Vehicle towing capacities

[BrianElloy]

Gday groovers... sitting at the airport at the moment (ie no access to my owners manual) .

Can someone please advise on D4 towing specs eg GVM, GCM etc?

[kelvo]

Taken from the MY15 sales book.

[DiscoJeffster]

Nooooo. Not this topic. It always ends in war!

[Tombie]

Sometimes it’s like swings and roundabouts in here [emoji41]

[Narangga]

Sometimes it’s like swings and roundabouts in here [emoji41]

Gee you are older than I thought. Back in my day we had advanced to sideshows and merry-go-rounds :whistling:

[wardy1]

And I thought it was SWINGS and MERRY GO ROUNDS [emoji23][emoji23]

[DieselLSE]

So, the question remains: will a D4 be over GVM if it is towing a swing or a roundabout?

[PerthDisco]

Check the Plimsoll Line before each voyage.

[Narangga]

So, the question remains: will a D4 be over GVM if it is towing a swing or a roundabout?

Check with Brian - he's probably still at the airport trying to work it out...

[DiscoMick]

Depends on the towball down force? [emoji6]

[Zcoota]

Nooooo. Not this topic. It always ends in war!
[bigrolf][bigrolf] Was just thinking that....[bigrolf]

[DiscoMick]

Does the swing or roundabout weigh more than 688kg? (D4 payload).

[Narangga]

Does the swing or roundabout weigh more than 688kg?

I think the swing is roundabout that. [smilebigeye]

[PerthDisco]

Depends on the towball down force? [emoji6]

No it’s more about if travelling on sand or bitumen

[scarry]

If this thread keeps going around in circles with swings and roundabouts,maybe we can call it The 'Wont be retro thread No.2'[thumbsupbig]

[IndusD4]

Nooooo. Not this topic. It always ends in war!

...burnt my fingers last time, I'll stay well out of it this time...

Ron

[DiscoJeffster]

...burnt my fingers last time, I'll stay well out of it this time...

Ron

I just load up and tow, blindly ignorant but yet somehow cognisant of right versus wrong. Common sense is a factor. In WA, the empirical is less of an issue as they don’t have road side weigh bridges etc.

[DiscoMick]

It can have insurance consequences if a vehicle is overloaded and then crashed as the insurer may refuse to pay out. I reckon there would be a lot of Toyota owners running around blissfully unaware their overloaded vehicles are illegal. That would be particularly true of Landcruiser owners, I reckon, who have swallowed the 'unbreakable' propaganda.

[DiscoMick]

This is a good summary, I think.

https://unsealed4x4.com.au/payload-gvm-need-know/

[DiscoJeffster]

It can have insurance consequences if a vehicle is overloaded and then crashed as the insurer may refuse to pay out. I reckon there would be a lot of Toyota owners running around blissfully unaware their overloaded vehicles are illegal. That would be particularly true of Landcruiser owners, I reckon, who have swallowed the 'unbreakable' propaganda.

The likelihood of an insurer not paying out is extremely remote. That would be the least of my concerns in the scheme of things

[W&KO]

The likelihood of an insurer not paying out is extremely remote. That would be the least of my concerns in the scheme of things

Yes you’d have to be unlucky as first they have to recover the van and all it’s contents and weight it..but there is the case the NSW ATM.

I was chatting to a QLD Transport Compliance Officer yesterday about overweight vans and 4WD. He said he will never see roadside checks across the board as they simply don’t have the resources or budget.

He mentioned they did one last year at burpengary as more of an educational exercise, the thought was each can they weighed and checked over that van owner would than tell other about the experience and learning, he mentioned these days will be few and far between due to budget and resources. He mentioned they did pull one combination off the road as it was excessively exceeding limits in both vehicle and van, but let the other that breeched by smaller margins go.

I was worried when I was told to take our trailers to QLD Transport. Thinking they might weigh them I put our over the weight bridge, one weighted 2060 (2000ATM) and 280 on the ball, second time over the bridge we were 1940kg. To my surprise they didn’t have scales anyways, a quick measure, an exchange of plates and we were in our way. Although the compliance officer wasn’t part of the rego side he was happy to chat and was surprised I checked weights before arriving.

He did defect a Ute that was in for its annual just before we chatted....it was rather comical watching the owner drive over the pits.

[Markus1]

My gut feeling is that it's unlikely unless your half a tonne over. Blokes running around with crazy wheel offsets doesn't much seem to phase the insurers. Not to mention the number of cars running around with ridiculous tints that seem to pass inspection again and again. My understanding is that they have to prove that the illegality caused the accident. I doubt it's worth the while of the insurer to go through that from a property point of view.

But in terms of 3rd party personal I'm not so sure. These things go to court and the lawyers might try anything. Definetly It'd increase your chances of being found at fault and losing your licence.

Personally I'd be sticking to the limit because the law is on your side when you obey it.

[Tombie]

The likelihood of an insurer not paying out is extremely remote. That would be the least of my concerns in the scheme of things

It’s becoming less remote as costs keep climbing.

[DiscoMick]

If there is a crash and the wrecked vehicle is inspected and is clearly overweight by a significant margin then don't be surprised if the assessor decides to impress the insurer by giving it an excuse to reject the claim and save the company some money, particularly if someone is injured or killed. It happens.

[Tombie]

I hope it becomes common place to test them.
There are 2 incidents I know were rejected for overloading around Coober Pedy whilst I was up that way.

In both cases they lost control and totalled the combinations. They were recovered along with all belongings and taken to the Pede where they were weighed. Insurance was voided as well as charges laid.

These individuals cost *me* money. I hate paying such high premiums because of incompetent or arrogant individuals.

[Zcoota]

I've never been struck by lightning nor have I won Tattslotto but I'm not taking any chances. I have witnessed a caravan flip in the last couple of weeks, had a trailer tyre delaminate whilst towing another car, also had a colleague involved in a crash where someone was seriously injured with his vehicle impounded by the police as part of their investigation...for sure the insurance company will walk away if something's not right. It happens all the time.

As to people not getting checked, a few years ago a group of guys towing rally cars on trailers to an event were all pulled over as they crossed the border from Vic into NSW and fined because of the subtle legal differences in both states. Personally its just not worth the risk. I recently had to move a 110 County about 300km, I basically sucked it up and budgeted for a tow truck, sure I could have put it on a trailer and towed it with my other 110 but it isn't worth it.

[DiscoMick]

I just worked out that when we hook up the camper trailer to our Defender and head off, despite being loaded with every thing we need, we still have a margin of about 500kg under the Defender's payload, so I sleep well knowing that.
Incidentally, I read something which pointed out that, even when a vehicle's payload is increased through a GVM upgrade, the GCM (Gross Combined Mass) is unchanged. This means that, if someone was on their vehicle's payload limit before the GVM upgrade, every kilo extra they carry in the upgraded vehicle has to be removed from the caravan, or they will be over their GCM and still be overloaded and illegal.
Interesting.

[Tombie]

In some states that’s correct. In others the Train weight can be increased.

[PerthDisco]

This got ugly quickly. Not enough hitch weight? Would have Disco gizmos saved it?

https://twitter.com/7newssydney/status/1158272320537952256's=21

[BradC]

This got ugly quickly. Not enough hitch weight? Would have Disco gizmos saved it?

https://twitter.com/7newssydney/status/1158272320537952256's=21

I've seen a few go close to that but I've never seen one go over. Generally the cause is a loose nut behind the wheel.

[Tombie]

Stability has several factors.

A narrow Prado doesn’t meet many of them, add a long van like that and moments would/could/did be quite scary.

I’ve never had a sway moment in the D4 regardless of what’s been on the back.

[gavinwibrow]

Stability has several factors.

A narrow Prado doesn’t meet many of them, add a long van like that and moments would/could/did be quite scary.

I’ve never had a sway moment in the D4 regardless of what’s been on the back.

I've had a few "sway" moments this trip, despite having been a careful professional driver for a fair proportion of my working life.
The D4 recovers reasonably well, but even with wide (285 60) 697 tyres and reasonably well, but not over loaded in either car or van, the heavy van can get into a sway in some of the weird camber situations so far only on the Stuart Highway between Alice and Cooper Pedy (both ways).
I discounted the minimal sways on gravel as the rare few that have occurred have reminded me to slow down even more on an otherwise excellent surface between WA and Uluru. At best I travelled at 80 - 85 kmph with all tyres down around 25 psi. Am relearning to use backside clenching muscles I forgot I had.

[veebs]

Looks like a V60 Pajero to me, towing a Kingdom Kensington EVO Caravan

A quick google reveals a towing capacity of 2,500kg for the car, and an ATM of 2,660kg in the trailer.

Not a great solution I would suggest.

[Homestar]

I've seen a few go close to that but I've never seen one go over. Generally the cause is a loose nut behind the wheel.

Yeah, overtaking with a setup like that shows there wasn’t much going on between their ears. Probably had no idea of what could go wrong and drove it with the van on the same way they drove it on its own.

[Markus1]

A wiser man would have hit the trailer brake. Nothing wrong with a Paj though. Probably poor weight distribution plus a strong element of not knowing how to drive and panicking. Scary stuff who out there driving around. Hard to gauge the speed involved.

[Tombie]

Not always that simple to just “hit the van brakes”.

Once that yaw moment starts it can go beyond recovery very quickly.

A lot of stability comes down to where the weight is in the van. It may be under weight = good, but if the mass is at either end of the van and not near the axles you are asking for a world of hurt.

More likely just the usual combination of “we want this van” coupled with a non-suitable / matched vehicle.

Just because a vehicle can handle the weight etc doesn’t make every pairing suitable.

Glad they are ok.

[Milton477]

I just wonder if the rig had warned him earlier that it was unstable & he ignored the signs.

[Tombie]

I just wonder if the rig had warned him earlier that it was unstable & he ignored the signs.

Go on the Caravaners forum - that’s an eye opener.

They all insist on WDHs, belittle LR owners for not using them, and many there think if the combo is safe at 80 but not 100 then it’s just safe to haul along at 80 everywhere.

When I indicated that means the combination is inherently unstable and unsafe I was met with much abuse.

[DiscoMick]

Certainly do seem to be a lot of people out their whose rigs are way over the GCM and think it's okay to speed and generally behave like racing drivers.

[BradC]

When I indicated that means the combination is inherently unstable and unsafe I was met with much abuse.

Forums are like that though. People tend to be far more reasonable with their feet up around a camp fire. It's like the old booze thing, but worse "instant arsehole, just add keyboard".

But yeah, there is a significant lack of understanding of the basics out there and a complete reticence to learn. About 15 years ago, a good friend of mine had her mother die and father completely incapacitated in a van-rollover when he was driving, so the accident and surrounding forensics is something that is with me every time I plug the tow bar in.

Even though he'd been towing for years with the same rig, he essentially had no idea how to tow a van, had it loaded wrong and did pretty much everything wrong rushing to the scene of the accident.

At Christmas on the way to Cervantes I was passed by an Audi Q7 towing a long 80's style van. As he overtook me he wound up a sway that oscillated well in excess of 10 times across both lanes. Out of morbid curiosity I actually sped up a bit to keep pace to see it happen several more times, one of which was so bad I dropped right back expecting a total loss. Some people just have no idea. But then as my father has said repeatedly over the last 40 years, "some people just shouldn't own boats". So it's not just vans.

[Homestar]

Go on the Caravaners forum - that’s an eye opener.

They all insist on WDHs, belittle LR owners for not using them, and many there think if the combo is safe at 80 but not 100 then it’s just safe to haul along at 80 everywhere.

When I indicated that means the combination is inherently unstable and unsafe I was met with much abuse.

Yeah, that place is a hoot. Hive mentality at its best and I’m sure most that are on it are just there for the confirmation bias they get from the place to make them feel better about their setups.

[veebs]

Did a quick google - holy ****. Won’t be signing up there!
Well done for defending the marque Tombie.

Ironically the guy with ‘don’t argue with idiots...’ in his signature seems one of the furthest from reality!

[scarry]

Certainly do seem to be a lot of people out their whose rigs are way over the GCM and think it's okay to speed and generally behave like racing drivers.

And there are heaps of others that sit on around 85km/hr,in a 100km/hr zone,hold everybody up,just to save fuel.

[cripesamighty]

Just had a stickybeak on the Caravaners forum as I haven't been on there since looking for some info to help a friend choose a caravan a year ago. Not much has changed!
I went through the "WDH with air suspension - Please explain" thread, and was gobsmacked. It looked like you were arguing with 'WDH religious zealots' Tombie, so no wonder they were unable to comprehend what you were talking about. It was plainly obvious that none of the biggest Land Rover detractors on that thread had ever towed with an air-suspended Land Rover product. It would be interesting to see if their viewpoint changed if they were given the opportunity. Each to their own I guess. I had a similar experience trying to explain what the Terrain Response System can do to a colleague, and then took them offroading for a demo. That lovely little package tends to blow peoples minds!

[cripesamighty]

I have attached a photo of my mates D4 with his new caravan. Back in the day, he used to have a Series 1 Land Rover ute with a V8 he dropped into it to tow his race car. When the Series 1 went, he put the V8 into a Series 2 to do the same. He isn't racing anymore, but has had quite a few performance cars since then.

Not last Xmas but the Xmas before he mentioned his Subaru was having a tough time on the hills towing his camper trailer on his holidays. He was thinking of what to upgrade to, so I offered him my D3 to try out for a fortnight for his next trip. When he came back he and his wife went looking at all sorts of different tow tugs (he wasn't set on any brand) and eventually settled on a newish 8 speed D4 SDV6 as he thought it killed the competition. Both he and his wife love it, and they have had absolutely no problems towing with it over the last 18 months (both the camper and caravan). I think he has converted a few grey nomads on his travels to the benefits of air suspension and a correctly sorted caravan, weight-wise!