D2 ZF Auto box - Bits therein.

[Rick Fischer]

Hello all.

As a previous D2 owner, one which travelled almost all of the continent over a period of 13yrs and ended up with around 300Kkm when we parted company, did think this should be shared. Don't know if the majority of D2 community is aware.

Was the other day at a transmission overhaul and repair facility for one of my other cars, and did notice a D2 up on one of the other hoists. Did discuss with the business owner (as one does) [smilebigeye]

It would appear that the/a Sprague clutch had failed, and what I assumed was the lock up clutch (at rear of box) was also on the way out. Unfortunately for the D2 owner there are no spares available. ZF no longer make the box and no longer make any parts, and there are none available hanging around on a shelf in Oz.

The business owner said he managed source the necesary overseas but the prices were unrealistic. Would result in an overhauled box for $7-8000. D2s are around that price. Don't know about the likes of Craddok and Blanchard etc in UK????

Might be time for AULRO cognosenti to consider other options e.g.:

Deffie TD5 maunual gearbox conversion. Mmmmmmmmmmm??
D3/D4 gearbox or D3 D4 engine gearbox conversion, or
someone manufacturing/remanufacturing critical ZF parts ???


Might also add, the only trouble I ever had with my D2 GB was the wiring on the outside chafing.

Guess there is another word to wise that I recall from one of the Dealer mechs at the time, an ex Alice Springs Land Rover guy, despite what LR says said, that was change the oil and the internal filter every 100 000km. That means dropping the pan. I did.

Hope the bits about spares is all a furfy, the filter and oil is not.

Might also be good idea to ensure front drive shaft aft joint in good nick [wink11] (Flogging the auto box to death even worse idea now)

Cheers

Rick F

[INter674]

Mmm wonder how Ashcroft goes wrt parts?

One Vic auto shop said same to me some time ago ie no new parts etc etc.

I had the same prob with a 3l Paj some years ago and 2nd hand parts were used in the rebuild. Vic auto shop said they simply re use parts...he had a bone yard ...but eventually the supply will dry up I guess.

No doubt Marks or others will come up with a conversion if demand is there but at what price?

In the end all cars suffer from parts supply issues so nothing new there.

[justinc]

Haven't been able to get sprags etc for years now. The worst tging is that some components of the sprag ate PLASTIC. There are full metal ones in some of the BMW and I think Jaguar 4hp22 however they are very thin on the ground...

[donh54]

All of these (and other obsolete parts) are man-made. Surely some enterprising machine shop somewhere can do a replacement? Could be a lucrative little market, given the popularity of the ZF boxes with various, usually higher end, makers.

[INter674]

Plenty of 3l bmw x5s being wrecked for the excellent motor too with the same box...so the supply of 2nd hand boxes across the world should last a while yet☺

[twr7cx]

The business owner said he managed source the necesary overseas but the prices were unrealistic. Would result in an overhauled box for $7-8000. D2s are around that price. Don't know about the likes of Craddok and Blanchard etc in UK????

Rick, he can't be looking too far. Ashcroft-Transmissions in the UK are still supplying them for around $3,000.00 AUD delivered including the core deposit, GST and import duties at the current exchange rate... I imagine that labour charges for the removal of the old and fitment of the new are less than $4-5,000.00...

Doesn't look like they list any of the individual parts mentioned for sale separately < Ashcroft Transmissions (https://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/diy-rebuild-kits/zf-rebuild-kits.html) > but I wonder if they will/would supply those parts if they were directly engaged by an enquiry...

[stevo]

yes I found the same thing a few years ago, but plenty to be found in wreckers or get them off BMW owners who are converting to a manual box

[CU55TM Disco]

Time for a 6hp conversion [biggrin]

[John_D4]

Time for a 6hp conversion [biggrin]

Sorry, I’m not familiar with that. Can u pls elaborate?

[twr7cx]

Sorry, I’m not familiar with that. Can u pls elaborate?

Its the newer ZF 6 speed automatic transmissions found in the Disco 3 and early 4’s and many other brands such as Aston Martin, Ford, VW, BMW, etc.

[INter674]

Mmmm ZF 6 speed has a bad reputation. ..yes😐??

[Bohica]

Time for a 6hp conversion [biggrin]

And a 3L Lion engine. Oh and a Getrag MT82 box

[CU55TM Disco]

Mmmm ZF 6 speed has a bad reputation. ..yes😐??

I think mainly because the trans cooler fails on the 6 speed falcons filling the trans with coolant.

But if it can handle the power of a tricked up Barra, it'll hold all the td5 can throw!

[John_D4]

Interesting. Curious tho, is there an adapter plate and controller to suit a D2?

[twr7cx]

Mmmm ZF 6 speed has a bad reputation. ..yes😐??


I think mainly because the trans cooler fails on the 6 speed falcons filling the trans with coolant.

I’m not aware of a bad reputation for the ZF 6 speed transmission itself. I know the implementation in the Falcon had issues with the integrated automatic transmission cooler inside the radiator allowing coolant to enter the transmissions oil system when it failed - this caused issues and damaged boxes but wasn’t fault of the ZF product.
In the Disco 3 and 4 realm they seem to work well and hold up, especially when properly maintained (plenty of threads on what that involves in that section of the forum).



Interesting. Curious tho, is there an adapter plate and controller to suit a D2?

No, there is no kits available. Not even aware of anyone having successfully done it.


Regarding putting it into a Td5 I wonder how the gear ratios would compare - does it have a lower final drive to reduce highway RPM? Is first gear shorter? Or is it just the same overall spread from top to bottom but with more gears inbetween?

[Rick Fischer]

Rick, he can't be looking too far. Ashcroft-Transmissions in the UK are still supplying them for around $3,000.00 AUD delivered including the core deposit, GST and import duties at the current exchange rate... I imagine that labour charges for the removal of the old and fitment of the new are less than $4-5,000.00...

Doesn't look like they list any of the individual parts mentioned for sale separately < Ashcroft Transmissions (https://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/diy-rebuild-kits/zf-rebuild-kits.html) > but I wonder if they will/would supply those parts if they were directly engaged by an enquiry...

Hiya

Reputable xmission specialist, if he can't source reasonable priced replacement parts through his various supply chains, what do you reckon about average punter in here, or out there for that matter??? (Same bloke managed to find me the (only in Oz) set of BMW E30 diff bearings to suit my diff. Had to come in from WA.)

He did say he could get ZF stuff but price was excessive, plus a rear clutch of some sort. similar price?? that makes around $5-6K for bit/s plus GST, freight and labour. Don't reckon there is much change out of $8K. What is the current red book value of a D2?

You are talking about full transmission. Ashcroft are "rebuilding" them but no mention is made of new clutches etc. Just strip clean inspect and rebuild and test. No mention of no longer available "replacement" parts such as the critical clutches. Arguably if they look alright they are just re-installing them.

I will be happy to be contradicted. Would mean there isn't a ZF parts problem out there, and auto D2s will be around for many years to come :0) O/wise D2s will be constrained by the number of operational autos, or mod kits. :0(

Cheers

RF

[twr7cx]

You are talking about full transmission. Ashcroft are "rebuilding" them but no mention is made of new clutches etc. Just strip clean inspect and rebuild and test. No mention of no longer available "replacement" parts such as the critical clutches. Arguably if they look alright they are just re-installing them.

I can’t comment particulars about what they’re company is doing. If you’d like further details I’m sure you can contact them and they’ll have a chat to you about it.

If it helps, their website offers the following:


A common problem with all ZF 4HP22/24 boxes is the failure of the oneway 'sprag' clutch. Once the cams in this one way sprag clutch 'flip' the unit will slip both ways resulting in the vehicle only pulling off with the shifter in position '1' not 'D' and driving OK when shifted up to position 2,3 and D until you stop then you need to pull it back to '1' to start off again. It is not feasible to change this unit in each rebuild as this one part is approx £ 400. By disassembling the 'sealed unit' we were able to examine the profile of the cams and understand how they work, from here the challenge was to find another cam from another type of autobox that would fit and had the correct profile to make the unit stronger by not allowing the cams to flip. After quite a lot of searching we found one, 're-cammed' some of these clutches and thoroughly tested them, we have not had one fail since. This is an example of how we are able to use our engineering background to understand a problem and cost effectively make the unit stronger without having to raise our prices.We have also recently invested £ 20,000 in a test machine. This machine allows us to do 2 things. Firstly once the valve body has been rebuilt we are able to fit it to a plate on the test rig and run the valve body through its cycle with 45 deg pre-heated oil to simulate as close as we can get 'real world conditions' The hydraulic valve bodies are run through manually by winding a valve to simulate the governor increasing in speed and various pressure gauges are monitored to see that the valve body is applying the correct clutches at the correct pressures. When testing the electronic ZF valve bodies once the solenoids are all tested this cycling procedure can initially be run through manually to check all is well then the computer can run up to 100 full run cycles going from 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and lock up down to 1st again to ensure no valve are sticking and the solenoids are not failing when hot and working hard.
https://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/images/source/hydra.jpg
We are also able to fit a test plate to the autobox in place of the valve body and apply heated oil at pressure to check we have no leakage or pressure drop on any of the clutch packs.
This machine has enabled us to improve the quality of our boxes by identifying any potential faults or problems before the box reaches the customer.


All our boxes are fully rebuilt including the valve body and come complete with a rebuilt torque converter.

Ashcroft Transmissions (https://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/automatic-gearboxes/zf4hp22eh.html)


All our boxes come with a rebuilt torque converter which must be changed in conjunction with the autobox as they share the same oil circuit thus debris from a previous failure could contaminate a fresh autobox causing further problems if not changed.
How we rebuild them
When we rebuild a box, the unit is stripped down, washed in both Safety Kleen and hot wash tanks then the casings are shot blasted with glass bead, then painted. Once "Prepped" the stripped unit is sent to the build area in a plastic tub.

The autoboxes have a fixed set of new parts including friction plates, pump bush, filter, gaskets and seals, Once the parts are picked the first step in the build process is to lay the parts out on the bench for inspection, If they pass inspection they are used again, if not they go in the scrap bin.

Once the valve body is built it is put on our 'Hydratest' machine which cycles the valve body up to 100 start stop cycles to check all valves are operating correctly, it also checks all solenoids electronically to ensure they are also operating correctly. When the autobox is assembled we fit a test plate in place of the valve body and do a pressurised hydraulic leak test on all of the clutch packs to check they are correctly fitted and have no leaks. These two checks with the Hydratest machine help us to identify and potential problems before the box is sent out.

Once built the unit is stamped with a number and a spec sheet filled out giving us info on the unit specification, who built it, when it was built and exactly what parts were fitted.

Ashcroft Transmissions (https://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/automatic-gearboxes.html)

It’s not meant to be reflective of your Reputable xmission specialist, but this a company that is only working with a few select models IOT provide specialist expertise on these only. It’s likely they know them better than other organisations that are working on a much wider spread of vehicles and models.

But my original point remains that there are ‘rebuilt’ transmissions available, for significantly less than your initial suggested figures, to keep the D2’s up and running.

[Rick Fischer]

COOL! [thumbsupbig]

That info is now all out there. Should perhaps go into "good oil" :0)

cheers

RF

[rick130]

I wonder if we could fit the 8 speed....[emoji848][emoji12][emoji23]

[CU55TM Disco]

No, there is no kits available. Not even aware of anyone having successfully done it.


Regarding putting it into a Td5 I wonder how the gear ratios would compare - does it have a lower final drive to reduce highway RPM? Is first gear shorter? Or is it just the same overall spread from top to bottom but with more gears inbetween?

Aparently U need the version from the AWD territory to adapt the Xfer Case too. so Ive read.

The ratios just offer more of a spread across the essentially the same 1st and Top gear ratios, keeping the engine in the torqy sweet spot.

[discorevy]

Aparently U need the version from the AWD territory to adapt the Xfer Case too. so Ive read.

The ratios just offer more of a spread across the essentially the same 1st and Top gear ratios, keeping the engine in the torqy sweet spot.

Where did you read this if you don't mind sharing ?.
I think the hardware could be feasible and I would love to do this but I don't know of anyone that does a stand alone mechatronic controller for these boxes

[twr7cx]

but I don't know of anyone that does a stand alone mechatronic controller for these boxes

Compushift < COMPUSHIFT Sport and Pro Transmission Controllers and Transmission Control Systems (https://www.hgmelectronics.com/compushift-sport-and-pro/) > still only support the ZF 4HP transmissions but they're supporting other 6 speed transmissions now so perhaps the 6HP might come in the future.

[CU55TM Disco]

Where did you read this if you don't mind sharing ?.

It would of been on here more than likely.



Compushift < COMPUSHIFT Sport and Pro Transmission Controllers and Transmission Control Systems (https://www.hgmelectronics.com/compushift-sport-and-pro/) > still only support the ZF 4HP transmissions but they're supporting other 6 speed transmissions now so perhaps the 6HP might come in the future.

Haltech now offer a direct plugin ECU to suit Barra 6's that also has an aditional plug for the factory harness and thus, controlling the factory Trans. So its doable, obviously, but is it avail stand alone???

Im sure some of the Bimmer blokes are tuning their ZF boxes somehow?