Three Amigos are back!!

[Bohica]

I have had these three pop in with increasing regularity over the summer. I bypassed the connector plug below the brake booster using clips. After a couple of months, they came back. I replaced the clips with soldered heat shrunk joints. The three amigos are still here. I think I will get a new hub. After market at $120 or OEM for $240. These hubs have the ABS sensor included. Being cheapskate, and being time poor, I think of replacing most of the cable all the way back to the SLABS BCU. If that does not work, it will be hub time.
If the ABS sensor is disconnected, will the car move? Does the ABS TC have conniptions?

Thanks

Julian

[sierrafery]

I have had these three pop in with increasing regularity over the summer.
1. I bypassed the connector plug below the brake booster using clips. After a couple of months, they came back. I replaced the clips with soldered heat shrunk joints. The three amigos are still here.

2. I think I will get a new hub. After market at $120 or OEM for $240. These hubs have the ABS sensor included. Being cheapskate, and being time poor, I think of replacing most of the cable all the way back to the SLABS BCU. If that does not work, it will be hub time.

3. If the ABS sensor is disconnected, will the car move? Does the ABS TC have conniptions?

Hi,
1. what do you mean by that ? .... dog my cats if i understand

2. why?, do you have tester which gave you a sensor related fault code? ...if yes read stationary live inputs and if the one with the code gives you the same voltage reading like the other 3 forget about changing any wire cos the circuit and sensor are OK so you can buy the hub without remorse... if you go for a cheap one, when it arrives remove it's sensor, mark a tooth through the hole then count the teeth by turning the bearing all around to make sure it has 60 not 55... the market is full with cheap wrongly made hubs which have 55 teeth on the reluctor ring and fitting one of those will make the vehicle undriveable by erratic TC activity so better rule that out from the beginning

3. By disconnecting a wheel speed sensor the 3(maybe 4) amigos will be on but the brakes will work normally through the hydrauic circuit like on an old non-ABS vehicle cos the electronic management of the ABS is disabled by default

[onebob]

X2 what SF said.... check your fault codes and sensor voltages. You could even remove and inspect the sensors and they being magnetic see if they have attracted any metal filings or swarf, that could cause erratic readings. Metal bits on the sensor could have been in there from assembly (there was a TSB for that very issue) or could indicate a failing hub.
How many kms have your hubs done, do any of the hubs display signs of failure ie bearing movement, noisey or gravelly feel, oil contamination on the rear of your brake rotors??
My D2 has clocked 380,000km and I’ve changed 3 hubs this year. In 9 years I have been visited by the amigo’s twice - both times when gravity overcame adhesion on two particularly demanding descents.

[Bohica]

Hi,
1. what do you mean by that ? .... dog my cats if i understand

2. why?, do you have tester which gave you a sensor related fault code? ...if yes read stationary live inputs and if the one with the code gives you the same voltage reading like the other 3 forget about changing any wire cos the circuit and sensor are OK so you can buy the hub without remorse... if you go for a cheap one, when it arrives remove it's sensor, mark a tooth through the hole then count the teeth by turning the bearing all around to make sure it has 60 not 55... the market is full with cheap wrongly made hubs which have 55 teeth on the reluctor ring and fitting one of those will make the vehicle undriveable by erratic TC activity so better rule that out from the beginning

3. By disconnecting a wheel speed sensor the 3(maybe 4) amigos will be on but the brakes will work normally through the hydrauic circuit like on an old non-ABS vehicle cos the electronic management of the ABS is disabled by default


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The ABS sensor terminates in a 'multiplug' on the inner wing valance. Page 974 in RAVE.

I have Nanocom, I'll check the voltage readings. I am inclined, if needed to buy the OEM hub.

Thanks for the information.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

OMG!! tell me you didnt actually use those things??

I blame FB for stuff like this... :bat:

[Bohica]

Yes I did use those things. Purely as a diagnostic. [bigrolf] The car has 338K I have had it from 260K. As far as I know the hubs have not been changed.
The Nanocom input SENS V read 2.19 for all sensors. All the other inputs are the same or very close. I am up for a new hub. Now I know what to do to evict these interlopers. I will need a big torque wrench or a pipe to fit over the other one. Math time!!
I think an OEM one as that should have the correct number of teeth.
Thanks again for the info.

Julian

[DeanoH]

OMG!! tell me you didnt actually use those things??

I blame FB for stuff like this... :bat:

X2

Like purchasing a ready made dry joint. :(

Deano :)

[onebob]

150561
Here’s the setup I use to torque hub bearings. A 3/4inch drive breaker bar with short drive extension, D2 jack, a step ladder, and a helper. The red rape on the breaker is 52cm from the nut socket, I weigh 95kg. I can achieve the necessary 490Nm of torque by repeatedly stepping onto the bar at the tape mark until the bar stops moving under my static weight. At the start, and between each step, have your helper position the socket so the bar is at 2 o clock position, place one foot on the bar at the measured position and step off the ladder to transfer your total weight onto the bar using one foot only. This has to be a controlled action - no jumping or bouncing. When the bar stops moving you are done[emoji1417] NB: you will have to calculate the distance from the nut socket based on your weight unless you are 95kg and then you can use mine. [emoji1432]Also beware that using a “cheater” bar on a torque wrench handle with the idea of achieving a multiplier effect will only increase leverage on the drive to reduce the effort required, it does not multiply the torque applied.

[Bohica]

I've ordered a hub from Mario. I just need to get the big torque wrench and a bearing puller.

A great explanation of how to set the torque. I need to stand at 41 cm from the centre of the hub

[sierrafery]

.... I weigh 95kg. I can achieve the necessary 490Nm of torque by repeatedly stepping onto the bar at the tape mark until the bar stops moving under my static weight.
There are all kind of torque mutipliers on the market cheap or expensive which would make the work easyer without needing body weight and much effort ;) i have this type: Torque Multiplier 1500NM/ 2700NM - TORQUE-TECH PRECISION CO., LTD. (http://www.tw-tech.com.tw/products-detail/id/24/title/Torque_Multiplier__1500NM/_2700NM)

[Kaaaiju]

To tighten up my hub nuts I use an Milwaukee high impact M18 gun, can couple of ugga duggas and never had am issue

[onebob]

To tighten up my hub nuts I use an Milwaukee high impact M18 gun, can couple of ugga duggas and never had am issue

That’s tight tight [emoji2] and tight is not the problem, it’s the ones that are not tight enough! they’re the ones that fail prematurely.

[Bohica]

The hub arrived today. Order went in yesterday. A big thankyou to Mario and Heather.
I now need a socket, the 32 mm is loose and sloppy, the 30mm does not fit. www.discovery2.co.uk / Front Wheel Hub / Bearing Assy (http://www.discovery2.co.uk/fronthub.html) used a 1.25 inch AF 6 sided socket. 31mm is 1.22 inches. I'll take the new stake not to a tool shop and see what fits better, I'd prefer to stay metric. And I need a bearing puller. This will be a next weekend job.

[onebob]

The hub arrived today. Order went in yesterday. A big thankyou to Mario and Heather.
I now need a socket, the 32 mm is loose and sloppy, the 30mm does not fit. www.discovery2.co.uk / Front Wheel Hub / Bearing Assy (http://www.discovery2.co.uk/fronthub.html) used a 1.25 inch AF 6 sided socket. 31mm is 1.22 inches. I'll take the new stake not to a tool shop and see what fits better, I'd prefer to stay metric. And I need a bearing puller. This will be a next weekend job.

It should go well for you, if you don't already own or have access to, consider that you might also need a gas torch, a heavy hammer, and cold chisel, and a shop press to push out a seized axle. If you know someone with an air hammer get them in on the job because, barring seized axles, that tool alone can do the job real quick and easy.

good luck...

[Bohica]

I'm changeing the hub tomorrow. The hub is held on with 4 bolts at 100Nm. The axle,or half shaft has a whopping 490Nm, plus loctite 460 plus a stake nut. Why? is the a possibility that the half shaft could move inwards removing the drive from the wheel and maybe damaging the diff? I'm guessing that all this torque is placed on the inner part of the bearing, so that would have to be one solid part.
In case it is not obvious. I ain't no automotive/mechanical engineer.

As for the procedure, why not remove the brake calipers and disc first? In case you need the brakes to hold the hub stationary when undoing 490Nm of torque and Loctite.

Cheers

Julian

[onebob]

Like the the little countersunk screw holding the brake rotor on the hub, Loctite 460 is a production line assembly aid. Neither are essential for maintenance reassembly. In place of the Loctite it’s good practice to apply an Anti seize compound on the axle splines, and all threads, all contact surfaces on all components, and also on the back surface of the hub nut to reduce friction when torquing. You will thank yourself if in the future you have to go back in there..

NB: service your brake caliper slide pins whilst you have the opportunity[emoji6]

[NPG]

I'm changeing the hub tomorrow. The hub is held on with 4 bolts at 100Nm. The axle,or half shaft has a whopping 490Nm, plus loctite 460 plus a stake nut. Why? is the a possibility that the half shaft could move inwards removing the drive from the wheel and maybe damaging the diff? I'm guessing that all this torque is placed on the inner part of the bearing, so that would have to be one solid part.
In case it is not obvious. I ain't no automotive/mechanical engineer.

As for the procedure, why not remove the brake calipers and disc first? In case you need the brakes to hold the hub stationary when undoing 490Nm of torque and Loctite.

Cheers

Julian

The shaft may indeed come out with the hub if you're not careful and it could possibly damage the internal oil seal if we're talking about the front wheel hubs. Use a 2 or 3 legged puller with the centre pin on the drive shaft to hold it in place while the hub is pulled outwards. If the shaft moves, slide it centrally back in into the diff side gear - it is splined so its just a matter of finding the correct position. Break the torque and torque tighten the stake nut with the full weight of the vehicle on the ground - that would be enough to stop the hub from moving. Like said already, a torque multiplier is a game changer here and a cheap alternative to a high output torque wrench. Whatever you do, try not to disturb the front internal oil seal as they are quite awkward to replace. The stake nut torque is crucial here for the longevity of the hub. Make sure it's not less than 490Nm or else the bearing will fail fairly quickly. As for the Loctite 640, this is used to ensure full contact of the shaft splines with the hub bearing and maybe to prevent water ingress. It takes a while to cure so give it 1 or 2 hours before test driving but try and tighten the whole hub assembly within 30 mins after application.

Good luck

[Bohica]

Many thanks to Kaaaiju who offered to help and bring the socket and bearing puller and ended doing most of the work.
After all the stuffing around, I think the next time this issue arises, sooner rather than later, I just replace the hub.

[Kaaaiju]

Many thanks to Kaaaiju who offered to help and bring the socket and bearing puller and ended doing most of the work.
After all the stuffing around, I think the next time this issue arises, sooner rather than later, I just replace the hub.

It, Was easy with the Milwaukee gun and the puller came in handy, was happy to help, had an good time and chat with an fellow landy owner :)

[Geoff86RRC]

I don’t have a 490nm torque wrench and so did the following. I weigh 82kg which multiplied by 2.2 is 180pounds. At two feet this is 360foot pounds. At a factor of 1.35 this is 490nm. Simply adjust the distance for your weight. Mark the bar at the distance and gently step and bring full weight onto marked position. Do not shock load. I note the torque altered from 490nm to 340nm when loctite spec changed From 680 to 640.
Comments or thoughts?

[Geoff86RRC]

I don’t have a 490nm torque wrench and so did the following. I weigh 82kg which multiplied by 2.2 is 180pounds. At two feet this is 360foot pounds. At a factor of 1.35 this is 490nm. Simply adjust the distance for your weight. Mark the bar at the distance and gently step and bring full weight onto marked position. Do not shock load. I note the torque altered from 490nm to 340nm when loctite spec changed From 680 to 640.
Comments or thoughts?

[Mort2]

When I bought my D2 the mechanics where going through the process of rewiring the sensor from hub to appropriate pin under the dash. They had already changed the hub. In my case this didn't resolve the 3 amigos. To top I had to replace the hub again. I bought a 1m breaker bar to remove the old hub (expected to be jumping at the end of that to get the nut off; had also planned to use my weight at appropriate distance for correct torque), sadly I could undo the bolt with a 35cm breaker bar and one arm - the hub looked new from oil seeping through, and don't think this was from the O ring but through failure to use adhesive on the splines - someone noted water ingress might be issue too (the oil leak resulted in my current diff issue). If you trust your current wiring back to the panels, you can splice the wire close to the hub and connect it there...its a magnetic feedback type system so doesn't matter which wires you splice together...I replaced the hub with a second hand hub and rod. Had to splice in this way because the original wiring was defunct. (Having said that, some people think that putting the single line back from sensor to panel is right way to go). At the end my 3 amigos was a result of the connection that breaks inside the Wabco unit, it's less than a $30 and 3hr fix unless there's something wrong with the shuttle valve (I'm not sure if that's what you meant by the work around the break booster). There's a thread currently on the go about "shuttle valve", referring to the bypass there...