Mann Hummel Provent 200 filter replacement, cleaning and after market options

[twr7cx]

In April 2017 I installed the Mann Hummel Provent 200 on my D2a TD5. It’s therefore probably been on for around 35,000km of driving. The last few weeks it’s leaking oil residue on the outter casing:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190822/f5d3406895441e1846df26a13a906502.jpg

Reading the Installation and Maintenance Manual < https://oe-products.mann-hummel.com/fileadmin/user_upload/kataloge/kataloge-wartungsanleitungen-mann%2Bhummel/kurbelgehauseentlueftung/ProVent_en.pdf >, on page 21 at 5.4 Troubleshooting:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190822/d76dab4162afb94021d0a00ab3b2302e.jpg

I’ve check the unit including valves and seals and all seems fine. The other suggestion is the maintenance which is just replacing the oil filter element according to page 13 5 Maintenance:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190822/8931d0f7f09754b57e7ba745e73e9df3.jpg

From what I’ve read online the filters are indicated to last between 20,000 to 40,000km (which I’m getting towards the upper end of) after which the clogging can cause increased pressure which causes the integrated pressure relief valve in the lid to open up and release the excess pressure which can cause the oil on the external of the unit.
Curious how long others have gotten out of there filters?

New genuine Mann Hummel filters look to be around $80.00. Alternatively there are aftermarket knocks offs and a stainless steel mesh screen type.

There’s some discussion online about cleaning and reusing them. Anyone had any success doing so? On some other online forums some have mentioned doing this using degreased and/or petrol, and stretching the filter out to 100,000km.

[Tombie]

I’ve been trialing a stainless mesh replacement in the lads D2 with decent results.

Whilst I’m sure it isn’t as effective as the genuine units it’s doing a great job. Happy with what I’m seeing (not seeing) in the manifold.

[twr7cx]

I’ve been trialing a stainless mesh replacement in the lads D2 with decent results.

Whilst I’m sure it isn’t as effective as the genuine units it’s doing a great job. Happy with what I’m seeing (not seeing) in the manifold.

Glad to hear that. One they’re more price friendly as like only 20% of the cost of the genuine replacement filters and two I like the idea of washing and reusing rather than sending it off to land fill...

Even at not quiet as effective it’s still then likely much better than no ProVent fitted.

[twr7cx]

Ordered, received and attempted to try an eBay Stainless Steel filter. Couldn't close the cap on the unit with it fitted. Pulled it back out to compare with the original and the reasoning is obvious - it's taller by about 6mm which is why it's fouling the lid from closing:

154185154186


Relating to this, of interest to others may be the thread at https://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/267495-provent-200-a.html?267495=#post2867875 especially the linked UNSEALED 4X4 Issue 57 e-magazine that has an article comparing the different offerings.


And Provent Results, and just how much better TD5 oil filters are. (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/151258-provent-results-just-how-much-better-td5-oil-filters.html)


The left-most TD5 datum had not yet reached steady-state oil saturation. However you can basically see that provent elements in Td5s should last a very long time, as there is almost no pressure drop increase over time.

Thankfully at 35,000km out of the filter I'm getting a longer life than some others are reporting only 12,000km. I still don't understand why the filters have such a very high cost price to them. The PK Ranger that I fitted one to at the same time seems to be still going without issue.

[PhilipA]

I think it's Western Filters in sydney have a knock off of the original at a much cheaper price.

Being a cheapskate I bought a knock off 100 with stainless filter then bought a knock off fabric filter which fitted the knock off 100 perfectly. I emptied the hose today and about 1/5 cup came out after about 7KK.
Regards PhilipA
PS my inlet manifold was dead dry last week when I changed the FPR. The photos should be still there back a few postings.

[CraigE]

I’ve been trialing a stainless mesh replacement in the lads D2 with decent results.

Whilst I’m sure it isn’t as effective as the genuine units it’s doing a great job. Happy with what I’m seeing (not seeing) in the manifold.

I have one in mine, but will go back to a standard filter. Ben an engineer over here in the West did quite and exhaustive study on the various filters and in the end the standard filter was the best. I think he tested 4 or 5 filters including the ss mesh. His reasoning and results were quite sound and tested in University conditions. Cant remember whether it was discussed on here, but he actually wrote a paper on it, will see if I can find it, just cant remember if here or AULRO FB or Defender FB page. Post his report we actually had quite an in depth on line conversation about them.
Cheers
CraigE

[PhilipA]

Yes it was discussed but IMHO he went a bit overboard.

I recall he tested a 100 Provent and clones to 200CFM which they were never designed for.

At 100 they were fine but at 200 very restrictive.
If they were designed for 100 why test to 200?

His report was valuable in that it tested mesh and paper, and found the paper restrictive but effective and the mesh not very restrictive but much less effective in % of vapour caught.

Regards PhilipA

[Tombie]

I agree - I read Bens work - but it’s (the mesh) removing more than enough that the intake is remaining clean and dry. As it is an improvement above and beyond the original set up, and it’s set and forget - it’s staying [emoji41]

[twr7cx]

I fitted a ProVent 200 to a Ford Ranger PK 3L ute at the same time. The utes done almost twice the km as my D2a Td5 and the original filter is still going. Might be a sign of the level of oil blow by in my Td5.

[Tombie]

I fitted a ProVent 200 to a Ford Ranger PK 3L ute at the same time. The utes done almost twice the km as my D2a Td5 and the original filter is still going. Might be a sign of the level of oil blow by in my Td5.

More a sign of the more effective internal oil separating system.

[onebob]

More a sign of the more effective internal oil separating system.

...... or a defective Crankcase Depression Valve aka the “engine breather” that is fitted into Td5 turbo inlet hose.

[PhilipA]

I just changed back to a mesh filter as I found that my oil leaks became worse with the fabric filter.
I assume that this is because the crankcase pressure is greater with teh fabric filter. I washed it out at about 6KK but I think I will stick with the mesh.

Regards Philip A

[PhilipA]

I didn't know that the Provent and also the clones like mine have a depression valve in the lid.
I removed the lid today and there it was.
IMHO 2 depression valves are one too many, so I pried open the lid and removed the depression valve from it.
I replaced my depression valve sometime ago so I will see how it goes.
If you have a Provent , I recommend you remove one or the other valves. IMHO I would remove the Provent valve as AFAIK the specs are unknown.
Regards PhilipA

[Tombie]

I didn't know that the Provent and also the clones like mine have a depression valve in the lid.
I removed the lid today and there it was.
IMHO 2 depression valves are one too many, so I pried open the lid and removed the depression valve from it.
I replaced my depression valve sometime ago so I will see how it goes.
If you have a Provent , I recommend you remove one or the other valves. IMHO I would remove the Provent valve as AFAIK the specs are unknown.
Regards PhilipA

The Provent valve is aligned to its capacity.

The one on the intake is aligned to the engines original design - the very one you added a Provent to remove issues from.

Replace the intake one with a brass elbow and off you go.

Now you may still have too much pressure as you’re combining 2 unknowns.

[PhilipA]

Now you may still have too much pressure as you’re combining 2 unknowns.

I am afraid I cannot see it myself. With the steel filter there would be minimal resistance so IMHO the valve would just see it as it has always been.

I don't care which depression valve is removed , suit yourself.

But can you provide the specs of the Provent one? You know manifold depression for closing? Or for those who have clones, what the depression specs are for the clones?

The purpose of the post was to alert those who didn't know that there was an extra depression valve , like me before someone posted to look at the lid.
Regards PhilipA

[Tombie]

It’s in the bloody spec sheet.... and It’s been discussed in the endless threads on Provent unit’s.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191108/da659ed71ba06dec15adfdfc0b560b17.jpg

Several of us posted images showing installation.

***The one in the lid you removed - is a relief / bypass valve.
It’s there to open when the pressure between the filter element is too great.

The depression valve is in the side unit......

You’ve removed the wrong device!!!! [emoji12]

[PhilipA]

OK I have checked and the valve in the lid of my clone is definitely a depression valve.
So The Provent is different although my clone is of a 100 or Flash Lube job.
As you can see the exit to Manifold is in the centre 155457
The spring holds up the diaphragm, vacuum from the manifold pulls the diaphragm down into the centre hole.

Regards PhilipA
So if you have a genuine Provent 200 remove one of the valves, either the stock one or THE ONE ON THE SIDE.
EDIT AGAIN. The Provent 100 is the same as my clone the depression valve is in the lid. SOURCE Mann Hummel site.

[Tombie]

Thank you for clarification.

A portion of your problem is likely that the unit is undersized for that application.

The 100 size isn’t suitable for the TD5

[PhilipA]

Tombie, if you look on the net there are lots of places selling Provent 100Kits for engines bigger than 2.5 litres and with far higher outputs than a lowly TD5.
Besides , with a second battery, there is just no room for a 200. I posted pictures of my installation some time ago.
I do not have a problem with the filter at all. I just like to tinker and test things.
IMHO it is bad practice to have 2 versions of the same thing in one circuit, particularly if you don't know what the specs on the opening depression etc.
Regards PhilipA.

[Tombie]

That’s the difference between reading a product page and knowing how to work it out. The 100 isn’t suitable for the TD5, especially if you have excessive blow-by.

I can appreciate the tinkering, I can’t work out your logic for why 2 will be a problem - if they’re both working.

The fact you have problems with the correct filter media in place indicates a flow/capacity restriction.

[twr7cx]

Interesting read and I feel the need to throw my comments into the mix.

Firstly, before purchasing the ProVent 200 I looked into whether the smaller variants would be suitable as they physically would be much easier to mount in place in the D2 Td5 engine bay. Every piece of literature and guide I could find from the manufacturer concluded that the 200 was the smallest suitable for the Td5 engine and that was at stock standard power levels! Regardless of what the sellers are claiming it’s undersized for this application according to the manufacturer who actually did all the testing and development and so who should actually have knowledge (perhaps the reason why the sellers are giving you such bad advise is because they’re the type of sellers will to sell a rip off knock off product so don’t have any integrity themselves anyhow). So I have to agree with Tombie that you’ve fitted an undersized option. I’d therefore suggest that any issues you have with yours can’t be concluded to be the fault of the actual Mann Hummel design due to an undersized unit fitted in this application.

Secondly, you’ve purchased a knock off unit, not a genuine product. Any complications and issues your having are potentially because of this. I would imagine the quality control, materials and tolerances to be inferior. The specs for a genuine unit are not nearly applicable or relevant to yours - who knows. Aside from the fact that your supporting organisations/manufacturers that are blatantly ripping off the original product designers that put their time, effort and money in to its development. I’d therefore suggest that any issues you have with yours can’t be concluded to be the fault of the actual Mann Hummel design due to being a knock off unit.

Finally, you’ve made two big claims about the setups and how it should be in relation to the PCV/DCV that are polar to each other. You then went and pulled out the lids by pass valve, which as can be seen in the start of this thread with my case comes into effect when the filter is blocked up and not flowing, so is a good and necessary item to have. I’m not convinced that you have a true and accurate understanding of how it all operates together.
One of the big differences that you don’t seem to have noticed is that seperate to the Pressure Control Valve in the units lid (see item 1 in diagrams of 100, 150 and 200 units on pages 5 and 6 of https://oe-products.mann-hummel.com/fileadmin/user_upload/kataloge/kataloge-wartungsanleitungen-mann%2Bhummel/kurbelgehauseentlueftung/ProVent_en.pdf ), Mann Hummel describe the 100 and 150 as having a “Pressure relief valve/bypass valve” (see item 4 in diagrams of 100 and 150 on pages 5 and 6 of https://oe-products.mann-hummel.com/fileadmin/user_upload/kataloge/kataloge-wartungsanleitungen-mann%2Bhummel/kurbelgehauseentlueftung/ProVent_en.pdf ) vs the 200 which they list as having a “Pressure control valve” 9ref item 11 of the diagram of the 200 on the same pages 5 and 6 of https://oe-products.mann-hummel.com/fileadmin/user_upload/kataloge/kataloge-wartungsanleitungen-mann%2Bhummel/kurbelgehauseentlueftung/ProVent_en.pdf ). There’s key differences in that wording and as the labels are in the same description legend it shows a careful decision by Mann Hummel in differing the wording - presumably due to a different way of functioning.
Personally I’ve found through my use over 30,000km of a correctly sized genuine Mann Hummel 200 unit with a brass elbow replacing the factory Land Rover valve in the air intake it all operates perfectly well. I’d suggest that leaving the factory valve is unlikely to cause any issues but would possibly cause a minor reduction of times where the crankcase can vent.

If your happy with your setup, then great, but be careful making claims about ProVents or the 200 model that others might come along later and read and be influenced by later when yours is neither a ProVent but a knock off copy of unknown specifications or quality and neither a 200 that is the correct size for the Td5.

[PhilipA]

Finally, you’ve made two big claims about the setups and how it should be in relation to the PCV/DCV that are polar to each other. You then went and pulled out the lids by pass valve, which as can be seen in the start of this thread with my case comes into effect when the filter is blocked up and not flowing, so is a good and necessary item to have. I’m not convinced that you have a true and accurate understanding of how it all operates together.


No Twrx7 you don't seem to understand the Provent 100 specifications.

The Provent 100 and clones thereof are opposite to the 200. The depression valve is in the lid and the bypass valve is on the side of the body.
To be clear .THERE ARE 2 valves. ONE DEPESSION VALVE UNDER THE LID AND BYPASS VALVE IN THE SIDE.

The fact that the bypass valve has never activated suggests to me that the flow is sufficient.

Second, I cannot find anywhere the depression specifications of a Provent 100 or 200. At what manifold depression do they activate compared to the standard depression valve? Is it much higher therefore useless or is it much lower therefore increasing crankcase pressure or what?

Surely the LR fitted and designed valve is correct for the engine.

It seems to me that those who run 2 depression valves or only the Provent valve don't have a clue about what the effect is. So I suggest that perhaps you should do some testing with vacuum gauges etc to see what is really happening.

I am also touched by your concern for Mann Hummel. If they choose to price so high and make a **** design with the 100 which needs some ridiculous plumbing , having the inlet pipe as part of the mount, they deserve all the copies they get. I would have bought a 100 if it had the same inlet and outlet setup as the clones.

Regards Philip A

BTW I have not "taken advice " from Shonky sellers. some of the sellers like Western Filters are filtration specialists , and they do kits for trucks etc and do Provent 100 kits for larger engines than TD5s, where they have invested in engineered bracketry and sell for fabulous sums. I think you can be sure they would soon withdraw the product if they had numerous complaints.

[twr7cx]

No Twrx7 you don't seem to understand the Provent 100 specifications.

The Provent 100 and clones thereof are opposite to the 200. The depression valve is in the lid and the bypass valve is on the side of the body.

I won't get involved in debating the difference or how they work as I don't much care for the ProVent 100 specifications. As outlined above it's undersized for Td5 application therefore it's specifications are irrelevant and don't concern me.



I am also touched by your concern for Mann Hummel. If they choose to price so high and make a **** design with the 100 which needs some ridiculous plumbing , having the inlet pipe as part of the mount, they deserve all the copies they get. I would have bought a 100 if it had the same inlet and outlet setup as the clones.

BTW I have not "taken advice " from Shonky sellers. some of the sellers like Western Filters are filtration specialists , and they do kits for trucks etc and do Provent 100 kits for larger engines than TD5s, where they have invested in engineered bracketry and sell for fabulous sums. I think you can be sure they would soon withdraw the product if they had numerous complaints.

I'm not sure what you do for work, or did if your retired, but based on your shared views above I'd assume it wasn't a role where you were rewarded for your original ideas and efforts... I can't say I like your view that if you disagree with the price it's ok to support blatant rip off frauds. The Mann Hummel product is priced accordingly likely due to the research and development costs associated with getting it to the market - when you look at the cost of the replacement filters it shows that the original purchase price is actually not that much more than a filter cost. Compared to other competing brands that have significantly worse performance results despite often equal or higher pricing. Then there's the fact that the company has to offset there financial losses from those that support dodgy rip off products through the sales of their genuine units...

Interesting that you bring Western Filters up as an authority for the use and application of the ProVent 100 on the Td5. Firstly, they only sell genuine Mann Hummel products so wouldn't have recommended a 100 clone at all. Secondly, why would you trust their advise over the actual manufacturers who designed, developed and tested the product and advises that it's undersized. It seems like picking and choosing to achieve your desired result. If your happy with it, best of luck to you.

[PhilipA]

OK lets agree to disagree.
I am happy as my inlet manifold is quite dry. I have posted photos a couple of months ago.

In any case we are really arguing about something that is really not that important in the running of the engine as long as the EGR is deleted.
Without the catch can you may have to clean the intercooler once every 5 years. It's just such a PITA in a D2 to do that I wanted to avoid it.

Regards PhilipA

[onebob]

I won't get involved in debating the difference or how they work as I don't much care for the ProVent 100 specifications. As outlined above it's undersized for Td5 application therefore it's specifications are irrelevant and don't concern me.




I'm not sure what you do for work, or did if your retired, but based on your shared views above I'd assume it wasn't a role where you were rewarded for your original ideas and efforts... I can't say I like your view that if you disagree with the price it's ok to support blatant rip off frauds. The Mann Hummel product is priced accordingly likely due to the research and development costs associated with getting it to the market - when you look at the cost of the replacement filters it shows that the original purchase price is actually not that much more than a filter cost. Compared to other competing brands that have significantly worse performance results despite often equal or higher pricing. Then there's the fact that the company has to offset there financial losses from those that support dodgy rip off products through the sales of their genuine units...

Interesting that you bring Western Filters up as an authority for the use and application of the ProVent 100 on the Td5. Firstly, they only sell genuine Mann Hummel products so wouldn't have recommended a 100 clone at all. Secondly, why would you trust their advise over the actual manufacturers who designed, developed and tested the product and advises that it's undersized. It seems like picking and choosing to achieve your desired result. If your happy with it, best of luck to you.

Whilst desiring not to fan the flames .... I feel the need to set the record straight. A stock Td5 produces a maximum of 90kw at 4200rpm and the PROVENT 100 that I researched and recently installed is indicated in the Mann Hummel’s own specifications as being suitable for my application ie for engines up to 100kW and nobody drives at the redline 100% of the time.
It is the correct specification for a stock Td5, and M&H clearly say so.
Peace.
NB: I ditched the stock depression valve and substituted a brass elbow so there was full time draw on the crankcase.

155621

[Tombie]

Whilst desiring not to fan the flames .... I feel the need to set the record straight. A stock Td5 produces a maximum of 90kw at 4200rpm and the PROVENT 100 that I researched and recently installed is indicated in the Mann Hummel’s own specifications as being suitable for my application ie for engines up to 100kW and nobody drives at the redline 100% of the time.
It is the correct specification for a stock Td5, and M&H clearly say so.
Peace.
NB: I ditched the stock depression valve and substituted a brass elbow so there was full time draw on the crankcase.

155621

Bob,

See on the left - Reference value. Not limit.
The line below is far more relevant.

[onebob]

Bob,

See on the left - Reference value. Not limit.
The line below is far more relevant.

Yes, it’s not a limit. [emoji6] but notice it’s not “undersized” as was suggested in an earlier post.

[Tombie]

Yes, it’s not a limit. [emoji6] but notice it’s not “undersized” as was suggested in an earlier post.

For the blow-by volume it (P100) is undersized..... the Kw rating is worded as very clearly indicative, not Up to. Crankcase flow is the needed measure.

For a Discovery it is even undersize by kW

And for a tuned (any) TD5 it very much so is.

Put in the simplest terms - the Provent 200 is the correct unit for a TD5, especially with a tune. The Provent 100 is completely unsuitable, even for a brand new run-in TD5 with almost zero wear.

This is reality, and will eventually lead to those pesky leaks etc due to crankcase pressure.

[onebob]

For the blow-by volume it (P100) is undersized..... the Kw rating is worded as very clearly indicative, not Up to. Crankcase flow is the needed measure.

For a Discovery it is even undersize by kW

And for a tuned (any) TD5 it very much so is.

Put in the simplest terms - the Provent 200 is the correct unit for a TD5, especially with a tune. The Provent 100 is completely unsuitable, even for a brand new run-in TD5 with almost zero wear.

This is reality, and will eventually lead to those pesky leaks etc due to crankcase pressure.

Thanks, all understood, but consider this statement:- “figures quoted in Mann & Hummel’s German produced documents are intended for industrial applications ( the original purpose of the product ) ie stationary engines that run at constant maximum power output and therefore maximum engine blow by. These conditions are not relevant when applied to 4WD vehicles.” [source flashlube products/catch can pro]

My install...
155650