Lithium, again...

[Ranga]

I've noticed that lithium batteries have come down quite a bit, and a caravanning group I sort of subscribe to has members (full of sceptical old tight-arses!) that are really happy with these 12V 100ah Lithium Ion LiFePo4 Deep Cycle Rechargeable Battery (http://www.lowenergydevelopments.com.au/BATT-100-SOLARKING-Lithium-FF'search=12V%20100ah%20Lithium%20Ion%20LiFePo4%20 Deep%20Cycle%20Rechargeable%20Battery).

So, keen to hear thoughts on whether they're a good option in my slide-on camper. I imagine they require some special charging, and not just a straight feed from the alternator (maybe DC-DC just to keep the voltage in check).

Anyone care to add their thoughts?

[austastar]

Hi,
Link not working, so not sure of the exact battery you mean.
However, for what it is worth,....
I put a 200AH Fusion battery in my slide on as the 100AH Fullriver AGM was loosing capacity.
Some observations so far.
It is bigger, but lighter. Has some built in smarts such as temperature and current limiting
Will accept 50A till just about on float. (40A recommended)
The fridge cycling on and off barely makes a difference to the voltage graph on the Bluetooth phone app.
Two days camping up the lakes on the June LWE and it charged back to float in about 30 minutes of driving.
Some hassles.
It was advertised as a drop in replacement but that would severely limit its potential.
It does use the dc2dc/MPPT charger (Enerdrive 40Amp) well, both solar and alternator (priority).
I also needed a new 240V charger (50 Amp).
I needed to change/add quite a bit of wiring.
The main feed still comes via the SC 80 Traxide isolator, but it would normally be wired direct to the cranking battery,
The dc2dc will sense the charge and test the cranking battery is being charged before connecting the Lithium.
The charger also has an ignition sensor input so it will connect if that is on.
It was an expensive exercise, but I am confident it will be worth it in the long run.
Cheers

[Ranga]

Hi,
Link not working, so not sure of the exact battery you mean.
However, for what it is worth,....
I put a 200AH Fusion battery in my slide on as the 100AH Fullriver AGM was loosing capacity.
Some observations so far.
It is bigger, but lighter. Has some built in smarts such as temperature and current limiting
Will accept 50A till just about on float. (40A recommended)
The fridge cycling on and off barely makes a difference to the voltage graph on the Bluetooth phone app.
Two days camping up the lakes on the June LWE and it charged back to float in about 30 minutes of driving.
Some hassles.
It was advertised as a drop in replacement but that would severely limit its potential.
It does use the dc2dc/MPPT charger (Enerdrive 40Amp) well, both solar and alternator (priority).
I also needed a new 240V charger (50 Amp).
I needed to change/add quite a bit of wiring.
The main feed still comes via the SC 80 Traxide isolator, but it would normally be wired direct to the cranking battery,
The dc2dc will sense the charge and test the cranking battery is being charged before connecting the Lithium.
The charger also has an ignition sensor input so it will connect if that is on.
It was an expensive exercise, but I am confident it will be worth it in the long run.
CheersThanks Dave.

Another link for the battery - Search - 12V 100ah Lithium Ion LiFePo4 Deep Cycle Rechargeable Battery (http://www.lowenergydevelopments.com.au/index.php?route=product/search&search=12V%20100ah%20Lithium%20Ion%20LiFePo4%20Dee p%20Cycle%20Rechargeable%20Battery)

So, is it just a matter of putting the DC-DC between my existing auxiliary in the Defender (which has a Traxide unit between it and the cranker), and the lithium in the camper?

[PhilipA]

I have been studying this for a while now as I have just fitted a 35AH Lifepo4 to my camper trailer. I am still waiting for the DC DC charger but ran my lights for 3 nights with only a 1hour ac 6amp charge needed to fully recharge .

1 The resting voltage of a lithium is 14.4 volts fully charged and about 13.8 at "float'
if you have a conventional dual battery controller ( which reads the starting battery voltage) I can see the Lithium feeding the Lead Acid until the charges equalize at 12.7or 12.4 or 12 which means lots of capacity loss for the Lithium. As I read it you must isolate the batteries immediately they are not charging with a DC DC charger with ignition cutoff.

2 Also a pure Lithium charger does not have "float" . It immediately turns off once the voltage reaches 14.4 or thereabouts, Thus the red and green lights on the 240 volt chargers. I wonder if my NOCO ( lead AGM Lithium) charger for the wife's Lithium Golf battery failed because of this.

3 AFAIK none of the DC DC chargers readily available have the "turn off" feature. I have a Turnigy 10 amp or 80 watt dc dc charger on order from Hobby King , which I will power through a relay activated for accessory off or on, from my rear cigarette plug as it is easier than powering it from IGN. The Turnigy is only say 8 amps at 4xLifepo4 but this is within the envelope for the battery. It also has a timer turn off period mainly for lion . I do not know the "cut in" voltage but I have never seen my wife's battery cut in as Lithiums retain their voltage very well. I measured hers at 13.88? after 1 week off charge.

4 I am going to isolate the trailer power while charging the camper battery by switching off the trailer plug power wire as it will be in the circuit for the lights.

My requirements are pretty specific as I did not have a battery in my camper and relied on the car connection via an extension cord from the trailer plug. I plan to fit a small water pump as well and if the LIfepo4 is anywhere near 35AH, I should have no trouble running for several days.

Regards Philip A

[W&KO]

I’m a little daunted on battery selection, there is a big range in pricing.

I am certain a DC-DC is required

[austastar]

Thanks Dave.

Another link for the battery - Search - 12V 100ah Lithium Ion LiFePo4 Deep Cycle Rechargeable Battery (http://www.lowenergydevelopments.com.au/index.php?route=product/search&search=12V%20100ah%20Lithium%20Ion%20LiFePo4%20Dee p%20Cycle%20Rechargeable%20Battery)

So, is it just a matter of putting the DC-DC between my existing auxiliary in the Defender (which has a Traxide unit between it and the cranker), and the lithium in the camper?Hi,
That is what I did. (But from the back of the Traxide)
I also ran a trigger from ignition to the appropriate pin on the dc2dc charger while I was mucking about with wiring.
Cheers

[DiscoMick]

Drivesafe has posted that a DC-DC is essential to properly charge a lithium battery, because they require a higher charging rate, but no doubt he can explain that better than me.

[drivesafe]

Hi Mick and I have been following this thread, but because I sell another brand of Lithium batteries, I did not want to run down some other brand.


While it is always a case of “Buyer Beware” but this is not how it should be on AULRO.


Some time back I did some research on these cheap Lithium batteries and I was not all that impressed.


They are made using a lower standard lithium cell but will most likely work just fine for the basic camping needs, like running a fridge and some lights and powering a “SMALL” inverter.


It’s the use of inverters that could pose a problem with these batteries, primarily because of the low rated BMS they come with.


The margin of error is pathetic and if you ran anything bigger than a 1000w inverter, you will most likely damage the BMS and if it is damaged in this type of operation, no warranty.


Their maximum operating current is 80 amp but just 25% more and you have reached their peak. Not much margin of error there.


Now to charges. Any type of charger, be it a 240VAC charger or a DC/DC charger, as long as the charger is specifically designed to charge lithium batteries, they should be fine.


A word of caution, lithium batteries are very hard on most types of chargers.


Philip is correct in that a lithium charge cycle should fully charge a battery and then “turn off “


But you can use a setup that charges at say 14.4v in BULK and ABSORPTION, and then drops to to 13.6v in float. This is because there will most likely be no current draw at 13.6v.


One more curious thing about those batteries. They have a MINIMUM charge current requirement of 10 amp. That is a rather strange requirement!

[Ranga]

Thanks everyone.

Tim,
Do you have a wiring guide that suits my needs - currently a cranker and an AGM deep cycle separated by an SC80, with the need to replace the AGM deep cycle in the camper - that works when replacing the camper AGM with lithium?

[Ranga]

Hi,
That is what I did. (But from the back of the Traxide)
I also ran a trigger from ignition to the appropriate pin on the dc2dc charger while I was mucking about with wiring.
Cheers
So, a connection directly from the Traxide output straight to the DC-DC charger, with an ignition trigger to turn off the charger when the vehicle is off? Do you have an auxiliary in the Defender?

[austastar]

Hi,
No auxiliary in the Defender - yet.
I did make up a lead straight from the cranking battery to an Anderston plug behind the cab, (via a 50A fuse). However I'm using the connector from the Traxide by choice as it delays the drain from the cranking battery for a few seconds more.
The ignition trigger wire to the Enerdrive dc2dc is also somewhat overkill, as the dc2dc can sense the cranking battery is being charged.
As aside, if you connect the ign trigger to 12V positive it will drain the source battery, overriding the charging sensing algorithm.
Cheers

[Ranga]

Another thing I'm curious about that I'm yet to research is charge time. I think DC-DC chargers by nature have a slower charge time. This is probably negated if doing lots of driving, and/or lots of sun, but interested to see what the difference is. My understanding is whilst DC-DC chargers might be able to charge batteries to a higher SOC, this comes at a cost of much slower charging. On the other hand, direct charging from the alternator (perhaps via a Traxide unit) might allow faster charging, but not to full SOC. Seems like an obvious trade off, but no idea which is better or worse (or either).

[Milton477]

Another thing I'm curious about that I'm yet to research is charge time. I think DC-DC chargers by nature have a slower charge time. This is probably negated if doing lots of driving, and/or lots of sun, but interested to see what the difference is. My understanding is whilst DC-DC chargers might be able to charge batteries to a higher SOC, this comes at a cost of much slower charging. On the other hand, direct charging from the alternator (perhaps via a Traxide unit) might allow faster charging, but not to full SOC. Seems like an obvious trade off, but no idea which is better or worse (or either).

I thought that I could get away without a DC to DC & tried charging the Lithiums in the van off the end of the Traxide system. Well I couldn't. The Lithiums are at 13.4V ish most of the time & by the time you factor in the volt drop from the alternator to the van, the difference is minimal so little/no charging takes place. I have fitted an Enerdrive 50A DC DC in the van to solve the problem.

[austastar]

Hi,
June LWE, got the Lithium fully charged on 240V.
Left home and drove about 90 minutes, the dc2dc did not cut in.
Camped 3 days, 2 nights running fridge, heater and lights.
Driving home, the dc2dc cut in on startup and ran for 30 minutes till charged and then stayed off.

They are a different beast altogether. Completely different graphs to the old AGM.
Cheers

[Ranga]

Hi,
June LWE, got the Lithium fully charged on 240V.
Left home and drove about 90 minutes, the dc2dc did not cut in.
Camped 3 days, 2 nights running fridge, heater and lights.
Driving home, the dc2dc cut in on startup and ran for 30 minutes till charged and then stayed off.

They are a different beast altogether. Completely different graphs to the old AGM.
Cheers

Wow, that's a very quick charge time! Do you know what the voltage was before you left for home?

[austastar]

Hi,
below is a post I put up on Myswag, which will give you the details.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,
well I bit the bullet and up graded to a Lithium 200AH and managed to cobble it together for the LWE.
It behaves differently to the lead acid, and I'm not 100% sure of my graphs as I didn't log driving times, but below is my interpretation of what happened.
https://i.imgur.com/92HS429.jpg
Got the battery connected, connected solar panel at first arrow, changed over to 240V charger at second arrow, achieved float at the third arrow.




https://i.imgur.com/TMIo854.jpg
I turned on the fridge about 2pm, at 3 pm I turned off the 240V charger (on power supply mode) and drove to the Lakes till 4pm, but there is no dramatic change on the graph. I am thinking that the DC2DC charger is taking the battery as charged and on float so has not applied any voltage to the battery on start up or during driving.




https://i.imgur.com/0AvwMMN.jpg
Camped at the Lakes, I attempted to connect the solar panel, but found out later that I had a faulty lead, so I am thinking there is no solar input at all.




https://i.imgur.com/GxzyIlW.jpg
I drove home about 3:30 till 5pm, yea, the charger has put some voltage into the battery after 2 days usage, but achieves float in about 30 minutes.
That is impressive, if my assumptions are correct.




So the next thing to do is tidy up the install and repair the faulty solar connection.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheers

[Eevo]

interesting all these restrictions for lithium.

i have lithium battery in my bike and they are drop in, no dc-dc charger, no changes. it just works.

[drivesafe]

OK folks and some operating explanations needed here.


First off, no conventional VSR isolators or my isolators will work in any vehicle, when sting to charge lithium batteries direct from the alternator.


With Land Rovers, and most European vehicles, the problem becomes worse, and I will explain later.


The reason my isolators do a far better and faster recharge of LEAD ACID batteries when used in Land Rovers, is because my isolators allow the cranking battery to supply some of it’s capacity to assist the auxiliary battery’s power supply demands while camping.


This means that when you start driving, because you have draw the cranking battery down from a fully charged state, the BMS will see the lower cranking battery voltage at startup, and will adjust the operating voltage to a higher level for a longer time.


Ordinary VSR isolators do not draw down the Cranking battery, so when you start your drive, the BMS will see the cranking battery is either full or nearly full and adjusts the operating voltage to a lower level soon after starting your motor.


With lithium batteries, the problem becomes more complex.


If you have fully charged or only slightly charged lithium batteries, their voltage remains the same, above 13.0v.


If you have them linked to the cranking battery, to allow them to be charged directly by the alternator, when you start your motor and the BMS monitors the cranking battery’s terminal voltage, the BMS is going to see a 13.0v, because the lithium batteries are keep the whole systems voltage at their normal operating voltage.


The result is that the BMS sees a voltage level that indicates the cranking battery is fully charged and no high voltage operation is needed. This lower voltage means the lithiums will never charge.


So the only way to charge lithium batteries properly while driving, is with a DC/DC device.


Even with the 60 amp Sterling Battery to Battery chargers I supply, the standard cranking battery + Optima auxiliary battery setup using one of my isolators, and charging say two 100Ah batteries in a caravan or camper trailer, will have the bulk of the used capacity of all of these batteries the charged in a much shorter time than the two 100Ah lithium batteries will be able to be charged using the 60 amp Sterling.


But if you are just using the two 100Ah lithiums in the van or camper trailer, then the DC/DC device, while taking longer during the bulk charge stage, will bring the two lithiums to a near fully charged state in a shorter drive time than you can bring the four lead acid batteries to a near fully charged state.


The above assumes all batteries are in a low state of charge at the beginning of the day’s drive.


Also note, my isolators work perfectly in vehicles with STOP/START function, and again, direct alternator to lithium recharging becomes an even bigger problem.


Where you have a vehicle where the alternator’s operating voltage can be maintained at a constant low 14V, such as a Ford Ranger, direct alternator to lithium battery charging will be the optimum way to charge lithiums but you have to use an IGNITION controlled isolator.

[W&KO]

Thanks for the explanation drivesafe.

I’m not convinced converting to lithium is complex given the OP has a 300tdi so not a modern/late model car.

Costs aside the way I read your explanation is if the OP converted to lithium than it would be best change both the vehicle AUX-AGM and the camper AGM to lithium to maximize the function of the DC-DC rather than keep the vehicle aux-AGM and camper lithium.

Austatar seems to getting good performance from his setup with just a starter and lithium in the camper.

I’m considering the switch, space and weight is becoming an issue for planned overland trip.

I have a TD5 > basic redarc isolator > 110amp/hr AGM. I’m not interested in using the capacity in my starter hence why I didn’t consider a traxide isolator when I started the build and acknowledge that cost per amp it’s way I front of lithium.

To me this is a simple switch to gain more capacity. I also in a position not having to use a drop in replacement, I need to start researching sizes.

TD5 Starter > Enerdrive DC-DC > either a Revolution (or similar) drop in or a EV Powerpac all backed up with 2 x 125w panels on the roof and a 125w portable blanket.

How does that sound??

[DiscoMick]

As I understand it, if the alternator generates one level of output, then it's okay, but if the alternator varies it's output depending on the state of the battery, then lithium is a problem unless a DC-DC is used.
So a 300 Tdi and our Defender both have standard output alternators but a D4 is variable.
Is that right?

[drivesafe]

Thanks for the explanation drivesafe.
I’m not convinced converting to lithium is complex given the OP has a 300tdi so not a modern/late model car.

Costs aside the way I read your explanation is if the OP converted to lithium than it would be best change both the vehicle AUX-AGM and the camper AGM to lithium to maximize the function of the DC-DC rather than keep the vehicle aux-AGM and camper lithium.

Austatar seems to getting good performance from his setup with just a starter and lithium in the camper.

I’m considering the switch, space and weight is becoming an issue for planned overland trip.

I have a TD5 > basic redarc isolator > 110amp/hr AGM. I’m not interested in using the capacity in my starter hence why I didn’t consider a traxide isolator when I started the build and acknowledge that cost per amp it’s way I front of lithium.

To me this is a simple switch to gain more capacity. I also in a position not having to use a drop in replacement, I need to start researching sizes.

TD5 Starter > Enerdrive DC-DC > either a Revolution (or similar) drop in or a EV Powerpac all backed up with 2 x 125w panels on the roof and a 125w portable blanket.

How does that sound??

Hi W&KO and your choice to leave your cranking battery alone is your business.


But it’s a waste of at least 40Ah of usable capacity that could be put to good use and at the same time be a considerable cost saving.


Note, if you did have one of my isolators, you would not only have that extra 40Ah available, but you would need a much shorter drive time to replace used battery capacity as compared most likely extend the operating lifespan of your cranking battery.


Next, if you have a lithium in your tow vehicle and lithiums in your camper trailer, you are going to need two separate DC/DC devices. Thats a huge setup cost.


You would be far better off leaving the tow vehicle setup as is and just concentrate on your camper battery setup.

[drivesafe]

As I understand it, if the alternator generates one level of output, then it's okay, but if the alternator varies it's output depending on the state of the battery, then lithium is a problem unless a DC-DC is used.
So a 300 Tdi and our Defender both have standard output alternators but a D4 is variable.
Is that right?
Hi Mick and pretty well on the money.

Pumas have a variable voltage alternator operation but not a full on SMART operation like the D4s.

A word of caution. There are some videos on YouTube, ranting on about fitting dual battery systems to D5s. If you follow the instructions, you will most likely destroy your cranking battery in short time.

Just be careful of the "EXPERT" advice out there.

[W&KO]

Hi W&KO and your choice to leave your cranking battery alone is your business.


But it’s a waste of at least 40Ah of usable capacity that could be put to good use and at the same time be a considerable cost saving.


Note, if you did have one of my isolators, you would not only have that extra 40Ah available, but you would need a much shorter drive time to replace used battery capacity as compared most likely extend the operating lifespan of your cranking battery.


Next, if you have a lithium in your tow vehicle and lithiums in your camper trailer, you are going to need two separate DC/DC devices. Thats a huge setup cost.


You would be far better off leaving the tow vehicle setup as is and just concentrate on your camper battery setup.

I’m not towing,just have the one starter and AUX for the house as stated above.

You say it’s my choice leaving my starter, I stated my position so we wouldn’t get bogged down about your products. Yes I used your isolator on my previous car. Apologies for referring to your product in this instance.

I don’t get too caught up in the time to charge, given when touring there is a good chance I/most drive many hours each day. To date on a 10 day and a 16 day trip I haven’t seen my aux below 12.2 and in the days I’m parked up or travel a shortish distance my solar get me to float each day. I’m increasing power usage therefore this thread is handy.

I did say costs aside in a hope to discuss setups/technology.

For me I’m struggling to find room for a second AGM as I choose not to use an isolator that uses starter capacity and/or fit a second battery under the passenger seat therefore my next option for increasing capacity with the same real estate is lithium..

Thanks for answering my question about two lithium’s in separate spots that there would a need for two DC-DC’s. Not that it’s applicable in my setup but if it did I’d first try parallel before a second DC-DC.

[drivesafe]

My apologies W&KO, I see you were talking about the OP's setup, not yours.

While it does not apply to your setup, but you can not use one DC/DC device to charge two batteries in separate location. Lithium or otherwise.

Doing so will either cause the closest to be continually over charged, or the furthest to be continually undercharged.

Undercharging a lithium is not a major problem but the slightest overcharge situation can be a problem, particularly with a lithium fitted with a poor quality BMS.

[drivesafe]

Hi again folks, and there is a need to cover both the potential use and advantages of converting to a lithium battery based DBS, and if there is actually a REAL benefit for converting.


Since I started selling Lithium batteries I have had quite a few enquiries from existing customers, about “upgrading” to a lithium setup.


In most cases, once the benefits and drawbacks were explained, the majority of those enquiring decided what they already had, was better, for their needs, than what a lithium “upgrade” would give them.


Because of the grossly misleading advertising used to sell many of the different brands of lithium batteries, most people do not fully understand the implications, pros and cons, of changing to a lithium battery setup.


To this end, over the next few days, time permitting, I will add a section on this subject, to the On-Line auto electrical info thread in the VERANDAH section.


As soon as I post up the info, I will post up a link here.