Have I got my weight sums right?

[GregMilner]

Getting ready to head for the Kimberley, I weighed the car yesterday. Came in at 3,040kg, full of fuel (170-odd litres), partially loaded, including the bride and me.
The camper trailer nose weight is 220kg.
By my reckoning, with GVM of 3240kg, and 70kg of the trailer nose weight transferred to the car, I’ve got another 130kg of payload left before I’m overweight.
Am I correct?
Suggestions akin to strapping the bride to the top of the trailer may not be appreciated by the bride. (But yes, it would give me an extra 60kg of payload...)

[Graeme]

Hardly worth the flack to allow only another 60kg in the car.

[Blknight.aus]

Getting ready to head for the Kimberley, I weighed the car yesterday. Came in at 3,040kg, full of fuel (170-odd litres), partially loaded, including the bride and me.
The camper trailer nose weight is 220kg.
By my reckoning, with GVM of 3240kg, and 70kg of the trailer nose weight transferred to the car, I’ve got another 130kg of payload left before I’m overweight.
Am I correct?
Suggestions akin to strapping the bride to the top of the trailer may not be appreciated by the bride. (But yes, it would give me an extra 60kg of payload...)

did you weigh with the camper attached? if not.

basic version

3040 + 220 =3260.

more realistic version (and its approximate)... you need the axle weights but for the purpose of demonstrating I'll assume that 3040 is 50/50 so each axle has 1520 on it.

I'll say that the distance from the rear axle to the tow bar is 1/3 the distance of the front axle to the rear axle.

if you put 20Kg on the back of the towball you then have to add the same weight again (the balance mass) to the rear axle and take an amount off of the front axle at the rate of (distance to rear axle from towball)/(distance from towball to front axle)X weight on towball which gives us 1 unit / 4 units in this example 1/4 of 20 is 4..

so you go 1520 +20 (for the towball weight) then + 20 (for the balance mass) so the rear axle now has 1560 on it

now for the front axle you get to take some weight off....

1520 - (20 (towball weight)/4(reaction load number) = 1515.

It helps if you think of it as a see saw. The rear axle is the balance point and the towball is the fat kid on the short side and the front axle is the skinny kid on the long side.

Its a bit discombobulating at first when you look at the math for a Car but the very basic version works nearly enough and isnt as simple as take the same amount off of the front axle as you add to the rear because 1. Suspension. 2. the levers are different lengths 3. the mass distribution along the lever isnt simple.

when you weigh bridge the vehicle you're numbers will be slightly different but as a more accurate rough workout than simple Tare + towball method if you follow it and set yourself up so that your axle weghts are close to even (or the front axle is on limit and the rear which is usually a higher load limit is then near enough to the same) then youre in for a good towing experience. It also stops the typical cruiser towing a badly loaded van with the front wheels barely touching look.

[dirvine]

Just wondering how a trailer nose weight of 220kg comes down to 70kg when transferred to the car? Where does the difference go? AFAIK ball weight gets transferred to the car. That is one of the reasons these 3.5T towing utes run into problems. They can tow as long as no one is in the ute!

[GregMilner]

Just wondering how a trailer nose weight of 220kg comes down to 70kg when transferred to the car? Where does the difference go? AFAIK ball weight gets transferred to the car. That is one of the reasons these 3.5T towing utes run into problems. They can tow as long as no one is in the ute!

In most cars that would be correct, but according the the Disco manual, as long as you don’t exceed max axle weight, you can load up to 150kg on the towball without affecting payload, anything above that is subtracted from payload, so by my reckoning, 220kg - 150kg = 70kg less payload in the car. That’s how I’ve read it in any case.

[GregMilner]

Having adjusted some figures on the spreadsheet, it looks like I'm right on the limit.
The bride is definitely getting strapped to the boat loader on the trailer. 150090150090

See attached.

[GregMilner]

did you weigh with the camper attached? if not.

basic version

3040 + 220 =3260.

more realistic version (and its approximate)... you need the axle weights but for the purpose of demonstrating I'll assume that 3040 is 50/50 so each axle has 1520 on it.

I'll say that the distance from the rear axle to the tow bar is 1/3 the distance of the front axle to the rear axle.

if you put 20Kg on the back of the towball you then have to add the same weight again (the balance mass) to the rear axle and take an amount off of the front axle at the rate of (distance to rear axle from towball)/(distance from towball to front axle)X weight on towball which gives us 1 unit / 4 units in this example 1/4 of 20 is 4..

so you go 1520 +20 (for the towball weight) then + 20 (for the balance mass) so the rear axle now has 1560 on it

now for the front axle you get to take some weight off....

1520 - (20 (towball weight)/4(reaction load number) = 1515.

It helps if you think of it as a see saw. The rear axle is the balance point and the towball is the fat kid on the short side and the front axle is the skinny kid on the long side.

Its a bit discombobulating at first when you look at the math for a Car but the very basic version works nearly enough and isnt as simple as take the same amount off of the front axle as you add to the rear because 1. Suspension. 2. the levers are different lengths 3. the mass distribution along the lever isnt simple.

when you weigh bridge the vehicle you're numbers will be slightly different but as a more accurate rough workout than simple Tare + towball method if you follow it and set yourself up so that your axle weghts are close to even (or the front axle is on limit and the rear which is usually a higher load limit is then near enough to the same) then youre in for a good towing experience. It also stops the typical cruiser towing a badly loaded van with the front wheels barely touching look.

Strewth Dave. Not sure my high school maths is up to that. But incredibly grateful you tried to explain it to me. And that you used a word like discombobulating. Good word, that.

[Odysseyman]

Here’s what I believe is the calculation for how towball weight affects load on the rear axle.

Ball weight rear axle:
To calculate the actual ball weight affect on the rear axle; multiply the ball weight by the (vehicle wheelbase plus the rear overhang) and then divide the answer by the wheelbase.
e.g. Ford Ranger (sorry, the figures are for my old car) :-
w/b 3m overhang 1.4m
Total 4.4
Towball 170kg approx
170x4.4 =748/3=250kg approx

you could then subtract the 150kg that LR say can be added before affecting the payload.

Regardless of what the weight is it must still be included in the GVM.

Cheers

David

[dirvine]

In most cars that would be correct, but according the the Disco manual, as long as you don’t exceed max axle weight, you can load up to 150kg on the towball without affecting payload, anything above that is subtracted from payload, so by my reckoning, 220kg - 150kg = 70kg less payload in the car. That’s how I’ve read it in any case.

I really dont understand that. The car has a GVM. You cannot exceed that. And the car and the van have a GCM. and that cannot be exceeded. So the simple fact is add up the car weight, add on the van weight (in total) and then take that figure away from the car GCM. The diff is what you can load up extra in the car. It really is that simple in most cases.

[Blknight.aus]

I really dont understand that. The car has a GVM. You cannot exceed that. And the car and the van have a GCM. and that cannot be exceeded. So the simple fact is add up the car weight, add on the van weight (in total) and then take that figure away from the car GCM. The diff is what you can load up extra in the car. It really is that simple in most cases.

the axle weights combined are more than the GVM. but you dont have to have even axle loads... so...

if your front axle can have 1.5T and your back axle can have 1.5T BUT your GVM is only 2800 you cant max both axles youd be over GVM.

if youve got 1.8T on the back axle and 900KG on the front youre over the rear axle limt.

[IndusD4]

In most cars that would be correct, but according the the Disco manual, as long as you don’t exceed max axle weight, you can load up to 150kg on the towball without affecting payload, anything above that is subtracted from payload, so by my reckoning, 220kg - 150kg = 70kg less payload in the car. That’s how I’ve read it in any case.

Yes you are 100% correct that the first 150kg of the nose weight doesn't need to be deducted from the GVM on s D3/D4. Only the weight over 150kg, which in your case is 70kg.

Ron

PS this is not the case with a D5 where all nose weight needs to be taken into account.

[GregMilner]

Just took the D4 over the weighbridge again, this time to measure weight over the rear wheels only. Came in at 1,660kg, so with gross vehicle weight currently at 3,040kg including me and the bride and full fuel, fridge, rear drawer and some odds and sods, I'm assuming that means there's 1,380kg over the front wheels (1450kg max allowable)

In any case, gives me some comfort, knowing max allowed rear axle weight of 1,885kg gives me about 225kg wriggle room at the back end. If I can get the camper trailer nose weight down to 150kg or thereabouts, happy days.

[tapda01]

Just took the D4 over the weighbridge again, this time to measure weight over the rear wheels only. Came in at 1,660kg, so with gross vehicle weight currently at 3,040kg including me and the bride and full fuel, fridge, rear drawer and some odds and sods, I'm assuming that means there's 1,380kg over the front wheels (1450kg max allowable)

In any case, gives me some comfort, knowing max allowed rear axle weight of 1,885kg gives me about 225kg wriggle room at the back end. If I can get the camper trailer nose weight down to 150kg or thereabouts, happy days.
Hi Greg thanks for sharing the thread with me... your spreadsheet is brilliant.... I constructed a similar one to calculate the TBM on my caravan, but nothing as fancy....

I completely disagree with Ron by the way... I can see how one can misinterpret the wording in the owners manual as it is very poorly written.... my interpretation is that if your Payload has taken you to GVM and you have a van attached, Land Rover are saying that the vans TBM portion of the payload must not exceed 150kgs.... GVM is GVM, it is not GVM plus 150... if it was Land Rover would increase it to 3,390. When one attaches a van the full TBM is spread over the axles just as your spreadsheet shows and the GVM is eaten into by the same amount....

I have updated your spreadsheet for my use to include the sliding scale GVM for the TBMs over 150kgs.... I remain convinced this is correct, but as stated in my post I would love to be proven wrong...

Thanks again and good luck getting your TBM to 150...

Cheers

David

[IndusD4]

Sorry, my post should have said that any tow ball weight over 150kg should be deducted from the payload, not the GVM. Agreed, GVM is GVM and won't change.

Ron

[tapda01]

Sorry, my post should have said that any tow ball weight over 150kg should be deducted from the payload, not the GVM. Agreed, GVM is GVM and won't change.

Ron

Sorry Ron, I am still not certain we are in agreement.

If your vehicle is at GVW sitting on a weighbridge, then you are at its legal maximum weight and you can legally not add any further payload to it. If you chose to attach a trailer in this situation, your total weight will increase by the TBM of the trailer and you will exceed the GVW by the TBM. Its all very simple and obviously there is no magical reduction in the TBM by 150kgs. I think that very poorly worded sentence in the owners handbook has muddied the waters..

Cheers

David

[GregMilner]

I think the question needs to be asked of an engineer at LRA for a definitive answer: "If the car sits on the weighbridge at GVM of 3240kg, can I then hitch up a trailer with a tow ball mass of 150kg and still be legal?"

It's a yes or no answer.

On another matter, as I said in the original post, we're about to head off on a long mostly highway trip to the Kimberley and back. I run Maxxis Bravo 980 light truck tyres on these trips, given that we're going to be loaded up pretty heavily, am I right in thinking that we'll need about 45psi in the tyres (cold) to handle the weight? (That's on the blacktop obviously, down to maybe 28psi on the Gibb.)

[Odysseyman]

H
I think the question needs to be asked of an engineer at LRA for a definitive answer: "If the car sits on the weighbridge at GVM of 3240kg, can I then hitch up a trailer with a tow ball mass of 150kg and still be legal?"

It's a yes or no answer.

On another matter, as I said in the original post, we're about to head off on a long mostly highway trip to the Kimberley and back. I run Maxxis Bravo 980 light truck tyres on these trips, given that we're going to be loaded up pretty heavily, am I right in thinking that we'll need about 45psi in the tyres (cold) to handle the weight? (That's on the blacktop obviously, down to maybe 28psi on the Gibb.)

hi Greg

those pressures sound about what I’d use. On the car I’d go 40psi front, 45ish psi on the rears and see how they go using the 6psi rule because they are LT tyres. Maybe 28psi front and 30psi rear. Similar principle on the van. I tow an AOR Odyssey (max 1800kg) and I run 35psi on bitumen and 25psi on gravel. NEVER had an issue...

Cheers
David

[IndusD4]

I think the question needs to be asked of an engineer at LRA for a definitive answer: "If the car sits on the weighbridge at GVM of 3240kg, can I then hitch up a trailer with a tow ball mass of 150kg and still be legal?"

It's a yes or no answer.


Yes.


Assuming a 10% ball weight, if you have a trailer that weights 1,500kg and the car 3,240kg. I hook the trailer to the car. You'll need to explain to me why the car is now suddenly 150kg heavier as I don't see why it made the car heavier.

Axle weight on the rear axle of the car would have increased but not the 3,240kg GVM. The trailer didn't lose 150kg of weight either, it still weighs 1,500kg but has less of that 1,500kg weight pushing down on its axle.

If you got stopped by Plod and they wanted to see if you were overweight they would have to check the trailer weight on its own, the car weight on its own and then work out the combined weight to see if you weren't exceeding any of these 3. They can't leave the trailer attached to the car to check the car's weight.


Ron

[DiscoMick]

If the 150kg towball weight is included in the GVW, as it is for my Defender, then you are sweet, I believe.

[DiscoMick]

The manual for my Defender says if the vehicle is at maximum GVW, then only the towball weight over 150kg, up to a maximum of 250kg, must be deducted from the GVW. So if the towball was 250kg then 100kg would have to be deducted from GVW. Assume LR has used the same method for the D4?

[DiscoMick]

This is for a Defender. Does the D4 manual say something similar? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190417/8db7875e141d4645ba6f6ca74173d02b.jpg

[IndusD4]

D4 manual says something similar, effectively you reduce the payload by the excess over 150kg.

Ron

[tapda01]

Yes.


Assuming a 10% ball weight, if you have a trailer that weights 1,500kg and the car 3,240kg. I hook the trailer to the car. You'll need to explain to me why the car is now suddenly 150kg heavier as I don't see why it made the car heavier.

Axle weight on the rear axle of the car would have increased but not the 3,240kg GVM. The trailer didn't lose 150kg of weight either, it still weighs 1,500kg but has less of that 1,500kg weight pushing down on its axle.

If you got stopped by Plod and they wanted to see if you were overweight they would have to check the trailer weight on its own, the car weight on its own and then work out the combined weight to see if you weren't exceeding any of these 3. They can't leave the trailer attached to the car to check the car's weight.


Ron

Im afraid the answer is No Ron... see response from Land Rover that follows:

Dear Mr Tapper,

Thank you for your patience whilst we investigate into your query.

To confirm, our Product team have liaised with our UK Office for assistance with your weight and towing query.

They have advised based on your VIN details provided and Australian Design Rules:

Curb Weight = 2568 kg (that includes 90% fuel but not a Driver)

GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) = 3240 kg

GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) – 350 kg nose load = 2890 kg

2890 – 2568 kg = 322 kg available payload for passengers and cargo providing stipulations below are met.

- Make sure to never exceed the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW), the Gross Train Weight (GTW), or the front and rear axle weights.
- Include the trailer's nose weight when calculating the GVW and the rear axle weight.
- When calculating the vehicle's rear axle weight, the vehicle's payload weights must also be considered. Include the combined weights of all the rear passengers, the loadspace, roof rail, accessory equipment, and the trailer nose weight. The combined weights must never exceed the GVW or the maximum weights for the front and rear axles.
- Make sure that the GVW, the GTW, and the maximum rear axle weight limits are not exceeded when applying the trailer nose weight. If required, reduce the weight of the vehicle's payload.

For your records, it is best recommended to print a copy and leave one in your vehicle's glovebox for future reference.

Assuring you of our best intentions at all times.

Kind regards,


Daniel
Customer Relationship Centre Administrator
Jaguar Land Rover Australia



Cheers

David

[IndusD4]

Seems this doesn’t match what the D4 manual says. Anyway, you now know you need a D5.

Ron

[BobD]

Greg,

I am currently in Victoria after leaving home in late February, now towing the Kimberley Karavan with the much lighter Range Rover Vogue. No more weight issues since there is no bull bar, rear bar or long range tank. The 2013 TDV6 RRV also has the highest payload of all RRV's, due to its lighter weight.

I seem to remember that you and I both had the same issue when we went on the GRR together a couple of years ago. That is why I removed the third row seat, two of the second row seats and the second spare wheel arm of my Kaymar bar. That put me pretty close to legal at that time.

[Bewitched]

Yes.


Assuming a 10% ball weight, if you have a trailer that weights 1,500kg and the car 3,240kg. I hook the trailer to the car. You'll need to explain to me why the car is now suddenly 150kg heavier as I don't see why it made the car heavier.

Axle weight on the rear axle of the car would have increased but not the 3,240kg GVM. The trailer didn't lose 150kg of weight either, it still weighs 1,500kg but has less of that 1,500kg weight pushing down on its axle.

If you got stopped by Plod and they wanted to see if you were overweight they would have to check the trailer weight on its own, the car weight on its own and then work out the combined weight to see if you weren't exceeding any of these 3. They can't leave the trailer attached to the car to check the car's weight.


Ron


Not quite sorry, Ron. If the trailer weighs 1500kg and if that is its ATM, and if it has 10% of the weight on the ball, then 150kg is transferred to the tow vehicle, and 1350kg is occurs via the wheels. The 150kg from the trailer goes to the vehicle via the tow ball.

That 150kg transferred via the tow ball adds to the weight of the vehicle in the Gross Train Weight calculation, as the trailer adds only 1350kg to that figure. You are definitely right that the trailer didn't suddenly lose weight, but part of its weight is transferred to the vehicle rather than going through the wheels.

If the vehicle starts at 3240kg before you attached the trailer in this scenario, and if 3240kg is the allowable GVM for the vehicle, then you are overloading the vehicle (by the aforementioned 150kg transferred from the trailer to the vehicle) when you attach the trailer. You are OK provided you don't attach the trailer.

So in the Gross Train Mass calculation in the above case, you have the vehicle being 3240 + 150 = 3390kg (overloaded) plus the trailer component of the weight being 1350kg = total GTM of 4740kg.

So the only issue in all of this is the tow vehicle weight, if it started at 3240kg before the trailer was hitched up, as it becomes illegal once (and only once) you hitch the trailer because the vehicle is already at the allowable GVM limit before the trailer is added.

That's what all the hullabaloo is about in the Caradvice articles looking at the GVM of the tow vehicle and then looking at what happens to available payload when you bung a trailer on the back.

Hope that helps.

[DiscoMick]

That's not what the manual for my Defender says. It says 150kg TBW is included in the Gross Vehicle Weight. Only any amount above 150kg TBW has to be reduced from the vehicle weight. See below:https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190425/35f612a8d4c4330665295e6870a79a07.jpg

[IndusD4]

Not quite sorry, Ron. If the trailer weighs 1500kg and if that is its ATM, and if it has 10% of the weight on the ball, then 150kg is transferred to the tow vehicle, and 1350kg is occurs via the wheels. The 150kg from the trailer goes to the vehicle via the tow ball.

That 150kg transferred via the tow ball adds to the weight of the vehicle in the Gross Train Weight calculation, as the trailer adds only 1350kg to that figure. You are definitely right that the trailer didn't suddenly lose weight, but part of its weight is transferred to the vehicle rather than going through the wheels.

If the vehicle starts at 3240kg before you attached the trailer in this scenario, and if 3240kg is the allowable GVM for the vehicle, then you are overloading the vehicle (by the aforementioned 150kg transferred from the trailer to the vehicle) when you attach the trailer. You are OK provided you don't attach the trailer.

So in the Gross Train Mass calculation in the above case, you have the vehicle being 3240 + 150 = 3390kg (overloaded) plus the trailer component of the weight being 1350kg = total GTM of 4740kg.

So the only issue in all of this is the tow vehicle weight, if it started at 3240kg before the trailer was hitched up, as it becomes illegal once (and only once) you hitch the trailer because the vehicle is already at the allowable GVM limit before the trailer is added.

That's what all the hullabaloo is about in the Caradvice articles looking at the GVM of the tow vehicle and then looking at what happens to available payload when you bung a trailer on the back.

Hope that helps.

Nothing to be sorry about, happy to be proven wrong. From what you're saying you'd never be able to tow 3,500kg if (going by a 10% tow ball weight) you need to transfer 350kg of weight to the car.

Ron

[IndusD4]

I'll concede defeat on this :)

But would still like to know how you'd ever get to a GCW of 6740kg (assuming GVM of 3240kg) if you need to take your tow ball weight from the trailer and have this to be included in the GVM. As I see it, it would never be possible.

Ron

[Bewitched]

I'll concede defeat on this :)

But would still like to know how you'd ever get to a GCW of 6740kg (assuming GVM of 3240kg) if you need to take your tow ball weight from the trailer and have this to be included in the GVM. As I see it, it would never be possible.

Ron

I think that are very correct Ron. The thing to remember is the limit figures quoted are exactly that - upper limits allowed as provided by the manufacturer. For the vehicle alone, it's 3240kg. GCM limit is the absolute maximum that can be hitched together. A tow vehicle loaded to the GVM limit with a trailer attached with zero ball load can have the trailer at 3500kg, to meet the GCM limit of 6740kg. Nobody would tow like that as it would very likely be totally unstable, but that would be the vehicle loaded to its limits in every respect - GVM, ATM and GCM (all at max allowable).

It is pretty obvious that Land Rover have added the 3240kg GVM and the 3500kg trailer max load to determine the GCM limit of 6740kg. No real thought appears to have been provided within that for the impact on both vehicle payload and actual GCM when you start to include the practical necessities of towball weight for stable towing into that mix.

Very misleading.

European ball weight percentages are lower than ours (based on US studies it seems), and may run at the 3% to 6% or so. That means the payload of the vehicle would reduce by 100kg to 150kg (and actual GCM for that combination accordingly). In Europe, this would be considered safe and would be within the LR limits. In Australia, we like to see a higher percentage of the trailer weight on the ball, further reducing the payload in the vehicle to reach GVM and lowering the actual GCM. Published limits in each case remain the same.

I agree the response from Land Rover is inconsistent with the figures provided in their brochures, and does mean it would be near impossible to get to the GCM limit and still tow in a stable and legal manner. Given that we are talking about figures such as 75kg for a driver (is it in included or not) and some allowance for this seemingly mythical 150kg towball weight (is that real or has it, too, now disappeared?).

It would be good to see how Land Rover reconcile this discrepancy, as the numbers I have calculated in this and the other similar thread have been based upon the response that David received from Land Rover.

A difference of 225kg (75kg driver plus 150kg "free" allowance in the GVM) adds up to a significant percentage of the discretionary payload especially after a few accessories have been added to a vehicle like winches, bar work, roof racks and extra spare wheels etc..

[GregMilner]

I remain amazed that the arithmetic surrounding this has never been seriously put to Land Rover. And if it has, where is the definitive answer from the company? Has it been published anywhere?

[DiscoJeffster]

I remain amazed that the arithmetic surrounding this has never been seriously put to Land Rover. And if it has, where is the definitive answer from the company? Has it been published anywhere?

I really want to use a lot of expletives. Seriously. Unless you are so well over which would take immense stupidity, what does it matter? The insurance company won’t be picking up every piece of strewn debris when it rolls to prove it was a weight issue! The police likewise won’t. At best they’ll do rudimentary calcs based on the products. If your rear axle fails from overloading, well good luck claiming. LR don’t pay for much anyhow and it’ll now be out of warranty anyhow. I think too many keyboard warriors need to chill out. There are margins of error built into every product. Chill out, don’t be stupid, do your best to comply with the regs and the limits but Jesus, just have a bloody holiday. Signed, get a life Corp. [emoji8]

[Bewitched]

I remain amazed that the arithmetic surrounding this has never been seriously put to Land Rover. And if it has, where is the definitive answer from the company? Has it been published anywhere?

Not sure about the "definitive" bit, but the exact question was put to LR recently with the response copied in this an another similar thread. The diabolical bit is that the "official" reply from LR is inconsistent with the Owner's manual for the same vehicle, creating a level of confusion. As yet not reconciled.



I really want to use a lot of expletives. Seriously. Unless you are so well over which would take immense stupidity, what does it matter? The insurance company won’t be picking up every piece of strewn debris when it rolls to prove it was a weight issue! The police likewise won’t. At best they’ll do rudimentary calcs based on the products. If your rear axle fails from overloading, well good luck claiming. LR don’t pay for much anyhow and it’ll now be out of warranty anyhow. I think too many keyboard warriors need to chill out. There are margins of error built into every product. Chill out, don’t be stupid, do your best to comply with the regs and the limits but Jesus, just have a bloody holiday. Signed, get a life Corp. [emoji8]

Some fair points. I think the point of the discussion was that some folks would prefer to know for certain than to toss a coin in the air, cross fingers and hope. As it's not rocket science, you'd think that wouldn't be a big deal in this day and age of seemingly unlimited access to information to get the correct answers without confusion or question. That the information is confusing (at best) and inconsistent (at worst) is annoying for many. The number of responses to this thread is kind of evidence of that.

For me, I am unlikely to ever get close to reaching either the GVM or GTM for my vehicle - I'd need a much heavier dirt bike and a heap of fuel cans in the box trailer for that! For others towing their home away from home around around the country, I can see that it may be a concern about nudging close to the legal limit and the subsequent implications from that.

The issue as I see it regarding the inconsistency in information (even that received from LR) is that when you start setting up your vehicle for touring by adding a bunch of accessories, you are biting into what remains of your payload. Add a fridge, some drawers, recovery gear, some basic tools and spares, throw the roof racks on and slip another spare wheel up there, a couple of fuel cans and a gas bottle or two, and you are left with potentially not too much load capacity left. Slip the van onto the hitch and that payload maybe takes another hit.

If all these things are needed for the journey, deciding what to carry in the vehicle and what sits behind it, and just where it should be in the towed device, it is little wonder the question asked gets lots of confused responses. Yes for many if you follow some sound rules of thumb and if the vehicle feels OK with the load and the trailer, sits level etc.., then it may well be all good. If a cursory glance over the spec sheet and a quick calculation sees you nudging the wrong side of the theoretical line, that "bonus 150kg tow ball weight" or "is the 75kg for a driver in or out?" can add up to a fair whack of the discretionary payload, and may be important for some.

I'm not sure it means those folks don't have a life, it may just mean they are keen to keep going with the one they have, and maybe have a caring thought for the lives of others they are passing by on the road traveled.

[GregMilner]

I really want to use a lot of expletives. Seriously. Unless you are so well over which would take immense stupidity, what does it matter? The insurance company won’t be picking up every piece of strewn debris when it rolls to prove it was a weight issue! The police likewise won’t. At best they’ll do rudimentary calcs based on the products. If your rear axle fails from overloading, well good luck claiming. LR don’t pay for much anyhow and it’ll now be out of warranty anyhow. I think too many keyboard warriors need to chill out. There are margins of error built into every product. Chill out, don’t be stupid, do your best to comply with the regs and the limits but Jesus, just have a bloody holiday. Signed, get a life Corp. [emoji8]

Well spoken Jeff. As a GOM (Grumpy Old Man) myself, I always appreciate the perfectly justified expressions of impatience from others of the same ilk. I'm not the least bit anxious about weight issues, I was merely undertaking an academic exercise for my own curiosity. And being a hater of ambiguity, the apparent discrepancy between what LR says and what's in the manual is particularly aggravating.

PS: I'm still under warranty:-)

[DiscoMick]

Our Defender easily passes what's in the manual, including the TBW, with our camper trailer, so I'm not concerned. But, if I was towing a 3.5 tonne 'block of flats' I'd be concerned.