Towing on sand: opinions please

[mkalpokas@mac.com]

We are half way through our holiday on Fraser Island with our D4 towing an Ultimate camper (approximately 1.2 tonnes loaded). SUPER SOFT here with many (including us) getting bogged regularly - almost daily.
for the brain trust out there: we have about 80-100kg of “stuff” that can be packed in either the D4 or the camper. Assuming we have reasonable tow ball weight (about 10%), and we are certainly below GBM and GCM etc, where do you think is the best place to pack this stuff?
a) In the D4
b) In the camper behind the axle
c) In the camper in front of the axle?
I understand that it’s a ‘relatively’ small weight and unlikely to make a difference but in theory?....

thanks in in advance for all opinions,

cheers,
Mario

[discorevy]

put the extra stuff in the D4
you can safely go to 12 psi in the D4 and 15psi in the trailer for the soft stuff
keep momentum up and DSC off

[Tombie]

put the extra stuff in the D4
you can safely go to 12 psi in the D4 and 15psi in the trailer for the soft stuff
keep momentum up and DSC off

This!

What pressures are you currently running? (All 6)
What transfer ratio are you using (L or H)?
Are you remembering to turn off DSC every time you restart?
What Terrain Response setting are you using?

Cheers.

[mkalpokas@mac.com]

We have 18” rims with KO2’s running at 16 psi front and trailer and 18 psi rear D4.
Bit reluctant to drop further as there’s a lot of sidewalk sag already and having to use a fair bit (a lot) of momentum. DEFINITELY turning off the DSC and almost always using Sand mode. Problem is you have to follow the existing tracks and the depth of these means the D4 is often dragging it chassis on the sand so need more momentum. I’m using the 2nd position on Gordons height sensor rods so spending all my time in “normal’ level ie Offroad height. WAY too lumpy to go at speeds required at extended height.
Overall feel very envious of all the Toyotas etc with oversized tyres and 2-3 inch lifts! They are visibly sitting SO much higher apart from maybe their diffs so they drag much less sand.
At least we are comfortable when we aren’t bogged!

[Tombie]

Go lower, 12-14psi.

Avoid, Drop into Low Box.

You’re still dragging less at offroad height than their diffs. You should be able to be in Low at raised height and hold under 50km/h.

[Dagilmo]

We have 18” rims with KO2’s running at 16 psi front and trailer and 18 psi rear D4.
Bit reluctant to drop further as there’s a lot of sidewalk sag already and having to use a fair bit (a lot) of momentum. DEFINITELY turning off the DSC and almost always using Sand mode. Problem is you have to follow the existing tracks and the depth of these means the D4 is often dragging it chassis on the sand so need more momentum. I’m using the 2nd position on Gordons height sensor rods so spending all my time in “normal’ level ie Offroad height. WAY too lumpy to go at speeds required at extended height.
Overall feel very envious of all the Toyotas etc with oversized tyres and 2-3 inch lifts! They are visibly sitting SO much higher apart from maybe their diffs so they drag much less sand.
At least we are comfortable when we aren’t bogged!

Absolutely go lower with the tyre pressure!!!! I've had mine at 10 psi all round when it been really snotty on the beach. This was with 18"

[mkalpokas@mac.com]

Thanks for all your advice. Will go down even further with the pressures. So far found it easier to keep the revs up in low range and so more responsive when getting that sinking feeling.
BTW the Landrover mudflats: both useless and broken. Will definitely chase up Scott’s thread on home made variety.
cheers,
Mario

[scarry]

I have also found rock crawl works very well in soft sand.

And as others have said,that is with DSC off,tyres down low, good momentum,and at off road height.

[LRD414]

I don’t often find Sand mode that good in the situation you’re describing. Low range and no terrain response mode with dsc off, then resort to rock crawl if you get stuck. But really it sounds like you need at least 14/16psi or even slightly lower and then air up somewhat for extended runs on the harder sand. Not exactly the same sand but as an example; fully loaded up Big Red couldn’t quite crest at 16psi and then flew up easily at 14psi. I’ve had similar improvements from a 2-3psi drop on Moreton too.

Cheers,
Scott

[Xtreme]

As advised, get those pressures right and reduce/stop the wheel spin and resultant digging in.

[Tins]

Serious question, as I haven't towed on sand and don't know. What is the advantage of dropping pressures on the trailer? It won't wheelspin, it won't dig in. I would have thought that dropping pressure would simply increase rolling resistance and made things more difficult.

What am I missing?

[roverrescue]

Trailer tyre pressure reducing
Will reduce contact pressure

Mass stays the same
Reduced pressure increases surface area
So the pressure applied per square cm is reduced thereby trailer not sinking into soft sand as much or “floating” a little better over the sand

S

[Fausto79]

I get my D1 right down to 12psi on the beach. Tyres always look like the will pop out but never have. Some people I know have gone right down to 10. Should be ok. Just don’t wheel spin which I’m sure you won’t.

[cripesamighty]

I have taken my D1 tyres down to as low as 6 psi for a short time when I got myself stuck while not paying attention..... [bigwhistle][biggrin]

Slow, straight and steady and out she crawled. I'd prefer not try that again...

Thank the Land Rover God's (or their rim designers) for the ability of the tyre to stick to an OE rim at low pressures!

I've yet to bog the D3 in sand, so don't know how low I might need to go yet.

[shanegtr]

Serious question, as I haven't towed on sand and don't know. What is the advantage of dropping pressures on the trailer? It won't wheelspin, it won't dig in. I would have thought that dropping pressure would simply increase rolling resistance and made things more difficult.

What am I missing?

On sand reducing the pressure reduces the rolling resistance. Next time your on sand run with higher pressures and drop into neutral while travelling at speed - then repeat with lowered pressures. You'll find the vehicle rolls further before coming to a stop with the reduced tyre pressure. Its the same reason why its so much easier to drive on the sand with less tyre pressure

[mkalpokas@mac.com]

Well we are finally back on the beach with easy going. Dropped pressures to 12, 14, and 12 on the trailer.
Found an early soft patch- digging, maxtrax, advance 2 metres, dig, maxtrax, repeat till total progress maybe 6 metres in one hour. Fabulous exercise. Luckily some delightful travelers came along with a lifted Patrol and was able to snatch us to firmer sand some 30 metres further along. From there we probably overcompensated with momentum for the rest of the tracks from Waddy Point till we got to the beach south of Indian Head. Unbelievable that ANY car could survive that drive at about 30 km/hr with long stretches of deep wombat holes/moguls; many times front end smashing into the next mogul with literally waves of sand being thrown forward then over the bonnet, windscreen and rooftop. Just waiting for the low oil warning lights to start flashing or suddenly finding my gearbox stuck under the camper trailer.
Anyway, as soon as we got to the beach, just felt crazy happy; survived and apparently intact.
On review, I just cannot understand what was happening in the soft bit? “Seemed” no worse than patches we had got through previously but bizarrely as soon as we got to the end of each maxtrax, we had NOTHING! Tried low range sand mode DSC off, LR rock crawl DSC off, HR sand mode DSC off. All made zero difference (except the HR which stopped even sooner).
No question that part of the problem was always being bellied out even in extended off road, and no chance of not driving in the existing deep tracks because there was no room to move laterally.
All this despite going as light as possible ( removed 2nd and 3rd row seats, no roofrack, no drawers, only spare wheel inside the D4, and absolute minimum of food and water in the camper- tare weight about 960 kg with total added payload of approximately 150-200 kg).
In future, Fraser Island: Yes; Camper trailer: No; D4: ??????
Thanks again for all the feedback, it’s a brilliant resource to make sure you are not doing something really stupid!
Cheers,
Mario

[W&KO]

Which inland tracks were you towing on??

[Dagilmo]

Well we are finally back on the beach with easy going. Dropped pressures to 12, 14, and 12 on the trailer.
Found an early soft patch- digging, maxtrax, advance 2 metres, dig, maxtrax, repeat till total progress maybe 6 metres in one hour. Fabulous exercise. Luckily some delightful travelers came along with a lifted Patrol and was able to snatch us to firmer sand some 30 metres further along. From there we probably overcompensated with momentum for the rest of the tracks from Waddy Point till we got to the beach south of Indian Head. Unbelievable that ANY car could survive that drive at about 30 km/hr with long stretches of deep wombat holes/moguls; many times front end smashing into the next mogul with literally waves of sand being thrown forward then over the bonnet, windscreen and rooftop. Just waiting for the low oil warning lights to start flashing or suddenly finding my gearbox stuck under the camper trailer.
Anyway, as soon as we got to the beach, just felt crazy happy; survived and apparently intact.
On review, I just cannot understand what was happening in the soft bit? “Seemed” no worse than patches we had got through previously but bizarrely as soon as we got to the end of each maxtrax, we had NOTHING! Tried low range sand mode DSC off, LR rock crawl DSC off, HR sand mode DSC off. All made zero difference (except the HR which stopped even sooner).
No question that part of the problem was always being bellied out even in extended off road, and no chance of not driving in the existing deep tracks because there was no room to move laterally.
All this despite going as light as possible ( removed 2nd and 3rd row seats, no roofrack, no drawers, only spare wheel inside the D4, and absolute minimum of food and water in the camper- tare weight about 960 kg with total added payload of approximately 150-200 kg).
In future, Fraser Island: Yes; Camper trailer: No; D4: ??????
Thanks again for all the feedback, it’s a brilliant resource to make sure you are not doing something really stupid!
Cheers,
Mario

Thanks for the update. Glad you've 'survived'...

It all seems a bit odd (particularly your doubt about the D4 without a trailer for future trips), my old D3 (and no doubt new D4 will but just haven't got it out enough yet) went anywhere my brothers lifted 200 went. I've only been on Frazer once and it was in a Triton on a Mitsubishi promotional trip (we spent 3 days driving around the island) and there was nothing I saw that would worry a Discovery. Of course it's unfair to comment without being there (additionally the trailer adds a completely different level of complexity) and others with more experience will be along to give a more experienced comment. However, I wouldn't hesitate to take my Disco there.

One thing I would say thought. If I were doing only maxtrax length forward runs (bugger that!) my tyres would have gone lower than 12-14.

[101RRS]

No question that part of the problem was always being bellied out even in extended off road,

How did you get into extended mode?

You have been talking about how great the lifted vehicles worked - and clearly they have the ground clearance - your D4 will have performed similar to other unmodified vehicles so maybe you need to invest in LLAMS so you can to have the same ground clearance and the other lifted vehicles.

As you have found - if in doubt go to low range Rock Crawl as it mimicks an old traditional 4wd as it locks the centre diff and sends drive equally to the front and rear. Also remember when offroad the D3/D4 goes fine in low range - with 6 or 8 speeds, the car still goes fast enough in top gear without revving its head off and you are already in low range when needed.

Garry

[mkalpokas@mac.com]

Inland tracks were Kingfisher to Central Station, CS to Lake McKenzie,CS to Southern Lakes to Dilli and Eurong, Eurong to CS, CS to Eurong, Indian Head to Waddy, Waddy to Platypus Bay and return to Waddy, Indian Head, etc.
Concept of going lower on pressures is great but cannot work I believe because we were bottomed out already even in extended mode so a real issue was that further reduction of pressures would effectively be lifting the tyres off the road surface; as I said, we could ONLY drive in the existing very deep tracks. This left me contemplating that perhaps I would have done better increasing my pressures to give better contact with the track albeit at the expense of reduced surface area (increased pressure)??? Also, I think I didn’t properly explain myself regarding clearances when I was comparing to all the LIFTED Toyota’s/Rangers/Nissan’s etc. With Gordon’s suspension rods in position 2, and user selected off-road height I am at 240 clearance. Extended off-road gives me 290. These numbers are from sitting on a flat surface with the tyres at NORMAL pressures. When I drop my pressures to 12 and 14, I loose maybe 20-30mm of the above, say 210 and 260. Most of the “others” have taller tyres, average 2.5 - 3 inch lifts, and are sitting on pressures of 23 - 28 (I asked a lot). Given their out of the box clearance is about 230 (for a 200 series LC for example), this means their clearance is now 230 + 75 (lift) + whatever their taller Tyre gives them with much less loss of height because they are at significantly higher pressures. Yes their live rear (+\- front) axle and diff height will only be raised by the increase in wheel/Tyre height however the rest of their underbody will unlike the D4, NOT be dragging on the sand. I wish it were not so because I really love my D4.

Frustrated.

[mkalpokas@mac.com]

Sorry Garry I missed your first question about extended mode. With the rods in position 2, when user selects ‘off-road height’, I am at extended mode. Furthermore when already in this extended mode and bottomed out, by selecting ‘lower’ the sensors detect grouping and go to even higher level (asks you to press and hold the raise button with foot on the brake).
I would be EXTREMELY reluctant to go at any significant speed in these extended height modes and certainly would try to avoid full lock steering.
Cheers,
Mario

[LRD414]

Mario all I can say is that's very strange.

Are you sure the rods were set as explained and therefore your height was what you thought?
It's just that I've never seen anything close to what you've described and not heard it from other D4 owners I know who've been to Fraser this year.

But the advice re low pressures such as 12psi was really for soft beach sand etc not the inland tracks for which I would be up at 20psi.
Go down low pressure only for difficult bits and then back up for track work.

Regardless, a few difficulties in a couple of places on Fraser is such a small subset of where you'd travel/visit so would not be anywhere near enough to put me off the vehicle and go to a modify 200 series etc.

Cheers,
Scott

[mkalpokas@mac.com]

Thanks for that Scott. I agree, weird. Yes I am sure re the rods. Before fitting them I measured my 3 heights then repeated with the rods in each of the 3 possible positions.
Honestly I understand that the key problem was that we were (attempting) to tow a camper in very difficult conditions. All others towing that I spoke to were intermittently getting bogged with the bizarre exception of a Ford Ranger (lifted) that managed to tow a 5.8 m Cuddy cabin Stessl aluminium boat on a tandem trailer all the way into Waddy apparently without getting bogged once.
Probably the most disappointing experience for us was a trip we did from Waddy to Platypus Bay without the camper. No problem with the journey there or back except when we went to leave the beach at Platypus up through some very soft sand where we could not get a good run up and despite 3-4 attempts with various settings. In the end some helpful guys with a lifted Hilux went through in front of us then snatched us up the short rise. As I am sure you are aware, these relatively light weight utes (all raised etc) really revel in the sand.
Also you are right in saying a daily grind on Fraser in apparently difficult conditions should not put us off the Disco. We have still had a great adventure in a most beautiful location. Absolutely no regrets. Just a train of thought...
Your ideas on 20 psi for inland tracks, is that what you would use towing the camper or the solo D4?
I also wonder how much difference the MY11 makes. It means I have Terrain Response version 1 and I don’t have a rear diff lock. I know when I did an off-road drive course with Gordon, there was an MY11 with diff locks and an MY14 without diff locks but with the new TR software and the 8 speed gearbox. When doing some sand work Gordon set up a deliberately tricky section to demonstrate the differences between the 3 cars. The MY11 with lockers and the newer D4 without lockers but with the newer TR were both able to get up without hassle whereas mine could only succeed with a significant increase in momentum. All 3 were driving according to identical and very strict instructions from GG.
Hmmm.

[101RRS]

I am with Scott - something is not right.

I have been up on Fraser a few times in my old 1979 Subaru station wagon - it only had 13" rims and had no trouble driving all over Fraser - it had far less ground clearance and much smaller tyres than your D4.

While I have not had my RRS on Fraser it is more than a match for other brand wagons on the sand.

Ditch the rods, and get LLAMS and lower your tyre pressures. Dont be afraid to go full height to get over obstacles - I regularly go offroad plus 55mm to get over stuff but I always try not to use full steering lock and power to save the CVs but straight ahead on loose stuff without a lot of power is fine.

Garry

[discorevy]

also important is to make sure the trailer wheel track is very similar to the D4's otherwise your dragging an anchor

[veebs]

...and if you really want to, update the TR using an IID tool. My MY10 has the same TR as a MY16.5 :-)

[gavinwibrow]

...and if you really want to, update the TR using an IID tool. My MY10 has the same TR as a MY16.5 :-)

When I get home, expect a PM re this - I do recall your discussion with Tombie!

[DiscoMick]

Does sound a bit strange. I can't comment on the D4, but our standard height Defender has towed our Guardian camper, which is heavier than an Ultimate, on Straddy several times without getting bogged. I use high range second or maybe drop to first to get momentum. Stay in the wheel tracks others have compacted to follow. Tyres at 20, or if really soft dropped to 16. TR but no diff lock. Different vehicle, different tyre sizes. Interesting

[Tombie]

Does sound a bit strange. I can't comment on the D4, but our standard height Defender has towed our Guardian camper, which is heavier than an Ultimate, on Straddy several times without getting bogged. I use high range second or maybe drop to first to get momentum. Stay in the wheel tracks others have compacted to follow. Tyres at 20, or if really soft dropped to 16. TR but no diff lock. Different vehicle, different tyre sizes. Interesting

And different drivers [emoji41]

I’ve even had tyre brands / models bring me unstuck years ago. Went to Robe running Bridgestone ATs. Stuck every 10 meters.
Went back to tyre store, swapped for BFGs ATs back then in same size. Straight back to Robe, same pressures and not a single problem.

Sometimes the combination is just wrong when combined.