I think my calcs are correct, but I would love them to be wrong...

With the van I purchased, I can just about squeeze in my wife and an esky... it has to be empty.. all recovery gear moved into the van.... Do I replace the car or the van?

Thanks

DavidJust backtracking, if 150 is included in the GVM, and the vehicle is at GVM, then if the towball was at 350kg, then you would deduct 200, not 350, from the GVW, so that immediately saves 150kg.
What is your actual GVW?
What is your actual towball weight!

[DiscoMick]

Then you allow for the fact you can already have 75kg for the weight of the driver, and the weight of a tank of fuel, say 80kg for the sake of discussion, and you've got 150+75+80 and you've got 305kg to play with, so you don't need to leave the wife behind.
Plus, every kg you are below GVW is a gain.
And you only have to deduct every towball kg above 150kg.

[DiscoMick]

Hi Rod, yes, I have sent them an email seeking clarification. They came back to me promptly asking for my VIN details. I await their further reply.

In the interim, I took my pretty much standard D4 with no accessories apart from brake controller and anderson plugs with a tank full of diesel to a weigh bridge.
It weighed 2,620kgs.
80 litres of Diesel weighs 67kgs meaning the tare is 2,553kgs. This is close enough to the stated tare of 2,568kgs for the SDV6 Diesel to I think dispel the theory put forward by many that weight includes 75kg for the driver.....

Cheers

DavidIf the actual weight of the vehicle is 2620kg then you have the difference between that and the GVW (not the tare) available as payload.
Do NOT deduct the 75kg driver or the fuel or the 150kg towball from the 2620 - they are already included.
If the maximum GVW is 3240kg then the available payload is 3240-2620=620kg.
If the towball increases above 150 then deduct that from the 620 e.g. if the towball was 350 then deduct 200 (350-150) from the payload, which is then 420.
Deduct the weight of your wife, kids, luggage etc and you should still be sweet.
Anyway, that's what I can figure.

[Saitch]

I purchased a single axle off road van with ATM of 2,700 kgs and a ball weight of 270kgs. I calculate when sensibly loaded with full water tanks that the ball weight will increase to about 320 kgs.



Thanks

David

So, what your saying is, that you're increasing your ball weight by 50 kg. Using the old 10% notion, this means, your sensibly loading another half a tonne of weight on to the van! :Thump:

Just because your ATM is 2700 kg doesn't mean your actual ball weight is 270 kg or, have you weighed it?

By the way, if your ATM is 2700 kg, then that's your limit. If it's your Tare Weight then that's OK. For instance, the single axle Kedron CP5 has a Tare of 2250 kg and an ATM of 2750kg.

What size water tanks does it have? Travel with them 1/4 - 1/2 and fill up only when necessary.

[SeanC]

Should we take a vote?

If the vehicle is at GVM can you tow a trailer with a towball weight of 150kg or less as long as you don’t exceed GCM? And of course rear axel weight.

I say yes.

[weeds]

Should we take a vote?

If the vehicle is at GVM can you tow a trailer with a towball weight of 150kg or less as long as you don’t exceed GCM? And of course rear axel weight.

I say yes.

Need clarification....

was the vehicle weighed with the trailer hooked up? If so yes

Or was trailer was hooked up after hitting vehicle hits GVM?? If so no

re: GCM, you haven’t mentioned the ATM of the the trailer.....you could have a very heavy trailer with a low TBW....but one would assume with only a 150kg TBW you would be well under GCM, as we all know TBW has to be 10% [emoji6]

Re: rear axle, not enough info....all depends on weight distribution within the vehicle, again I’d assume you would be under with only 150kg TBW.

[Odysseyman]

Should we take a vote?

If the vehicle is at GVM can you tow a trailer with a towball weight of 150kg or less as long as you don’t exceed GCM? And of course rear axel weight.

I say yes.

oh dear... NO!!

David

[Saitch]

oh dear... NO!!

David

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

[SeanC]

Need clarification....

was the vehicle weighed with the trailer hooked up? If so yes

Or was trailer was hooked up after hitting vehicle hits GVM?? If so no

re: GCM, you haven’t mentioned the ATM of the the trailer.....you could have a very heavy trailer with a low TBW....but one would assume with only a 150kg TBW you would be well under GCM, as we all know TBW has to be 10% [emoji6]

Re: rear axle, not enough info....all depends on weight distribution within the vehicle, again I’d assume you would be under with only 150kg TBW.

Oh dear, what have I done? My brain is starting to hurt. I’m so, so happy my camper trailer weighs only about 700kg.

[DiscoMick]

This has all been discussed in other places. After reading it all, I think it's pretty clear. LR does it differently to other manufacturers. What the manufacturer says is law.
GVW includes 150kg of towball weight.

Ball weight adds to payload - Unless you have a Land Rover Discovery - Caravaners Forum - Since 2000 (http://caravanersforum.com/viewtopic.php't=63084)

[Saitch]

The OP states the van has an ATM of 2700kg and ball weight of 270kg. End of story. I'm not sure what he's worried about?

The only way he could increase the ball weight to 320kg would be to exceed the ATM, not recommended, or move some existing weight a fair way forward!

What is the van Tare?

If the van is already around 2700kg and there's no water in the tanks then the van is not fit for purpose!

Anyway, once a van gets over these sort of dimensions they are normally dual axle so the ball weight is affected again. I don't think I'd buy a 3500kg, single axle van, would you?

[weeds]

This has all been discussed in other places. After reading it all, I think it's pretty clear. LR does it differently to other manufacturers. What the manufacturer says is law.
GVW includes 150kg of towball weight.

Ball weight adds to payload - Unless you have a Land Rover Discovery - Caravaners Forum - Since 2000 (http://caravanersforum.com/viewtopic.php't=63084)

The GVW, GCM, axle limits and max. TBW are the only legal parts. Inclusions likes 150kg, driver @ 75kg, fuel etc don’t really mean anything because they are all variables (that affect the legal parts) that the manufacturer has zero control over.

[weeds]

Bloody facebook is watching my every move

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190419/b6349f152fbf1c64185cbf9f15e0790d.jpg

[donh54]

TBW does NOT have to be 10% of ATM!
That figure came out years ago as a ballpark figure for trailer building/loading. It has never been included in any regulation that I am aware of.
All the figures in the world, punched into the most advanced supercomputer don't mean diddly squat.
What matters is what a weighbridge tells you. If you are not exceeding any of the required weights (GVM, GCM, ATM, tyre and axle weight limits), then you are fine. When you have it setup to those specs, get a copy of the weighbridge docket, and keep it in a safe place, for "just in case" scenarios.

[acgmarketing]

total bull**** Evo,, nothing is built to those dimensions,, towball to axle = X,, behind axle to end of van = X ..

its just a sales gimmick..

Trailerable yachts can get really close to that setup. Different to motor boats and caravans because the heaviest part of the load tends to be the lead in the centreboard and many trailer builders like to set up the trailer with the axles directly under that mass. Additionally many yachties like to try avoiding dunking the wheel bearings when launching/retrieving thus axles tend to be further forward than your standard caravan setup and more like the X/X setup in this demo.

A 27 foot aluminium 3T trailer sailer I tow at times is like that (dual axle). It tends to wander due to less tow ball weight so much so that I’m now looking at trying to change its trailer setup to improve things. The axles are mounted to a cradle system to which the trailer chassis is then mounted. Clearly it’s all well secured but in theory the chassis could be moved further forward on the cradle for longer distance towing and then moved backwards for local towing work/launching/retrieving.

Anyway, trailer sailer axles can look more like that setup once you put the boat on top with longer rear overhangs than you’d anticipate looking just at the trailer alone.

[acgmarketing]

Thanks Mick... I wish I was in the same position... both my tanks and most of the storage is forward of the axle. I have calculated the moment of all extras in the van (weight x distance from axle) to establish the new ball weight... I am going to have to move a tank behind the axle to bring the ball weight back to something reasonable...

Cheers

David

Check me here please ... using moment calculations of weight x distance from axle to determine ball weight won’t work ... that’ll give you the torque applied to the axle by a given mass located somewhere along the chassis, not the added ball weight. For example, if the distance from ball to axle is say 4m and you have got a 40kg mass located 2m in front of the axle, using weight(mass) x distance from axle will give you a moment of 80Nm force acting on the axle in a rotational manner (torque) but doesn’t mean the ball weight has increased by 80kg (and clearly not 40kg either).

You’ll want to use a mechanical advantage calculation or similar to determine how much increase or decrease in ball weight placing masses in front or behind the axle will cause. You’d use load length/lever length x mass added ... eg 2m/4m x 40 kg = 20kg for the example above.

Or just load up and visit a weigh bridge to know. Has the OP given actual weights from a bridge to help out here? I looked through the thread but couldn’t find any actual weights yet.

[Mike.C]

I looked through the thread but couldn’t find any actual weights yet.


You have inspired me to post! My take on the ball weight argument is I don't care what the manual says about including or excluding it, the only thing that matters is passing a roadside weigh in where they get numbers from the placards affixed to the car and trailer and then compare it to what they find. I would not like to try and argue about adding or subtracting ball weight beside the road with an officer who's late for lunch break and needed a pee.

So to put my mind at ease I got Rod at GVM check (see the screen shot posted previously) to do the numbers. It cost $199 with a RACQ discount and was worth every penny because as well as compliance weights I now have left right wheel weight information that a weigh bridge cannot provide.

The car (2014 D4 TDV6) is fitted with an ARB bar and Optima second battery up front, on top is a Rhino rack full length platform with a Darche Eclipse 180 awning on the LHS all mounted on the rhino backbone, in the rear was a Bushman fridge, about 1/3 of a tank of fuel and I was sitting in the car. As it was a worst case scenario test I loaded up the camper trailer with every toy (2 MTB and 2 kayaks) and bit of gear (6 chairs etc etc etc) that I could find, water tanks and gas bottles full, etc etc etc so as to get an absolute maximum for future reference. So here are the actual weights allowable / actual.

Vehicle - with trailer
Axle Load
Front: 1450 / 1371
Rear: 1855 / 1671
GVM: 3240 / 3042

Vehicle - no trailer
Axle Load
Front: 1450 / 1381
Rear: 1855 / 1491
GVM: 3240 / 2872

Ball Load: 350 / 170
Max towing capacity: 3500 / 1823
Gross Combined Vehicle Mass: 6740 / 4735

Aggregate Trailer Mass: 1850 / 1823
Axle Load capacity: 2000 / 1693

The left right weight info that a weighbridge cannot provide is interesting.

Front Left: 722
Front right: 659
Rear left: 712
Rear Right: 779

Aside from a legal piece of mind, the take home I got from the excersize was that when fully loaded there is very little legal weight left over for people and gear in the car and at fully loaded our trailer is very close to maximum allowable weight.

I hope that helps others who might be wondering.

[Aussie Jeepster]

Or buy on of these!
150225

[ozscott]

I have one of those. Great kit. Mine is Milenco brand but looks identical. Cheers.

[DiscoMick]

Definitely need to use a row ball weight scale to get a real figure. I'm sceptical about the OP's calculation on a 350kg TBW. It seems too high to me, but the only way to be sure is to actually measure it.

[SimmAus]

I’ve read 137 posts on this... it’s done my head in.
The moment we have to weigh the bacon and eggs we take out of the fridge in the trailer and eat to calculate if we are still legal is the moment of insanity.
I have no logical input to this, sorry, but me thinks if you are not happy towing your van: don’t.
Buy something else (another van, another (less capable tug)).
The legalities of all this are irrelevant if you are not happy

Cheers

[trout1105]

In my travels I have seen heaps of D4's towing big caravans and they seem to do it with consummate ease[thumbsupbig]
IF the OP is unhappy towing his van with a D4 then maybe he needs to trade it in on a 79 series that will tow just about anything But it will be Nowhere near as comfortable or refined as a D4.

[Slunnie]

TBW does NOT have to be 10% of ATM!
That figure came out years ago as a ballpark figure for trailer building/loading. It has never been included in any regulation that I am aware of.
All the figures in the world, punched into the most advanced supercomputer don't mean diddly squat.
What matters is what a weighbridge tells you. If you are not exceeding any of the required weights (GVM, GCM, ATM, tyre and axle weight limits), then you are fine. When you have it setup to those specs, get a copy of the weighbridge docket, and keep it in a safe place, for "just in case" scenarios.
Without reading 50 pages here, I tend to agree. 10% for a heavy trailer is way too much and makes the tow vehicle move around as it pushes the back around - also why LR quote really high pressures on the rear when towing.

I tend to think the most important thing, apart from overall weights, ok the 2nd most important thing is to keep the trailer loads centred over the axles with heavy stuff if anything forward of the axle to prevent sway, and to not go silly with ball weight - I look for about 25mm drop on the tow bar max when loading which is heaps and heaps. Your tow setup will handle really well in the corners and with stability. It also helps retain your ability to brake and doesn’t send you headlights too far up into the trees.

[weeds]

- I look for about 25mm drop on the tow bar max when loading which is heaps and heaps. Your tow setup will handle really well in the corners and with stability. It also helps retain your ability to brake and doesn’t send you headlights too far up into the trees.

I used this method all the time, I look at the height of the tow ball drop as the load is applied.......

quite often I have to explain the the forklift driver why I want him to either push the pallet on more or drag it back that I’m looking for a small drop in height of the hitch instead of looking at where the load is on the trailer.

[DiscoMick]

I noticed one towing guide recommended a TBW of 7-15%, which seemed good advice.
On the Defender I attach the load and then pump the rear airbags until the vehicle is level, using the Bubble level ap I downloaded to my phone.
A point made above about LR recommending high rear tyre pressures when towing is important. The placard recommends 48 in the rear of the Defender.

[BrianElloy]

As an experiment I was towing my 1900kg laden camper trailer down south and wanted to see what difference LLAMS would make to the handling of the whole rig.

In a word, REMARKBLE.

At level height and at 175kg on the ball it handled ok. -20mm on LLAMS (with a minor forward movement of the trailer’s CoG, and subsequently increasing ball weight) it handled SO MUCH better both on straight and through bends.

Conversely, with LLAMS set to +20mm above it felt wallowy and bouncy.

I’ll keep LLAMS at standard height but I’ll be making a minor adjustment to my standard hitch height for sure.

[tapda01]

Bloody facebook is watching my every move

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190419/b6349f152fbf1c64185cbf9f15e0790d.jpg

Hi Weeds, now the three of us are in agreement... I am still querying the 200kg reduction mentioned in the handbook, but I can work with this...

Dear Mr Tapper,

Thank you for your patience whilst we investigate into your query.

To confirm, our Product team have liaised with our UK Office for assistance with your weight and towing query.

They have advised based on your VIN details provided and Australian Design Rules:

Curb Weight = 2568 kg (that includes 90% fuel but not a Driver)

GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) = 3240 kg

GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) – 350 kg nose load = 2890 kg

2890 – 2568 kg = 322 kg available payload for passengers and cargo providing stipulations below are met.

- Make sure to never exceed the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW), the Gross Train Weight (GTW), or the front and rear axle weights.
- Include the trailer's nose weight when calculating the GVW and the rear axle weight.
- When calculating the vehicle's rear axle weight, the vehicle's payload weights must also be considered. Include the combined weights of all the rear passengers, the loadspace, roof rail, accessory equipment, and the trailer nose weight. The combined weights must never exceed the GVW or the maximum weights for the front and rear axles.
- Make sure that the GVW, the GTW, and the maximum rear axle weight limits are not exceeded when applying the trailer nose weight. If required, reduce the weight of the vehicle's payload.

For your records, it is best recommended to print a copy and leave one in your vehicle's glovebox for future reference.

Assuring you of our best intentions at all times.

Kind regards,


Daniel
Customer Relationship Centre Administrator
Jaguar Land Rover Australia

Cheers

David

[tapda01]

If the actual weight of the vehicle is 2620kg then you have the difference between that and the GVW (not the tare) available as payload.
Do NOT deduct the 75kg driver or the fuel or the 150kg towball from the 2620 - they are already included.
If the maximum GVW is 3240kg then the available payload is 3240-2620=620kg.
If the towball increases above 150 then deduct that from the 620 e.g. if the towball was 350 then deduct 200 (350-150) from the payload, which is then 420.
Deduct the weight of your wife, kids, luggage etc and you should still be sweet.
Anyway, that's what I can figure.

Mick, got the following response from Land Rover...

Dear Mr Tapper,

Thank you for your patience whilst we investigate into your query.

To confirm, our Product team have liaised with our UK Office for assistance with your weight and towing query.

They have advised based on your VIN details provided and Australian Design Rules:

Curb Weight = 2568 kg (that includes 90% fuel but not a Driver)

GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) = 3240 kg

GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) – 350 kg nose load = 2890 kg

2890 – 2568 kg = 322 kg available payload for passengers and cargo providing stipulations below are met.

- Make sure to never exceed the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW), the Gross Train Weight (GTW), or the front and rear axle weights.
- Include the trailer's nose weight when calculating the GVW and the rear axle weight.
- When calculating the vehicle's rear axle weight, the vehicle's payload weights must also be considered. Include the combined weights of all the rear passengers, the loadspace, roof rail, accessory equipment, and the trailer nose weight. The combined weights must never exceed the GVW or the maximum weights for the front and rear axles.
- Make sure that the GVW, the GTW, and the maximum rear axle weight limits are not exceeded when applying the trailer nose weight. If required, reduce the weight of the vehicle's payload.

For your records, it is best recommended to print a copy and leave one in your vehicle's glovebox for future reference.

Assuring you of our best intentions at all times.

Kind regards,


Daniel
Customer Relationship Centre Administrator
Jaguar Land Rover Australia


I think it clarifies most things...

David

[tapda01]

IF you load any landrover up to its max NET over TARE then you still have 150KG to go before you hit GVM. That 150kg is where the "free" 150KG comes from.

since the SII landrover has always done this as a method of getting around UK taxes. same reason as to why the original landies only had 2.248/2.249 l engines marketed as 2.25l instead of the 4.2's the toyotas were getting... TAX...

Ive posted Land Rovers response to me in case you want to check it....

[DiscoMick]

Thanks. Interesting.

[Barraman]

I've read all this - and now my head hurts!

I have a simple approach to towing with my D4. My boat/trailer loaded for fishing weighs 2600kg. The trailer is dual axle with roller rocker springs and electric/hydraulic brakes to all four wheels rated at 3200 kg.

Its set up for a TBW of 250 kg.

I load whatever else I need to take into the Disco and go.

I have towed the boat >20,000 km in the last year, including three trips to the NT. My D4 tows the boat like its not there, and I tow at the speed limit (ie 130 km/hr in the NT) if road conditions allow. I generally tow 1,000-1,400 km in a day.

The D4 is the most capable, sure footed, comfortable, safe, easy travelling vehicle/tow vehicle I have ever driven - period!.

[Bewitched]

I've read all this - and now my head hurts!

I have a simple approach to towing with my D4. My boat/trailer loaded for fishing weighs 2600kg. The trailer is dual axle with roller rocker springs and electric/hydraulic brakes to all four wheels rated at 3200 kg.

Its set up for a TBW of 250 kg.

I load whatever else I need to take into the Disco and go.

I have towed the boat >20,000 km in the last year, including three trips to the NT. My D4 tows the boat like its not there, and I tow at the speed limit (ie 130 km/hr in the NT) if road conditions allow. I generally tow 1,000-1,400 km in a day.

The D4 is the most capable, sure footed, comfortable, safe, easy travelling vehicle/tow vehicle I have ever driven - period!.


I reckon you are completely fine with what you have with your set up because of the following (calculations done to try and help anyone else who's head is being done in by this thread...):

Trailer capacity 3200kg and all up ATM of 2600kg is fine. No extra weight in the trailer means this is sorted as it stays at these numbers.
Assuming the 2600kg is the ATM (ie includes the ball weight), and the ball weight of 250kg is accurate, then you have 250kg on the ball and 2350kg through the wheels, still all good. Ball weight of 250kg is under 350kg max, so all good here too.

Then using the LR response, modified to suit your application you get the following:

Curb Weight = 2568 kg (that includes 90% fuel but not a Driver) (assuming your vehicle is the same as David's D4)

GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) = 3240 kg (ditto as above)

GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) – 250 kg nose load = 2990 kg

2990 – 2568 kg = 422 kg available payload for passengers and cargo (and accessories fitted to the Disco of course).

Gross train weight (even if you load your vehicle up with 422kg of accessories, people and stuff up to the 3240kg GVM limit) means gross train weight is 3240 + 2350 = 5590kg, which is still well under the max for the D4. If you don't have the full 422kg of people and stuff on board, then your GTW is even less, and even more OK (if that makes sense).

Hope that helps!

[Barraman]

I reckon you are completely fine with what you have with your set up because of the following (calculations done to try and help anyone else who's head is being done in by this thread...):

Trailer capacity 3200kg and all up ATM of 2600kg is fine. No extra weight in the trailer means this is sorted as it stays at these numbers.
Assuming the 2600kg is the ATM (ie includes the ball weight), and the ball weight of 250kg is accurate, then you have 250kg on the ball and 2350kg through the wheels, still all good. Ball weight of 250kg is under 350kg max, so all good here too.

Then using the LR response, modified to suit your application you get the following:

Curb Weight = 2568 kg (that includes 90% fuel but not a Driver) (assuming your vehicle is the same as David's D4)

GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) = 3240 kg (ditto as above)

GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) – 250 kg nose load = 2990 kg

2990 – 2568 kg = 422 kg available payload for passengers and cargo (and accessories fitted to the Disco of course).

Gross train weight (even if you load your vehicle up with 422kg of accessories, people and stuff up to the 3240kg GVM limit) means gross train weight is 3240 + 2350 = 5590kg, which is still well under the max for the D4. If you don't have the full 422kg of people and stuff on board, then your GTW is even less, and even more OK (if that makes sense).

Hope that helps!

Than you for taking the time to work through that. Its very interesting - and nice to know that I appear to be all good in the towing department!

Cheers

Lee

[Bewitched]

Than you for taking the time to work through that. Its very interesting - and nice to know that I appear to be all good in the towing department!

Cheers

Lee

You are very welcome. The numbers can be very confusing when you talk about actual weights versus allowable weight limits, and whether the tow ball load is included or not etc. Taken one step at a time, I think it all sort of makes sense, and is important to get right when punting about the contryside at 100km/hr or so with 6 or so Tonnes of metal involved...

[DiscoMick]

It is interesting because the LR response seems to be different from the handbook. Beats me.

[gavinwibrow]

It is interesting because the LR response seems to be different from the handbook. Beats me.

I concur.

Perhaps the original letter writer could be persuaded to do a follow-up with LR. Maybe they (LR) just forgot to add the driver bit in their response.

[Blknight.aus]

Ive posted Land Rovers response to me in case you want to check it....

checked it...

and its not in line with what the dealers say when you ring in......

[DiscoMick]

I reckon the vehicle manual is the officially approved gospel, if this went to court. Everything else is just opinions.

[Homestar]

Just an observation - if your van, ball weight, loads in either the vehicle or van are so close to max capacity that you have to juggle the bacon and eggs and how big a dog you can put in the back - if it's that close to the wire, do you have the wrong tow vehicle and/or van in the first place? I know with my van I have around 100kg up my sleeve when I'm loaded ready to go, water tank full, and I'm only half of the towing capacity of the tow vehicle I use, so not only do I know I'm 100% legal when I set out, but also that the towing experience is easy, rather than heavy or 'on the edge' as some people's are. Not saying you can't or shouldn't have a big flash heavy van, but taking any vehicle close to its 'legal' limit will always be a compromise to stay within GCM.

[stuarth44]

Yes GCM is always the same. But every kg over 150kg ball weight adds to the vehicle’s GVM therefore reducing the available payload for wife kids etc. Re-distributing the weight of the caravan does not change GCM but increases the available payload by reducing the tow ball weight. If tow ball weight is reduced from 350kg to 250kg that is an extra 100kg for the wife and kids which what the OP is concerned about.

Just to clarify. GVM + 3500kg = GCM is only true if ball weight is 150kg or below. Possible but not advisable.

Well I towed this with almost no ball weight at all simply cos once loaded I could not adjust the load, The 2010 TDV6 handled like a dream, distance from axle combo centre to ball makes a great deal of difference, on vans 1600 is max distance from the ball to the front of van body, that is nutty, I have built so many trailers for 8m boats, always i gave em really long drawbars
this box has a 450kg fridge unit at the rear of this pick, the trailer is 850 tare, the load guessing 2500
upon you tube there is a vid of a d4 towing a van through slalem on wet roads, they could not get the disco to lose stability n control
Practical Caravan | Land Rover Discovery | Review 2013 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YBN0J7kGPc&t=94s&ab_channel=PracticalCaravan)
Land Rover Trailer Stability technology - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy4vfcX_BrU&ab_channel=Eurotuner)

[scarry]

Scroll down to the post about the Police weighing vehicles towing vans,campers,etc.


Traffic and Highway Patrol Command - NSW Police Force (https://www.facebook.com/TrafficServicesNSWPF)

[haydent]

just noticed this in the D4 era manual (acutally rrs but i imagine its there too)


Nose weight must be the greater of 50 kg or 7%
of the actual trailer laden weight, up to the
maximum tow hitch load. Nose weight can be
measured using a proprietary brand of nose
weight indicator.

on another note, i found a weight distribution hitch works for me to shift about 80kg off the rear axle

taking car spare tyre off takes appx 35kg off the rear axle

taking the gonads off takes appx 47kg off the rear axle

about 50% of the weight added to the rear bar of my 23ft caravan is removed from the ball weight of the van

also i saw a video on yt that demonstrated that when self leveling suspension pumps up to level, it actually puts more weight on the rear axle than with the sag, so air bags (even the manual ones added inside coil springs) just make the car level, at the cost of rear axle load, but WDH helps both.

[Slunnie]

taking the gonads off takes appx 47kg off the rear axle


That's some big gonads! :lol2:

[Graeme]

I suspect a missing decimal point.

[haydent]

I suspect a missing decimal point.

nope, they are 32kg themselves, and then due to the offset behind the axle, contribute 47kg to it

Suggestion for lowering GVM and Rear Axle load when towing a van (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l319-discovery-3-and-4-a/292130-suggestion-lowering-gvm-rear-axle-load-when-towing-van-post3234677.html#post3234677)

[Graeme]

From my recollection they didn't look to weigh anything like 16kg each, but I didn't remove them and weigh them.

[discomatt69]

Before our last trip I weighed the car and van, very disturbing rear axle weight but won't go into that but what I did find interesting was that even with self leveling suspension when the van was hooked up it removed 100kg from the front axle and put it onto the rear.
You would expect weight transfer if a car sagged on the rear and lifted the front but not when the car is still level, I hate to imagine what happens to the average Ute that tows with the rear down 3 inches and the front pointing to the sky
Asa side note I didn't think weight distribution hitch could be used on a LR with air suspension

[Graeme]

Self-levelling won't affect weight transfer.
To set a WDH, before lowering the coupling onto the ball, open a door, press the raise switch, lower the van onto the ball then set the WDH to raise the rear perhaps half-way to levelling the car. The lower switch can then be pressed then the door closed to remain at normal height. That ensures that the WDH isn't set too high.

[haydent]

From my recollection they didn't look to weigh anything like 16kg each, but I didn't remove them and weigh them.
I did and they are dense as f


Before our last trip I weighed the car and van, very disturbing rear axle weight but won't go into that but what I did find interesting was that even with self leveling suspension when the van was hooked up it removed 100kg from the front axle and put it onto the rear.
You would expect weight transfer if a car sagged on the rear and lifted the front but not when the car is still level, I hate to imagine what happens to the average Ute that tows with the rear down 3 inches and the front pointing to the sky
Asa side note I didn't think weight distribution hitch could be used on a LR with air suspension
all it does is change the towball weight, the same way this is done through normal mechanisms, a sagging car will actually have less weight on the rear axle than one that has air bag and is pumped level


Self-levelling won't affect weight transfer.
To set a WDH, before lowering the coupling onto the ball, open a door, press the raise switch, lower the van onto the ball then set the WDH to raise the rear perhaps half-way to levelling the car. The lower switch can then be pressed then the door closed to remain at normal height. That ensures that the WDH isn't set too high.

it does, ive seen it and can show you the yt video, ill get it after posting this, regards to your porcess i think that might be back to front, as if you start high, hitch up then lower you are acutally putting more load on the bars than you could put on manually, which might be deemed unsafe. in the beginning i would just have the car off, then lower hitch, and start car. but now i know what chain link i like to have them on, i just lower while running, let it level if it wants to and then just hitch the bars to my favourite chain link setting.

[haydent]

The Effect of 4 Corner Auto Leveling on a Weight Distribution System

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj2oqAiltsk

[haydent]

Asa side note I didn't think weight distribution hitch could be used on a LR with air suspension

i was just pointed to this Tow Ball Download weight confusion with state legal (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l319-discovery-3-and-4-a/286049-tow-ball-download-weight-confusion-state-legal-post3250680.html#post3250680) where it does refer to them as equalising hitch
pity there's not more detail there as to why, if they think its just not necessary or something else

[Graeme]

You misread my post. I didn't state to raise the vehicle, rather to select off-road height with a door already open which inhibits the height change and inhibits self-levelling. That means that the rear will sag under the eatra weight which allows one to gauge how much lift to provide with the WDH. Once that has been set, cancel the raise request by selecting normal height then close the door.

[DieselLSE]

i was just pointed to this Tow Ball Download weight confusion with state legal (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l319-discovery-3-and-4-a/286049-tow-ball-download-weight-confusion-state-legal-post3250680.html#post3250680) where it does refer to them as equalising hitch
pity there's not more detail there as to why, if they think its just not necessary or something else

My gut feel is that it must interfere with the trailer sway control part of the stability control system, but I can't quite work out how.

[BradC]

My grandfather built his own sway bars and tried several prototypes over the years. His explanation was by re-distributing the weight (raising the back of the car) there was more weight on the front wheels which helped both the stability of the steering but also the distribution of weight on the wheels across the whole train.

When I started towing his van with my Volvo station wagon, the sway bars made a significant difference to the stability of the setup, particularly in gusty conditions. When I hooked it to the D3 I figured the self-leveling effectively did the same thing, so never used them and have never had to.

Now, at the same time, the van weighed about as much as the Volvo, where it's about 1T lighter than the D3 also. He did a couple of laps towing it behind a 70 series, and he needed the bars for that, so it isn't entirely just weight related.

[haydent]

You misread my post. I didn't state to raise the vehicle, rather to select off-road height with a door already open which inhibits the height change and inhibits self-levelling. That means that the rear will sag under the eatra weight which allows one to gauge how much lift to provide with the WDH. Once that has been set, cancel the raise request by selecting normal height then close the door.

yes i did :)



My gut feel is that it must interfere with the trailer sway control part of the stability control system, but I can't quite work out how.

ive thought about this too, but weight distribution isnt really a anti-sway device


My grandfather built his own sway bars and tried several prototypes over the years. ...He did a couple of laps towing it behind a 70 series, and he needed the bars for that, so it isn't entirely just weight related.

neat

[haydent]

back on the original topic, ive looked into some other cars, and in terms of fit for purpose from the maker, a toyota LC 200 series is not much better, being pretty close to gvm limit with just a full tank of petrol, 2 passengers, and a bull bar, without even towing! and ive heard of weighing companies that wont even book you in unless youve had a gvm upgrade as they know that youll be over when towing without even checking

the benefit of the LC200 is though that you can get gvm upgrades , which while legal, might be pushing it a bit much some might say, and thats part of why they sell for 50k+ vs a D4 at 15k for a 10-15 year old car ...

[BradC]

neat

Way to miss the point. You keep using your WDH. Just for ****s sake stop spamming it across every towing related necro thread you can find on the forum. The rest of us with air suspension seem to manage quite well without one.

[haydent]

Sorry, to upset, i must have missed your point, it seemed in favour of them. Im not meaning spam, im actually posting my results that ive been investigating and discussing about in these threads for some time

[BradC]

Look, I'm sorry. I've had a **** couple of days and I think you copped it.

My point was my grandfather started working on his sway bars in 1964 when he discovered his Holden used to get a sway up due to the lightness on the front wheels. 50 years later his 70 series, and my fathers 200 series still had/have the same flaw.

Our self leveling vehicles don't have that issue, and the manual says "don't do that". So while what you have works for you, again the manual says "don't do that".

Frankly my plug in tow hitch looks fragile enough without adding torsion bars to it where the manual says not to. That and seeing you necro and 8 year old thread just popped my valve.

So again, I apologise.

[discomatt69]

Maybe just maybe it's the standard and might I add very average factory design hitch on the D3 and 4 that is the issue with WDH's and why LR recommends not to use them and they may work fine with an aftermarket hitch
personally I'm not going to get a WDH because as stated previously and after towing 1000s of km the D4 doesn't need one other than the rear axle numbers and that's a legality issue not a performance or safety issue
bring on the GVM upgrade thread !!!

[haydent]

Look, I'm sorry. I've had a **** couple of days and I think you copped it.

My point was my grandfather started working on his sway bars in 1964 when he discovered his Holden used to get a sway up due to the lightness on the front wheels. 50 years later his 70 series, and my fathers 200 series still had/have the same flaw.

Our self leveling vehicles don't have that issue, and the manual says "don't do that". So while what you have works for you, again the manual says "don't do that".

Frankly my plug in tow hitch looks fragile enough without adding torsion bars to it where the manual says not to. That and seeing you necro and 8 year old thread just popped my valve.

So again, I apologise.

np, i genuinely thought it was cool that he made his own !

I have a mitch hitch, so yeah i have more confidence in it than the factory cast receiver. though i have a feeling all opposing forces created by the bars at the hitch end are combined/resolved within the bar mounting plate and tongue itself before the receiver.

one good thing a WDH might be good for with the factory one though even without the bars is to raise your towball height up for off road vans, as you can flip the adjustment section and it has about 6 holes up and down you can raise or lower the ball point with.


Maybe just maybe it's the standard and might I add very average factory design hitch on the D3 and 4 that is the issue with WDH's and why LR recommends not to use them and they may work fine with an aftermarket hitch
personally I'm not going to get a WDH because as stated previously and after towing 1000s of km the D4 doesn't need one other than the rear axle numbers and that's a legality issue not a performance or safety issue
bring on the GVM upgrade thread !!!

see here for inspiration Range Rover Sport GVM Upgrade Question (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l320-range-rover-sport/301451-range-rover-sport-gvm-upgrade-question.html)

[Redback]

The key to a stable trailer is weight distribution, and suspension, not a WDH or trailer assist or whatever gadget out there, just load your bloody trailer/van properly, and if you are a coiled vehicle, good shocks and springs that are setup for towing, it's not rocket science[bighmmm]

[haydent]

For sure, and this is always the best/preferred option. Ive spent much more time testing the way weight in different areas affects my ball weight, and how I can reduce this as much as possible while still staying within recommended guidelines.

I only trialled out a WDH for something to do, as they are so cheap on marketplace ($150)

I have a cheap digital tow ball weight scale off ebay, which helps me with this, (i tried the analogue spring based one and they are inaccurate), i have tested the accuracy of the ball scale, with better 4 pad car scales, which i have access to when needed.

The most recent test I did was to take everything out of my caravan tunnel storage, and see how much effect that has on my ball weight.

Generally speaking most caravans have the bulk of their storage at the front end, which i guess is a bit more fool proof for people not weighing things. as at worse you will only make a heavy ball weight when carrying too much, compared with if they offered rear storage as well, and this was overloaded, and you made the ball weight dangerously too light.

That being said I got the recent inspiration to rethink my tunnel storage, after seeing some vans with quite large storage boxes added to their rear. And for my situation (and most landrovers) this would really help to be able to balance my ball weight (and thus limited rear axle load) by moving things from the tunnel to the rear.

I took everything out, measuring the ball weight before and after, you dont think you have much but it all adds up, and on most vans theres no where else to put it:
-3x Folding Chairs and a Aluminium Folding Table
-Tool bags
-A plastic storage crate with some bits and pieces, van spares
-A gas 2 burner stove
-Cast camp oven
-Folding Aluminium Clothes line
-2x awning antiflap struts
-Ground mesh covering

Ball weight before: 270kg
After: 230kg
Rear axle reduction: appx 56kg (x1.4)

So I wouldnt want to put all this in the rear as it would reduce the ball weight even more (too much) and the new storage box on the back will also reduce the ball weight.

So it encouraging to see there are options to significantly alleviate rear axle load, though i would only recommend rear storage modification options with ball weight monitoring.

Another option is extra spare tyres/jerry cans, though with this you are adding more weight as well rather than just redistributing it, so can negatively affect your ball weight percentage.

This is the scale i carry $170
194235
This is an example of custom rear storage available (though ive also seen people just bolt a standard storage box on the rear bar)
194236
194237

[Redback]

For sure, and this is always the best/preferred option. Ive spent much more time testing the way weight in different areas affects my ball weight, and how I can reduce this as much as possible while still staying within recommended guidelines.

I only trialled out a WDH for something to do, as they are so cheap on marketplace ($150)

I have a cheap digital tow ball weight scale off ebay, which helps me with this, (i tried the analogue spring based one and they are inaccurate), i have tested the accuracy of the ball scale, with better 4 pad car scales, which i have access to when needed.

The most recent test I did was to take everything out of my caravan tunnel storage, and see how much effect that has on my ball weight.

Generally speaking most caravans have the bulk of their storage at the front end, which i guess is a bit more fool proof for people not weighing things. as at worse you will only make a heavy ball weight when carrying too much, compared with if they offered rear storage as well, and this was overloaded, and you made the ball weight dangerously too light.

That being said I got the recent inspiration to rethink my tunnel storage, after seeing some vans with quite large storage boxes added to their rear. And for my situation (and most landrovers) this would really help to be able to balance my ball weight (and thus limited rear axle load) by moving things from the tunnel to the rear.

I took everything out, measuring the ball weight before and after, you dont think you have much but it all adds up, and on most vans theres no where else to put it:
-3x Folding Chairs and a Aluminium Folding Table
-Tool bags
-A plastic storage crate with some bits and pieces, van spares
-A gas 2 burner stove
-Cast camp oven
-Folding Aluminium Clothes line
-2x awning antiflap struts
-Ground mesh covering

Ball weight before: 270kg
After: 230kg
Rear axle reduction: appx 56kg (x1.4)

So I wouldnt want to put all this in the rear as it would reduce the ball weight even more (too much) and the new storage box on the back will also reduce the ball weight.

So it encouraging to see there are options to significantly alleviate rear axle load, though i would only recommend rear storage modification options with ball weight monitoring.

Another option is extra spare tyres/jerry cans, though with this you are adding more weight as well rather than just redistributing it, so can negatively affect your ball weight percentage.

This is the scale i carry $170
194235
This is an example of custom rear storage available (though ive also seen people just bolt a standard storage box on the rear bar)
194236
194237

I don't do a lot of towing anymore, the odd trip to the tip(don't have roadside garbage collection) but I still setup my trailers properly

This was our setup for our Kimberley trip, 22,700ks.
The hitch was setup to make the height correct, making it level.

The camper was custom built with a longer drawer bar for better stability, fully loaded with 3 jerrycans on the front, 1.4tonne and 75kg ball weight, and pretty much the same when connected to our previous touring rig, 2001 Discovery 2, this camper towed like a dream.

That scale is brilliant, wish I'd had that for testing the ball weight, beats using bathroom scales[bighmmm]

Those storage boxes look brilliant, and great outcome with reducing weight over the ball:thumbsup:
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