Defender Puma 130 Head Gasket, Head & Turbo Failure

[clive22]

Hi All

Gotta say I am pretty miffed at the whole defender experience.
I have a 2012 Defender 130, dual cab. 88,000 kms on the clock.
Had 4 weeks long service leave booked, 3 days in the engine over heated.
It was towed to Dubbo Land Rover, a faulty thermostat was diagnosed & replaced.

It was using a fair amount of fuel 15 Litres/100km @ a steady 100 km/hr loaded but not too much <600kg estimated.
It was alos using a bit of oil over 1 litre a 1000 km.

154333

Continued on our way overheated again. 3 hours drive in.
Pulled the pin and drove it back to Melbourne slowly watching the temp all the way. Using BAS phone app guage, dash gauge is too normalized.
Still overheated a couple of times. I know wrong thing to do. But I would have had to pay for a tow, accommodation and regional air fares
and transfers, so it was a gamble as to further damage. We had been sitting around in hotels for a week and everyone wanted to go home by now.

Anyway it is back at the mechanics and the head and been removed and it has been hardness tested and is below the minimum parameter so need a new head, the turbo is also stuffed
with a lot of axial play in the shaft & oil leaks.

I was running a BAS 170 tune. But I am pretty gentle with it.

It been overheated twice before a faulty leaking OE radiator and again with an leaky oil cooler. Warranty both times.

I have authorized the mechanic to get the thing all fixed as the vehicle is very useful to us.

Am I just unlucky? Is the earlier overheating episodes a major contributor to the the cause this time?
Do the turbo's fail much on these?
I thought the motors in these where reasonably reliable, but a few failures but not excessive amounts?

I want to keep it as it is set up for us, but these failures are difficult to tolerate.

Clive

[1nando]

The 2.4 does seem to be a little more susceptible to cooling and head issues compared to the 2.2 going by reports.

What's it costing to fix?

[clive22]

Somewhere around 11k as an early estimate

[1nando]

Somewhere around 11k as an early estimateMate I had a alive tune and a mountain of mods. I believe that running a tune you need to free up exhaust flow. It helps keep egts under control and let's the motor breath easier. My theory is that running hotter egts over time is what has probably caused the head gasket to go on your vehicle and some others that are pushed hard when in standard tune.

If you get a minute read through this: Puma 2.2 Egt's (https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaulro%2Ecom%2Fafvb%2 Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D243318&share_tid=243318&share_fid=669&share_type=t&link_source=app)

It's a lot of decent info and money spent to get that information and back it up with factual numbers (and the egt gauge set up is in the most accurate location; upstream of turbo), so the numbers are as accurate as can be!

[alien]

Mate I had a alive tune and a mountain of mods. I believe that running a tune you need to free up exhaust flow. It helps keep egts under control and let's the motor breath easier. My theory is that running hotter egts over time is what has probably caused the head gasket to go on your vehicle and some others that are pushed hard when in standard tune.

If you get a minute read through this: Puma 2.2 Egt's (https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaulro%2Ecom%2Fafvb%2 Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D243318&share_tid=243318&share_fid=669&share_type=t&link_source=app)

It's a lot of decent info and money spent to get that information and back it up with factual numbers (and the egt gauge set up in the most accurate location; upstream of turbo), so the numbers are as accurate as can be!
Any chance of a link that doesn’t require tapatalk?

[1nando]

Any chance of a link that doesn’t require tapatalk?https://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/243318-puma-2-2-egts.html?243318=#post2613116

Hopefully this works.

[alien]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/243318-puma-2-2-egts.html?243318=#post2613116

Hopefully this works.
Link works, time for a read. Thank you.

[Tins]

Somewhere around 11k as an early estimate

11k? Have a chat with Glenn ( Grinna1965 ). He puts the Ranger 3.2 into Puma Deefers. Of course it won't be cheaper, but it might be better. Worth a look.

3.2L Ford Ranger Engine in a Land Rover Defender!!!!!! - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJaiQ4WWx3c&feature=youtu.be)

[Robmacca]

The 2.4 does seem to be a little more susceptible to cooling and head issues compared to the 2.2 going by reports.

What's it costing to fix?

being a 2012 model isn't that more likely to the be the 2.2 and not the 2.4?

[clive22]

It’s the 2.2. Early one

[1nando]

being a 2012 model isn't that more likely to the be the 2.2 and not the 2.4?I waa under the impression early 2012 models were 2.4 and later 2012 models 2.2.

[alien]

I waa under the impression early 2012 models were 2.4 and later 2012 models 2.2.
Ours is a 2011 and a MY12, it’s one of the first of the 2.2’s also hence my interest in this thread.

[1nando]

Ours is a 2011 and a MY12, it’s one of the first of the 2.2’s also hence my interest in this thread.Find any useful info in the egt thread?

[alien]

Find any useful info in the egt thread?
Need time to take it all in but looks interesting after reading the first page and few of the updates. I’m runnning the EGT probe in the bung as I didn’t want it breaking off and going through the turbo when away on a trip, interestingly all our work trucks(Cummins/Cat/Mack) have the probe post turbo too. As I tow also I’m thinking an intercooler upgrade but don’t want to play with fuel settings. Need to work out the best way to get live reading from my Nanocom too and work out the base readings for future diagnostics if required.

[1nando]

Need time to take it all in but looks interesting after reading the first page and few of the updates. I’m runnning the EGT probe in the bung as I didn’t want it breaking off and going through the turbo when away on a trip, interestingly all our work trucks(Cummins/Cat/Mack) have the probe post turbo too. As I tow also I’m thinking an intercooler upgrade but don’t want to play with fuel settings. Need to work out the best way to get live reading from my Nanocom too and work out the base readings for future diagnostics if required.The technology used to manufacture probes today is awesome, the chances of it breaking would be close to non existent. Ian from thermoguard industries and his website are excellent resources.

What I found interesting was the coolant temp and how it followed egt. This is vital because coolant temp always lags behind egts, my coolant temp was excellent, some people report higher coolant temps in standard trim and my theory is that running these engines hard in standard trim or tuned is a recipe for potential head issues.
If towing I would 100% recommend a more efficient IC and free up the exhaust flow in your standard exhaust. These 2 mods would be top of my list if towing, running heavy or pushing the vehicle hard.

The other simple thing to ensure is that you do not have lights, or light bars obstructing radiator air flow. Even some bullbars aren't great for radiator air flow.

[clive22]

Reading the why stuff, sound like I need more real time monitoring and get lowering mods. So I have the inter cooler.
Will need a egt gauge, free flowing exhaust (cat delete at least by the sounds of it maybe larger). A real time water level monitor needs to be spec Ed and installed.
Some research required
By the way the 3.2 sounds great but I’ll live with the2.2fornow
I think I’ll detune to 150 hp for a while until I am sure about egts

[1nando]

Reading the why stuff, sound like I need more real time monitoring and get lowering mods. So I have the inter cooler.
Will need a egt gauge, free flowing exhaust (cat delete at least by the sounds of it maybe larger). A real time water level monitor needs to be spec Ed and installed.
Some research required
By the way the 3.2 sounds great but I’ll live with the2.2fornow
I think I’ll detune to 150 hp for a while until I am sure about egtsDo a CAT delete; some people will crap on about the legalities associated with this mod so do this at your own risk [emoji6]. Also get rid of centre muffler. Keep the rear little resonator right at the end of the vehicle to keep drive drone down.

Going to the 150hp tune is a good idea. When Bruce Davis did my alive tune I did not get the highest HP tune but rather a mild tune just to help improve low down torque and driveability.

I also got rid of the heat shield around my turbo. Did this help? I do not know for certain but I feel as though less heat around the turbo made for cooler operating temps. The theory makes sense but can't back that statement up with factual data from before and after removal so take this as you wish.

One other consideration: the coolant lids have been known to leak. I always kept 2-3 spare in my rear draw in case.

[big harold]

It’s the 2.2. Early one
Clive, I have 2 Defenders both 2.2.
BAS 170 tune with BAS intercooler, 2.5" mandrel cat delete exhaust EGT fitted pre turbo.
Ancillary gauges fitted to monitor engine.
It is very easy to overheat engine even in standard trim easiest way is 6th gear with a slight grade @ 2000rpm engine temp rises in relation to EGT.
Quickest way to cool down is change back to 5th and instant drop in EGT.
These things run extreem EGT's with 900Deg common.
I now drive mine on EGT readings.
I am having a set of pistons ceramic coated to see if this helps.
Mark

[1nando]

Clive, I have 2 Defenders both 2.2.
BAS 170 tune with BAS intercooler, 2.5" mandrel cat delete exhaust EGT fitted pre turbo.
Ancillary gauges fitted to monitor engine.
It is very easy to overheat engine even in standard trim easiest way is 6th gear with a slight grade @ 2000rpm engine temp rises in relation to EGT.
Quickest way to cool down is change back to 5th and instant drop in EGT.
These things run extreem EGT's with 900Deg common.
I now drive mine on EGT readings.
I am having a set of pistons ceramic coated to see if this helps.
MarkMark, I never in my 4 years of ownership saw anywhere near 900. North of 750 is not good.

If you're getting or have seen 900 its the BAS tune, it has to be. If you read my thread about egts (my probe was also in the exhaust manifold pre turbo) I never got near that figure, and mine was heavy and heavily modified. Not even fully loaded on 35 + degree days on 33s up long hills where I'd intentionally push to see what is the highest reading I could get did I see 900

[clive22]

Hi all.
I will be Fitting a get gauge - redarc it’s looks like at the moment.
Cat delete exhaust. Alisport have one.
Engine will be derated to 150hp.
I always was conscious of popping it down a cog, to limit egt temps. Not enough it seems, not that I can tell as I didn’t Install the gauge in the first instance.
Clive

[big harold]

Mark, I never in my 4 years of ownership saw anywhere near 900. North of 750 is not good.

If you're getting or have seen 900 its the BAS tune, it has to be. If you read my thread about egts (my probe was also in the exhaust manifold pre turbo) I never got near that figure, and mine was heavy and heavily modified. Not even fully loaded on 35 + degree days on 33s up long hills where I'd intentionally push to see what is the highest reading I could get did I see 900

I am able to get to 900 without the BAS tune.
Don't get me wrong it doesn't sit there all day but with your foot into it it will get there remarkably quickly.
I contacted BAS and it was common place apparently.
My EGT is pre turbo in the flange the turbo bolts to. it is also very accurate and responsive to temp change.
I will be installing one to my other 2.2 in the near future so I will be able to compare.
Mark

[1nando]

I am able to get to 900 without the BAS tune.
Don't get me wrong it doesn't sit there all day but with your foot into it it will get there remarkably quickly.
I contacted BAS and it was common place apparently.
My EGT is pre turbo in the flange the turbo bolts to. it is also very accurate and responsive to temp change.
I will be installing one to my other 2.2 in the near future so I will be able to compare.
MarkYou can clearly see that mine was in the exhaust manifold.

Again, even tuned never saw anywhere near 900. And yes I drive it hard and pushed it hard. In saying that I had done a bunch on mods that may have helped reduce my egts. Egr delete, cat delete, bigger cooler, removed best shield around turbo, provent 200 oil air separator etc. How much these helped I don't know but the recipe worked well for consistent egt temp control
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190922/a33389ba4b80e31877b20f3304c84835.jpg

[clive22]

Hi Nando

Is that a 1/4" Tap into the exhaust manifold for the pyrometer?

Did you weld in any stiffening to accommodate the tap hole? or just drill through the manifold?

A Little bit concerned about creating a stress riser around the probe.

Where did you get your decat pipe from, if you don't mind me asking.


Thanks

Clive

[1nando]

Hi Nando

Is that a 1/4" Tap into the exhaust manifold for the pyrometer? Yes

Did you weld in any stiffening to accommodate the tap hole? or just drill through the manifold? Not necessary, just still through. Ward at Graeme cooper did my install

A Little bit concerned about creating a stress riser around the probe. Not an issue

Where did you get your decat pipe from, if you don't mind me asking. Bruce Davis performance. It was part of my Alive tune package along with the intercooler.


Thanks

Clive

Hi mate, please see my responses above next to your questions.

[big harold]

You can clearly see that mine was in the exhaust manifold.

Again, even tuned never saw anywhere near 900. And yes I drive it hard and pushed it hard. In saying that I had done a bunch on mods that may have helped reduce my egts. Egr delete, cat delete, bigger cooler, removed best shield around turbo, provent 200 oil air separator etc. How much these helped I don't know but the recipe worked well for consistent egt temp control
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190922/a33389ba4b80e31877b20f3304c84835.jpg
I have my EGT probe in exactly the same place as yours.
I have 170 BAS tune including BAS intercooler.
Cat delete, heat shield removed along with centre muffler. The EGR is turned off in the tune.
My boost goes to about 25psi.
It is well documented that common rail diesels run higher EGT's

What is your boost reading??
What EGT gauge do you run Digital?

[1nando]

I have my EGT probe in exactly the same place as yours.
I have 170 BAS tune including BAS intercooler.
Cat delete, heat shield removed along with centre muffler. The EGR is turned off in the tune.
My boost goes to about 25psi.
It is well documented that common rail diesels run higher EGT's

What is your boost reading??
What EGT gauge do you run Digital?I can not remember 100% what my boost reading was but I think it was around 22-23psi.

I had the egr off and also blanked. Blanking makes no difference really but I asked for this to be done.

The probe and display were purchased from Thermoguard industries. Ian supplies excellent australian made gear, he is also a world of knowledge.

I agree about modern diesels running hot. This problem in particular is what gave the zd30 it's "grenade" nick name, able to achieve 800-900 degrees in standard trim when pushed hard.

I am convinced that the high performance tunes that people get are what kill the puma engine. I know that the Alive cooler reduced intake temps dramatically in combination with the decat dump pipe, and obviously egts

Judging by our similar mods, the OP's issue and your input in regards to your readings I think the 170hp BAS tune may run a little hot when pushed in Australia. My personal opinion is that a mild tune with complementary mods can produce a very relaible and safe EGT result.

Out of curiosity Harold did you read my egt thread? Curious to get your input on the numbers documented and your thoughts

Also keen to know what your water temps are when running greater than 700 degree egts? Water temp will be lagging slightly behind the egt readings but should climb. In my thread I made reference to water temps at certain egt readings

[big harold]

I can get to 900 deg on the standard tune.
I will say that the EGT drops as fast as it rises.
The normal coolant temp is around 90 deg but climbs if high EGT's are present.
I could easily overheat if I wanted to.
As I said previous I now drive of the EGT temps.
Does your EGT rise and fall quickly.
My son has a dial EGT gauge and it is no where near as responsive.
Mark

[1nando]

I can get to 900 deg on the standard tune.
I will say that the EGT drops as fast as it rises.
The normal coolant temp is around 90 deg but climbs if high EGT's are present.
I could easily overheat if I wanted to.
As I said previous I now drive of the EGT temps.
Does your EGT rise and fall quickly.
My son has a dial EGT gauge and it is no where near as responsive.
Mark

Apologies Mark, called you Harold. sorry mate.


Yes it did fall quiet quickly and rise quiet quickly.

As mentioned never saw close to 900 on standard tune, never more than 700ish if I recall correctly.

My gauge was digital.

[Colmoore]

I had a 2010 110 2.4 a few years back with a 150 custom BAS remap and the Alisport intercooler. Pete from BAS told me the IC upgrade was imperative for the remap. The remap also deleted the EGR.
My fuel economy improved and the performance was great. I set her up for overlanding and we towed a camper trailer - all up weighing in at 5.3t.
We set off on a 12 month big lap had only done around 15k kms (total k’s on car were around 90k) when the turbo started to over boost by 70%! She was a slug off the line, then went like a rocket once turbo got on boost- a bit like powerband really [emoji51].
Got the turbo on diagnostics and found it likely that one/some of the variable fins had been damaged, possibly by coke deposits letting go after the EGR delete (?) The turbo now had a lot of bearing slop/rattle and had to go.
I put a 2nd hand one on that I got from TR spares in Radelaide so we could continue our round Oz trip with minimal budget loss.
She went well for the remaining 30k kms and was still going well when I sold her.

Things I learned:
Intercooler upgrade is a must and I would have done the radiator as well if it was in the budget.
: get the manifold etc cleaned after EGR delete.
: CAT cooks your turbo - get rid of it.
: low coolant alarm in the overflow bottle can save a lot of headaches
: I don’t believe exhaust upgrade is necessary but deleting the mid muffler makes the floor under the rear passengers bare feet bearable; good with dyna mat.

I am mostly a stay home dad now, with stuff all income and will be for another 18 months, so I’ve gone back to a mostly stock td5 130. I de catted it, got rid of EGR and that’s about it.
The running costs are a lot lower, I’ve not broken anything major and I’ve mostly fixed things myself under instruction from Greg at Get It Automotive at Tuggerah. I highly recommend him to all.
I couldn’t afford to keep the puma, though I do miss her, she was really nicely setup.

Btw I think the Ranger engine swap is north of $20k and then you’d need to upgrade the whole driveline to cope. I’d love to do it but [emoji389][emoji389][emoji389]

[clive22]

I have also put this in the BAS review thread. Tese two threads have merged really, but this nearly concludes this episode with my truck



Hi all


I have my 130 back from the shop a few days now and have a done a few drives. Mostly 50-100 kms in rolling terrain, low air temps - high teens, unladen.
The REDARC gauge mounted in the dash in a nice instrument, monitoring boost and EGTs.

The pyrometer is installed in the manifold upstream of the Turbo like nando (thanks nando).
The gauge reacts quickly to boost and temp changes, the mode is set as 700 centigrade whereupon the entire gauge flashes red (it's lcd) and beeps a warning.

The exhaust to the centre muffler was changed to a CAT delete pipe supplied by Bruce Davis. An extra bracket was added to improve support and stop rattling.

The head is new the exhaust is new. The radiator was flushed. Flow down 30% on a 3 year old replacement radiator!!, accordingly to the guys who did it.

The inlet manifold was cleaned out as it was clogged with oil residue caused by leaking, failing turbo

The inter cooler is BAS. It was cleaned out as part of the engine works.

Driving with the 170 hp BAS tunes in the upper Yarra ranges with large throttle openings it was not too difficult to push the EGT's over 700.
Just take it through the gears or holding speed on large throttle openings up to 90-100 km/h, ~5% gradient hills and it shot through 700 pretty quick.
Backing off dropped temps as quickly. I was trying generate heat, a bit, but not too much

I planned to de-tune it originally after the rebuild so flashed in the 150 tune and drove it again the next day, a cooler day by 5-8 degrees. Temps driving similarly seemed to top out around 650.

Early days yet and I will play keep further notes.

Limited data so far suggest the 170 may overheat the engine.

My 130 is fairly heavy with winches, bull-bars drawers, roof rack, fridges, etc. Be 2500-2700 kg rolling I reckon.

Another observation was really could not notice much difference in performance between the old and new configuration, ie the decat pipe made little difference
to the acceleration. Little to no difference in exhaust noise, bit more turbo whistle, as I did not delete the center muffler as I dislike noisy exhausts

Clive

[1nando]

I have also put this in the BAS review thread. Tese two threads have merged really, but this nearly concludes this episode with my truck



Hi all


I have my 130 back from the shop a few days now and have a done a few drives. Mostly 50-100 kms in rolling terrain, low air temps - high teens, unladen.
The REDARC gauge mounted in the dash in a nice instrument, monitoring boost and EGTs.

The pyrometer is installed in the manifold upstream of the Turbo like nando (thanks nando).
The gauge reacts quickly to boost and temp changes, the mode is set as 700 centigrade whereupon the entire gauge flashes red (it's lcd) and beeps a warning.

The exhaust to the centre muffler was changed to a CAT delete pipe supplied by Bruce Davis. An extra bracket was added to improve support and stop rattling.

The head is new the exhaust is new. The radiator was flushed. Flow down 30% on a 3 year old replacement radiator!!, accordingly to the guys who did it.

The inlet manifold was cleaned out as it was clogged with oil residue caused by leaking, failing turbo

The inter cooler is BAS. It was cleaned out as part of the engine works.

Driving with the 170 hp BAS tunes in the upper Yarra ranges with large throttle openings it was not too difficult to push the EGT's over 700.
Just take it through the gears or holding speed on large throttle openings up to 90-100 km/h, ~5% gradient hills and it shot through 700 pretty quick.
Backing off dropped temps as quickly. I was trying generate heat, a bit, but not too much

I planned to de-tune it originally after the rebuild so flashed in the 150 tune and drove it again the next day, a cooler day by 5-8 degrees. Temps driving similarly seemed to top out around 650.

Early days yet and I will play keep further notes.

Limited data so far suggest the 170 may overheat the engine.

My 130 is fairly heavy with winches, bull-bars drawers, roof rack, fridges, etc. Be 2500-2700 kg rolling I reckon.

Another observation was really could not notice much difference in performance between the old and new configuration, ie the decat pipe made little difference
to the acceleration. Little to no difference in exhaust noise, bit more turbo whistle, as I did not delete the center muffler as I dislike noisy exhausts

CliveGood to hear you've got your 130 sorted. I think you'll find the 150 tune much safer to drive on as you spend more time testing it and you'll spend less time looking at the egt gauge in time as a result. Peace of mind really

[clive22]

Hi

Looks like that will be the case and i'll be sticking with the 150 tune. To be honest I felt it was smoother and more pleasant to drive after trying the 150 & 170 back to back.
The 170 seems to feel up a bit lumpy over about 2,500 rpm. This rev range was where the exhaust gas temps were spiking too

But really the truck is a tourer. The 150 works fine for the normal driving and the reliability and peace of mind is worth the loss
of performance

Clive