Victoria, Net "importer" of Electricity?

[Pickles2]

I heard on the news this morning that Victoria was now unable to generate enough electricity on its own to supply its on requirements, now being a "net importer", its requirements being supplied by S,A., Tas, & N.S.W....this deficiency being responsible for several outages last year. It was also stated that the situation is not likely to improve.
There are several on this forum who have exhibited a very substantial knowledgeable interest in this subject, based on FACT, not myth & hearsay. I have no such knowledge, so I was wondering what factual info such a person might reveal on this subject relative to Victoria.
Pickles.

[ramblingboy42]

It doesn't really matter anymore where power is sourced.

We have a national grid.

No one state needs to provide for themselves anymore , although local govt might lead you to believe this.

All power generated across Australia is fed into the grid network in some way or another and squabbles ensue between providers buying and selling on price.

Some of the small single turbine co-gen units dotted around the country dont run for weeks until demand and electricity price calls for it, even though they are staffed
and standing by.

So in reality you don't know whether you are using coal, wind, sun or hydro power or where it comes from.

You CAN see who is producing power to the grid and in what amounts.....some here could furnish the source of that info but I find it a little boring.

Gone are the days where local councils produced power for their ratepayers at cost, not at a profit to the provider , although quite a few small municipalities are looking to do just that again. Not before time, take the profits away from the greedy 'providers'.

[Bigbjorn]

[QUOTE=ramblingboy42;2927853

Gone are the days where local councils produced power for their ratepayers at cost, not at a profit to the provider , although quite a few small municipalities are looking to do just that again. Not before time, take the profits away from the greedy 'providers'.[/QUOTE]

I am old enough to remember when outback villages and small towns had a generating plant commonly owned by the Shire Council. The "grid" didn't exist and most of these plants only supplied power to the small town and those close by. Farms and pastoral stations were on their own if they were much more than a mile or three out of town. I remember my father telling me about one Western Queensland small town that had a private syndicate that built a generator. Apparently to have power connected one had to join the syndicate by being accepted as a member like joining a gentleman's club and then buying shares in the syndicate. I wonder if one's old school tie and lodge had any bearing on acceptance.

[DiscoMick]

Grafton used to have a hydro power station.

Electricity is an East Coast grid. WA is separate. Generators bid to sell power to ANEMO, the market operator.
Mostly, solar and wind are the cheapest bids. Hydro is also cheap. Coal and gas fill the gaps.
This trend is increasing as worn out coal stations shut down. No-one will finance or insure new coal generation stations, so they won't be built.
Renewables are the future, combined with battery banks with gas as a backup. Victoria lost Hazelwood and it won't be replaced with another coal station.
The UK is on track to hit 100% net zero emissions by 2050. We will be lucky to hit 30% unless government policies change.
Businesses and other large consumers are signing contracts which fund the construction of new solar-wind-battery power generation farms, which then bid to supply into the grid.
Domestic consumers are covering their roofs with solar to run their houses during the day and reduce their need to draw on the grid at night. For example, our son has just installed 6.5Kw of panels which are generating twice as much power as their house needs in a 24 hour period. Works well.
Electricity generation used to be centralised, but now technology means it can be decentralised, which is a big improvement. Adding batteries will reinforce the trend towards being self-sufficient. This is great progress.

[Saitch]

Grafton used to have a hydro power station.

Electricity is an East Coast grid. WA is separate. Generators bid to sell power to ANEMO, the market operator.
Mostly, solar and wind are the cheapest bids. Hydro is also cheap. Coal and gas fill the gaps.
This trend is increasing as worn out coal stations shut down. No-one will finance or insure new coal generation stations, so they won't be built.
Renewables are the future, combined with battery banks with gas as a backup. Victoria lost Hazelwood and it won't be replaced with another coal station.
The UK is on track to hit 100% net zero emissions by 2050. We will be lucky to hit 30% unless government policies change.
Businesses and other large consumers are signing contracts which fund the construction of new solar-wind-battery power generation farms, which then bid to supply into the grid.
Domestic consumers are covering their roofs with solar to run their houses during the day and reduce their need to draw on the grid at night. For example, our son has just installed 6.5Kw of panels which are generating twice as much power as their house needs in a 24 hour period. Works well.
Electricity generation used to be centralised, but now technology means it can be decentralised, which is a big improvement. Adding batteries will reinforce the trend towards being self-sufficient. This is great progress.

Well and good, Mike but not relevant to the OP, unless I'm missing something?

[PhilipA]

Er Mick are you considering the UK use of imported wood chips from the USA as renewable?
I understand 40% of UK power is supplied by DRAX from imported wood chips.
what a lot of BS.

regards PhilipA

[350RRC]

I heard on the news this morning that Victoria was now unable to generate enough electricity on its own to supply its on requirements, now being a "net importer", its requirements being supplied by S,A., Tas, & N.S.W....this deficiency being responsible for several outages last year. It was also stated that the situation is not likely to improve.
There are several on this forum who have exhibited a very substantial knowledgeable interest in this subject, based on FACT, not myth & hearsay. I have no such knowledge, so I was wondering what factual info such a person might reveal on this subject relative to Victoria.
Pickles.

Victoria is a nett importer of avocados but no one worries about that.

In this privatised world, where all the dogs have more fleas than ever, the basic premise of each state doing it's generation is totally out the window.

AFAIK there was only one major outage event in Vic in the last 12 months and that was due to the old ' individual state' grid system being incapable of getting excess QLD generation capacity to Vic at the time. I was watching it live when the lights went out where I am.

Anyone who is interested can too.............

Live Supply & Demand Widget, sponsored by RenewEconomy | (http://www.nem-watch.info/widgets/reneweconomy/)

I'm not really into the politics of all that happens, but the data presented on that page, that updates every 5 mins in line with the national market, is a real eye opener when you get to understand what is being presented.

HTH, DL

[DiscoMick]

That's a very useful widget. Thanks.
It certainly shows Qld is way out in front in total renewables and Tasmania in hydro (as expected). Also still shows a lot of coal, but falling - SA has replaced coal with gas, halving emissions. SA has lots of gas and not much coal, of course. When Liddell shuts down in 2 years that will have a similar effect to when Hazelwood closed, I assume. Snowy Hydro 2 should boost NSW and Victoria, once the transmission networks are upgraded. Every building with solar reduces the need for more centralised generation plants.
As for the original post, the market operates in five interconnected zones, with WA standing alone. So no eastern state is self-sufficient. Qld is often powering the southern states to some extent. SA often fills the gap in Victoria. Interconnection makes the whole East Coast grid more stable.
It's not how the power is generated that matters, but if there is enough supply. It's all good.

[DiscoMick]

Er Mick are you considering the UK use of imported wood chips from the USA as renewable?
I understand 40% of UK power is supplied by DRAX from imported wood chips.
what a lot of BS.

regards PhilipA
Interesting point you raise.
Here are the sources of UK electricity. No mention of imported wood chips. Might be included in a larger total.

Electricity generation | Energy UK (https://www.energy-uk.org.uk/our-work/generation/electricity-generation.html)

I did find this story which supports that some American wood chips are being shipped to the UK and EU to burn in biomass plants. Interesting that even shipping it over and burning it still produces less emissions than burning UK coal in the UK. Be better to keep it in the USA and increase renewables, I think. Wind already supplies twice as much power as coal in the UK so it can certainly be done.

British power stations are burning wood from US forests – to meet renewables targets (http://theconversation.com/british-power-stations-are-burning-wood-from-us-forests-to-meet-renewables-targets-54969)

Here is the announcement of the UK committing to net zero emissions by 2050.

Theresa May: UK to reach zero net emissions by 2050 (https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/zero-emissions-uk-aims-to-be-first-of-g7-with-ambitious-target-20190612-p51wwy.html)

[trout1105]

Interesting point you raise.
Here are the sources of UK electricity. No mention of imported wood chips. Might be included in the 3% of 'Other' fossil fuels?

Electricity generation | Energy UK (https://www.energy-uk.org.uk/our-work/generation/electricity-generation.html)

I did find this story which supports that some American wood chips are being shipped to the UK and EU to burn in biomass plants. Interesting that even shipping it over and burning it still produces less emissions than burning UK coal in the UK. Be better to keep it in the USA and increase renewables. Wind already supplies twice as much power as coal in the UK so it can certainly be done.

British power stations are burning wood from US forests – to meet renewables targets (http://theconversation.com/british-power-stations-are-burning-wood-from-us-forests-to-meet-renewables-targets-54969)

The UK doesn't have that much land available for use for solar/wind generation like Aus has and I doubt that they would be as dumb as we are and use good agricultural land for this.

[Arapiles]

The UK doesn't have that much land available for use for solar/wind generation like Aus has and I doubt that they would be as dumb as we are and use good agricultural land for this.

As far as I know wind turbines don't affect land use and even MW scale solar farms use little land in the greater scheme of things. Most of the new plants going in in Victoria are in the north, and that's not particularly productive land - and with the fall in average rainfall, heading to be even less so.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, also, many of their wind turbines are offshore in the ocean. I remember seeing some in Scotland. The ones on land don't affect farming anyway.

[4bee]

My word how things change.

I recall Victorians (not the circa 1900 ones with funny hats & frocks) btw [smilebigeye] sticking it up SA & being quite Cock O Hoop when we had a blackout a couple of years ago.


Since we have had the "Big Battery," & got other things organised as far as I can recall we have not had a problem & now Vic has.


Mick there is also a huge " Wind farm" in the sea off the Kentish Coast situated betwen North & South Forelands & the Goodwin Sands.

Just sayin'.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, if this thread was in Current Affairs I could say something political about that, but it isn't, so I won't.

[350RRC]

Well it was only one or two Sundays ago when the wholesale price in each of Qld, NSW, Vic, Tas and SA hit $0 at the same time for 5 mins.

Combined renewables were producing 44% of demand at the time.

This was reported in the Oz. (albeit in a very small article, down the bottom of a LH page)

This event is only relevant because it has never happened before, I certainly don't see it as a cause for celebration because there is a hell of a lot to do before it even gets close to being a cheap reliable situation.

It was for 5 minutes when demand was at it's lowest and the wind was blowing, etc.

The point I'm trying to make is that both sides of 'the divide' on the future of energy provision should not indulge in either wishful thinking or telling outright lies and take note of real info.

DL

[Arapiles]

Since we have had the "Big Battery," & got other things organised as far as I can recall we have not had a problem & now Vic has

What problem does Victoria have? Have there been blackouts that I didn't notice?

The original question - is Victoria a net importer of electricity hasn't been answered. The answer is NO:

Last summer's heatwave made electricity price forecasts look foolish. Will it happen again? | RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/last-summers-heatwave-made-electricity-price-forecasts-look-foolish-will-it-happen-again-57974/)

In the quarter ended March 2019 Victoria was a net EXPORTER of electricity by about 300 MW. And on top of that, there's about 800 MW of renewables coming on line by 1 January 2020, including Murra Warra.

[trout1105]

As far as I know wind turbines don't affect land use and even MW scale solar farms use little land in the greater scheme of things. Most of the new plants going in in Victoria are in the north, and that's not particularly productive land - and with the fall in average rainfall, heading to be even less so.

We have a wind farm here outside Geraldton and I have also been to the wind farm outside Jurian Bay and at both of them only farming being done was livestock production, It wouldn't be to clever to drive a header or airseeder under those blades so cropping isn't an option.
Solar arrays take up quite a lot of land and regardless of how productive that land is it is rendered unusable and with the way our populations are exploding we will need every scrap of arible land to feed everyone.
I am pretty sure that WA is self sufficient for power and we don't need to import any[thumbsupbig]

[Eevo]

Well it was only one or two Sundays ago when the wholesale price in each of Qld, NSW, Vic, Tas and SA hit $0 at the same time for 5 mins.

Combined renewables were producing 44% of demand at the time.

This was reported in the Oz. (albeit in a very small article, down the bottom of a LH page)

This event is only relevant because it has never happened before, I certainly don't see it as a cause for celebration because there is a hell of a lot to do before it even gets close to being a cheap reliable situation.

It was for 5 minutes when demand was at it's lowest and the wind was blowing, etc.

The point I'm trying to make is that both sides of 'the divide' on the future of energy provision should not indulge in either wishful thinking or telling outright lies and take note of real info.

DL




$0 wholesale price has happeend many times before and not hard to achieve when far from peak demand.
i think a more relevant measure is to look at peak demand. at peak demand, vic is an exporter of power. when the battery runs out and the wind stops blowing, who's powering the country? vic is.

[ramblingboy42]

The UK doesn't have that much land available for use for solar/wind generation like Aus has and I doubt that they would be as dumb as we are and use good agricultural land for this.

I don't know where that's happening Trout , most of our good ag land has houses built on it!

[DiscoMick]

Agriculture has 75% of our landmass, I read. Much of that agriculture is low intensive grazing on degraded land. We'd be better off to remove the cattle from the most damaged land, install solar and wind farms, and let the land recover.

[scarry]

Agriculture has 75% of our landmass, I read. Much of that agriculture is low intensive grazing on degraded land. We'd be better off to remove the cattle from the most damaged land, install solar and wind farms, and let the land recover.

Solar wouldn't give it much chance to recover as the land would always be in the shade, i presume.

There are also quite a few articles about birds,particularly eagles, getting killed on wind farms.

Even Bob Brown is against the building of a new wind farm in Tassie for this reason.

And no,i am not trying to bring politics into this,its just facts.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, I read that about Bob Brown.
Eagles would have to be asleep to run into a wind turbine - they don't turn that fast.

[bblaze]

Yes, I read that about Bob Brown.
Eagles would have to be asleep to run into a wind turbine - they don't turn that fast.

I believe they reach speeds of 130kmh at the tips
cheers
blaze

[Arapiles]

[QUOTE=trout1105;2928184
Solar arrays take up quite a lot of land and regardless of how productive that land is it is rendered unusable and with the way our populations are exploding we will need every scrap of arible land to feed everyone.[/QUOTE]

All the solar farms in Australia wouldn't occupy even a fraction of the space taken up by hobby farms around just Melbourne. And that is productive land with good rainfall and close to our biggest population centre. The solar farms being built in the Mallee are not on productive land.

[Arapiles]

Solar wouldn't give it much chance to recover as the land would always be in the shade, i presume.

There are also quite a few articles about birds,particularly eagles, getting killed on wind farms.

Even Bob Brown is against the building of a new wind farm in Tassie for this reason.

And no,i am not trying to bring politics into this,its just facts.


Even if the land was in the shade all the time, that's not really an issue - unless you think that soil near trees that's shaded is always degraded?

Re eagles, yes they can get killed by wind farms - the Ballan wind farm apparently has recorded three wedgetail eagle deaths - but the biggest problem for wedgetails isn't wind farms, its sheep farmers with poison:

Farm worker who poisoned 406 wedge-tailed eagles in east Gippsland jailed and fined - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-24/man-poisoned-wedge-tailed-eagles-in-gippsland-jailed/10298426)

I find it staggering that they managed to kill 406 eagles over two years, I wouldn't've thought that there was that population density anywhere in the State.

[scarry]

Even if the land was in the shade all the time, that's not really an issue - unless you think that soil near trees that's shaded is always degraded?

Re eagles, yes they can get killed by wind farms - the Ballan wind farm apparently has recorded three wedgetail eagle deaths - but the biggest problem for wedgetails isn't wind farms, its sheep farmers with poison:

Farm worker who poisoned 406 wedge-tailed eagles in east Gippsland jailed and fined - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-24/man-poisoned-wedge-tailed-eagles-in-gippsland-jailed/10298426)

I find it staggering that they managed to kill 406 eagles over two years, I wouldn't've thought that there was that population density anywhere in the State.

Wouldn't the degraded land need vegetation to grow on it to improve it?
If so being under solar panels wouldn't be ideal,i would think.

That incident with that number of Wedgetails would be a one off.
It is beyond me how anyone could do something like that.

Sure some would be killed by 1080,as are other raptors.
Many are also killed feeding on road kill.

[PerthDisco]

We have a wind farm here outside Geraldton and I have also been to the wind farm outside Jurian Bay and at both of them only farming being done was livestock production, It wouldn't be to clever to drive a header or airseeder under those blades so cropping isn't an option.
Solar arrays take up quite a lot of land and regardless of how productive that land is it is rendered unusable and with the way our populations are exploding we will need every scrap of arible land to feed everyone.
I am pretty sure that WA is self sufficient for power and we don't need to import any[thumbsupbig]

It’s called gas reservation, an amazing thing whereby the state government mandated a % of gas produced in WA was kept here. Fancy that for a good idea!! Pipes deliver it south.

We have the affordable fuel and stability of prices for industry, many mines and spinning turbines at peak demand times while the coal generation is drowned out by the daytime rooftop solar and wind and solar farms.

[PerthDisco]

Even if the land was in the shade all the time, that's not really an issue - unless you think that soil near trees that's shaded is always degraded?

Re eagles, yes they can get killed by wind farms - the Ballan wind farm apparently has recorded three wedgetail eagle deaths - but the biggest problem for wedgetails isn't wind farms, its sheep farmers with poison:

Farm worker who poisoned 406 wedge-tailed eagles in east Gippsland jailed and fined - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-24/man-poisoned-wedge-tailed-eagles-in-gippsland-jailed/10298426)

I find it staggering that they managed to kill 406 eagles over two years, I wouldn't've thought that there was that population density anywhere in the State.

A great lot also killed on the nullabour feasting on a roo carcass to get swiped by a passing car/truck as they flee. Never seemed to bother anyone for last 50 years.

[DiscoMick]

Grass can still grow under solar arrays. The soil needs a rest.

[DiscoMick]

It’s called gas reservation, an amazing thing whereby the state government mandated a % of gas produced in WA was kept here. Fancy that for a good idea!! Pipes deliver it south.

We have the affordable fuel and stability of prices for industry, many mines and spinning turbines at peak demand times while the coal generation is drowned out by the daytime rooftop solar and wind and solar farms.Qld also has gas reservation. Smart states don't give away all their assets.

[Arapiles]

Wouldn't the degraded land need vegetation to grow on it to improve it?
If so being under solar panels wouldn't be ideal,i would think.

Apparently the reverse in fact:

Energy and food together: Under solar panels, crops thrive | Public Radio International (https://www.pri.org/stories/2018-06-08/energy-and-food-together-under-solar-panels-crops-thrive)

"Universities in the United States, Germany and elsewhere are testing the concept of “dual-use farming,” (http://www.anthropocenemagazine.org/2017/12/doubling-up-crops-with-solar-farms-could-increase-land-use-efficiency-by-as-much-as-60/) as some advocates call it, where crops grow below canopies of solar panels. They are finding they grow just fine — and, in some cases, better than (http://www.newsweek.com/smart-greenhouses-solar-power-crops-food-production-702589) crops in full sun."

NB, solar panels aren't weed cloth ...


That incident with that number of Wedgetails would be a one off.


Let's hope so.


It is beyond me how anyone could do something like that.

Agreed ... it was absolutely appalling.

[DiscoMick]

If it's true that cats kill a million birds a day in Australia, while wind turbines only kill a couple of birds a year, then let's focus on feral cats, who are the real problem.

Do windfarms kill birds? How Australia can limit the impact on threatened species

Do windfarms kill birds? How Australia can limit the impact on threatened species | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/04/do-windfarms-kill-birds-how-australia-can-limit-the-impact-on-threatened-species?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[scarry]

Apparently the reverse in fact:

Energy and food together: Under solar panels, crops thrive | Public Radio International (https://www.pri.org/stories/2018-06-08/energy-and-food-together-under-solar-panels-crops-thrive)

"Universities in the United States, Germany and elsewhere are testing the concept of “dual-use farming,” (http://www.anthropocenemagazine.org/2017/12/doubling-up-crops-with-solar-farms-could-increase-land-use-efficiency-by-as-much-as-60/) as some advocates call it, where crops grow below canopies of solar panels. They are finding they grow just fine — and, in some cases, better than (http://www.newsweek.com/smart-greenhouses-solar-power-crops-food-production-702589) crops in full sun."



Lots of variables there.....

Degraded soil could give a completely different outcome

[DiscoMick]

They just need to plant native crops instead of European species, such as the plus 40 varieties of wheat the Aborigines were farming. Also, get rid of hard hoofed animals so the soil can aerate.

Sent from my A1601 using AULRO mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78345)

[DeeJay]

I just skipped thru from page 1 to give a first hand experience reply. Approx 12 years ago I was employed as an LPG area manager and oversaw a gas tank installation at a Nat gas terminal based just inshore in the Otways - near Port Campbell. To cut a long story down, that terminal fed its gas into the grid, its end customer being the Electricity generator for most of Adelaides requirements. I guess a similar generator could be commissioned in Vic - if warranted.
David

[Arapiles]

I heard on the news this morning that Victoria was now unable to generate enough electricity on its own to supply its on requirements, now being a "net importer", its requirements being supplied by S,A., Tas, & N.S.W....this deficiency being responsible for several outages last year. It was also stated that the situation is not likely to improve.
There are several on this forum who have exhibited a very substantial knowledgeable interest in this subject, based on FACT, not myth & hearsay. I have no such knowledge, so I was wondering what factual info such a person might reveal on this subject relative to Victoria.
Pickles.

Out of curiosity, what station did you hear that news on?

[AndyG]

If it's true that cats kill a million birds a day in Australia, while wind turbines only kill a couple of birds a year, then let's focus on feral cats, who are the real problem.

Do windfarms kill birds? How Australia can limit the impact on threatened species

Do windfarms kill birds? How Australia can limit the impact on threatened species | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/04/do-windfarms-kill-birds-how-australia-can-limit-the-impact-on-threatened-species?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

No problem eliminating all cats from Australia , a particularly nasty species

Whatever happened to the cat thread, as opposed to the dog thread LOL

[trout1105]

No problem eliminating all cats from Australia , a particularly nasty species

Whatever happened to the cat thread, as opposed to the dog thread LOL

I quite like cats But I will shoot every feral cat I see on the property, Destructive little bastards.

[Pickles2]

Out of curiosity, what station did you hear that news on?
I have just noticed your question, but to be honest I can't remember, I'm not particular to any particular channel, so could've been any of the commercial stations or Sky News.
Pickles.