The Banning of Climbing Uluru (Ayers Rock) - thoughts on this article?

[Robmacca]

Came across this article about the banning of climbing of Uluru (Ayers Rock) - Just wondering what people think??


There Will Be No More Climbing on Ayers Rock BY SHON ELLERTON · JUNE 3, 2019 (Ayers Rock) (https://shonellerton.com/20190603-ayers-rock/)

??

[scarry]

One of my brothers ran the park for 3 yrs,then worked in Darwin for Parks Australia,for over 10 yrs.

Many died climbing the rock,word didn't get out.

Not a big issue for me either way.

If people are not fit,or are elderly,they need to look after themselves.

[justinc]

Ha ha I'll go and find the bag of popcorn...🤣

Seriously though my personal opinion is one of abiding by the wishes of the traditional land custodians.

[Tote]

An interesting article with a particular view. A bit hard to comment on without spearing the post off to oblivion. One point that I found interesting was the view about how the US treats their indigenous population's sacred sites versus Australia. There also appears to be some differing opinion on the thoughts of the traditional owners on people actually climbing the rock. When we were there in 2010 the "vibe" seemed to be that the death of tourists on the rock upset the local indigenous community rather than the actual act of climbing the rock itself. One thought that comes to mind is that if I was running a park with a potentially risky, staff intensive attraction and I could get the same number of visitors without the attraction being open that's what I'd probably aim for (but maybe I'm just cynical)

Regards,
Tote

[ramblingboy42]

Good decision , no one climbs all over cathedrals or other sacred monuments.

Uluru has been sacred for longer than any recorded history , in fact there would be no older sacred site in the world.

[justinc]

An interesting article with a particular view. A bit hard to comment on without spearing the post off to oblivion. One point that I found interesting was the view about how the US treats their indigenous population's sacred sites versus Australia. There also appears to be some differing opinion on the thoughts of the traditional owners on people actually climbing the rock. When we were there in 2010 the "vibe" seemed to be that the death of tourists on the rock upset the local indigenous community rather than the actual act of climbing the rock itself. One thought that comes to mind is that if I was running a park with a potentially risky, staff intensive attraction and I could get the same number of visitors without the attraction being open that's what I'd probably aim for (but maybe I'm just cynical)

Regards,
Tote

Definitely any death on or near a sacred place is heartbreaking for the traditional peoples. What people seem to forget is that life forces for these people are not held the same way as the "western" world. We would do well to take some of their respect for the lives of those who have died and apply it to our so called "civilised" society . 🙄

[Pickles2]

My wife & I climbed Ayers Rock many years ago. It was an unforgettable experince,....I agree with the article.
Pickles.

[Eevo]

Good decision , no one climbs all over cathedrals or other sacred monuments..

those are man made.

ive climbed it before. and aftr the ban, i'll still climb it.

[goingbush]

i would never climb it out of respect .
More to the point I'm not a ****ing lemming and have no desire to do what busloads of Japs seem to have on their 'bucket list'

[67hardtop]

Jeez id drive my land rover up it if i was able to. Its a bloody rock. A big bloody rock.

[dirvine]

I must say I agree with the article. I 1st climbed the rock in 1970. We had an aboriginal guide who pointed out many features as we walked. Since then I have walked to the top at least a dozen times and at least on 3 occasions had or saw a "local" guide telling groups about the rocks past history etc. Until recently I had never heard anybody say it was not OK to climb it for some "sacred" reason. I can understand the dangers etc and the risks, and the costs associated with retrieval of persons who are not physically capable of climbing but still try. As such I still drive past the rock on my short cut trip between Perth and Brisbane. But now I no longer stop there or pay anything to do so. To me the place is just a great "white fella" rip off place and as such think there are better places than Ayers Rock to visit. Mt Augustus is a bigger monolith than Ayers Rock, and as of last year still free to see and climb. But I am sure if it becomes too popular, some one somewhere will suddenly find a way to stop the climbing and also charge money to get to see it. I guess we can call that progress.....sigh.

[Eevo]

having climbed both Mt Augustus and Ayres Rock, I definitely think Ayres rock is more fun, except for all the bloody tourists.

[trout1105]

I imagine that the ban will be lifted when the tourist dollars dry up at this "Cash Cow"

[martnH]

So will climbing the Everest be banned soon

[rick130]

So will climbing the Everest be banned soonAFAIK Mt Kailash has never been climbed and isn't allowed. [emoji6]

[p38arover]

I'd climb Ayres Rock.

[V8Ian]

I'd climb Ayres Rock.
I've put the rescue chopper on notice. :tease:

[p38arover]

Mongrel!

I did climb almost to the top of the Great Wall when in Beijing a few weeks back.
The higher one got, the fewer the climbers on the Wall. By the time I turned around (ran out of time and had to get back to bus), there were only 3 other people up there.

[gromit]

Climbing Uluru was discussed a couple of years back
Climbing Uluru to be banned from 2019 (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/255335-climbing-uluru-banned-2019-a.html)
I sure remember someone taking their bat & ball and heading off because they weren't happy.........

I climbed it as a tourist about 25years ago.


Colin

[grey_ghost]

I have climbed it twice. Probably too unfit to climb it now. The “original owners” are mirco organisms - I tried to talk to them but they wouldn’t answer in English...

[INter674]

2 years ago we visited to climb but were told the traditional owners were discouraging climbing...by saying it was too windy...or slippery etc etc.

But the guide said ..if we waited until the tour buses left we could go up..but we ran out of time.

A bit of a let down and no doubt one that will affect the bottom line...I would not go back there neither would any of the other 10 with us. And they will tell 20 more and so on.

Similar policies were and are in force on 4wd access..camping..fires and so on wrt indigenous lands..which whilst perfectly legit are a pia and will drive revenue away.

I note that some communities have already reversed earlier bans and now provide permits to access native lands.

Time will tell😎

[87County]

Mongrel!

I did climb almost to the top of the Great Wall when in Beijing a few weeks back.
The higher one got, the fewer the climbers on the Wall. By the time I turned around (ran out of time and had to get back to bus), there were only 3 other people up there.

Gosh Ron, I thought the only Great Walls in Beijing would be utes, surely not that difficult to "climb on" (as you succinctly described the activity), but why anyone would want to .... is quite beyond me.

:)

[p38arover]

Gosh Ron, I thought the only Great Walls in Beijing would be utes, surely not that difficult to "climb on" (as you succinctly described the activity), but why anyone would want to .... is quite beyond me.

:)

One of the others on the tour bought a Great Wall cap - I suggested anyone in Oz who saw it would only think he owned a GW ute. He said he'd get a "Y" embroidered onto the cap so that it would read "Great Wally"

[p38arover]

2 years ago we visited to climb but were told the traditional owners were discouraging climbing...by saying it was too windy...or slippery etc etc.

Same here. So we flew over it in a chopper.

[rijidij]

They happily take your money to enter the park and you ‘are allowed’ to climb the rock. If you don’t want to climb it, for whatever reason, don’t, but if you do choose to climb you won’t regret it because it’s freaking awesome standing up there. The view is beyond amazing.
I climbed it in ‘04 and would love to do it again before it’s closed.

[Xtreme]

It would be interesting to take a vote on whether or not you agree on the ban to climb.
Is it possible to to create a poll whithin an active thread?

[Homestar]

Is it possible to to create a poll whithin an active thread?

No, it has to be created when starting the thread. Just went and had a look at the OP's post - the Poll option is missing when editing even for a Mod. Wonder if a new thread with Poll could be created then merged - I'll give that a go.

[67hardtop]

What are the costs involved. Never been there [emoji53]

[Homestar]

Yep, that's the way to do it - I created a new thread with the Poll, then merged it here. Answers are confidential. Go for it!

[Pickles2]

They happily take your money to enter the park and you ‘are allowed’ to climb the rock. If you don’t want to climb it, for whatever reason, don’t, but if you do choose to climb you won’t regret it because it’s freaking awesome standing up there. The view is beyond amazing.
I climbed it in ‘04 and would love to do it again before it’s closed.
Yes, that is my opinion also,...the view from the top (Olgas in the distance) is amazing, something I'll never forget. I'd climb again, and would recommend anyone who is able to do so. It would be beyond me now.
A very special experience. Pickles.

[p38arover]

Good decision , no one climbs all over cathedrals <snip>.

I would - most are engineering marvels and I'd be there like shot if I could.

[DiscoMick]

People pee and poop on Uluru, so it's a health hazard.

[Homestar]

Then they need a set of porta Loos up there... [emoji56][emoji38]

[p38arover]

Then they need a set of porta Loos up there... [emoji56][emoji38]

Absolutley! If the Chinese can put a souvenir shop at the top of the Great Wall where one can also buy a beer or ice cream, etc. (I bought an ice cream), then we could helicopter in a few loos. [bigwhistle]

[LRT]

A chairlift to the top would be nice [biggrin]

[Homestar]

A chairlift to the top would be nice [biggrin]

That's the only way I'd manage to get up there I think. [emoji56]

[DiscoMick]

I suppose the other point which I don't think has been referred to here is the ownership.
It's actually private land, belonging to the Anangu traditional landowners, who have generously made it available to the public under a 99-year agreement with the NPWS, so they would be quite legally within their rights to lock the gate and tell everyone to bugger off.
Traditionally, only senior men could climb the rock, which is associated with creation myths. The women had their own separate sacred area where men could not go.
So, to put that in perspective, if you wanted to visit a friend's property and the friend told you part of the property was closed and you couldn't go there, would you respect that and do as the friend asked, or would you deliberately ignore the owner's wishes?

On this day: Aboriginal Australians get Uluru back - Australian Geographic (https://www.australiangeographic.com.au/blogs/on-this-day/2013/11/on-this-day-aboriginal-australians-get-uluru-back/)

[Eevo]

So, to put that in perspective, if you wanted to visit a friend's property and the friend told you part of the property was closed and you couldn't go there, would you respect that and do as the friend asked, or would you deliberately ignore the owner's wishes?


my friend wouldnt charge me money to visit his property.

[DiscoMick]

my friend wouldnt charge me money to visit his property.
He could. Perfectly within his rights as an owner.

[Eevo]

He could. Perfectly within his rights as an owner.

he would be a pretty ****ty friend.

[Redback]

having climbed both Mt Augustus and Ayres Rock, I definitely think Ayres rock is more fun, except for all the bloody tourists.

Kids say the cutest things:blink:

[manic]

It's getting ugly round there, a **** ton of FIFO tourists getting their Instagram fix.

To improve things I would:

Close the airport to tourist/passenger flights. Visitors must arrive overland.

Ban commercial helicopter fly overs.

Allow for camping around the rock. (A 360 ring of generous camping area, not too close but with Uluru in sight). Park ticket gets you access and three nights. Any overstay charged on exit.

No climbing by default, invite only.

Hot air balloons for elevated views.

-----

[DiscoMick]

he would be a pretty ****ty friend.The Anungu are not your friends.

[Redback]

I voted yes:tease: and when there in 2017 we decided not to climb it instead we went around it on Segways:BigThumb:

[Homestar]

The Anungu are not your friends.

You just said they were in an earlier post - you can't use an analogy like that then go back on it because it doesn't suit your argument any more. [emoji6]

[manic]

No they are Not, My friends don't spend all there money on drugs, booze and gambling[bigwhistle]Uluru is not the crown casino.

[Eevo]

Kids say the cutest things:blink:

i was being ironic [biggrin]

[Eevo]

The Anungu are not your friends.


why not?

[Homestar]

why not?

I thought the same thing - they haven't even met me.

[vnx205]

I would - most are engineering marvels and I'd be there like shot if I could.
There was a TV series a few years ago that involved the commentator climbing a lot of iconic buildings, being suspended near the roof and such things. It was very interesting and informative.

[Pickles2]

I suppose the other point which I don't think has been referred to here is the ownership.
It's actually private land, belonging to the Anangu traditional landowners, who have generously made it available to the public under a 99-year agreement with the NPWS, so they would be quite legally within their rights to lock the gate and tell everyone to bugger off.
Traditionally, only senior men could climb the rock, which is associated with creation myths. The women had their own separate sacred area where men could not go.
So, to put that in perspective, if you wanted to visit a friend's property and the friend told you part of the property was closed and you couldn't go there, would you respect that and do as the friend asked, or would you deliberately ignore the owner's wishes?

On this day: Aboriginal Australians get Uluru back - Australian Geographic (https://www.australiangeographic.com.au/blogs/on-this-day/2013/11/on-this-day-aboriginal-australians-get-uluru-back/)
I disagree with pretty much all of that.
Pickles.

[DiscoMick]

why not?You haven't met them, so they're not your friends and they don't have to respond like friends, as in the previous example. It's a different relationship, like between a landowner and a tourist.

[DiscoMick]

I disagree with pretty much all of that.
Pickles.Disagree all you like, it's all true.

[justinc]

Yeah we all have our own opinions which is great, it's how we treat others with those differing opinions that separates us from the undesirables....

[Pickles2]

Disagree all you like, it's all true.
Definitely NOPE. Might be true in your mind, & indeed others, but many have different opinions, which they are entitled to, and with respect to all the "myth & hearsay" about, means that your version of the truth, or indeed anyone elses, is not necessarily, "The Truth",....it's simply your opinion, what you choose to believe, based on what you've been told/read,.....as is mine.
Pickles.

[Redback]

Funny how people treat this situation differently to other landowners where tourism is allowed and the landowner/farmer restricts access to certain parts of that land for whatever reason and no one bats an eyelid, but NPWS, Native title, forestry or any other body and everyone up in arms.

I'm sure if you owned a large piece of land you wouldn't want people crawling all over it, I know I wouldn't.

The trouble with giving access to people is that as soon as they do some bunch (or individual) of clowns will do damage and over time most will think they have a right to keep going there because(I've been going/doing this for years) attitude comes into play.

Going into/onto someone else's land is not a right, the person who owns that land can do whatever the hell they want with it.

Baz.

[grey_ghost]

Hi Baz,

I am not sure that I agree with your argument there. To me it’s 2 different types of “ownership”

A farmer buys the land, pays taxes, rates, land tax, etc.

[incisor]

A farmer buys the land, pays taxes, rates, land tax, etc.

thats not always the case

lots of people have land that was deeded to them after wars etc etc

do we know that the land at the rock doesn't attract rates of any type etc etc?

or is that just your assumption ?

not that that should matter because if they have been deeded the land for whatever reason it is theirs to do with as they please

but public money shouldn't be being spent on the land if there is no return IMHO.

people is a different kettle of fish....

[DiscoMick]

They agreed, on receiving title, to make the land available to the NPWS under certain conditions, similar to a number of other NPs which ate also leased to the NPWS by the owners.
They have already done the nation a favour by allowing continued access - most landowners just shut the gate.
It's their land.

[DiscoMick]

Definitely NOPE. Might be true in your mind, & indeed others, but many have different opinions, which they are entitled to, and with respect to all the "myth & hearsay" about, means that your version of the truth, or indeed anyone elses, is not necessarily, "The Truth",....it's simply your opinion, what you choose to believe, based on what you've been told/read,.....as is mine.
Pickles.Specifically which statement is not factual? So far you've only offered your opinions.

[Pickles2]

Specifically which statement is not factual? So far you've only offered your opinions.
As have you.
Disco, I'm not going to enter specifics, this matter has been done to death on a previous forum discussion....if you want to know my views, they are there for you to see, as are yours.
As someone has said, we can all have differing views in this great country of ours, it's how we handle those differences which is important, in terms of which which, whilst I disagree with your views, I do respect them, I hope you can say the same.
I'll leave it at that.
Regards, Pickles.

[Saitch]

Many years ago, whilst in W.A., I was looking forward to seeing some very well preserved dinosaur footprints.
Now, these footprints were regarded as sacred by the local people and believed to be something altogether different i.e. the marks from the tears of two giant woman.

Herein lies the quandary.
Do I, as a person interested in the geology/palaeontology of Australia, have the right to inspect and take photos of the tracks or, do I respect the wishes of the "Owners" and steer clear of the place.

Having nice stories to explain about how things came to be because, at the time, the actual causes were unknown, is a common theme across mankind but, should these myths take precedence over the facts?

Footnote: I acquiesced to the wishes of the locals, more out of diplomacy than respect.

[manic]

Herein lies the quandary.
.

Not a quandary if land is not public. You do not have the right to go onto property and take photos. You ask for permission first.

And to quote Pickles above in regards to factual supremacy:



Definitely NOPE. Might be true in your mind, & indeed others, but many have different opinions, which they are entitled to, and with respect to all the "myth & hearsay" about, means that your version of the truth, or indeed anyone elses, is not necessarily, "The Truth",....it's simply your opinion, what you choose to believe, based on what you've been told/read,.....as is mine.


Respect!

[DiscoMick]

As have you.
Disco, I'm not going to enter specifics, this matter has been done to death on a previous forum discussion....if you want to know my views, they are there for you to see, as are yours.
As someone has said, we can all have differing views in this great country of ours, it's how we handle those differences which is important, in terms of which which, whilst I disagree with your views, I do respect them, I hope you can say the same.
I'll leave it at that.
Regards, Pickles.
Differing views are fine.
I thought my posts were factual and I posted a link to support what I said. So, I thought I posted facts about the land ownership and the rights of the owners, as well as the well-known fact that people pee and poop on the rock, which seems disrespectful to me. If someone peed or pooped in Sydney Cathedral it would certainly be offensive.
So, I'd still like to know which thing I posted you consider was an incorrect fact.
My opinion, not presented as a fact, just an opinion, is that some people in society (not referring to anyone in particular) simply refuse to accept that Aboriginal land ownership is valid and go out of their way to disrespect it, in ways they wouldn't consider doing towards other land owners. Walking on Uluru is an example. My opinion.
.

[Saitch]

Not a quandary if land is not public. You do not have the right to go onto property and take photos. You ask for permission first.

And to quote Pickles above in regards to factual supremacy:



Respect!

So, "Fact" and "Fiction" don't come into consideration. If I refer to the "Conspiracy" thread on this forum then what you're stating is that the "Flat Earth Society" is correct?
Is the moon really green cheese? No, we scoff at that but we have to "Believe" that the minerals that make up Rainbow Beach are really the remains of a shattered, rainbow coloured snake? Once again, a nice story but not true!
In my occupation I was privileged to come across or have access to several Aborigine sites and artifacts and never once disrespected any. Quite the contrary. Before modern day requirements in such matters, we contacted the relevant authorities when, in one area of a mining lease, we came across a bora ring, a large fish constructed from rocks and a women's food preparation area, the existence of which was unknown to the locals at the time. These are the things that truly deserve respect.

By the way, the land on which the prints I mentioned is public and access is now available. It was an analogy only.

[Homestar]

So, "Fact" and "Fiction" don't come into consideration. If I refer to the "Conspiracy" thread on this forum then what you're stating is that the "Flat Earth Society" is correct?
Is the moon really green cheese? No, we scoff at that but we have to "Believe" that the minerals that make up Rainbow Beach are really the remains of a shattered, rainbow coloured snake? Once again, a nice story but not true!
In my occupation I was privileged to come across or have access to several Aborigine sites and artifacts and never once disrespected any. Quite the contrary. Before modern day requirements in such matters, we contacted the relevant authorities when, in one area of a mining lease, we came across a bora ring, a large fish constructed from rocks and a women's food preparation area, the existence of which was unknown to the locals at the time. These are the things that truly deserve respect.

By the way, the land on which the prints I mentioned is public and access is now available. It was an analogy only.

Of course not - everyone knows it's cheddar...

[DiscoMick]

What? Not Venezuelan beaver?

[Redback]

Hi Baz,

I am not sure that I agree with your argument there. To me it’s 2 different types of “ownership”

A farmer buys the land, pays taxes, rates, land tax, etc.

That wasn't the point I was trying to get across, more so the owner sets the rules.

Personally I don't see the big deal really, there's a lot of things you can see and not touch, just gotta walk into any museum.

[grey_ghost]

That wasn't the point I was trying to get across, more so the owner sets the rules.

Personally I don't see the big deal really, there's a lot of things you can see and not touch, just gotta walk into any museum.

Or just ask some wives! [wink11]

[DiscoMick]

Art galleries are paranoid about people touching.

[Eevo]

Art galleries are paranoid about people touching.

as is the porn industry.

[ramblingboy42]

Or just ask some wives! [wink11]

this could open an entirely different thread......

[ramblingboy42]

as is the porn industry.

Eevo, how do you know this?

[Eevo]

Eevo, how do you know this?

do you know how many female porn stars drive range rovers!

[ramblingboy42]

no, do you have any names and addresses?

[Eevo]

no, do you have any names and addresses?

a gentleman never tells

[DiscoMick]

do you know how many female porn stars drive range rovers!
Drug dealers seem to favour black Range Rover Sports with heavily-tinted windows.

[Eevo]

Drug dealers seem to favour black Range Rover Sports with heavily-tinted windows.

how do you know this?

[DiscoMick]

TV

[Saitch]

TV

Sorry, Mike. Eevo has trumped you in the "Credibility Stakes" here.[bigsmile1]

[DiscoMick]

Sorry, Mike. Eevo has trumped you in the "Credibility Stakes" here.[bigsmile1]Yes, obviously my area is too poor and working class to have cocaine dealers in Range Rovers. Around here it seems to be blokes selling weed out of the boots of old Camrys. [emoji16]

[V8Ian]

Yes, obviously my area is too poor and working class to have cocaine dealers in Range Rovers. Around here it seems to be blokes selling weed out of the boots of old Camrys. [emoji16]
How much?

[Eevo]

How much?

for the weed or the camary?

[DiscoMick]

I don't buy, so I wouldn't know the price.
Old Camrys are cheap though. Refugees loves old Camrys and Taragos.

[LRJim]

Around here it seems to be blokes selling weed out of the boots of old Camrys. [emoji16]



I don't buy, so I wouldn't know the price.
Old Camrys are cheap though. Refugees loves old Camrys and Taragos.


And you want more of these people here [emoji1]

[DiscoMick]

It's white bogans selling the weed, usually to other white bogans.
I don't know any refugees who use illegal drugs - they hate the stuff.

[justinc]

My goodness the derailment of a decent discussion is almost complete...😑😑😑

[Ean Austral]

My goodness the derailment of a decent discussion is almost complete...😑😑😑

Please dont tell me you are surprised Justin.... [bighmmm][bighmmm][bighmmm]

Cheers Ean

[Eevo]

almost complete...😑😑😑

almost?

did we miss something?

[DiscoMick]

I agree.
Back on topic then.
Don't climb the rock - it's rude to the owners.

[Pickles2]

I agree.
Back on topic then.
Don't climb the rock - it's rude to the owners.
Mate, it appears that you always like to have the "last word", & say something that you've said, & words that we've all heard from you, MANY MANY times before, in fact,.....every time this issue is raised!!!
If I was able, & I was in the area, I would most definitely climb the rock again, ..with the appropriate respect...as I did before.
So, I'll just say again, I disagree with you, & judging by the poll, so do the large majority of this forum.
Pickles.

[trout1105]

I agree.
Back on topic then.
Don't climb the rock - it's rude to the owners.

It's a shame you don't hold the same views about refugees trying to enter Australia against our wishes[bigwhistle]

[jon3950]

Mate, it appears that you always like to have the "last word", & say something that you've said, & words that we've all heard from you, MANY MANY times before, in fact,.....every time this issue is raised!!!
If I was able, & I was in the area, I would most definitely climb the rock again, ..with the appropriate respect...as I did before.
So, I'll just say again, I disagree with you, & judging by the poll, so do the large majority of this forum.
Pickles.

So, serious question. If the owners (traditional or otherwise) have said no, we don't want you to climb it, what would you consider to be appropriate respect?

I for one would like to be able to climb it, but not in a way that ****es off the traditional owners. (The fact that I'll never be able to now anyway is neither here nor there.)

I look at what happens at Lake Mungo and maybe something similar could be adopted at Uluru. You are not allowed to walk on the dunes unless you are on a tour. Sure, someone makes a buck out of it, but so what? There are a lot of people making money out of this country's natural resources. This system stops people wandering all over it and destroying it and hopefully teaches them a thing or two along the way.

[Pickles2]

So, serious question. If the owners (traditional or otherwise) have said no, we don't want you to climb it, what would you consider to be appropriate respect?

I for one would like to be able to climb it, but not in a way that ****es off the traditional owners. (The fact that I'll never be able to now anyway is neither here nor there.)

I look at what happens at Lake Mungo and maybe something similar could be adopted at Uluru. You are not allowed to walk on the dunes unless you are on a tour. Sure, someone makes a buck out of it, but so what? There are a lot of people making money out of this country's natural resources. This system stops people wandering all over it and destroying it and hopefully teaches them a thing or two along the way.
Not a problem at all. I've been to Mungo, did the tour with Aboriginal tour, "Harry Nanya",...would be happy to recommend, & do the same, at the rock.
Pickles.

[4bee]

busloads of Japs seem to have


Tut Tut, [bigsad] Japanese, if you don't mind, according to Arapiles


Cock!

[Roverlord off road spares]

Good decision , no one climbs all over cathedrals or other sacred monuments.

Uluru has been sacred for longer than any recorded history , in fact there would be no older sacred site in the world.

or bikini clad women sun baking on top of tombstones. This happened near Lake Glenmaggie vic

[4bee]

Really? [bigsad]

The look on their faces would have been something to see as an olde bony hand came out of the soil & grabbed them by the thigh or whatever.

Maybe it is just me?[biggrin]

[87County]

This had some potential for satisfying the questionable craving that some people appear to have to climb it, but it ended up a waste of rare, irreplaceable, helium


Battle to bring back controversial Uluru blimp flies into court (https://www.smh.com.au/national/battle-to-bring-back-controversial-uluru-blimp-flies-into-court-20190613-p51xky.html)

[87County]

....

[ramblingboy42]

Tut Tut, [bigsad] Japanese, if you don't mind, according to Arapiles


Cock!

they call us aussies.

[ramblingboy42]

or bikini clad women sun baking on top of tombstones. This happened near Lake Glenmaggie vic

someone always throws in one like this , hahaha


wheres the photo?

[4bee]

Some nationalities even call us 'Kangaroos'. I don't mind, me being unique & all. [smilebigeye]

[RANDLOVER]

People want to climb the rock because other feats are denied them, like climbing Everest. I agree with "Roy & H.G." the reason for this is, selfishness, on the part all the people climbing Everest these days (there are actually queues hundreds of feet long to get to the top) , if each of them just took one brick or paving stone with them and left it up there, we would all be able to drive to the top.

[loanrangie]

I agree.
Back on topic then.
Don't climb the rock - it's rude to the owners.I was born here, I own it too.

[101RRS]

I was born here, I own it too.

No you don't - I was born here too and I have no claim over your land or house.

[Eevo]

No you don't - I was born here too and I have no claim over your land or house.


so why do they?

[trout1105]

I believe that the ban on climbing the rock has more to do with politics than it has to do with "Culture" or safety.

[loanrangie]

so why do they?Exactly , its on public land so well all own it.

[101RRS]

Exactly , its on public land so well all own it.

But it is not on public land - now on private land, aboriginal land.

When did Uluru-Kata Tjuta become a national park? Ayers Rock (which we now call Uluru) was first declared a national park in 1950.
In 1958, both Ayers Rock and Mount Olga (now Kata Tjuta) were excised from an Aboriginal reserve to form the Ayers Rock–Mt Olga National Park. The park’s name was changed to Uluru and Kata Tjuta (Ayers Rock–Mt Olga) National Park in 1977.
In 1985, after more than 35 years of campaigning, Anangu were recognised as the traditional owners of the park and handed back the deeds to their homelands.


The park was officially renamed Uluru-Kata Tjuta National Park in 1993.



Who owns Uluru and Kata Tjuta? Anangu own Uluru and Kata Tjuta and lease the land to the Australian Government.

Parks Australia and Anangu work together as partners, jointly managing the national park.

[Ean Austral]

Its actually a national park in the Northern territory ,which is under the rule of the commonwealth ,so my simple brain tells me its crown land. - happy to be proven wrong.

You are charged a fee to enter the national park , I have no doubt taxpayer funds are used to maintain the area , yet you are told the part in the middle that you came to see is owned by someone else and they will tell you what you can and cant do ... It isn't a dwelling or something that has been man made , its something made by nature , so for my simple brain its totally different to a house, church, etc etc

The rock has been trodden over by tourists for decades, poles have been hammered into it and a chain hand rail has been erected , so I guess for all intents it has been vandalised , and yet a date to stop people accessing the climb is somehow going to cure the past....mmmm

My 2c worth is there would be more benefit if tourist groups or anyone wishing to climb it has to watch a video , or even better, sit in on a talk by the local people as to why its sacred and explain their beliefs and educate people , both from within Australia and overseas, then ask that their wishes to not climb it be respected. It could also be used to pass on the story of the land to the younger generations of people

I think this would be a far better approach and would go along way towards both educating and closing the gap between indigenous and non indigenous people. The current approach is just broadening the gap , as you only need to read this thread to see that its not seen as a popular way forward. It reeks of the us / them which I am sure is not the local people's intention at all , its a political / media football which I am sure people with agendas will use to drive their point.

For me , I been there about 5 or 6 times and in my younger days was too lazy to be bothered to climb it , and not sure if I would climb it if I went back , but I would like to hear first hand why I shouldn't climb it instead of a sign saying its closed to climbing.

This is my own view personal view , so OK let me have it.[bigrolf][thumbsupbig]

Cheers Ean

[Saitch]

You can climb Mount Ararat.

I'll leave it at that as I don't want to start a yike of biblical proportions![bigsmile1]

[Eevo]

You can climb Mount Ararat.

I'll leave it at that as I don't want to start a yike of biblical proportions![bigsmile1]


if you need help, i noah a guy.

[DiscoMick]

It's owned by the Anungu. None of us own it, just them.
Our government has leased it from them for 99 years, under certain conditions.
It would be interesting to the terms of the lease. What behavior would give the Anungu the legal power to declare that Australian society had breached the terms of the lease, voided it and would allow the Anungu to repudiate the lease and shut the gate?

[DiscoMick]

So, answered my own question.
It's a 90 year lease with payment of $150,000 a year upfront plus 25% of entrance fees and other charges.
The NPWS agrees to protect areas of significance to the Anungu.
The Anungu can request any area of the park to be closed for traditional purposes.
So, to summarize, we should be grateful that climbing Uluru, which is a senior men's sacred area, has been allowed for as long as it has been.
Painful as it may be for some people to admit, the fact is they own it, not us.

ATNS - Agreements, Treaties and Negotiated Settlements project (https://www.atns.net.au/agreement.asp?EntityID=526)

[alien]

Not a problem at all. I've been to Mungo, did the tour with Aboriginal tour, "Harry Nanya",...would be happy to recommend, & do the same, at the rock.
Pickles.
I can rember when access to the lunette at Mungo was open to all day visitors. Certainly a few people climbed the wind weathered features but with no signage most didn’t know better. Now we pay for access on top of the Parks fees.
I can see in the future guided tours being offered to climb Uluru.
indigenous tourism is becoming a dollar driven industry IMO.

[67hardtop]

Like the native american casino's??

[davros]

Good decision , no one climbs all over cathedrals or other sacred monuments.

Uluru has been sacred for longer than any recorded history , in fact there would be no older sacred site in the world.

But you can climb up stairways etc. in cathedrals and stomp all over many sacred places. Even mosques! But admittedly they all have off-limits areas...

[davros]

I can rember when access to the lunette at Mungo was open to all day visitors. Certainly a few people climbed the wind weathered features but with no signage most didn’t know better. Now we pay for access on top of the Parks fees.
I can see in the future guided tours being offered to climb Uluru.
indigenous tourism is becoming a dollar driven industry IMO.

Ha. I visited Mungo as a kid, parents driving a Nissan Prairie! There was not even any open public knowledge of the importance then; we just walked everywhere looking for bones, as we knew from contacts that the area was ‘special’. We didn’t try or intend to disturb or take anything though. Now of course everything is controlled... but for good reason.

[Saitch]

The Aboriginal migration into Australia was around 60 thousand years ago. "Uluru" is around 600 million years old, therefore, for around 599,940,000 years it was just a rock and not at all sacred!
What is this fuss all about, really?

[DiscoMick]

True, but they were still here well before us, so have a prior claim.

[Pickles2]

True, but they were still here well before us, so have a prior claim.
You are entitled to your opinion Disco, which as I have said, I respect, but I totally disagree with you.
Pickles.

[manic]

Aboriginal settlement at 60 - 125 thousand years

European settlement: 232 years

Show a bit of respect maybe?

William Gosse only stumbled across it 146 years ago - and suddenly it's a bloomin theme park!

The rock is being closed to climbers because of cultural sensitivities, high traffic errosion and loss of human life which is no doubt taking its toll on the community that lives there. When you visit somewhere away from home, is it too hard to show the locals some respect?

As a tourist, you don't NEED to climb the rock. Uluru is a stunner, and you can't see it if you are standing right on top of it.

[Eevo]

True, but they were still here well before us, so have a prior claim.


why is it a claim? why cant it be owned by everyone?

[manic]

why is it a claim? why cant it be owned by everyone?You're sounding native now.

Pre european settlement it was 'owned' by everyone.

[Eevo]

You're sounding native now.

Pre european settlement it was 'owned' by everyone.


yet they are not doing the same now.
a bit hypercritical of them.

[101RRS]

Pre european settlement it was 'owned' by everyone.

No it wasn't - was "owned" by the clan that "owned" the land that the rock was on - for sure the land was not owned in the Western sense of deeds and mortgages etc but it was owned by the local people. See what would have happened if a member from another clan outside the area was caught on the land (without an invitation) let alone if that member climbed the rock without invitation.

Sorry, despite other claims, indigenous people did possess (own) land - not as individuals but at a tribal level - the ownership and boundaries were just expressed differently to Western society.

Now I completely disagree with the decision and is an opportunity lost by the traditional owners to make the climb culturally sensitive and providing a chance to inform and educate visitors on their culture.

Garry

[manic]

Correct, not ownership as we know it. More like residency. Back then, if you wandered into a settlement you could try to show appropriate respect and communicate your intentions.

That changed when the British claimed it all for the Queen, imposed their rule of law, and shot down any resistance.

Now we ignore and avoid them, climb Ayers Rock, take the photo, have a beer and go home.

If Aboriginal communities are living on land that they have occupied for thousands of years then that can be recognised by law.

And with legal rights, why shouldnt they push through local regulations that are in their communities best interests? Hardly any one else appears to give a **** about them.

If they don't want tourists that ridicule their culture coming in by the coach load, climbing and ****ting about the place - could the local authorities shut it all down? It would be great if they did, for a short while at least. But I doubt they can.

If the locals say climbing is not culturally sensitive, how can you say they missed an opportunity by not offering culturally sensitive climbs?

They have taken their opportunity, the rock ride is getting shut down!

[DiscoMick]

No, it was ownership. They had accounts of their local history, they jealously guarded their boundaries and they had defined trading routes and procedures for contacts between tribes. It was ownership. The High Court has settled this. Its not in dispute.

[101RRS]

If they don't want tourists that ridicule their culture coming in by the coach load, climbing and ****ting about the place - could the local authorities shut it all down? It would be great if they did, for a short while at least. But I doubt they can.

Actually I think most tourists and most Australians do not ridicule the genuine culture and actually respect it - I think they do ridicule those that exist in any group who use the situation to further their own agenda.

[Eevo]

respect is a two way street.

https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/db16be63fea692bbf44a6d3e69f04f54

[bblaze]

respect is a two way street.

https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/db16be63fea692bbf44a6d3e69f04f54

seen white fellows leave more mess after a gathering, afl game, ruby game, the races, beach party
cheers
blaze

[trout1105]

seen white fellows leave more mess after a gathering, afl game, ruby game, the races, beach party
cheers
blaze

I very much doubt that too many "White Fella's" would desecrate a War memorial like that Unless of course they are recent arrivals. [bigwhistle]

[Pickles2]

I very much doubt that too many "White Fella's" would desecrate a War memorial like that Unless of course they are recent arrivals. [bigwhistle]
I would very much like to agree with you my friend, but I can't, unfortunately in Melbourne I regularly see "people", commonly described as "scum" desecrating Aussie in all sorts of ways, & they don't look like "new arrivals" to me.
I know what you mean by "new arrivals", & for sure they do some crap, but some Aussies are in the same boat.
Pickles.

[RANDLOVER]

From the pic it looks like the culprits left in a hurry, hopefully they heard they were about to be arrested.

[4bee]

From the pic it looks like the culprits left in a hurry, hopefully they heard they were about to be arrested.


I agree. They even left a 5c deposit bottle behind so must have in a hurry & what about the wine cask, it must have been empty..[smilebigeye]

[W&KO]

seen white fellows leave more mess after a gathering, afl game, ruby game, the races, beach party
cheers
blaze

Re: AFL, Rugby and The Races your entry fee covers cleaning the venue.....not really comparing Apple with Apples.

Funny how it can be skewed out of prospective pretty quick.

[DiscoMick]

Don't memorials get cleaned?

[DiscoMick]

Uluru inundated with human waste as tourists flock to the rock ahead of its closure
Uluru climb closure looms as region nears breaking point with overflow of tourists, 'influx of waste' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-10/uluru-climb-closure-breaking-point-overflow-tourists-waste/11296256)

[Eevo]

Uluru inundated with human waste as tourists flock to the rock ahead of its closure

because the park hasn't provided adequate facilities. this isnt rocket science.

[Tote]

Yep, I'd have to agree, even when we went there 6 years ago the whole area was geared around extracting the maximum amount of money from visitors by limiting services and places to stay. Mix that with a deadline and no additional preparation and I would say that it is simply a case of poor planning.

Regards,
Tote

[Xtreme]

Uluru inundated with human waste as tourists flock to the rock ahead of its closure
Uluru climb closure looms as region nears breaking point with overflow of tourists, 'influx of waste' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-10/uluru-climb-closure-breaking-point-overflow-tourists-waste/11296256)

... remember the ... :rulez:

I didn't happen without pictures !

[DiscoMick]

Why can't people just take better care of their waste, instead of behaving like pigs?
It's not hard to fit a rubbish bag to your spare wheel carrier, put a plastic bag inside and take out your rubbish with you.
And scattering toilet paper is just disgusting.

[Eevo]

take out your rubbish with you.

if that the case, they can drop the entry fee's. unfair to pay for services not provided.

[DiscoMick]

Or people can just stop behaving like pigs and be responsible for their own rubbish, instead of expecting others to clean up after them.

[DiscoMick]

Tourists flock to climb Uluru before it closes, ignoring wishes of traditional owners
Tourists flock to climb Uluru before it closes, ignoring wishes of traditional owners | SBS News (https://www.sbs.com.au/news/tourists-flock-to-climb-uluru-before-it-closes-ignoring-wishes-of-traditional-owners?cid=newsapp:socialshare:copylink)

[Ean Austral]

Tourists flock to climb Uluru before it closes, ignoring wishes of traditional owners
Tourists flock to climb Uluru before it closes, ignoring wishes of traditional owners | SBS News (https://www.sbs.com.au/news/tourists-flock-to-climb-uluru-before-it-closes-ignoring-wishes-of-traditional-owners?cid=newsapp:socialshare:copylink)


And ……. what did they think would happen. I cant believe anyone is surprised by this.[tonguewink][tonguewink]


Cheers Ean

[Arch]

The satirical article below may have been inspired by thread like this:

"Refugees Won't Respect Our Culture," Says Puffing Talkback Radio Listener Halfway Up Uluru — The Betoota Advocate (https://www.betootaadvocate.com/uncategorized/refugees-wont-respect-our-culture-says-puffing-talkback-radio-listener-halfway-up-uluru/)

[4bee]

Or people can just stop behaving like pigs and be responsible for their own rubbish, instead of expecting others to clean up after them.

Not just Uluru either, everywhere you go. Bad parenting I reckon.[bigsad]

[LRT]

Not just Ayers Rock...

Grampians rock-climbing ban: Indigenous group says heritage is 'non-negotiable' | Australia news | The Guardian (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/jul/02/grampians-rock-climbing-ban-could-be-softened-if-cultural-heritage-respected)

[DiscoMick]

It's pretty simple. They own it, so they can decide if it's open or closed.
You can bet some turkeys like Blair Cottrell will try to ignore the ban on climbing and spout some rubbish about them being indigenous because they were born here and have a right of access.
Maybe they should have the rangers and police there on the first day its closed to fine/arrest anyone who tries to ignore the ban on climbing.

[4bee]

Not just Ayers Rock...

Grampians rock-climbing ban: Indigenous group says heritage is 'non-negotiable' | Australia news | The Guardian (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/jul/02/grampians-rock-climbing-ban-could-be-softened-if-cultural-heritage-respected)



If you like. I don't have a problem with the name as it is famous throughout the world by both names.

What I do have a problem with, is the way Councils here use two names for local parks & features etc which as kids, we grew up with, with just one name.

Confusing? Yep.

[happycry]

[Redback]

The satirical article below may have been inspired by thread like this:

"Refugees Won't Respect Our Culture," Says Puffing Talkback Radio Listener Halfway Up Uluru — The Betoota Advocate (https://www.betootaadvocate.com/uncategorized/refugees-wont-respect-our-culture-says-puffing-talkback-radio-listener-halfway-up-uluru/)

What a hypocrite:eek2:

[LRT]

If you like. I don't have a problem with the name as it is famous throughout the world by both names.

What I do have a problem with, is the way Councils here use two names for local parks & features etc which as kids, we grew up with, with just one name.

Confusing? Yep.

[happycry]

Kati-Thanda (Lake Eyre) & Ikara-Flinders Ranges are a few more. [biggrin]

[4bee]

What a hypocrite:eek2:

Just an aside, but WTF is he carrying in his sac or did he plan on staying for a week or two. Stove, Canned & dried foods, set of oil skins, spare boots, refrigerator, pressure cooker etc, etc. ???

No wonder he was puffing & panting 1/3 of the way up. I would have thought he would have just stripped down to his BONDS briefs & a plastic (OOOOOOO dirty word [smilebigeye]) lunch box.[biggrin]



LRT. Yep that sort of ****.

[Redback]

Kati-Thanda (Lake Eyre) & Ikara-Flinders Ranges are a few more. [biggrin]

I actually prefer the indigenous names.

[DiscoMick]

I actually prefer the indigenous names.So do I. They have more meaning than some random pommy's names stuck on some place they never even visited by an explorer sucking up to his patron.

[V8Ian]

At least we can pronounce and spell, in the main, the Pommie names.

[Eevo]

At least we can pronounce and spell, in the main, the Pommie names.

the only aboriginal name i know how to pronounce properly is the name kylie. haha

[Arch]

So do I. They have more meaning than some random pommy's names stuck on some place they never even visited by an explorer sucking up to his patron.

Or boringly obvious names like Deep Creek, Big Hole or Snowy Mtns.

Indigenous names are far more interesting.

[Saitch]

So do I. They have more meaning than some random pommy's names stuck on some place they never even visited by an explorer sucking up to his patron.

Not always sucking up. Captain John Stokes, of HMS Beagle, named the Flinders River in honour of one Matthew Flinders.[biggrin]

[101RRS]

Or boringly obvious names like Deep Creek, Big Hole or Snowy Mtns.

Western Australia, South Australia, Northern Territory - yes we should be more imaginative.

[V8Ian]

Not always sucking up. Captain John Stokes, of HMS Beagle, named the Flinders River in honour of one Matthew Flinders.[biggrin]
Store that morsel of wisdom away for trivia night. Are you taking notes, Pedro?

[Redback]

Not always sucking up. Captain John Stokes, of HMS Beagle, named the Flinders River in honour of one Matthew Flinders.

Aaaah Mathew Flinders a great explorer and man, named our country Australia, but he has another feather in his cap.

[B]Explorer Captain Matthew Flinders first used the word Australians in reference to Yolngu people in Top End

[DiscoMick]

Logan is named after Captain Logan, who was a well-known persecutor of the local Aborigines.
Can anyone spell the name of our highest mountain?

[LRT]

Logan is named after Captain Logan, who was a well-known persecutor of the local Aborigines.
Can anyone spell the name of our highest mountain?

Polish I believe? Kosciuszko.

[V8Ian]

Logan is named after Captain Logan, who was a well-known persecutor of the local Aborigines.
Can anyone spell the name of our highest mountain?
Bartle Frere. [bigwhistle]

[Hogarthde]

Simple to spell........Big Ben is the highest mountain in Australia, put that in your trivia Ian

And I reckon none of us landlubbers have ever seen Big Ben , perhaps Navy Diver?

[Hogarthde]

Simple to spell........Big Ben is the highest mountain in Australia, put that in your trivia Ian

[101RRS]

Simple to spell........Big Ben is the highest mountain in Australia,

Nope - wrong - Mount McClintock is the highest.

[vnx205]

Mawson Peak

[V8Ian]

Simple to spell........Big Ben is the highest mountain in Australia, put that in your trivia Ian

And I reckon none of us landlubbers have ever seen Big Ben , perhaps Navy Diver?
Cool. [wink11]

[4bee]

And I reckon none of us landlubbers have ever seen Big Ben , perhaps Navy Diver?


Why so? Is it an undersea mountain?[biggrin]

[austastar]

Hi,
Mostly shrouded in cloud, not too many blue sky days down there.

-53.100071,73.554060


Cheers

[W&KO]

Just wondering, what if gates were put up at all roads entering all areas where native title has been given to our indigenous people.....and on the day they can change access requirements like what happens now at Uluru. Would make planning a trip near impossible, one could drive around Australia and not leave the hi-way.

Fees, would they be more or less than current fees?

Food for thought.....given the owners are in the drivers seat.

[DiscoMick]

There is a 99 year agreement between the traditional owners and the NPWS for access to the land, so I'm sure the gates won't be closed, but the rest of us need to learn to respect the rights of traditional owners, instead of treating them as optional.

[DiscoMick]

We can't climb Uluru?? But we have larrikin spirit coming out our mateholes

We can't climb Uluru?? But we have larrikin spirit coming out our mateholes | First Dog on the Moon | Opinion | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/12/we-cant-climb-uluru-but-we-have-larrikin-spirit-coming-out-our-mateholes?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[Pickles2]

There is a 99 year agreement between the traditional owners and the NPWS for access to the land, so I'm sure the gates won't be closed, but the rest of us need to learn to respect the rights of traditional owners, instead of treating them as optional.
Incorrect Disco my friend, but that is your opinion to which you are entitled, and as I've said to you before I disagree with, as do, according to the poll on this thread, the majority of the members who've read this thread.
A well known media personality I heard just last night, who was absolutely in favor of climbing said that when He climbed, "he felt a profound real connection to the land, and bound to the country" (as I did when I climbed). He was definitely NOT in favor of the ban,..."bans here,...bans there, bans somewhere else" etc etc etc. "Is this what reconciliation is all about"? he said. He also showed a film from 1946, believed to be the first of its type & one of the only originals from so early a date showing an aboriginal major elder climbing the rock with two Europeans showing no displeasure at all, simply happy to tell the Euro men all about it,.....Isn't that a "better way"? He said,..Well, in my opinion Disco, it is.
He suggested that a good sign of real "reconciliation" would be for the ban to be changed, and I agree. "Bans"?....bringing us "together",...a sign of "reconciliation"?...I don't think so.
Now, with respect to your comments about "litter" etc in the area, of course I agree 1000%, so would any sane person. However, I have not heard of, or seen, any mention of any substantial littering on the rock itself, so if you have anything of a substantial nature in that regard to show, I'd like to see it, also adding of course that those guilty of such an offence should be severely punished.
"Dumping of rubbish" is not confined to Uluru either, being a DISGRACEFUL disrespectful blight in just about every area of Aus,....and it's everywhere,...just look at any facility after a major event,...it's simply disgusting, and unfortunately, and no doubt in this case, it will fall upon those controlling the area, rightly or wrongly, to clean it up, as it does everywhere else.
Pickles.

[4bee]

Hi,
Mostly shrouded in cloud, not too many blue sky days down there.

-53.100071,73.554060


Cheers


A bit like the Adelaide Hills this Winter in fact. [bigsad]

Probably a bit hot under foot to boot as well. Unlike the Adelaide Hills.[smilebigeye]


What P2 said ^^ & reconciliation has to work both ways surely, imho.

[67hardtop]

Have any of you guys ever been out to an isolated aboriginal community?? You know when ur getting close to it by the amount of RUBBISH and car bodies strewn everywhere. They dont believe they need to pick up their own rubbish. Quote.."Some white fella will come along and do it", Un quote. So why not discuss that???

[LRT]

Have any of you guys ever been out to an isolated aboriginal community?? You know when ur getting close to it by the amount of RUBBISH and car bodies strewn everywhere. They dont believe they need to pick up their own rubbish. Quote.."Some white fella will come along and do it", Un quote. So why not discuss that???

Framingham Forest Trust in Victoria is strewn with trashed and burnt out cars.

[DiscoMick]

'Time they learn about the way we see it,' Uluru custodian says of critics
Uluru custodian says it is time climb closure critics 'learn about the way we see it' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-22/uluru-climb-closure-chance-to-learn-rom-traditional-owners/11335086)

[Arapiles]

Framingham Forest Trust in Victoria is strewn with trashed and burnt out cars.

So are big parts of western and northern Melbourne - so what's your point?

[Arapiles]

Mongrel!

I did climb almost to the top of the Great Wall when in Beijing a few weeks back.
The higher one got, the fewer the climbers on the Wall. By the time I turned around (ran out of time and had to get back to bus), there were only 3 other people up there.

The section of the "wall" they take tourists to was mostly rebuilt in the 1950s - and it looks like they went to Bunnings to get some pavers. If, when you're driving to that site, you have a look up on the ridges of the mountains you're passing you'll see the remnants of the wall that weren't so helpfully restored.

[DiscoMick]

The section of the "wall" they take tourists to was mostly rebuilt in the 1950s - and it looks like they went to Bunnings to get some pavers. If, when you're driving to that site, you have a look up on the ridges of the mountains you're passing you'll see the remnants of the wall that weren't so helpfully restored.
I've been there and it is certainly impressive, but I've also read about how most of the wall's 5000 kilometres (there are actually several walls) are in ruins.

[4bee]

So, Made in China is not necessarily a good thing, right? [smilebigeye]

[DiscoMick]

It's an impressive wall, if walls are your thing.

[Eevo]

'Time they learn about the way we see it,' Uluru custodian says of critics
Uluru custodian says it is time climb closure critics 'learn about the way we see it' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-22/uluru-climb-closure-chance-to-learn-rom-traditional-owners/11335086)

aka: forcing someones culture onto someone else.

[4bee]

It's an impressive wall, if walls are your thing.


They are, Walls Ice Cream.[smilebigeye]

[ramblingboy42]

aka: forcing someones culture onto someone else.

Karma.......

[Eevo]

Karma.......

two wrongs dont make a right.

[DiscoMick]

White invaders forced their culture onto the indigenous.

[trout1105]

White invaders forced their culture onto the indigenous.

Do 2 wrongs make it right Mick[bigwhistle]

[DiscoMick]

They're not forcing anything onto us. We want to visit their land, so we have to respect their wishes as owners if we want them to do us a favour and let us visit. Otherwise, they can just shut the gate and tell us all to bugger off.

[Robmacca]

Well... just got back from visiting the rock and wow... what a line up of people to climb the rock!!! We had the chance b4 we left and we took it and I'm glad I did... it was fantastic!!! It will be a shame to close it and I still think its more of a political move than a Traditional Owner request... Time will tell if closing it will have an effect but seeing the crowds, I reckon it will

[Pickles2]

Well... just got back from visiting the rock and wow... what a line up of people to climb the rock!!! We had the chance b4 we left and we took it and I'm glad I did... it was fantastic!!! It will be a shame to close it and I still think its more of a political move than a Traditional Owner request... Time will tell if closing it will have an effect but seeing the crowds, I reckon it will
Agree 100%
I climbed it when I was in my fifties, couldn't do it now, but it was one of the best things I've ever done, and something that my wife & I will remember for the rest of our lives.
I can remember (& still see it in my mind) standing at the top, looking around the incredible 360 degree view, seeing the Olgas in the distance, through the red mist, & wondering at the great country we live in,...You probably felt the same way.
Many of my friends have climbed, I don't know anyone, who's actually climbed it, who feels any different.
Consequently I would advise anyone, who is even just thinking about it, just do it, I guarantee that it will be one of the best experiences of your life, and one that you will remember forever. My memory is not too flash, but I'll never forget.
One thing I would say, is that when we climbed, there weren't that many people about, so we had a bit of solitude, so if you can find a time when there are fewer climbers, (is that possible now?), that's when I'd be doing it.
Best make up your mind quickly,'cause you ain't got much time.
Pickles.

[DiscoMick]

Indigenous elder calls for closure of Aboriginal tourist attractions pending better deal for traditional owners - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-01/closing-cultural-sites-a-must-according-to-indigenous-elder/11373622)

[4bee]

You can see where this is heading.[bigsad]

[DiscoMick]

Yes, it's pretty clear.

[Pickles2]

Yes, it's pretty clear.
G'Day Disco, I'm dumb!!!....so what is "pretty clear"?
Pickles.

[Arapiles]

Well... just got back from visiting the rock and wow... what a line up of people to climb the rock!!! We had the chance b4 we left and we took it and I'm glad I did... it was fantastic!!! It will be a shame to close it and I still think its more of a political move than a Traditional Owner request... Time will tell if closing it will have an effect but seeing the crowds, I reckon it will

It was only due to local politics - pressure from tour operators apparently - that the climb wasn't closed decades ago.

And it's very much a traditional owner request, as the signage should've made clear.

[trout1105]

Indigenous elder calls for closure of Aboriginal tourist attractions pending better deal for traditional owners - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-01/closing-cultural-sites-a-must-according-to-indigenous-elder/11373622)

It's all about the Money Mick.

[DiscoMick]

G'Day Disco, I'm dumb!!!....so what is "pretty clear"?
Pickles.The owners want a better deal.

[Eevo]

The owners want a better deal.
And so do I.

[Pickles2]

The owners want a better deal.
What do you mean by "a better deal",.... specifically?,...what would any "better deal" involve/comprise etc?
Pickles.

[DiscoMick]

I'm not an owner. Why don't we ask them? That would be a big change from past practices.

[Pickles2]

I'm not an owner. Why don't we ask them? That would be a big change from past practices.
C'Mon Disco, you said, and I quote, "The owners want a better deal". So, just inform me precisely, what YOU mean by that. What, in your mind would constitute a "better deal", and a resolution to this issue?
I'm not asking "them" or anyone else, I'm asking you.
I ask you this acknowledging that we both know of course that we have 100% opposing views on the climbing issue
Pickles.

[rick130]

C'Mon Disco, you said, and I quote, "The owners want a better deal". So, just inform me precisely, what YOU mean by that. What, in your mind would constitute a "better deal", and a resolution to this issue?
I'm not asking "them" or anyone else, I'm asking you.
I ask you this acknowledging that we both know of course that we have 100% opposing views on the climbing issue
Pickles.I'm not Michael, but how about we consult our indigenous cousins on what they need instead of the paternalistic and throw bulk money at it approach currently employed?

Oh that's right, we had the Uluru Statement totally ignored so not much hope of that.

[4bee]

But but but, they love the money & just probably want more, Ricardo.

[DiscoMick]

I'm not here to talk for them. They can speak for themselves.

[Pickles2]

I'm not here to talk for them. They can speak for themselves.
Fair enough Disco, but you speak for them all the time, which is why I asked you.
Pickles.

[Eevo]

I'm not an owner.
are you not an australian?

[Eevo]

I'm not here to talk for them.

well thats a first.

[DiscoMick]

I'd like to think I sometimes speak about interesting things I've learned about them, but I wouldn't presume to speak for them, or anyone else. Hopefully...

[bob10]

Here are 5 good reasons.

5 reasons why you shouldn't climb Uluru | NITV (https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/2017/10/26/5-reasons-why-you-shouldnt-climb-uluru)

[Eevo]

Here are 5 good reasons.

5 reasons why you shouldn't climb Uluru | NITV (https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/2017/10/26/5-reasons-why-you-shouldnt-climb-uluru)


none of those were good and #3 is a flat out lie.

[DiscoMick]

Thanks Bob. I agree with all five reasons. As for number 3, if 30 people have died in 32 years of climbing, that certainly makes it dangerous.

[Saitch]

"Also in Egypt, there was a religion that worshipped the Sun
directly, and was among the first monotheistic religions: Atenism. Sun worship
was prevalent in ancient Egyptian religion. The earliest deities associated with the Sun
are all goddesses: Wadjet, Sekhmet, Hathor, Nut, Bast, Bat, and Menhit."

Wow, imagine the money the descendants of these people could make by charging us earthlings a fee for using "Their Sun" as it was part of their culture!
Oh, hang on, we know that the sun is just that, a "Sun", nothing more, nothing less, although one would have to admit that it plays a far more important role in mankind's existence than a large, sandstone rock protruding from the ground.

Considering the geological time frame in which the rock has existed the pettiness of the whole thing is ludicrous.
Ah, well, time to calm down and have a nice, cold can of "Rat Sars"!

[DiscoMick]

RA the Egyptian sun god was a bit of a dude, but at 25 centuries BC he was a late comer compared with Aboriginal beliefs, which go back at least 60,000 years.

Ra - Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra)

[bob10]

Thanks Bob. I agree with all five reasons. As for number 3, if 30 people have died in 32 years of climbing, that certainly makes it dangerous.

35 reported deaths, but it is such a pointless exercise. And it all grew out of a marketing ploy by tourism Australia, to get Australians to spend more of their tourism dollar at home. A much more interesting exercise is to take a guided tour around the bottom of the rock, learning something of the indigenous culture while you are at it. Besides, anyone in the know goes to Kings Canyon, a much better walk.

A Strange, Sad History of People Climbing Uluru - VICE (https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/bj5xn8/the-strange-sad-history-of-people-climbing-uluru)

[Eevo]

Thanks Bob. I agree with all five reasons. As for number 3, if 30 people have died in 32 years of climbing, that certainly makes it dangerous.


we better ban driving a car then....

[Saitch]

............and snow fields.

Deaths associated with skiing in Australia: a 32-year study of cases from the Snowy Mountains.Sherry E (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/'term=Sherry%20E%5BAuthor%5D&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=3200188)1, Clout L (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/'term=Clout%20L%5BAuthor%5D&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=3200188).
Author information (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3200188#)

AbstractWe present the first study of skiing-related deaths in Australia--a 32-year study of skiing-related deaths in the Snowy Mountains. We have reported 29 such cases; eight subjects died of trauma, 15 subjects died of cardiovascular causes, and six subjects died of hypothermia. The over-all incidence of death was 0.87 deaths per million skier-days; the specific incidence for trauma-related deaths was 0.24 deaths per million skier-days; for cardiac-related deaths was 0.45 deaths per million skier-days; and for hypothermia-related deaths was 0.18 deaths per million skier-days. These findings compare most-favourably with US figures. Death that is associated with skiing in the Snowy Mountains is a rare event.

[Homestar]

we better ban driving a car then....

Yeah, I bet a lot more than 35 people have died just trying to drive to Uluru, let alone the 1000’s of others on the roads nationally over the same period.

[Homestar]

And Horses have killed over 70 people in the last 10 years... 😇

[DiscoMick]

And the flu is expected to kill more than 4000 Aussies this year, about 4 times the death toll from road crashes. So, what other irrelevant statistics can we drag in?
It's pretty simple, really. They own it, and they've banned us from climbing it, so let's just get over it and move on.

[Eevo]

So, what other irrelevant statistics can we drag in?


deaths from dropbear attacks.

[DiscoMick]

Carpets are deadly, too.

Slipping and tripping: fall injuries in adults associated with rugs and carpets (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3591732/)

[emoji16]

[Homestar]

And the flu is expected to kill more than 4000 Aussies this year, about 4 times the death toll from road crashes. So, what other irrelevant statistics can we drag in?
It's pretty simple, really. They own it, and they've banned us from climbing it, so let's just get over it and move on.

Agree 100% mate, my little interludes were just in fun. I agree wholeheartedly on the ban and I would never have climbed it even if I could or had the opportunity even before this was put in motion. 👍

[67hardtop]

I recall a baby died there too and she wasnt even trying to climb the rock...some dingo was eventually to blame for that....or so ive heard. Id love to climb ayres rock...hell id drive my series up there if i could

[bob10]

We camped there not long after the incident, my first impression was the number of the meanest , hungriest looking camp dogs in the area. Having been brought up on a sheep station in central Qld., I'm aware of what a dingo can be capable of, especially with new born lambs. Not saying it didn't happen, but with the poor food security some of the campers showed, if a dog did it, looking for an easy meal, my money would be on those camp dogs. Probably wrong, but that shows just how polarising the incident was at the time. The dingo would have been capable of it, if given the chance, just couldn't see one getting past those camp dogs. As I said, probably wrong.

We decided not to climb. A personal choice, formed by a book by Charles P Mountford, [ O.B.E., M.A.Litt.{Adelaide}Dip. Anthropol. { Cantab. }Hon. D. Litt. { Melb}] called Ayers Rock, It's people, their beliefs and their Art. From the cover- " Mountford lived and travelled with the men and women of the Pitjandjara tribe , studied their way of life, and learnt how closely it was linked to their surroundings. How the natural features of the rock were all explained by the deeds of their mythical heroes at the time of creation." We used the book when we walked the perimeter of the Rock, to help explain some of the sites. It wasn't until much later that I realised we probably encroached on some sacred site , through our ignorance. Just as bad as those climbing through their ignorance. Now I believe Aboriginal guides will take people around carefully explaining those sites taboo to women, as well as men. A much better experience, to have the Pitjandjara people involved . I will go back, to partake in that experience, after all, that's why we do it , isn't it? to gain enlightenment, anything other than that is pointless.

[rick130]

[Snip]
after all, that's why we do it , isn't it? to gain enlightenment, anything other than that is pointless.That's how I try and approach most everything now.
Not always successfully, but thankfully the ego driven ambition has dropped with age.

[bblaze]

I have done Uluru, not the climb but the walk around the base. The spoiler for me were all the tour groups at the time. It was for me a better experience when there was no one about and I was by myself just to ponder. Could have climbed but didn't. I enjoyed the Olga's so much more as I had less people I had to tolerate. There is something special about these places if only we let our minds be open and think
cheers
blaze

[Robmacca]

Well.... Who saw the A Current Affairs Story on climbing The Rock ???

Thoughts...

[Homestar]

Didn't know a current affair (or FTA TV for that matter) was still a thing... [emoji57]

[V8Ian]

Well.... Who saw the A Current Affairs Story on climbing The Rock ???

Thoughts...
My hand's up. Most were pretty disrespectful IMO.

[W&KO]

I cannot remember the last time I watched ACA...downloaded the app and just watched it.

It wasn’t much of a story and poor journalism as I expected

Unless I watched the wrong story the owners agreed to meet Pauline and the two brothers (senior owners) gave Pauline their approval for her to climb, based on that no disrespect. Off course providing there was no creative journalism.

The interview of the four young girl was always going to make them look bad, not local, not enough life experience. Comments like home is England and they are working with the locals. They appeared to be wait staff, they may hang out with the local after work although the resort staff facilities is pretty inviting and I reckon that’s where they spend most of the time, be surprised if they actually spent a whole lot of quality time and or volunteer to help the ‘local’, too me me they were some young Aussies that had a job that happen to be in an area close to their heart.

The show didn’t interview anybody that choose not to climb. It’s easy pickings showing the people climbing, although the one side footage didn’t help with the poll.

Nearly all the screen time in general is given to either a couple of land owner spokesman and a lot of people that have opinion that are either not indigenous or not local indigenous.

Although Pauline doesn’t quite articulate her comments all that well she does have some good points...end of the day she got the approval from the ‘local’ owners climb, with there blessing I don’t see her as being disrespectful although I believe she would have attempted with or without.

Given it’s ACA, I’m not sure we got the full story

Either way I climbed the rock in late nineties, I’ll consider dropping in if I’m in the area when Im touring with my family, but with no opportunity to climb I reckon there are plenty of other places around Aus I can get my cultural experiences.

It’ll be interesting how the tourism of the rock goes after closing the climb, I suspect other area of significance close by will become more popular with more restriction to follow.

[bob10]

Indigenous tourism opportunities are growing, approaching the end of the climb.

The end of the climb (https://www.australiangeographic.com.au/topics/history-culture/2019/08/the-end-of-the-climb/)

[DiscoMick]

I see only 20% of visitors climb anyway.

[101RRS]

I see only 20% of visitors climb anyway.

That is because it is closed 80% of the time.

[Eevo]

Skydive Uluru - tandem skydiving operation that skydives right next to Uluru (https://www.skydiveuluru.com.au)

technically its not climbing

[bob10]

That is because it is closed 80% of the time.

I see you don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. Works on a public forum, not so much in real life. Still, we all like to contribute.

[Eevo]

I see you don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. Works on a public forum, not so much in real life. Still, we all like to contribute.

actually he is correct.