Banks & Credit Cards

[1950landy]

For quite some time I have been receiving my Credit card account late & last month it came on the Friday the day before it was due to be payed so went to the bank on the Saturday to pay it but they no longer open on Saturdays. So then Monday was a holiday & didn't get payed until Tuesday so over due payment to be payed .
This month the payment is due today & have not received an account as yet , so went to bank this morning & found out with great difficulty how much I had to pay & payed it.
I did some research yesterday & found out under the Credit Card Accountability Disclosure Act 2009 that the account should fall in the same date every month so mine falls on the 4th but going back through the past 12months statements it is due is between the 2nd & the 9th of the month. Also under the act the time between when the statement is processed & due date should be 21 days , my bank is only giving me 10 days so this is why I am receiving the account late.
This has been going on for years & I have been asking my bank why they can't get the statement to me earlier & they have been blaming Aust Post & telling me to go to internet banking or allow them to do a direct debit. How can you trust a bank to just take money out of your account if they cant even give you the correct amount of time to receive & pay your account & we refuse to do internet banking because we have some one 3 times lock up our anti virus late on a Friday night & start looking for pin & passwords & when I have discovered that the anti virus is locked & have taken the computer for repairs I have been told I am lucky we don't do internet banking as they would have cleaned out our bank account by the Monday morning.
I have made an appointment with the bank manager to speak to him about the above & about going back through previous years statements to be reimbursed for over due accounts because the statements have not been received in time .

Our bank has also gone to no tellers there are people there to show you how to use the self service tellers so the line goes out the doors of the bank & it takes 10 times longer to do anything. I said to the girl helping me this is going to put you out of a job & she said no I will be here to help you & I said what will happen when every one knows how to use the machine what will be your job then & she just looked at me & didn't know what to say.

I would say after I have my appointment with the manager I will be closing my account with this bank & finding a bank that gives service to there customer's that is if I can find one.[bigwhistle]

[DiscoMick]

Certainly poor service.
You could ask them to email your statement, so they have no excuse about postal delays.
The statement certainly should be issued on the same day every month.


For quite some time I have been receiving my Credit card account late & last month it came on the Friday the day before it was due to be payed so went to the bank on the Saturday to pay it but they no longer open on Saturdays. So then Monday was a holiday & didn't get payed until Tuesday so over due payment to be payed .
This month the payment is due today & have not received an account as yet , so went to bank this morning & found out with great difficulty how much I had to pay & payed it.
I did some research yesterday & found out under the Credit Card Accountability Disclosure Act 2009 that the account should fall in the same date every month so mine falls on the 4th but going back through the past 12months statements it is due is between the 2nd & the 9th of the month. Also under the act the time between when the statement is processed & due date should be 21 days , my bank is only giving me 10 days so this is why I am receiving the account late.
This has been going on for years & I have been asking my bank why they can't get the statement to me earlier & they have been blaming Aust Post & telling me to go to internet banking or allow them to do a direct debit. How can you trust a bank to just take money out of your account if they cant even give you the correct amount of time to receive & pay your account & we refuse to do internet banking because we have some one 3 times lock up our anti virus late on a Friday night & start looking for pin & passwords & when I have discovered that the anti virus is locked & have taken the computer for repairs I have been told I am lucky we don't do internet banking as they would have cleaned out our bank account by the Monday morning.
I have made an appointment with the bank manager to speak to him about the above & about going back through previous years statements to be reimbursed for over due accounts because the statements have not been received in time .

Our bank has also gone to no tellers there are people there to show you how to use the self service tellers so the line goes out the doors of the bank & it takes 10 times longer to do anything. I said to the girl helping me this is going to put you out of a job & she said no I will be here to help you & I said what will happen when every one knows how to use the machine what will be your job then & she just looked at me & didn't know what to say.

I would say after I have my appointment with the manager I will be closing my account with this bank & finding a bank that gives service to there customer's that is if I can find one.[bigwhistle]

[loanrangie]

In the digital age there is no excuse for not paying on time, your bank app on your phone or email on PC will remind you when a payment is due.

[gavinwibrow]

In the digital age there is no excuse for not paying on time, your bank app on your phone or email on PC will remind you when a payment is due.

That's fine as long as you have been advised by the bank before the due date what the outstanding balance is - hence the conundrum here!

[1950landy]

In the digital age there is no excuse for not paying on time, your bank app on your phone or email on PC will remind you when a payment is due.
This morning they only gave me two choices to do internet banking or let them do a direct debit . If they gave me the correct 21 days between when statement is progressed & due date instead of only giving me 10 days then there would never be a problem because it would arrive before the due date.
They did offer to ring me every month to tell me how much I needed to pay . Can't see that happening.

[trout1105]

If you can log onto Aulro then you can log onto your online banking and top up your credit card before it is due which will solve your problem.
If you know the due date then simply pay a couple of days before that[thumbsupbig]

[Homestar]

In a nutshell, banks are arseholes, pure and simple. I’ve gone to an Internet only bank now because I have no need of a physical bank any more and that’s working out well as their internet banking and app are really easy to use and setup how you want them. If you do need to talk to anyone, their call centre is local and I haven’t had to wait more than a few minutes for a phone call to be answered. Not for everyone, I get that but with no paper stuff coming in the mail and everything in front of me on my phone, iPad or laptop I find I know everything I need to at all times.

[Andrew D]

I would say after I have my appointment with the manager I will be closing my account with this bank & finding a bank that gives service to there customer's that is if I can find one.[bigwhistle]

Everything is online. Everything. I don't have a wallet. One smart phone does everything. One day micro chips under the skin will do all this and still take pictures.

Not sure the bank will be too stressed about your patronage. Your disposition requires a lot of maintenance. I'm sure even the Banks can't believe people want to come in and see them. One generation away and people will be reflecting in disbelief with regards to people visiting banks. Personally, it's the last thing I would ever want to do, massive waste of time. The relationship with my bank is as follows. Don't call me, I'll call you.

Things are moving and changing all the time. Best get on board or otherwise be prepared to get left behind and even more frustrated.

[Ean Austral]

I was with 1 of the big 4 for 40 yrs , home loans, business loans, the more i borrowed the happier they were to waiver things like C/Card yearly fees. When I became debt free , they started charging me to have their C/Card , to which i complained as was never a fee when i owed them money , why should i be paying 1 now. Long story short , my complaints fell on deaf ears so i closed my accounts and sold the shares i had in them as well.

40yrs a loyal customer and not even a question as to why i left. I know the state manager and bumped into him and got talking and when i told him, his answer was the bank was making no money out of me so they had to charge me for the card. I said to him my first loan with that bank was @ 19.6% interest , he just shrugged and said thats how it is these days.

Cheers Ean

[Bigbjorn]

Banking is a service industry. I expect service not do it yourself.

[PhilipA]

One day micro chips under the skin will do all this and still take pictures.
I wonder how?
Bend over and point?
Often a joke in the past before PC.

Regards Philip A

[JDNSW]

In the digital age there is no excuse for not paying on time, your bank app on your phone or email on PC will remind you when a payment is due.

For a start, the OP has already pointed out one of the major reasons for not doing internet banking. And today we have news of another massive data breach! A second reason is that some of us do not have sufficiently reliable internet to be certain of being able to do time critical operations such as paying bills reliably.

And expecting everyone to use their phone for everything assumes both that everyone has a smart phone and is prepared to risk their banking to it, and secondly, that there is universal mobile phone coverage. Neither of these is true.

[Bigbjorn]

Well said, John. Even in Brisbane there are patches of no mobile phone service. Lots of places in rural areas are out of range. Last time I drove to Winton there was no mobile coverage past Darr River until almost in Winton. Friends who farm between Clifton and Leyburn sometimes have to go outdoors and climb a hill to use a cell phone.

[Saitch]

How ironic! I was reading John's comment and my internet dropped out.[biggrin]

It is blowing around 20-30 knots though so, I'm not surprised. Aah, banks and Telstra.

[gromit]

The 'cash economy' is still alive and well.

I couldn't survive without cash, it also means that Big Brother doesn't know what I'm buying & where. Also applies to SWMBO as she might object to a few of the purchases......well most in fact !

I understand why banks want you to go electronic but with the current interest rates you'd be better off keeping it in a box under your bed ! Problem is most employers couldn't handle paying you in cash.


Colin

[Old Farang]

Evidently the Banks have not learnt anything from the Royal Commission into banking!

[DiscoMick]

No, ANZ didn't pass on the whole of today's rate cut either.
You can always do what we did a while back - ditched one of the big four and went to a smaller bank, BOQ. Working well so far.
Internet banking can work if you don't save your password anywhere, except in your head.

[1950landy]

We would not have to have a Banking Royal Commission if the banks could be trusted with your money.,that is why I will not let them do direct debit. I allowed my telcodo that once & they started taking money out some times twice a month untill I caught them & asked for the money back.

[Meccles]

I went to bank recently first time in ages I have an account but no card so didn’t think I could use ATM ( but I could) everyone lining up to use the one and only teller was elderly. What more to say once we’re gone it will be all online. And - online banks I’m now using are way better than my big 4 account

[DiscoMick]

Westpac only cut by 0.2 and pocketed the other 0.05, following ANZ cutting by 0.18. This is despite the cost to banks raising money having fallen.
The American banks caused the GFC and our major four see no better.
Go to a smaller bank for a better deal. There are plenty out there. When we last refinanced through a broker we compared 20 and chose BOQ.

[Andrew D]

Bend over and point?

If that's the orifice you look through then maybe. Otherwise it will be most peoples eyes.

[1950landy]

No, ANZ didn't pass on the whole of today's rate cut either.
You can always do what we did a while back - ditched one of the big four and went to a smaller bank, BOQ. Working well so far.
Internet banking can work if you don't save your password anywhere, except in your head.
I have accounts with two of the big 4 banks & also one with the BOQ that I use for my car money , it was good to start with but then stopped opening on Saturday & that is usually when I want to access my money but with the account that pays interest you can't get money out of teller machine so need to go into the bank to get cash.[bighmmm] but so far has worked well enough & there has not been any major problems.

[trout1105]

We are living in the 21st centuary guys and "Service" as we know it is long dead and gone, It is what it is.
The ONLY way to to keep an accurate tab on your bank accounts is online these days and relying on snail mail to get your bills delivered on time so that you can pay them without getting a default notice/charge is a pipe dream.
I have been using online banking for decades now and i havent lost a cent neither have i had to pay a fee for a late payment either.
Get with the programme guys and save yourself a few quid by using the online services the banks provide, No more driving into the bank and waiting in a que to get served either[thumbsupbig]

[1950landy]

We are living in the 21st centuary guys and "Service" as we know it is long dead and gone, It is what it is.
The ONLY way to to keep an accurate tab on your bank accounts is online these days and relying on snail mail to get your bills delivered on time so that you can pay them without getting a default notice/charge is a pipe dream.
I have been using online banking for decades now and i havent lost a cent neither have i had to pay a fee for a late payment either.
Get with the programme guys and save yourself a few quid by using the online services the banks provide, No more driving into the bank and waiting in a que to get served either[thumbsupbig]
But I am happy with snail mail & if the bank gave me the correct amount of tine between when they process the statement & the due date which by law set by the government is 21days & not 10 days or less with the due date ranging from the 2nd to the 9th of the month were the due date should be the 4th then there would be no problem with snail mail. I would say you have been lucky so far & not had an attack on your computer . I buy good quality anti virus programs but they still manage to get in & switch off the anti virus & lock it so it can not be switched on again, always do it late Friday night then start searching

[Eevo]

I buy good quality anti virus programs
which one?

[DiscoMick]

But I am happy with snail mail & if the bank gave me the correct amount of tine between when they process the statement & the due date which by law set by the government is 21days & not 10 days or less with the due date ranging from the 2nd to the 9th of the month were the due date should be the 4th then there would be no problem with snail mail. I would say you have been lucky so far & not had an attack on your computer . I buy good quality anti virus programs but they still manage to get in & switch off the anti virus & lock it so it can not be switched on again, always do it late Friday night then start searchingDon't save your passwords on your computer or phone and you should be OK with online banking.

[manic]

Everything is online. Everything. I don't have a wallet. One smart phone does everything. One day micro chips under the skin will do all this and still take pictures.

Not sure the bank will be too stressed about your patronage. Your disposition requires a lot of maintenance. I'm sure even the Banks can't believe people want to come in and see them. One generation away and people will be reflecting in disbelief with regards to people visiting banks. Personally, it's the last thing I would ever want to do, massive waste of time. The relationship with my bank is as follows. Don't call me, I'll call you.

Things are moving and changing all the time. Best get on board or otherwise be prepared to get left behind and even more frustrated.

If you need a device to spend your bank balance that is durable, easily replaced and does not run out of power - why choose your phone?

I travel with a phone, a card and at least 50 in cash. Out and about with just my phone for payments would be foolish.

If you want your money out of the banks pockets and back into yours for what ever reason - you can demand it in cash by visiting your bank. This is an option worth protecting.

Digital cash could replace paper cash - but dropping 'offline cash' altogether should be met with solid resistance.

A communications chip under your skin is worth less than money in your hand. Plus, its a stupid idea.

For the sake of future generations, try not to be so easily led. You do not have to jump on board, or fear being left behind. If someone tries to stick their chip under your skin - think for a second, then tell em to **** off.

[Eevo]

hard to pay strippers in digital cash

[Bigbjorn]

hard to pay strippers in digital cash

A good and very wealthy mate has a bundle of rental properties. He says the way to get tradespeople to turn up and do the jobs is to tell them he will pay in folding as soon as they finish.

[Eevo]

A good and very wealthy mate has a bundle of rental properties. He says the way to get tradespeople to turn up and do the jobs is to tell them he will pay in folding as soon as they finish.


in adel, its impossible to get a tradie to turn up otherwise, quite literally, unless you say in the first phone call your paying cash, they are booked out. offer cash and suddenly they have an opening.

[Andrew D]

I travel with a phone, a card and at least 50 in cash. Out and about with just my phone for payments would be foolish. ha ha, I like living on the edge. Seriously how far do you think I'm from civilisation in Sydney.


Digital cash could replace paper cash - but dropping 'offline cash' altogether should be met with solid resistance. Good luck to the resistance I say. Time will be the determining factor. Not if, just when.


A communications chip under your skin is worth less than money in your hand. Plus, its a stupid idea. It will evolve in time that's the reality of the situation.


For the sake of future generations, try not to be so easily led. You do not have to jump on board, or fear being left behind. If someone tries to stick their chip under your skin - think for a second, then tell em to **** off.

It's not a case of being easily led, more about life choices and not being ignorant or close minded. Do you know about driverless cars?

If you use a smart phone then you are as good as cooked with regards to privacy. If you have a Facebook account then you are char grilled with extra char.

[JDNSW]

Yes, I know about driverless cars - and in my view they are a lot further away that some think, probably twenty years at least. Episodes like the Boeing MCAS can hardly be giving regulators much confidence, and legal issues will keep them off most roads long after they become reasonably practical.

I suspect the cashless economy is a bit like the paperless office - more in theory than reality. And then I think of the predictions when TV was introduced in 1956 that movie theatres would soon be a thing of the past - been to any movies lately? Maybe you haven't but there are still a lot of theatres about.

Or how e-books were going to doom the publishing and bookselling industry. Sales of real books are increasing, not decreasing, and although a lot of bookshops are in trouble, this is because of on-line selling of real books, not e-books.

[Andrew D]

It's only a matter of time.

Music cassette v. Spotify, iTunes etc

Video (VHS) v. Apple TV etc (Video Ezy)

Fax v. email.

If not already, cars will have black boxes to shed light on accidents. This will come before driverless cars.

[manic]

ha ha, I like living on the edge. Seriously how far do you think I'm from civilisation in Sydney.

Good luck to the resistance I say. Time will be the determining factor. Not if, just when.

It will evolve in time that's the reality of the situation.



It's not a case of being easily led, more about life choices and not being ignorant or close minded. Do you know about driverless cars?

If you use a smart phone then you are as good as cooked with regards to privacy. If you have a Facebook account then you are char grilled with extra char.

There are smart ways to use a "smart" phone.

You say: not if, just when.

I say: great, but how, and why?

Driverless cars are todays hype. I suspect that when the tech really takes hold and the novelty passes we will be left with a swarm of characterless taxis. A billed per month taxi subsciption service provided by a small group of providers. Thats a **** future for anyone hoping to roar around driving their own flying car!

It is not a bad thing to be enthusiastic about new tech, but what worries me is that some people see unstoppable progress designed to profit humanity, when really they are looking at simple information technology designed to profit the provider.

You crave convenience, businesses crave your dependence. Withoutout cash you will be entirely at the banks mercy day to day. Completely dependant.

If you go to a shop that doesn't take cash, be sure to tell them you disaprove.

If you think you are powerless to influence the future, give yourself some credit. Ignorant people think they do not have a choice.

Andrew, if you are at the grimey end of Sydney in the early hours of the morning and your phone goes dark - you will feel retarded. Be a rebel, take some cash - whilst you still can!

[DiscoMick]

I realised today that it's been at least two months since I had any actual cash in my wallet, and I haven't needed cash either.

[V8Ian]

I realised today that it's been at least two months since I had any actual cash in my wallet, and I haven't needed cash either.
Yeah Mike, there's a lot of married blokes on the forum. You're not Robinson Crusoe. [bighmmm]

[DiscoMick]

Ha, I can't remember the last time I scored any cash from my wife.

[DiscoClax]

Yeah Mike, there's a lot of married blokes on the forum. You're not Robinson Crusoe. [bighmmm]Try divorced and then remarried. With kids... Actually, no, don't... [emoji14]

[Bigbjorn]

I realised today that it's been at least two months since I had any actual cash in my wallet, and I haven't needed cash either.

So you are very careful with your brass.

[DiscoMick]

EFTPOS is everywhere, even at markets.

[Homestar]

I always have cash on me - at least $50. Lots of places either won't let you use eftpos for purchases under $10 or slug you a fee to do so. And there are still HEAPS of places that don't accept eftpos - cash only - most bakeries, lots of cafes and similar are 100% cash still. Then there's swap meets and markets - no eftpos to be seen. We are many decades away from being cashless. You only need to drive 1/2 hour out of the city to see this.

[PhilipA]

Funny, I am an old codger but I use my tap phone all the time. I have never had a problem with someone sneaking up and recording my NFC . I went a bit paranoid last time in Bali and bought scramblers for our wallets but swimming fixed mine. In Bali you never use NFC as they do not have it. You just make sure your card is never out of your sight.

I haven't been to a bank for years as I do all my banking on the internet.

I have been dudded three times in the last 10 years on my credit card .

AFAIK and Falcon knows the first was a telephone exchange intercept in Thailand and the second was a fake website interspersed between me and AFAIR Paddocks in the UK. The third was undetermined by the bank but a nightwatchman service in Sydney billed me for hundreds. Probably a skim by a disgruntled shop employee.

One thing I learned. Never use a debit card overseas. Debit money is yours Credit money is the bank's. I was amused when the MD of one of the websites for recommending the best deal on health insurance or whatever got caught in Africa and lost all the money in her debit account. Bank didn't care.
Oh I always use Paypal when available as I have found them good in supporting during disputes. I know Mario hates this part.
I find that I am always scrambling for $3 or $4 to pay for tennis as I tap nearly all the time. I still carry $50 for unexpected issues but it usually lasts a month or until my wife raids my wallet.

Regards Philip A

[trout1105]

Cash will always be King because it is a great barganing tool[thumbsupbig]
There are also heaps of places in Australia that don't have EFTPOS or they charge a fee to use it so it Always pays to have a few quid in cash on you wherever you go.
There is also the odd occasion where the EFTPOS isn't working which isn't exactly a rarity.
I don't like the phone "Tap" idea But I have No problems using my card to buy/pay for stuff and internet banking is FAR more convenient than driving down to the bank then hunting for a parking spot only to wait in a que to make a transaction/payment, Personally I much prefer to simply use a few mouse strokes from the comfort of my office at home or from my phone pretty much Anywhere in Australia.

[Old Farang]

No cash? No problem!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqoNHW6sW-c

[Andrew D]

There are smart ways to use a "smart" phone. There are equally as many smarter people writing apps to out smart "smart" users.



I say: great, but how, and why? Think electricity, penicillin and apply to your questions


If you go to a shop that doesn't take cash, be sure to tell them you disaprove. No I won't. It will be unique and I will be somewhat happy that the shop would be declaring it's portion of tax. Miracle actually to the point it's unbelievable.


If you are at the grimey end of Sydney in the early hours of the morning and your phone goes dark - you will feel retarded. Be a rebel, take some cash - whilst you still can! Why retarded. Sounds like an adventure to me. No phone or cash. Assuming I'm not allowed a smart watch as well for the challenge. I will assume I still have my house keys though. (where's the grimey part of Sydney, I haven't been here long).

[Bigbjorn]

"(where's the grimey part of Sydney, I haven't been here long)."


It is the part between Kiama and Gosford.

[PhilipA]

Those is fightin words!

Should be Ettalong in the North as you could hardly say that heaven on Earth Avoca Beach with its 4mill oceanfront houses is grimy, or Macmasters or Copa.
Regards Philip A

[manic]

There are equally as many smarter people writing apps to out smart "smart" users.


Think electricity, penicillin and apply to your questions

No I won't. It will be unique and I will be somewhat happy that the shop would be declaring it's portion of tax. Miracle actually to the point it's unbelievable.

Why retarded. Sounds like an adventure to me. No phone or cash. Assuming I'm not allowed a smart watch as well for the challenge. I will assume I still have my house keys though. (where's the grimey part of Sydney, I haven't been here long).

I like your sense of adventure.

You carry keys!? Get some smart locks man.

Smarter people out smarting smart phone users are going to have a lot of fun.

When you cannot exchange money without a third party processor and compatible device/app - you will get skimmed on every transaction. Enjoy

[350RRC]

It's only a matter of time.

Music cassette v. Spotify, iTunes etc

Video (VHS) v. Apple TV etc (Video Ezy)

Fax v. email.

If not already, cars will have black boxes to shed light on accidents. This will come before driverless cars.

No mention of the resurgence of vinyl records (analogue) as opposed to digital (CD's or MP3', 4's etc).

No mention of the continued growth of sales of printed books alongside 'spoken books'.

One could think that quality of product and many downstream benefits to society have taken a back seat to short term profits.

DL

[Bigbjorn]

I always have cash on me - at least $50. Lots of places either won't let you use eftpos for purchases under $10 or slug you a fee to do so. And there are still HEAPS of places that don't accept eftpos - cash only - most bakeries, lots of cafes and similar are 100% cash still. Then there's swap meets and markets - no eftpos to be seen. We are many decades away from being cashless. You only need to drive 1/2 hour out of the city to see this.

When I was a fraud investigator at Social Security we did some joint projects with the ATO. One of the ATO team supervisors told me that cake & pie shops and hot bread kitchens were one of the last refuges of the black cash society. No cash register, how much product did they make, how much did they throw out? I told him I had come across a local pastrycooks who pocketed every $100 "Grey Nurse" that came over the counter. These never went in the banking.

We got budget for a joint project, a test case, on flea markets to see if a nation wide strike on these would be worthwhile. We picked two busy flea markets that operated on Sunday mornings. Staff recorded every number plate that went in the gate at set-up time. We did this for six Sundays, entered the plates into a data base and selected those who had been there three times out of six. Got the registered owners names and addresses and ran these through the DSS and ATO data bases. Those not reporting income from this endeavour were sent an invitation to visit an office and "please explain". Those on unemployment payments had their allowance cancelled as they were not unemployed but self-employed. All were asked to provide ALL their bank statements and profit and loss statements and balance sheets. We raised many thousands of dollars of overpayments from undeclared income. The ATO were likewise busy busy. Well, the uproar. The flea market operators were into the ears of the politicians. We had destroyed their business as the stall holders had vanished. The vendors screamed and yelled that it was not a business, only a hobby, an interest, just to make a bit of pocket money, and so on and so on. Orders came from on high to cease and desist even though considerable dishonesty was revealed. Official reason being "not cost effective".

[Andrew D]

I like your sense of adventure.

You carry keys!? Get some smart locks man.

Smarter people out smarting smart phone users are going to have a lot of fun.

When you cannot exchange money without a third party processor and compatible device/app - you will get skimmed on every transaction. Enjoy


Not my house to install smart locks but they are good.

The fact you have identified a potential way for skimming already tells me it has been addressed. Still enjoying not carrying cash.

[Andrew D]

No mention of the resurgence of vinyl records (analogue) as opposed to digital (CD's or MP3', 4's etc).

No mention of the continued growth of sales of printed books alongside 'spoken books'.

One could think that quality of product and many downstream benefits to society have taken a back seat to short term profits.

DL


Vinyl? Could go either way but not to the extremes it once was. Vinyls are a novelty. Is It Over? Sales of Vinyl Records Down 9.1% In 2016... (https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2016/09/20/vinyl-records-drop-9-us-2016/)

Books. Same. I think some people want to be distinguished from people with their heads buried in electronics. Fair enough.

[Andrew D]

When I was a fraud investigator at Social Security we did some joint projects with the ATO. One of the ATO team supervisors told me that cake & pie shops and hot bread kitchens were one of the last refuges of the black cash society. No cash register, how much product did they make, how much did they throw out? I told him I had come across a local pastrycooks who pocketed every $100 "Grey Nurse" that came over the counter. These never went in the banking.

We got budget for a joint project, a test case, on flea markets to see if a nation wide strike on these would be worthwhile. We picked two busy flea markets that operated on Sunday mornings. Staff recorded every number plate that went in the gate at set-up time. We did this for six Sundays, entered the plates into a data base and selected those who had been there three times out of six. Got the registered owners names and addresses and ran these through the DSS and ATO data bases. Those not reporting income from this endeavour were sent an invitation to visit an office and "please explain". Those on unemployment payments had their allowance cancelled as they were not unemployed but self-employed. All were asked to provide ALL their bank statements and profit and loss statements and balance sheets. We raised many thousands of dollars of overpayments from undeclared income. The ATO were likewise busy busy. Well, the uproar. The flea market operators were into the ears of the politicians. We had destroyed their business as the stall holders had vanished. The vendors screamed and yelled that it was not a business, only a hobby, an interest, just to make a bit of pocket money, and so on and so on. Orders came from on high to cease and desist even though considerable dishonesty was revealed. Official reason being "not cost effective".

I pay a good portion of tax. I don't mind some people doing a bit of trimming here and there because there are other benefits to society in general. I just don't like it when they pay nil, claim benefits and roll around in AMGs

[manic]

I just don't like it when they pay nil, claim benefits and roll around in AMGs

You refer to the tech giants, amongst others I assume?

It's great that we pay a large amount of tax relative to income and they don't. Well done us.

I tell you what let's invite those private companies to tax us too by getting rid of cash and letting them control movement and access to money entirely. Surely they will put all that well deserved transaction tax into new hugely profitable ventures that will help society in general.

[Andrew D]

You refer to the tech giants, amongst others I assume?

It's great that we pay a large amount of tax relative to income and they don't. Well done us.

I tell you what let's invite those private companies to tax us too by getting rid of cash and letting them control movement and access to money entirely. Surely they will put all that well deserved transaction tax into new hugely profitable ventures that will help society in general.

My comments were in reference and context to Bigbjorn post.

I don't know wtf you are referring to. Time to wind this thread up. As much as new age and electronics make life more enjoyable they can also be a bit of a ball and chain.

[manic]

My comments were in reference and context to Bigbjorn post.

I don't know wtf you are referring to. Time to wind this thread up. As much as new age and electronics make life more enjoyable they can also be a bit of a ball and chain.

You threw up some pros for phasing out cash, I threw up some cons.

Last comment was about big tech companies not paying their fair share of tax (only mentioned because of your tax concerns), and the huge increase in profit they stand to earn, at our expense, if they succeed in defeating cash as a payment option.

IMF warns of giant tech firms' dominance - BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48566024)

You are right we have strayed a bit from initial post. But not too far off topic considering the thread title.

[Andrew D]

No worries, I'm still bowing out.

[350RRC]

Vinyl? Could go either way but not to the extremes it once was. Vinyls are a novelty. Is It Over? Sales of Vinyl Records Down 9.1% In 2016... (https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2016/09/20/vinyl-records-drop-9-us-2016/)

Books. Same. I think some people want to be distinguished from people with their heads buried in electronics. Fair enough.

Analogue vinyl contains several orders of magnitude more information that can be played to one's ears than CD, etc.

That would mean nothing to a techno drone, but when you hear the difference in the sound of Hendrix's early soundscape '1983......' on a good stereo off vinyl, digital just does not cut it.

As far as books go............ say you've read something special, you can hand over the hard copy to someone who you think might enjoy or relish the content.

I did this recently with a certain topical tome and the response was info propagation because it involved human contact, discussion, etc and something that you could just pick up and go back through.

The info only spread via paper books.

DL

[Homestar]

Vinyl? Could go either way but not to the extremes it once was. Vinyls are a novelty. Is It Over? Sales of Vinyl Records Down 9.1% In 2016... (https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2016/09/20/vinyl-records-drop-9-us-2016/)

Books. Same. I think some people want to be distinguished from people with their heads buried in electronics. Fair enough.

Book sales are up year on year since 2016 - not including Ebooks, etc - just physical copies.

As for music, what is the new 'thing' as peak streaming was 2016 and has been declining since. Not sure what the new normal is to be honest. [emoji4]

[1950landy]

My account turned up yesterday 12th June I payed it on the 4th June the day it was due , so off to see the bank manager tomorrow to as why & find out why they are not giving me 21days between when they process it to the due day . I know I can receive it by Email but should not have to if they give me the 21 days the government stipulates as the other bank I deal with dose . You mite call me old fashion ( I still drive a 69 year old Land Rover) but I like to have a paper account other wise I have to print what they send me or rely on my memory to look it up & pay it by when it is due.

[V8Ian]

My account turned up yesterday 12th June I payed it on the 4th June the day it was due , so off to see the bank manager tomorrow to as why & find out why they are not giving me 21days between when they process it to the due day . I know I can receive it by Email but should not have to if they give me the 21 days the government stipulates as the other bank I deal with dose . You mite call me old fashion ( I still drive a 69 year old Land Rover) but I like to have a paper account other wise I have to print what they send me or rely on my memory to look it up & pay it by when it is due.
They want your email address so they can bombard you with advertising.

[AndyG]

Westpac only cut by 0.2 and pocketed the other 0.05, following ANZ cutting by 0.18. This is despite the cost to banks raising money having fallen.
The American banks caused the GFC and our major four see no better.
Go to a smaller bank for a better deal. There are plenty out there. When we last refinanced through a broker we compared 20 and chose BOQ.

Can someone explain the relationship between the Reserve Bank Official Rate , which just dropped by 0.25% and the cost of funds to any Bank which come from diverse sources, deposits, term deposits, bonds, borrowings from overseas (plus hedging) I was thinking SRD's (Statutory Reserve Deposits) but they were abolished in 1988, and were a deposit by the Bank not a loan to the Bank

Please explain! As i have not heard any Politician or Journalist explain it, and they are experts in everything.

[AndyG]

But I am happy with snail mail & if the bank gave me the correct amount of tine between when they process the statement & the due date which by law set by the government is 21days & not 10 days or less with the due date ranging from the 2nd to the 9th of the month were the due date should be the 4th then there would be no problem with snail mail. I would say you have been lucky so far & not had an attack on your computer . I buy good quality anti virus programs but they still manage to get in & switch off the anti virus & lock it so it can not be switched on again, always do it late Friday night then start searching

Do you turn off your Computer when not in use? An old habit i got into with dodgy power

[AndyG]

in adel, its impossible to get a tradie to turn up otherwise, quite literally, unless you say in the first phone call your paying cash, they are booked out. offer cash and suddenly they have an opening.

Same as strippers then [biggrin]

[DiscoMick]

Can someone explain the relationship between the Reserve Bank Official Rate , which just dropped by 0.25% and the cost of funds to any Bank which come from diverse sources, deposits, term deposits, bonds, borrowings from overseas (plus hedging) I was thinking SRD's (Statutory Reserve Deposits) but they were abolished in 1988, and were a deposit by the Bank not a loan to the Bank

Please explain! As i have not heard any Politician or Journalist explain it, and they are experts in everything.The official rate is the rate the banks charge each other on overnight loans.

[Bigbjorn]

Same as strippers then [biggrin]

you have to pay them? you must be as ugly as Eevo[bigwhistle]

[Meccles]

What’s the going rate? 🤪

[Saitch]

What’s the going rate? 🤪

That would depend on how much "Interest" you want to pay.

[DiscoMick]

Definitely off topic.

[Arapiles]

Can someone explain the relationship between the Reserve Bank Official Rate , which just dropped by 0.25% and the cost of funds to any Bank which come from diverse sources, deposits, term deposits, bonds, borrowings from overseas (plus hedging) I was thinking SRD's (Statutory Reserve Deposits) but they were abolished in 1988, and were a deposit by the Bank not a loan to the Bank

Please explain! As i have not heard any Politician or Journalist explain it, and they are experts in everything.

Banks' Funding Costs and Lending Rates | Bulletin – March Quarter 2012 | RBA (https://www.rba.gov.au/publications/bulletin/2012/mar/5.html)

Banks' cost of funds don't simply track the cash rate - it depends on their mix of funding at a particular time. That's what their internal treasury groups manage.

[AndyG]

The official rate is the rate the banks charge each other on overnight loans.
If so, then it of no relevance to the cost of funds for a home loan

[Bigbjorn]

What’s the going rate? 🤪

I would like to ask our Treasurer and Minister for Finance what their government plans to do to get interest rates back up where they should be. Their government has now served two terms and done nothing to get rates up. The Reserve has just reduced the official rate again. For too long now borrowers have been stealing the use of investors money paying negligible interest. My generous bank has just offered me 2.5% on a term deposit. FFS, the real rate of inflation is 5 to 7%. The long term bank deposit rate should be at least 10%. Brokes, bums, and borrowers should be the lawful prey of the investor not the other way around. I don't care if they have to pay high rates on their borrowings. No-one is holding them at gunpoint forcing them to borrow. It is their choice. I want a fair return for the use of my money.

[bblaze]

I would like to ask our Treasurer and Minister for Finance what their government plans to do to get interest rates back up where they should be. Their government has now served two terms and done nothing to get rates up. The Reserve has just reduced the official rate again. For too long now borrowers have been stealing the use of investors money paying negligible interest. My generous bank has just offered me 2.5% on a term deposit. FFS, the real rate of inflation is 5 to 7%. The long term bank deposit rate should be at least 10%. Brokes, bums, and borrowers should be the lawful prey of the investor not the other way around. I don't care if they have to pay high rates on their borrowings. No-one is holding them at gunpoint forcing them to borrow. It is their choice. I want a fair return for the use of my money.

your playing risk minimal investment, increase your risk and increase your return or put itunder your bed
cheers
blaze

[JDNSW]

I would like to ask our Treasurer and Minister for Finance what their government plans to do to get interest rates back up where they should be. Their government has now served two terms and done nothing to get rates up. The Reserve has just reduced the official rate again. For too long now borrowers have been stealing the use of investors money paying negligible interest. My generous bank has just offered me 2.5% on a term deposit. FFS, the real rate of inflation is 5 to 7%. The long term bank deposit rate should be at least 10%. Brokes, bums, and borrowers should be the lawful prey of the investor not the other way around. I don't care if they have to pay high rates on their borrowings. No-one is holding them at gunpoint forcing them to borrow. It is their choice. I want a fair return for the use of my money.

The real rate of inflation is actually under 2% - but of course, that is the economy as a whole, not the inflation seen by any particular individual.

And as to the question of what interest rates "should" be - interest rates have in historical terms been excessive for close to fifty years until recently (since 2008). Over most of recorded history, interest rates on low risk investments have been around 5%, and low risk borrowers (such as for real estate) have had to pay well under 10%. Add in risk - and what the interest rate is should depend on the risk.

[Bigbjorn]

The real rate of inflation is actually under 2% - but of course, that is the economy as a whole, not the inflation seen by any particular individual.

And as to the question of what interest rates "should" be - interest rates have in historical terms been excessive for close to fifty years until recently (since 2008). Over most of recorded history, interest rates on low risk investments have been around 5%, and low risk borrowers (such as for real estate) have had to pay well under 10%. Add in risk - and what the interest rate is should depend on the risk.

John, no-one will convince me that inflation is only the propagandised 2% rate espoused by politicians and bureaucrats. I know how my cost of living has risen year in, year out, and it is more than 2%. Decent interest rates have been achievable throughout most of my life. I am 78. In mid 1970's I had a term deposit at 13.5%, later in the 70's I had a Certificate of Deposit with CBC Bank at 17%, and in 90-91 had a term deposit at 18%. In 2012 I had a loan on first mortgage returning 12%. In 1962 my father took out a number of term deposits for varying periods when preparing to retire to Brisbane. He died in 1970 and I was his executor. Last night I dug around in our archives and found record of one that was still current when he died. It was taken out in 1962 for 10 years and was at 10%.

Rates available have fallen dramatically over the last 10-12 years and good rates are now unobtainable. The best I can do at present is blue chip shares with fully franked dividends which are returning up to 8% when the franking credits are taken into account.

This is why I would like the Treasurer an Minister for Finance to explain what their government is doing to get interest rates up where they should be. I am too old to be looking at long term investments like property which I feel need to be held for 10-15 years to achieve profit by capital gain.

[JDNSW]

Being within a year of the same age as you, I have lived through pretty much the same range of interest rates - but the period since probably about 1960 up until 2008 saw historically abnormally high interest rates, and I think you are kidding yourself if you think these are normal. During some of this time interest rates got to ridiculous levels - I can't remember just when it was, some time in the 1970s, I think, that Australia's then largest company (BHP) reported record profits for an Australian company. What was not generally published was that for several years close on half of that profit was from lending thier spare cash overnight on the short term money market - interest rates were that high!

Inflation is currently around 2%, and has been close to that for the last few years, but before that it was higher. And as I commented above, that is the overall inflation rate - not what applies to you. I don't know about you, but I find my largest expenditures tend to be taxes (rates, motor vehicle etc) and insurance. And these have certainly grown at way above the inflation rate. Also, a lot of changes in society have resulted in more or less obligatory costs that simply did not exist before - e.g. mobile phone charges, internet charges, cost of complying with ever-increasing red tape etc.

And even 2% compounded means over just a few years, price rises become very noticeable.

[Bigbjorn]

This was on the 7.30 report last night.

7.30 : ABC iview (https://iview.abc.net.au/show/7-30/series/0/video/NC1901H094S00)

Discussions re the effect very low interest rates are having on self-funded retirees. Now becoming pensioners and a cost to the government.

[DiscoMick]

You only have to look at Japan to see the effects which low interest rates have had over the last two decades. Stagnation.

[350RRC]

This was on the 7.30 report last night.

7.30 : ABC iview (https://iview.abc.net.au/show/7-30/series/0/video/NC1901H094S00)

Discussions re the effect very low interest rates are having on self-funded retirees. Now becoming pensioners and a cost to the government.

As soon as basic services were sold off by state and federal governments the ordinary bloke in the street was being farmed.

DL

[JDNSW]

Which is cause and which is effect?

[Pickles2]

I would like to ask our Treasurer and Minister for Finance what their government plans to do to get interest rates back up where they should be. Their government has now served two terms and done nothing to get rates up. The Reserve has just reduced the official rate again. For too long now borrowers have been stealing the use of investors money paying negligible interest. My generous bank has just offered me 2.5% on a term deposit. FFS, the real rate of inflation is 5 to 7%. The long term bank deposit rate should be at least 10%. Brokes, bums, and borrowers should be the lawful prey of the investor not the other way around. I don't care if they have to pay high rates on their borrowings. No-one is holding them at gunpoint forcing them to borrow. It is their choice. I want a fair return for the use of my money.
I understand where you're coming from. I'm 74. When I was growing up I bought my first car (FC Holden Special) from Reg Hunt via I.A.C. (finance co) at around 8-9%, bought our first home in 1969 probably round the same rate,..and then I remember these finance "rates" of various descriptions, going up to 18%,..as high as 22%(how people repaid these loans I don't know!) in some cases, and yes, I've had term deposits giving me a very nice return.
So now we have the current cash rate of what 1.5% & home loans around 4%, & the RBA is still going to lower rates again,"to stimulate the economy"???!!!..Well I say that a few more percentage points ain't gonna make any difference "to stimulate the economy",...we've been hearing this reason for several years, and if it is a fact that the economy needs "stimulating", then obviously lowering interest rates to almost zero ain't the answer.
Pickles.

[Pickles2]

Westpac only cut by 0.2 and pocketed the other 0.05, following ANZ cutting by 0.18. This is despite the cost to banks raising money having fallen.
The American banks caused the GFC and our major four see no better.
Go to a smaller bank for a better deal. There are plenty out there. When we last refinanced through a broker we compared 20 and chose BOQ.
Incorrect.
ANZ did NOT pocket the balance. You have no idea what the borrowing costs are, or how the bank's operating costs may have risen. I suggest to you that the bank has simply made a proper commercial decision based on a whole range of issues, bearing in mind that there would be plenty, like yourself (and Disco, fair enough my friend you are entitled to your opinion) who would make their displeasure known.
You are probably not aware that several years ago ANZ cut its dividend, for the same "sound commercial reasons". That dividend still has not been restored to what it was, for the same reasons.
I worked for ANZ for 40 years, so I have a reasonable knowledge of what goes on. My daughter has a sizeable mortgage with ANZ, & she has not been able to find a lower rate anywhere else, despite trying BOQ & Bendigo Bank.
You cannot compare our Banks to ANY U.S. Banks, which operate on an entirely different structure. During the GFC not ONE bank customer lost any money via a "collapsed" bank in Aus. NOT ONE. Our "Four Pillars" Paul called them.
In fact, during the GFC, one of the major reason we were relatively OK was because of the strength of our 4 big banks,...Rudd & Gillard confirmed this MANY times. Now of course,it's "politically correct" to "hammer" the banks. All I can say is that some people have short memories.
And, so that some don't think I'm entirely "blind", I'm not saying that Banks don't make mistakes, who doesn't (make mistakes), so of course they do, but it would be nice to hear some people acknowledge that the banks have helped squillions of Aussies in a very positive & helplful manner, these helpful instances far far outnumbering instances where they might have stuffed up.
I worked in a department where our focus was collecting on, & restoring to "health", loans that were severely in default. It was ALWAYS our focus to assist & help the customer,...ALWAYS. If it was found that we weren't doing that, it would not have gone down well. It was always our focus to assist, to get the customer going again, to help him, and of course, to enable our loan to be repaid, because if the customer fails, so does our loan,...so we all lose dollars,....not a good outcome.
Pickles.

[AndyG]

Im with your Pickles, i've Banked with ANZ for over 40 years and it's been a profitable relationship for both i hope.
Dealing with Govt Dept's and Public Servants is a different story, if only they could hold the same high standards they demand to their own activities, from education to transport to national planning.
Could you imagine Public Servants spending our money being accountable to the same same standard as BEARS (Banking Executive Accountability Regime) they would wet themselves.

[Pickles2]

Im with your Pickles, i've Banked with ANZ for over 40 years and it's been a profitable relationship for both i hope.
Dealing with Govt Dept's and Public Servants is a different story, if only they could hold the same high standards they demand to their own activities, from education to transport to national planning.
Could you imagine Public Servants spending our money being accountable to the same same standard as BEARS (Banking Executive Accountability Regime) they would wet themselves.
"Public Service/Servants"????!!!!!.......SPOT ON.
Pickles.

[JDNSW]

Perhaps it is worth pointing out that a large part of the success of the big banks in withstanding the GFC was that the majority of their deposits were government guaranteed.

And as for banks being accountable - the banking Royal Commission seems to have uncovered a substantial amount of highly unethical behaviour, and in some cases, particularly the CBA's enabling of money laundering, it is difficult to describe it as anything except downright criminal behaviour.

[DiscoMick]

Plus it was the massive pool of domestic superannuation funds which helped to keep our banks afloat when they couldn't borrow overseas.
Last time we refinanced our broker looked at 20 lenders including ANZ and it was BOQ which offered the best deals.

[Pickles2]

Perhaps it is worth pointing out that a large part of the success of the big banks in withstanding the GFC was that the majority of their deposits were government guaranteed.

And as for banks being accountable - the banking Royal Commission seems to have uncovered a substantial amount of highly unethical behaviour, and in some cases, particularly the CBA's enabling of money laundering, it is difficult to describe it as anything except downright criminal behaviour.
That is one way of looking at things,...one way.
The other aspect to consider is that that "guarantee" was never needed, because of their strength & operational measures/procedures/safeguards. It never even came close to being called upon, in fact the banks did not ask for it,...it was never needed, it was more "P.R." for the Govt at the time. The prior strength of the "4 Pillars" as recognized by Paul Keating, ensured that our Banks were always going to be "Good". They were during the "recession we had to have", they were during the G.F.C.,...and they are now.
Banks being "accountable"?...Sure, no problems with that at all, in fact I have no issues with ANY wrong doings by the Banks, as long as, I've said before, they are measured against the "squillions" of good things the Banks have done, to help many many Aussies. Many of the "do-gooders" of recent date find it very "convenient" to forget, or disregard, ANY of the good things the banks have done, including the preservation & safety of EVERY Aussie's dollars during the GFC, AND earlier years during Paul's "Recession we had to have". They just like to "get on the bandwagon" for their own reason, and in many cases, their own "Political Gain".
I was very critical of our (ANZ) CEO during the recent Royal Commission, the same as all the other CEO's saying yeah, we've done this, we've done that, ra ra ra, whereas IMHO they could've at least stood up & talked about the good stuff they've done,.....maybe they've never worked in the "rescue" areas, so maybe they weren't aware of how hard we try,...I HAVE, so I know how hard I, & my colleagues worked to help people, and hey, I ain't no angel, it was just part of the job. I just get sick of all the do-gooders who criticize the Banks, and plenty of other people/organizations etc, but conveniently "ignore" all the good things applicable to the identity in question.
And of course, many people "blame the banks" for their financial failure when it was nothing to do with the bank. The customer ran his business, he made the decisions, the wrong decisions, so he ran out of dollars, the bank would not give him any more dollars, so the business failed,.....so it was the bank's fault!!!!!...yeah right.
Pickles.

[JDNSW]

The guarantee was not used - correct. But it provided the backing to prevent any of the runs on banks that were disastrous for many banks elsewhere.

You are correct in saying that in many cases people get into financial difficulties because they make bad decisions. But in many cases, these bad decisions were enabled and supported by the banks lending money that any proper assessment would have shown was clearly unsupportable.

And then there are the cases where banks bought mortgages from third parties, revalued the security, and called in the mortgages (having changed the rules the mortgage was originally made on), despite the repayments having always been made on time. This led to a number of farmers losing their property and seeing it sold for well below what was a realistic value, simply because all the bank was interested in was getting as much as was owed.

[Bigbjorn]

The guarantee was not used - correct. But it provided the backing to prevent any of the runs on banks that were disastrous for many banks elsewhere.

You are correct in saying that in many cases people get into financial difficulties because they make bad decisions. But in many cases, these bad decisions were enabled and supported by the banks lending money that any proper assessment would have shown was clearly unsupportable.

And then there are the cases where banks bought mortgages from third parties, revalued the security, and called in the mortgages (having changed the rules the mortgage was originally made on), despite the repayments having always been made on time. This led to a number of farmers losing their property and seeing it sold for well below what was a realistic value, simply because all the bank was interested in was getting as much as was owed.

I remember a certain bank and its finance company that got into diabolical trouble in the 1980's. They drastically reduced the overdrafts of many businesses and the floor plans of many retailers and demanded they pay up. Right now, if you please. Another bank trick is to revalue the asset base that is mortgaged to secure a farmer's overdraft. Asset value has dropped and is less than the balance outstanding so provide some more asset backing or cash, or be repossessed and sold up for as JD says the outstanding amount.

By the way, during my time in the motor and heavy plant industries dealer floor plan rates were never below 18%.

[V8Ian]

That is one way of looking at things,...one way.
The other aspect to consider is that that "guarantee" was never needed, because of their strength & operational measures/procedures/safeguards. It never even came close to being called upon, in fact the banks did not ask for it,...it was never needed, it was more "P.R." for the Govt at the time. The prior strength of the "4 Pillars" as recognized by Paul Keating, ensured that our Banks were always going to be "Good". They were during the "recession we had to have", they were during the G.F.C.,...and they are now.
Banks being "accountable"?...Sure, no problems with that at all, in fact I have no issues with ANY wrong doings by the Banks, as long as, I've said before, they are measured against the "squillions" of good things the Banks have done, to help many many Aussies. Many of the "do-gooders" of recent date find it very "convenient" to forget, or disregard, ANY of the good things the banks have done, including the preservation & safety of EVERY Aussie's dollars during the GFC, AND earlier years during Paul's "Recession we had to have". They just like to "get on the bandwagon" for their own reason, and in many cases, their own "Political Gain".
I was very critical of our (ANZ) CEO during the recent Royal Commission, the same as all the other CEO's saying yeah, we've done this, we've done that, ra ra ra, whereas IMHO they could've at least stood up & talked about the good stuff they've done,.....maybe they've never worked in the "rescue" areas, so maybe they weren't aware of how hard we try,...I HAVE, so I know how hard I, & my colleagues worked to help people, and hey, I ain't no angel, it was just part of the job. I just get sick of all the do-gooders who criticize the Banks, and plenty of other people/organizations etc, but conveniently "ignore" all the good things applicable to the identity in question.
And of course, many people "blame the banks" for their financial failure when it was nothing to do with the bank. The customer ran his business, he made the decisions, the wrong decisions, so he ran out of dollars, the bank would not give him any more dollars, so the business failed,.....so it was the bank's fault!!!!!...yeah right.
Pickles.
Would you be so forgiving of a person who defrauded the bank?

"Yes, Your Honour, my client did rip the bank of for a thousand dollars, on the day in question. But he didn't for the other three hundred and sixty-four days of that year. In fact, the bank ripped him off, charging for services not provided. [bigwhistle]

[Bigbjorn]

Maybe this should be in the Jokes thread.

Bank manager phones client "Mr Kafoops, your account is $2000 overdrawn. Most irregular. We expect this to be paid by the end of the week."

Mr. Kafoops " What was the state of the account this time last month?"

Manager " Why, it was $2000 in credit."

Mr. Kafoops " Did I 'phone you?"