Tow test - 2016 D4 SDV6 vs LC200 Sahara

[GregMilner]

Hi Folks, as some would know, we've been traversing the Munja Track, north by north west out of Mount Elizabeth Station, half way along the Gibb. The 145km to Bachsten Creek took us one and a half days.
Friends were in their 2016 Sahara, and we've both been towing identical Pioneer campers weighing nearly two tonnes.
Both cars did the job over the rough stuff pretty easily. But the difference between the two in fuel consumption alone was stark.
John's Sahara refused to cruise in 6th gear, so he was constantly at 2000rpm in 5th, while I was able to easily sit on 110 to 115kmh on the highway in 8th at 1800rpm. While he was using more than 20 l/100km, I was using 15. He really needs that transmission remap.
The Sahara had the advantage of bigger sidewalls on 18s of course, while I had to be a bit more careful on my 19s shod with Maxxis. (One of which got pinched against the rim and developed a nasty bulge, so it had to be changed out for a spare)
But his car being steel sprung, the corrugations shook his Rhino rack loose and sheared the bolts down one site, while nothing moved on my roof at all. His rack had to be secured with heavy cable ties till it gets back to Perth.
The other difference I noticed was being able to significantly raise my ground clearance using the IID tool, whereas his was stuck at standard, so climbing the rocky jump ups for me was a breeze.
And descending them in rock crawl mode, feet off the pedals, was easy. John didn't trust his rock crawl mode (or didn't know how to use it:-) so he rode the brakes.
Now we have the 3,000km cruise back to Dunsborough in a couple of days. No towing either, leaving the trailer in Broome for my brother to use in a couple of weeks. Happy days.

[SPROVER]

Maybe you should get you're mate to post that on the Toyota forum [emoji16][emoji16]

[SaltyNalty]

Nice comparo. Got to love the Discoverys (or is it Discoveries?).

Cheers,

Salty

[Eric SDV6SE]

Nice comparo. Got to love the Discoverys (or is it Doscoveries?).

Cheers,

Salty

Maybe "Disco's" or "Discoes" or "Discos"?

[Graeme]

Was a torque converter lock-up module fitted to the LC200?

[trout1105]

Are both the Disco and the Sahara Diesel or is the Sahara a petrol V8?

[Chops]

For a few hundred bucks investment,, Llams is an excellent investment, as would be the TuffAnt rims for you [wink11]

[DiscoJeffster]

For a few hundred bucks investment,, Llams is an excellent investment, as would be the TuffAnt rims for you [wink11]

I agree on Tuffs but while I respect Llams, it does nothing IID cannot do, so unless you need to go non-standard sus on a daily basis and therefore the convenience of Llams then IID is more than ok for occasional country jaunts.

[GregMilner]

Was a torque converter lock-up module fitted to the LC200?

No, stock standard tranny Graeme.

[GregMilner]

Are both the Disco and the Sahara Diesel or is the Sahara a petrol V8?

Both diesel.

[justinc]

Yup. LC200 again an overrated and overpriced vehicle...

[LRD414]

..... an excellent investment, as would be the TuffAnt rims for you....
Looks like there'll be another option soon:
TuffAnt on Instagram: “Just going to leave this here... . . . . . . . 🐜🐜🐜 #BreakingNews #TuffAnt #TuffAntAlloy #18inchAlloy #LetsGo #TuffAntAction #landrover…” (https://www.instagram.com/p/Bymhv3_HngK/)

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/vp/c414ddd6d2b4cde3c0d29168c9dc1614/5DA287C6/t51.2885-15/sh0.08/e35/s640x640/61363608_596562167531776_4784059376909950502_n.jpg ?_nc_ht=scontent.cdninstagram.com

Although, for the type of track/terrain Greg has travelled on this trip, I think the steel wheels would be the better option.

Cheers,
Scott

[trout1105]

Yup. LC200 again an overrated and overpriced vehicle...

Much the same can be said about a Discovery where comfort and luxury tend to take precedence over capability as in the LC200 and this tends to come with an inflated price tag..
A Defender or a 79 Series would outperform either of these offroad because they are both a No nonsense 4WD that are designed with capability being the foremost goal.
Modern SUV's are a compromise between Luxury/Comfort/Looks and 4WD capability/Reliability and that's just fine if that's the sort of vehicle you want to drive and being a D2a owner I Completely understand But for hard core everyday use offroad it is hard to surpass a Defender/79 Series/Patrol.

[roverrescue]

Did you end up getting out to Walcott or just stay at Bachstein?

[101RRS]

Was a torque converter lock-up module fitted to the LC200?

So a modern auto vehicle like the 200 series does not have a lock up auto?

Garry

[justinc]

So a modern auto vehicle like the 200 series does not have a lock up auto?

Garry

They do Garry, however their programm8ng is disastrous and it drops out of TC lock as soon as you come to a gentle rise, or start to want to use all of that torque. My 8spd will stay locked all the way down to 1000rpm, and will hold 8th gear at 1350rpm at 100kmh on a slight hill all day long.

[Eevo]

They do Garry, however their programm8ng is disastrous and it drops out of TC lock as soon as you come to a gentle rise, or start to want to use all of that torque. My 8spd will stay locked all the way down to 1000rpm, and will hold 8th gear at 1350rpm at 100kmh on a slight hill all day long.

i wish the 6 speed would do that.

[Graeme]

The rebuilt 6-speed in the 3.0 D4 that my son now owns keeps the TC locked to much lower revs and heavier throttle than it did before the rebuild. The rebuild included an improved 3.0 TC.

[jon3950]

Much the same can be said about a Discovery where comfort and luxury tend to take precedence over capability as in the LC200 and this tends to come with an inflated price tag..
A Defender or a 79 Series would outperform either of these offroad because they are both a No nonsense 4WD that are designed with capability being the foremost goal.
Modern SUV's are a compromise between Luxury/Comfort/Looks and 4WD capability/Reliability and that's just fine if that's the sort of vehicle you want to drive and being a D2a owner I Completely understand But for hard core everyday use offroad it is hard to surpass a Defender/79 Series/Patrol.

You could say the Disco trades a small amount of capability for an awful lot of comfort and safety.

I think the biggest problem with a Disco's capability is its price. Because its expensive people are less inclined to trash them. That and the fact that they don't look like a proper 4wd, so they must be soft. [biggrin]
In reality that D3/4 platform is built like a brick ****house, way more than a Defender.

I say this as a dedicated Defender owner.

Cheers,
Jon

[Chops]

You could say the Disco trades a small amount of capability for an awful lot of comfort and safety.

I think the biggest problem with a Disco's capability is its price. Because its expensive people are less inclined to trash them. That and the fact that they don't look like a proper 4wd, so they must be soft. [biggrin]
In reality that D3/4 platform is built like a brick ****house, way more than a Defender.

I say this as a dedicated Defender owner.

Cheers,
Jon


Having had both Jon, im not sure where i sit with this, suffice to say, the "Bare_bones" Disco i believe was only literally a few grand more than the Defender. I had the Dual Cab 110, so in reality, very little carrying "space", as such. The 110 wagon and the Disco, im not sure which has more usable room, but the disco certainly i think would have a bigger door entrance.
Ultimately, for me, buying the Defender was a mistake when in reality i use the current Disco as i would any defender.

[cripesamighty]

"In reality that D3/4 platform is built like a brick ****house, way more than a Defender."


Having loved two Defenders in the past (TD5 and Puma) and currently owning a D1 and D3 (which I treat no differently), I can pretty much agree with this statement. As much as I love the Defenders and Series vehicles to bits, you would be hard pressed to replicate the following two links in one of those vehicles. Horses for courses.

Road Carnage Mtunzini N2 (https://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showthread.php/102495-Road-Carnage-Mtunzini-N2?highlight=carnage)

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3LIWXCuUUc)

[jon3950]

Having had both Jon, im not sure where i sit with this, suffice to say, the "Bare_bones" Disco i believe was only literally a few grand more than the Defender. I had the Dual Cab 110, so in reality, very little carrying "space", as such. The 110 wagon and the Disco, im not sure which has more usable room, but the disco certainly i think would have a bigger door entrance.
Ultimately, for me, buying the Defender was a mistake when in reality i use the current Disco as i would any defender.

I’m not sure where I sit either Marcus - I’m being a bit provocative really. I think they are both great vehicles and have loved owning both, but for different reasons. My 110 wagon has more space in the back than my D4 did, but it is harder to pack because of the shape and has a back seat that is only fit for hobbits - so a compromise.

I do think the Discos are a bit underestimated in terms of their capability. Sure, the Defender makes a better farm truck but that’s about it. I also think the D3/4 is a lot more solidly built than a Defender, as I’m sure you’d agree having had both. The Defender is very solid in the chassis and suspension and probably the equal of the Disco, but that body is made of tissue paper.

I think a lot of people make the same mistake comparing the Disco with the LC200. The Cruiser is bigger, looks more solid and is more in line with what people think 4wds should look like. However, as we can see from Greg’s comparison the Disco can run rings around the Cruiser in many ways.

Where the Disco always wins for me is in its breadth of capability. The Defender is a dedicated off-road load hauler and does that extremely well. However, the Disco only loses out a little in terms of capability, yet can do so much more. The same can be said I think of the Cruiser. It’s a very capable off-road machine that’s been tarted up to look luxurious, but loses out to the Disco in every other aspect of it’s performance.

My towing experience has mostly been limited to car trailers, so I’m no expert. However, it has been with many vehicles, including the Defender, 70 series Cruisers and various Discos (no LC200 though). I’d have to say the D4 was the best tow vehicle I’ve used by a country mile.

Cheers,
Jon

[scarry]

And for touring,camping,city driving,remote area travel,i don't think you can beat the D4.
And as for towing,as said,its just fantastic.
Its also a very safe vehicle,and a great off road vehicle with a set of a/t tyres.

[justinc]

i wish the 6 speed would do that.

Part of the amazing fuel economy achieved from these later 8spd cars is down to transmission software and gearing. Latest trip we did towing the van was averaged out at 14.6666666/100 (🤣) , it was pretty hilly terrain too. Try doing THAT in the LC200 and you'd be up around mid to high 20's

[Markus1]

In the past 12 months I've driven off-road in a 200 series diesel, a 105 series petrol, and a D3 petrol EAS. The 200 performs better imo although to be fair the D3 wasn't a diesel. My choice though for an off-road rig would be the 105 due to its simplicity and ease of modification. The D3 would be last due its complexity.

[GregMilner]

Did you end up getting out to Walcott or just stay at Bachstein?

no, we couldn’t get the women enthused about an all day drive to Walcott to camp the night with sandflies, so we only got as far as Wren Gorge and stayed at Bachsten Creek for four nights.

[GregMilner]

152147152148Just did a 800km day from Broome to Newman via the Boreline road through Shay Gap and Marble Bar. Cuts nearly 300km off the trip. And we had the whole drive pretty much to ourselves, with brilliant scenery. Why more people ignore this route and stick to the coastal blacktop is a mystery to me. The Boreline and Marble Bar roads are well maintained 100kmh dirt. Bit wet yesterday though. Calling all mobile detailers, I’ve got a full day job for you.

[DiscoClax]

Part of the amazing fuel economy achieved from these later 8spd cars is down to transmission software and gearing. Latest trip we did towing the van was averaged out at 14.6666666/100 (🤣) , it was pretty hilly terrain too. Try doing THAT in the LC200 and you'd be up around mid to high 20'sComing back over the border from the last little trip in April I miscalculated distance to next fuel vs fuel remaining. Made the call to go for it and locked the trans in 6th at 80km/hr pulling just 1300rpm, rather than doubling back to last fuel and wasting a couple of hours. Towing 2.1t of full-size dual axle caravan and fully loaded with family for a combined weight of well over 5 tonnes. Made it to the servo on range zero :) Gotta love a diesel V8. Even when it's relatively small. But I can't match your numbers. I averaged out at a real 17.1 ltrs/100kms of mixed towing. The 4.4SDV8 plus 8HP sounds really impressive. I do find mine is far too eager to go back gears and spin up, rather than digging in and using the torque. Equally holds gears too much when accelerating. I wonder if that can be reflashed?

[justinc]

Coming back over the border from the last little trip in April I miscalculated distance to next fuel vs fuel remaining. Made the call to go for it and locked the trans in 6th at 80km/hr pulling just 1300rpm, rather than doubling back to last fuel and wasting a couple of hours. Towing 2.1t of full-size dual axle caravan and fully loaded with family for a combined weight of well over 5 tonnes. Made it to the servo on range zero :) Gotta love a diesel V8. Even when it's relatively small. But I can't match your numbers. I averaged out at a real 17.1 ltrs/100kms of mixed towing. The 4.4SDV8 plus 8HP sounds really impressive. I do find mine is far too eager to go back gears and spin up, rather than digging in and using the torque. Equally holds gears too much when accelerating. I wonder if that can be reflashed?

That 14.66 was calculated at the pump, too. My dash is 1.5 optimistic. I'm very very happy with ALL aspects of this vehicle. Not too many vehicles where you can have as much cake as you want and STILL eat it all...🤣

[DiscoClax]

That 14.66 was calculated at the pump, too. My dash is 1.5 optimistic. I'm very very happy with ALL aspects of this vehicle. Not too many vehicles where you can have as much cake as you want and STILL eat it all...🤣My display is somewhat pessimistic because of my bigger tyres. Shows bad numbers, but the reality isn't nearly so bad :) My odo is about 7.5% low compared to actual distance travelled. That offsets the usual optimistic reading and then some.

[justinc]

My display is somewhat pessimistic because of my bigger tyres. Shows bad numbers, but the reality isn't nearly so bad :) My odo is about 7.5% low compared to actual distance travelled. That offsets the usual optimistic reading and then some.

I recently went from 275/45/20 to 265/50/20 and although they are only slightly taller, hasn't made a noticeable difference to odo. Was thinking to try a taller tyre again next set however my gearing is already teetering on too high when towing... 1350rpm at 110...😲

[DiscoClax]

My real economy improved when going from 255/55R19s (30") to 285/60R18s (31.5") both off-road tyres. The 285/35R22s weren't on there long enough to gather data...

[Graeme]

my gearing is already teetering on too high when towing... 1350rpm at 110...😲Dropping to 7th increases fuel consumption by a fair margin so the higher gearing can be detrimental. However if towing isn't a major component of usage then the tyre options and extra sidewall of 275/55R20 can be a real advantage, although reduced inner guard clearance would likely exclude the use of snow chains. 265/60R18 would be great!

[Narangga]

Just did a 800km day from Broome to Newman via the Boreline road through Shay Gap and Marble Bar. Cuts nearly 300km off the trip. And we had the whole drive pretty much to ourselves, with brilliant scenery. Why more people ignore this route and stick to the coastal blacktop is a mystery to me. The Boreline and Marble Bar roads are well maintained 100kmh dirt. Bit wet yesterday though. Calling all mobile detailers, I’ve got a full day job for you.

We had intended to return home via that route from Karijini in July but availability of camp sites has meant that we have had to re-jig our preferred itinerary and so won't be able to. [bigsad]
Being locked in to travelling in school holidays sometimes has its downsides. :thumbsdown:

[DiscoClax]

Being locked in to travelling in school holidays sometimes has its downsides. :thumbsdown:

Yep... I'm married to a teacher (and have kids) so I can relate to that. Limits your choices when you've got two weeks to get there and back :( Starting to consider either heading out or back or both separately, with the missus joining and/or leaving me via the nearest airport. Not cheap, and not as "family", but might be a way to get a bit further out. Had looked at trucking the rig out and flying out to join it but it has to go empty so how did you get your gear there?

[Graeme]

My daughter, also a school teacher albeit a part-timer, flies from Sydney with the kids to catch-up with her husband who gets a head start, this time joining him at Mt Isa. They're currently on the Gibb River Rd.

[PerthDisco]

We had intended to return home via that route from Karijini in July but availability of camp sites has meant that we have had to re-jig our preferred itinerary and so won't be able to. [bigsad]
Being locked in to travelling in school holidays sometimes has its downsides. :thumbsdown:

Returning via Mount Augustus to either Meeka or Murchison - Geraldton a cracker also

[Narangga]

Returning via Mount Augustus to either Meeka or Murchison - Geraldton a cracker also

No doubt a good tip but it's not really on the 'return' to Darwin...[bigsmile1]

[Narangga]

Yep... I'm married to a teacher (and have kids) so I can relate to that. Limits your choices when you've got two weeks to get there and back :( Starting to consider either heading out or back or both separately, with the missus joining and/or leaving me via the nearest airport. Not cheap, and not as "family", but might be a way to get a bit further out. Had looked at trucking the rig out and flying out to join it but it has to go empty so how did you get your gear there?

We have three weeks school holiday in July in the territory but it's just under 2400km from home to Port Hedland.[bigsad]

[Lukeis]

If you can’t trust the dash to give you accurate fuel use how are you getting the true figures?

I’m assuming you cannot trust the odometer if you can’t trust the fuel use or speedo and you can’t use a GPS as it doesn’t take in hills, or does it?!

[DiscoJeffster]

If you can’t trust the dash to give you accurate fuel use how are you getting the true figures?

I’m assuming you cannot trust the odometer if you can’t trust the fuel use or speedo and you can’t use a GPS as it doesn’t take in hills, or does it?!

If the tyres are original size then you can trust the odometer to be accurate. The speedo reads high deliberately. The fuel, probably also deliberately from a marketing perspective.

[justinc]

If you can’t trust the dash to give you accurate fuel use how are you getting the true figures?

I’m assuming you cannot trust the odometer if you can’t trust the fuel use or speedo and you can’t use a GPS as it doesn’t take in hills, or does it?!

Odometer is fine, I plot my litres to the actual distance travelled. The fuel average dash figures are marketing hype. I have however attained the magic 9.4l/100 these cars are supposed to get, the dash at that point read 7.9!!

[Eevo]

If you can’t trust the dash to give you accurate fuel use how are you getting the true figures?




dont talk to me about that!

last night, in the ute, it displays how many km til empty.
light comes on at 80km and ive never taken it before 60km til emptry


last night, it said 80km to go, and i had 75km til i got home
then 60km to go and 55km til home
then 40km to go and 35km til home
then 20km to go and 15km til home
but with it displaying 20km to go, it was empty, and i wasnt home :(

[Eevo]

Odometer is fine, I plot my litres to the actual distance travelled. The fuel average dash figures are marketing hype. I have however attained the magic 9.4l/100 these cars are supposed to get, the dash at that point read 7.9!!


i cant get the dash to get below 12l/h

[Narangga]

Odometer is fine, ...

It must be the cold weather that does it for you Justin as my Defender, D2 & D3 odometers have all been erroneous, even when run with standard issue tyres on standard rims. That's when map, road sign and sat nav distances become helpful.

[DiscoMick]

I downloaded a simple fuel consumption ap from Play Store to my phone. I reset the odometer when I fill up, then next time I refill I just enter the amount of fuel and distance travelled and get the figure.

[ATH]

Whenever I fill up I just do a rough calculation using what passes as a brain in my head and if it's about right according to if I'm towing or not, that's it. I don't spend much time worrying about it or watching the dash to check whether my right foot is too heavy or not.
Got better things to do with my time. :)
AlanH.

[DiscoJeffster]

Whenever I fill up I just do a rough calculation using what passes as a brain in my head and if it's about right according to if I'm towing or not, that's it. I don't spend much time worrying about it or watching the dash to check whether my right foot is too heavy or not.
Got better things to do with my time. :)
AlanH.

Yup. I buy car. I fill it. I use it. It is what it is. I don’t choose the car based on whether it’s 14L/100km or 9L/100km. Well I might at the initial stage but once I own it and I realised they lied more than expected, I’m screwed anyway so I don’t live it.

[Graeme]

I adjusted the CCF consumption fudge factor in both my earlier D4 and the current RR to be as realistic as possible so that I could be better informed about the remaining fuel.

[101RRS]

While the l/100km readout is always optimistic by about 11% (I just add 1l/100km to readout and it is close enough for Govt work), the internal calcs the system uses to work out range must use a "real" l/100 rather than the fabricated one it displays.

I am not sure what the calcs are based on, but out west on the flat with a steady speed, the remaining distance display is always spot on - not so where you have city usage mixed with highway usage and hilly usage. The one thing that I do know is the formula used in the computers is not fuel usage since last fill. It seems to be something like the average used over the last 100km or 200km is used to calculate range to empty.

garry

[DiscoMick]

Our Mazda has it and the change between city and highway driving range is noticeable. Much longer on the highway. I think it updates every 10 Ks.
I have filled up in the city after driving there for a week and headed out on the highway and the range to empty figure has remained unchanged down to the Gold Coast, cruising at 100 kmh.

[donh54]

Yesterday I was in a DAF CF85 pulling an AB Triple side-tipper set. (Empty, thank goodness).
Coming up Walleroo hill on the Carnarvon Highway, the dash was telling me it was burning diesel at the rate of 85 litres per 100klm.
One of the selling points for the DAF, is their fuel efficiency!

[scarry]

I have seen the D4 dash readout at 56l/100,in low range in soft sand....actual was probably 60l/100.

The reading is way out of whack,i don't use it anymore,always optimistic.

A bit different from one of my brothers 10yr old Plado,it is spot on.

Hopefully LR have it sorted by the time the new Defender arrives.[bighmmm]

[DiscoJeffster]

Hopefully LR have it sorted by the time the new Defender arrives.[bighmmm]

It’s a computer. They dictate the programming, maths, variability. It’s inaccuracy is deliberate. No they won’t sort it for the next model for the same reasons no manufacturer ever has

[Konradical]

Yesterday I was in a DAF CF85 pulling an AB Triple side-tipper set. (Empty, thank goodness).
Coming up Walleroo hill on the Carnarvon Highway, the dash was telling me it was burning diesel at the rate of 85 litres per 100klm.
One of the selling points for the DAF, is their fuel efficiency!The T909s with E15s I used to work on would be getting 1L per 1Km towing three empty drop decks on flat roads between Katherine and Port Augusta. The way back loaded with hay, they would see up to 10L per 1Km if they had a head wind. A couple of the driver's would drive at night when/if the weather was better.

[Robmacca]

I've been using one of those Scangauge II for years now. Once u enter all the settings and the correct "fudge %" factor, then the economy reading that it puts out is pretty accurate. The Fuel required to fill your tank is also 99% spot on as well...

[INter674]

Back on the 200 series v LR..my fisherman mate had a 200 and is well aware of its failings and has spent heaps on gvm and other mods. Snorkel next on the list...

I am looking for a decent RR which causes him much concern..why don't you buy a 200 he says...RRs are way too complicated..there's too much to go wrong..he says☺

I resist pointing out the bleeding obvious similarities and probs with the 200 but i simply can't win on resale. His trade in is less than 10k on what he paid 3 years ago😐

Mind you he will not drive the 200 on dirt roads due to the intake design issue...he has a Patrol for that task!!

[akovach]

Much the same can be said about a Discovery where comfort and luxury tend to take precedence over capability as in the LC200 and this tends to come with an inflated price tag..
A Defender or a 79 Series would outperform either of these offroad because they are both a No nonsense 4WD that are designed with capability being the foremost goal.
Modern SUV's are a compromise between Luxury/Comfort/Looks and 4WD capability/Reliability and that's just fine if that's the sort of vehicle you want to drive and being a D2a owner I Completely understand But for hard core everyday use offroad it is hard to surpass a Defender/79 Series/Patrol.

I would put any stock Discovery 3,4 or 5 over any stock Defender (can't say about Toyota as I haven't driven one) anywhere and it will outperform the Defender in every way and give you comfort and safety.

[DiscoMick]

I think there are many situations when a Disco 3-4 would outperform our Defender, but I'm sticking with the Defer.

[slug_burner]

I think I will have to agree with Andrew K. With the D2 the Defender still had the storage space up it’s sleeve. The D3 took care of that. Don’t know that much about the space in the D5 but the D3and D4 match the Defender for storage space if you are not using the back seats. I would not be surprised if the smaller engine in the Defenders would get more mileage than the V6 Disco. But comfort and safety the Discos have it over the Defenders.

I’d rather have to clean out a Defender after muddy boots than a Disco!