Dual battery system

[Lukeis]

I’m looking for a dual battery system, it willl only be for a 50L waeco fridge from time to
time but it’s possible I will get a winch at some stage.

Does anyone know if I could use something like this? I have already wired up the fridge etc so I just need the additional battery and isolator:

DUAL BATTERY KIT 140AMP NARVA COMPLETE ISOLATOR AND WIRING SYSTEM CABLE 61092 + | eBay (https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0'mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com.au%2Fulk%2Fitm%2 F321327573851)

yes, I’m very aware of the triaxide option but it’s expensive and if I can find something 90% as good for way less then that’s a win for me given my low need for it.

[harryharrison]

I have the Intervolt in my D3. it's pricey, but a little cheaper than Traxide.

In-Vehicle DC-DC Battery Charger | Intervolt (http://www.intervolt.com/product/in-vehicle-dc-dc-battery-charger/)

[Eric SDV6SE]

It's more expensive to replace batteries and buggered alternators from a poor quality DBMS than it is to get the Traxide system.

Whilst I haven't got a Traxide system, I've read a lot of very good reports about it, so if I was in the market for such a system that would be the one of choose for my D4.

[Lukeis]

I appreciate triaxide might be the gold standard but It’s just not on the table for me so I just want to know about other options which have worked for people on here

[Eric SDV6SE]

I have the Intervolt in my D3. it's pricey, but a little cheaper than Traxide.

In-Vehicle DC-DC Battery Charger | Intervolt (http://www.intervolt.com/product/in-vehicle-dc-dc-battery-charger/)

I have the intervolt solid state isolator nice bit of kit.

[DiscoJeffster]

I’d like a Traxide too, but I can’t justify at the moment as I only charge the camper when on the road and don’t have a fridge in the car. That might change in the future. I’ve looked at the Intervolt too. Seems a reasonable alternative if you’re competent to wire the system yourself and don’t want a turnkey solution such as Traxide.

One thing to remember is there is no warranty that compares to Traxide or the level of support available.

[DiscoMick]

I think the DBS we had in the D1 cost about $150 and came from ARB if that helps.
There are lots around just to separate batteries and the wiring is simple.
The Traxide has the advantage of allowing some draw down of the starting battery as well as the second battery.
You might consider buying a solar panel with wiring and a regulator to fit to the roof rack and run to the starting battery. That way it will always be charged, the DBS will connect the two batteries and your fridge will keep running.
I spent about $150 on an 80 watt panel with a regulator and 10 metre lead on eBay and it works fine. Just a thought.

[loanrangie]

Any basic $50 isolator like the Narva unit will do the job, in the scheme of things the traxide is not much more. Your winch will be wired to the main battery so a basic isolator will disconnect and not offer much assistance.

[Pinelli]

I've got a simple isolator relay that I've used, mainly because I recovered from the D2 when it went. I don't use the second battery for much, but the isolator seems to do the job fine. I think if it was going to have heavy usage, or you were using different types of batteries, you may want to consider something a little more intelligent.

[LRD414]

I wonder if you’re comparing apples with apples Luke? The Narva VSR kit for $165 gets you the isolator and cabling to connect batteries. The Traxide SC80 isolator alone is $165, so the only difference is the cabling. What about battery tray and hold down bracket plus a mount for the isolator? The basic Traxide kit for $430 includes the tray and isolator bracket and all wiring to suit the space in front of cranking battery.

Perhaps your aux battery is not going in front of the cranking battery and I’m sure the Narva unit would be a good option but I felt the perception of massive cost difference seemed worth further investigation.

Regards,
Scott

[drivesafe]

I have the Intervolt in my D3. it's pricey, but a little cheaper than Traxide
Not sure where you are comparing prices.

My whole kit, including cabling, battery tray and isolator is around the same price as just the DC/DC unit by itself.

[drivesafe]

I’m looking for a dual battery system, it willl only be for a 50L waeco fridge from time to
time but it’s possible I will get a winch at some stage.

Does anyone know if I could use something like this? I have already wired up the fridge etc so I just need the additional battery and isolator:

DUAL BATTERY KIT 140AMP NARVA COMPLETE ISOLATOR AND WIRING SYSTEM CABLE 61092 + | eBay (https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0'mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com.au%2Fulk%2Fitm%2 F321327573851)

yes, I’m very aware of the triaxide option but it’s expensive and if I can find something 90% as good for way less then that’s a win for me given my low need for it.
Hi Lukeis and unfortunately, it is never as simple as it seems.

That kit comes with 6B&S ( 13.5mm2 ) cable, but you will need 3B&S ( 25mm2 ) for proper winch operation.

What else have you got, such as a tray and so on?

[drivesafe]

I’m very aware of the triaxide option but it’s expensive and if I can find something 90% as good for way less then that’s a win for me given my low need for it.
BTW Lukeis, before you do anything, you need to learn how different devices work in your D4.

That device will NOT be 90% as good as one of my isolators. It is more like about 20%.

First and foremost, because that isolator cuts out ( turns off ) when the voltage drops below 12.7v, like most VSR isolators, it is vertically useless for linking batteries while winching. As soon as you start to winch, your voltage will quickly drop below 12.7v, and the isolator will simply turn off, disconnecting the auxiliary battery.

When developing my USI-160 isolator, I quickly realised that even my 12.0v cut-out voltage was still way to high. This is the reason my USI-160 has the unique feature of dropping the cut-out voltage to 10.0v, while the USI-160 is set to WINCH Mode.

And If you forget to reset the USI-160 back to normal operation when you have finished winching, 5 minutes after you turn your motor off, the USI-160 automatically raises the cut-out voltage from 10.0v back up to the normal setting, thus removing the chances of you flattening both batteries while camping.

Next, the very reason my isolators work better at charging auxiliary batteries in vehicles with “SMART” alternators, like your D4, is because my isolators allow up to half the cranking battery’s capacity to be used to assist the powering of accessories while you are camping.

This one function has two primary advantages in vehicles with SMART alternators. The obvious advantage is that you get nearly double the available battery capacity over any other setup, including the one you are looking at, but there is another advantage that very few people are aware of.

Again because my isolators allow up to half the Cranking battery’s capacity to be used while camping, if you have used some of it’s capacity, when you start your motor, the D4’s BMS will see that the cranking battery is NOT fully charged, so it will then run the alternator at a higher voltage for a longer time.

The lower the cranking battery is, when you start your motor, the longer the BMS will keep the alternator voltage high.

This allows both the cranking battery and the auxiliary battery to be charged faster in a shorter drive time.

One more point, with any isolator that cuts out at around 12.7v, because the D4’s BMS continually monitors the cranking battery, while you are driving, if the BMS determines that cranking battery is fully charged, it can lower the alternator voltage below 12.7v, causing your isolator to turn off, and it will stay off until the alternator voltages rises above 13.2v again, and on long trips on open road, this might not happen for long periods of time, making it harder to recharge your auxiliary both because the isolator may be off for periods of time, and when on, the alternator voltage may be so low that it makes charging the battery even slower.

There are quite a few other advantages for using my isolators, but the point is, that isolator you are considering does not have 90% of the functionality of one of my isolators. It is more like about 20%.

Again Lukeis, I suggest you do a lot more researching before you settle on anything in the way of a dual battery system.

[Lukeis]

I wonder if you’re comparing apples with apples Luke? The Narva VSR kit for $165 gets you the isolator and cabling to connect batteries. The Traxide SC80 isolator alone is $165, so the only difference is the cabling. What about battery tray and hold down bracket plus a mount for the isolator? The basic Traxide kit for $430 includes the tray and isolator bracket and all wiring to suit the space in front of cranking battery.

Perhaps your aux battery is not going in front of the cranking battery and I’m sure the Narva unit would be a good option but I felt the perception of massive cost difference seemed worth further investigation.

Regards,
Scott


Am I missing something? The extra $200 is for a battery tray? I have no idea what they are worth but I would have thought the tray was a $30 item

[Lukeis]

Hi Lukeis and unfortunately, it is never as simple as it seems.

That kit comes with 6B&S ( 13.5mm2 ) cable, but you will need 3B&S ( 25mm2 ) for proper winch operation.

What else have you got, such as a tray and so on?


Thanks mate, makes sense.
Forgive me but it’s the $500 price tag I’m trying to avoid, I’ve got no doubt your items are the bees knees but I have new wheels, new tyres, a roof pod, bull bar, spare battery and a few other things on the list of parts to buy so if I need to cut costs it’s going to be with my spare fridge as it runs pretty good on the main battery alone anyway and I have a large caravan fridge which is the main one, the dual battery is just an insurance policy

[Geedublya]

Luke, the Traxide is a drop in kit with everything done except installation. Cables are correct sizes with crimped ends, auto-resetting cct breakers and battery tray and hold down clamps are supplied and full instructions are provided. By the time you purchase all the cabling and components, measure up, cut to size and terminate cables. It will start to look cheap.

You can always buy just the Traxide isolator and do everything else yourself but I think Tim's kit is very good value.

[Lukeis]

The cables I can do myself, they are only short so the costs would be insignificant

has anyone sourced their own battery tray?

[Markus1]

Hey Lukeis. Do research is all I can say. Yep you can save a few bucks if you purchase traxide basic kit without all the wiring and extras, but only if you can source discount cable etc. I did it that way and got lucky with cable pricing and am more than happy with his kit. One of the flaws of the disco is its poor space for a decent aux battery under the hood. I was dissappointed to say the least. Traxide makes running a fridge in your truck practical due to its 12v cutout. I'm very impressed with how well it works. Can't comment on Tims isolator for winch functionality but I am happy to accept his logic as he know the cars well. Dc-to-dc is a definite disadvantage with an underhood setup where cable runs are very short. Put it this way I've seen my optima yellowtop regularly pull in excess of 40 amp/h for over 30 minutes, and that wasn't including the Varta starter pulling in excess of 25 over the same time period. That's some pretty serious total charge rates, important if your aiming for minimal use of solar. Good luck. Sometimes a few extra bucks means a lot less hassle down the track.

[LRD414]

I have no idea what they are worth but I would have thought the tray was a $30 item
Really? Good luck finding a stainless steel battery tray with custom mounting points to fit in the non-flat, quite small available space and includes a bracket to mount the isolator for $30.

[DiscoJeffster]

Really? Good luck finding a stainless steel battery tray with custom mounting points to fit in the non-flat, quite small available space and includes a bracket to mount the isolator for $30.

Yeah. I’ll call that out as stupid comment. Come on Lukis. $30? Honestly?

[Aussie Jeepster]

I have a Traxide system in my D3, but I also have a "Thumper" in the back as a carry around power supply. The Thumper is wired in to the Taxide charging system, and my fridge is plugged into it.
I can take the fridge out, with the thumper, and leave it running somewhere, and just throw a solar panel onto the Thumper when out of the vehicle.
Maybe you could look at one of the thumper units.
Thumper EXTREME ELITE 60AH Battery Power Pack 12Volt w USB Engel Anderson socket | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Thumper-EXTREME-ELITE-60AH-Battery-Power-Pack-12Volt-w-USB-Engel-Anderson-socket/291399622427?epid=1975988403&hash=item43d8c55f1b:g:X18AAOSwVFlT6Zle)

[dirvine]

What I find hard to fathom is why buy one of the most expensive 4WDs on the market with arguably the best off road ability and suspension to "die for" and then go cheap on accessories? It seems very short sighted. There are very good reasons why Tim developed the Traxide and it is both brand and model specific, not some generic "clone" that will not do the job properly. The trouble with modern cars is that the electronics have gone way beyond just connect everything back to a battery with a wire. Sometimes (and I am not saying this is that case here) people buy a product that they really cannot afford to own, operate and maintain. Perhaps an 80 series LC would be a better option with its basic electrical systems?

[Markus1]

Plus there's the added benefit of supporting an AUS made product here with Traxide. And Tim will answer the phone when you ring and answer any queries you have.

[BradC]

Sometimes (and I am not saying this is that case here) people buy a product that they really cannot afford to own, operate and maintain. Perhaps an 80 series LC would be a better option with its basic electrical systems?

Ouch. So you save up to buy what you think is a nice car, but before you make that mistake nobody explained that they are overcomplicated, fragile and therefore quite likely to cost far and above a more reliable vehicle to maintain. They come here for advice and get "sorry, you are too poor to afford a Landrover, maybe a Toyota would be more your price range".

All class.

[dirvine]

Ouch. So you save up to buy what you think is a nice car, but before you make that mistake nobody explained that they are overcomplicated, fragile and therefore quite likely to cost far and above a more reliable vehicle to maintain. They come here for advice and get "sorry, you are too poor to afford a Landrover, maybe a Toyota would be more your price range".

All class.
Read my post nothing about a Toyota being "cheaper" just that an 80 series has simple electrics. I could have said a series LR instead but they are not as comfortable as a the brand I mentioned. However as you say you save up for a nice car, then one of your due diligence would be to investigate costs or running it, maintaining it and other criteria. There is plenty written about the cost of maintaining a LR and the costs associated with keeping them on the road. Even if you discounted all the negative information of owning a LR by 50% it is quite clear they are not a cheap car to maintain. I would dearly like to own a Mclaren but I know I just could not afford to maintain it and run it, hence I lowered my sights to something else...and it was not my Discovery!!

[drivesafe]

Sometimes (and I am not saying this is that case here) people buy a product that they really cannot afford to own, operate and maintain. Perhaps an 80 series LC would be a better option with its basic electrical systems?

AND


Ouch. So you save up to buy what you think is a nice car, but before you make that mistake nobody explained that they are overcomplicated, fragile and therefore quite likely to cost far and above a more reliable vehicle to maintain. They come here for advice and get "sorry, you are too poor to afford a Landrover, maybe a Toyota would be more your price range".

All class.
I think this is two extremes of the same thing.

Time to let him decide for himself, as he has received lots of advice.

[Dagilmo]

Ouch. So you save up to buy what you think is a nice car, but before you make that mistake nobody explained that they are overcomplicated, fragile and therefore quite likely to cost far and above a more reliable vehicle to maintain. They come here for advice and get "sorry, you are too poor to afford a Landrover, maybe a Toyota would be more your price range".

All class.

Additionally, what has the cost of the car got to do with the cost of additions? Whether the car cost $10,000 or $100,000 the cost of any addition is is still a cost.

As the OP says, he doesn't have a great need for a full bells and whistles dual battery system and therefore doesn't see the 'value' in Tim's system. I use my fridge as a freezer and will have a winch so I will see value in Tim's system so will probably go that way when I do fit a system in my new car, but I get the investigation into other options to suit a different need.

[W&KO]

I just have the basic redarc isolator, it’s does everything I need. I like my starter staying fully charged and haven’t seen the need to use the starter capacity when I’m touring.

I have
1 x 120amp/hr AGM
1 x redarc isolator
15/75 Victron Controller
2 x 125w of solar on the roof
1 x 125w folding solar blanket for when we are parked up in the shade.

My previous car I had a traxide SC80 and I believe it’s now running in a different car.

I have an 18yo defender, I typically purchase the top end of town bolt ons well except for the isolator. No kings two bob stuff on mine.

Just thinking King’s would also have an isolator that would be low cost and do the job.

[LRD414]

As the OP says, he doesn't have a great need for a full bells and whistles dual battery system and therefore doesn't see the 'value' in Tim's system.
This is the incorrect information I was trying to address.
Originally linked Narva isolator with some cable - $139
Traxide SC80 isolator with a bit less cable - $165

Yes there are also more expensive "kits" available from Traxide which include various extra components (battery tray, pre-cut wiring, etc) but that not apples-with-apples.

SC80 | TRAXIDE - RV | Traxide - RV (http://www.traxide.com.au/isolators/sc80.html)
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/321327573851 (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/321327573851?ul_noapp=true)

Regards,
Scott

[Lukeis]

Wow, lots to read here..

Thank you for all the posts on triaxide, the support for its features has come through loud and clear but of course I already knew the benefits to it from reading a number of other posts hence my specific comments about wanting to hear about OTHER options available.

To Dirvine, If I could point you back to my comments again you may notice my D4 is a 2011 model and with an estimated value of $20-25K it is far from the most expensive 4WD on the market. Thanks to a healthy depreciation you'll probably find that after 2-3 years your precious luxury SUV is now within the reach of a wide range of people, yes even me.

From my research on the Triaxide website it was about $600 for the kit I needed, plus a battery for about $350 that's almost a thousand just to keep my beer fridge cold, and yes as a side note it does somewhat concern me to use the starter battery for the fridge when I travel in the outback next year. The Narva kit, plus a battery tray for $110 (not $30 - which I now know was a 'stupid' comment) plus Battery is a total of $600. As a 'bit of a numbers guy' I would surmise that if I could save 40% on everything I buy I could work less and spend more time travelling with the family in my D4 (having more money isn't the aim of MY life).

Tim, I mean zero disrespect to your product and have acknowledged a couple of times its no doubt a great piece of gear. However as Warren Buffet would say "you don't ask a Barber if you need a haircut".

I think to save everyone the hassle I will take the comments onboard and decide on my path quietly on my own, shall we all agree to leave it here?!

Thanks all!

[LRD414]

.... I will take the comments onboard and decide on my path quietly on my own ....
Why not close the loop? I think it could be useful to many to provide details of what you end up installing Luke.
It would be a shame not to see the final result, especially if it ends up as a cost effective system that others could consider re their own requirements.

Cheers,
Scott

[Lukeis]

I see your point, Im just trying to keep the peace.
Will update once I make a call

[Eric SDV6SE]

151827

[Dagilmo]

[QUOTE=Im just trying to keep the peace. [/QUOTE]

Keep the peace? Don't worry about that. All good healthy debate, as Scott says, need to close the loop. It'd be like reading/watching all of the Lord of the Rings and not knowing if Frodo makes it to Mt Doom and tosses that pesky ring in.....!

@Scott. Point taken with regards to apples for apples.

[Bagoo76]

I appreciate triaxide might be the gold standard but It’s just not on the table for me so I just want to know about other options which have worked for people on here

As mentioned by others, your battery will suffer... it’s also a false economy as you’ll be replacing batteries more often and will probably end up upgrading the system to a BCDC in the end. Buy right, buy once 😀

[StewG]

I have come in late in the conversation, but for what it is worth I fitted a Traxide DBS two years ago and was very pleased with the well designed kit and ease of fitting. It has proven to be a great asset for powering an Engel and caravan. The best part, since I was new to LR D4, is the highly detailed fitting instructions and helpfulness of Tim in answering questions on the most appropriate kit and getting the kit to me. I've subsequently added a small 20Watt solar panel and controller to top up batteries when sitting idle for a few days.

[drivesafe]

As mentioned by others, your battery will suffer... it’s also a false economy as you’ll be replacing batteries more often and will probably end up upgrading the system to a BCDC in the end. Buy right, buy once 😀
Hi Bagoo76, with any Land Rover, fitting a DC/DC device is actually a big step backwards.

The OPs suggestion of using that VSR would still give him a better setup than a DC/DC device could provide.

[Geedublya]

I can understand the problem Luke is facing. It isn't always easy to decide where to allocate the budget and it will depend on what priority he allocates to the car fridge. For me when travelling the fridge is a high priority so a DBS is one of the first things I do.
There are cheaper alternatives that do work. My first D3 had a simple solenoid that switched with the ignition and a yellow top. This system worked quite well but when I had a good look at it the wiring to the rear was marginally rated and it used the chassis as the return. It would only run the fridge for 1.5 days. Which is enough for some people.

[DiscoMick]

Whatever system you choose, I recommend you add a solar panel on your roof rack to keep it topped up. Set and forget.

[W&KO]

As mentioned by others, your battery will suffer... it’s also a false economy as you’ll be replacing batteries more often and will probably end up upgrading the system to a BCDC in the end. Buy right, buy once [emoji3]

How is his battery going to suffer and why will he be replacing batteries more often??

[DiscoJeffster]

How is his battery going to suffer and why will he be replacing batteries more often??

Because the charging regime selected is based on the cranking battery’s charge state. If both batteries are discharged together then the BMS will apply higher voltage to increase charging to the cranking which benefits both batteries. If the cranking is full, then the drain of the other battery is perceived as only a parasitic load and not a battery that needs charging. This will see lower voltage applied and slower charging of the secondary battery. This in turn can see it always partially charged hurting it’s life.
Traxide and other that deplete the cranking battery work in the secondary battery’s favour.

[W&KO]

Because the charging regime selected is based on the cranking battery’s charge state. If both batteries are discharged together then the BMS will apply higher voltage to increase charging to the cranking which benefits both batteries. If the cranking is full, then the drain of the other battery is perceived as only a parasitic load and not a battery that needs charging. This will see lower voltage applied and slower charging of the secondary battery. This in turn can see it always partially charged hurting it’s life.
Traxide and other that deplete the cranking battery work in the secondary battery’s favour.

I’ve ever had any issue over the last 20 years.

[Lukeis]

Whatever system you choose, I recommend you add a solar panel on your roof rack to keep it topped up. Set and forget.

Thanks but the roof isn’t an option as I’ll plan on putting a large roof pod up there so that I can lock my surfboard on top.

Ive never had a flat from the fridge from using just the main battery (I’ve come close!) so I’m confident the extra battery dedicated just for the fridge will do the trick.. time will tell

[Lukeis]

To close this out.. I ended up with the Narva voltage sensitive relay, front runner battery tray and optima yellow top.

Hasnt been tested properly yet for how long I can run the fridge but The car seems to start better

Total price $560

battery - $305
battery tray $115
Narva VSR - $140

[LRD414]

To close this out
It's not closed until there's photos :)

Scott

[Markus1]

Because the Narva cuts out at 12.7v you have only the capacity of the yellow top to run your fridge. If your yellowtop is the d34 then it's 55amps which means you have a safe usable of about 45amps. This setup will require some careful management if your planning on stopping up any longer than 1 night.

[drivesafe]

Hi Lukeis, and just a work of caution, when I started supplying my D4 kits, I originally supplied them with that battery tray.

The tray actually comes from South Africa, and there was a problem with it.

The bracket can touch and rub the plastic bottle just in front of the battery location.

At the time I asked if the bracket could be modified, but as it was made for a specific purpose and they could not/would not change it.

If it is still the same bracket, you will need to make sure it clears the plastic bottle.

BTW, this is why we decided to make our own and make it out of stainless steel instead of painted steel.

[loanrangie]

I paid about $200 less for my traxide and 85ah agm, so by skimping you spent more.

[DiscoJeffster]

I paid about $200 less for my traxide and 85ah agm, so by skimping you spent more.

Really? $360?

[loanrangie]

Really? $360?Yes, $330 to be exact. I already had the power and earth cable and twin core sheathed to run to the rear so even if you add $50 for that.

[DiscoJeffster]

Yes, $330 to be exact. I already had the power and earth cable and twin core sheathed to run to the rear so even if you add $50 for that.

What AGM did you use to get all that to fit into $330? I can’t even find an AGM for less let alone the Traxide tray and isolator.

[Lukeis]

I didn’t even review my battery options, all I have ever read is yellow top battery is the one.

Not sure how much battery I need for the fridge but more the better is the likely answer, nothing that can be changed now.

Re. Tim - thanks for the heads up,, I’ll have a look into it

[LRD414]

I didn’t even review my battery options, all I have ever read is yellow top battery is the one.
Have a read of a recent thread for an SSB alternative. Recently there’s been a spate of premature failures with Yellowtops and a poor response in warranty claims for a few people. Keep an eye on it; physical signs of warping.

Cheers,
Scott

PS don’t forget photos of the setup

[drivesafe]

Lukeis, once it's all finished and you have done a week or so of normal driving, try doing a driveway test.

When you know you will not be driving for a day or two, park up in your backyard and run the fridge.

Don't forget to go to it every so often.

Measure the voltage of both batteries when you start the test, then see how long it takes to discharge the Optima down to 11.58v ( 20% SoC )

This chart will help you monitor the state of charge during the test.

http://www.traxide.com.au/DATA/S_SoC_Table.jpg