D day 6 June 1944 - Why not just talk

[NavyDiver]

This Canadian Vet says it so well (https://www.cbc.ca/news/thenational/reliving-the-horror-of-d-day-75-years-later-with-a-canadian-veteran-1.5161148)



3000 Australian Air men as our troops came back to save our bacon here after the poms left us in a mess. Please excuse my distraction from D day with that last comment.

Respect and remeberance for the men and women who helped change histroy. Horrors of D day is true - Courage of those who fought is also true and a gift we owe for ever.

Lest we forget.

[Redback]

Lest We Forget

[Pickles2]

This Canadian Vet says it so well (https://www.cbc.ca/news/thenational/reliving-the-horror-of-d-day-75-years-later-with-a-canadian-veteran-1.5161148)



3000 Australian Air men as our troops came back to save our bacon here after the poms left us in a mess. Please excuse my distraction from D day with that last comment.

Respect and remeberance for the men and women who helped change histroy. Horrors of D day is true - Courage of those who fought is also true and a gift we owe for ever.

Lest we forget.
I object to that, being a "Pom", and also a proud Aussie, and a person whose family lost family members & relos in WW11, we did not "leave anyone in a mess".
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, & I'm definitely not saying everything was ideal, or went to plan, or could not have been done better or differently, but I believe everyone did what they thought was right. I would not have been liked to have been responsible for decisions in those days, decisions that could cost thousands of lives, be those decisions right, or wrong.
The same reaction comes from me when it comes to talk about the U.S. I get well & truly sick of all the knockers (not saying you're one of them!) when the truth is that you & I would not be talking were it not for the tens of thousands of U.S. Troops who fought & died in the Pacific theatre.
Pickles.

[NavyDiver]

I object to that, being a "Pom", and also a proud Aussie, and a person whose family lost family members & relos in WW11, we did not "leave anyone in a mess".
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, & I'm definitely not saying everything was ideal, or went to plan, or could not have been done better or differently, but I believe everyone did what they thought was right. I would not have been liked to have been responsible for decisions in those days, decisions that could cost thousands of lives, be those decisions right, or wrong.
The same reaction comes from me when it comes to talk about the U.S. I get well & truly sick of all the knockers (not saying you're one of them!) when the truth is that you & I would not be talking were it not for the tens of thousands of U.S. Troops who fought & died in the Pacific theatre.
Pickles.
I'll respond tomorrow. Not on D day

Lest we forget

[101RRS]

Well Churchill refused to release Australian forces from the European theatre so that they could return to the Pacific to protect Australia from the Japanese. Churchill was not interested in the blight of Australia and would have sacrificed up to save the UK.

Curtin overruled Churchill and brought most of our forces back and saved up from the mess that Churchill put us in.

[BathurstTom]

Well Churchill refused to release Australian forces from the European theatre so that they could return to the Pacific to protect Australia from the Japanese. Churchill was not interested in the blight of Australia and would have sacrificed up to save the UK.

Curtin overruled Churchill and brought most of our forces back and saved up from the mess that Churchill put us in.
Churchill didn't put us in any mess. It was the Japs that wanted to invade here, not Churchill. The Japs entered the war due to America "foreclosing" on the loans they had given to Japan before the war. If you consult your history book you will see that Japan was previously an ally in WW1. We got our troops back in the pacific region to do what? Become prisoners of the Japs? They were never called upon to actually defend Australian shores (other than the air raid upon Darwin).

"The Japanese threat was further underlined on 19 February, when Japan bombed Darwin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Darwin), the first of many air raids on northern Australia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_air_attacks_on_Australia,_1942-43).[42] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Curtin#cite_note-FOOTNOTEHasluck197070%E2%80%9371-45) Churchill attempted to divert I Corps to reinforce British troops in Burma, without Australian approval. Curtin insisted that it return to Australia.[45] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Curtin#cite_note-FOOTNOTEHasluck197077%E2%80%9387-48) Roosevelt supported Churchill, offering to send an American division to Australia instead, while the Chief of the General Staff (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_of_Army_(Australia)) Lieutenant General (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieutenant_general_(Australia)) Vernon Sturdee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernon_Sturdee), threaten to resign if his advice was ignored and the troops were diverted to Burma.[46] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Curtin#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDay1999453%E2%80%93454-49) Curtin prevailed, although he weakly agreed that the main body of the 6th Division could garrison Ceylon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceylon)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Curtin#Military_policies

[Bigbjorn]

I object to that, being a "Pom", and also a proud Aussie, and a person whose family lost family members & relos in WW11, we did not "leave anyone in a mess".
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, & I'm definitely not saying everything was ideal, or went to plan, or could not have been done better or differently, but I believe everyone did what they thought was right. I would not have been liked to have been responsible for decisions in those days, decisions that could cost thousands of lives, be those decisions right, or wrong.
The same reaction comes from me when it comes to talk about the U.S. I get well & truly sick of all the knockers (not saying you're one of them!) when the truth is that you & I would not be talking were it not for the tens of thousands of U.S. Troops who fought & died in the Pacific theatre.
Pickles.

Whoever called the British "Perfidious Albion" got it right. Two faced, double dealing, self interested, liars, cheats, etc. Just look at their history. How they treated friends and allies over the centuries.

All poms should remember that if not for the actions of Commonwealth troops in two World Wars German would be very widely spoken in Britain.

[101RRS]

We defended Australia by fighting the Japanese in SE Asia, in Borneo, in New Guinea, in the Phillipines, in the Solomons. If forces were not pulled back from Europe to fight with the Allies in the Pacific and SE Asia things may have been different and we may have had a land fight on the Australian mainland.

[p38arover]

Churchill was not interested in the blight of Australia and would have sacrificed up to save the UK.

Nor the plight. [bigwhistle]

[DiscoMick]

I believe some of the returning full-time Aussie troops from Africa were sent to PNG to reinforce and relieve the battered irregular Aussies who had taken the brunt of the Japanese advance up the Kokoda trail.

[Pickles2]

Whoever called the British "Perfidious Albion" got it right. Two faced, double dealing, self interested, liars, cheats, etc. Just look at their history. How they treated friends and allies over the centuries.

All poms should remember that if not for the actions of Commonwealth troops in two World Wars German would be very widely spoken in Britain.
Obviously spot on,....which is the reason for Britain entering WW11 in the first place, which was,..... to "honor "a treaty???.....maybe you didnt know that?.....Yeah right.
The reason why the "Allies" won WW11 was not all to do with Britain, ..., it was because of the U.S., don't care whether you agree with them, like them, I don't really care, because any realist would admit that we wouldn't have won without them, even though my mum said ( She endured the blitz, and lost family), they didn't come in until they were attacked. Joe Kennedy actually advised the U.S. not to support Britain, as they were going to lose.
Pickles.

[ramblingboy42]

I believe some of the returning full-time Aussie troops from Africa were sent to PNG to reinforce and relieve the battered irregular Aussies who had taken the brunt of the Japanese advance up the Kokoda trail.

can you enlarge on this Mick? you believe or you know?

[4bee]

Become prisoners of the Japs?



Huh? How come no one has called YOU out for not using the term Japanese? [smilebigeye]

I recently had my fingers smacked for saying J*ps ffs.[bighmmm]


Double standards of that person I reckon. Yes yes, I remember who you are.



Joe Kennedy actually advised the U.S. not to support Britain, as they were going to lose.

Joe Kennedy was a *****.

[DiscoMick]

can you enlarge on this Mick? you believe or you know?I read it in a history of the Kokoda Trail, but I gave the book away as a prize in a fund-raiser on here, so I don't have it handy to check.

[sashadidi]

they didn't come in until they were attacked. Joe Kennedy actually advised the U.S. not to support Britain, as they were going to lose.
Pickles.
Some historians put forward the thesis that this was a combination of US wish to not get involved in Europes problems again and in Joe Kennedys case along with a normal American reaction to having broken free from the UK 1776 etc and all that involves (well english state at the time) an almost visceral loathing of the UKs treatment of Ireland over several centuries. every reaction has a basis on past and present experiences, something politicans quite often forget...
to use a phrase you reap what you sow......

[donh54]

I read it in a history of the Kokoda Trail, but I gave the book away as a prize in a fund-raiser on here, so I don't have it handy to check.First let's get one thing straight - it's the Kokoda TRACK, not trail.
The first time the Japanese suffered a defeat in their land campaign, was at Milne Bay. They landed from ships and attempted to capture the airfield.
They were beaten back to their boats by members of the 25th, 9th and 49th Battalions of the Royal Queensland Regiment, all CMF (Citizens Military Forces, forerunners to the current Army Reserve)

Following that defeat, the Japanese then attempted to cross the Owen Stanley Ranges via the Kokoda TRACK.

I'm currently bouncing up and down in a tractor, so I'm going by memory of the history of my old Battalion (25RQR)

[4bee]

Good onyer donh.:TakeABow::TakeABow:


I wondered when someone would pick up that point. Trail is U.S. Track is Australian.

[RANDLOVER]

The Kokoda “Track” or “Trail”? | The Australian War Memorial (https://www.awm.gov.au/articles/blog/the-kokoda-track-or-trail)

I'm afraid the track vs trail is still up for debate. I always thought a trail was more for walking, as in hiking trail and track applied more to vehicles, as in cart track, railroad track.

Now onto another contentious subject, we are a minnow in a very big pond, see "The Brisbane Line" Brisbane Line - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brisbane_Line),

It seems despite the acrimony levelled at the British, even Australian military minds thought that not all of the country could be defended. "(Lieutenant-General Iven Mackay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iven_Mackay), had advocated that in the event of an invasion, the majority of available Australian forces be concentrated in the area between Brisbane and Melbourne, where most of the nation's industrial capability was located.)" and "In his memoir (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoir), Reminiscences, MacArthur claims that the Australian military had proposed designating a line roughly following the Darling River (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darling_River) as the focus of defence during the expected Japanese invasion of Australia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Japanese_invasion_of_Australia_during_Wor ld_War_II)"

I think the northernmost pill-box for defence of the Brisbane line is located on Bribie Island.

[4bee]

Interesting & I was basing my post on the USA Appalachian Trail, not track, along the East Coast of the USA & as I recall the subject of Bill Bryson's book (his first i think ???) where he did this trail over a series of Weeks or weekends.

'Appalachian Track' doesn't quite cut it but as history seems to get changed at the drop of a hat these days anything is possible.

Appalachian Trail - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_Trail)

To me it has always been Track in PNG.

JDNSW may be a bit of an authority on this. having worked there for some years.

[UncleHo]

The "Brisbane Line" did indeed start at Bribie Is. and went west through Caboolture and on up to Wamuran and on to Kingaroy where a sealed Airfield was built,this being beyond the range of Jananese carrier aircraft,US supplied fighter aircraft were unloaded at Brisnane's Brett's Wharf and then assembled in igloo type hangers close by and towed to what is now the old Brisbane Airport,also modernised by the US Army Airforce where they were test flown and dispatched to the squadrons,I know this as my grandparents (mother's side) lived at Ascot.
Dad was up in the Islands serving.

Grandfather ex WW1 was recalled in 39 and as a Commissioned officer served first at "Frasers Paddock " aka Enoggera Barracks,then on to "Sommerville House" which was MacArthur's Headquarters until late 1945 when he returned to the USA.

cheers

[incisor]

can you enlarge on this Mick? you believe or you know?

My father in law was one

So it is fact

[donh54]

The Kokoda “Track” or “Trail”? | The Australian War Memorial (https://www.awm.gov.au/articles/blog/the-kokoda-track-or-trail)

I'm afraid the track vs trail is still up for debate. I always thought a trail was more for walking, as in hiking trail and track applied more to vehicles, as in cart track, railroad track.

Now onto another contentious subject, we are a minnow in a very big pond, see "The Brisbane Line" Brisbane Line - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brisbane_Line),

It seems despite the acrimony levelled at the British, even Australian military minds thought that not all of the country could be defended. "(Lieutenant-General Iven Mackay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iven_Mackay), had advocated that in the event of an invasion, the majority of available Australian forces be concentrated in the area between Brisbane and Melbourne, where most of the nation's industrial capability was located.)" and "In his memoir (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoir), Reminiscences, MacArthur claims that the Australian military had proposed designating a line roughly following the Darling River (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darling_River) as the focus of defence during the expected Japanese invasion of Australia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Japanese_invasion_of_Australia_during_Wor ld_War_II)"

I think the northernmost pill-box for defence of the Brisbane line is located on Bribie Island.Very interesting link, thanks.
It was an old Digger from the 39th that was most insistent about the fact that it was a track, not a trail.
As he was one of the poor bloody sods (his words) that fought their way over it, i have always followed his lead, and, with all due respect to the "trail" camp, I'll continue to use the word "track" in memory of him and all the other heroes.

Lest We Forget

[Geedublya]

Obviously spot on,....which is the reason for Britain entering WW11 in the first place, which was,..... to "honor "a treaty???.....maybe you didnt know that?.....Yeah right.
The reason why the "Allies" won WW11 was not all to do with Britain, ..., it was because of the U.S., don't care whether you agree with them, like them, I don't really care, because any realist would admit that we wouldn't have won without them, even though my mum said ( She endured the blitz, and lost family), they didn't come in until they were attacked. Joe Kennedy actually advised the U.S. not to support Britain, as they were going to lose.
Pickles.

They needed the USA but if Britain had been over run the USA wouldn’t have been able to get into Europe.

[Old Farang]

can you enlarge on this Mick? you believe or you know?
The Australian 9th Division, after withdrawal from Al Alamein and Tobruk, were regrouped in Queensland and were sent to PNG, where they landed at Lae. My late uncle was part of it.

[INter674]

My late father (8th army) said he felt sorry for the Russians who lost millions in ww2 and who he believed were key to overthrowing the nazis.

Not that he disrespected the USA or other efforts of the allied forces that he fought alongside but that the Russian effort should not be discounted.

I note Putin was not invited to the D Day celebrations..a little bit of rewriting history perhaps?

Polotics sadly trumps the truth when it suits. ...

[4bee]

I'm not convinced the overthrow could have been done by just one nation but was a combination of effort from many nations.



Today, 1 or 2 A- BOMBs would have done the trick but with serious ramifications for all.


Russia did seem to get caught up a 'tad' on the eastern front & that was their downfall & maybe that is why Putin was not invited.

[Pickles2]

My late father (8th army) said he felt sorry for the Russians who lost millions in ww2 and who he believed were key to overthrowing the nazis.

Not that he disrespected the USA or other efforts of the allied forces that he fought alongside but that the Russian effort should not be discounted.

I note Putin was not invited to the D Day celebrations..a little bit of rewriting history perhaps?

Polotics sadly trumps the truth when it suits. ...
I believe Putin Should DEFiNITELY have been invited.
Pickles.

[laney]

I think Putin should of been invited to the D day rememberence as at that time they were allies but as a world community we still have a them and us thinking and would proberly not look good politicly with someone who is now seen as the bad guy.

[NavyDiver]

I object to that, being a "Pom", and also a proud Aussie, and a person whose family lost family members & relos in WW11, we did not "leave anyone in a mess".
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, & I'm definitely not saying everything was ideal, or went to plan, or could not have been done better or differently, but I believe everyone did what they thought was right. I would not have been liked to have been responsible for decisions in those days, decisions that could cost thousands of lives, be those decisions right, or wrong.
The same reaction comes from me when it comes to talk about the U.S. I get well & truly sick of all the knockers (not saying you're one of them!) when the truth is that you & I would not be talking were it not for the tens of thousands of U.S. Troops who fought & died in the Pacific theatre.
Pickles.

Self interest is a big motivator for us all. That said "Fortress Singapore" was questioned openly before all out troops, Airrforce and Naval Forces were sent to Africa and all over the Mediterranean. "the concept of the 'Main Fleet to Singapore' had, perhaps through constant repetition, assumed something of the inviolability of Holy Writ" Yet is was and is arrogance which poms are noted for often.

"Singapore sat at the crossroads of the British Empire. Lodged between the Indian and Pacific Oceans, equidistant between the 'crown jewel' of India to the west, Australia and New Zealand to the south-east, and Hong Kong to the north, it was 'undoubtedly the naval key to the Far East'. In the early 1920s, Britain pledged to build a massive naval base at Singapore and to send a strong fleet to the Far East if its interests in the region, including Australia, were threatened. By the outbreak of war in 1939, Singapore had become, in the minds of many Australians, a potent symbol of imperial strength and security. Such was its perceived importance that when Australia sent forces to bolster Singapore’s defences, many Australians felt that their men and women were defending the nation itself."

History is pretty clear on the outcome. Sacrifices were made by many. The Poms did (not or could not) send the promised support to hold Singapore and this is a direct reason Australia was bombed by land based aircraft for the only time in our history. The incredibly brave almost gorilla style Australian forces Fighting in PNG until the fully trained boys came home.

Reality is some self interest occurred at the end to ensure we were not invaded which is highly likely If we had not changed our principle aliance to include the Americans and prioritizing our own self defense over the fight in Europe.

We all like poms so no offense is meant nor anger at what happened. Truth is fine with me. Air brushing stuff is not great in my view.

Anzac - DVA link (https://anzacportal.dva.gov.au/multimedia/publications/bitter-fateaustralians-malaya-singapore/chapter-1-singapore-fortress)

Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_strategy)

[4bee]

As a very tired & exhausted Lt. Cmdr George Ericson (Jack Hawkins) said to Donald Sinden whilst on the bridge of HMS Saltash Castle at War's end........ "Its the War No1, it's the bloody War".

[PhilipA]

I think the northernmost pill-box for defence of the Brisbane line is located on Bribie Island.


Townsville had gun emplacements On Magnetic Island to command the channel into the Port. They only ever fired once in anger at an American destroyer which did not give the correct response to challenge.

The bloke across the road from my house In Hayles Avenue on Magnetic built his by dismantling and moving the barracks to our street.
Regards Philip A



The "Brisbane Line" did indeed start at Bribie Is. and went west through Caboolture and on up to Wamuran and on to Kingaroy where a sealed Airfield was built,this being beyond the range of Jananese carrier aircraf


My mother and siblings evacuated to Chinchilla from Brisbane and my Dad was stationed at Wallangarra on the Qld border where there was a large storage depot. I think it was this fear of Japanese shelling that they reacted to after Sydney and Newcastle. Also there was an American camp in East Brisbane opposite my parents house, and "around the creek" on Norman Creek was another facility where there were anti aircraft guns, the pits still existing when I was a teenager.

My brother and a mate used to steal stuff from the Px and his mate was shot one night. He later became a police detective.

[DieselDan]

Whoever called the British "Perfidious Albion" got it right. Two faced, double dealing, self interested, liars, cheats, etc. Just look at their history. How they treated friends and allies over the centuries.

All poms should remember that if not for the actions of Commonwealth troops in two World Wars German would be very widely spoken in Britain.Ironically, it was the French.

Just wondering. Do you hold all of us in this regard, just the pollies/military, or whichever engineering 'genius' at LR promised so much, but failed miserably, with whatever part last failed on your LR?

Don't worry, your last point is well remembered.

[trout1105]

All poms should remember that if not for the actions of Commonwealth troops in two World Wars German would be very widely spoken in Britain.

It should also be remembered that without the "Poms" there would Not have been a Commonwealth in the first place[bigwhistle]

[Old Farang]

The "Brisbane Line" did indeed start at Bribie Is. and went west through Caboolture and on up to Wamuran and on to Kingaroy...……………...
I am not from the East Coast(although born in Victoria), but I do know that there was a coastal gun emplacement at Caloundra. Back in another lifetime I had to land on the roof of the thing as part of my helicopter training!

[DiscoMick]

I don't have a preference about track vs trail, but if the PNG Government says trail is the name, then it's their country, so that's it, I think.

[4bee]

But it will forever be to me, "Track" & I'm sure if I ever decide to walk it, my Travel Agent will know exactly where I mean & they have probably had this discussion in their office as well.

Personally, the way I feel today with a heavy cold coming on & a runny hooter that day will be light years away.[biggrin]




My brother and a mate used to steal stuff from the Px and his mate was shot one night. He later became a police detective.


Sounds like he may have been well qualified.[smilebigeye]

[Pickles2]

I don't have a preference about track vs trail, but if the PNG Government says trail is the name, then it's their country, so that's it, I think.
Maybe so, but all the diggers that I knew, referred to "Track",...my wife walked it several years ago, at which time everybody who was with her, including Tour Leaders & native carriers referred to the "track".
Pickles.

[sashadidi]

I believe Putin Should DEFiNITELY have been invited.
Pickles.

You do realise that Russians basically believe or put forward the viewpoint that the War began 22/6/1941 and not the 3/9/39 ( and they basically won it single handed and they never aided Hilter by supplying oil and metals etc for two years...)and that date was not really relevant in any way, and yes even this year my relatives kids are being taught that and if you look at the russian MFA tweets about D day you will see this is confirmed, not taking away anything they did in the war but its a view point they really believe and yes its being taught in schools even in march this year when I was there and looked... they have an extremely valid point but play on it to the domestic audience a lot...., IN first 25 years until brezhnev from memory only 4 or 5 victory parades but Putin has one every year, valid but a "distraction" for other stuff not related to that event IMHO. I visited Stalingrad for the second time and its amazing what must have gone on there and for first time I even heard a russian say, it was amazing how the germans got that far and boy when you are there you can see its a big country. tt was an amazing battle on both sides.
It suits Putin not to be invited for domestic reasons but he would have gone if invited so its a win win for him inside the country in his eyes.
151804

[3toes]

You do realise that Russians basically believe or put forward the viewpoint that the War began 22/6/1941 and not the 3/9/39 ( and they basically won it single handed and they never aided Hilter by supplying oil and metals etc for two years...)and that date was not really relevant in any way, and yes even this year my relatives kids are being taught that and if you look at the russian MFA tweets about D day you will see this is confirmed, not taking away anything they did in the war but its a view point they really believe and yes its being taught in schools even in march this year when I was there and looked... they have an extremely valid point but play on it to the domestic audience a lot...., IN first 25 years until brezhnev from memory only 4 or 5 victory parades but Putin has one every year, valid but a "distraction" for other stuff not related to that event IMHO. I visited Stalingrad for the second time and its amazing what must have gone on there and for first time I even heard a russian say, it was amazing how the germans got that far and boy when you are there you can see its a big country. tt was an amazing battle on both sides.
It suits Putin not to be invited for domestic reasons but he would have gone if invited so its a win win for him inside the country in his eyes.
151804

Watching the D Day events on TV it was interesting to note that it was referenced as the Commonwealth forces not the previously used British forces that invaded with US. Politics no doubt.

There is a push from a certain side of politics in Europe to see the actions of the west during WW2 as merely a diversion while the actual fighting took place on the eastern front. This is usually based on casualty figures.

The decisive Russian campaign battle did not see any Russian involvement. Was Greece where they rescued the Italians which delayed the invasion by Germany for 6 weeks.

Russia has only ever been invited to the D Day events on an irregular basis.

Fighting in the pacific was always a very second tier priority after Europe. This was decided by USA who after all were the major equipment suppliers to both UK and Russia. That victory was achieved in the pacific so quickly with the limited resources provided was a very good effort. The top Allied leaders would have been satisfied with just holding them until Europe was settled. Number of US troops in pacific did not exceed those of Australia until June 1944.

Have seen the files in the UK national archives where the British war plan for the pacific had 40 UK divisions deployed. Not sure where these were to come from as there were only 43 divisions at peak strength in late 1943