Power Generation. The Weekend Australian. "Inquirer" June 15/16.

[Pickles2]

I was talking to my "Nuclear physicist" brother in law yesterday, about power generation etc, and he gave me this article in the Weekend Australian, (page 15) very interesting, probably the best I've read.
Sorry I can't put it up, but maybe someone on here is clued up on computers & can do it,....VERY enlightening.
A couple of snippets,.."currently, solar & wind energy deliver only 1% of global energy, and the International Energy Agency estimate that even by 2040, the figure will be only around 4%".
"To replace a 1Ha gas fired power plant, society needs 73 ha of Solar Panels, 239 ha of on shore wind turbines or an unbelieveable 6000ha of biomass".
A very revealing article,that many won't want to know about, but they do say don't they that "the truth often hurts".
Pickles

[rick130]

A very revealing article,that many won't want to know about, but they do say don't they that "the truth often hurts".
Pickles

Yep, revealing that the Murdoch press has an agenda.

I'd be double checking every supposed 'fact' in any article from The Australian.

It isn't the newspaper it was even ten years ago, these days it's merely propaganda. [emoji45]

[Slunnie]

I do tend to agree that there is an agenda there. a plant is a small part of the total foot print to start with aside from all other related issues.

No mention of what modern concerned countries are doing and percentages used.

Its like if you cant get 100% renewables then don't bother. That article should be framed to promote the increased urgency required with non-fossil fuel based energy production..

[Arapiles]

it's Murdoch so there is an agenda and I'm pretty sure everything in it will be not correct, or distorted, or rubbery or deliberately misread - how, for example, did they count "global energy"?

[Arapiles]

Nice of them to point us to the IEA though ... first thing I saw was this:


Higher average oil prices in 2018 pushed up the value of global fossil fuel consumption subsidies back up toward levels last seen in 2014, underscoring the incomplete nature of the pricing reforms undertaken in recent years, according to new data from the IEA.
The new data for 2018 show a one-third increase in the estimated value of these subsidies, to more than $400 billion. The estimates for oil, gas and fossil-fuelled electricity have all increased significantly, reflecting the higher price for fuels (which, in the presence of an artificially low end-user price, increases the estimated value of the subsidy). The continued prevalence of these subsidies – more than double the estimated subsidies to renewables – greatly complicates the task of achieving an early peak in global emissions.
The 2018 data sees oil return as the most heavily subsidised energy carrier, expanding its share in the total to more than 40%. In 2016, electricity briefly became the sector with the largest subsidy bill.


















billion dollars, 2018
dollars per barrel, 2018












Economic value of global fossil-fuel consumption subsidies by energy sourceOilGasCoalElectricity

IEA average2010201120122013201420152016201720180200400 600080160240IEA. All rights reserved.



2011● Oil: $248 billion

Fossil fuel consumption subsidies are in place across a range of countries. These subsidies lower the price of fossil fuels, or of fossil-fuel based electricity, to end-consumers, often as a way of pursuing social policy objectives.

[DiscoMick]

Subsidies don't have to be cash either, they can be things like building a road, rail line or port to move the fossil fuel.

[donh54]

Subsidies don't have to be cash either, they can be things like building a road, rail line or port to move the fossil fuel.And,of course, those roads, rail lines and ports are never used to transport, or transship components and/or services for renewable generation, are they?

[speleomike]

Hi

I wonder how many saw the announcement a few months ago ....
"In April, renewables eclipsed coal generation in the US for the first time. The Energy Information Administration estimates renewables outperformed coal by 16% in April and will generate 1.4% more in May."

The Australian looked at total global energy of all forms. If you look at residential energy and individual industries it's a different picture. Renewables are surging ahead in first world countries. And industry is getting in on it despite the nay sayers. The Nuclear Industry engineers are still hopeful :-) It isn't greenies anymore that they need to worry about. It's plain simple economics - capital cost, money to back it, and operating cost.

PS. I haven't bought The Australian now for decades, but occasionally see some of their articles. It's so biased and one eyed that I can understand why they give away a years subscription to Uni students and passers bys at Central. They are desperately trying to get subscribers for their Murdoch rag.

Mike

[BradC]

And,of course, those roads, rail lines and ports are never used to transport, or transship components and/or services for renewable generation, are they?

I suppose they don't move the coal to make the steel either.

[Phideaux]

The 'Fifth Estate' (the free press) has basically been shifted from 'keeping the bastards honest by telling the truth' to 'keeping the bastards in power who will make us richer'.
The New York Times published a remarkable article recently - showing how Rupert has magnified his influence to the extent that governments do his bidding.
The Australian - once the most balanced and challenging of the broadsheets - has become a mere vehicle for vested interests.
In the US those who aren't out-foxed regard Fox News as a vehicle for the hard right in the same way that Pravda was once the vehicle for the Communist totalitarians.
We've come to a dangerous place in Australian history - we've got Spymaster Dutton now at the apex of all policing and intelligence organisations of the Federal Government. The conservatives hate balance - witness what they're doing to kill the ABC.
Sorry to wax political - NOT my favourite topic of conversation! - but 'don't trust me' - look into it - find out where we were and where we are. It's getting harder and harder to find anything like balance, truth, anything that's genuine reporting rather than Op-Ed - fewer facts and more opinions.

Overseas we're seen as 'the most secretive democracy in the English-speaking world'.
Did you know that you can be sued for defamation for telling the truth?
That's how the politicians retire rich. Lawsuits. Again - don't trust me - look into it.

[Arapiles]

One of the areas I used to work in overseas was in project finance - both oil and gas and renewables. For example, I worked on some of the developments on the North-West Shelf. I keep up with the literature too. One of the key issues with coal at the moment is that commercial financiers won't lend money on coal mines or coal-fired power stations because it's regarded as a "stranded asset" - that is, that within the operating life of the asset there will be no viable purchase price for the asset, in other words they'll be valueless. Which doesn't much appeal to financiers who are trying to get their money back. It's also pretty hard for coal assets to meet development standards, like the Equator principles. I understand that this is why the original Adani mine plans didn't go through - because no financier would touch it with a barge-pole, on both environmental grounds and financial (the numbers just didn't stack up).

So .... if this Australian article says that renewables are a fad and coal is the future then they're flying in the face of reality and global experience.

It's hard to work out where the Coalition are coming from in relation to coal and carbon pricing because even the big resources and energy companies, who you'd think would have some influence with them, are telling them that they need to price carbon - but they're not doing it. It's all very odd.

[Arapiles]

And,of course, those roads, rail lines and ports are never used to transport, or transship components and/or services for renewable generation, are they?

Probably not - there are plenty of privately owned but State-subsidised road, rail line and ports around, including some in Australia.

[DiscoMick]

That's why Adani can't get finance and the owner of Adani is financing $7b from his own pocket. The Adani coal will supply his own power stations in India.

BTW the UK just went a whole week without burning any coal at all.

[Phideaux]

Good to note that there's a green awareness on this thread.
I admit, after the election result - and yet more 'corruption by another word' coming to light now, after the election (google Frydenberg) I was wondering whether the 'only stupid people are breeding' (and voting) was our dumb new Post-Truth-Era world.
You give me hope.

As background: my daughter did her PHD in renewables - and all the complications that come from converting from point sources of energy generation from point-sourced of non-renewables to distributed renewable sources. It Ain't Simple! She was head-hunted by the NSW govt before she'd quite finished her PHD, crunches their numbers.
And was telling me about how some lobbyist at a conference was BS-ing her (not knowing who she was) about the recent near-collapse of the Victorian coal-fired stations on a hot day (3 power-stations - all coal - nearly 'fell over' on that day. On super-hot days - coal-fired is more likely to collapse, not less). He said, "Yeah - it's all the fault of the renewables - if they hadn't withdrawn on that day, there would have been no problem."
And she said, "They did not withdraw. They were at peak capacity (which is currently 2%, grid-wise, Victoria - I think she said). And getting 4X the usual spot-rate for those crucial few hours. A moment of profitability! - if they hadn't been present, then the system would have collapsed - it was that close. Don't BS me - I did the research and wrote the report." The A-hole fled. Probably then spun the same line to someone less informed and more gullible.

The dirty-coal/dirty-energy industry is fighting even dirtier.

Two things she mentioned. In our warming climate - more people are dying from heat-stress than are dying from all other natural causes combined; snake-bite, lightning-strike, shark-attack, etc... In NSW, last year it was 500 people (about 5X my guess). In context - road toll NSW last year was ~300. Category: 'premature deaths'.

Now to EVs:
She also mentioned: "If you're going to get an EV, make sure you get a 'smart charger'. One that turns on when the load system-wide is less, and the renewable generation is higher. The worst thing is when people come home at sundown, plug in the EV, then go in and turn on lights, electric stove, etc..." Smart chargers are (currently!) a grand or two more expensive.

Also context - the new 'superchargers' (350kw or whatever) use more power than a dozen homes - but do charge a car in the same sort of time as a leisurely cup of coffee.

We are at an adventurous time of change - it is a pity we've got citizens and corporates with a clearer view of the future than 'the Moonlight Feds'. Governments should lead, not be dragged kicking and screaming, held back by their lobbyists.

Just think what might-have-been if an enlightened government had gone to Dear Elon and said: "We've got this auto-industry closing down - how about we work together and we build your Tesla Y?" (Which I think might be my next car/wife's car - still at prototype stage).

Anyways... good to meet IQ on this forum. Perhaps my grandchildren won't inherit a burning planet after all.

Phideaux.

[DiscoMick]

Good points. If this thread was in Current Affairs where political comment is allowed I could say a lot more.

There was a proposal to start a lithium battery factory in a closed car plant in Adelaide, but it may not happen now.

One point about EVs is, if the house has solar and batteries, and is wired to charge the batteries and run the house before drawing from the grid if necessary, then plugging in the EV actually adds to the battery capacity of the house. So, for example, if a house has 6kv of battery bank, and the EV has say a 6kv battery bank, then when the EV is plugged in the house has 12kv of batteries to draw from, so it should not need to draw from the grid at all, even at night.

[donh54]

Good to note that there's a green awareness on this thread.
I admit, after the election result - and yet more 'corruption by another word' coming to light now, after the election (google Frydenberg) I was wondering whether the 'only stupid people are breeding' (and voting) was our dumb new Post-Truth-Era world.
You give me hope.

As background: my daughter did her PHD in renewables - and all the complications that come from converting from point sources of energy generation from point-sourced of non-renewables to distributed renewable sources. It Ain't Simple! She was head-hunted by the NSW govt before she'd quite finished her PHD, crunches their numbers.
And was telling me about how some lobbyist at a conference was BS-ing her (not knowing who she was) about the recent near-collapse of the Victorian coal-fired stations on a hot day (3 power-stations - all coal - nearly 'fell over' on that day. On super-hot days - coal-fired is more likely to collapse, not less). He said, "Yeah - it's all the fault of the renewables - if they hadn't withdrawn on that day, there would have been no problem."
And she said, "They did not withdraw. They were at peak capacity (which is currently 2%, grid-wise, Victoria - I think she said). And getting 4X the usual spot-rate for those crucial few hours. A moment of profitability! - if they hadn't been present, then the system would have collapsed - it was that close. Don't BS me - I did the research and wrote the report." The A-hole fled. Probably then spun the same line to someone less informed and more gullible.

The dirty-coal/dirty-energy industry is fighting even dirtier.

Two things she mentioned. In our warming climate - more people are dying from heat-stress than are dying from all other natural causes combined; snake-bite, lightning-strike, shark-attack, etc... In NSW, last year it was 500 people (about 5X my guess). In context - road toll NSW last year was ~300. Category: 'premature deaths'.

Now to EVs:
She also mentioned: "If you're going to get an EV, make sure you get a 'smart charger'. One that turns on when the load system-wide is less, and the renewable generation is higher. The worst thing is when people come home at sundown, plug in the EV, then go in and turn on lights, electric stove, etc..." Smart chargers are (currently!) a grand or two more expensive.

Also context - the new 'superchargers' (350kw or whatever) use more power than a dozen homes - but do charge a car in the same sort of time as a leisurely cup of coffee.

We are at an adventurous time of change - it is a pity we've got citizens and corporates with a clearer view of the future than 'the Moonlight Feds'. Governments should lead, not be dragged kicking and screaming, held back by their lobbyists.

Just think what might-have-been if an enlightened government had gone to Dear Elon and said: "We've got this auto-industry closing down - how about we work together and we build your Tesla Y?" (Which I think might be my next car/wife's car - still at prototype stage).

Anyways... good to meet IQ on this forum. Perhaps my grandchildren won't inherit a burning planet after all.

Phideaux.Regarding the heat stress point - a friend who is a paramedic told me of a conversation he had with a doctor who had recently attended a symposium in the USA on the shifting causes of fatalities in children and the elderly.
He claimed that one of the speakers claimed that the presence of air-conditioning in cars, homes, and businesses/schools seems to have resulted in a lowering of the human tolerance for major variations in temperature.
Food for thought.

[JDNSW]

I'm sure that is right! Although before airconditioning, there may have been many deaths that were attributed to other causes, but were actually heat stress. Most deaths from heat stress will be people who were at risk from other conditions, such as illness or age or both. And then there is the uncertainty as to whether a death apparently from heat stress is actually from that or from dehydration that could have been easily avoided.

[DiscoMick]

Heat stress is one of the major threats from global warming.

Heat Waves and Climate Change: What the Science Tells Us about Extreme Heat Events (2018) | Union of Concerned Scientists (https://www.ucsusa.org/our-work/global-warming/global-warming-impacts/heat-waves-and-climate-change-what-science-tells-us)

[donh54]

Heat stress is one of the major threats from global warming.

Heat Waves and Climate Change: What the Science Tells Us about Extreme Heat Events (2018) | Union of Concerned Scientists (https://www.ucsusa.org/our-work/global-warming/global-warming-impacts/heat-waves-and-climate-change-what-science-tells-us)So we should start weaning ourselves off air/con! (Probably help to slow the onset of global warming, too)

[Arapiles]

Good points. If this thread was in Current Affairs where political comment is allowed I could say a lot more.

There was a proposal to start a lithium battery factory in a closed car plant in Adelaide, but it may not happen now.

One point about EVs is, if the house has solar and batteries, and is wired to charge the batteries and run the house before drawing from the grid if necessary, then plugging in the EV actually adds to the battery capacity of the house. So, for example, if a house has 6kv of battery bank, and the EV has say a 6kv battery bank, then when the EV is plugged in the house has 12kv of batteries to draw from, so it should not need to draw from the grid at all, even at night.

Yes, they've been doing that in Japan for quite a while.

[BradC]

Yes, they've been doing that in Japan for quite a while.

So when you get out in the morning to go to work your car is flat because someone left an appliance on.

[rick130]

So we should start weaning ourselves off air/con! (Probably help to slow the onset of global warming, too)

If you knew how much energy goes into air conditioning large buildings you'd be horrified!
I still have large shopping centres were we don't have economy cycles on the air handlers, ie the outside air dampers don't open at a set temp and RH to get free cooling!
And heating in a sub tropical area is still electric re-heat. I'm talking hundreds of kw of heaters. (we are quoting reverse cycle chillers, but the total cost will go over 7 figures)

[rick130]

So when you get out in the morning to go to work your car is flat because someone left an appliance on.

But they'd only do it once! [biggrin]

[Phideaux]

I wish these complex matters were simpler - but they're not.
The first thing is the category - premature deaths. So many of those who die are already weakened - old or very young, or sick - and some of those would die in the relatively soon predictable future anyway.
Another feature is that again, some of those that die will be sick because they're poor - and therefore, not have access to air-conditioning.

That the human-race with access to air-conditioning is getting softer - not doubted.
That those well-fed humans with habituated access to air-con would be more prone to dying of heat-stress - probably a much rarer connection than existing infirmity of the old-age/young-age/underfed/existing illness suite.

Welcome to 'it ain't simple' (and please suspect anyone who says it is!)

[biggin]

I agree, complex matters are not simple.

[DiscoClax]

I agree, complex matters are not simple.Can't argue with that...

[Arapiles]

I agree, complex matters are not simple.

Yes, it's quite simple - complex matters aren't simple.

[Arapiles]

So when you get out in the morning to go to work your car is flat because someone left an appliance on.


Not with Toyota keeping an eye on things for you it won't:

スマートハウスのe！こと｜スマートハウス｜住宅・ハウスメーカーのトヨタホーム (http://www.toyotahome.co.jp/smarthouse/hems/)