Engine rebuild, torqued down crankshaft won’t move

[Kimsl70]

G’day all.

I’ve started rebuilding my engine. It’s a 2.25 3 MB Petrol. I’ve replaced the big end bearings and toques down the crankshaft to 85 lb/ ft. I assumed the crankshaft should still rotate but it will not budge. I’ve not done this before hence there is probably a really basic error I’ve made. I just can’t see it. I used loads of oil when seating the bearings. It rotated fine when the bearing caps were sitting on it finger tight. I’ve checked the torque wrench setting three times. Nothing seems to be snagging it. 🤷🏼*♂️🤷🏼*♂️🤷🏼*♂️.

Any help would be appreciated

Cheers.

[101RRS]

Did you use Plastiguage to measure journal to bearing clearance? It needs to be done.

Issues will be wrong bearings for the diameter of journals, slightly bend crankshaft or warped block (maybe the block needs line boring)

Garry

[Kimsl70]

Cheers Garry. You may be right. I got the bearing from Turner in the UK. When i had the block hot tanked they linished the crankshaft so there maybe something in there that’s not right.

[Kimsl70]

I’ll reverse today’s work tomorrow and check the clearances. Thanks for the reply.

[101RRS]

How did you determine what bearings you needed. Normally the crank is machined to suit the available bearings - so if there is a little wear, it will be machined down to suit the next thicker bearings and will be tagged with the required size. Eg when I did my V8 all journals were fine but one had a little wear so all journals were machined 10 thou to suit 10thou oversize bearings.

I used plastigauge to check clearances first (I did this 20 years ago as well with my 2.25 as well) and was all ok. Even so when the bearing caps were all torqued up the crank was a little tight but slowly loosened up.

Sucking eggs time - reclean, check bearing tabs in the slots, correct sequence of cap bolts and of course correct torque. Oh - plenty of engine assembly lube.

Garry

[Blknight.aus]

do your nip and crush checks...

also check the bearings are seated appropriately, if you put them in incorrectly so the tang press is not in its recess youve not only got the crank stuck but you've damaged the bearing.

did you get the endfloat setup before you did up the bearing caps?

[Kimsl70]

do your nip and crush checks...

also check the bearings are seated appropriately, if you put them in incorrectly so the tang press is not in its recess youve not only got the crank stuck but you've damaged the bearing.

did you get the endfloat setup before you did up the bearing caps?

Thanks mate. I did the end float and it seemed ok. But I’m going to reverse everything tomorrow and step through it again. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Thank you.

[Gippslander]

As stated before undo all bearings one at a time check for rotation after disassembly of each bearing starting with Conrad bearings. If the Conrad bearings are not at fault and the crank won’t spin push rods up to the top of each bore after removing caps. Then start on the main bearings until the crank will rotate. Inspect each bearing to see if it is seated in the cap and rod, and each main bearing ro ensure it is correctly seated. Bearings by design are manufactured to have a crush I.e. when assembled the cap and the rod or the cylinder block will have a small gap between the mating surfaces this gap is called crush. When you assemble a bearing set first ensure the small tang/ piece sticking out on one end of the bearing is fitted to the cap/ block or rod that has a piece machined to accept the tang. If you don’t and you attempt to assemble the components the bearing will clamp against the crank and cause lockup.
When disassembling motor bearings before you order new components you should check the old components for a manufacturing number and a size if the crank was machined previously. The bearings should have the size listed on the back of the bearing 0.010” for example is ten thousands of an inch under standard size or 0.030” is thirty thousand under size. So this can allow you to first measure the journal and compare it with original measurement in the workshop manual to confirm the current size and allow you to order the correct replacement parts. On this note if the journal is still in good condition but has some slight wear say 0.0005” - 0.001” thousands of an inch do not linish the crank to clean it up. In years past I worked for a major American engine manufacturer and they conducted a very detailed investigation into engine bearing wear and they found that a crank shaft which had some wear on journals when fitted with new bearings lasted longer than the same engine with linished journals. The reason was that the crank journal had what was termed a work hardened surface and was actually smoother than a linished one. They also found that linishing a crank deposited minute abrasive partials in the porous surface of the crank. Under a microscope it was observed that the molecules of the crank when initially ground actually cut some of the molecules in half leaving minute pockets on the surface of the crank which had sharp edges and grinding stone particles in them. This was noted to be the major cause of wear during breakin, after many hundreds of thousand of kilometres/ or running hours the surface is noted to be smoother albeit slightly smaller. This surface will not damage bearings to the extent a linished crank will.

I hope this helps in some way Gippy [biggrin]

[Bigbjorn]

Thanks mate. I did the end float and it seemed ok. But I’m going to reverse everything tomorrow and step through it again. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Thank you.

When engine building micrometers are your friends. Measure, measure, measure. Then measure again. You should not be engine building without a full set of outside, inside, depth micrometers, dial gauge, dial test indicator. Has the main bearing tunnel been checked for truth, roundness, dimension? If it is out of whack then your machine shop needs to line bore it. You should for preference, use semi-finished main bearing shells and line bore them to tolerance to suit the crankshaft.

[Kimsl70]

As stated before undo all bearings one at a time check for rotation after disassembly of each bearing starting with Conrad bearings. If the Conrad bearings are not at fault and the crank won’t spin push rods up to the top of each bore after removing caps. Then start on the main bearings until the crank will rotate. Inspect each bearing to see if it is seated in the cap and rod, and each main bearing ro ensure it is correctly seated. Bearings by design are manufactured to have a crush I.e. when assembled the cap and the rod or the cylinder block will have a small gap between the mating surfaces this gap is called crush. When you assemble a bearing set first ensure the small tang/ piece sticking out on one end of the bearing is fitted to the cap/ block or rod that has a piece machined to accept the tang. If you don’t and you attempt to assemble the components the bearing will clamp against the crank and cause lockup.
When disassembling motor bearings before you order new components you should check the old components for a manufacturing number and a size if the crank was machined previously. The bearings should have the size listed on the back of the bearing 0.010” for example is ten thousands of an inch under standard size or 0.030” is thirty thousand under size. So this can allow you to first measure the journal and compare it with original measurement in the workshop manual to confirm the current size and allow you to order the correct replacement parts. On this note if the journal is still in good condition but has some slight wear say 0.0005” - 0.001” thousands of an inch do not linish the crank to clean it up. In years past I worked for a major American engine manufacturer and they conducted a very detailed investigation into engine bearing wear and they found that a crank shaft which had some wear on journals when fitted with new bearings lasted longer than the same engine with linished journals. The reason was that the crank journal had what was termed a work hardened surface and was actually smoother than a linished one. They also found that linishing a crank deposited minute abrasive partials in the porous surface of the crank. Under a microscope it was observed that the molecules of the crank when initially ground actually cut some of the molecules in half leaving minute pockets on the surface of the crank which had sharp edges and grinding stone particles in them. This was noted to be the major cause of wear during breakin, after many hundreds of thousand of kilometres/ or running hours the surface is noted to be smoother albeit slightly smaller. This surface will not damage bearings to the extent a linished crank will.

I hope this helps in some way Gippy [biggrin]

Thank you for that detailed reply. I appreciate the time and effort. When I tore the motor down I look at the specs on the bearing and attempted to order like for like. Being 3 MB engine bearings are hard to come by. I contacted Turner today as the supplied bearing had the tang on the wrong side. They suggested grinding the tab down. I think I’m going to attempt to get some new bearings and start from scratch.

Thank you again. I really do appreciate the help.

[Kimsl70]

When engine building micrometers are your friends. Measure, measure, measure. Then measure again. You should not be engine building without a full set of outside, inside, depth micrometers, dial gauge, dial test indicator. Has the main bearing tunnel been checked for truth, roundness, dimension? If it is out of whack then your machine shop needs to line bore it. You should for preference, use semi-finished main bearing shells and line bore them to tolerance to suit the crankshaft.

Thank you. I’ll rip it down tomorrow and inspect the damage ( if any ) and start from scratch. I have a micrometer and dial gauge. I appreciate the time you took to reply.

[Gippslander]

Check this out and read bottom of the page it may help.
Land Rover Series II IIA III 2.25L 3mb Petrol Engine Motor Overhaul Rebuild Kit | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Land-Rover-Series-II-IIA-III-2-25L-3mb-Petrol-Engine-Motor-Overhaul-Rebuild-Kit/264377879283?_trkparms=aid%3D1110001%26algo%3DSPLI CE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20190711095549%26meid%3D47 05edacf0be451f839b297a0e69d987%26pid%3D100047%26rk %3D2%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D254277113375%26itm%3D264377 879283%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100047.m2108)

Gippy[biggrin]

[theelms66]

You cannot "grind" the tangs off the bearings. You must get the right bearings and locating tangs. Otherwise you are risking engine failure.

[Kimsl70]

You cannot "grind" the tangs off the bearings. You must get the right bearings and locating tangs. Otherwise you are risking engine failure.

Cheers. It didn’t sound right when they suggested it either.

[1950landy]

Yes you can't just grind the locating tab off they are there to stop the bearing from spinning in the caps.
Are you fitting the same size bearings as came out if so the old bearings should be marked on the back if STD or what ever size they are over size, same as the new bearings should be marked.

[101RRS]

As mentioned above I rebuilt my 2.25 back in 1988. I had never built an engine before and just followed the instructions in the Haynes Manual I had at the time and it worked out quite well.

I last saw the Series 3 running around in 2014 - still on the engine so if everything is right these engines are not hard to do - my guess is from what you have described it is an issue with the bearings you got from Turners.

Was not an issue for me as you could get the bearings from anywhere back in 1988. I just took the crank to the local engine shop and told them to machine if needed and provide bearings to match which they did that day.

Good luck with it. Electronic ignition, extractors and a carb rebuild does wonders for these engines also - a mild shave on the head but not too much also helps a little too. My engine had been cooked and the head was a little warped so i had to have the shave - the resultant rebuilt engine went like a rocket and was incredibly reliable - had to be as it was my everyday driver at the time.

Garry

[steveG]

Just in case you have the urge, don't use loctite on the back of the bearings thinking it will prevent them spinning.
It has thickness and will squeeze the shells solid against the crank.
Not me and not a Landie but Yes, I've seen it done....

Steve

[Kimsl70]

Just in case you have the urge, don't use loctite on the back of the bearings thinking it will prevent them spinning.
It has thickness and will squeeze the shells solid against the crank.
Not me and not a Landie but Yes, I've seen it done....

Steve

Laughs hilariously ( slowly putting the red bottle away ). Thanks for the heads up I hadn’t gone down that particular avenue... but more from being lost than avoiding.

Thanks for the reply!!

[Kimsl70]

As mentioned above I rebuilt my 2.25 back in 1988. I had never built an engine before and just followed the instructions in the Haynes Manual I had at the time and it worked out quite well.

I last saw the Series 3 running around in 2014 - still on the engine so if everything is right these engines are not hard to do - my guess is from what you have described it is an issue with the bearings you got from Turners.

Was not an issue for me as you could get the bearings from anywhere back in 1988. I just took the crank to the local engine shop and told them to machine if needed and provide bearings to match which they did that day.

Good luck with it. Electronic ignition, extractors and a carb rebuild does wonders for these engines also - a mild shave on the head but not too much also helps a little too. My engine had been cooked and the head was a little warped so i had to have the shave - the resultant rebuilt engine went like a rocket and was incredibly reliable - had to be as it was my everyday driver at the time.

Garry


Cheers for that. You hit on a really good idea. I think I’ll contact the engine shop and see if they can help. You are right the issue I think is two fold. The bearings are probably the incorrect width ( my fault ) and the tab is in wrong side.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190821/6bda67f23981225ba90b2ce712295116.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190821/3957d83bfd322f3a7cd0dfbc89dee378.jpg

[1950landy]

Just a thought you havn't put the bottom bearingin the top & the top bearing in the caps. You also need to make sure the oil holes line up.

[Kimsl70]

Just a thought you havn't put the bottom bearingin the top & the top bearing in the caps. You also need to make sure the oil holes line up.

I’ll check today. Either way the tab is on the wrong side. Thanks again !!

[Geedublya]

I nice video describing the bottom end assembly process.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg9kjjJPg1w

[Kimsl70]

I checked the journal size ( fm rear forward 2.493//2.480//2.502 ).

Does this mean I need to get the crank ground down to the same size ? ,

I measured the old bearing versus the new and I think the bearings are issue. The float was good (0.002) but I had both thrust washers in there.

So my next question is where do I get bearing that have the tab on the correct side ?

[Gippslander]

I think you would be best to take the crankshaft to a machine shop for inspection and check of actual journal size including the conrod bearings. From what I read you have a 0.022” discrepancy and if that is the case something funny has been performed on the components in the past. In a normal situation I would not expect to see more than 0.0005” - 0.001” difference in any journals in a normal engine.

Gippy[smilebigeye]

[Kimsl70]

I think you would be best to take the crankshaft to a machine shop for inspection and check of actual journal size including the conrod bearings. From what I read you have a 0.022” discrepancy and if that is the case something funny has been performed on the components in the past. In a normal situation I would not expect to see more than 0.0005” - 0.001” difference in any journals in a normal engine.

Gippy[smilebigeye]

Thanks mate. I think I’ll bring doing that.

[Gippslander]

Here is a link that has workshop manual for engines it may not be your exact one but it is for Land Rover 2.25 petrol

Land_Rover_Series_III_Part_2.pdf - Google Drive (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aqBg_5pbHV4fF0kN3dS8Kakp2s2JCd6B/view)

worth a few minutes read.
Gippy

[101RRS]

Not quite following the issues with the tabs on the bearings on the wrong side - sorry to ask but is it an installer problem? Have to ask as I have not seen that aspect before - if the oil hole in the block etc line up with the holes etc in the bearings all should be good.

I have had trouble putting in bearings but these have always been operator error but then my bearing were the correct ones.

As suggested, you do need to get the crank journals checked and get bearings to match or if the journals are not right then these need to be ground and polished to match the next size bearings.

I hope it all works out.

Garry

[Kimsl70]

Not quite following the issues with the tabs on the bearings on the wrong side - sorry to ask but is it an installer problem? Have to ask as I have not seen that aspect before - if the oil hole in the block etc line up with the holes etc in the bearings all should be good.

I have had trouble putting in bearings but these have always been operator error but then my bearing were the correct ones.

As suggested, you do need to get the crank journals checked and get bearings to match or if the journals are not right then these need to be ground and polished to match the next size bearings.

I hope it all works out.

Garry

Fair question Garry. I posted a photo on here with the tabs. I’ve tried them a few ways, my guess is I’ve ordered the wrong ones. I’m going over the numbers now and I’ll attempt to order the right ones. Thank you for all your help mate. I appreciate it. I’m in no rush and as some said to me,’ it’s no race, just have fun with it’. I’ve learnt a heap so far, I’ll learn more I’m sure. It’s all part of the fun.

[Kimsl70]

Here is a link that has workshop manual for engines it may not be your exact one but it is for Land Rover 2.25 petrol

Land_Rover_Series_III_Part_2.pdf - Google Drive (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aqBg_5pbHV4fF0kN3dS8Kakp2s2JCd6B/view)

worth a few minutes read.
Gippy

Thank you mate. I’ll give a burl. I watched the video today and it was eye opening as to how much test and adjust went into it. I’ll definitely be taking my time when I reattack.

[Davfis]

Hi mate

Worth a try but be careful with lubing the bearings up with oil. Pretty sure the shells have to be clean and dry where they sit it the block. Just oil the crank shaft side of the bearing. Been caught out with it before

[gromit]

I just looked at some pictures of shell bearings for 3 bearing cranks and its a bit confusing.

Here the tangs on the bearings are on different sides but 4 are one side and two the other ?
https://www.allfourx4.com.au/epages/shop.sf/?Locale=en_AU&ObjectPath=/Shops/allfourx4/Products/RTC172920&ViewAction=ViewProductViaPortal&CAWELAID=720017010000001855&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=73831874040&CATCI=pla-434678443679&CATARGETID=720017010000111998&CADevice=c&gclid=CjwKCAjwkqPrBRA3EiwAKdtwk4rgYN7Rdzky92YcFZLt 4IQPDJsWwQ0zsoCM1-QVKx9HKjLRYTuztxoCMDkQAvD_BwE

I would have thought 3 & 3 or all 6 the same but I haven't replaced crankshaft shell bearings previously so not sure what's correct.

I looked elsewhere and all were on the same side ? But maybe they are using 'stock' photos and not of the real items. I noticed that in your pictures that they appeared different widths.

Did you fit the shells with the tangs in the wrong place ? If so the bearing would have been pushed against the crank pin causing it to tighten.
As mentioned, grinding the tangs off is a bad (potentially stupid) idea as they locate the shells radially & axially.

What were the numbers were on the back of the original shells, if they are undersized it's normally stated.

Possible solution......The parts manual shows that the front & centre shells are the same but the rear shells are a different part number. Maybe the picture in the link is correct ! Do you have the shell bearings mixed up ?

Best of luck,

Colin

[Blknight.aus]

Hi mate

Worth a try but be careful with lubing the bearings up with oil. Pretty sure the shells have to be clean and dry where they sit it the block. Just oil the crank shaft side of the bearing. Been caught out with it before

correct


I just looked at some pictures of shell bearings for 3 bearing cranks and its a bit confusing.

Here the tangs on the bearings are on different sides but 4 are one side and two the other ?
https://www.allfourx4.com.au/epages/shop.sf/?Locale=en_AU&ObjectPath=/Shops/allfourx4/Products/RTC172920&ViewAction=ViewProductViaPortal&CAWELAID=720017010000001855&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=73831874040&CATCI=pla-434678443679&CATARGETID=720017010000111998&CADevice=c&gclid=CjwKCAjwkqPrBRA3EiwAKdtwk4rgYN7Rdzky92YcFZLt 4IQPDJsWwQ0zsoCM1-QVKx9HKjLRYTuztxoCMDkQAvD_BwE

I would have thought 3 & 3 or all 6 the same but I haven't replaced crankshaft shell bearings previously so not sure what's correct.

I looked elsewhere and all were on the same side ? But maybe they are using 'stock' photos and not of the real items. I noticed that in your pictures that they appeared different widths.

Did you fit the shells with the tangs in the wrong place ? If so the bearing would have been pushed against the crank pin causing it to tighten.
As mentioned, grinding the tangs off is a bad (potentially stupid) idea as they locate the shells radially & axially.

What were the numbers were on the back of the original shells, if they are undersized it's normally stated.

Possible solution......The parts manual shows that the front & centre shells are the same but the rear shells are a different part number. Maybe the picture in the link is correct ! Do you have the shell bearings mixed up ?

Best of luck,

Colin

3 main crank?

the 1+3 bearing journals are the same and the center journal is different. the tangs are reversed. from memory the center bearing is larger in width and is set up to go with the thrust bearings

5 mains are all the same size.

[Kimsl70]

G’day all. So as it turns out the bearing were wrong. However they don’t make my bearing anymore. So the nice folk at Turner suggested TD5 bearing. Which work a treat. Thank you for all your help, suggestions and guidance. I really appreciate it.

[101RRS]

I hope you used plastigauge to measure the clearance between crankshaft and bearings to ensure the gap was correct. [thumbsupbig]

Garry