London buses go hydrogen-powered

[DiscoMick]

London to have world-first hydrogen-powered doubledecker buses

London to have world-first hydrogen-powered doubledecker buses | UK news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/10/london-to-have-world-first-hydrogen-powered-doubledecker-buses?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[101RRS]

So is Canberra - announced this week with a cardboard cut out of the new bowser.

Australia's first public hydrogen refueling station confirmed - ACAPMAg - The voice of downstream petroleum (https://acapmag.com.au/2019/05/australias-first-public-hydrogen-refueling-station-confirmed/)

[NavyDiver]

A plan to consider turning all UK gas for heating and cooking to Hydrogen (https://www.jacobs.com/news/215/a-future-with-hydrogen)

"Heating and cooling U.K. homes accounts for about half of all energy consumption and a third of carbon emissions. And about 80 percent of homes use natural gas (methane) for heating and cooking3. One of the options being explored is to replace methane with hydrogen, as hydrogen releases no carbon dioxide when converted to heat. A U.K.-wide conversion to hydrogen gas could reduce heat emissions by at least 73 percent as well as supporting decarbonisation of transport and localized electrical generation4."

544 pages of study suggesting they are serious (https://www.northerngasnetworks.co.uk/h21-noe/H21-NoE-26Nov18-v1.0.pdf).

"3.0Large scale hydrogen production and storage technologies" in the PDF covers the current technology very well. I think our CSIRO has made the Ammonia Cracking even cheaper and safer than the report (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-08/hydrogen-fuel-breakthrough-csiro-game-changer-export-potential/10082514)

[PhilipA]

Perth Hydrogen Fuel Cell Bus Trial | Eltis (https://www.eltis.org/discover/case-studies/perth-hydrogen-fuel-cell-bus-trial)

I note they carefully say "double decker"

I spoke to the MD of the then BOC about this.
He told me that the trial was the biggest challenge he had ever faced as MD of BOC and that the provision of Hydrogen pure enough for the limited fleet was the greatest challenge.
Apparently most hydrogen is 97% hydrogen and appropriate for industrial purposes, however the buses required 100% pure hydrogen.
He said that the provision of 100% hydrogen on a large scale was very difficult and expensive.(impossible?)
I don't know whether subsequent developments have changed this scenario.

Regards Philip A

[NavyDiver]

One of these with 99% purity and powered by a few solar panel (https://nelhydrogen.com/product/c-range/)s could work here. The poms might not have enough sun shine [biggrin] Wind might work for them



IF below cost a lot less than the estimated "$10,000 per unit," I would happily have it on to my D3 for a 20-30% fuel savings " injecting hydrogen into the air-fuel mixture of a diesel engine can dramatically improve fuel mileage and lower its emissions. HyTech promises a 20 to 30 percent reduction in fuel consumption, 85 percent less particulate matter, and a reduction in nitrogen oxides of 50 to 90 percent. "

Could the Future of Ultra Low Emissions Be...Diesel? (https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/car-technology/a19609371/ultra-low-emissions-diesel-hydrogen/)

This is the company installing them Technology | HyTech Power | Hydrogen Fuel | Energy Technology | Washington (https://www.hytechpower.com/technology)

[DiscoMick]

Hydrogen could be better than electric?

Hydrogen cars could be green vehicle of choice over battery electric cars by 2025 - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-30/hydrogen-cars-could-be-commercial-by-2025/11456626)

[scarry]

Hydrogen could be better than electric?

Hydrogen cars could be green vehicle of choice over battery electric cars by 2025 - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-30/hydrogen-cars-could-be-commercial-by-2025/11456626)

i have always thought hydrogen could be the go.

BMW have been working on them for quite a while.

[Eevo]

what happens if the bus crashes, and the tank ruptures, and there are sparks?

ka-boom!

[scarry]

what happens if the bus crashes, and the tank ruptures, and there are sparks?

ka-boom!

As would happen with any fuel,think LPG.

[Eevo]

As would happen with any fuel,think LPG.


LPG is compressed. is the hydrogen compressed?

[AK83]

what happens if the bus crashes, and the tank ruptures, and there are sparks?

ka-boom!

Would it be any different to spontaneous combustion that some(ie. Tesla) EVs have to contend with.

[Eevo]

Would it be any different to spontaneous combustion that some(ie. Tesla) EVs have to contend with.

we had a firefighting course on EV's last week. summary: let it burn.

[AK83]

we had a firefighting course on EV's last week. summary: let it burn.

[thumbsupbig]

In the not too distant future .. what'd be the summary re burning hydrogen powered vehicles?
(my guess would be something akin to a Pythoneque ... 'run away, run away')
But, be sure to reply back when the summary is in.

[Eevo]

[thumbsupbig]

In the not too distant future .. what'd be the summary re burning hydrogen powered vehicles?
(my guess would be something akin to a Pythoneque ... 'run away, run away')
But, be sure to reply back when the summary is in.

hard part would be recognising a hydrogen powered car

treat it like other flam liq/gas. cool it, isolate it. if it goes bang, change underwear

[Phil B]

From a total emissions pov (including power generation in EV’s )hydrogen must be better?
Anybody know?

[Blknight.aus]

From a total emissions pov (including power generation in EV’s )hydrogen must be better?
Anybody know?

depends on the purity required and how far you want to nest the carbon cycle.

low purity low quantity low pressure hydrogen is easy. solar panel step up inverter a couple of buckets of sea water and you're away. but how far do go, does the cost of making the panel, and the buckets come in here or the power for the pumps to compress the Hydrogen to a workable pressure and volume count?

stepping up the volume and pressure is scaleable but its a log scale (watch your air compressor gauge needle you'll soon work out why) purity depends on how you want to do it.

my opening guess is...

the total carbon foot print intiallly will be against the hydrogen BUT as more systems come on line and we start making stuff with stuff that was powered by hydrogen powered generation... it will come down rapidly espescially as the end result is (in the perfect world) pure water...

I can easily foresee the end result where the emission of your hydrogen powered car are captured in a tank and of a night/day you plug into a "charging station" where your pure water is whisked away and high pressure liquid Hydrogen is pumped into your supply tank.

once thats happening it wont be long before the rednecks who like camping will begin to frankenstein recouperation units that drain the water out of the emissions tank and then slowly split it out and re-pressurise it back into the supply tank.

and then car makers will begin to include that functionality into the vehicles in a refined form that will probably take advantage of regen braking.

[101RRS]

So is Canberra - announced this week with a cardboard cut out of the new bowser.

Australia's first public hydrogen refueling station confirmed - ACAPMAg - The voice of downstream petroleum (https://acapmag.com.au/2019/05/australias-first-public-hydrogen-refueling-station-confirmed/)

Not only is Canberra going to have cardboard cutout hydrogen fuel bowsers but we are going to electric fire engines.

ACT fire service charges toward an electric future | The Canberra Times (https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6353227/act-fire-service-charges-toward-an-electric-future/)

Only take 2 hours to recharge - hope we don't have a fire at the 1 hour mark.

[Kaps]

Perth Hydrogen Fuel Cell Bus Trial | Eltis (https://www.eltis.org/discover/case-studies/perth-hydrogen-fuel-cell-bus-trial)

I note they carefully say "double decker"

I spoke to the MD of the then BOC about this.
He told me that the trial was the biggest challenge he had ever faced as MD of BOC and that the provision of Hydrogen pure enough for the limited fleet was the greatest challenge.
Apparently most hydrogen is 97% hydrogen and appropriate for industrial purposes, however the buses required 100% pure hydrogen.
He said that the provision of 100% hydrogen on a large scale was very difficult and expensive.(impossible?)
I don't know whether subsequent developments have changed this scenario.

Regards Philip A
Where do they get the hydrogen from?
If it is electrolysis, where do they get the electrical energy from?

[Kaps]

what happens if the bus crashes, and the tank ruptures, and there are sparks?

ka-boom!

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgWHbpMVQ1U)

[NavyDiver]

Where do they get the hydrogen from?
If it is electrolysis, where do they get the electrical energy from?

Shell, BP or any of these pending ideas perhaps Hydrogen energy - Australian Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA) (https://arena.gov.au/renewable-energy/hydrogen/)