VB Air Suspension and Anti Roll Bars

[fatnold]

Just finished installing VB Air Suspension on my 110. Very impressed for the most part. Does what it says on the box so suits my needs perfectly. While the magic carpet ride is very nice the body roll is 'unpleasant' to say the least.

Firstly - anyone else running VB Air Suspension? Any experience with uprating the ARB's?

ARB's - bigger is better???
(I once had a D1 with 35mm ARB's that had a hydraulic cylinder at one end and a valving system with a pendulum that stiffened the ARB's the more lean there was. Magic....until the body mounts started cracking from all the extra force.... I digress.)

I'm concerned if I opt for heavy duty ARB's without disconnects that the Auto-Leveling function of the VB Air system may not work so well as heavy ARB's may not flex enough to level up at a camp site. (110 is a Poptop camper. I of the justifications for the VB system)

ARB mounting point is usually spaced down to avoid inverting on a lifted Defender, it seems 1" spacer is recommended for a 2" lift etc. What about when you have variable height????? I can have the equiv of a 2" lift or be below standard ride height. Should ARB mounts be spaced??

I'm not super concerned regarding reduced articulation. I have 3 x ATB diffs, it's a 2015 Puma so has traction control so i figure i can get away with a wheel in the air if i have to.

I can find Terrafirma Heavy Duty Anti Roll Bars, 25.4 front and 25.4 or 28mm rear. I can find a couple of systems based off a half shaft and locking hub. Any other Heavy Duty/ Uprated ARB's out there to suit a 110?

[W&KO]

Good timing...although I already have airbag man rears in and contemplating converting the front

Thanks for the detailed feedback on the install

[fatnold]

Thanks for the detailed feedback on the install
I can be a little slow on the uptake....was that sarcasm??? Happy to answer any questions. I did take a few photos of things along the way so can share if anyone is interested.

[W&KO]

I can be a little slow on the uptake....was that sarcasm??? Happy to answer any questions. I did take a few photos of things along the way so can share if anyone is interested.

Nope, really keen to see how it performs. I wasn’t aware of this system when I started out.

I won’t be going the fancy controller, manual for all four corners.

Did you have to adjust the steering stops, I’m running +20 rim and the tyres touch the shocks. Thinking it would be worse with OEM Offset.

[steveG]

I can't help with a ARB recommendation, but keen to see what you end up with, and for more info on the VB kit you put in. I haven't come across them previously.
I've been planning bags all round for my 120 - firestone bags and probably accuair controller but interested in what else is around these days.

Steve

[AK83]

Interesting.

Q.
How much(if you don't mind me asking)
How easy to install .. ie are there any weirdo sensors required, and other strange stuff?
Is it electronic as in it requires an ECU powered vehicle.

How you measured or noticed any difference in articlulation(say during install)?
more? .. less? .. roughly close enough to the same?

[fatnold]

Did you have to adjust the steering stops, I’m running +20 rim and the tyres touch the shocks. Thinking it would be worse with OEM Offset.
I haven't checked thoroughly at full lock at each end of shock stroke but does not hit front shock on full lock at normal height. (stock offset. no spacers)

[W&KO]

I haven't checked thoroughly at full lock at each end of shock stroke but does not hit front shock on full lock at normal height. (stock offset. no spacers)

That’s good

[fatnold]

......., and for more info on the VB kit you put in. I haven't come across them previously.
Check out the info here > https://www.vbairsuspension.com/upload/File/Productbladen/Engels/Landrover/721105160111EN07-%20EN%20Product%20sheet%20VB-FA%204C%20Front-%20and%20Rearaxle%20Landrover%20Defender.pdf
Through their local distro > VB Air Suspension - Capital Special Vehicles (https://www.csv.com.au/distributors/vb-air-suspenshion)

[fatnold]

Interesting.

Q.
How much(if you don't mind me asking)
How easy to install .. ie are there any weirdo sensors required, and other strange stuff?
Is it electronic as in it requires an ECU powered vehicle.

How you measured or noticed any difference in articlulation(say during install)?
more? .. less? .. roughly close enough to the same?
Are you sitting down......AUS$11500 (incl GST) (+ $1500 fitting in Melbourne if you don't want to do it yourself). I tried numerous VB Air distributors around the world while the German and UK guys were around 70% of that price landed their distribution agreement constrains them to their given territory and as such cannot sell to where ever they please. Also, kit is supposed to be installed by one of their distributors and not sold just as a kit. This is primarily due to compliance laws (TUV) as the kit is fully engineered and certified in Europe. And in the end, I wanted local support AND the initial software load is dealer password protected. Seems like but in reality it is a fully developed and comprehensive kit including calibration tools and documentation specifically for the Defender supplied by a large company that does this as their business. You really get what you pay for I think.

Relatively easy to install. Some jobs are a pain. Removing front shocks and towers as an example and running the wiring loom and hosing. Nothing any worse than that. There are height sensors on each corner and in my case, a level sensor for auto leveling (optional). You need to pick up power, accessory power and the speed signal. You need to connect a laptop to it which involves installing a piece of software and a driver, you then need to upload the contents of the ECU and send off to VB in The Netherlands, you then need to download the program for your individual vehicle. This is where the distributor/ dealer comes in. The download is password protected and only a dealer can access. So in my case i set up a remote session on my laptop and dealer logged in via my PC and did the download. He stepped me through the calibration while he was connected. 30 mins max.

It is electronic. It has its own ECU and associated software, diagnostics and calibration. It has a wired remote keypad. I also installed the option Emergency Air kit which basically allows you to pump up/ down the individual air bags manually should you wish or should the system $hit itself.

Haven't put the articulation to the test really. Driven about 1000k's so far mainly tar with some dirt road sections.

So very happy. Defender sits level now despite an excess of weight on the LH side. I had a perfectly level nights sleep without scouring the surrounds for a big rock or log for under a wheel. BUT need to improve (reduce/ control) the body roll when carrying a little bit of weight.

[AK83]

Thanks for that info.

One of the other questions I was going to subsequently ask .. more so for your purposes.
If the system is ECU operated, then there must be a way for the ECU to respond to a turn(assuming an accelerometer) taking into account vehicle speed.

Considering that it's auto levelling, couldn't imagine that it'd be hard for the manufacturer to tweak the response of the system to counter the excessive roll you're trying to alleviate.
Have to asked the question to the distributor or manufacturer?
If they can provide an uploadble solution, saves you needing to muck about with more anti rollbars and suchlike.

Also, I've been doing more and more reading up on poly bushes for a long while now .. not so much to make a choice, more so to find out as much info as I can.
I fitted them to my RRC some 20+ years ago, and loved them then, and have no problems with the few I've fitted to my D1(shocks, stg damper, panhard, and whatever else).
I won't install anything else, except if I 'had too'. Can't stand the usual suspension bush design, and fitting the split type Nolathanes is the easiest peasiest job .. so I've already made my choice.
But I still do more searching about more info/products/feedback(even tho I know what I'm going to do).
No rush, suspension in good nik, have some bits, still need to get some other bits.

But, I've read many posts where people have replied that poly bushes had ruined their ride, made it too firm, less articulation .... none of which I ever found in my RRC.
I only experienced much more durability(close to infinite in my case), and ease of fitment(not needing a press to fit them).

Could this be another option for you to combat the roll/sway issue you now have.
Maybe search up for those poly bushes that many folks complain about with the harder ride/reduced roll .. etc. and maybe fit them in place of your rubber suspension bushes.
The likelyhood is that at some point in the future those rubber bushes will need replacing anyhow ..

FWIW: back with my '79RRC, I reckon I'd go though a set of front radius arm bushes and the rear chassis mounted trailing arm bush every year, without fail.
But I was a high klm user back then .. min 70K, a few times 100K in a year.
Had to do those bushes so many times, I really should have got a hold of a 20T press to make life easier on myself .. I just used a local shop that used to do it cheaply for me.
(one other product I did try tho before the polys was back then the Rangie Spares modified chassis end trailing arm bush. That one lasted at least 2x what the original did, but still did wear out too.)

Anyhow, after maybe at least 4 or 5 sets in as many years(or close to it) .. I had to look around, and I was told of Nolathanes poly bushes.
Thought anything had to be worth a try, and when I saw the split bush - metal tube design, I was sold!
No time to fit, and just for the hell of it, after I fitted them I removed one front radius arm to be sure they were as easy as they seemed! [thumbsupbig]
Ended up doing 200-300K klms on that set with no issues, and most of that was gravel/dirt type roads central aus.
So durability for me was without a question infinitely better. RRC was completely rusted to high heaven, un reg, 650k klms, needed too much work to keep it .. so was eventually got rid of.
So technically those Nolathanes outlasted me!

Therefore, just thinking of a different approach to your current issue .. poly bushes(to start with), if they can't help .. maybe then look at stiffer rollbars or shocks or whatever.

[W&KO]

Thanks for the additional paperwork info.....

Now I just have to decide if I swap the front over to airbag man.

[fatnold]

Thanks for that info.

One of the other questions I was going to subsequently ask .. more so for your purposes.
If the system is ECU operated, then there must be a way for the ECU to respond to a turn(assuming an accelerometer) taking into account vehicle speed.

Considering that it's auto levelling, couldn't imagine that it'd be hard for the manufacturer to tweak the response of the system to counter the excessive roll you're trying to alleviate.
Have to asked the question to the distributor or manufacturer?
If they can provide an uploadble solution, saves you needing to muck about with more anti rollbars and suchlike.

The system isn't that sophisticated. It doesn't respond that quickly. It rechecks the height sensors and makes a correction every 8secs so no real use for combating roll on normal corners/ round-abouts/ changing direction. There are no accelerometers in the system. The Auto-Leveling option (and subsequent sensor) are there purely to level when stationery.

I had also read somewhere else about the duro of the sway bar bushes so your post has got me thinking that could be my first port of call. :twobeers:

[steveG]

What ARB's have you currently got installed?
Since you have a 110, I'm wondering if the ones off a 130 might be heavier, or perhaps from a D2?

Steve

[fatnold]

What ARB's have you currently got installed?
Steve

Stock. So about 20mm front, 16mm rear.

[Baytown]

Let’s bring this thread back to life with owners experience 2 years later.
‘I’m really interested in this option for my 110 2012 (tel:110 2012) LS3 powered vehicle fitted with ARB BP 51 shocks and HD springs.

I take it for granted that upgrading my anti roll bars to reduce body roll in covering at road speed will be required.

Has Off Road ability suffered and if so, in what area? Articulation only?

Have any other people who were considering this option fitted the same kit from VB or other kits such as Air Bag Man etc?

Thoughts and experience?

[Baytown]

Wow, there’s a fair bit to it.

I’m not sure how it would go with my upgraded alloy Radius arms from Superior Engineering and the plastic air bag seats are a bit of a concern for heavy duty use.

‘This currently is more of a ‘scoping the technology and others experiences’ with the modification especially after one members experiences and advice re his 130’s ride after fitment of another manufacturers solution.

Defender Air Suspension kit - YouTube (https://youtu.be/iujYDuuctUU)

[Baytown]

As above, Grizzly and Bears install of the Air Bag Man solution in their World traveller 130 camper and initial impressions.

Very positive.
Land Rover Defender FULL AIR suspension system! An epic upgrade. Coil spring replacement! (Ep193) - YouTube (https://youtu.be/klgfJ3rNWG8)

[fatnold]

I went with the VB system as I felt that the kit had been thouroughly engineered and refined and was not just some bits bolted on to fit. ( no reflection on the Airbag Man kit as I don’t have any knowledge of what development work has gone into that system)The VB kit was designed specifically for the Defender by a large company that supplies air suspension systems to VW and Mercedes. Also for heavy vehicles. The kit has full TUV approval ( not that this means anything in Australia) and is well proven.
The airbag ‘pistons’ have vehicle specific shapes to create the desired spring rate and ramp up characteristics. Plastic (acetal or similar would be my guess) is standard for this component even on heavy vehicles so I have zero concerns about the durability. I have, however, had to get the left front shock mount rewelded (and now gussetted) 3 times.
Airticulation is not reduced in anyway by the air suspension ( in fact with the Koni Raid shocks it has increased due to extra droop. ( which causes its own set of issues). I am a bit top heavy with a Mulgo Poptop so have fitted a HD rear anti-roll bar. (20mm Elbach) This definitely saps the articulation but because i have ATB’s alround I can lose some articulation and still be able to ‘proceed’. I have removed the rear anti- roll bar for trails with a lot of cross axle action though just to make life easier for the old girl. Only takes 10mins.
I do get some tyre rub on front shock on full articulation with the Koni Raid shocks. The solution is spaced bump stops but i need every last mm i can get when i drop the air out of the system to put the defender into my garage so will live with the occasional buzzing of the shock.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Sorry for making a tangent to this thread.

Back in 2013 I purchased an AccuAir elevel kit from the US for my Defender 6x6 so the rear axles could load share. Subsequently I was informed the eLevel ECU (AA-EC4) that came with the kit did not meet Au regulations and I had to acquire the AA-EC4-AUS ECU. I acquired the -AUS ECU from AirBagMan who also supplied the front axle kits. The AA-EC4-AUS came with instructions to modify my US harness to match the -AUS ECU. In the ensuing years I have lost those instructions, AccuAir US went into Chapter 11 bankruptcy and was purchased by another company without all the records and Air Bag Man no longer deals with AccuAir. I have contacted numerous vendors in Aus and the USA who mention the AA-EC4-AUS ECU on websites but none, including AccuAir, are able to provide the information I need.

I NOW HAVE A PROBLEM. [bawl]

The AA-EC4-AUS requires an interlock signal from the e-brake (hand brake) to prevent height changes while the vehicle is in motion. This wire is coloured BLUE in the -AUS harness.

While a technical schematic would be useful, all I really need is an image of the back of the 16pin plug in the -AUS ECU.

If anyone knows of someone who has the AccuAir eLevel system with AA-EC4-AUS ECU in any vehicle in Australia an image of their plug back would be great.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Look what I just found on the Air Ride Suspension Supplies website

193231

Lets hope this is the correct one. [biggrin]

[MLD]

i run ABM ECU which is a firestone product. the interlock on the firestone ECU is a ground wire on the handbrake. pull handbrake, grounds signal, allows user change of height. while naughty, i simply grounded that wire and bypassed the interlock. The ECU has height and speed parameters in its setting so even if i was to manually change height, when the parameters are exceeded, the ECU returns the ride height to the hwy setting. Or if outside the parameters, the height will not change. I set my parameters as 20kph for entry height and 60kph for lifted. That allows me to punt around the carpark if clearance is tight and 60kph is about the max you can drive on a rough fire trail. if i can drive faster than 60 kph on a dirt road, it's likely a logging trail and in pretty good condtion to be in hwy height mode. Only limitation i found in my settings is the Simpson desert when you sometimes need speed for the ascent but the ECU starts to exhaust to hwy height part way up a sand dune. Long and short, ground the wire and see it it bypasses the interlock.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

i run ABM ECU which is a firestone product. the interlock on the firestone ECU is a ground wire on the handbrake. pull handbrake, grounds signal, allows user change of height. while naughty, i simply grounded that wire and bypassed the interlock. The ECU has height and speed parameters in its setting so even if i was to manually change height, <snip text>. Long and short, ground the wire and see it it bypasses the interlock. Does using the hand brake switch interfere with the dash warning lamp?

I've had the current system on the shelf in the shed for around 10 years without fitting it. As far as I can see, the AccuAir eLevel system doesn't have any speed sensors, at least there are no speed sensors external to the ECU, I guess I'll find out more as the vehicle is completed. From what I know about AccuAir from TV shows like Kindig Customs and others is that they can lower the vehicle and drive on what ever height they choose. The AUS ECU prevents the height changing while in motion (although it would be good if I could lower the vehicle at 100kph for a moment to go through the M5 toll gates in Sydney, the prices go up to the truck rate with more than 2 axles and height over 2m, just because I'm a cheapskate [bigwhistle] )

In our case we probably want to raise the vehicle for off-road obstacles and not have it drop mid traverse. I know that my D4 will lower uncommanded around 40kph

I won't be bypassing the interlock until the whole vehicle is compliance certified (first registration in Australia after import)

The good thing is that Air Ride Supplies in Vic have been very helpful this morning and well acquainted with the AccuAir products.

[MLD]

The hand brake switch grounds to the body. The fluid level in brake reservoir is on same circuit. It won’t mess with your warning light.

the ABM ecu has an accelerometer built in the ECU. Also has level to horizon (digital spirit level) built in. Whether accu-air offers these features, you will have to do your own research.

you would be able to change the settings n your D4. Its just a number in a table in the software. Getting access to the software is outside my pay grade.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Wow, shocked.

Was talking to an engineer yesterday, he has just given me an estimate of $7,000.00 for engineering of my Defender-RB 6x6.

His justifications:

Each modification requires individual engineering i.e. perentie 6x6/RFSV rear disk brake hubs/rotors/calipers/mountings use of the 4BD1-T
Accuair e-level air suspension
$4,000.00 for the day of a track for track testing


Probably not going to use that engineer.

[MLD]

Wow, shocked.

Was talking to an engineer yesterday, he has just given me an estimate of $7,000.00 for engineering of my Defender-RB 6x6.

His justifications:

Each modification requires individual engineering i.e. perentie 6x6/RFSV rear disk brake hubs/rotors/calipers/mountings use of the 4BD1-T
Accuair e-level air suspension
$4,000.00 for the day of a track for track testing


Probably not going to use that engineer.

any mod to suspension will require a swerve test these days. Check your registration status. if it is NBx you are in ADR80 (small truck) instead of ADR79 (light vehicle). Might make a difference to whether you need a swerve test and the benchmark for compliance. Worth asking the engineer if all the testing still needs doing if ADR80.

I upgraded my classification to NB1 with a 3850kg GVM. Truck compliance is easier than light vehicle. I didn't have to do a swerve test. My engineer at the time (now retired) was a HV compliance engineer and had designed air suspensions systems for HV so was confident in what he was signing off on.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

any mod to suspension will require a swerve test these days. Check your registration status. if it is NBx you are in ADR80 (small truck) instead of ADR79 (light vehicle). Might make a difference to whether you need a swerve test and the benchmark for compliance. Worth asking the engineer if all the testing still needs doing if ADR80.

I upgraded my classification to NB1 with a 3850kg GVM. Truck compliance is easier than light vehicle. I didn't have to do a swerve test. My engineer at the time (now retired) was a HV compliance engineer and had designed air suspensions systems for HV so was confident in what he was signing off on.

Sorry for the delay, life and flu gets in the way. The current GVM (actually GVW according to the UK ID plate) is 4700kg but I'm hoping to reduce it to 4495kg to avoid the 3 axle spacing issues under NHVR. (Remembering this is testing for first registration in Australia, so the vehicle hasn't yet been classified.)

Other advice lately is to get the Au compliance testing done with the original coil suspension and avoid the swerve testing. Have enough issues with the V8 to 4BD1-T and Isuzu MSA-5Sx2 conversions.